Guild Wars 2

Skipping mobs by leashing is an intended activity by ANet. That’s why mobs in dungeons leash. In other games they don’t leash. So people make stealth groups to bypass trash. And in that case it’s still a valid way to play the game.

Cheesing a dungeon is like killing mossman by AFK firing your rifle for 5 minutes.

As to killing everything is more profitable? No way, unless you have unlimited playtime and are running into DR. This is never a problem for me.

I can pug run 3 paths of AC killing everything in 60-90 min. I will get x silver, 180 tokens, and half my drops will be from bosses and chests. This time frame includes killing oozes and gravelings that we aggro…for 5 silver and unknown drops.

or

I can pug “speed run” run 3 paths AC and 2 paths of CoF in the same amount of time, still killing widow and kholer 3×. Just skipping trash. I get 40% more tokens (300), chests, bosses and xp bonus.

Killing trash just can’t compete.

And it is not even about being effective.

I do not run dungeons for the gold, because I have enough of that.
I do it for fun, and for me personally, killing the same trash mobs, lacking any creativity in their mechanics, is NOT fun.
The lack of drops does not really make up for that.

The path of least resistance is human nature.
But a game and it’s culture sanctifying it, especially to such an extreme level, is a whole different kind of thing. Like how trolling is technically a part of human nature, but the game structure and culture of EVE Online takes it to the point it’s part of what people say about the game in summary. It’s in excess to the point of being an identifying characteristic. Human nature and group identity aren’t mutually exclusive.

Vox Hollow.2736:

The path of least resistance is human nature.
But a game and it’s culture sanctifying it, especially to such an extreme level, is a whole different kind of thing. Like how trolling is technically a part of human nature, but the game structure and culture of EVE Online takes it to the point it’s part of what people say about the game in summary. It’s in excess to the point of being an identifying characteristic. Human nature and group identity aren’t mutually exclusive.

They’re not but my point was that your categorization of said such behavior is a “gw1 culture” and i merely pointed out that regardless of what game it may be, the root of it all stems from human nature. To merely categorize something on the lowest level of grouping is inaccurate or ignorant to the true reasoning behind behaviors

Are you saying I should stop saying that you’re doing something, that you’re very clearly doing, because you have a motive for doing so?

I do think it’s a problem. The solution isn’t going to come from better loot either. I firmly believe a lot of it is just mindsets. For example, I love taking on the “trash” mobs not just for loot, but it’s a challenge sometimes, and that’s fun to me. So I have a reason beyond loot, which sadly others don’t share. Poor ol’ me.

Still, the mindset I see across the board is “gold, gimme gold, l337 gear & fame! I wanna be a specialz person! RAWR!”.

Definitely agree here.
Now, each and every time I pug, people just go “noob go skip trash they don’t loot”.
Given that we’re not always full guild, we have to bring some pugs to run dungeons.
This overskipping of absolutely everything possible to skip just spoils my fun in dungeons.
Some will say “just kill the trash and don’t care about them”.
There are several problems to this :
1) If you aren’t 4 or at least 3 to want to kill mobs, you can’t kill them and you die
2) pugs insult “omg omg noob noob go skip trash omg” and ragequit
3) pugs insult that you’re wasting their time and votekick you (wonderful …) and it ends up YOU being kittened.

I hope they’ll do something about it, and something FAST. But I know for sure they won’t, or at least it will be very slow and skipping will rule for a while …

KratosAngel.7289:

I hope they’ll do something about it, and something FAST.

ANET said that they have nothing against skipping so why would they do anything about it?

If you don’t like skipping, form your own “no skip” group. If you can’t, then the population does not share your views. It’s not your place to dictate how others play; it’s very arrogant for you to believe so.

Blackmoon.6837:

I do think it’s a problem. The solution isn’t going to come from better loot either. I firmly believe a lot of it is just mindsets. For example, I love taking on the “trash” mobs not just for loot, but it’s a challenge sometimes, and that’s fun to me. So I have a reason beyond loot, which sadly others don’t share. Poor ol’ me.

Still, the mindset I see across the board is “gold, gimme gold, l337 gear & fame! I wanna be a specialz person! RAWR!”.

