Guild Wars 2

I’m a big PVE player. Unfortunately most players out there are in it for the speed run grind/farm fests. That sounds so much fun! I can just stack at a boss and it melts in seconds with zerker gear and dungeon is over in 5-10 minutes. How about I just go back to work at that point, because that sounds more like mindless repetition rather than a fun game.

I was recently in Twilight Arbor and had a small revelation. We were at the spider boss Malrona or whatever her name is, which happens to be a boss that is hard to stack at because of it’s overlapping AOE attack then can wipe a group. I was mesmerized about how bad all the players were in my party at fighting a boss where you couldn’t stack. I had to solo her at the end and laugh to myself while everyone was confused about how to play a game where they don’t smash their face into keyboard to win.

So I think more bosses in this game should have some sort of attack that can wipe a group or severely damage players if they are just stacked on top of each other fighting like mindless nubs. ( maybe overlapping AOE that magnifies in damage when near other players or something similar).

The meta of stacking has sucked the fun out of the game and also crippled new players abilities as well. The learning curve is low. Players can’t hold their own anymore, and can’t think for themselves.

On the plus side, it makes picking off those same players in WvW much more easygoing.

No more stacking! Let’s make this game fun again!
To all those who will reply with “you don’t have to stack, let it be the players choice”. Well first off, you will get kicked out of 90% of all parties out there if you don’t. And let’s be real, you just want things handed to you on a silver platter in easy mode.

This game wasn’t designed to be played the way it is. Players found a way to make it disgustingly easy, maybe it’s time for the game to evolve and bring some GAMEplay back to it. Boss changes needed!

Difficult to fix stacking when there’s nothing wrong with it.

If you have an issue with stacking, create your own LFG that states no stacking.

The issue is that a lot of players, including yourself, do not know the reasons why players stack.

Did you even read my post? You just said exactly what was expected in my second to last paragraph.

Sparrow.5936:

Did you even read my post? You just said exactly what was expected in my second to last paragraph.

I told you to create your own group. Your post was about joining an already existing group.

Oh boy, another one of these.

Help yourselves, folks:

… Dodge the first attack of Malrona to find outwhat it is. After that she will alternate a poison and a spit. The spit is deadly the poison will damage but also gives you a buff to your outgoing damage so you don’t want toa void it.

Even stacked if you simply dodge as the attack is going out you will take no damage.

Your group was just very very bad, the design of the encounter doesn’t discourage stacking at all. Same goes for Subject Alpha in COE, just time your dodges and even the overlapping attacks won’t touch you.

Stacking isn’t some miracle some people make it out to be…

Ayrilana.1396:

The issue is that a lot of players, including yourself, do not know the reasons why players stack.

Ok dude, let’s not make this an kitten battle, of who knows more about this game. I’ve played since release. I get the advantages of stacking, the AOE buffs, fast rezzing, etc..

Don’t try to derail the topic with personal attacks. The point is, it’s easy mode. It’s not fun anymore. You wanna stack for all the buffs and what not, Fine! But give more bosses something to counter it.

Add a trinity, and stacking in corners is fixed. Because the tank is doing this job.

Or, just deal with it. Most good “non pug” speedrungroups don´t stack much anyway.
Since FGS nerf most times not needed (or faster).

Players stack because they are bad players. Bad players always try to find some kind of exploit.

Sparrow.5936:

So I think more bosses in this game should have some sort of attack that can wipe a group or severely damage players if they are just stacked on top of each other fighting like mindless nubs.

The stacking strategy is for “mindless nubs” because the OP doesn’t personally enjoy the current meta for running dungeons quickly and efficiently.

Sparrow.5936:

To all those who will reply with “you don’t have to stack, let it be the players choice”. Well first off, you will get kicked out of 90% of all parties out there if you don’t. And let’s be real, you just want things handed to you on a silver platter in easy mode.

You do realize there are many guilds entirely composed of players who refuse to take part in stacking and skipping mechanics and are always welcoming like-minded players into their ranks, right?

Sparrow.5936:

No more stacking! Let’s make this game fun again!

The most appealing part of stacking to me is it conducive to clearing dungeons faster. The reason why speed clearing is my only priority in dungeons is because the dungeons aren’t fun or challenging, nor are they rewarding enough to be something with truly challenging content. What I’m saying here is that stacking isn’t what made the dungeon experience poor. Poor design made the dungeon experience poor and resulted in stacking. Forcing mechanics that make stacking irrelevant won’t fix the problems with dungeons.

Sparrow.5936:

Ayrilana.1396:

The issue is that a lot of players, including yourself, do not know the reasons why players stack.

