(edited by Wukunlin.8461)
So why are AH guardian builds...
Its a good point. I think people just see it as a waste for warriors not to maximise their dps. But surely you could take a shout heal warrior instead of a AH guard in some situations and have better overall dps.
Because one was deemed acceptable by a respected theory-crafter, and the other was not. Most people are sheep, they’ll accept what they’re told and not give it any second thought. As it is, I think both are kind of lame.
I also think it was because about 3-4 months ago (or a bit more?) there was this notion that 4 party members max out DPS, and one holds agro/tanks a bit. THe AH gives you personal healing to tank, and the guardian is a heavy class for more armor so it seemed to make sense. Warriors were put in the pure DPS group and stayed that way, but since the AH “tanky” guard was popularized back then, its still prevalent now since its not only easy to play, but offers good agro management. Or at least thats why i think the AH is still accepted somewhat.
I would be interested to see shout warrior + 2 dps guards and 2dps wars in fractals. Would it work? You still have the reflects and you just have the anchor with more hp and better group heals.
maybe because a AH/shout guardian also converts conditions into boons (which the warri can’t. only cleanse with runes and he’ll have to give up runes with dmg stats). the guardian also is still quite tanky with zerker gear while being able to put out near-constant protection (if he uses hammer, which also is also useful with it’s short-cd blast finisher) or the occasional blind and a nice grouping pull with gs.
I’ve run my warri with healing shouts and tbh it felt weak. the only pro was the insane adrenalin generation which was useful with the old trait setup, where the +dmg for adrenalin was still easily reachable.
but instead of asking for someone else to form you an opinion (which is how I understand your question, no offense), why don’t you just run both specs for a while in different environments and reach your own conclusion? personally I find my guardian a lot more useful pugging in dungeons than my warri ever was, and if you don’t use crap gear you’ll still do more damage than most of your fellow puggers. if you’re in a dedicated group, your build has to synergize well with your mates and the forums won’t be able to give you useful information (at least not without knowing every build in the group).
You’re not really seeing the whole. Although I prefer running full DPS guard, AH aren’t bad training wheels and it’s one of the very few, actually working tanking builds of the game.
The difference between shout heal and AH? sustain and group support. A 3 shout bar war is only gimping his (and the group by not having a banner) dps while providing miserable support (a couple of 1K heal every 20 and 30 seconds..), guardians shouts actually have a strong supportive use and AH provides a lot of sustain with hammer symbol and empowering might proc. Plus the -33% damage reduction from Protection which is something warriors can’t do either. It’s not an instant burst heal like popping all three shout on a shout heal war but you heal a lot more over time through all the AH proc from shout, from empowering might, from your symbol of protection, from your virtues etc than you’d ever get from shout heal on war. Add reflection, aegis..
Shout heal is universally reviled because it goes against the nature of the warrior class, which really can’t do much outside of damage, damage and damage. So you’re traiting 30 into tactics to get some paltry heals but what else in terms of support are you going to bring? compared to guard this is different as night and day.
I can still see a use for AH in fractals 48 and I don’t really see a shout heal war being able to do this :
http://youtu.be/XzjBxKwXOpo
A lot of plain old facetanking involved in the later part of the video, keeping the ettin focused on the guard while the rest melee from behind.
An attempt from a shout heal war to facetank this would end in faceplanting into the ground.
-shouts from the warrior don’t heal for kitten
-AH procs are small but there’s a ton of them. Empowering Might is 5 ticks every proc. Virtues and Shouts do multiple since they give multiple boons. with hammer the symbol gives off a ton. Swap to staff for Empower and it’s a heal on par with Signet.
-lots of enemies do prioritize low HP/high toughness, which makes the Guardian more suitable for an aggro magnet
-what you lose in group damage output from a Guardian going AH instead of DPS isn’t as huge as the loss of a warrior going from DPS to shout heal/toughness build. There should only be one AH guard though, and really only in fractal 48. Elsewhere it’s not needed at all.
You want to know the reason? People are dumb. There is literally no better reason than that.
