Guild Wars 2

First of all, I’m not here to hate or anything like that, just curious. So let’s keep everything peaceful, mmk?

Why does everyone consider the infamous WoR “tactic” to be an inexcusable exploit? In general, how do you define the line between “bad design” and “exploit”? (“bad design” as in “it’s okay to take advantage of it”).

Because you have push/noclip half his body into a wall to be able to place WoF above lupis head.

wauwi.9162:

Because you have push/noclip half his body into a wall to be able to place WoF above lupis head.

But you also push him into the wall to make him spawn locusts on the other side. Do you also disapprove of that?
And why is it not just “bad design”?

Of course i disapprove of that.
I also approve of that, because locust can su—-my—-ha—-a—-(technical problem, please stand by)

Sorry.

Seriously, tho, glitching half a boss into a wall is not just “bad design”.

Seems like you’re reaaaally interested in calling everything bad design so it’s “ok to take advantage of it”. Heehee. Hee.
Honestly I couldn’t care less, you can do whatever the hell you want in your instance as long as you’re not annoying others.
Or selling exploited runs.

Its exploiting bad design. But not an exploit itself.

Most of the forum regulars, from what I’ve gathered, don’t consider it an exploit in the “you-should-get-banned-for-using-it” sense, though it is certainly exploiting (in the dictionary sense) an unintended interaction between mechanics. However, the mechanics are valid and it’s not a bug, so I suppose that’s where I draw the line.

That said, a lot of us don’t like it. It’s cheesy, and takes the fun out of what is one of the few interesting fights in the game, so we avoid groups that plan to use it. But to each their own — After three years, Lupi really isn’t that interesting anymore, so if some folks want to blow him up and move on with their farming, so be it.

I am sad that a lot of new folks joining for HoT hype won’t get to experience the “fun” of mastering the Lupi fight, since most PUGs seems to go for the cheese. Oh well. Hopefully they’ll nerf it soon, but this is ANet and dungeons — it’s not a priority and won’t be done anytime soon.

Pretty much the same reason we all voted against line casting being allowed for Record Runs. Sure, you can do it, but at a certain point abusing things just takes the fun out of it. It’s going to be a bit subjective, but I think that pretty much sums up the opinion on where the line is drawn for things you just shouldn’t do.

Now, for an exploit, it’s more when you’re doing something that you’re pretty darn sure is not working how they intended it to work. So Wallsploit Lupi isn’t really an exploit by that definition as nothing is working in a way it’s not supposed to, it’s just abusing bad design to the point that it’s so unfun that you really should never do it, because it’s just lame.

… and spoj summed up what I meant much mroe concisely.

They won’t nerf the wall on wall, they’re simply gonna nerf wall. You know it.
And no, I don’t mean the wall in lupi’s arena.

deSade.9437:

They won’t nerf the wall on wall, they’re simply gonna nerf wall. You know it.
And no, I don’t mean the wall in lupi’s arena.

I can’t wait for unblockable lupi projectiles, including melee Necrid Bolts.

You know it’s gonna happen :/

Jerus.4350:

Pretty much the same reason we all voted against line casting being allowed for Record Runs. Sure, you can do it, but at a certain point abusing things just takes the fun out of it. It’s going to be a bit subjective, but I think that pretty much sums up the opinion on where the line is drawn for things you just shouldn’t do.

I thought it was voted against because most people couldnt do it properly? And they didnt want to have to linecast in every record. Scrubs?

Its not really any less or more fun. It certainly required a bit more skill and setup in some cases.

Interesting, I was expecting everyone to be a little more up in arms about it. Thanks for the replies.

A few more questions:
spoj: How do you perceive “exploits” being different from “exploiting bad design”, then?

dlonie, Jerus: But why would you call this specific… tactic… “unfun”? As a side note, aren’t most dungeon-dwellers against condemning something because it’s not fun for them, specifically? That’s usually your counter-argument when people call speed-running “unfun”…
Sorry if I’m making it sound passive-aggressive, it’s really not :P

Let’s agree on “projectiles in general are badly designed”.

