So why are AH guardian builds...

So why are AH guardian builds...

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Posted by: Wukunlin.8461

Wukunlin.8461

generally more accepted than shout heal warrior builds (which enough people should know they are horrible for PVE min/maxing by now)?

The best way to pump out boons is through shouts from a guardian, obviously there are other methods (virtues etc) but back when I ran AH builds I always felt AH procs from shouts heal me most. Which brings me to the next point…

If I remember correctly the majority of the AH procs from any skill heal a lot less than warrior shout heals, worse they are only self heals and the team gets almost 0 benefit from AH procs.

Why do we see a lot less facepalms to AH guardians comparing to shoutheal warriors?

(genuine question, not whining, complaining, or trolling etc….)

Oceanic [LOD]

(edited by Wukunlin.8461)

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Its a good point. I think people just see it as a waste for warriors not to maximise their dps. But surely you could take a shout heal warrior instead of a AH guard in some situations and have better overall dps.

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Posted by: The Mexican Cookie.3690

The Mexican Cookie.3690

Because one was deemed acceptable by a respected theory-crafter, and the other was not. Most people are sheep, they’ll accept what they’re told and not give it any second thought. As it is, I think both are kind of lame.

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Posted by: Delay.6908

Delay.6908

I also think it was because about 3-4 months ago (or a bit more?) there was this notion that 4 party members max out DPS, and one holds agro/tanks a bit. THe AH gives you personal healing to tank, and the guardian is a heavy class for more armor so it seemed to make sense. Warriors were put in the pure DPS group and stayed that way, but since the AH “tanky” guard was popularized back then, its still prevalent now since its not only easy to play, but offers good agro management. Or at least thats why i think the AH is still accepted somewhat.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

I would be interested to see shout warrior + 2 dps guards and 2dps wars in fractals. Would it work? You still have the reflects and you just have the anchor with more hp and better group heals.

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Posted by: Oranisagu.3706

Oranisagu.3706

maybe because a AH/shout guardian also converts conditions into boons (which the warri can’t. only cleanse with runes and he’ll have to give up runes with dmg stats). the guardian also is still quite tanky with zerker gear while being able to put out near-constant protection (if he uses hammer, which also is also useful with it’s short-cd blast finisher) or the occasional blind and a nice grouping pull with gs.

I’ve run my warri with healing shouts and tbh it felt weak. the only pro was the insane adrenalin generation which was useful with the old trait setup, where the +dmg for adrenalin was still easily reachable.

but instead of asking for someone else to form you an opinion (which is how I understand your question, no offense), why don’t you just run both specs for a while in different environments and reach your own conclusion? personally I find my guardian a lot more useful pugging in dungeons than my warri ever was, and if you don’t use crap gear you’ll still do more damage than most of your fellow puggers. if you’re in a dedicated group, your build has to synergize well with your mates and the forums won’t be able to give you useful information (at least not without knowing every build in the group).

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Posted by: Nikaido.3457

Nikaido.3457

You’re not really seeing the whole. Although I prefer running full DPS guard, AH aren’t bad training wheels and it’s one of the very few, actually working tanking builds of the game.
The difference between shout heal and AH? sustain and group support. A 3 shout bar war is only gimping his (and the group by not having a banner) dps while providing miserable support (a couple of 1K heal every 20 and 30 seconds..), guardians shouts actually have a strong supportive use and AH provides a lot of sustain with hammer symbol and empowering might proc. Plus the -33% damage reduction from Protection which is something warriors can’t do either. It’s not an instant burst heal like popping all three shout on a shout heal war but you heal a lot more over time through all the AH proc from shout, from empowering might, from your symbol of protection, from your virtues etc than you’d ever get from shout heal on war. Add reflection, aegis..

Shout heal is universally reviled because it goes against the nature of the warrior class, which really can’t do much outside of damage, damage and damage. So you’re traiting 30 into tactics to get some paltry heals but what else in terms of support are you going to bring? compared to guard this is different as night and day.

I can still see a use for AH in fractals 48 and I don’t really see a shout heal war being able to do this :
http://youtu.be/XzjBxKwXOpo

A lot of plain old facetanking involved in the later part of the video, keeping the ettin focused on the guard while the rest melee from behind.
An attempt from a shout heal war to facetank this would end in faceplanting into the ground.

- “No tears, please. It’s a waste of good suffering.”

