Spider Queen Change!

Spider Queen Change!

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

Quote from a guildie on our TS
Concerning The Spider Queen:

She’s still easy to kill with a strong serk stack
You just gotta keep elite while kicking those bads

My input for a-net:

You may have thought to yourselves “great way to discourage stacking/serking meta”
But the truth is that changes like this will make stacking/serking meta more important
And encourage the already existing problem of elitism and dungeon kicking

Don’t confuse what this post is about
It isn’t about “The Spider Queen” ~ I see no problem with it in dynamic
The problem exists with the encouragement of elitism
This is not entirely a-net’s fault!
The player community is responsible for responding with elitism
But can you blame them considering the dynamic of the content provided?

Here is a link to a previous post that I had written
It well explains the existing problem with elitism and how it effects the community
-> https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Kick-From-Party-Abuse-Suggestion/first

Guild Wars 2 is my favored game and I enjoy all of it’s content
But whatever it is that you do with your new content
Make sure that it encourages build/gear diversity and new combat dynamics
Rather than discourage it even further

I use the name Barbie on all of my characters.

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Posted by: winterchillz.2564

winterchillz.2564

I have some bad news for your guildie then.

There will be speed clear parties and relaxed parties as usual; And the party acceptance criteria would remain the same regardless of the changes ANet makes to the different bosses.

The different is that the first party would complete the dungeon within 15-20 minutes (I guess, never been into a speed clear?) with a wipe or two if they don’t get lucky, while the second party will complete it for like 35-40 minutes with two or three wipes.

I very rarely pug any dungeons but when I do I always form a party and advertise it as “xx path | 5k+ cookies | ping cake” or something and I almost always get laid back people. We wipe every now and then, I sometimes get nervous too, but that’s not a reason to kick someone or act “elitist”.

For an example, guildie wiped 6-7 times at the skips in TA forward and he eventually gave up. c:

So yea, if you don’t want to run dungeons with players who have the mentality that you pointed, just be original when advertising your party … or just say “casual”.

Cloud of Sparrows
Fluffiest Blood Legion Charr
“At least I die knowing my sisters are free”

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Posted by: Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

You’ve missed the point of this post entirely, winterchillz
And very much so misread the point & purpose of the quote listed

The quote is simply pointing out a real life example of an already elitist player’s response to a change such as the recent Spider Queen
Which is: Become more elitist and give even less room for new or casual players

Casual PUGing won’t be available for very much longer if they keep adding changes that encourage if not “demand” very elite berserker compositions

Do I need to point out and remind everyone that:
Ascalon Catacombs is labeled and is supposed to be: (required level 35)
Not (required level 80 ascended berserker)

I mean come on
I expect elitism in Arah or Fractals but we are talking about Ascalon Catacombs here
Leave something for the new or casual players to do

I use the name Barbie on all of my characters.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Look. Anet is just doing what the loud forum majority wanted. When people said “dungeons suck because spider queen” they listened. And when we dungeon forum regulars told them this very change was not a solution they called us dumb elitists. Just like the bloodstone dust nerf. You asked. They delivered.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: stachekiller.2591

stachekiller.2591

I actually don’t think this encourages elitism. I think it helps people new to dungeons be forced to learn some mechanics. I went with two casual groups yesterday and cleared the spider queen in about the same time as before with no wipes because we went in together to clear the gargoyles and then people actually saw the spider queen AOE on the ground and dodged out of it. I think this has the potential to make players better overall by forcing them to learn a core mechanic. “Elitists” might try to stick to the old way of doing it and FGS the thing in that corner, but to the credit of the PUGs I played with they adapted quickly and successfully. Once enough people run through it I doubt the elitist mindset your guildie had above will really resonate.

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Posted by: CuRtoKy.8576

CuRtoKy.8576

Look. Anet is just doing what the loud forum majority wanted. When people said “dungeons suck because spider queen” they listened. And when we dungeon forum regulars told them this very change was not a solution they called us dumb elitists. Just like the bloodstone dust nerf. You asked. They delivered.

Yup which shows the people who wanted this change didn’t really understand how dungeons work or the implications of the change.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Look. Anet is just doing what the loud forum majority wanted. When people said “dungeons suck because spider queen” they listened. And when we dungeon forum regulars told them this very change was not a solution they called us dumb elitists. Just like the bloodstone dust nerf. You asked. They delivered.