#bringbackourabsorbingwardens

spoj.9672:

Jerus.4350:

Pretty much the same reason we all voted against line casting being allowed for Record Runs. Sure, you can do it, but at a certain point abusing things just takes the fun out of it. It’s going to be a bit subjective, but I think that pretty much sums up the opinion on where the line is drawn for things you just shouldn’t do.

I thought it was voted against because most people couldnt do it properly? And they didnt want to have to linecast in every record. Scrubs?

Its not really any less or more fun. It certainly required a bit more skill and setup in some cases.

True, I may have been misremembering and projecting my own thoughts on it instead, the mind is a crazy thing. I know some things got banned because it sucks to get to the end of the path and screw up a small detail that ruins a record. Like I think that’s why many people hate the goating that you can do in unrestricted. So you may be right. Though line casting is also arguably an exploit, as I can’t imagine they’d intend for you to be able to greatly increase your meteor damage and land every single one by placing it on certain walls and dodging back.

I don’t know, it’s all so grey now, there is just “the powers that be said ok” and “the powers that be said no”.

Axelwarrior.9084:

Sorry if I’m making it sound passive-aggressive, it’s really not :P

No worries, your tone is much more constructive than most posters that come in here, lol.

dlonie, Jerus: But why would you call this specific… tactic… “unfun”? As a side note, aren’t most dungeon-dwellers against condemning something because it’s not fun for them, specifically? That’s usually your counter-argument when people call speed-running “unfun”…

I don’t really condemn it, I just personally don’t like it. Similarly, I find the Ice Bow meta incredibly lame, too, but if other people want to use it, that’s fine.

I find it unfun because I enjoy the mechanics of the Lupi fight. Skipping them takes away the fun part of the fight for me. Sure, watching him blowup from wall-on-wall is funny to watch, but after a couple of times it gets stale for me. So I’d rather just fight him (not that fighting him isn’t stale, too, but at least it’s engaging).

Axelwarrior.9084:

Interesting, I was expecting everyone to be a little more up in arms about it. Thanks for the replies.

A few more questions:
spoj: How do you perceive “exploits” being different from “exploiting bad design”, then?

dlonie, Jerus: But why would you call this specific… tactic… “unfun”? As a side note, aren’t most dungeon-dwellers against condemning something because it’s not fun for them, specifically? That’s usually your counter-argument when people call speed-running “unfun”…
Sorry if I’m making it sound passive-aggressive, it’s really not :P

I think it best to answer your question with a question here. Why do you think we have restricted and unrestricted rulesets for the speed runs? And to go beyond that, why do you think the restricted set is more popular?

As for personally why I find it “unfun” is because it completely trivializes one of the few fights in the game I truly enjoy. Even your valid p2/p3 skips I find unfun

And as dlonie said, it’s not so much condemning it as much as wanting to be free from it. It’s actually hard to get an LFG group to not use it, or at least was when I was running arah every day in PUGs. So my hatred built because I couldn’t personally get away from it… I guess it’s the same issue some people have with the zerk meta, just frustration because it’s so prevalent and they don’t like it.

Jerus.4350:

I don’t know, it’s all so grey now, there is just “the powers that be said ok” and “the powers that be said no”.

Or the GW2 version: “The powers that be have forsaken us so we have to kittening guess.”

Jerus, dlonie: So, you don’t really care if others are using it, you just find it unfun and that’s why you don’t do it yourself. And you also don’t think that it’s any more “exploit-y” than the other typical tactics used in dungeons? You want it to stop because you don’t like it, not because you think it’s particularly bad for the game?

dlonie.6547:

deSade.9437:

They won’t nerf the wall on wall, they’re simply gonna nerf wall. You know it.
And no, I don’t mean the wall in lupi’s arena.

