Guild Wars 2

I know most of us in this forum that haven’t been banned yet are enthusiastic dungeon runners that wants to help people out. I’ve seen some great posts such as Arah tour, Noob guild recruitment and people posting tips for fellow dungeon runners.

However all of our efforts to help new comers into dungeon and combat system (this is your job anet) only seem to make anet hate dungeon runners even more. In fact we have become vulnerable to potential party kicking at the final boss, some of us got banned for posting constructive criticism about any rewards, and absolutely no attention for the community.

In fact there isn’t even a plan to release a new dungeon or fix recent bugs

This issue is being looked into actively. No ETA yet.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Arah-P2-broken/first

And with the implementation of new combat system new players will be only used to pressing 1 for the win without knowledge of any other skills and crippled by anet’s levelgated methods which prevent them from using elite skills, as well as unnecessarily long and bugged trait lines that require many gold and skill points to be experimented.

In short, anet is expecting us, dungeon runners, to do their job at no cost and no benefits while ignoring us completely. And they are silencing us and ignoring as on every opportunity they can get. I think its time for veterans to actually take action and demand the attention we were deprived of for two years.

Ill help till im sick of helping. Usually on my 3-4th run of the night then I go play battlefield. Where i imagine all my victims are various staff guardians etc etc.

A bit more on topic

Meh what can we do? We like the game. We like helping. We like sharing knowledge. Sucks we are exploited but meh.

“We” doesnt have quotes but I cant be bothered

I’ll always help. However, I can’t help if I’m not in game. And as of today I won’t be in game for longer than it takes to send a few whispers and to keep up with my mail.

See yall on the flip side.

DonQuack.9025:

Ill help till im sick of helping. Usually on my 3-4th run of the night then I go play battlefield. Where i imagine all my victims are various staff guardians etc etc.

A bit more on topic

Meh what can we do? We like the game. We like helping. We like sharing knowledge. Sucks we are exploited but meh.

“We” doesnt have quotes but I cant be bothered

I like helping people too especially when I’m pugging dungeons such as Arah. People that try p2 and p3 usually need help at lupi so I tend to go in just for the Lupi kill and leave right after, or carry them through the end boss. However when I saw the “no fix ETA” I just lost it. And now Anet is literally asking us to babysit newcomers that only know how to spam 1 and kick people as to their liking… I don’t even want to know what would happen in 2 months when those people level their character to 80 and start dungeons

Anet devs don’t have the resolve to take hold of their game and commit to creating content that they personally believe will be impactful. That, or someone else is holding their balls with a vice-like grip.

As a result, they depend on metrics to see what content all the locusts of the game are flocking to. It obviously isn’t dungeons which is why we will never get new content our way.

The only way to counter this is for Anet to change their policies (fat chance), or players in general get more interested in dungeons (fat chance w/o any content development). In short, we are in a cycle of poop.

All we can do is constantly give new players the tools to help them have a positive experience in dungeons (pug and give advice, [noob], guide videos, dungeon tourney, etc.) So yes, we should still help.

All other mmo have poop combat system. So if any game devs want to rip off something from gw2, rip-off the combat system pleeeease. Create dungeons and I’ll migrate.

Edit: i can’t grammer

TheFamster.7806:

In fact there isn’t even a plan to release a new dungeon or fix recent bugs

This issue is being looked into actively. No ETA yet.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Arah-P2-broken/first

At this point you are being unfair. If they don’t know yet the cause of the bug it is only natural that they can’t say when it will be fixed.
The important fact is that they actively work on it.

@Lilith

hide spoiler

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’ll always help. However, I can’t help if I’m not in game. And as of today I won’t be in game for longer than it takes to send a few whispers and to keep up with my mail.

See yall on the flip side.

Sorry to see you go, but definitely understand.

Enjoy your freedom from this foul place

On topic:

I don’t play much these days. I’ve “left” the game since they don’t give two kittens about endgame, but hey, it’s free so I still jump on from time to time to chat with friends. But when I was more active, helping new players learn the ropes and practice was the only thing that really kept the game interesting. After running X dungeon 300 times, it’s fun to go back and play it with new players.

