Guild Wars 2

colesy.8490:

Black Box.9312:

colesy.8490:

Black Box.9312:

colesy.8490:

Hearte.6852:

MastaNeenja.1537:

Why would you want to spread out?

You need to be near other people to get them up if they go down
combo fields encourage close proximity play
you can dodge while you are stacked, in fact you are SUPPOSED to
If stacking is bad, then so is ranging and kiting

there is no real punishment for clumping up, and don’t expect any dungeon over hauls the deves are too busy planning what Scarlet will do next.

Also see Ethic’s post

/thread over

This post fits perfectly with the mentality that the current system has bred.

Exactly, there is no need to spread out now.

Also, combo fields encourage ranged play as well with projectile/blast finishers, pet/illusion finishers, etc, so that is moot.

Also, if it wasn’t clear, I’m not arguing for strict ranged combat…just to change the current system that rewards skilless play.

If you think this system rewards skill-less play, then I’d like you to compare your average pug melee zerker experience to a dungeon guild speed clear experience, go ahead and watch any DnT, LOD, Kr or rT video, then compare to pugs.

See the difference? Yeah, that’s called “skill”.

I’d hardly call taking advantage of a poorly designed AI system ‘skill’. There are a small handful of fights that involve skill, but let’s be honest: the bulk of the game is far too simplistic to call a simple understanding of game mechanics ‘skill’.

Then get a group of mates together and replicate it yourselves and stop ****ing on people’s efforts unless you can back it up. The difference between organised groups and ‘experienced’ pugs is light and day, and it annoys me when people try to claim the game is skill-less despite the clear skill gap between random pug and obal gandalf solo.

I already did that just today, actually. Ran some stuff with buddies of mine from a major ‘elite’ PvE guild; their tactics primarily revolved around stacking around a corner, using FGS rush into the wall and hoping that the boss didn’t use its one hit kill attack in time.

I wouldn’t consider myself a hardcore gamer by any means, but I’ve been gaming long enough to know the difference between tactics that actually require skill and strategy as opposed to silly gimmicks. Like I said, there are places where such display of skill shines through here, but let’s be honest: the vast majority of the methods used to clear through this game’s PvE content fall within the latter category.

If they’re such a major guild, then name and shame. No speed clearers I know ‘hope’ to fgs rush before dying, they rush, knowing the boss will die before dealing lethal damage to the player wielding it, or they prepare in advance by say, slotting in arcane shield versus lupicus so they can eat a kick should it happen. I can’t even think of many bosses you wall an hope they don’t one shot, it’s almost like you’re keeping your anecdote so cryptic it didn’t actually happen. Here’s my tip, watch alphard and lupicus kills. They don’t require skill? The fact that I can reliably duo (haven’t attempted solo much) alphard is completely skill less? Oh yeah I forgot, hurrrr pve is faceroll, which explains all of the arah buyers and the tryhards running around this forum who try to put down newbies but can’t zerk in a dungeon to save their life.

Name and shame so that there can be more pointless drama in a forum that’s already overly melodramatic? No thanks. But we wiped more using their ‘guild tactics’ than we ever did when we ran dungeons before they joined the guild. The fights were quick when it worked, but it was all based on chance, not skill.

Skillfull players know how to make it work 90% of the time and can salvage the situation if it doesnt work.

For example: We were running ac p2 the other day. I swapped to engi for final boss to leech xp. We had 1 ele so we were just going to burst it with FGS + LF. The rush missed unfortunately and we werent quite able to kill the boss in 1 go because we had a few sub 80’s in the party. Instead of wiping or completely resetting. We kited the boss to the other trap and charged it during the fight and finished it off.

Black Box.9312:

colesy.8490:

Black Box.9312:

colesy.8490:

Black Box.9312:

colesy.8490:

Hearte.6852:

MastaNeenja.1537:

Why would you want to spread out?

You need to be near other people to get them up if they go down
combo fields encourage close proximity play
you can dodge while you are stacked, in fact you are SUPPOSED to
If stacking is bad, then so is ranging and kiting

there is no real punishment for clumping up, and don’t expect any dungeon over hauls the deves are too busy planning what Scarlet will do next.

Also see Ethic’s post

/thread over

This post fits perfectly with the mentality that the current system has bred.

Exactly, there is no need to spread out now.

Also, combo fields encourage ranged play as well with projectile/blast finishers, pet/illusion finishers, etc, so that is moot.