Yup which shows the people who wanted this change didn’t really understand how dungeons work or the implications of the change.

Yep. Which we also told them.

Lol

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

I actually don’t think this encourages elitism. I think it helps people new to dungeons be forced to learn some mechanics. I went with two casual groups yesterday and cleared the spider queen in about the same time as before with no wipes because we went in together to clear the gargoyles and then people actually saw the spider queen AOE on the ground and dodged out of it. I think this has the potential to make players better overall by forcing them to learn a core mechanic. “Elitists” might try to stick to the old way of doing it and FGS the thing in that corner, but to the credit of the PUGs I played with they adapted quickly and successfully. Once enough people run through it I doubt the elitist mindset your guildie had above will really resonate.

It does nothing BUT encourage elitism
Remember that elitism is not about player skill/experience or wisdom
Elitism is about what you’re wearing, if you can afford it and if you’re using meta

It does nothing BUT encourage elitism
Now in PUGs, you won’t be accepted unless you are using a perfect serk meta in AC
Because people want to complete the dungeon run in 15 minutes, not 45 minutes
No one has time, nor would they want, to dance around The Spider Queen
For 20 to 30 minutes, while wearing Cleric’s gear, before killing it
Especially when considering the grind required to build ascended gear

And again, this is supposed to be the introduction dungeon
The first dungeon in the game, able to be completed with level 35 characters

Changes like this are bad because they eliminate a middle ground difficulty mode
You essentially go from “easy explorable maps”
To “UBER hard required level 80 ascended Berserker mode”
There are no middle ground stepping stones for new/casual players
To learn and build wealth, to prepare for such challenges

I use the name Barbie on all of my characters.

(edited by Trevor Boyer.6524)

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

I actually don’t think this encourages elitism. I think it helps people new to dungeons be forced to learn some mechanics. I went with two casual groups yesterday and cleared the spider queen in about the same time as before with no wipes because we went in together to clear the gargoyles and then people actually saw the spider queen AOE on the ground and dodged out of it. I think this has the potential to make players better overall by forcing them to learn a core mechanic. “Elitists” might try to stick to the old way of doing it and FGS the thing in that corner, but to the credit of the PUGs I played with they adapted quickly and successfully. Once enough people run through it I doubt the elitist mindset your guildie had above will really resonate.

It does nothing BUT encourage elitism
Remember that elitism is not about player skill/experience or wisdom
Elitism is about what you’re wearing, if you can afford it and if you’re using meta

It does nothing BUT encourage elitism
Now in PUGs, you won’t be accepted unless you are using a perfect serk meta in AC
Because people want to complete the dungeon run in 15 minutes, not 45 minutes
No one has time, nor would they want, to dance around The Spider Queen
For 20 to 30 minutes, while wearing Cleric’s gear, before killing it
Especially when considering the grind required to build ascended gear

And again, this is supposed to be the introduction dungeon
The first dungeon in the game, able to be completed with level 35 characters

What’s serk?

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: DigitalKirin.9714

DigitalKirin.9714

What’s serk?

A type of coat.

Genevieve Talbot [NP] – Noble Phantasm on Stormbluff Isle

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Posted by: No Pulse.2967

No Pulse.2967

I think he meant zergburgers.

Inactive member in Dark Renegatus [REN]
The Order of Calamity [OOC] is recruiting!
5/8 Champion titles

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

I think he meant zergburgers.

I want me some of those.

Attachments:

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: CuRtoKy.8576

CuRtoKy.8576

I actually don’t think this encourages elitism. I think it helps people new to dungeons be forced to learn some mechanics. I went with two casual groups yesterday and cleared the spider queen in about the same time as before with no wipes because we went in together to clear the gargoyles and then people actually saw the spider queen AOE on the ground and dodged out of it. I think this has the potential to make players better overall by forcing them to learn a core mechanic. “Elitists” might try to stick to the old way of doing it and FGS the thing in that corner, but to the credit of the PUGs I played with they adapted quickly and successfully. Once enough people run through it I doubt the elitist mindset your guildie had above will really resonate.