Think of Lupi. My regular group brings him down quickly with little to no challenge (except for me, I usually still get swiped—>AoE’d—>killed in phase 2 >.<). Then I run with new players and we have to chase his shadowsteps, split up and range, etc etc — actually think of ways to get past him as a group.

Most people on here seem to find that sort of Lupi fight annoying, but after months of smooth runs, it’s sorta refreshing to have to do a bit of work =)

dlonie.6547:

@Lilith

hide spoiler

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’ll always help. However, I can’t help if I’m not in game. And as of today I won’t be in game for longer than it takes to send a few whispers and to keep up with my mail.

See yall on the flip side.

Sorry to see you go, but definitely understand.

Enjoy your freedom from this foul place

On topic:

I don’t play much these days. I’ve “left” the game since they don’t give two kittens about endgame, but hey, it’s free so I still jump on from time to time to chat with friends. But when I was more active, helping new players learn the ropes and practice was the only thing that really kept the game interesting. After running X dungeon 300 times, it’s fun to go back and play it with new players.

Think of Lupi. My regular group brings him down quickly with little to no challenge (except for me, I usually still get swiped—>AoE’d—>killed in phase 2 >.<). Then I run with new players and we have to chase his shadowsteps, split up and range, etc etc — actually think of ways to get past him as a group.

Most people on here seem to find that sort of Lupi fight annoying, but after months of smooth runs, it’s sorta refreshing to have to do a bit of work =)

My guess is that we are letting ourselves get taken advantage of by anet like majority wvw and pvp playerbase. We receive no attention, hated by people because we are zerker elitists who finish dungeons faster than other people by using exploits such as stacking, proper dps rotation, sigil, runes, potions, etc, and still posting lots of guides and videos for few that are willing to learn/improve. And yet anet finds us too demanding and gives power to trolls so that we may get kicked regardless of situation without any compensation. GG anet

Tom Yzf.5872:

Anet devs don’t have the resolve to take hold of their game and commit to creating content that they personally believe will be impactful. That, or someone else is holding their balls with a vice-like grip.

anet release one of the worse leveling updates that was practically hated everywhere. I think the Chinese dont like the system either. I believe they shove it onto us because they do not want to maintain two different system. I think they have some resolve to make terrible changes

loseridoit.2756:

I think they have some resolve to make terrible changes

All is vain.

I’m a returning player after over a year, and I’ll share my insight. Compared to WoW dungeons, the dungeons in this game are confusing. In WoW, at least when I played, the dungeons were straight forward; you go in and kill stuff until you get to the boss. The bosses may have had a unique fight mechanic, but it was easy to figure out.

In this game, everything is a maze, and the dungeon runners are hostile. Most things can be skipped, bugged, or cheesed somehow, and there is so much backtracking. I knew all the tricks to each dungeon. Now, everyone does them different, and I’m a noob again. I have to relearn each one because everyone has a different cheese spot, or skips different things. I have played MMOs for 12 years, and I feel for new players who get called names, noob, or kicked because they haven’t run the path 100 times. How is anyone supposed to know to sneak past 50 mobs and hide in a corner, when the dungeons are not intended to be played that way? Then you get the guy with 12,000 achievement points getting kittened off because no one knows all his secret hiding spots, and it’s crystal clear why no one cares about dungeons anymore.

The next biggest problem, is everyone is speccing Berserker or similar damage gear, and going full damage traits. Then everyone dies in 3 hits. If you go support, you’re not wanted.

In summary, confusing and broken dungeons, together with a 2 year old player base hostile to newbies is why no one cares about dungeons anymore in this game.

KevinEvo.7061:

I’m a returning player after over a year, and I’ll share my insight. Compared to WoW dungeons, the dungeons in this game are confusing. In WoW, at least when I played, the dungeons were straight forward; you go in and kill stuff until you get to the boss. The bosses may have had a unique fight mechanic, but it was easy to figure out.

In this game, everything is a maze, and the dungeon runners are hostile. Most things can be skipped, bugged, or cheesed somehow, and there is so much backtracking. I knew all the tricks to each dungeon. Now, everyone does them different, and I’m a noob again. I have to relearn each one because everyone has a different cheese spot, or skips different things. I have played MMOs for 12 years, and I feel for new players who get called names, noob, or kicked because they haven’t run the path 100 times. How is anyone supposed to know to sneak past 50 mobs and hide in a corner, when the dungeons are not intended to be played that way? Then you get the guy with 12,000 achievement points getting kittened off because no one knows all his secret hiding spots, and it’s crystal clear why no one cares about dungeons anymore.