Ok dude, let’s not make this an kitten battle, of who knows more about this game. I’ve played since release. I get the advantages of stacking, the AOE buffs, fast rezzing, etc..

Don’t try to derail the topic with personal attacks. The point is, it’s easy mode. It’s not fun anymore. You wanna stack for all the buffs and what not, Fine! But give more bosses something to counter it.

It’s not a personal attack. Quite a number of people do not know.

Sparrow.5936:

Ayrilana.1396:

The issue is that a lot of players, including yourself, do not know the reasons why players stack.

Ok dude, let’s not make this an kitten battle, of who knows more about this game. I’ve played since release. I get the advantages of stacking, the AOE buffs, fast rezzing, etc..

Don’t try to derail the topic with personal attacks. The point is, it’s easy mode. It’s not fun anymore. You wanna stack for all the buffs and what not, Fine! But give more bosses something to counter it.

Stacking combo is one of the worst combat design decisions I have seen in a mmo, WvW would be so much better w/o it. I hope it’s not something we see in GW3.

If you dont like stacking then open a LFG for a “normal” run without it. But if they really make the bosses harder so they have to be played like “intended” you are basically crippling the game more than it already is. You are forcing people to kill the boss in 1 particular way instead of several different ones.
Currently stacking is the fastest way to kill something. Lets be honest, imagine you dont have much time but there is giant pile of wood which needs to be turned into firewood. You have the choice between an ordinary axe and a electric cutter. You would probably pick the electric cutter because its effective and less exhausting.

RagNoRawk.3625:

The most appealing part of stacking to me is it conducive to clearing dungeons faster. The reason why speed clearing is my only priority in dungeons is because the dungeons aren’t fun or challenging, nor are they rewarding enough to be something with truly challenging content. What I’m saying here is that stacking isn’t what made the dungeon experience poor. Poor design made the dungeon experience poor and resulted in stacking. Forcing mechanics that make stacking irrelevant won’t fix the problems with dungeons.

Despite your best efforts , you’re actually helping my cause.

You’re right. If the bosses get harder, the dungeons should be more rewarding too. Time spent vs reward should always be a priority. All good ideas to help make the game more fun.

The only problem with stacking is that 90% of PvE players don’t understand why you stack.

As long as the only role is DPS, everyone can bring utility and dodge is 100% dmg avoidance, then there will be stacking.

Playing smart is not “ez-mode”, it is just playing smart.

Yes I could make the game harder by removing all my armor and never dodging, but that isn’t really the point now is it?

Why can’t the players who like to stack stack and the players that don’t like to stack, not stack? And why can’t they naturally just group themselves accordingly without issue?

Why does one method of dungeon running have to be destroyed?

Sparrow,

Are you doing HOTW or Arah?

Or are you doing the lower level ones like AC/CM/TA

I ask because in April they changed crit damage into ferocity and with it the scaling of it making us do even more damage when scaled down. It was very noticeable at the time as back then with FGS on the AC spider queen pre patch it took like 4-5 rushes, after the patch it took my same group 2…

So yes lower level dungeons bosses just blow up, it’s silly and personally I hate it, and I find those dungeons completely dull now as the fights last only a few seconds even in very mediocre groups.

If you want some longer fights try HOTW they are HP sponges. Try Arah, while not as spongy they are decent fights with good mechanics that you’d really need to be organized to blow up… except that bullcrap lupi gimmick. At the very least go into COE they don’t blow up nearly as fast.

I can’t even get through a damage rotation on AC bosses.

I read the OP and accidentally puked in my mouth.

@OP: Make your own groups. It solves every problem.

Sparrow.5936:

RagNoRawk.3625:

The most appealing part of stacking to me is it conducive to clearing dungeons faster. The reason why speed clearing is my only priority in dungeons is because the dungeons aren’t fun or challenging, nor are they rewarding enough to be something with truly challenging content. What I’m saying here is that stacking isn’t what made the dungeon experience poor. Poor design made the dungeon experience poor and resulted in stacking. Forcing mechanics that make stacking irrelevant won’t fix the problems with dungeons.

Despite your best efforts , you’re actually helping my cause.

You’re right. If the bosses get harder, the dungeons should be more rewarding too. Time spent vs reward should always be a priority. All good ideas to help make the game more fun.

You clearly don’t understand my intentions of posting because you seem to think my “best efforts” are to tell you that you are wrong. This is not what my intentions of posting are. The point of what you quoted, which I summarized clearly, was that fixing stacking alone isn’t enough to make the dungeon experience fun and rewarding enough to be considered “in a good place” because as we all know, dungeons are not in a good place. Stacking is simply the result of players trying to get the content out of the way faster because it isn’t fun.