Also, if it wasn’t clear, I’m not arguing for strict ranged combat…just to change the current system that rewards skilless play.

If you think this system rewards skill-less play, then I’d like you to compare your average pug melee zerker experience to a dungeon guild speed clear experience, go ahead and watch any DnT, LOD, Kr or rT video, then compare to pugs.

See the difference? Yeah, that’s called “skill”.

I’d hardly call taking advantage of a poorly designed AI system ‘skill’. There are a small handful of fights that involve skill, but let’s be honest: the bulk of the game is far too simplistic to call a simple understanding of game mechanics ‘skill’.

Then get a group of mates together and replicate it yourselves and stop ****ing on people’s efforts unless you can back it up. The difference between organised groups and ‘experienced’ pugs is light and day, and it annoys me when people try to claim the game is skill-less despite the clear skill gap between random pug and obal gandalf solo.

I already did that just today, actually. Ran some stuff with buddies of mine from a major ‘elite’ PvE guild; their tactics primarily revolved around stacking around a corner, using FGS rush into the wall and hoping that the boss didn’t use its one hit kill attack in time.

I wouldn’t consider myself a hardcore gamer by any means, but I’ve been gaming long enough to know the difference between tactics that actually require skill and strategy as opposed to silly gimmicks. Like I said, there are places where such display of skill shines through here, but let’s be honest: the vast majority of the methods used to clear through this game’s PvE content fall within the latter category.

If they’re such a major guild, then name and shame. No speed clearers I know ‘hope’ to fgs rush before dying, they rush, knowing the boss will die before dealing lethal damage to the player wielding it, or they prepare in advance by say, slotting in arcane shield versus lupicus so they can eat a kick should it happen. I can’t even think of many bosses you wall an hope they don’t one shot, it’s almost like you’re keeping your anecdote so cryptic it didn’t actually happen. Here’s my tip, watch alphard and lupicus kills. They don’t require skill? The fact that I can reliably duo (haven’t attempted solo much) alphard is completely skill less? Oh yeah I forgot, hurrrr pve is faceroll, which explains all of the arah buyers and the tryhards running around this forum who try to put down newbies but can’t zerk in a dungeon to save their life.

Name and shame so that there can be more pointless drama in a forum that’s already overly melodramatic? No thanks. But we wiped more using their ‘guild tactics’ than we ever did when we ran dungeons before they joined the guild. The fights were quick when it worked, but it was all based on chance, not skill.

And what were these imaginary fights? You’re not being specific. If you specify the dungeon path then I can probably tell you how a group would be able to mitigate that chance, because “hoping” doesn’t sound like a speed-clear mentality at all, that just sounds like pugs who heard a certain skill or class was good and hope it’ll work out without having a clue why it’s good (e.g. why warriors are valuable or why people say no rangers – it’s because most of them are bearbows, not that the class is bad, pugs don’t get that).

Rainweaver.7302:

Nosoyelarty.7268:

Some bosses have different mechanics depending if their target is in melee range or far away. Spider Queen don’t uses the AOE poison if you are in melee range even if you are not stacked, Giganticus Lupicus don’t uses his kick if you are on range. So you can’t do GL in range because you are exploiting one of his abilities.

It seems like every single post about stacking = exploit is just because of the Spider Queen. They really want the first champion of a lvl 35 dungeon to be the most super epic fight in the game.

Except that I never said Spider Queen stacking was an exploit (way to read the post). I mentioned her as an example of what in my opinion is a poor AI design. I’m fine with bosses doing certain attacks in melee and others in range, but the discrepancy between the efficiency of the two is really something to question. I’d rather the spider use both the web and the poison attacks on both melee and ranged players.

And besides, why can’t people ask for a super epic fight, even if it’s in the first dungeon? An epic fight does not need to be hardcore hard, but challenging and/or exciting, and I’m not sure about you guys, but I definitely don’t find the current Spider Queen’s fight, with the stacking method, enjoyable at all. Plus, being the “first dungeon” is not a parameter for anything. The Cave Troll in AC is harder than a lot of bosses from higher level dungeons.