The next biggest problem, is everyone is speccing Berserker or similar damage gear, and going full damage traits. Then everyone dies in 3 hits. If you go support, you’re not wanted.

In summary, confusing and broken dungeons, together with a 2 year old player base hostile to newbies is why no one cares about dungeons anymore in this game.

Amin to that my brother,I am more or less in your situation,played the game since beta,quit 7 months ago and now I am back only to see everything changed and most pugs act like we are all supposed to know every single spot and skip.

I feel more or less ashamed when I see how Anet bashes the elitist zerkers,and then I see how the zerkers keep complaining they can’t take advantage of new players and noobs by selling..

There is this funny little feature in the game, called “chat”. When you join a group and you think they expect you to know the run you can just simply write something like “Hey guys I generally know this run, but I’ve been away from the game for a while so I may not know the latest tactics”.

If they kick you find a new group, if not you learn something and they know from the beginning of the dungeon that there may be parts in the dungeon that require explanation. The worst thing you can do is saying nothing at all or joining a group that explicitly looks for experienced players.

kokiman.2364:

There is this funny little feature in the game, called “chat”. When you join a group and you think they expect you to know the run you can just simply write something like “Hey guys I generally know this run, but I’ve been away from the game for a while so I may not know the latest tactics”.

If they kick you find a new group, if not you learn something and they know from the beginning of the dungeon that there may be parts in the dungeon that require explanation. The worst thing you can do is saying nothing at all or joining a group that explicitly looks for experienced players.

Its more of getting kicked at the end so that other people can invite their guildies/friends in for easy daily. I’m not even gonna go to selling arah paths, but these happen so much and even anet devs are tolerating any party kicks.

In my opinion, the dungeons are a bit too overwhelming for casual players. The jump in difficulty between the open world and dungeons is just so high that if you go in with 4 other newbies, you’ll likely get slaughtered over and over until everybody ragequits. (I remember reading this blog by someone who got GW2 and loved it at first… Until they hit level 30 and decided to try out Ascalon Catacombs Story. They were totally unprepared for the difficulty spike, and it really soured them on what had otherwise been a fantastic first few days in Tyria. They got through the dungeon in the end, but it was such a painful, frustrating experience that their reaction was “NEVER AGAIN!” rather than “Wow, that was a rush! Maybe next time we’ll do better.”)

And if you join an experienced group, odds are they’ll get annoyed with you when you don’t know what to skip/where to stack/what are the optimal skills to bring.

You can, of course, avoid this by posting stuff like “Newbie group. Need a teacher!” but then you’d better be prepared to wait a little while.

As you’ve noticed, the most efficient method of beating the dungeons is the zerker meta, and yes, that does tend to mean that people who play different types of builds are unwanted. That’s a deeper issue regarding game balance, I feel.

Dungeon survivability in this game is basically dodge, utility, and mechanics. If you’re dying in 3 hits, you may have miss a dodge, didn’t use proper utility such reflects, or was surprised by an unexpected mechanic. Also, prolonged fights are disadvantageous for berserker players.

Zaxares.5419:

As you’ve noticed, the most efficient method of beating the dungeons is the zerker meta, and yes, that does tend to mean that people who play different types of builds are unwanted. That’s a deeper issue regarding game balance, I feel.

The zerker meta is the most efficient way of going through dungeons when you have players who understand the type of build.
Running a pug group full of zerkers with some newbies will prove far more difficult than say a more toughness build.

Zerker is the way to go once you are used to your class and have run all the dungeons a couple of times.Getting a fresh new lvl 80 in zerker gear and throwing him in a dungeon with let’s say 2 more just like him,will prove to be a wipe fest.

Wait, Lilith is leaving?

Zaxares.5419:

As you’ve noticed, the most efficient method of beating the dungeons is the zerker meta, and yes, that does tend to mean that people who play different types of builds are unwanted. That’s a deeper issue regarding game balance, I feel.