I can’t wait for unblockable lupi projectiles, including melee Necrid Bolts.

You know it’s gonna happen :/

I do, frater, I do. What can we say other than amen?
/hands out trappist beer

Axelwarrior.9084:

Jerus, dlonie: So, you don’t really care if others are using it, you just find it unfun and that’s why you don’t do it yourself. And you also don’t think that it’s any more “exploit-y” than the other typical tactics used in dungeons? You want it to stop because you don’t like it, not because you think it’s particularly bad for the game?

I was with you until that last line. I do think it’s bad for the game, I don’t think that gamer’s are particularly bad for using it (though many that do only use it because they can’t beat it without).

I think it’s bad for the game just like I thought FGS was bad for the game and the current IB is bad for the game.

If players had self control however, it’d be fine, but we don’t, and if something as powerful as these things are allowed to remain, we’ll use them and just become bored with the game, and being bored is bad for the game, I mean it’s a game and meant to entertain right?

Axelwarrior.9084:

And you also don’t think that it’s any more “exploit-y” than the other typical tactics used in dungeons? You want it to stop because you don’t like it, not because you think it’s particularly bad for the game?

Like I mentioned earlier, I do find other cheesy tactics (e.g. Deep Freeze chaining) equally annoying and avoid them.

As for bad for the game, I’d argue that they are:

Look at your average PUG running Arah — they’re pretty much guaranteed to have a guardian ready to swap in CG and skip 75% of Lupi’s mechanics.

Look at, well, pretty much any speedclear since the FGS nerf. You’ll see ele/ele/thief/x/x, chain freezing every boss.

Look at any speedclear before the FGS nerf, and you’ll see a similar composition, but pushing everything into a corner/wall and nuking it with Fiery Rush. This was cheesy, but less so, since at least the boss can still move….

Rating the negative impact of these three examples on the game, I’d go with:

Deep Freeze is worse than FGS which is worse than Wallsploit

Deep Freeze shuts down all of the boss mechanics and combined with Ice Storm/linecasting trivializes every encounter. Not in the nonsense “zerk gear does more damage than soldiers, so it trivializes content” way, but actually disables the boss and melts him before he can make a single attack. Since this technique is far more powerful than any other, it ends up being the only method used by fast groups. This makes the meta stale and repetitive.

FGS just dealt OP damage, but also ended up being the optimal solution for 90% of encounters.

Walling Lupi only makes a single encounter uninteresting, so I’d view it as the least harmful.

That said, while I both don’t like these techniques and find them bad for the game, they’re still valid tactics and if other groups choose to use them, I don’t mind. Until they get nerfed by ArenaNet, they’re fair game. I just choose not to participate in them because they affect my enjoyment.

Jerus.4350:

Axelwarrior.9084:

Jerus, dlonie: So, you don’t really care if others are using it, you just find it unfun and that’s why you don’t do it yourself. And you also don’t think that it’s any more “exploit-y” than the other typical tactics used in dungeons? You want it to stop because you don’t like it, not because you think it’s particularly bad for the game?

I was with you until that last line. I do think it’s bad for the game, I don’t think that gamer’s are particularly bad for using it (though many that do only use it because they can’t beat it without).

I think it’s bad for the game just like I thought FGS was bad for the game and the current IB is bad for the game.

If players had self control however, it’d be fine, but we don’t, and if something as powerful as these things are allowed to remain, we’ll use them and just become bored with the game, and being bored is bad for the game, I mean it’s a game and meant to entertain right?

Yeah, by “particularly bad” I meant moreso than FGS, more like game-breaking bad/why is this still in the game/let’s riot. Maybe like the AC skipping exploits that a lot of people sold some time ago. That was pretty ridiculous.