It might be a challenge the first time you see certain trash, but when you’re running AC or CoF or CoE for the 50th time, there’s really no challenge there. The trash just becomes a time sink because you know the mechanics and if you’re capable of skipping them, more power to you. If you’re not interested in skipping trash, the advertise for a group that wants to do a full clear.

I respect that other people may enjoy clearing dungeons, they should respect that I enjoy speed clearing dungeons. Don’t try to dictate my playstyle because you don’t enjoy it as much as I do.

Respectfully disagree.
Not only is a Pugging it’s own sort of variable difficulty monkeywrench that breaks up the static experience. But also success and failure in combat has multiple degrees of difference. It’s possible to kill something by the skin of your teeth barely pulling your own weight, or by seeing your a man short and proceeding to heft a bucket full of newbies on your back prancing through the dungeon without so much as breaking a sweat. Success isn’t limited to some banal gear check, this is a game with an actual skill curve, god bless it. And while the reward structure sadly doesn’t encourage exploring it, that doesn’t mean it objectively isn’t there and there isn’t a value to be seen in it.

I notice people say ‘time sink’ alot, and that just doesn’t process to journey-centric people the same way it does destination-centric ones. ‘Time sink’ just isn’t a word that would ever cross my mind to use. That’s not to say my time is magically infinite, but rather, how can I use up too much time doing the thing I specifically came to do? That’s like saying there’s too much ice cream between me and the bottom of the cone.

There’s really no finer example than that to describe just how badly we’re talking past eachother in these threads. Both sides are offering points that are basically nonsense to other’s position.

I do agree that making sure our motivations are clear at the start is the key to making sure everybody’s experience is a satisfying one. But I do seriously hate my options being limited to ‘speed clear’ and ‘full clear’. Where the deuce is the ‘I don’t need to go out of my way to fight mobs, but if we aggro it I expect to fight it, and I don’t want to cheesily exploit boss encounters or glitch out the terrain’ nifty little phrase?

Errant Venture.9371:

It might be a challenge the first time you see certain trash, but when you’re running AC or CoF or CoE for the 50th time, there’s really no challenge there. The trash just becomes a time sink because you know the mechanics and if you’re capable of skipping them, more power to you. If you’re not interested in skipping trash, the advertise for a group that wants to do a full clear.

Again, that’s how you see things. I’ve been running dungeons for quite the time and have probably ranked well over the hundreds for cof, hotw and (based on my achievement) fracs too. Every run tends to have a challenge based on who’s in the party. Sometimes I’ll get new people who need a little more support to learn the ropes, and even after explaining the routine, they still know how to get a rockin’ vibe started for the party. Recently it’s been more difficult though because most people rage quit rather than putting the effort to get past the challenge. D=

Ironically, it’s the speed-clear groups that are boring. Everyone knows everything, so aside from the skipping, the challenge of the game is even dissipated.

Errant Venture.9371:

I respect that other people may enjoy clearing dungeons, they should respect that I enjoy speed clearing dungeons. Don’t try to dictate my playstyle because you don’t enjoy it as much as I do.

I’m not dictating anyone’s game. Just stating some opinion and observation. It’s clear as day, the conventional wisdom for end-game guild wars 2 is “speed-clear grind for top loot/gear”. That makes it really difficult and tantalizing for the rest of us who don’t follow suit.

Maybe ANet needs to think of incentives to “convince” skippers to not skip. That, or “force” everyone to fight specific mob groups within per-established areas of the dungeons, and only open the next path when the group(s) are dead.

Gallian.7630:

Maybe ANet needs to think of incentives to “convince” skippers to not skip. That, or “force” everyone to fight specific mob groups within per-established areas of the dungeons, and only open the next path when the group(s) are dead.

They did they made kholer/other bosslike mobs drop 10s lol. IDK what more incentive they can add. They can add some other mobs to these extra silvers and bags of wonderous goods.

If you do not want to skip then tell your party that before the dungeon. Either way it’s sooooo much faster to skip and get your money n tokens.