I don’t mean to be rude, but the reason why the most efficient way to beat dungeon is zerker meta is because it rely on your ability and knowledge as a player rather than your stats to survive. This is how the game should be.

If you are talking about condition, I agree the 25 cap should be per player rather than total, making condi build viable, but should never be as strong or stronger than direct damage, but would still be good in certain situation with extremely high defense (lupicus, abomination)

We seen people killing lupicus without using any dodge, just tanking and healing, while 1 mistake in in zerker meta will kill you. Of course it will take only 50 seconds to kill him, instead of 3-5 minutes since the risk of wiping is much higher.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Wait, Lilith is leaving?

She already has.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Wait, Lilith is leaving?

She already has.

Get over it already

Ciucan.5092:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Wait, Lilith is leaving?

She already has.

Get over it already

What? He asked a question and I answered it.

It looks like it is someone else that has yet to get over something.

BHBs will be BHBs. I don’t think many of them understand how human relationships work :-/

Trice.4598:

I don’t mean to be rude, but the reason why the most efficient way to beat dungeon is zerker meta is because it rely on your ability and knowledge as a player rather than your stats to survive. This is how the game should be.

If you are talking about condition, I agree the 25 cap should be per player rather than total, making condi build viable, but should never be as strong or stronger than direct damage, but would still be good in certain situation with extremely high defense (lupicus, abomination)

Indeed. An experienced player who knows what to expect should always have an easier time than a newbie player, but I do still feel that the game is slanted more towards encounters where high DPS is the optimal solution. There’s not enough encounters where “you must have condition damage to beat this boss” or “this boss is basically a survival contest. Build yourself for tankiness/sustain so you can outlast the boss while environmental effects burn him down”.

That does mean that players who would rather play conditions/tank/support/control feel like there’s not enough content that appeals to their preferred playstyle.

KevinEvo.7061:

I’m a returning player after over a year, and I’ll share my insight. Compared to WoW dungeons, the dungeons in this game are confusing. In WoW, at least when I played, the dungeons were straight forward; you go in and kill stuff until you get to the boss. The bosses may have had a unique fight mechanic, but it was easy to figure out.

In this game, everything is a maze, and the dungeon runners are hostile. Most things can be skipped, bugged, or cheesed somehow, and there is so much backtracking. I knew all the tricks to each dungeon. Now, everyone does them different, and I’m a noob again. I have to relearn each one because everyone has a different cheese spot, or skips different things. I have played MMOs for 12 years, and I feel for new players who get called names, noob, or kicked because they haven’t run the path 100 times. How is anyone supposed to know to sneak past 50 mobs and hide in a corner, when the dungeons are not intended to be played that way? Then you get the guy with 12,000 achievement points getting kittened off because no one knows all his secret hiding spots, and it’s crystal clear why no one cares about dungeons anymore.

The next biggest problem, is everyone is speccing Berserker or similar damage gear, and going full damage traits. Then everyone dies in 3 hits. If you go support, you’re not wanted.

In summary, confusing and broken dungeons, together with a 2 year old player base hostile to newbies is why no one cares about dungeons anymore in this game.

dungeons arent really confusing imo
and tbh you dont need support builds u just need to kill kitten fast

Ciucan.5092:

Zaxares.5419:

As you’ve noticed, the most efficient method of beating the dungeons is the zerker meta, and yes, that does tend to mean that people who play different types of builds are unwanted. That’s a deeper issue regarding game balance, I feel.

The zerker meta is the most efficient way of going through dungeons when you have players who understand the type of build.
Running a pug group full of zerkers with some newbies will prove far more difficult than say a more toughness build.

Zerker is the way to go once you are used to your class and have run all the dungeons a couple of times.Getting a fresh new lvl 80 in zerker gear and throwing him in a dungeon with let’s say 2 more just like him,will prove to be a wipe fest.

unless you have someone to teach you
i put my friend in zerker gear and melee and she is used to conditions and ranged
and she was fine because i explained things to her

In terms of helping people I just cling onto the romatic side of the idea. Its just good for you.

After the run I had.. I assumed new. Then one started talking about arah and how much harder it was. First thought was…. then why dont you have WOR on your bar? Run went downhill from htere. I didnt want to help at all. Infact I all but sabotaged them. Namely by not playing properly.

