Guild Wars 2

Vox Hollow.2736:

Ehhh. That whole ‘leave my playstyle alone!’ talking point really just rings a sour note.

It don’t know if it’s just the presentation of it. But it always seems like folks are more trying to use political correctness to protect these practices from scrutiny, not preserve a gameplay they’re deeply fond of emotionally.

If it is a gameplay, people just don’t act like it. I don’t see people ranting and raving that new traits and utilities aren’t being created with skipping and stacking in mind, for example. Nobody ever asks for skipping and stacking balance and calls things out on being OP.

What they do say, is that they’re just doing it for the sake of reward, which doesn’t exactly imply a great deal of fondness for the gameplay itself.

Stacking and Lava Font, Burning Speed, Frozen Burst, Ring of Earth, Earthquake, Conjure Lightning Hammer, Conjure Frost Bow, Conjure Firey Fun Sword, Sand Storm, Lightning Storm etc. are OP. Please nerf.

Skipping and Obsidian Flesh, Mist Form, Lightning Flash, Arcane Shield, Firey Fun Sword again, Static Field and Swiftness stacking (1 minute long) are also OP. Please nerf.

In fact, just remove the elementalist class because they are OP with and WITHOUT these exploits. That is not fair for the other classes.
Well, because I’m fond of my ele, it takes me so long to cry out loud about a ‘stacking and skipping balance’. Sorry but not sorry.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I personally don’t understand why people seem so fond of stacking. I get that it makes runs faster. But why would you want the game to not challenge you in any way?

I’m all for players finding the most efficient way to beat dungeons. But why not demand that the game challenges you more? Why not demand better designed combat and dungeons? Isn’t it kind of silly that almost all the content in the game can be beaten so easily, simply by stacking in a corner? I’m not against stacking, I’m against the game being so stupid.

We want the game to challenge us more, the dungeon community as a whole is kind of bummed out that dungeons don’t get much attention these days. I think we’d love some all new dungeons not just a path here and there. But Anet has priorities and they don’t include higher levels of PVE play. I honestly can’t say that I blame them to some extent, the majority of the player base struggled with the Marionette event for example. That particular player base is also were the majority of the gem store purchases come from. They have to keep their main customer base happy and they don’t venture into dungeons. It’s always been that way. Even back before stacking became prevalent a lot players would complain that dungeons were too hard, mobs hit too hard and had too much health and so on.

Dungeons were challenging at one time, like a little over a year ago but now it’s become wash, rinse, repeat. We need new dungeons, not a revamp, but there’s no money in that unless they give us an expansion/campaign.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Ehhh. That whole ‘leave my playstyle alone!’ talking point really just rings a sour note.

It don’t know if it’s just the presentation of it. But it always seems like folks are more trying to use political correctness to protect these practices from scrutiny, not preserve a gameplay they’re deeply fond of emotionally.

If it is a gameplay, people just don’t act like it. I don’t see people ranting and raving that new traits and utilities aren’t being created with skipping and stacking in mind, for example. Nobody ever asks for skipping and stacking balance and calls things out on being OP.

What they do say, is that they’re just doing it for the sake of reward, which doesn’t exactly imply a great deal of fondness for the gameplay itself.

Me: I don’t mind if you don’t want to stack. However I’m not going to play with you because I want to stack so I’m going to find players that also want to stack.

You: Stop stacking, it cheapens the game, I don’t like it.

Contrary to what you may think, I’m quite fond of stacking, it’s really effective. Also I can support my team with fire fields and blast finishers and get them up when they go down super fast. Rather than trying to find you and running half way across the room.
What you may not be aware of is what goes on in a proper stack, dodging, aoe blinds, aoe blocks, aoe protection, lots of support.

I also prefer to melee I like to look my enemy in the eye when jam a sword in their gut. I want to kill things to and not just be a damage soaking heal bot so again fighting along side my friends and helping them while they help me creates camaraderie. We also love watch that health bar melt it gives me warm fuzzies inside.

The fact that we have combo fields and blast finishers along with a might cap supports stacking and or close proximity play.

I guess my skepticism is really non-issue and would drag this down a tangent.
I assure you I’m not ignoring you, I just don’t have anything nice to say, and it would probably lead the thread down a bad place.