Back to my original post, I said I consider a few of the current stacking in this game as exploits, not all of them. Exploit because by just doing the mere act of stacking you are nulling one or more of the fight mechanisms/boss abilities that were intended to affect your group. Some examples: (there are probably more)

Colossus Rumble: Stacking nulls his seismic attack

SE P1 golem trio (the “new” stacking spot): Stacking nulls most of their AoEs and attacks

Volkov: Stacking nulls everything he does (that spot has been there since forever and still not fixed)

SE P3 dredge champion duo: Stacking nulls everything they do

Subject Alpha in CoE P1 and P3: Stacking nulls his Teeth of Mordremoth (earth spike thing)

Aetherblade Fractals: Stacking nulls the cannons AoE during the “clear the waves of aetherblades” encounter.

Old Tom: Not sure if the stacking trick still works, but yeah

That being said: when you stack at Spider Queen, you are not nulling an intended attack directed at your group because in theory there wasn’t even such attack, since you didn’t meet the requirements to trigger the poison AoE, so I suppose it’s not an exploit (although I strongly disagree with such design, as I’ve already stated).

More bout the stacking scenarios:

Colossus Rumble: Does not working all the time, even worse when he comes to you from other side. people stack there to avoid the falling ceiling rocks. and the conditions from the boss is what really slows down dps and potentially wipe party.

Golem Trio: are you talking about the corner after the stationary golems? Reflect and stability is needed otherwise face certain death.

Volkov: He still put tons of bleed on a player.

Alpha’s tooth move: still hits you regardless, unblockable too.

rainynoble.6531:

Rainweaver.7302:

Nosoyelarty.7268:

Some bosses have different mechanics depending if their target is in melee range or far away. Spider Queen don’t uses the AOE poison if you are in melee range even if you are not stacked, Giganticus Lupicus don’t uses his kick if you are on range. So you can’t do GL in range because you are exploiting one of his abilities.

It seems like every single post about stacking = exploit is just because of the Spider Queen. They really want the first champion of a lvl 35 dungeon to be the most super epic fight in the game.

Except that I never said Spider Queen stacking was an exploit (way to read the post). I mentioned her as an example of what in my opinion is a poor AI design. I’m fine with bosses doing certain attacks in melee and others in range, but the discrepancy between the efficiency of the two is really something to question. I’d rather the spider use both the web and the poison attacks on both melee and ranged players.

And besides, why can’t people ask for a super epic fight, even if it’s in the first dungeon? An epic fight does not need to be hardcore hard, but challenging and/or exciting, and I’m not sure about you guys, but I definitely don’t find the current Spider Queen’s fight, with the stacking method, enjoyable at all. Plus, being the “first dungeon” is not a parameter for anything. The Cave Troll in AC is harder than a lot of bosses from higher level dungeons.

Back to my original post, I said I consider a few of the current stacking in this game as exploits, not all of them. Exploit because by just doing the mere act of stacking you are nulling one or more of the fight mechanisms/boss abilities that were intended to affect your group. Some examples: (there are probably more)

Colossus Rumble: Stacking nulls his seismic attack

SE P1 golem trio (the “new” stacking spot): Stacking nulls most of their AoEs and attacks

Volkov: Stacking nulls everything he does (that spot has been there since forever and still not fixed)

SE P3 dredge champion duo: Stacking nulls everything they do

Subject Alpha in CoE P1 and P3: Stacking nulls his Teeth of Mordremoth (earth spike thing)

Aetherblade Fractals: Stacking nulls the cannons AoE during the “clear the waves of aetherblades” encounter.

Old Tom: Not sure if the stacking trick still works, but yeah

That being said: when you stack at Spider Queen, you are not nulling an intended attack directed at your group because in theory there wasn’t even such attack, since you didn’t meet the requirements to trigger the poison AoE, so I suppose it’s not an exploit (although I strongly disagree with such design, as I’ve already stated).

More bout the stacking scenarios:

Colossus Rumble: Does not working all the time, even worse when he comes to you from other side. people stack there to avoid the falling ceiling rocks. and the conditions from the boss is what really slows down dps and potentially wipe party.

Golem Trio: are you talking about the corner after the stationary golems? Reflect and stability is needed otherwise face certain death.

Volkov: He still put tons of bleed on a player.

Alpha’s tooth move: still hits you regardless, unblockable too.

Pulling Rhomblus “from the other side” is actually the fastest way to kill him, since you can FGS into the column and wipe him in seconds that way.

rainynoble.6531:

More bout the stacking scenarios:

Colossus Rumble: Does not working all the time, even worse when he comes to you from other side. people stack there to avoid the falling ceiling rocks. and the conditions from the boss is what really slows down dps and potentially wipe party.

