Guild Wars 2

I’m a firm believer of letting private groups do as they please within the game rules. But when I start up a public run anywhere I personally refuse to use corner stacking tactics, I think it drains the enjoyment out of almost every fight. But I understand why some people do it, so what’s the harm right?

Well in the past few days i’ve been dabbling in dungeons again, I haven’t personally touched them in a while. Getting dungeon master was enough to tap out my interest in them for a few months.

So I start public groups with the expectation that we won’t be stacking in corners. And the overwhelming results of this is that no one can fight the bosses on these terms.

A great example is Kholer who requires very little outside of one dodge every time he does his aoe wire. And of the people who insist on corner stacking, I didn’t find a single one who didn’t take every single scorpion wire.
Only to get snarky comments like… “See this is why you corner stack.” and “Do you have experience here?” while i’m wearing a DM title and dodging every wire.

No this is why you don’t corner stack, because it trains you how not to play the game. So now I feel stuck that if I want to use the LFG to dungeon run I’m gonna have to sit in corners and spam a rotation. Unwillingly, players have turned GW2’s dynamic combat into WoW fights… stand in corners and hit a rotation. So now I don’t feel I can force a party to fight the boss on normal terms. Because dragging 3 people through a dungeon who don’t know how to fight the bosses on the old terms just isn’t happening. None of them seem to have the patience or interest to learn content they already think they are above.

You tell me where do you find all this enjoyment in GW2 obviously flawed dungeon encounters? Ranging, strafing while pressing #1, circling the boss is your idea of fun to? Or is it perhaps the obvious complex and deep encounters the devs have designed for us?

What’s that? Neither of those? I thought so.

We can all start have some fun in dungeons when they actually become fun or
challenging to do. It’s not how changing our mentality will suddenly make dungeons fun. Just because you put a lipstick on a pig, it aint stopped being a pig.

Im doing what it takes to get through dungeons as efficiently as possible, as focusing and striving to beat them as fast as possible is one of the few challenges we have in this game.

Until then, they are nothing more than gold chests at the end.

serialkicker.5274:

First, DM title =/= experienced at dungeons.

No kitten sherlock.

Second, LFG is there, so you can find a group you feel comfortable playing with.
You’re always free to make your own group and put in description “no stacking” or anything else.

I don’t know why the same thread is opened everyday, while you have all the freedom to find like minded players, you can even find or make your guild to get people you like playing with. I’ve seen a lot of guilds that plays dungeons with no skipping and some of them don’t stack either…

Didn’t read what I had to say, did you? Don’t worry I’m used to it around here.

Alice.8694:

Didn’t read what I had to say, did you? Don’t worry I’m used to it around here.

Making yourself stand out to be the ill recieved won’t lead you nowhere tought.

The problem is poor knowledge of encounters by newcomers that copy mindlessly what they see on youtube, and then teach this same badly learned strategy to others.
If you ask most of them why they stack they won’t be able to answer. Pros do it so the bads try to do the same. Funny thing is – that doesn’t make them any better.

It’s a reality players need to come to grip with. When many people use lfg, they go there because they have nobody to go with. But because people are strangers, we need specific criteria. Many of us do dungeons for gold. We do it because it’s a quick way of getting gold. So no, we don’t have the patience to teach every single pug about how to do a dungeon when the entire point is to do it quick.

Kholer is not difficult even if you aren’t stacking. A guardian wall of reflection or a mesmer feedback or even a thief’s smoke screen makes the encounter easy stacked or not. People stack for maximizing DPS, to speed up the process, not because it would be harder if they didn’t, since dungeons are in general very easy anyway.

There’s obviously dungeons that doesn’t have stacking scenarios. Arah, Aetherblade, Fractals. Don’t blame the players, blame the game mechanics. If every boss did an unreflectable AoE at melee range when 3 or more players are meleeing it then there might be more incentive to do it the “normal” way. (Good luck teaching pugs in Aetherblade and finishing it in any time frame short of 1 hour though.)