It does nothing BUT encourage elitism
Remember that elitism is not about player skill/experience or wisdom
Elitism is about what you’re wearing, if you can afford it and if you’re using meta

It does nothing BUT encourage elitism
Now in PUGs, you won’t be accepted unless you are using a perfect serk meta in AC
Because people want to complete the dungeon run in 15 minutes, not 45 minutes
No one has time, nor would they want, to dance around The Spider Queen
For 20 to 30 minutes, while wearing Cleric’s gear, before killing it
Especially when considering the grind required to build ascended gear

And again, this is supposed to be the introduction dungeon
The first dungeon in the game, able to be completed with level 35 characters

That isn’t even elitism o.o what

Don’t like berserker? Don’t like stacking? Don’t want to LoS? Only want to Range? Well make your own LFG I don’t see what the problem is.

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Posted by: IllegalChocolate.6938

IllegalChocolate.6938

Am I the only one here that knows that you can still solo face tank Spider Queen in straight toughness gear?

You can 3 man p2 boss in straight zerker in a single phase, you can spare a person to go PvT.

Borrows in path 1 and path 3 can be 3 manned without ice bow, this topic is out of control, you don’t need 5 zerker anything especially in AC to power down and kill stuff before they can even flinch.

(edited by IllegalChocolate.6938)

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Posted by: dutchiez.7502

dutchiez.7502

It’s funny how the Queen now won’t come into melee range unless you stack behind a corner.

Nova [rT]

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Posted by: Tachii.3506

Tachii.3506

This is just a temporary period where people get used to the new mechanic.

The dungeon regulars will still FGS stack, but from my #puglyfe group we’ll just open field the Queen which take maybe 2-3mins longer.

SBI – Thief and the occasional Guardian & Warrior.

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Posted by: RemiRome.8495

RemiRome.8495

Borrows in path 1 and path 3 can be 3 manned without ice bow,

Solo’d (Duo’d)*

3 people is overkill

You can 3 man p2 boss in straight zerker in a single phase, you can spare a person to go PvT.

You can 3 man with only 1 person wearing berserker gear too. No idea what the other two was wearing but they were WvW players and ate the aoes for breakfast.

It’s funny how the Queen now won’t come into melee range unless you stack behind a corner.

pretty sure she didn’t do that before either. ranging was a complete joke. strafe a bit every x seconds.

Remember that elitism is not about player skill/experience or wisdom
Elitism is about what you’re wearing, if you can afford it and if you’re using meta

This doesn’t make any sense at all.

(edited by RemiRome.8495)

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Posted by: dutchiez.7502

dutchiez.7502

pretty sure she didn’t do that before either. ranging was a complete joke. strafe a bit every x seconds.

Really? I wouldn’t know, I’m just a dumb little zurgburger

Nova [rT]

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Posted by: dlonie.6547

dlonie.6547

Am I the only one here that knows that you can still solo face tank Spider Queen in straight toughness gear?

I just wrote this up before I saw your post: linky

Nope. It’s impossible to fight queen in anything but zerks. I need an aspirin.

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Posted by: deSade.9437

deSade.9437

Really? I wouldn’t know, I’m just a dumb little zurgburger

Loooool. Zurgburger.

Ugh, plz don’t report me.
Ok say something meaningful, say something meaningful that contributes to the discussion…
Eh…
Uh…
Potato.
Fiery greatsword.
Eeeeeeeeee!
/faints

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Posted by: Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

You’re all missing the point, that or trolling

The point is that the change changes nothing for anyone except inexperienced players
Everyone will still demand stacking and serking
And if you can’t do that with them, you’ll be booted out of the party

AC was once a good middle ground dungeon for newcomers
Now it will be elitist choice in PUG groups so that they still stack/easy kill Queen
For their fast run rewards

Again, the change promotes elitism in a level 35 dungeon
Where people are supposed to be able to walk in with level 35 characters
Wearing masterwork green gear
I’d like to see you solo The Spider Queen at level 35, wearing masterwork green gear
Let alone, bunk her AoE wells with a level 35 party, wearing masterwork green gear
Or even kill her in a reasonable time frame kiting, with a level 35 masterwork party

These sorts of changes need to be better thought out so that they don’t nuke the chance for a newcomer to even be able to PUG a group to begin with, let alone stay in when they find out he isn’t using berserker meta

Those of you who are posting and saying that “this change didn’t effect me much”
Are clearly daily players who know what they are doing by the use of your terminology and knowledge of the game
This thread is not for you!
This thread is concerning people who don’t get the time that you have to play GW2
And completely master every dungeon run in the game, from front to back