I laughed so much at people saying “don’t dictate your gamestyle”. LOL. And what are you doing, refusing to kill the trash in a group that states they would ? You IMPOSE your gamestyle to a majority of players.
I don’t care, when I join a pug of 3-4 people, their will to skip trash, I’m pug, I follow the group.
However, what I do care is pugs, when you are 2-3-4 guildies join and try to IMPOSE skipping trash and if you don’t, usually, they don’t first leave, they want to kick you … LOL ?!
THAT is the problem in skipping … people willing to impose their skipping policy on everyone even if they are in minority.

When I talked about “fixing” it, I did not mean ban skipping people or something. I only meant, as it was said above, giving more value to loots frop trash. I mean, when we see only hunk or white items, or even nothing from trash, I understand that nobody wants to kill them … they should at least loot blue or green …
Other “fix” possible, in the revamp, is having more events/trash that must be cleared to progress.
Still, I find this 2nd option not very good as it imposes rules. I prefer having ways to encourage people not to skip.

KratosAngel.7289:

I laughed so much at people saying “don’t dictate your gamestyle”. LOL. And what are you doing, refusing to kill the trash in a group that states they would ? You IMPOSE your gamestyle to a majority of players.
I don’t care, when I join a pug of 3-4 people, their will to skip trash, I’m pug, I follow the group.
However, what I do care is pugs, when you are 2-3-4 guildies join and try to IMPOSE skipping trash and if you don’t, usually, they don’t first leave, they want to kick you … LOL ?!
THAT is the problem in skipping … people willing to impose their skipping policy on everyone even if they are in minority.

When I talked about “fixing” it, I did not mean ban skipping people or something. I only meant, as it was said above, giving more value to loots frop trash. I mean, when we see only hunk or white items, or even nothing from trash, I understand that nobody wants to kill them … they should at least loot blue or green …
Other “fix” possible, in the revamp, is having more events/trash that must be cleared to progress.
Still, I find this 2nd option not very good as it imposes rules. I prefer having ways to encourage people not to skip.

Then your problem isn’t skipping, it’s morons who don’t pay attention to group composition. You can’t fix stupidity. Don’t try to lump all speedclearers in with idiot pugs.

If you don’t want to skip, clearly advertise that, explain it to your pugs when they join, and votekick them if they don’t obey those rules you set down. I do the same thing when I form a speedclear group.

tl;dr don’t make a post/thread complaining about how much you loathe speedclearing when your real problem is that you don’t like dealing with idiot pugs.

Everything in nature, including human nature, takes the path of least resistance. Don’t fight it, embrace it.

The only way they are going to fix it is to put some decent loot/drop rates on mobs .

Considering Anet does nothing but nerf loot/drop rates I don’t see that happening anytime in the near (or far off for that matter) future.

This is a symptom not the underlying problem.
People skip everything they can for a reason. That reason is, they are tired of doing boring gameplay (dumb-as-rocks mobs with kittentons of HP) for pretty much no reward. Which is not limited to just dungeons btw.

kendokken.3257:

The only way they are going to fix it is to put some decent loot/drop rates on mobs .

Considering Anet does nothing but nerf loot/drop rates I don’t see that happening anytime in the near (or far off for that matter) future.

This is a symptom not the underlying problem.
People skip everything they can for a reason. That reason is, they are tired of doing boring gameplay (dumb-as-rocks mobs with kittentons of HP) for pretty much no reward. Which is not limited to just dungeons btw.

So what kind of new loot would you suggest? More silver drops? Increases inflation. More t6, rare and exotic drops? Will reduce their relative value. It would end up being the same as now.

Skipping is great. It’s not as easy as some people feel it is. Usually it fails because people fail to skip, but if you have an experienced group you can complete dungeons and get the reward as quickly as possible and get rewards at a faster rate than killing mobs, assuming you are not triggering diminishing returns.

Most mobs drop trash loot (until the loot system is fixed), and in reality the t5 and t6 mats just really aren’t worth the trouble anymore considering the recent price dips, and you could probably farm mobs elsewhere for those anyways at an easier rate (non-silver mobs).

Also, some people run dungeons just for tokens and not for the gold or loot associated with the dungeon itself so the actual route is irrelevant. Some dungeons and mobs that are perceived to be good farm are actually not and this misconception leads to people complaining about skipping.