Miku Lawrence.6329:

The problem is poor knowledge of encounters by newcomers that copy mindlessly what they see on youtube, and then teach this same badly learned strategy to others.
If you ask most of them why they stack they won’t be able to answer. Pros do it so the bads try to do the same. Funny thing is – that doesn’t make them any better.

I agreed though I also think that since the encounters do not really counter this method of play, that is equally part of the problem.

Tachii.3506:

Don’t blame the players, blame the game mechanics. If every boss did an unreflectable AoE at melee range when 3 or more players are meleeing it then there might be more incentive to do it the “normal” way. (Good luck teaching pugs in Aetherblade and finishing it in any time frame short of 1 hour though.)

I wasn’t blaming them, I was concluding that this stacking method has been teaching the general player base bad habits.

Alice.8694:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

The problem is poor knowledge of encounters by newcomers that copy mindlessly what they see on youtube, and then teach this same badly learned strategy to others.
If you ask most of them why they stack they won’t be able to answer. Pros do it so the bads try to do the same. Funny thing is – that doesn’t make them any better.

I agreed though I also think that since the encounters do not really counter this method of play, that is equally part of the problem.

And if they would do, you would complain about how everybody range everything from the distance …

Alice.8694:

No this is why you don’t corner stack, because it trains you how not to play the game.

OMG I thought I knew how to play… Anyone up to teach me from scratch ? I think I have some training wheels (read PTV gear) left somewhere…

Alice.8694:

serialkicker.5274:

First, DM title =/= experienced at dungeons.

No kitten sherlock.

Second, LFG is there, so you can find a group you feel comfortable playing with.
You’re always free to make your own group and put in description “no stacking” or anything else.

I don’t know why the same thread is opened everyday, while you have all the freedom to find like minded players, you can even find or make your guild to get people you like playing with. I’ve seen a lot of guilds that plays dungeons with no skipping and some of them don’t stack either…

Didn’t read what I had to say, did you? Don’t worry I’m used to it around here.

Of course I did. Seems like you have to reread your post.

“So I start public groups with the expectation that we won’t be stacking in corners. And the overwhelming results of this is that no one can fight the bosses on these terms.”
Sorry, you expected to not stack, that doesn’t mean they should not stack, they can play however they want. If you want to play your way, put that in description.

“So now I feel stuck that if I want to use the LFG to dungeon run I’m gonna have to sit in corners and spam a rotation.”
This is why I said you have LFG, where you can make your own group and get people you want.

And… “while i’m wearing DM title….” clearly indicates that you think DM title is something that would show how skillfull player is in dungeons..

P.S. For “stacking haters” I fail to understand how would ranging mobs be more challenging ?

Let’s take hotw troll for example. Try take pug that are not experienced there and try melee troll. You’ll probably get destroyed. Then try range him. It would be hilarious if you would wipe, it’s almost impossible.
And you call that more fun?

serialkicker.5274:

“So I start public groups with the expectation that we won’t be stacking in corners. And the overwhelming results of this is that no one can fight the bosses on these terms.”
Sorry, you expected to not stack, that doesn’t mean they should not stack, they can play however they want. If you want to play your way, put that in description.

I do, hence the expectation.

“So now I feel stuck that if I want to use the LFG to dungeon run I’m gonna have to sit in corners and spam a rotation.”
This is why I said you have LFG, where you can make your own group and get people you want.

Ohh this is Subway? So if I ask for bacon I definitely get bacon and not a slice of cheese pretending to be bacon?
Dumb analogy aside, what you type into an LFG advertisement doesn’t magically garauntee anyone even read it.

Cute lil case in point; when I put “All welcome” i get people joining… Then seeing that as advertised all are welcome regardless of skill, level or class and then quitting. (Also sometimes raging… raging is however optional.)

And… “while i’m wearing DM title….” clearly indicates that you think DM title is something that would show how skillfull player is in dungeons..

No, it means exactly what it says it means… You’ve beaten every path once. Nothing more, nothing less.

It is not so much that it is ruining player skill levels it is that their skill lies elsewhere.

Its like saying guns/bombs/etc ruined how men wage war. Not really Yeah we probably suck at pulling out a longbow and sword right now but 1 tomahawk and am whole army is gone.