Trying to immunize your practices from scrutiny by painting them as a some kind of sacrosanct freedom of choice is silly as heck.

Freedoms are two way streets.
Your freedom to do something, doesn’t eclipse my freedom to criticize what you’re doing, doesn’t eclipse other people’s freedom to complain about an experience they didn’t enjoy, doesn’t eclipse the creator’s freedom to design away from them.

You know what you should not have the freedom to do?

Dictate what other people are doing when their actions do not affect you at all.

Make your own group.

“Your freedom to do something, doesn’t eclipse my freedom to criticize what you’re doing, doesn’t eclipse other people’s freedom to complain about an experience they didn’t enjoy, doesn’t eclipse the creator’s freedom to design away from them.”

Yep, and this is how I feel about you non stackers. I’ll criticize your lack of value for time and efficiency, and I’ll complain if I have one tell me how to play.

It is very much a two way street, except the creators decided to allow people to range and run around with their heads cut off as well as be coordinated. They’re fine with either method. That’s it.

@swiftpaw
If that were true, we wouldn’t have threads like this.

Keep patting yourself on the back there, but if you want to comment on freedoms I’m not the one telling you how to play or what’s the right way to play, or even criticizing your play style. I’m sorry you’re in the minority here but you’re running out of mental gymnastics to perform. Last you left off with skills and game mechanics which Iris just destroyed from an Elementailist POV, and I gave a more generalized approach.

Now that we went down that road with you, you’re bringing up freedoms yet you’re the one imposing. No one is forcing you to stack, no one is forcing you to play this game in any specific way. I suggest if you’re not having fun with the rules of the game maybe you need to find a game that better fits how you want to play. That’s the approach I take when I am looking at what games I want to play.

Vox Hollow.2736:

@swiftpaw
If that were true, we wouldn’t have threads like this.

Oh ok, let me rephrase that. You have the freedom to express your desire to restrict other people’s freedoms even if it makes you look like a kitten and a hypocrite. You just don’t have the ability to enforce it thankfully.

All this hate for Ele’s. it’s totally unjustified (hides FGS).

Go pick on Mesmers and their mesploits instead.

@ MastaNeenja
Wait, wait, before I get to paragraph #2, I need to understand what went down in paragraph #1.

What?
I thought Iris, like you, was attempting to demonstrate that you do think of it as a gameplay. I said people don’t treat it like a gameplay because they don’t engage in the kind of balance discussions people normally do when they’re emotionally attached to a gameplay, and then Iris proceeded to engage in balance discussions. Like how I said people don’t seem to hold any fondness for it, and then you proceeded to say how fond you were of it.

What the heck else could you two have been trying to say? That had to do with game mechanics of all things? What that does that have to do with anything?

Well The way I interpreted Iris was that they are being sarcastic, I took a more blunt approach. I am fond of my mechanics and I believe that is also the case for Iris. They can correct me if I am wrong.

Our response goes back to when you stated that traits and skills do not support skipping and stacking. We are not asking for these abilities because they are already present in the game.

I think I get you.
That isn’t quite what I was going for.

I was trying to list examples of the kinds of things people say when they’re emotionally invested in something. Not trying to prove or disprove something(?) about skipping/stacking and using existing traits and skills as a proof.

Im all for having fights more like fractal bosses where you cant just burst against a wall. But I dont want to see anti stack mechanics which completely prevent full melee groups.

Fair enough, what it boils down to in the case that I (and many others) have built is that the way the game is designed now players who want to stack can and those that do not wish to stack do not have to. I am for keeping the game the way it is because this allows everyone to play the way they want. I don’t see anything wrong with that system.

I’m not expecting this post to enlighten anyone, but I am saying I will fight tooth and nail for the way that lets everyone play how they want.

spoj.9672:

Im all for having fights more like fractal bosses where you cant just burst against a wall. But I dont want to see anti stack mechanics which completely prevent full melee groups.

This 1000 times.

Well, I’m glad we cleared up where our misunderstandings were happening.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m generally pretty relaxed about this topic….up until the point freedom of choice gets held up as a shield to avoid having to discuss criticisms about dungeons, and being used to aggressively undermine people expressing their negative opinion by pretending they don’t have a right to have it at all.

I am totally okay with you doing your thing, but I am not okay with that.