Anet, just add some doors to gate off mobs. /thread

Non-skippers, just stop having a problem with people who want to skip. /thread

Skipping in regular dungeons is ok, you get nothing worth it in them, not even on bosses.

Skipping in fractals is a whole different story. Loadstones, Cores, Exotics (account bound and not), rares, T5, T6 mats and so on. In non-skipping runs I make an avarage of 5g and it takes about 5 minutes longer than skipping, if even that. Skipping on the other hand might give as little as 50s on a run.

BakaOniiChan.9564:

Gallian.7630:

Maybe ANet needs to think of incentives to “convince” skippers to not skip. That, or “force” everyone to fight specific mob groups within per-established areas of the dungeons, and only open the next path when the group(s) are dead.

They did they made kholer/other bosslike mobs drop 10s lol. IDK what more incentive they can add. They can add some other mobs to these extra silvers and bags of wonderous goods.

If you do not want to skip then tell your party that before the dungeon. Either way it’s sooooo much faster to skip and get your money n tokens.

I am not a fan of skipping but even so they could at least make Bag of Wonderous Goods a guarantee drop rather a 50/50 between that and the crappy amulets.

Rathore.9348:

Before you enter the dungeon at all, ask how many people intend to skip mobs. The truth is if two people want to skip, then chances are the rest of you will have to as well in the interest of cooperating. If skipping is unacceptable to you then just apologize and gracefully leave the group. Your frustration is not worth a few dungeon tokens.

Eventually you’ll find folks who will actually want to kill things and not just rely on chest loot. Once you find those people, make a few friends and ask about their guilds. A tiny bit of networking goes a long way both in game and in life. As a bonus, I’ve found that the people who regularly engage in rather than avoid combat tend to be much more skilled and more knowledgeable about the game.

I regularly form groups ankittenhe person who starts the explorable. I always mention “including Kholer” when doing AC so people know I am not skipping. But usually someone – or multiple people – will want to skip Kholer. At this point I either just have to accept that they have joined my group and changed the intended goal, or be Mr Unpopular and argue for Kholer. God forbid I quit at that stage, no doubt I’d be subject to abuse for getting everyone kicked from the dungeon.

It’s kitten. Give us better rewards from Kholer (or any skippable boss) so people don’t skip. It’s half the fun of the dungeon.

Just from reading this thread i can see these dungeons have a multitude of issues…Rewards need to change, Areas need to block. I’m not sure but its not hard to see these dungeons need complete over hauls..

I don’t do dungeons very often but when I do I feel kinda cheese for skipping stuff. I play them because I enjoy them, kittenty bosses and all! I don’t care if it takes 50 mins instead of 40, I enjoy the experience. Unfortunately, I do appreciate that other people see them as a token source and race though. That’s fine, but it is lovely when people play it as intended
I agree with making the loot on skippable bosses something to intice people to complete them.

If they want so bad to avoid skippers, just turn the NPCs a bunch of cowards, they don´t advance if the mobs are not killed (I remember an event like this, a little girl or something like that).

Put more money or more drops will only be a paliative, give some time and it will lose interest (like kholer…, give loot and money but most people don´t give a kitten about it).

Malediktus.9250:

kendokken.3257:

The only way they are going to fix it is to put some decent loot/drop rates on mobs .

Considering Anet does nothing but nerf loot/drop rates I don’t see that happening anytime in the near (or far off for that matter) future.

This is a symptom not the underlying problem.
People skip everything they can for a reason. That reason is, they are tired of doing boring gameplay (dumb-as-rocks mobs with kittentons of HP) for pretty much no reward. Which is not limited to just dungeons btw.

So what kind of new loot would you suggest? More silver drops? Increases inflation. More t6, rare and exotic drops? Will reduce their relative value. It would end up being the same as now.

Stick some tokens in their loot table – naturally make them rare, but it means people can balance time saved by not killing them vs potentially fewer dungeon runs needed if you do.
Obviously you’d need to take some precautions (exclude enemies that respawn for example)

I skip most of the mobs in the old dungeons, however I try not to skip mobs in fractals. Loot matters.