Also Necro’s are incapable of reading. and arghhhh. I need a break from pugs.

To answer the original question:

No. We shouldn’t help new players learn dungeons.

If we do, they’ll probably start to enjoy them, rapidly exhaust them, and want more of them. Then they’ll get bored and bitter and realize that this game is never going to be more than LS and QoL updates, and stop having fun. They’ll just get frustrated and rage about the lack of content, then eventually get fed up and leave.

We should discourage newer players from doing dungeons and push them towards LS instances so that they can actually have a future playing this game. Don’t turn them into us. That’s just mean.

All in favor, say “All is vain.”

kitten thats deep dlonie.

So much frustration in this lil’ thread..
The main issue in this game is people refusing to comunicate.
If someone says that he is new to dungeon X at the start, he will get threatened different than without saying anything!
Dungeons themselves are simple.

GrimmR.3541:

So much frustration in this lil’ thread..
The main issue in this game is people refusing to comunicate.
If someone says that he is new to dungeon X at the start, he will get threatened different than without saying anything!
Dungeons themselves are simple.

It is not just about mis-communication, but us dungeoners getting exploited by Anet without any benefits. In two year span, we were only given fractal and aetherpath, both suffering from terrible rewards as well as hardcore RNG. Also if Anet is so invested in new players, isn’t it their job to teach users how to do dungeons on their “intended” way? [Noob] guild is a community effort without any backing of Anet other than the thread being sticky. But Anet refuses to release any new contents for dungeon/fractal in general and most of the times ignores the plea of dungeon community.

Meanwhile Anet continues to stab any dedicated dungeon runners in the back through various patches, including the reset of fractal leaderboard, terrible RNG drop of fractal/aetherpath weapon skins, lack of rewards for high level fractal (getting nothing rings/uninfused rings at 40+), absolutely no new dungeons, and now instance hijacking and refusal to intervene in any unfair LFG kick. If Anet doesn’t acknowledge its dungeon runners and remove any protection (or what was left there), why should the community help Anet?

There is absolutely no new contents for dungeon runners, even when the dungeon community provided detailed guide, videos and websites at no cost. And yet Anet dissolved dungeon teams and continues to rely on user base. There should be give and take relationship formed between developers and users, in which developers “reward” various groups of gamers through release of new contents or new rewards. Anet simply takes and milks through gem store while level gating/rehashing old contents as new and continues to ignore a fairly large and important player base. Well many, including PvP, WvW and Dungeons.

The problem is that the game we all want is not the game that exists.

GW2 shipped with a set of dungeons. We all assumed that, like most MMOs, they would expand upon this content. Instead, they got rid of the designers and developers who worked on the initial set, pushed maintenance off onto the already overburdened Competitive Team, and that’s that. There will be nothing but bug fixes for dungeons, and they’ve finally admitted to this in the linked thread. And since the team charged with their maintenance has too much other stuff to do and appears to not be very familiar with the dungeon systems, those bug fixes will always come late and often introduce more bugs than they fix.

Looking back, they never said they would expand this content. We had expectations, having come from other games where content updates are normal, but ArenaNet never had any intentions of meeting them. Nor did they ever hint that they would. They don’t have enough people, and they don’t seem to care that its what many of their players want.

It’s not just dungeons either. PvE balance is horribly broken and has been since launch. They don’t care. LS is all they’ve ever promised, and, looking at the past two years, it’s all we can expect.

This reality has set in for a lot of us, and is why many of us are no longer playing since Regina’s announcement.

I think you/we should help new players. If they want the help. And if you/we actually enjoy helping.

And help can have various forms. Sometimes it’s information about builds, sometimes it’s about encounter mechanics, sometimes it’s about the tricks of the trade for certain professions. Sometimes they might want someone to carry them through something they still struggle with.
And sometimes it’s just to provide an additional member for a group of newbies who wish to explore a dungeon without you telling them much and figuring out stuff for themselves.

If you enjoy these things, then help. If you don’t, then don’t do it. There is no obligation to help. And these are no absolutes. There are days when you might be in the mood and days when you might not.

I think this system works for both sides. I mean, who would want a mentor who has a feeling of “I have to do this” opposed to “I want to help them, if I can and if they want me to”?