As for the DM title.. It is like ap for me. Doesnt mean crap. If anything I worry as DMers tend to be the ones that ignore group makeup and blast full speed ahead with the assumption that everyone is up to speed. When in most of my runs atleast 2 people have never done x path or dungeon before despite having 2-5k ap and possibly legendaries.

DonQuack.9025:

It is not so much that it is ruining player skill levels it is that their skill lies elsewhere.

Its like saying guns/bombs/etc ruined how men wage war. Not really Yeah we probably suck at pulling out a longbow and sword right now but 1 tomahawk and am whole army is gone.

War… War never changes…
Unless this is Metal Gear…
Then it changes way too much.

I agree with the thread name. Partially, because the average skill level was already low before fgs mania.

Alice.8694:

serialkicker.5274:

“So I start public groups with the expectation that we won’t be stacking in corners. And the overwhelming results of this is that no one can fight the bosses on these terms.”
Sorry, you expected to not stack, that doesn’t mean they should not stack, they can play however they want. If you want to play your way, put that in description.

I do, hence the expectation.

“So now I feel stuck that if I want to use the LFG to dungeon run I’m gonna have to sit in corners and spam a rotation.”
This is why I said you have LFG, where you can make your own group and get people you want.

Ohh this is Subway? So if I ask for bacon I definitely get bacon and not a slice of cheese pretending to be bacon?
Dumb analogy aside, what you type into an LFG advertisement doesn’t magically garauntee anyone even read it.

Cute lil case in point; when I put “All welcome” i get people joining… Then seeing that as advertised all are welcome regardless of skill, level or class and then quitting. (Also sometimes raging… raging is however optional.)

And… “while i’m wearing DM title….” clearly indicates that you think DM title is something that would show how skillfull player is in dungeons..

No, it means exactly what it says it means… You’ve beaten every path once. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have never seen weaker arguments. You literally think not stacking is the only “right” way to play and you expect anyone to play like that. Who cares what other people like, right? And yes, if you can’t be bothered with LFG or finding a guild, then don’t even complain here. If you don’t get people that you asked for in lfg, kick them. Same as I will do with you if you ever get in my group. I’m done, your arguments are nonsense, you’re just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Good day.

serialkicker.5274:

I have never seen weaker arguments. You literally think not stacking is the only “right” way to play and you expect anyone to play like that. Who cares what other people like, right? And yes, if you can’t be bothered with LFG or finding a guild, then don’t even complain here. If you don’t get people that you asked for in lfg, kick them. Same as I will do with you if you ever get in my group. I’m done, your arguments are nonsense, you’re just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Good day.

I think i’m being fairly reasonable and at no point did I say anything above that you are accusing me of.

Oh boy! A stacking thread!

So personally I don’t think it’s the stacking that’s ruining player skill. I think it’s skipping. Like I mean, they need to practice killing things! Else they won’t know how.

Anyway it’s very clear that player skill is being ruined and the source is directly related to bunny ears being wearable in combat.

I did an AC with some people a couple days ago and we had no ele – on Kholer like three people got pulled in and thrown in the trash can and then last two of us alive had to finish off the last bit of HP (I got downed like right at the end from poison and then rallied).

Stacking hasn’t ruined player skill levels at all, the only thing you could argue is doing that is fiery greatsword since it literally lets you do so much damage to bypass mechanics. I mean why learn the tells for bosses when you can just spam 4, 3 and 5 in corners and watch a boss melt.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Oh boy! A stacking thread!

So personally I don’t think it’s the stacking that’s ruining player skill. I think it’s skipping. Like I mean, they need to practice killing things! Else they won’t know how.

And looting, if they don’t practice looting… How will they learn?

Anyway it’s very clear that player skill is being ruined and the source is directly related to bunny ears being wearable in combat.

How dare you!

Every week there is one of these threads…

Good heavens! For a moment I thought I had missed our weekly anti-stacking thread.

I haven’t read anything, but I suppose that the OP argues that stacking is not how the game is meant to be played, that only bad players use it and whatnot, as usual.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Good heavens! For a moment I thought I had missed our weekly anti-stacking thread.