Yeah, it’s not like using an exploit that completely trivilizes the game such that even the first time you’re doing it you’re thinking “wow this is dumb”. And I think that’s the key there. With some of these things, they’ll be embraced for a while, but many will slowly fall off due to the boredom they cause. So we aren’t up in arms because instantly we are opposed to it, it’s more that our disgust slowly builds, and by the time it comes to full fruition we’re more likely to just move away from the game than to get all riled up. Wallsploit got more opposition because after diong it a few times for fun we were like “yeah this is dumb.” FGS and IB took us much longer to create that feeling, so we aren’t really riled up at all, just disappointed at the results of what they caused, and some people are still having fun with them.

dlonie: I’m surprised to see a dungeon-dweller talking down on FGS so much. I was pretty sure everyone was defending it before its nerf.
But the Deep Freeze tactic is neither unintended nor an exploit, right? It’s simply… overpowered. You’re pretty much only using skills with their intended purpose, just combining them in a most likely unforeseen (by ANet) way. At least it won’t work with the changes to defiance.

Axelwarrior.9084:

dlonie: I’m surprised to see a dungeon-dweller talking down on FGS so much. I was pretty sure everyone was defending it before its nerf.

I’ll still defend the technique against people who are saying it’s an exploit. It’s just cheesy. It was valid mechanics at play — Fiery Rush left a series of small AoEs along a path, and running it into a wall concentrated them — very similar to linecasting or casting Ice Storm/Meteor Shower against a wall. If ArenaNet knows about it, and doesn’t comment on it or nerf it (until years later, anyway…), it’s not an exploit. If they actually talked about these things and interacted with their community, saying “this is an exploit” it’d be different. But I understand why they don’t — they couldn’t begin to actually enforce anything short of sticking a GM in every PvE instance

The ideal counter would have been to nerf it within weeks of becoming aware of it — instead of what…1.5 – 2 years of it dominating PvE.

But the Deep Freeze tactic is neither unintended nor an exploit, right? It’s simply… overpowered. You’re pretty much only using skills with their intended purpose, just combining them in a most likely unforeseen (by ANet) way. At least it won’t work with the changes to defiance.

Yep. It’s not a bug, it just uses mechanics as intended — not an exploit. Just very overpowered and in need of a serious nerf to add some semblance of variety to the meta.

Axelwarrior.9084:

A few more questions:
spoj: How do you perceive “exploits” being different from “exploiting bad design”, then?

In reality i dont really consider anything within using game mechanics as an exploit. Its all exploiting bad design. And there are so many things that the devs could never have intended. But theres no way they would say they are breaking the game. For example LoS pulls. These clearly exploit weak AI in order to group them up quickly. But would you consider it illegal or an exploit? No. Thats why i think people are a bit too stiff with rules and so on. The same can be said about deep freezing and bursting bosses in seconds. Im sure the devs didnt expect or intend players to be able to do that. But theres nothing wrong with doing it.

The only things i can justify as classifying as real exploits. Are really properly glitchy stuff like breaking trigger events and so on. And getting under the map and so on. But even those can be attributed to exploiting bad design. Theres not really any way to properly distinguish things other than subjective opinions. Obviously using third party software to noclip through walls is definitely an exploit/cheat/hack. That much is clear. :P

I guess to answer your question in short. If you could get banned for doing it then its an exploit. If you wont get banned but might get a queer look then its just exploiting bad design.

I’ve always been fond of St. Dan’s view:

IvanTheGrey.2941:

Boredom is not an exploit.

That’s from the original forum post about wall-on-wall, which is an interesting read in its own right.

dlonie.6547:

I think St. Dan said it best:

IvanTheGrey.2941:

Boredom is not an exploit.

That’s from the original forum post about wall-on-wall, which is an interesting read in its own right.

:( I miss that name, been so long since I’ve seen him around.

spoj.9672:

I guess to answer your question in short. If you could get banned for doing it then its an exploit. If you wont get banned but might get a queer look then its just exploiting bad design.