In a nutshell:

As an experienced player, this change doesn’t effect me
But as a Guild Leader, I now have more hand-holding to do with the newcomers
And casuals due to there being no middle ground learning point
The game just goes from very easy to very hard
And the rewards for newcomers/casuals In the very easy areas of the game
Is not good enough to prepare them for the very hard content
in a timely or practical fashion

I use the name Barbie on all of my characters.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Trevor. You’re not getting this. We told everyone who suggested this change that this exact situation would be the case. We got called elitists and we’re beaten down into our dungeon here. We said this would happen. We are not really disagreeing with you. But. Again. This Is what we said would happen.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Veckna.9621

Veckna.9621

I’d like to see you solo The Spider Queen at level 35, wearing masterwork green gear

Wait for it…

As far as the changes not being ‘new player friendly’ I have to agree. But then again, that particular fight is one of the few where I got the impression ArenaNet tried to take away a meta group’s go-to strategy by making it shoot poison fields in melee range and just ended up punishing all the ‘in between’ groups who would like to still FGS it down but are not quick enough to do it before they get melted by the fields.
More casual groups can simply take a fight in the open approach to it now.
Personally, I think it’s still way too easy did it with 3 man group earlier today and all we did was bait the initial poison field to give us the seconds we needed to melt it.

(edited by Veckna.9621)

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Posted by: Laar.5476

Laar.5476

Trevor. You’re not getting this. We told everyone who suggested this change that this exact situation would be the case. We got called elitists and we’re beaten down into our dungeon here. We said this would happen. We are not really disagreeing with you. But. Again. This Is what we said would happen.

+1

I’m going to have to break out more modified movie quotes

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Posted by: IllegalChocolate.6938

IllegalChocolate.6938

Borrows in path 1 and path 3 can be 3 manned without ice bow,

Solo’d (Duo’d)*

3 people is overkill

You can 3 man p2 boss in straight zerker in a single phase, you can spare a person to go PvT.

You can 3 man with only 1 person wearing berserker gear too. No idea what the other two was wearing but they were WvW players and ate the aoes for breakfast.

It’s funny how the Queen now won’t come into melee range unless you stack behind a corner.

pretty sure she didn’t do that before either. ranging was a complete joke. strafe a bit every x seconds.

Remember that elitism is not about player skill/experience or wisdom
Elitism is about what you’re wearing, if you can afford it and if you’re using meta

This doesn’t make any sense at all.

+1

I did a couple groups a couple days ago who were straight zerker.

a full 5 man party struggled with the borrows in path 3, with dual ice bow drops, I nearly imploded.

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Posted by: DonQuack.9025

DonQuack.9025

Ele clearly wasnt me.

Concerns about HoT pre-order? Check here!
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Posted by: Gyler.8150

Gyler.8150

It’s funny how the Queen now won’t come into melee range unless you stack behind a corner.

Bearbows, Unite!

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Posted by: Lindbur.2537

Lindbur.2537

“You were ready to dance on our graves, but, as it turns out, you were dancing on your own.”

A remnant of times past.
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”

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Posted by: LordByron.8369

LordByron.8369

I don t believe they hear to what people ask.

We have ascended stuff, We have mnerfed drops everywhere and took almost 2 years to fix a fractal.

They use the excuse to hear a small minority, but its an excuse.

Anyone would know why is wrong to make the FIRST dungeon so pug unfriendly.
They could do it for CoF or CoE, or whatever, but not AC.

The stacking issue comes exactly from their behavior of nerfing everything but Damage.

No reflects, No blocks, No CC, No blindness…
This issue is knew since years and never addressed, despite many things have been suggested.

(see turn defiant into a timer, like the righteous indignation, but only for CC and way shorter).

GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.

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Posted by: Slither Shade.4782

Slither Shade.4782

just joined a party of three rangers …lfg said new to dungeon… killed spider out in the open area their first try… then i joined a typical group and of course we smashed the spider in corner as usual… i never noticed any difference what so ever … first i saw of it was the op’s post

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Posted by: LordByron.8369

LordByron.8369

just joined a party of three rangers …lfg said new to dungeon… killed spider out in the open area their first try… then i joined a typical group and of course we smashed the spider in corner as usual… i never noticed any difference what so ever … first i saw of it was the op’s post

Unless you had 2 eles OR high damage and someone doing the pull in a certain way, you would ve wiped.