Golem Trio: are you talking about the corner after the stationary golems? Reflect and stability is needed otherwise face certain death.

Volkov: He still put tons of bleed on a player.

Alpha’s tooth move: still hits you regardless, unblockable too.

Colossus: I mentioned that stacking only counters the falling ceiling rocks (the cave in). Yeah, you still get hit by auto-attacks and sometimes shockwaves (depends on his positioning) but that does not make it any less exploitive.

Golem Trio: Done it yesterday without reflects. Stack tightly and the Fire AoE can’t reach the group for some reason. You still get hit by random stuff like the poison field or the lightning debuff.

Volkov: No. If you stack on top of that structure he will continue to Auto-Attack and burrow and both won’t affect the party.

Alpha: Stack tightly (inside him basically) and it won’t hit the party. Specially true during the second and third fight.

Alpha’s earth attack does less damage the closer you are to him, to the point that if you are inside his circle it will not hit you at all. Even without pushing him against the wall you can totally avoid this attack by just walking towards him as he uses the attack. This is really a problem with his AI. In the first encounter Alpha strictly alternates his two elemental attacks with no exceptions; the later encounters have a little bit more variety but not much.

All Alpha needs to do is run far out to the middle of the room and fire off an earth attack and he’d wipe bad stacking pug teams in one hit. Bonus points if he did 2 earth attacks in a row when this happens.

draconx.3102:

Alpha’s earth attack does less damage the closer you are to him, to the point that if you are inside his circle it will not hit you at all. Even without pushing him against the wall you can totally avoid this attack by just walking towards him as he uses the attack. This is really a problem with his AI. In the first encounter Alpha strictly alternates his two elemental attacks with no exceptions; the later encounters have a little bit more variety but not much.

All Alpha needs to do is run far out to the middle of the room and fire off an earth attack and he’d wipe bad stacking pug teams in one hit. Bonus points if he did 2 earth attacks in a row when this happens.

Actually the earth attack does basically the same damage despite of your location. What I did notice is that the AoEs gets gradually bigger the farther they travel, with the first AoE being barely the width of Alpha.

What I also noticed is that the first AoE of the series starts in front of Alpha, which means that when players stack inside him, they won’t get hit. It also seems that whenever he uses the earth attack while facing walls/obstacle, the attack will “climb” it, instead of going straight forward. So when a player stack by a wall or a crate, they’re basically invulnerable to the earth attack.

And he does position himself before using the earth attack, but since players usually lure him to places where he ends up stuck, the attacks won’t work (because of the abovementioned issue).

So yeah, I’d call that both an exploit and a problem with his AI design…

0.o

I got infracted for telling Nike thank you…..

He offered learnings and I said thanks.

post deleted and infracted?

wow….

Ropechef.6192:

0.o

I got infracted for telling Nike thank you…..

He offered learnings and I said thanks.

post deleted and infracted?

wow….

Welcome to Gw2 dungeon forums. Btw that will probably be infracted too.

swiftpaw.6397:

Ropechef.6192:

0.o

I got infracted for telling Nike thank you…..

He offered learnings and I said thanks.

post deleted and infracted?

wow….

Welcome to Gw2 dungeon forums. Btw that will probably be infracted too.

Sure, just let me report you with a reason “I’m deeply offended”.

Some people should learn the difference between stacking and using a safe spot. Stacking nulls Colossus Rumbles seismic attack? No. Just go stack in the middle of the room and see how stacking nulls anything…
It’s not stacking. It’s the safespot that does that. And safespots are bad. Stacking however, is not.

Molch.2078:

Some people should learn the difference between stacking and using a safe spot. Stacking nulls Colossus Rumbles seismic attack? No. Just go stack in the middle of the room and see how stacking nulls anything…
It’s not stacking. It’s the safespot that does that. And safespots are bad. Stacking however, is not.

My examples were of popular cases where people stack for the sole purpose of abusing of a certain condition/bug, not general stacking. If you wanna call it “using a safe-spot”, so be it. They’re still stacking in that specific safe-spot everyone knows that nulls Colossus’ cave in.

For the second time in this thread: my problem is not with stacking on it’s own, but stacking in a certain intentional manner that exploits a fight or encounter, which often does contribute to create the scenario the OP described of “nursing a complacent, less-skilled player base.” Just look at how badly most PuGs get destroyed when they don’t stack for colossus or alpha (been there, done that)