Yes, but my question is what would you consider a harmless and a not-harmless exploit, disregarding what GMs think and do. If you had absolute power over what is an offense and what isn’t (and what needs to be fixed/changed or not), how would you define it?

Jerus.4350:

spoj.9672:

Jerus.4350:

Pretty much the same reason we all voted against line casting being allowed for Record Runs. Sure, you can do it, but at a certain point abusing things just takes the fun out of it. It’s going to be a bit subjective, but I think that pretty much sums up the opinion on where the line is drawn for things you just shouldn’t do.

I thought it was voted against because most people couldnt do it properly? And they didnt want to have to linecast in every record. Scrubs?

Its not really any less or more fun. It certainly required a bit more skill and setup in some cases.

True, I may have been misremembering and projecting my own thoughts on it instead, the mind is a crazy thing. I know some things got banned because it sucks to get to the end of the path and screw up a small detail that ruins a record. Like I think that’s why many people hate the goating that you can do in unrestricted. So you may be right. Though line casting is also arguably an exploit, as I can’t imagine they’d intend for you to be able to greatly increase your meteor damage and land every single one by placing it on certain walls and dodging back.

I don’t know, it’s all so grey now, there is just “the powers that be said ok” and “the powers that be said no”.

I don’t know why others voted against it, but for me it was the concept of ‘once you allow it in records, it becomes mandatory in records.’ i.e. if you want to be competitive you have to line cast each and every boss in each and every path. Meaning if one person fails to line cast on a boss you have to reset the run.

For those who haven’t done records (or haven’t done a lot of records) there are lot’s and lot’s of reasons to reset a run and start over. Most of them have to do with an individual messing up on something minor but impossible to live with because it costs significant time. Then you have resets caused by rolling for RNG, which is the second level. After enough runs people generally stop messing up little things and the record goes into rolling for perfect (or good enough) RNG. I personally don’t want to add a 3rd layer of resets based around 4x perfect linecasts for every boss. Oops we had a perfect record run with perfect RNG and execution but one person messed up his line cast on the last boss better reset. No thanks.

I wouldnt ban anything that is done by use of in game mechanics personally. Unless there was excessive unfair monetary gain from the abuse. If i had my say id say people are free to do whatever they like in their own instances. And that is technically how it is. You only really run the risk of getting banned if you exploit when selling or maybe you exploit with a dev in your pug.

Jerus.4350:

dlonie.6547:

I think St. Dan said it best:

IvanTheGrey.2941:

Boredom is not an exploit.

That’s from the original forum post about wall-on-wall, which is an interesting read in its own right.

:( I miss that name, been so long since I’ve seen him around.

Him and many others

I went through our guild roster while drunk the other night… bad idea, them nostalgia feels. So many fun, great players driven away by the trainwreck that is post-launch GW2. Sad.

NikeEU.7690:

For those who haven’t done records (or haven’t done a lot of records) there are lot’s and lot’s of reasons to reset a run and start over. Most of them have to do with an individual messing up on something minor but impossible to live with because it costs significant time. Then you have resets caused by rolling for RNG, which is the second level. After enough runs people generally stop messing up little things and the record goes into rolling for perfect (or good enough) RNG. I personally don’t want to add a 3rd layer of resets based around 4x perfect linecasts for every boss.

I totally agree that the current linecast/deepfreeze tricks are bad for strategy innovation, but isn’t getting perfect linecasts just a case of the bolded scenario? It seems like one of those things that a high-end group should be expected to master if they want to compete for records. Just like nailing a perfect rotation, consistently executing a perfect linecast should be something that the speedclear elite should strive for.

Thats what i thought aswell.

I can imagine getting a perfect rotation done with linecasting feels rewarding, especially if you’re going for speedclear records.

Dungeons seriously lack in “feeling rewarding”, once you’ve done ‘em once or twice, so i can’t blame anyone from resorting to such tactics.