I haven’t read anything, but I suppose that the OP argues that stacking is not how the game is meant to be played, that only bad players use it and whatnot, as usual.

Incorrect… But nice try!

How about you write “no stacking” in the LFG and go on your merry way?

From now on, when people complain about “corner stacking and skipping”, they must do Dredge Fractal at Level 50 and kill all the dredge they encounter. I’m tited of AC always being used as the example in these threads.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Oh boy! A stacking thread!

So personally I don’t think it’s the stacking that’s ruining player skill. I think it’s skipping. Like I mean, they need to practice killing things! Else they won’t know how.

Anyway it’s very clear that player skill is being ruined and the source is directly related to bunny ears being wearable in combat.

B-but bunny mesmers! … :<

OT:
I would say that it is not stacking itself that made players bad, but rather bad players didn’t understand why they were stacking and thus gave it a bad rep. They seem to believe that stacking will magically destroy the boss without them taking any damage, when in reality it’s really the other way round. They’re completely missing the point.
Stacking against a boss is usually done to facilitate Fiery Rushes (I think), otherwise there is no point in doing so. Where stacking really shines is when it’s used to group up a bunch of trash mobs using line of sight so you can blind them with a single Black Powder, share boons and pick anyone who goes down with ease.

Alice.8694:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Good heavens! For a moment I thought I had missed our weekly anti-stacking thread.

I haven’t read anything, but I suppose that the OP argues that stacking is not how the game is meant to be played, that only bad players use it and whatnot, as usual.

Incorrect… But nice try!

Are you sure? It was pretty accurate, imo.

Perhaps I should’ve added that other people playing differently than you do ruin your fun.

Either way, I’ve grown to love these anti-stacking/anti-skipping threads.

“Vice is a monster of so frightful mien
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
We first endure, then pity, then embrace.”

Lindbur.2537:

OT:
I would say that it is not stacking itself that made players bad, but rather bad players didn’t understand why they were stacking and thus gave it a bad rep. They seem to believe that stacking will magically destroy the boss without them taking any damage, when in reality it’s really the other way round. They’re completely missing the point.
Stacking against a boss is usually done to facilitate Fiery Rushes (I think), otherwise there is no point in doing so. Where stacking really shines is when it’s used to group up a bunch of trash mobs using line of sight so you can blind them with a single Black Powder, share boons and pick anyone who goes down with ease.

This seems accurate.

My reaction to the thread

deSade.9437:

My reaction to the thread

rip in pepperonis brother

deSade.9437:

My reaction to the thread

Ooo free loot.
loots

I wouldn’t say that stacking has ruined player skill, rather stacking has removed the need to learn many fight mechanics and thus many players are ill-prepared to handle the fights the “right” way.

A player who doesn’t know what they are doing can easily beat many dungeon paths by stacking, which is fine, until they show up in your group that is doing a path where stacking isn’t going to work and that player hasn’t learned anything about dungeons.

haha almost got me! I was about to write a lengthy reply but heard this POOF noise and yep my neck was completly covered in a full bush of hair…. it even burst into flames and started speaking to me but I quickly shaved it

Lindbur.2537:

OT:
I would say that it is not stacking itself that made players bad, but rather bad players didn’t understand why they were stacking and thus gave it a bad rep. They seem to believe that stacking will magically destroy the boss without them taking any damage, when in reality it’s really the other way round. They’re completely missing the point.
Stacking against a boss is usually done to facilitate Fiery Rushes (I think), otherwise there is no point in doing so. Where stacking really shines is when it’s used to group up a bunch of trash mobs using line of sight so you can blind them with a single Black Powder, share boons and pick anyone who goes down with ease.

Pretty much.

Also, stacking isn’t ruining player skill level. It implies that there was a good skill level present to begin with. It’s more accurate to say that it’s not helping to improve it.

mtpelion.4562:

I wouldn’t say that stacking has ruined player skill, rather stacking has removed the need to learn many fight mechanics and thus many players are ill-prepared to handle the fights the “right” way.