Now is a DPS test for pugs….Full zerk is not enough; you have more professions/build requirements.

Exactly the opposite anet should’ve done.

GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.

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Posted by: DonQuack.9025

DonQuack.9025

2 ele’s? I alone can take SQ to about 1/4 health. add guildie and she dies like instantly

This is how I do it

stack might – ice bow – Ice bow 4 (guildie ice bow 4) as she walks into doorway- FGS rush (guildie fgs rush) SQ dies. guildie picks my body off the ground

Darn warriors and their hp pools.

Alternate way LH strafe with swiftness unfortunately that takes what 1-3 mins.

Concerns about HoT pre-order? Check here!
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Posted by: Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

The point isn’t that “The Spider Queen is too hard”

The point is that changes like this are encouraging higher levels of Berserker Elitism
Rather than expanding the need or even practicality of different build/gear structures

If time is taken to make changes
The changes should be supporting a more diverse game dynamic
And helping encourage patience with new/casual players
Rather than giving even more of a reason to avoid them like the plague

I use the name Barbie on all of my characters.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

The point isn’t that “The Spider Queen is too hard”

The point is that changes like this are encouraging higher levels of Berserker Elitism
Rather than expanding the need or even practicality of different build/gear structures

If time is taken to make changes
The changes should be supporting a more diverse game dynamic
And helping encourage patience with new/casual players
Rather than giving even more of a reason to avoid them like the plague

We knew this. We know this. We said this. How many times do I need to say this. You’re telling this to the wrong people. Tell it to the people who requested this change. Cause it wasn’t us.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Lucas.9157

Lucas.9157

And helping encourage patience with new/casual players
Rather than giving even more of a reason to avoid them like the plague

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Mentors/first

The point is that changes like this are encouraging higher levels of Berserker Elitism
Rather than expanding the need or even practicality of different build/gear structures

Quoting one of our prophets:

Berserker isn’t a build. It’s a gear set. There isn’t gear variety in speed clears because those players DO NOT NEED the survivability of Knights, Clerics, w/e else.

There is plenty of build variety though. Players swap in and out certain traits for certain encounters pretty often. If you feel like running a different team comp, you shuffle traits around to achieve the same results. The best build variety is seen in team comps. It’s like a 5 man puzzle of traits and utilities. THAT’S what makes this game so fun.

Condis. and CC also have plenty of uses in both dungeons and fractals if you choose to employ them. None of them require you to gear for them though. If you want to pew pew pew and LB knockback everytime it is off CD, and rack up 20 stacks of Defiance on a mob, then you will enjoy none of those elements. If you want to coordinate CC, then you will actually find that it’s a pretty nice mechanic.

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Posted by: dlonie.6547

dlonie.6547

The point is that changes like this are encouraging higher levels of Berserker Elitism
Rather than expanding the need or even practicality of different build/gear structures

Gotta say, I don’t understand this argument.

A lot of people seem to think that the SQ change is going to force players to wear zerkers.

It takes way more than a glass cannon build to be able to stack’n burn the SQ now. It now requires glass cannons, skillful manipulation of mechanics, and specific party compositions.

You need to a) bait the first AoE, b) have enough damage to kill SQ before the second AoE, and c) have an ele for IB/FGS.

Experienced speed clear parties will still be able to cheese the encounter. All that has changed is that inexperienced players can’t just stack and burn anymore. They’re forced to fight out in the open and (gasp) learn the fight’s mechanics.

This idea that putting on zerker gear will magically make the fight easier is absurd. If you can’t beat the spider queen in PVTs, you won’t be able to in zerkers.

So unless you’re a premade, the new norm should be to just fight SQ legit. In this case, other builds are more viable than zerk, unless you know how to avoid damage.

The difference is that now zerk AND skill are required to cheese the fight. The old way only required zerk.

(edited by dlonie.6547)

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Posted by: RemiRome.8495

RemiRome.8495

You need to a) bait the first AoE, b) have enough damage to kill SQ before the second AoE, and c) have an ele for IB/FGS.

a) nope
b) not really
c) lol no

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

if she poison fields in the los spot just run out, los again and finish her outside of it.