To be fair, though, most people are kicking AH guardians on sight now too. It may have been acceptable to run that build one month after launch but at this point it’s utterly ridiculous to still be relying on that kitten, unless you just got the game and haven’t been actively seeking advice from other players, in which case I guess it is excusable.
Yeah thanks for the clarification. Never played shout war or even looked into it, so was just curious to see peoples opinions with actual reasons. It would be nice if AH guard could heal the group a bit more but yeah the benefits of aegis, blind, protection and reflection outweight the natural tankyness of a warriors hp i suppose.
It also seems to me that shout heal warriors tend to use their shouts only when they need a heal, not for the utility of the shout. Shout heal warriors also often run PVT or Cleric’s gear. At least zerker AH guards are doing some damage and it’s easier for them to mob pull, mitigate the initial burst and sustain. I still use AH most of the time because I run so many pugs. If a guard were only doing guild runs then it’d be a different story.
(edited by laharl.8435)
I think I am starting to understand. Although from memory I remember getting 2k+ heals from those shout heal warrior pugs, they were prolly wearing clerics lol.
Subjectively I don’t find it worthwhile putting 30 traits in for PVE sustain. Aggro control should be manageable using knights gear alone. (funny thing is mossman goes after me more frequently after I started using berserkers ). But that’s just my opinion
If anet unlocked levels 50+ fotm, a lot of people would change opinion on AH.
If anet unlocked levels 50+ fotm, a lot of people would change opinion on AH.
better or worse?
better or worse?
Useless.
To be fair, a character with higher Toughness can be useful in some situations.
Actually, the main one is the first champions fight of the Harpie fractal where you want to pull the Ettin away from the party. In that specific situation I find it works out well.
But usually you do seem to be better off with 5 zerkers. And zerker guardian hits like a truck AND is incredibly utilitous.
. And zerker guardian hits like a truck AND is incredibly utilitous.
Screw warriors! I love my near immortal zerkerish guardian! NERF ME!
Because it’s incredibly easy to play while retaining a decent performance.
Most used: Guard/Mes/War/Nec/Ele.
Yes, i use 5 chars at time. Because REASONS.
Full clerics is op wut are u talking about.
|-Swiftpaw Sharpclaw [DnT]-|
I dropped AH a long time ago after noticing that aggro mechanics involve bosses deciding what to hit through some sort of fancy RNG. Even in Fractals, I don’t think I would want to take an AH Guardian. I guess it’s there for peace of mind if anything, but that doesn’t make it useful to me.
Youtube Channel – http://www.youtube.com/t3llularman
The famous “proof” of the AH drawing aggro is the first part of the Harpie Fractal with the Flame Shaman and the Ettin. It does work there, really.
But I have a hard time finding another battle like that, or finding a battle where aggro AI can be manipulated in that manner.
It seems to me that it’s a case-by-case sort of thing, but other than that one fight, there’s a surprisingly small amount of battles where both:
-A. You want to draw aggro away from your group while everyone else DPSes
-B. The enemy AI actually falls for your shenanigans
The usefulness of an AH guardian varies with how useful a guardian with hammer as his main weapon is. The more an encounter wants a hammer guardian the more useful an AH guardian is. To me, this only occurs in high level fractals as others have cited.
It is also possible as Haviz said that fotm difficulty will get sufficiently tough at higher levels that even perma-protection+ring of warding for the party stops being useful for the bad trash pulls.
It is also possible as Haviz said that fotm difficulty will get sufficiently tough at higher levels that even perma-protection+ring of warding for the party stops being useful for the bad trash pulls.
I heard bad stories. Rumours of 20k+ heartseekers on cliffside and various auto attacks hitting for 10k+
Honestly I don’t even do fractals, I think it’s a really boring area. The damage numbers I listed could be present at 48 and I wouldn’t even know
(edited by The Mexican Cookie.3690)
It is also possible as Haviz said that fotm difficulty will get sufficiently tough at higher levels that even perma-protection+ring of warding for the party stops being useful for the bad trash pulls.