Funny thing, have skipped the jade mobs for years, because the drops were not worth my time.
Yesterday, someone in my party suggested to kill, for the great drops.

After killing all of them, I ended up with 2 Stones. Rest of the party had some blues.

You are unlucky, I get almost every time at least some t5 poison and 1-3 t6 poison. You cannot judge drops from just one run.

If I want money, I make quick gold on the TP, which for me is about the same level of enjoyment as killing trash mobs without any mechanic other than auto attack.

Since I do not care about drops or gold, I judge the content I play by fun, which makes it kinda hard for me to play more than 1 or 2 dungeons a day, despite having enough time to do more.

The jade maw mobs have drops definitely worth killing for.

Problem is oftentimes when you reach jade maw you’re ready to just skip and get it over with.

I suggest deactivating stealth kits and portal cannons for dungeons and fractals.(or better even delete them from game entirely). That would solve some problems quick and easy.

Minion of Vey.4398:

The jade maw mobs have drops definitely worth killing for

The last 5 out of 6 Maw runs (20’s) have been kill runs. I’ve only gotten blues and greens, despite doing more than enough damage to tag to every mob. There’s always several poison sacs per run

I don’t think Maw mobs have higher loot distribution than any other Fractal mob. That doesn’t mean they aren’t worth killing, but several other fractals are better than Maw IMO:

Dredge
Urban
Krait
Cliffside (outlaws drop loot bags)

Malediktus.9250:

I suggest deactivating stealth kits and portal cannons for dungeons and fractals.(or better even delete them from game entirely). That would solve some problems quick and easy.

What kind of problems? anet already stated that skipping isn’t a problem.

That’s ridiculous there isn’t anything wrong with skipping. You can’t seriously expect anet to do something that they have no control over.
Some people grind the same paths daily for tokens and don’t wish to farm. You should discuss with your group before you enter if the group should farm for mats or not.

evolverzilla.2359:

If they want so bad to avoid skippers, just turn the NPCs a bunch of cowards, they don´t advance if the mobs are not killed (I remember an event like this, a little girl or something like that).

Put more money or more drops will only be a paliative, give some time and it will lose interest (like kholer…, give loot and money but most people don´t give a kitten about it).

I find most people skip kholer because they don’t under stand how\when to dodge him and complain about him being “too hard”. The groups I’ve been in that can burn him down do it.

You’re welcome to form your own groups with whomever you want and using whatever rules you want. Just because you want to play the game a certain way doesn’t mean the rest of us should be forced to play that way.

This is pretty obvious imo…buy a common sense vitamin please…

I’m going to have to agree here. Skipping and exploiting is becoming far to normal. Yes I practice it too, because I am forced too because as you say they run ahead and leave you. People can do what they want of course but the fact that so many cling to taking the easiest route means that they will never learn to do the harder and intended route better. It’s amazing how hard some people try to avoid things, so much to the point where it actually takes longer to avoid it than it would actually doing it. The last 4 Fractal groups I’ve been in reset on the first fractal if it’s anything other than the swamp or the foefire fractal. What is to be scared of? Those Fractals do not have to be painful if they are played through in a smart way. They can be efficiently completed if a brain is used.

It’s the same with skipping mobs. Sure maybe the loot is garbage by itself, is it to be expected that you get 10s a monster? You have to think, the loot is balanced around consumables as well. A level 35 going through AC for the first time will probably come out with less than 40s on their first run. I came out with like 12s after armor repairs. The Omnomberry bar buff can easily turn AC runs into at LEAST 1-2g per run IF you kill the boss’s+lesser stuff.

About monsters being leashed, I do not think it’s there to make it easy to skip so much as it’s needed for several reasons. One being pulling everything into 1 corner and nuking everything as fast as you can. Knowledge of fights would be useless.

ower.9143:

evolverzilla.2359:

… put more money or more drops will only be a paliative, give some time and it will lose interest (like kholer…, give loot and money but most people don´t give a kitten about it).

I find most people skip kholer because they don’t under stand how\when to dodge him and complain about him being “too hard”. The groups I’ve been in that can burn him down do it.

Nope, they just skip to get 3 or 4 minutes less in total time dungeon. I had very good players in the guild that skip frequently this boss, and not so good that go head to head with him.