And I guess we disagree on something pretty fundamental.
I don’t like the idea of a contingent of the subforum arguing against improving encounters to fully engage more of the game’s mechanics just for the sake of sparing these practices. That seems really anti-progress to me.

And I don’t entirely get how you can say you want to preserve stacking as a gameplay, and then agree with Spoj it’s fine to disintegrate stacking so long as melee building choices are still relevant?

Vox Hollow.2736:

Don’t get me wrong. I’m generally pretty relaxed about this topic….up until the point freedom of choice gets held up as a shield to avoid having to discuss criticisms about dungeons, and being used to aggressively undermine people expressing their negative opinion by pretending they don’t have a right to have it at all.

Yeah I’m totally with that. Really.
I can’t stand it when people try to avoid tactic and build discussion for specific dungeons. I hate it when the “play how I want” or “it works so it’s k” card gets played.
Any criticism on their build gets turned down with ridiculous argument, if you can even call it an “argument”. Most of the time it is bull kitten like “I don’t want to retrait or get one extra set of gear”.

Your whole argumentation misses the point.
Stacking isn’t the cause of problems, it is the symptom. The same goes for skipping.
Killing trash groups is not worth the effort. Even small changes to the loot you get could solve that issue. You know, instead getting 2 claws and a blue for 2 risen hunters and 2 risen illusionists, it should be at least some t5/greens/rares/etc. instead of pretty much no reward. While other mobs (kholer adds for example) can yield relatively good rewards (hell even the champ bag from the cryptling is good enough for a lot of “time orientated groups” to not skip him, and those bags don’t really have that great loot either.
So what’s with the stacking? Some of the stacking comes from extremely weak enemies, another part is caused by the amount of ranged mobs you are facing (ac p2 trap event) and another part is made possible by making up tactics before entering the dungeon, taking into consideration what kinds of tools you need (burst damage, reflection/absorption, blocks, blinds, aoe cc etc.). While I’m all up for fixing the first cause (make enemies “stronger”, so in order to still be able to stack you really need to make up your tactic), I’m against “fixing” cause 2 and 3. There are already enough skill eliminating factors in this game, like scripted agony, ridiculous condi spams (12 stacks of confusion within 1 second, hello aether kitten) or undodgable teleports that will deal a lot of aoe damage to everyone in your group (more aether kitten), we don’t need more of them, at least not for dungeons/fractals.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Well, I’m glad we cleared up where our misunderstandings were happening.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m generally pretty relaxed about this topic….up until the point freedom of choice gets held up as a shield to avoid having to discuss criticisms about dungeons, and being used to aggressively undermine people expressing their negative opinion by pretending they don’t have a right to have it at all.

I am totally okay with you doing your thing, but I am not okay with that.

And I guess we disagree on something pretty fundamental.
I don’t like the idea of a contingent of the subforum arguing against improving encounters to fully engage more of the game’s mechanics just for the sake of sparing these practices. That seems really anti-progress to me.

And I don’t entirely get how you can say you want to preserve stacking as a gameplay, and then agree with Spoj it’s fine to disintegrate stacking so long as melee building choices are still relevant?

It’s simple not every fight needs to be a stack fest, I enjoy fractals because the boss combat is more challenging. If your team is good you can stack on some fractal bosses as well. Go look up youtube vids if you doubt me.

I’m not hiding behind freedom of choice like shield, but I don’t like being told how to play either.

You notice how I don’t say what you’re doing is wrong but you keep telling me I need to change? You’re entitled to your opinion, you’re entitled to play the game any way you can. But if you’re suggesting the deves need change the fundamentals of the game to suit the needs of some of the players then you’re going to have to deal with players that would rather keep the game as it is.

I’m not blocking progress, I don’t want the game system to be transformed into something that caters to a select group of players.

I can see that this will go in circles for a while.

@Agony
If a guy brings his build to the forum and starts a discussion about it, I darned well expect him to respond. If you asked people for help, and they took their time and energy to critique, the very least you can do is not cough out the written equivalent of plugging your ears and saying ‘lalalala I can’t hear you’.

If he didn’t ask for help, and you just felt like tossing a random stranger some /tells, you’re the one whose in the wrong. That’s not a discussion or a discussion forum, that’s just you ranting.

I shouldn’t have to type this out, this is common courtesy.