I heard bad stories. Rumours of 20k+ heartseekers on cliffside and various auto attacks hitting for 10k+
Honestly I don’t even do fractals, I think it’s a really boring area. The damage numbers I listed could be present at 48 and I wouldn’t even know
It’s mainly the bugs or bad loot that ruin your time, not so much the trash mobs. AH doesn’t help with bugs and loot, but if it did, I would use it.
Youtube Channel – http://www.youtube.com/t3llularman
The famous “proof” of the AH drawing aggro is the first part of the Harpie Fractal with the Flame Shaman and the Ettin. It does work there, really.
But I have a hard time finding another battle like that, or finding a battle where aggro AI can be manipulated in that manner.
It seems to me that it’s a case-by-case sort of thing, but other than that one fight, there’s a surprisingly small amount of battles where both:
-A. You want to draw aggro away from your group while everyone else DPSes
-B. The enemy AI actually falls for your shenanigans
I tested AH guardian on something like lvl 65 and ettin was glued to our warrior for the entire fight.
It is also possible as Haviz said that fotm difficulty will get sufficiently tough at higher levels that even perma-protection+ring of warding for the party stops being useful for the bad trash pulls.
Even with prot some bosses instagib squishy proffesions like ele.
I heard bad stories. Rumours of 20k+ heartseekers on cliffside and various auto attacks hitting for 10k+
Honestly I don’t even do fractals, I think it’s a really boring area. The damage numbers I listed could be present at 48 and I wouldn’t even know
Cliffside mobs dont hit that much with heartseeker but their lotus strike can hit for 20k+.
(edited by haviz.1340)
Yeah AH doesnt take aggro. The key to keeping ettin aggro on a guard is just making sure noone hits it except the guard. Ive kept it busy as a zerker guard plenty of times and the only times it doesnt work is because a pug hits it before me or does too much damage while im kiting it away.
I think I am starting to understand. Although from memory I remember getting 2k+ heals from those shout heal warrior pugs, they were prolly wearing clerics lol.
Had to be; shout heals with no healing power from gear and 15 into Defense comes in at ~1,3K.
Ya 2k healing on a warrior shout is like 1k healing power iirc
Because 30 in Valor gives 30% crit damage. It also gives a tiny bit of crit rate with Retibutive Armor. Toughness also tends to play a role in aggro mechanics. I know I was being targetted a lot more in Knight’s armor compared to Berserker. 30 in Tactics gives boon duration, a stat, that while can increase damage output by increasing self provided might stacks by 30%, isn’t as strong as an extra 30% crit damage.
If anet unlocked levels 50+ fotm, a lot of people would change opinion on AH.
I dont understand what you are talking about.
I got my personal fractal lvl 80 in pugs month ago, and didnt really noticed any troubles with AH gs/staff build. Of course, mobs on lvl 70+ hit like a truck. But AH+PVT gear provides enough survivability, allowing you to care about your party more than about yourself.
(edited by realloc.5846)
I dont understand what you are talking about.
I got my personal fractal lvl 80 in pugs month ago, and didnt really noticed any troubles with AH gs/staff build. Of course, mobs on lvl 70+ hit like a truck. But AH+PVT gear provides enough survivability, allowing you to care about your party more than about yourself.
And I’ve got mine with 916 toughness, same with every member of the team. Getting hit for 25k+, once even for 48k by vets is not something you can tank or heal reliably. Not to mention that vets are much more durable than elites from standard dungeons (legendary dredge resonator).
And I’ve got mine with 916 toughness, same with every member of the team. Getting hit for 25k+, once even for 48k by vets is not something you can tank or heal reliably. Not to mention that vets are much more durable than elites from standard dungeons (legendary dredge resonator).
Looks like you had a constant party for high level fractals. Of course, it allow much more diversity in builds and tactics. But its really not a general case.