Now, i can’t stop thinking about that Super Smash Bros Melee dash-thingy, i never bothered to learn.

dlonie.6547:

NikeEU.7690:

For those who haven’t done records (or haven’t done a lot of records) there are lot’s and lot’s of reasons to reset a run and start over. Most of them have to do with an individual messing up on something minor but impossible to live with because it costs significant time. Then you have resets caused by rolling for RNG, which is the second level. After enough runs people generally stop messing up little things and the record goes into rolling for perfect (or good enough) RNG. I personally don’t want to add a 3rd layer of resets based around 4x perfect linecasts for every boss.

I totally agree that the current linecast/deepfreeze tricks are bad for strategy innovation, but isn’t getting perfect linecasts just a case of the bolded scenario? It seems like one of those things that a high-end group should be expected to master if they want to compete for records. Just like nailing a perfect rotation, consistently executing a perfect linecast should be something that the speedclear elite should strive for.

There is randomness to it even if done properly. It’s one thing to have to reset a run because someone got put in combat on a trash run when they shouldn’t have, is a whole other level to reset an otherwise perfect run because someone’s linecast landed half a character model behind or in front of the boss. It’s just another frustration. But you’re right, it stifles tactical innovation too.

I personally, think that if your just playing the game, it should never be considered an exploit. If your modifying software, hacking etc, yes clearly bannable. But if what your doing can be done in the vanilla version of the game by a regular human, I think it should be considered bad design but open game for players. If something is seriously unfair, roll back the accounts, take away all their gold, take away achievements. But I don’t think its ethical to ban players for playing the game as it is presented to us, just because they were clever.

I personally don’t care how Lupi is killed. I myself like to cheese him as a guardian because of big numbers and find fighting him regularly not much harder in a group setting.

NikeEU.7690:

There is randomness to it even if done properly.

Maybe I don’t understand something about it then, but I thought it just concentrated the damage at max range, and if it misses, then the caster made a mistake at figuring out where max range is. Where does randomness come in?

I can see the random distribution of the impacts on a boss with a very small hitbox causing some grief, perhaps, but that’s no different from the skill being used without linecasting.

It’s one thing to have to reset a run because someone got put in combat on a trash run when they shouldn’t have, is a whole other level to reset an otherwise perfect run because someone’s linecast landed half a character model behind or in front of the boss. It’s just another frustration.

This sounds like a subjective line in the sand. At what point do errors resulting from making a mistake while executing a precision technique become so frustrating that the technique itself should be disallowed?

Just trying to understand the reasoning here

I explained the reasoning pretty simply, I’m not interested in parsing my words further. My advice, go do a record run on a high-RNG path and you will see how disinterested in you are in adding another RNG element to it.

NikeEU.7690:

I explained the reasoning pretty simply, I’m not interested in parsing my words further.

Not even a hint? =(

You didn’t really explain the randomness, you just said “it is random”, and I really am quite curious why the frustration line is drawn at linecasting.

If I’m missing something I’d love to have the picture clarified. I can’t be the only one curious about this reasoning.

My advice, go do a record run on a high-RNG path and you will see how disinterested in you are in adding another RNG element to it.

I admit I’m not a speedrunner, but I wasn’t aware of this “it’s too frustrating to get right so ban a mechanic from use” thing. I thought that crowd was into speedrunning for the challenge of getting everything exactly perfect.

Axelwarrior.9084:

First of all, I’m not here to hate or anything like that, just curious. So let’s keep everything peaceful, mmk?

Why does everyone consider the infamous WoR “tactic” to be an inexcusable exploit? In general, how do you define the line between “bad design” and “exploit”? (“bad design” as in “it’s okay to take advantage of it”).

I don’t. It doesn’t even seem like an exploit to me, more like clever use of game mechanics that are working as intended.

dlonie.6547:

NikeEU.7690:

I explained the reasoning pretty simply, I’m not interested in parsing my words further.