Also, I’m not sure I follow.
I already know the ‘why’ of stacking/skipping, and I’m totally up for discussion on the ’how’s of getting things in a better place. How does this connect back to what we’re talking about?

@Mastaneenja

I don’t think either of us should play the ‘I speak for the majority’ or the ‘I know what the devs are thinking’ cards. We both feel totally different about it, and we’ll end up in a mire of back and forth that never really gets anywhere because neither of us can prove anything definitely.

Let’s try and keep to a productive area of discussion, and try to do more to get at the heart of our disagreement.

I’m entirely focused on content. I think the content can be in a much better place. I don’t think the behaviors we label as ‘skipping’ and ‘stacking’ are things that could survive the process of getting the content in a much better place.

That doesn’t mean gameplay that involves trying to keep the enemy in one place, or gameplay that involves non-lethal interactions with mobs while you attempt to physically relocate the group from place to another can never exist ever again. They just have to be associated with much better content.

For example;
The multiplying boss for the Marionette is an evolution in this game’s gameplay that involves keeping the enemy in one place.

It’s stages are tied to actual different healthbars creating a time minimum and not allowing you to skip stages, it gets progressively harder as more spawns appear creating escalating tension, and when coupled with the marionette’s heavy AOE or the knockback AOE targeting players regardless of distance and occurring at intervals contra to boss’s attack pattern and your endurance regen it created an actual decision point about whether to get out of the way or stay to keep the mobs together. You can’t get through the marionette without playing by each boss’s rules, and this guy is no exception; giving the entire marionette encounter way more combat variety than pretty much any dungeon and dissolving any contention between players about approach. It had very low stats, because it’s an open world boss, but you get the idea.

This could easily be built upon and made into a revised Subject Alpha encounter and still be conceptually something very much like stacking. But his current gameplay of tossing him into a corner and using buffs to burn through him before he can do much of anything couldn’t exist anymore. Also, the current ability of people to choose how to approach a boss would be lost as well. (which means on bosses whose rules aren’t for stacking, it’s simply not an option no matter how good you are)

As somebody who says they’re fond of stacking, is this an acceptable way to approach improving the content without feeling as though your gameplay has been lost?

@vox hollow
right so you know the causes why skipping and stacking currently exist.
SO here are the issues with the things you wrote:
Skipping/stacking have no place in “good content”. Here are the problems: On the one hand you are taking a choice away from players (regarding skipping). While it would be great to make skips way harder and actually making killing a group or using a thief (bear in mind that one of the few “real” uses of a thief is skipping groups with stealth) to get around it. You could achieve that with things like having many small groups of enemies with little space to lose their aggro. This wouldn’t lead to having you fight a group of for example 6-8 strong risen mobs, which sucks of most groups (or similar mobs).
On the other hand, for stacking, aoe knowbacks or pbaoe damage would make stacking very hard up to impossible. The problem is, it would pretty much kill melees at the same time (inevitable knockbacks are one of the worst things that can happen to a melee, having to fight in a permanent death zone isn’t great either). Now having some mechanics like in the marionette fights (kiting bosses to certain spots) would help with “cheesing down bosses”. But at the same time you need to be careful with that. One of the best examples of these “concepts gone wrong” is the TA aetherpath. What does it have? Unskippable mobs, with the worst kind of mechanic. You HAVE to kill everything, there is no way around it. The doors wont open unless you killed all them aetherblade mobs (which are a joke tbh). The bosses have some mechanics that will punish “stacking” hard. Sawblades or clockwerks that can kill the group/player within 1-2 seconds. (boss attacks that take away skill from the encounter and replace it with gear, fast attacks with moderate-high damage aren’t great in a game without dedicated healers… the defensive resources of pretty much any class are exhausted extremely fast with such a design, however having bosses focus on different players after a set amount of time could make that design interesting again, wasn’t used here though).
Who would have thought, the aetherpath isn’t that popular. It’s not even hard, however the changes made to “counteract skipping” backfired. And again another core reason for this is that the effort/reward ratio is extremely bad.