And i dont understand, why you mention only one-hit-ko attacks. There are a plenty of mobs in 70+ lvl fractals that hit for 4-5k, but do it often. I.E. kraits in oceanic fractal, non-vet dredges, some ascalon adds, etc. AH+PVT allows to withstand this income dps pressure while continue buffing/controlling/ressing, in contrast with other specs that have to focus only on evading/blocking without any useful contribution.
(edited by realloc.5846)
Looks like you had a constant party for high level fractals. Of course, it allow much more diversity in builds and tactics. But its really not a general case.
And i dont understand, why you mention only a one-hit-ko attacks. There are a plenty of mobs in 70+ lvl fractals that hit for 4-5k, but do it often. I.E. kraits in oceanic fractal, non-vet dredges, some ascalon adds, etc. AH+PVT allows to withstand this income dps pressure while continue buffing/controlling/ressing, in contrast with other specs that have to focus only on evading/blocking without any useful contribution.
Instead of withstanding pressure it’s better to los, cc and then burst group of mobs. It goes much smoother and currently I don’t even have guardian in the team.
PVT in level 80 Fractals…. It must take days to complete Dredge.
Youtube Channel – http://www.youtube.com/t3llularman
PVT in level 80 Fractals…. It must take days to complete Dredge.
Actually, less than 1 hour. Guardian in PVT gives other enough freedom to use something more suitable for dps.
(edited by realloc.5846)
Guardian in PVT gives other enough freedom to use something more suitable for dps.
I used to think this way, and since then I’ve gone full zerker and never looked back. You just don’t need the extra tanking stats (vitality in particular is garbage) when you can do so much damage that you can solo grubs in seconds against Grawl boss (for instance).
I do have a knight’s set for some encounters where taking hits is inevitable or where I need a to be packing a ton of group condition management, but I never bust out my PVT set anymore unless I’m going into WvW with a zerg.
PVT in level 80 Fractals…. It must take days to complete Dredge.
Actually, less than 1 hour. Guardian in PVT gives other enough freedom to use something more suitable for dps.
It actually doesn’t. It’s a crutch that makes people feel comfortable.
Youtube Channel – http://www.youtube.com/t3llularman
I deleted my PVT set months ago.. kinda want the skins back off it now >_>
|-Swiftpaw Sharpclaw [DnT]-|
I deleted my PVT set months ago.. kinda want the skins back off it now >_>
Mine has sentimental value, but it just isn’t worth it to me to burn another 6 transmutation crystals just to recover the skins. Full Arah set and all.. /sigh
PVT in level 80 Fractals…. It must take days to complete Dredge.
Actually, less than 1 hour. Guardian in PVT gives other enough freedom to use something more suitable for dps.
See when an npc hits for 20k per hit, you MIGHT buy yourself another hit in full PTV, but you also bought the npc 6 more attempts to hit. Full PTV guardian also isn’t doing anything with their stats to help allies, so you’re not protecting them more now than without PTV and the npcs last longer.
When I used to run pvt I thought it was so good.. never tried anything else.. then one day I dunno maybe I was crazy or something, I put on a knights set and was like.. Oh.. How awkward, I actually survived better in it.. then I was like kitten this full zerks and it worked O_O
|-Swiftpaw Sharpclaw [DnT]-|
Ah, the days of my karma PVT-Longbow-heal shout warrior. I was unkillable!
I won’t lie, I definitely ran banner regeneration at one point in my life on my warrior. Never again.
When I used to run pvt I thought it was so good.. never tried anything else.. then one day I dunno maybe I was crazy or something, I put on a knights set and was like.. Oh.. How awkward, I actually survived better in it.. then I was like kitten this full zerks and it worked O_O
That’s exactly the journey I took on my guardian. If only I could get those first 400 or so hours of PVT-running back, they gave me such bad habits
PVT is cool only after playing berzerker all the time. You can afford dancing around, making mistake here & there and let your friends doing all the hard works, and rez them at the right time. And last one standing too. Just don’t let they know you wear PVT so transmute all your gears to CoF gears. Ugly but safe.