A player who doesn’t know what they are doing can easily beat many dungeon paths by stacking, which is fine, until they show up in your group that is doing a path where stacking isn’t going to work and that player hasn’t learned anything about dungeons.

Nice to see someone understands.

Lindbur.2537:

deSade.9437:

My reaction to the thread

rip in pepperonis brother

Wut are those things.

Rip in mushrooms and ham, all rolled in a tasty pizza.
Please, my dear friend, tell my family this was my last wish.

Alice.8694:

mtpelion.4562:

I wouldn’t say that stacking has ruined player skill, rather stacking has removed the need to learn many fight mechanics and thus many players are ill-prepared to handle the fights the “right” way.

A player who doesn’t know what they are doing can easily beat many dungeon paths by stacking, which is fine, until they show up in your group that is doing a path where stacking isn’t going to work and that player hasn’t learned anything about dungeons.

Nice to see someone understands.

Well, then we can agree that stacking isn’t the issue. The issue is that people don’t like to learn and will almost always opt for whatever alternative takes the least amount of effort.

What do you propose? It is difficult/impossible to help someone who doesn’t want to be helped.

Alice.8694:

mtpelion.4562:

I wouldn’t say that stacking has ruined player skill, rather stacking has removed the need to learn many fight mechanics and thus many players are ill-prepared to handle the fights the “right” way.

A player who doesn’t know what they are doing can easily beat many dungeon paths by stacking, which is fine, until they show up in your group that is doing a path where stacking isn’t going to work and that player hasn’t learned anything about dungeons.

Nice to see someone understands.

explain.

don’t give the bullkitten spider queen example. if you just melee her in the open you don’t get poison fields as well. LOSing = quickly bursting and killing her with FGS and in crappy pugs less chance of some moron moving out of melee and getting party wiped

please list bosses where stacking COMPLETELY REMOVES the mechanics. chances are the few (ooze, 2 champions in se p3 if you do that) are exploits/safespots.

in most cases it is simply being in melee range that prevents bosses from using ranged attacks (no kitten) – so what now? melee is exploit?

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Well, then we can agree that stacking isn’t the issue. The issue is that people don’t like to learn and will almost always opt for whatever alternative takes the least amount of effort.

What would you propose? It is difficult/impossible to help someone who doesn’t want to be helped.

Part of me wishes that they’d update the boss fights in order to effectively require you to abide by the mechanics.

The other part of me knows that PUGs would fill these forums with rage if they did that because, as you said, you can’t help people who don’t want help, just as you can’t teach people who don’t want to learn.

Speedclearers care about the speed at which it is cleared. It’s just that many encounters with certain strategies make things much easier because you’re able to bypass many mechanics.

There is a correlation between ease and speed, but not all the time. Speedclearers would sacrifice ease for the sake of speed. But if the encounter would end faster and on the plus side it’s also easier, why the heck not?

If you melee the dredge car in SE p3, it’s much harder than just afk-ranging it, but it’s also much faster, so in a speedclear, you melee it anyway.

But at the end of the day, if all you care is about being forced to play against the game mechanics, then go for it in your own LFG. I honestly don’t see the excitement of doing the Nightmare tree slower.

The OP is right on all counts I think. Firstly, people are misreading the original post. Secondly the use of one single (mindless) tactic leaves players unaware of how any other tactics work, or maybe don’t work. If you only ever use one tactic that negates the dangers of the fight, how are you ever going to learn what those dangers are and how different classes deal with them?

deSade.9437:

Lindbur.2537:

deSade.9437:

My reaction to the thread

rip in pepperonis brother

Wut are those things.

Rip in mushrooms and ham, all rolled in a tasty pizza.
Please, my dear friend, tell my family this was my last wish.

*writes heartbreaking letter*

Stooperdale.3560:

The OP is right on all counts I think. Firstly, people are misreading the original post. Secondly the use of one single (mindless) tactic leaves players unaware of how any other tactics work, or maybe don’t work. If you only ever use one tactic that negates the dangers of the fight, how are you ever going to learn what those dangers are and how different classes deal with them?

It certainly feels that some have misread, have a cookie for getting it.