Regarding adding “time minimums” – this is what I’ve meant with taking skill away. Take the canon barrage from the mai trin encounter for example. It lasts for about 2 minutes. When I first saw it it was interesting. After 5 times I knew how to dodge the bullets. After 20 times it became a borefest. What is missing? A way to speed it up, a place for actual “skill”. For example having to get from one point to the other while carrying some item to reduce the time of the canon barrage by 1/5 of it’s total duration (if everyone manages to pull it off, the phase ends way faster, if not, you have to dance… you get a choice)

Regarding the marionette. I’ve fought her a couple of times. And similar to pretty much all of the new bosses there were good mechanics. However the fights (similar to tequatl) seemed a lot harder to many players than they actually were. The defending parts were a complete joke, and the “boss phase” wasn’t that hard either. The main issue came, kitten often, from the players that didn’t knew about how to fight the marionette (similar to tequatl) AND especially from these who refused to join voicetools for an explanation. Saying “you know what to do” and using staff as a guard for the defense is just one of these ridiculous examples. While these bosses are a step in the right direction, they are far from what people lift them up to. (understandable if you are used to fights like claw of jormag though)
I can guarantee you, if the marionette wouldn’t just have stayed for two weeks, it would have become “freeloot” on certain servers like tequatl.

These things lead me to my final resume on the “fixing” of skips/stacks. My main problem (and a lot of others problem aswell) is the reason that I don’t trust the developer to pull it up in a way that would:
*Retain the element of choice, while not making one option significantly better than the other.
*Keeping the balance between effort/reward.
*Not be some glorified two week content with little replay value.
They have shown that they can infact create intresting fights, however they have also shown that when it comes to tackling “issues” they use the most basic of fixes (“bandaids”) that just can’t really work. A “revised subject alpha” could involve some stupid unavoidable “thoughness checking mechanic”- if zerk is what they want to “tackle” instead of finally improving the ai and giving bosses meaningful attacks.
We can think of plenty ways to encourage the usage of different tactics/gears/traits/utilities even taking the “having a choice” in mind. The problem is just that we wont see such things – what we will see is more bandaid fixing.

So, you agree that skipping is probably a place where there could be development. But you hope that doesn’t mean anti-skipping barriers everywhere, and you’re worried you won’t be able to choose when to skip or not?

Well, we’re 50/50 on that.
I don’t think the answer to making travel-focused skipping-esque gameplay better designed is removing it from the game entirely. So, we’re good there. However, I’m all for these sections being actually designed. If they use scripted encounters, you wouldn’t have a choice about whether or not to participate; you fight mobs or travel through mobs when the game tells you to. So we’re not good there.

So, I also think you’re saying you’re against phases (/time minimums) because you weren’t very impressed with the one you’ve seen?

Admittedly I also thought that section was a bit dragging.
And, I’ve played WoW. So I’ve seen enough phases to know it was a bit much by normal phase standards. I get why you feel the way you feel, but I’m not convinced they couldn’t find a happy medium about how long to make things. I’ve seen the concept work like clockwork for years.

And, I’m not really sure what you want me to say about your trust-level with the Dev team? I can’t make you trust them.

Vox Hollow.2736:

And, I’m not really sure what you want me to say about your trust-level with the Dev team?

They don’t have a dungeon team at all. What more needs to be said about this matter? Any fixes to this will be crude, knee-jerked band-aids from people who don’t understand what the actual issue is or have the knowledge/experience to design something that’s remotely interesting.

In every video game ever created, players have always skipped trash when it wasn’t worth killing. Even when it is worth killing, players will skip it if it saves time. Why anyone would want to fight something that is nothing but an unrewarding, boring chose is beyond my comprehension. I’d rather be doing something actually fun, engaging, and hopefully rewarding for my efforts.

But ArenaNet is also afraid of ever rewarding players for completing challenging content. Just look at the Jungle Wurm boss: This requires way more effort to complete than the Marionette, and yet the Marionette showered the player with loot. The most rewarding thing a skilled players can do in this game is to sell dungeon runs. Good thing we have 10 threads complaining about that too.

Well, again. That’s not really something I can help you with?

The core fallacy of your entire argument against skipping and stacking is that it all comes down to your opinion: “I don’t like this being the best strategy.” As players we don’t make the rules; we just play the game. There’s nothing intrinsically more “legitimate” or “moral” about skipping versus killing trash or stacking versus spreading out. All I can say is: Sorry?

My agenda is pretty simple. I want the game to keep improving. I seriously can’t imagine why that would be strange. I’ve never played a game that didn’t.