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Posted by: dlonie.6547

dlonie.6547

You need to a) bait the first AoE, b) have enough damage to kill SQ before the second AoE, and c) have an ele for IB/FGS.

a) nope
b) not really
c) lol no

Maybe I was unclear — those are the steps that are needed if you want to corner stack the entire “fight”.

Last I heard, anyway. Is there another way? Just bring a kittenload of cleansing? I thought the AoE’s ticked continuously and poison in the corner would just get reapplied when cleared.

(edited by dlonie.6547)

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

You could just take a mesmer. Or stack healing. Or rupt the poison. Plenty of ways to do it without leaving the corner.

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Posted by: Gyler.8150

Gyler.8150

2 ele’s? I alone can take SQ to about 1/4 health. add guildie and she dies like instantly

This is how I do it

stack might – ice bow – Ice bow 4 (guildie ice bow 4) as she walks into doorway- FGS rush (guildie fgs rush) SQ dies. guildie picks my body off the ground

Darn warriors and their hp pools.

Alternate way LH strafe with swiftness unfortunately that takes what 1-3 mins.

Don’t forget #5, those 5 seconds of people just beating her is more than enough time to down her.

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Posted by: RemiRome.8495

RemiRome.8495

Maybe I was unclear — those are the steps that are needed if you want to corner stack the entire “fight”.

pic related. me mesmer and engie 3manned in corner because the ele who hosted was useless and the other warrior sort of mindlessly listened to his mesmerfriend and ran around in the middle doing nothing.

ele promptly ragequit after crying for ress and killed the instance.

edit: pick is from attempt#2 (chat is from #1) where I opened the instance. no one listened when I told them to go to whateverspot we used to kill her so I spawned spider anyway hoping they’d die and we yolocornered it (with no deaths sadly, they had good instincts).

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Posted by: Synesh.1094

Synesh.1094

Personaly, as a filty casual as myself, I like this change. I don’t wish any harm arm against those people that wish to speed clear the dungeon, but it’s just sad that stacking has become the norm.

Personaly if one wants to speed clear, he needs a proper team and group coordination, not cheap tactics. And the only way I can think up right now, is make changes like this more frequent, making fighting the boss as intended safer on the long run, so that only good teams will deal with it fast enough.

Edge of the Mists and the newer dungeons are better on this matter, and they do that by making you fight the boss on their own rules (again, not a speed cleaner so I don’t know all the tricks. I just go in, fight, have a good time and peace out), wich to me add to the encounter, giving more weight to it.

Personaly, i see no problem with this change and I wish for similar ones applied in the future (as long they make sense as “Don’t stand in the fire”) but I don’t think the old dungeons will ever improve that much, they are filled with interesting ideas that don’t really work and are far too easy to exploit.

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Posted by: RedStar.4218

RedStar.4218

At least people still wanting to play AC will get better with time. And with “being able to move out of AoEs” being the criteria, let’s just say that the bar to get better isn’t very high.

I can’t believe that after a year or so, people still kitten about AC. Or any dungeons in this game.
(Aside from new players, because they are new players and didn’t get a lot of practice).

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Posted by: DonQuack.9025

DonQuack.9025

2 ele’s? I alone can take SQ to about 1/4 health. add guildie and she dies like instantly

This is how I do it

stack might – ice bow – Ice bow 4 (guildie ice bow 4) as she walks into doorway- FGS rush (guildie fgs rush) SQ dies. guildie picks my body off the ground

Darn warriors and their hp pools.

Alternate way LH strafe with swiftness unfortunately that takes what 1-3 mins.

Don’t forget #5, those 5 seconds of people just beating her is more than enough time to down her.

Hmm.. you know I did forget about it ive only done it three times since launch so Im a bit slow

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Posted by: Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

The point isn’t that “The Spider Queen is too hard”

The point is that changes like this are encouraging higher levels of Berserker Elitism
Rather than expanding the need or even practicality of different build/gear structures

If time is taken to make changes
The changes should be supporting a more diverse game dynamic
And helping encourage patience with new/casual players
Rather than giving even more of a reason to avoid them like the plague

We knew this. We know this. We said this. How many times do I need to say this. You’re telling this to the wrong people. Tell it to the people who requested this change. Cause it wasn’t us.