Spifnar.4712:

Minion of Vey.4398:

The jade maw mobs have drops definitely worth killing for

The last 5 out of 6 Maw runs (20’s) have been kill runs. I’ve only gotten blues and greens, despite doing more than enough damage to tag to every mob. There’s always several poison sacs per run

I don’t think Maw mobs have higher loot distribution than any other Fractal mob. That doesn’t mean they aren’t worth killing, but several other fractals are better than Maw IMO:

Dredge
Urban
Krait
Cliffside (outlaws drop loot bags)

I think you’ve just had some bad luck on the maw mobs. Those irukandji mobs are one of the few sources of t6 venom drops available at the moment (which is why those sell for more than the other t6 mats currently). I usually get a couple while doing the clear.

I don’t know whether they have a higher drop rate than outside or not, but they are veterans which helps.

As for dredge, overall yes it’s better.

I really don’t have a problem with skipping content. In fact occasionally I do it myself if it’s something we can avoid aggroing I just don’t like running past every group, pulling them all with me and potentially screwing over everyone behind me. That being said, if you like skipping everything, by all means go do it. And if you don’t like skipping and ask to join a group, you better ask first if they are a speedclear or not. However, it goes both ways, if you show up in a town saying “we need 1 more for X Dungeon so we can go, Path X” and never mention it’s a speed clear until you start running past everything and leaving the pug behind, well then that’s just an kitten thing to do. YOU initiated the invite, YOU are responsible for clarifying how the run should go. Just like THEY should ask if it’s a speedclear if THEY are the ones wanting a party. A small amount of communication goes a long way. I even know people who are against speedclears that normally wouldn’t mind helping out on one if a spot needs filling provided that they are told ahead of time and told how the group expects to pull of this speedclear. There’s way too much arrogance and kittentery on both sides and people just need to stop being noobs and know how to communicate.

only skip i proper hate is the jade maw trash. Someone dies and the respawn in the middle of a pack of adds and get mauled again. And ya cant go back to help em so ya have to die yaself.

If peopel want to skip then thats their bag, if you dont want to ya can easily leave and find a group that wants to kill all trash. If it was something Anet didn want they wouldnt put trash on a leash at all.

People skip because enemies in dungeons are slow to kill, boring to fight, too hard, or a combination of any of those.
People who skips can get over 20 gold in little time, while people who don’t won’t get even close to that.

I really hate when people skip, and I’d rather have closed doors all over the place. Running away from a foe? Preposterous.

The main problem I see is that people is getting so used to skip that in some cases they’ll just try to skip groups of enemies when they fails so much, that they may take more time than if they actually fought them.

Dungeons could really use some closed doors here and there, more split routes along the way based on hard events you may fail, more events here and there, bonus rewards for completing extra objectives, more interesting and engaging events, and levels of difficulty similar to the fractals, so people who just want to do them can do them as intended, instead by exploiting the loopholes people find, and skipping as much as possible to reach the end reward.
Maybe levels shared across all dungeons and even with the fractals, since people will be able to enter fractals way over their own unlocked level anyways, so no one would be limited by the level.

MithranArkanere.8957:

People skip because enemies in dungeons are slow to kill, boring to fight, too hard, or a combination of any of those.

I disagree only with this part.

Only people who insists in using PVT just to skip (not my case… living in Brazil, you have a hellish internet connection in country towns and a lot of lag, problems to evade and heal are commom) or using MF gear (losing the critical multiplier – precision-critical chance critical%-critical damage multiplier) will have trouble killing a trash mob. Throw off the MF, use more DPS gear and you will see the difference.

Nope. That is not true in dungeons.

While outside, you get a masterwork item of the same level and you’ll notice the difference.

In a dungeon, you get full +power exotic, and it’ll be mostly the same: slow to kill, boring to fight, too hard, or a combination of any of those.

I know of people who sill has level 25 gear even though they are level 60 because they do mostly dungeons, and they stopped bothering with getting new gear when they saw how they can still reach the last boss with that gear without problems. They level up in dungeon, then get exotic gear and do stuff in explorables, story and WvW, where gear has a more noticeable effect.