I agree that stacking is dumb, but we can’t dictate how others choose to play the game. If ANet wants to do something about stacking, they can/will. Otherwise, I prefer fractals since its pretty rare when stacking actually works there.

People only want to speedrun, which involves full zerk and stacking, because running dungeons is one of the very few ways to easily make gold in this game. For all the new players it can be frustrating but for all the people who have been playing this game for 2 years, they dont want to take an hour to run through AC path 1. Its not our fault good ways to make gold dont last in this game.

The argument about players that stack are just bad is silly, they are just trying to make a quick gold. And as several people have stated already, use the LFG tool its a great addition to the game.

This is directly related to how content, encounters, and general combat mechanics are designed. It’s a ‘deal with it thing’ the entire concept of fields and blasting them on demand instantly becomes useless without stacking this is design with intent. Is this over simplifying some things? Sure. In my personal opinion it does make things a bit boring. Action oriented combat where you mostly stand still! applause

I think if stacking could be turned more into a strategical occasional thing to split damage for specific types of attacks and for rebuffs/regroups for healing but have mechanics that punishing you for doing it the entire time. This could be in a number of ways the lowest hanging fruit being types of area denial or amplified damage done to you based on player proximity.

Every time ANet has upped the difficulty on new content people cry rivers and it gets nerfed into oblivion again. The most recent case in point is the trash mobs in silverwastes not a dungeon but still illustrates my point people had to ‘move’ a bit, watch dmg pacing from retal if using fast attacks, avoid getting flanked and nearly 1 shot.. now it’s all fluffy kittens and rainbows again. Expect it to always be there in some form or another unless they decide to make some fundamental changes to combat and encounter mechanics, which I personally find unlikely.

edited: made some clarifications and added a suggestion.

Let’s be honest with yourselves.
RagNoRawk got it right.

You stack not because you enjoy it. Because it’s the fastest way to get your reward. Dungeons aren’t rewarding enough to not do speed clears.

So don’t pretend you’re stacking cause you like it. You do it because you want things handed to you on a silver platter, and you want that platter served to you ASAP.

I’m opposing a way that you can get fast rewards in easy mode, and you don’t like it.

The dungeons should be more rewarding, and the gameplay should be more rewarding too. Dungeons shouldn’t be a chore. If I wanted to stand still I would play an old outdated game. This game was designed to be very action oriented. Now due to poor dungeon design, players turned it into something else.

Not sure why you hate gaming and love farming/grinding. But we need to get out of that mentality. I don’t want to take away your rewards vs time spent. I want to inject some life back into dungies.

The game mechanics push toward stacking.
- Rezzing Down state is faster when you are close to each other
- Boons and other support have limited range
- Melee have an advantage over range
- Most bosses have weak auto-attack which some hard hitting attack

That’s the core of the fighting mechanics of the game. Until they changed that, stacking will always be the more efficient way to go when you can achieve it.

Personally, I don’t think its a bad thing. You don’t need to do it if you don’t want and its a nice thing to have when you want to keep the run as fast as possible after you did the dungeon a couple of hundred times.

Sparrow.5936:

You stack not because you enjoy it.

You do it because you want things handed to you on a silver platter

Not sure why you hate gaming and love farming/grinding.

Arrogant much? O.o

Get out of AC and go try Arah. You’ll find the challenge you’re looking for there.

You stack not because you enjoy it. Because it’s the fastest way to get your reward. Dungeons aren’t rewarding enough to not do speed clears.

I stack when it’s a logical thing to do.

Basic example – do you fight Alphard in the open or do you stack behind a box so that when the daggerstorm happens you aren’t instantly gibbed?

Or do you, like, fight her in the open and then get immediately wasted?

I do not stack when it is illogical. This means groups LoSing bosses where you gain absolutely nothing by LoSing. A basic example would be the final boss of SE p3, there’s basically zero reason to pull it and yet pugs do it because I don’t even know why.

And let’s stop calling them speed clears, garbage 30 minute pug runs of dungeons that have 4 minute world records are not speed runs, let’s stop kidding ourselves. I saw an LFG once of a guy asking for berserker gear for arah path 2, a speed run and then he specifically specified he wanted the path done in 30 minutes tops. People have soloed the path in less time than that. So let’s stop throwing this “speed run” thing around when almost nobody in this thread has even done one before and has no idea what they consist of.

I’m opposing a way that you can get fast rewards in easy mode, and you don’t like it.