I didn’t bring up legitimacy or morality.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Well, again. That’s not really something I can help you with?

Were not asking you to do anything. We are just presenting our side of the arguement. The game doesnt revolve around you. You cant expect a discussion to just end when you have had the last word…

I call dibs on the last word!

Some groups of enemies are hard to kill and have no reward except getting passed them. The same reward comes from just running passed them without taking the 5 minutes to kill the group of mobs.

Stacking doesn’t always work in dungeons, I was playing a dungeon the other day where we tried to stack and wiped 3 times so we had to try a different way. Stacking is the simple solution, which most pugs understand, it’s easier than relying on random people knowing what they’re doing. I happened to luck out that kiting and attacking with that group, we all had an idea of what we were doing.

Vox Hollow.2736:

I don’t think either of us should play the ‘I speak for the majority’ or the ‘I know what the devs are thinking’ cards.

I didn’t say anything of that nature, with regards to the devs. But I will say that most players don’t have an issue with combat in GW2 if they did they wouldn’t be playing the game.

Vox Hollow.2736:

I’m entirely focused on content. I think the content can be in a much better place. I don’t think the behaviors we label as ‘skipping’ and ‘stacking’ are things that could survive the process of getting the content in a much better place.

I think they can, skipping is an intended mechanic this has been stated previously when we had a dungeon team. Other games use skipping as well. Stacking is a simple but effective tactic, to not consider it as a viable strategy is to limit your available toolset. See we have different views here, and you are entitled to your opinion. This is were I say “good day to you” with regards to this. I am tired of repeating myself.

Vox Hollow.2736:

That doesn’t mean gameplay that involves trying to keep the enemy in one place, or gameplay that involves non-lethal interactions with mobs while you attempt to physically relocate the group from place to another can never exist ever again. They just have to be associated with much better content.

For example;
The multiplying boss for the Marionette is an evolution in this game’s gameplay that involves keeping the enemy in one place.

It’s stages are tied to actual different healthbars creating a time minimum and not allowing you to skip stages, it gets progressively harder as more spawns appear creating escalating tension, and when coupled with the marionette’s heavy AOE or the knockback AOE targeting players regardless of distance and occurring at intervals contra to boss’s attack pattern and your endurance regen it created an actual decision point about whether to get out of the way or stay to keep the mobs together. You can’t get through the marionette without playing by each boss’s rules, and this guy is no exception; giving the entire marionette encounter way more combat variety than pretty much any dungeon and dissolving any contention between players about approach. It had very low stats, because it’s an open world boss, but you get the idea.

This could easily be built upon and made into a revised Subject Alpha encounter and still be conceptually something very much like stacking. But his current gameplay of tossing him into a corner and using buffs to burn through him before he can do much of anything couldn’t exist anymore. Also, the current ability of people to choose how to approach a boss would be lost as well. (which means on bosses whose rules aren’t for stacking, it’s simply not an option no matter how good you are)

As somebody who says they’re fond of stacking, is this an acceptable way to approach improving the content without feeling as though your gameplay has been lost?

This is just a scenario that really doesn’t mean much if no one can implement it. We don’t have a dungeon team. You propose changing the rules of the game or mechanics of a fight. I can appreciate the desire for better content, but that’s not something we as players have any control over, nor should we. We play the game we do not design it. I deal with problems, and play video games as they are, I don’t do the abstract because I am not a game designer. If everyone that comes along has a “great” idea and wants it to be implemented into GW2 and it could actually happen somehow it would be chaos. Sure you can make suggestions about how to change the game but since they tanked the suggestions forum I’m not so sure you’ll get very far. You could start a thread with the word Suggestion in it and give it a try.

So let’s review, there’s no dungeon team or a suggestion forum, seems to me like maybe they aren’t interested in what we have to say in some areas. The only thing we as players can do is ask for developer/player interaction and for more, better content such as campaigns or expansions.

You really have two choices here, play the game and it’s rules as they are, or find a new game to play.

All I really see here is alot of painting things as hopeless and inevitable and not alot of Yes or No.

This is an exercise to illustrate various aspects of stacking to determine which parts of it you actually enjoy to see if it’s possible to satisfy both sides. That’s what I meant by ‘getting to the heart of our disagreement’ before. You’re a fan of it. That’s why I’m asking you. There is no other overarching plan. This is pretty cut and dry.