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Posted by: Broadicea.8294

Broadicea.8294

-shouts from the warrior don’t heal for kitten
-AH procs are small but there’s a ton of them. Empowering Might is 5 ticks every proc. Virtues and Shouts do multiple since they give multiple boons. with hammer the symbol gives off a ton. Swap to staff for Empower and it’s a heal on par with Signet.
-lots of enemies do prioritize low HP/high toughness, which makes the Guardian more suitable for an aggro magnet
-what you lose in group damage output from a Guardian going AH instead of DPS isn’t as huge as the loss of a warrior going from DPS to shout heal/toughness build. There should only be one AH guard though, and really only in fractal 48. Elsewhere it’s not needed at all.

Retired. Too many casuals.

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Posted by: Guanglai Kangyi.4318

Guanglai Kangyi.4318

You want to know the reason? People are dumb. There is literally no better reason than that.

To be fair, though, most people are kicking AH guardians on sight now too. It may have been acceptable to run that build one month after launch but at this point it’s utterly ridiculous to still be relying on that kitten, unless you just got the game and haven’t been actively seeking advice from other players, in which case I guess it is excusable.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Yeah thanks for the clarification. Never played shout war or even looked into it, so was just curious to see peoples opinions with actual reasons. It would be nice if AH guard could heal the group a bit more but yeah the benefits of aegis, blind, protection and reflection outweight the natural tankyness of a warriors hp i suppose.

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Posted by: laharl.8435

laharl.8435

It also seems to me that shout heal warriors tend to use their shouts only when they need a heal, not for the utility of the shout. Shout heal warriors also often run PVT or Cleric’s gear. At least zerker AH guards are doing some damage and it’s easier for them to mob pull, mitigate the initial burst and sustain. I still use AH most of the time because I run so many pugs. If a guard were only doing guild runs then it’d be a different story.

(edited by laharl.8435)

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Posted by: Wukunlin.8461

Wukunlin.8461

I think I am starting to understand. Although from memory I remember getting 2k+ heals from those shout heal warrior pugs, they were prolly wearing clerics lol.

Subjectively I don’t find it worthwhile putting 30 traits in for PVE sustain. Aggro control should be manageable using knights gear alone. (funny thing is mossman goes after me more frequently after I started using berserkers ). But that’s just my opinion

Oceanic [LOD]

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

If anet unlocked levels 50+ fotm, a lot of people would change opinion on AH.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

If anet unlocked levels 50+ fotm, a lot of people would change opinion on AH.

better or worse?

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

better or worse?

Useless.

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Posted by: Neko.9021

Neko.9021

To be fair, a character with higher Toughness can be useful in some situations.

Actually, the main one is the first champions fight of the Harpie fractal where you want to pull the Ettin away from the party. In that specific situation I find it works out well.

But usually you do seem to be better off with 5 zerkers. And zerker guardian hits like a truck AND is incredibly utilitous.

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Posted by: Wesnoth.1705

Wesnoth.1705

. And zerker guardian hits like a truck AND is incredibly utilitous.

Screw warriors! I love my near immortal zerkerish guardian! NERF ME!

What you must learn in gw2 is to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6npO-NoOPOg

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Posted by: AndrewSX.3794

AndrewSX.3794

Because it’s incredibly easy to play while retaining a decent performance.

Seafarer’s Rest EU – PvE/WvW – 8 × 80 chars.
Most used: Guard/Mes/War/Nec/Ele.
Yes, i use 5 chars at time. Because REASONS.

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Posted by: swiftpaw.6397

swiftpaw.6397

Full clerics is op wut are u talking about.

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Posted by: TheMaskedParadigm.3629

TheMaskedParadigm.3629

I dropped AH a long time ago after noticing that aggro mechanics involve bosses deciding what to hit through some sort of fancy RNG. Even in Fractals, I don’t think I would want to take an AH Guardian. I guess it’s there for peace of mind if anything, but that doesn’t make it useful to me.

Brazil
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Posted by: Neko.9021

Neko.9021

The famous “proof” of the AH drawing aggro is the first part of the Harpie Fractal with the Flame Shaman and the Ettin. It does work there, really.

But I have a hard time finding another battle like that, or finding a battle where aggro AI can be manipulated in that manner.

It seems to me that it’s a case-by-case sort of thing, but other than that one fight, there’s a surprisingly small amount of battles where both:
-A. You want to draw aggro away from your group while everyone else DPSes
-B. The enemy AI actually falls for your shenanigans

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Posted by: Nike Porphyrogenita.8137

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137

The usefulness of an AH guardian varies with how useful a guardian with hammer as his main weapon is. The more an encounter wants a hammer guardian the more useful an AH guardian is. To me, this only occurs in high level fractals as others have cited.

It is also possible as Haviz said that fotm difficulty will get sufficiently tough at higher levels that even perma-protection+ring of warding for the party stops being useful for the bad trash pulls.