PVT is cool only after playing berzerker all the time. You can afford dancing around, making mistake here & there and let your friends doing all the hard works, and rez them at the right time. And last one standing too. Just don’t let they know you wear PVT so transmute all your gears to CoF gears. Ugly but safe.
THAT’S why I’m always faceplanting in our fractal runs, you guys all switched to PVT and didn’t tell me
PVT is cool only after playing berzerker all the time. You can afford dancing around, making mistake here & there and let your friends doing all the hard works, and rez them at the right time. And last one standing too. Just don’t let they know you wear PVT so transmute all your gears to CoF gears. Ugly but safe.
And make sure you keep your matching CoF zerker set with scholars runes in the bag to ping.
THAT’S why I’m always faceplanting in our fractal runs, you guys all switched to PVT and didn’t tell me
Ohhh snap! He got wise to our shenanigans. Quick everyone, to CoF!
Back to the original topic… I had a shout heal hammer warr, and she was great for facetanking stuff in the old AC while my guildmates shot from a safe distance away. When we started attempting HotW P1, though, I noticed a huge difference in how well an AH guard could hold Ginva’s aggro (Ginva would stick on the guard for the whole battle) compared to the shout heal warr (couldn’t be less interested). Of course the shout heal warr was more effective at saving said guildmates when they continued shooting while Ginva was reflecting projectiles…
(edited by DEKeyzToChaos.7381)
I won’t lie, I definitely ran banner regeneration at one point in my life on my warrior. Never again.
You were doing it wrong then, as far as dungeons/pve go, banner warriors with the new regen signet are able to facetank a lot of crap, possibly even more than guardians. Add in adrenal health, cleric trinkets and regen food and you easily get 1k passive regen per sec without having to push any button. No other class can come even close on that field.
[inb4glasscanons&pvpfreakscomeinflaming]
(edited by DargorV.8571)
I won’t lie, I definitely ran banner regeneration at one point in my life on my warrior. Never again.
You were doing it wrong then, as far as dungeons/pve go, banner warriors with the new regen signet are able to facetank a lot of crap, possibly even more than guardians. Add in adrenal health, cleric trinkets and regen food and you easily get 1k passive regen per sec without having to push any button. No other class can come even close on that field.
[inb4glasscanons&pvpfreakscomeinflaming]
Meanwhile, i deal extreme amounts of DPS with full berserker Axe/Mace while getting ~700 HP/s from the healing signet + Omnomberry Ghost(~340 heal on crit, 1 second internal cooldown, 90%+ crit chance at all times).
While facetanking things are cool for a while, you may want to reconsider builds for dungeons.
NemesisMMNecro [rT] – Trans-Transsylvanian RPer EU
I won’t lie, I definitely ran banner regeneration at one point in my life on my warrior. Never again.
You were doing it wrong then, as far as dungeons/pve go, banner warriors with the new regen signet are able to facetank a lot of crap, possibly even more than guardians. Add in adrenal health, cleric trinkets and regen food and you easily get 1k passive regen per sec without having to push any button. No other class can come even close on that field.
[inb4glasscanons&pvpfreakscomeinflaming]
Meanwhile, i deal extreme amounts of DPS with full berserker Axe/Mace while getting ~700 HP/s from the healing signet + Omnomberry Ghost(~340 heal on crit, 1 second internal cooldown, 90%+ crit chance at all times).
While facetanking things are cool for a while, you may want to reconsider builds for dungeons.
Ya I wouldn’t run a banner cleric build in a dungeon because you’re basically increasing the difficulty for everybody else in your party. Providing regen but no protection/spike healing while lengthening the encounter only increases the odds of your zerkers being 1 or 2shot by bosses. The only place I currently ever run a banner regen build is if I feel like being a lazy backliner in wvw, providing regen to 15 people. If we ever get real multigroup pve (raids) then this might actually become a decent totem build. Organize your player placements and you can drop a banner of defense on your tank(s), tactics on yourself and others focusing on heals/boons, discipline/strength on your dps. Regens any1 who kitten ed an aoe, is offtanking, etc and provides the banner buffs where they’ll be relevant.