It’s fine if you’re super hopeless about things. I’m not saying you can’t feel depressed. But please, vent in addition to answering, not instead of.

Vox Hollow.2736:

All I really see here is alot of painting things as hopeless and inevitable and not alot of Yes or No.

This is an exercise to illustrate various aspects of stacking to determine which parts of it you actually enjoy to see if it’s possible to satisfy both sides. That’s what I meant by ‘getting to the heart of our disagreement’ before. You’re a fan of it. That’s why I’m asking you. There is no other overarching plan. This is pretty cut and dry.

It’s fine if you’re super hopeless about things. I’m not saying you can’t feel depressed. But please, vent in addition to answering, not instead of.

Maybe you could actually contribute to the discussion rather than talking a load of crap?

Vox Hollow.2736:

This is an exercise to illustrate various aspects of stacking to determine which parts of it you actually enjoy to see if it’s possible to satisfy both sides..

Solution:

Vox Hollow.2736:

All I really see here is alot of painting things as hopeless and inevitable and not alot of Yes or No.

This is an exercise to illustrate various aspects of stacking to determine which parts of it you actually enjoy to see if it’s possible to satisfy both sides. That’s what I meant by ‘getting to the heart of our disagreement’ before. You’re a fan of it. That’s why I’m asking you. There is no other overarching plan. This is pretty cut and dry.

It’s fine if you’re super hopeless about things. I’m not saying you can’t feel depressed. But please, vent in addition to answering, not instead of.

It is possible to satisfy both sides right now. “lfm path 3 no stacking” if you don’t want to stack, “lfm zerk speed run” if you want to stack.

I enjoy stacking (at least in organised groups) because it allows a group to fully synergise with each other as they stay within range of each other’s combo fields and finishers, projectile reflection, condition cleansing etc. and these can be co-ordinated for maximum benefit.

You seem to dislike stacking and want to impose your view on everyone in the game by finding ways to insert anti-stacking mechanics.

Spoiler alert – fractal bosses aren’t suddenly more interesting because they’re less stackable.

@spoj
Well, it’s a thread about stacking and skipping. It’s true I moved away from my original skepticism post. But thought I was still pretty on-topic by seeing if it’s possible to have our cake and eat it too?

You seem to dislike stacking and want to impose your view on everyone in the game by finding ways to insert anti-stacking mechanics.

Not at all! I sung the praises of that marionette fight involving staying in one place. I thought it was great.

/edit: sung not singed. ahhh I can’t grammar.

Vox Hollow.2736:

All I really see here is alot of painting things as hopeless and inevitable and not alot of Yes or No.

This is an exercise to illustrate various aspects of stacking to determine which parts of it you actually enjoy to see if it’s possible to satisfy both sides. That’s what I meant by ‘getting to the heart of our disagreement’ before. You’re a fan of it. That’s why I’m asking you. There is no other overarching plan. This is pretty cut and dry.

It’s fine if you’re super hopeless about things. I’m not saying you can’t feel depressed. But please, vent in addition to answering, not instead of.

Lol I’m depressed? I’m actually quite hopeful that one day we will get an expansion loaded with dungeon fun or at the very least a dev to show up and have an open communication with the player base. The difference here is that I’m living in the now and what is, not what could be or may never be. We may have to fight cyborg penguins with lazers riding hell spiders one day but until they show up I’m not going theorize on how to defeat them or bypass them if the situation presents itself.

They aren’t going to rework the system because some players feel bored or dirty when LOS is used to clump up mobs or to get a boss to sit still. They are too invested in the game’s AI. What they will try to do is make different kinds of boss encounters which most players will fail at and complain about instead of sucking it up figuring out how to defeat the boss. Look at the Aeather path and flood of tears it caused, look at the Marionette failure rate. Unless it’s zerging the general populace of GW2 fails at it and even then zerging isn’t a safe bet either.

Seriously make your own group and play the game the way it is or don’t there is no other alternative at this time. If you want to a better game let them know we need a dungeon team.

I’m asking for your preference.
This should be the same no matter where you believe the game is going.

I am happy that you seem to have hope for the devs, though. If even just for communication. That’s always nice to see.