You’re literally opposed to players grouping up. Let’s ignore LoSing bosses. Stacking in and of itself is grouping up tightly to either melee or range a boss. You’re opposed to players sticking together to deal with a boss. Do you realise how stupid this sounds?

The dungeons should be more rewarding, and the gameplay should be more rewarding too. Dungeons shouldn’t be a chore. If I wanted to stand still I would play an old outdated game. This game was designed to be very action oriented. Now due to poor dungeon design, players turned it into something else.

The gameplay is rewarding, and dungeons are rewarding. It’s just we’ve had almost the same set of instances for almost two years. After doing something for two years, most people will be bored of it, this is like … human nature.

Not sure why you hate gaming and love farming/grinding. But we need to get out of that mentality. I don’t want to take away your rewards vs time spent. I want to inject some life back into dungies.

If you want to inject life in to them, start soloing them. And not just generic Arah, simple things like AC story, TA story, SE p3, SE p1, HOTW p1 and so on and so forth. Anything which isn’t strictly player-gated (e.g. COE lasers). When you actually have to pay attention to everything around you and not just brain-afk, you’ll enjoy it a lot more.

Sparrow.5936:

This game wasn’t designed to be played the way it is.

I disagree completely. The way it is played is entirely due to conscious design decisions made during and post development. This is not a matter of an unexpected exploit or bug.

I don’t think they need to ‘fix’ stacking in existing content, just make it so it’s not a feasible tactic all of the time in the ‘difficult’ content they plan to create in the future (raids). Not every single boss in the game can be stacked anyway, it’s just that for many it’s a good tactic.

It also works well for pugs because the reduced skill requirement on each individual. If you’re stacked, you can more easily carry the people who are terrible by easily reviving them or buffing them.

Sparrow.5936:

Let’s be honest with yourselves.
RagNoRawk got it right.

You stack not because you enjoy it. Because it’s the fastest way to get your reward. Dungeons aren’t rewarding enough to not do speed clears.

So don’t pretend you’re stacking cause you like it. You do it because you want things handed to you on a silver platter, and you want that platter served to you ASAP.

I’m opposing a way that you can get fast rewards in easy mode, and you don’t like it.

The dungeons should be more rewarding, and the gameplay should be more rewarding too. Dungeons shouldn’t be a chore. If I wanted to stand still I would play an old outdated game. This game was designed to be very action oriented. Now due to poor dungeon design, players turned it into something else.

Not sure why you hate gaming and love farming/grinding. But we need to get out of that mentality. I don’t want to take away your rewards vs time spent. I want to inject some life back into dungies.

You take away one meta and they’ll implement a new meta.

You know what the meta will be? It will be stack, but we don’t have to stack right on top of each other or in the corner anymore.

Because of boons. Because of resurrecting people. Because you are aware of the change that means that anyone who dies can’t waypoint back to life if people are still in combat, right? Dead people don’t do DPS. And if a person is way over on the other side of the map, it may be hard to get over there quick enough without getting yourself downed to help the other person get back up.

Stacking isn’t the meta for speed runs because people want to be lazy and stay in one spot and press 1 over and over again. Stacking is the meta for speed runs because of game mechanics and knowledge of the encounter.

And speed runs aren’t exactly walks in the park. Otherwise they wouldn’t need people in certain gear sets with certain trait sets.

My only point is that stacking is not the cause of a poor dungeon experience but the result of how the game and dungeons were designed. Stacking isn’t the issue. Stacking is only a strategy that, due to the design of the game an dungeon, has been proven the most optimal for a large amount of the dungeon encounters.

You also have to keep in mind, that a lot of people don’t care or even like dungeons and are only doing them as a “necessary evil” on their journey to a legendary…which you need what, about 8 runs? I do enjoy dungeons occasionally with a group that knows what it’s doing, because I generally don’t since I don’t do them often enough. As others have stated, unless the rewards are improved substantially, they’re simply not worth the work without stacking.

dlonie.6547:

Sparrow.5936:

You stack not because you enjoy it.

You do it because you want things handed to you on a silver platter

Not sure why you hate gaming and love farming/grinding.

Arrogant much? O.o

Get out of AC and go try Arah. You’ll find the challenge you’re looking for there.

Holy crap. Didn’t see that. Ya pretty arrogant.

- I don’t enjoy stack? You are right for some situation sure. But as a guardian I usually have a lot of things to do in a stack. I time my aegis, blind, wall, stability, etc. All to make sure the stack go well. As a Elementalist I make sure I have my rotation right so my party have as much might as possible. As a warrior I time my rotation to achieve maximum dps on my hundred blade, because I like to see the big numbers. Don’t do much dungeon with other profession so I can’t talk for them. But as Guardian, Ele or Warrior i usually have fun while stacking. Of course some stack can be boring, but that’s because of how the content is done, not because of stacking. But nice to you to explain how I feel about stacking.