Also dlonie, if you keep this up I’ll be running out of +1 for your posts. And I’m not talking about only this topic.

Silberfisch.3046:

Also dlonie, if you keep this up I’ll be running out of +1 for your posts. And I’m not talking about only this topic.

Hey, I calls ’em like I sees ’em =D

And this game has got a rather dark cloud looming over it these days.

@TheFamster ; i completely understand your point man. I have been at the same point as you are right now and i still hate gettibg no reactions on our wishes and desires..
Just donating some gems for the tournament will not change the bad state PvE is in right now. But unfortunately they focus more on WvW and PvP Tournaments; best example. PvE Tournament is held by Players themselves; WvW and PvP Tournaments are held by Anet. But tbh. what should we do mate ?

I for my part will still help new players because i have been a noobie too back in the days.. Without the tips and general help i got from some players out there, i could not be zhe big bad elitist i am now..

GrimmR.3541:

@TheFamster ; i completely understand your point man. I have been at the same point as you are right now and i still hate gettibg no reactions on our wishes and desires..
Just donating some gems for the tournament will not change the bad state PvE is in right now. But unfortunately they focus more on WvW and PvP Tournaments; best example. PvE Tournament is held by Players themselves; WvW and PvP Tournaments are held by Anet. But tbh. what should we do mate ?

I for my part will still help new players because i have been a noobie too back in the days.. Without the tips and general help i got from some players out there, i could not be zhe big bad elitist i am now..

I would still help people, but now I am refraining myself from going to LFG such as @ lupi need help/ P (1~3) first time. If the person joins my guild/becomes my friend, that is a different thing. I’ve gotten kicked more than 100+ when I was learning Arah, so I’d occasionally drop in just for lupi fight, help them get to last boss in p1~p3, then leave so that other players can take the tokens/gold.

I really respect what hardcore dungeon runners/occasionally helpful PUGS/[Noob] and people in this thread do to help out the new players, but I’m just so sick of Anet that I can’t do it anymore. Unless Anet decides to release even a mini dungeon/update fractal, then I’d actively help new players even at the risk of being kicked. But if this lack of contents goes on, then I’d rather have new players fend for themselves while I run dungeons with my “casualcore” friends/guildies

In terms of helping other players and getting rewarded, you will have to look both inward, and at the your students for that.

Im not going to sit here re-typing what you said about anet, you already know they arent going to reward you.

Youll need to find your buzz about helping others: weither you hold on to the romatic idea behind it, whiteknight it or just do it cause you feel like it. I do hope you find your insperation again =]

On the topic of helping…

A dash of advise. I tend to help with my mesmer, has lots of condi removal, projectile defense, stealth, Time warp, Portal, and purple. The downside is I sorta cant do much… solo. I mean I just cant kill things fast enough. Either warden is like “Nah Imma just stand here” or they simply look at the phantasms and kill em. Then the run is screwed because I just cant do enough damage the the people being taught well….
I give advise and dont force to change and that makes runs quite challenging.

I know I can survive with my warrior its just that I dont think I can keep the students alive whilst doing it. I am also thinking guardian since it is somewhat of a middle ground. and well FK ele. Everything insta targets me the second I enter combat. Its like they know. “Where is your fiery Great Sword now mothertrucker? You gonna die kitten!”

maha.7902:

I kind of find strictly requiring meta builds kind of sad to be honest, a teacher in my opinion should be proficient enough at a dungeon that they can do enormous carries should the situation demand it just to push along the progress of the instance if the students get stuck somewhere.

I agree with that statement unfortunately I am unable to …. I am not proficient enough to do enormous carries. Is it just a practice more thing or should I be using a different profession? I have access to ele/mes/guard/war/engi (Levelling thief right now.)

I’d usually grab my guard when I was teaching. Except for that one time when I somehow started on my ele and was pretty much useless the entire time (I suck at ele).

Guard gives you reflects, party stability, party swiftness, party aegis, condition removal…plus you’re a fair bit tankier than a mesmer if you need to take a few hits. It’s not as flashy as a mesmer, but it makes one hell of a good teaching class. And WoR/SoA work on uneven terrain, too :^P