It’s the official forum, there is no where else for me to post this
It is posted here not for you to read over but for the hopes that a-net will read it over

I again, see people who aren’t identifying the problem here
They must be young gamers with no experience to compare from other games?
Maybe older gamers who haven’t ever played Guild Wars 1?
“Yes I am using that as direct example”

Let me point this out about Guild Wars 2:

  • We have a game with multiple selections of traits/gear/dodge mechanics
  • But dungeons are ALL still optimally cleared with Berserker/Stacking
  • Changes are made to make a boss a bit more annoying but it doesn’t change anything
  • The change simply makes the LFG system more elite in careful selections
  • Make sure that party is all ascended level 80 serkers ~ dungeon? no problem

And this about Guild Wars 1:

  • We have a game with countless thousands of selectable skills/gear combinations
  • You’ll be forced to LEARN all of it, if you want to compete on hard mode/dungeons
  • A party MUST be diverse and bring all aspects to the table, to be good enough
  • DPS/Heals/Protections/Condi Removal/Hexes/Enchantments/Nuking/Spiking
    Knockdowns, overall control/Interrupts/Degeneration/Boon Ripping/Blocks/Minions
    Meatwalls of all kinds/Spirit Turrets/Tankers of aggro/Disengagers/Runners
    The glass damger spikers, ect.. ect.. ect.. ~ Where all equally important
    And needed in teams → needed
  • Bosses were complex, you needed to seriously pay attention to their routines and exactly what was happening and why you were dying, to figure out what kind of a team composition to bring and what special puzzle was going on, to actually be able to beat it
    Hello, Duncan The Black

Seeing as how this is Guild Wars 2
One would expect the combat to be similarly immersing to that of Guild Wars 1
It wouldn’t be hard to create new challenges that weren’t “DPS conquers all”
You may find out that a boss in an Arah dungeon can only be hurt by heal fields
Or an Earth boss by waterfields and combos done through it
These bosses could even deal very high retaliation damages to high DPSers
But make lower DPSers who rock the heals, the high DPSers in this situation
And the only ones bunky enough, to survive mega attacks
~ These types of encounters push the need for new builds/compositions
~ These types of encounters help utilize the game’s full dynamic
This would be great to do now, especially with the ability to re-trait whenever ooc

I mean seriously
What is the point of having trait/gear selections
If the best possible selection is raw DPS serk on every class?

I hear a lot of people say “the game’s engine supports the DPS meta”
This is incorrect, there is nothing wrong with this game’s core engine, it’s fantastic
They would realize this if they played in structured pvp teams
The problem is simply the content being provided for PvE
~ It promotes Elitism
~ Which promotes discrimination in an unhealthy way due to the 2man vote system
~ The discrimination encourages players to use the same exact serk/meta
(If they want to stay in partys)

Many of you say:
“If you don’t want to use serk meta make a group that isn’t based around it”
That isn’t practical at all due to challenges such as Hodgins and the Graveling mounds
These sorts of dungeon puzzles require DPS “require it” to complete
This my friends, is all content that encourages pure 100% Elite Berserker Stacking
So “making a non serk party” is not practical and it isn’t going to work
We need content provided that encourages “due to content provided”
Real practical reasons to stray from berserker/stacking meta

I use the name Barbie on all of my characters.

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Posted by: dlonie.6547

dlonie.6547

It’s the official forum, there is no where else for me to post this
It is posted here not for you to read over but for the hopes that a-net will read it over

Then you really picked the wrong place to post this.

It’s ok, it makes sense to assume that the official forums would be a good place to put feedback. But we don’t get much dev traffic in here. Try to find the last time a dev posted in here. A CC did several months ago, but a dev? Nah. Probably been the better part of a year if not more.

Even though your feedback concerns a dungeon, you have a much better chances of getting noticed in the general GW2 discussion forum. Even then….you talk about a lot of things that people have been complaining about since launch. I honestly don’t think they’re interested in hearing it :-(

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Posted by: IvanTheGrey.2941

IvanTheGrey.2941

-snip-

I think this is a very interesting argument.

Just so you know where I’m coming from: This is my first MMO, and my first PC game in the first place, outside of the random games of solitaire played on company computers. I literally can’t compare it to any other game I’ve played, outside of the thousands of hours spent on Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, etc., which have absolutely nothing to do with games such as these.