Not even a hint? =(

You didn’t really explain the randomness, you just said “it is random”, and I really am quite curious why the frustration line is drawn at linecasting.

If I’m missing something I’d love to have the picture clarified. I can’t be the only one curious about this reasoning.

My advice, go do a record run on a high-RNG path and you will see how disinterested in you are in adding another RNG element to it.

I admit I’m not a speedrunner, but I wasn’t aware of this “it’s too frustrating to get right so ban a mechanic from use” thing. I thought that crowd was into speedrunning for the challenge of getting everything exactly perfect.

If that was the case we’d see more activity in the restricted set, or we’d see Linecasting and such allowed in the restricted set. The goal of the restricted set is to put boundaries in that are intended to create a more fun environment, really simple as that.

But, I am curious as to the nature of the randomness in Line Casting, I’ve seen people screw it up quite a bit, but it’s always because they placed it half a centimeter to the left of the spot it should have been or something like that.

Jerus.4350:

I thought that crowd was into speedrunning for the challenge of getting everything exactly perfect.

If that was the case we’d see more activity in the restricted set, or we’d see Linecasting and such allowed in the restricted set. The goal of the restricted set is to put boundaries in that are intended to create a more fun environment, really simple as that.

Like in the other thread, I guess my issue was that I wasn’t aware how deeply subjective these rules were. So the “line in the sand” really is arbitrary and just based on community opinion. Interesting.

But, I am curious as to the nature of the randomness in Line Casting, I’ve seen people screw it up quite a bit, but it’s always because they placed it half a centimeter to the left of the spot it should have been or something like that.

Too bad the author of that statement has chosen to take his toys and leave, rather than help us understand what he was trying to say :-(

dlonie.6547:

NikeEU.7690:

I explained the reasoning pretty simply, I’m not interested in parsing my words further.

Not even a hint? =(

You didn’t really explain the randomness, you just said “it is random”, and I really am quite curious why the frustration line is drawn at linecasting.

If I’m missing something I’d love to have the picture clarified. I can’t be the only one curious about this reasoning.

My advice, go do a record run on a high-RNG path and you will see how disinterested in you are in adding another RNG element to it.

I admit I’m not a speedrunner, but I wasn’t aware of this “it’s too frustrating to get right so ban a mechanic from use” thing. I thought that crowd was into speedrunning for the challenge of getting everything exactly perfect.

Your mindset more closely resembles that of a true speedrunner than most of the people that dictated the current rules. Unfortunately we have to appease the majority even if it doesnt make any rational sense.

I think you guys are going really off-topic, so maybe start a new thread to discuss that?

Trying to satisfy people who dont know what they want is what i meant by that comment.

Also where you draw the line is fuzzy and unclear. Where i draw the line is impossible to misinterpret. Thats the difference.

spoj.9672:

Trying to satisfy people who dont know what they want is what i meant by that comment.

So I’m the one who dictates but you are the one who thinks he knows better what people want than they do?

Also where you draw the line is fuzzy and unclear. Where i draw the line is impossible to misinterpret. Thats the difference.

My stance is clear too, I am for banning the arah p3 door thing too since it violates the letter and spirit of the rule. Unfortunately there was politics involved in grandfathering in that exploit, namely Sandy wanting to preserve the record for rT since they just finished it a few days/weeks prior. I was fine at the time for grandfathering it in, if it meant a wholly superior ruleset in every other respect. But no, if you asked me my position I would say it violates the rule and should be disallowed. My position is crystal clear on that issue and all other pertaining to rule 5.

Well ok then thats fine. But its clear that others arent of the same consistent opinion.

The WoR thing on Lupicus is in no way an exploit. Both Consecrated Ground and Wall of Reflection are doing exactly what they are supposed to do.
Is it bad design? Absolutely.
Should it be fixed? I say it should, not because I don’t like it, but because we all know what’s going to eventually happen if no changes are made on that wall :P