I agree with OP, it’s also why a lot of “berserker hater” thing Meta is about killing before getting killed. Destroyer of World in SE path 3 is a good example, a lot of PUG will stack in corner and try to Fiery Rush him to death before dying (which always happens because they don’t dodge the big wind up attack), which is useless unless you have 2 Ele, 4 fiery greatsword, it’s just as fast to kill him in the middle of the room (you also don’t have to wait for him to come to you with a NPC that screw up the pull) .

I know this doesn’t apply to everything or everyone but a lot of people thing that stacking is the solution, it isn’t, it makes buffing each other easier, help with reflects. But that doesn’t negate the bosses mechanic (maybe of course in a couple of situations)

Well, I think the OP is just making a statement. He/she isn’t asking to remove stacking from the game or anything. To a degree the OP has a point too.

Although many of the PuGs OP is finding in LFG never understood the base mechanics of the game, they get to watch youtube videos of other groups doing dungeon runs. They see a stack spot and think that it’s a ‘magic spot’ where DPS happens. In reality, half the time it couldn’t really matter less. Sometimes PuGs will even stack corners without even LOSing anything. It’s just how it is.

The whole ‘rush and crush’ style is certainly good to make fast cash or trivialize boring bosses but often it is fun to do things a different way. I don’t think it’s even markedly slower either as long as you’re still playing with good people. That’s what I think the OPs point is.

No reason to make these posts honestly. There is a firmly established community of zerk speedrunners who will always believe they are good at PVE, and telling them otherwise will shatter their reality.

And then there will always be the people who fail to see that a coin always has two sides to it.

Since you wanted to make that remark.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Oh boy! A stacking thread!

So personally I don’t think it’s the stacking that’s ruining player skill. I think it’s skipping. Like I mean, they need to practice killing things! Else they won’t know how.

Anyway it’s very clear that player skill is being ruined and the source is directly related to bunny ears being wearable in combat.

But… But… I love my bunny ears o.o

Romo.3709:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Oh boy! A stacking thread!

So personally I don’t think it’s the stacking that’s ruining player skill. I think it’s skipping. Like I mean, they need to practice killing things! Else they won’t know how.

Anyway it’s very clear that player skill is being ruined and the source is directly related to bunny ears being wearable in combat.

But… But… I love my bunny ears o.o

That’s not what he’s saying either Moon. Judging by your posts, you’re one of those players upset that defines ‘play how I want’ as ‘I want to play a trinity role in GW2 and cannot stand that other players understand the game better’.

The OP actually raises a point about trivializing content and players failing to understand the underlying encounters. You are just crying out because players are doing things quicker than you.

hendo.1940:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Ive done every dungeon in the game and done it with easy simple because of stacking lol. First off, there is no “hard” dungeon in this game because you can stack your way through it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CKyzb3CDHc

It’s not long. Watch it and tell me with a straight face that it’s stacking that trivialised the fight.

You’ve done every dungeon in the game? Great. Your medal is in the mail….This is the dungeon sub. Congrats I guess? acts impressed

Want to see that fight trivialized? That’s what the FGS rushing does. They didn’t use it. Maybe you’re considering reflects an exploit as well? I don’t see where you see ‘stack exploits’ in that video though. Again, you don’t even need to stack on half the kitten in this game and can still kill it just as fast. It’s just a convenient method.

Romo.3709:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Oh boy! A stacking thread!

So personally I don’t think it’s the stacking that’s ruining player skill. I think it’s skipping. Like I mean, they need to practice killing things! Else they won’t know how.

Anyway it’s very clear that player skill is being ruined and the source is directly related to bunny ears being wearable in combat.

But… But… I love my bunny ears o.o

:>

I also see OPs point.
It seems like a pretty logical observation.

If it makes you feel any better, during the Marionette event the PR campaign mentioned something to effect of; ‘we have some idea of where the general player skilllevel is at, and we think people have fun when they’re presented with a challenge just beyond it and have to stretch to meet it’.

Which seems pretty promising as a balance philosophy, if they’d only feel inclined to apply it to dungeons.