- Because you try to make stuff as easy as you can, then you must want stuff giving to you on a silver plate? How dare you play basketball with running shoes. Why don’t you play with big boots, you want stuff to be handed to you on a silver plate? Why do you sit at range at a boss fight and don’t help your party max out their dps? You want the fight to be easy and be handed to you on a silver plate?

- I don’t like farming and grinding. That’s why I play dungeon when I want to play it. And when I want a particular item so much that I prefer do a lot more dungeon than usual then I want these dungeon to last as little as possible so I don’t get bore and I can play as much as possible into the part of the game that I like the most at the moment.

boons and fields have small range , if we don’t stack , I suppose we have to somehow stay in range of each others’ boon because some people out there don’t like stacking.

Op is correct that the game allows stacking to be the most efficient way of doing pve, and it is the boss encounters themselves which need to be changed.

It has also already been discussed many, many times…

Guys guys we are at the same “melee is exploit” argument now or this is a different topic? I’m start to lose where this is going.

Nemezis spawns an unusual amount of minions after he left the game. That’s amazing achievement.

I hope OP gets what he wants so we can leave this game once and for all and never look back. He can play his “fun” dungeons then. Alone.

^ Oh, but he wont be alone. There are plenty of players out there that hate stacking. Stacking and skipping are lore- and immersion-breaking. Both should be reasons to report players. THIS would get people to play dungeons like arah the way they are intended. This game already got enough bugs that suck kitten. We don’t need people to use them on their advantage. Besides that, the dungeons are way too easy to need some cheesy thing like stacking.

Why does every one of these threads resort to insulting and belittling people who play with efficiency.

spoj.9672:

Why does every one of these threads resort to insulting and belittling people who play with efficiency.

Because they can’t come up with a valid reason against stacking?

If you want stacking to be eliminated you should petition for making boon range something like 900+ instead of 240.

The main reason for stacking is not “exploit the boss” or “he does no damage when you stack” but because its the only reason to get all the buffs shared in the group. Make it like in all other games – boon range is the same as default attack range (900-1200 units). Problem solved – players can actually spread out and position themselves

If you want to remove stacking, you need to beef up the AI of every mob type encountered so that they punish multiple players on one spot. A number of the new Mordrem mobs are good at doing this.

Googled Guild Wars 2 bingo, was not disappointed.

Seera.5916:

Why can’t the players who like to stack stack and the players that don’t like to stack, not stack? And why can’t they naturally just group themselves accordingly without issue?

Why does one method of dungeon running have to be destroyed?

And this right here is what I would also like to ask. If all the different types of players creates their own party and groups with like-minded players, then why should one group feel the need to interfere with the method of another? I hope I worded that right.

Taury.7108:

Googled Guild Wars 2 bingo, was not disappointed.

Off topic but what’s the story behind the “add necro class” box?

Not to be rude or derail this thread but why is it NOT in the Dungeon Forum?

Yes, stacking happens in Open World events, but it’s a totally different mechanic beyond 5 players and Dungeons are a rather small segment of the game (despite what Dungeon runners want to believe).

Ayrilana.1396:

Taury.7108:

Googled Guild Wars 2 bingo, was not disappointed.

Off topic but what’s the story behind the “add necro class” box?

Necro being so bad it’s not considered as a class in PvE for a while. Based on some changes i start to feel Necromancer is intended to be a mob but somehow bugged out and became a playable profession. Oo

Stacking isn’t a problem; it’s a symptom.

For something to be fixed, it needs to be broken. As already discussed at length for the Nth time, stacking is not broken. It’s working as intended. (i.e. staying close for rezzing, boons, support, etc.)

However, after reading the OPs argument, it seems that it’s not stacking that is the issue, but that the dungeons themselves are. The effort vs reward. making them harder, and more rewarding would be a great thing indeed. BUT, people will still find the most efficient way possible to do them. Gamers are inherently lazy, and will find the best possible way to get the most done with the least possible effort.

As Bill Gates once said: “I choose a lazy person to do a hard job. Because a lazy person will find an easy way to do it.”

“Lol, look, you do what you want, I ain’t got time for your kitten.” Bill Clinton

“Make your own LFG, and stop trying to take away choices that make this game fun for players. Don’t complain dungeons are too easy when it is you who decide to only do easy dungeons. Grow some balls and do FOTM50 or ARAH.”
-Albert Einstein