I think the first thing that you suggest as a solution to the berserker meta, and all that it entails, fundamentally changes what guild wars 2 is as a whole. The idea that content can be completed by any class would be negated by the ideas that you suggest, and required “roles” would exclude more classes and promote more kicking and what you consider elitism. I’m assuming, as I haven’t played anything to compare it directly to, that if content like you suggest would come into play, the lfg would show parties looking for a specific class/role/skill set for an instance, and anyone not fitting that would be kicked, no matter how skilled they were. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve heard that WoW’s lfg looks like: “Healer wanted” or “Tank wanted” or the like. This seems far more exclusionary than “lvl 80, zerk, melee Lupi”, as any profession can fit that role (Even necros).

As for having gear selection other that dps traits, it’s there just for that. I hate to rehash an old quote, but, “dungeons can be completed in any set of gear with any set of traits”<— said by someone far more experienced than I. Once again, gear selection can make things more efficient, but that’s all. You can have a 3 hour Arah p4 run in cleric’s gear, or any gear like that, or a 1 hour run in berserker’s. It can be completed either way.

The two person vote system does not promote elitism in the slightest. It CAN be used for griefing, or anything like that, but the fact of the matter is that in Arah (I’m saying this just because I’ve been pugging it a bunch lately), the only “promotion of elitism” is kicking someone when they are either: A: Lying (i.e. if they are clearly inexperienced when they join an “experience required” party, or B: Not reading the LFG. It’s been my experience in joining both kinds of parties, those w/o requirements and those with, that if people read, it’s great. If they don’t read, it’s not. There’s not been any sense of elitism that I’ve experienced, even when I stunk. On the contrary, and maybe this is just because I’m an Arah Mentor now, there is encouragement, teaching, learning, and great attitudes all around, even when players are wiped on the floor at Lupicus and I’m finishing him off solo.

As for “DPS checks” in AC; I remember going through the dungeon when I was a noob with mismatched gear and still being able to complete it with a random PuG. The graveling burrows are honestly not a big deal if there’s any kind of party communication and skill in the slightest. I’m sorry, but what you’re saying just isn’t true. The only real “DPS check”, Simin (before the nerf) could be completed w/o berserker’s gear, LoSing, (I would say stacking, but I’m not sure if you would consider standing in melee stacking or not….), or anything that would be considered to promote elitism.

In closing, the only thing that the berserker meta encourages is reading. Reading the lfg and not joining parties that say “Zerk only” or the like. Not conforming to the meta allows people to make their own groups and have fun as they see fit. I’ve joined many a pug for arah p4 (Lfg’s that DO NOT have any set requirements), and have had all sorts of gear, builds, and skill levels. I’ve made some friends in there too, as we all had fun.

TL;DR: Actually, I think I made a good argument. Read the thing.

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Posted by: DonQuack.9025

DonQuack.9025

“That isn’t practical at all due to challenges such as Hodgins and the Graveling mounds
These sorts of dungeon puzzles require DPS “require it” to complete”

Lol wut?

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Posted by: Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

It’s the official forum, there is no where else for me to post this
It is posted here not for you to read over but for the hopes that a-net will read it over

Then you really picked the wrong place to post this.

It’s ok, it makes sense to assume that the official forums would be a good place to put feedback. But we don’t get much dev traffic in here. Try to find the last time a dev posted in here. A CC did several months ago, but a dev? Nah. Probably been the better part of a year if not more.

Even though your feedback concerns a dungeon, you have a much better chances of getting noticed in the general GW2 discussion forum. Even then….you talk about a lot of things that people have been complaining about since launch. I honestly don’t think they’re interested in hearing it :-(

In most forums as they age
Devs or GMS or w/e they are called specific to that forum
All eventually use alternative accounts to post and comment
This avoids direct aggression toward company representation
And allows them to say to you what they REALLY want to say

Trust me, they are aware of what is being said in these forums

To Ivan:

You said that GW2 was your very first game outside of Solitaire
So GW2 itself has structured your very first associations of “how MMOs work”

Not poking fun at you here but I couldn’t write enough back-history to gaming in a single post to help explain why most of your argument is lacking in connoisseur perspective.

So we’ll just avoid this discussion

I use the name Barbie on all of my characters.

(edited by Trevor Boyer.6524)