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Posted by: The Mexican Cookie.3690

The Mexican Cookie.3690

It is also possible as Haviz said that fotm difficulty will get sufficiently tough at higher levels that even perma-protection+ring of warding for the party stops being useful for the bad trash pulls.

I heard bad stories. Rumours of 20k+ heartseekers on cliffside and various auto attacks hitting for 10k+

Honestly I don’t even do fractals, I think it’s a really boring area. The damage numbers I listed could be present at 48 and I wouldn’t even know

#LoveArrows2013, never forget.

(edited by The Mexican Cookie.3690)

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Posted by: TheMaskedParadigm.3629

TheMaskedParadigm.3629

It is also possible as Haviz said that fotm difficulty will get sufficiently tough at higher levels that even perma-protection+ring of warding for the party stops being useful for the bad trash pulls.

I heard bad stories. Rumours of 20k+ heartseekers on cliffside and various auto attacks hitting for 10k+

Honestly I don’t even do fractals, I think it’s a really boring area. The damage numbers I listed could be present at 48 and I wouldn’t even know

It’s mainly the bugs or bad loot that ruin your time, not so much the trash mobs. AH doesn’t help with bugs and loot, but if it did, I would use it.

Brazil
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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

The famous “proof” of the AH drawing aggro is the first part of the Harpie Fractal with the Flame Shaman and the Ettin. It does work there, really.

But I have a hard time finding another battle like that, or finding a battle where aggro AI can be manipulated in that manner.

It seems to me that it’s a case-by-case sort of thing, but other than that one fight, there’s a surprisingly small amount of battles where both:
-A. You want to draw aggro away from your group while everyone else DPSes
-B. The enemy AI actually falls for your shenanigans

I tested AH guardian on something like lvl 65 and ettin was glued to our warrior for the entire fight.

It is also possible as Haviz said that fotm difficulty will get sufficiently tough at higher levels that even perma-protection+ring of warding for the party stops being useful for the bad trash pulls.

Even with prot some bosses instagib squishy proffesions like ele.

I heard bad stories. Rumours of 20k+ heartseekers on cliffside and various auto attacks hitting for 10k+

Honestly I don’t even do fractals, I think it’s a really boring area. The damage numbers I listed could be present at 48 and I wouldn’t even know

Cliffside mobs dont hit that much with heartseeker but their lotus strike can hit for 20k+.

(edited by haviz.1340)

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Yeah AH doesnt take aggro. The key to keeping ettin aggro on a guard is just making sure noone hits it except the guard. Ive kept it busy as a zerker guard plenty of times and the only times it doesnt work is because a pug hits it before me or does too much damage while im kiting it away.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

I think I am starting to understand. Although from memory I remember getting 2k+ heals from those shout heal warrior pugs, they were prolly wearing clerics lol.

Had to be; shout heals with no healing power from gear and 15 into Defense comes in at ~1,3K.

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Posted by: Player Character.9467

Player Character.9467

Ya 2k healing on a warrior shout is like 1k healing power iirc

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Posted by: Xhyros.1340

Xhyros.1340

Because 30 in Valor gives 30% crit damage. It also gives a tiny bit of crit rate with Retibutive Armor. Toughness also tends to play a role in aggro mechanics. I know I was being targetted a lot more in Knight’s armor compared to Berserker. 30 in Tactics gives boon duration, a stat, that while can increase damage output by increasing self provided might stacks by 30%, isn’t as strong as an extra 30% crit damage.

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Posted by: realloc.5846

realloc.5846

If anet unlocked levels 50+ fotm, a lot of people would change opinion on AH.

I dont understand what you are talking about.

I got my personal fractal lvl 80 in pugs month ago, and didnt really noticed any troubles with AH gs/staff build. Of course, mobs on lvl 70+ hit like a truck. But AH+PVT gear provides enough survivability, allowing you to care about your party more than about yourself.

(edited by realloc.5846)

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

I dont understand what you are talking about.

I got my personal fractal lvl 80 in pugs month ago, and didnt really noticed any troubles with AH gs/staff build. Of course, mobs on lvl 70+ hit like a truck. But AH+PVT gear provides enough survivability, allowing you to care about your party more than about yourself.

And I’ve got mine with 916 toughness, same with every member of the team. Getting hit for 25k+, once even for 48k by vets is not something you can tank or heal reliably. Not to mention that vets are much more durable than elites from standard dungeons (legendary dredge resonator).

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Posted by: realloc.5846

realloc.5846

And I’ve got mine with 916 toughness, same with every member of the team. Getting hit for 25k+, once even for 48k by vets is not something you can tank or heal reliably. Not to mention that vets are much more durable than elites from standard dungeons (legendary dredge resonator).

Looks like you had a constant party for high level fractals. Of course, it allow much more diversity in builds and tactics. But its really not a general case.

And i dont understand, why you mention only one-hit-ko attacks. There are a plenty of mobs in 70+ lvl fractals that hit for 4-5k, but do it often. I.E. kraits in oceanic fractal, non-vet dredges, some ascalon adds, etc. AH+PVT allows to withstand this income dps pressure while continue buffing/controlling/ressing, in contrast with other specs that have to focus only on evading/blocking without any useful contribution.

(edited by realloc.5846)

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

Looks like you had a constant party for high level fractals. Of course, it allow much more diversity in builds and tactics. But its really not a general case.

And i dont understand, why you mention only a one-hit-ko attacks. There are a plenty of mobs in 70+ lvl fractals that hit for 4-5k, but do it often. I.E. kraits in oceanic fractal, non-vet dredges, some ascalon adds, etc. AH+PVT allows to withstand this income dps pressure while continue buffing/controlling/ressing, in contrast with other specs that have to focus only on evading/blocking without any useful contribution.

Instead of withstanding pressure it’s better to los, cc and then burst group of mobs. It goes much smoother and currently I don’t even have guardian in the team.

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Posted by: TheMaskedParadigm.3629

TheMaskedParadigm.3629

PVT in level 80 Fractals…. It must take days to complete Dredge.

Brazil
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Posted by: realloc.5846

realloc.5846

PVT in level 80 Fractals…. It must take days to complete Dredge.

Actually, less than 1 hour. Guardian in PVT gives other enough freedom to use something more suitable for dps.

(edited by realloc.5846)

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

Guardian in PVT gives other enough freedom to use something more suitable for dps.

I used to think this way, and since then I’ve gone full zerker and never looked back. You just don’t need the extra tanking stats (vitality in particular is garbage) when you can do so much damage that you can solo grubs in seconds against Grawl boss (for instance).

I do have a knight’s set for some encounters where taking hits is inevitable or where I need a to be packing a ton of group condition management, but I never bust out my PVT set anymore unless I’m going into WvW with a zerg.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: TheMaskedParadigm.3629

TheMaskedParadigm.3629

PVT in level 80 Fractals…. It must take days to complete Dredge.

Actually, less than 1 hour. Guardian in PVT gives other enough freedom to use something more suitable for dps.

It actually doesn’t. It’s a crutch that makes people feel comfortable.

Brazil
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Posted by: swiftpaw.6397

swiftpaw.6397

I deleted my PVT set months ago.. kinda want the skins back off it now >_>

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

I deleted my PVT set months ago.. kinda want the skins back off it now >_>

Mine has sentimental value, but it just isn’t worth it to me to burn another 6 transmutation crystals just to recover the skins. Full Arah set and all.. /sigh

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Posted by: Player Character.9467

Player Character.9467

PVT in level 80 Fractals…. It must take days to complete Dredge.

Actually, less than 1 hour. Guardian in PVT gives other enough freedom to use something more suitable for dps.

See when an npc hits for 20k per hit, you MIGHT buy yourself another hit in full PTV, but you also bought the npc 6 more attempts to hit. Full PTV guardian also isn’t doing anything with their stats to help allies, so you’re not protecting them more now than without PTV and the npcs last longer.

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Posted by: swiftpaw.6397

swiftpaw.6397

When I used to run pvt I thought it was so good.. never tried anything else.. then one day I dunno maybe I was crazy or something, I put on a knights set and was like.. Oh.. How awkward, I actually survived better in it.. then I was like kitten this full zerks and it worked O_O

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Posted by: laharl.8435

laharl.8435

Ah, the days of my karma PVT-Longbow-heal shout warrior. I was unkillable!

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

I won’t lie, I definitely ran banner regeneration at one point in my life on my warrior. Never again.

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Posted by: Broadicea.8294

Broadicea.8294

When I used to run pvt I thought it was so good.. never tried anything else.. then one day I dunno maybe I was crazy or something, I put on a knights set and was like.. Oh.. How awkward, I actually survived better in it.. then I was like kitten this full zerks and it worked O_O

That’s exactly the journey I took on my guardian. If only I could get those first 400 or so hours of PVT-running back, they gave me such bad habits

Retired. Too many casuals.

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Posted by: SkyChef.5432

SkyChef.5432

PVT is cool only after playing berzerker all the time. You can afford dancing around, making mistake here & there and let your friends doing all the hard works, and rez them at the right time. And last one standing too. Just don’t let they know you wear PVT so transmute all your gears to CoF gears. Ugly but safe.

People are too serious of their knowledge.

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Posted by: Broadicea.8294

Broadicea.8294

PVT is cool only after playing berzerker all the time. You can afford dancing around, making mistake here & there and let your friends doing all the hard works, and rez them at the right time. And last one standing too. Just don’t let they know you wear PVT so transmute all your gears to CoF gears. Ugly but safe.

THAT’S why I’m always faceplanting in our fractal runs, you guys all switched to PVT and didn’t tell me

Retired. Too many casuals.

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Posted by: DEKeyzToChaos.7381

DEKeyzToChaos.7381

PVT is cool only after playing berzerker all the time. You can afford dancing around, making mistake here & there and let your friends doing all the hard works, and rez them at the right time. And last one standing too. Just don’t let they know you wear PVT so transmute all your gears to CoF gears. Ugly but safe.

And make sure you keep your matching CoF zerker set with scholars runes in the bag to ping.

THAT’S why I’m always faceplanting in our fractal runs, you guys all switched to PVT and didn’t tell me

Ohhh snap! He got wise to our shenanigans. Quick everyone, to CoF!

Back to the original topic… I had a shout heal hammer warr, and she was great for facetanking stuff in the old AC while my guildmates shot from a safe distance away. When we started attempting HotW P1, though, I noticed a huge difference in how well an AH guard could hold Ginva’s aggro (Ginva would stick on the guard for the whole battle) compared to the shout heal warr (couldn’t be less interested). Of course the shout heal warr was more effective at saving said guildmates when they continued shooting while Ginva was reflecting projectiles…

(edited by DEKeyzToChaos.7381)

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Posted by: DargorV.8571

DargorV.8571

I won’t lie, I definitely ran banner regeneration at one point in my life on my warrior. Never again.

You were doing it wrong then, as far as dungeons/pve go, banner warriors with the new regen signet are able to facetank a lot of crap, possibly even more than guardians. Add in adrenal health, cleric trinkets and regen food and you easily get 1k passive regen per sec without having to push any button. No other class can come even close on that field.

[inb4glasscanons&pvpfreakscomeinflaming]

(edited by DargorV.8571)

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Posted by: Emanuel.9781

Emanuel.9781

I won’t lie, I definitely ran banner regeneration at one point in my life on my warrior. Never again.

You were doing it wrong then, as far as dungeons/pve go, banner warriors with the new regen signet are able to facetank a lot of crap, possibly even more than guardians. Add in adrenal health, cleric trinkets and regen food and you easily get 1k passive regen per sec without having to push any button. No other class can come even close on that field.

[inb4glasscanons&pvpfreakscomeinflaming]

Meanwhile, i deal extreme amounts of DPS with full berserker Axe/Mace while getting ~700 HP/s from the healing signet + Omnomberry Ghost(~340 heal on crit, 1 second internal cooldown, 90%+ crit chance at all times).

While facetanking things are cool for a while, you may want to reconsider builds for dungeons.

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Posted by: Player Character.9467

Player Character.9467

I won’t lie, I definitely ran banner regeneration at one point in my life on my warrior. Never again.

You were doing it wrong then, as far as dungeons/pve go, banner warriors with the new regen signet are able to facetank a lot of crap, possibly even more than guardians. Add in adrenal health, cleric trinkets and regen food and you easily get 1k passive regen per sec without having to push any button. No other class can come even close on that field.

[inb4glasscanons&pvpfreakscomeinflaming]

Meanwhile, i deal extreme amounts of DPS with full berserker Axe/Mace while getting ~700 HP/s from the healing signet + Omnomberry Ghost(~340 heal on crit, 1 second internal cooldown, 90%+ crit chance at all times).

While facetanking things are cool for a while, you may want to reconsider builds for dungeons.

Ya I wouldn’t run a banner cleric build in a dungeon because you’re basically increasing the difficulty for everybody else in your party. Providing regen but no protection/spike healing while lengthening the encounter only increases the odds of your zerkers being 1 or 2shot by bosses. The only place I currently ever run a banner regen build is if I feel like being a lazy backliner in wvw, providing regen to 15 people. If we ever get real multigroup pve (raids) then this might actually become a decent totem build. Organize your player placements and you can drop a banner of defense on your tank(s), tactics on yourself and others focusing on heals/boons, discipline/strength on your dps. Regens any1 who kitten ed an aoe, is offtanking, etc and provides the banner buffs where they’ll be relevant.