Guild Wars 2

TKiller.6829:

aliksyian.7642:

TKiller.6829:

Teckos.1305:

bosses lack high frequency cleaving melee attacks

And I am so godkitten glad they do.

Why?

Well how do you see a boss with high-frequency aoe attacks working in GW2 at all?

The tactics you’ll have left, depending on the DPS the boss does, will be:
- kill it before you outrun of invulnerability/dodges/hp, which changes nothing
- chain protection and waterfields which is a change of sort but I personally don’t see a lot of fun interaction here
- outgear the damage – no fun at all
- abandon all hope and kite it around the place.

We had Watchknights do this although they also required stability. I don’t think a lot of people had fun meleeing them.

Or! coordinate spikes.

Teckos.1305:

TKiller.6829:

aliksyian.7642:

TKiller.6829:

Teckos.1305:

bosses lack high frequency cleaving melee attacks

And I am so godkitten glad they do.

Why?

Well how do you see a boss with high-frequency aoe attacks working in GW2 at all?

The tactics you’ll have left, depending on the DPS the boss does, will be:
- kill it before you outrun of invulnerability/dodges/hp, which changes nothing
- chain protection and waterfields which is a change of sort but I personally don’t see a lot of fun interaction here
- outgear the damage – no fun at all
- abandon all hope and kite it around the place.

We had Watchknights do this although they also required stability. I don’t think a lot of people had fun meleeing them.

Or! coordinate spikes.

That’s sort of included in the “abandon all hope” since you can take hits and deal damage, then kite around regenerating. If attacks were not aoe with strict agro system then we could add a strategy of coordinating personal invulnerabilities with party damage to the above ones. But if we’re speaking of aoe cleaves with current pretty random agro system it’s way less viable in such situation.

You know honestly, I was about to post that the hostility wasn’t needed at the beginning of this thread. But then I read on and realized…you guys are right. Stacking does go punished if you just do it to do it. It’s the same as other games that have bosses that has certain mechanics and/or conditions you need to meet; doing the aforementioned with a near flawless precision would lead the the misconception that said mechanics and/or conditions are “exploits” or “broken” or the such, when in reality, a lot of players just failed to not use a seemingly “easy” technique.

By saying this, I’m not saying that stacking is uber easy (or hard), rather, as previously stated more than once or twice, it is the failure of understanding why players stack where they do.

That and…

Errant Venture.9371:

. -We have seen this thread before pic-

So although this is my first time seeing one of (many) these posts, I guess I can already put out a stick and slap a sign in the ground pointing to the dead horse.

TKiller.6829:

Teckos.1305:

TKiller.6829:

aliksyian.7642:

TKiller.6829:

Teckos.1305:

bosses lack high frequency cleaving melee attacks

And I am so godkitten glad they do.

Why?

Well how do you see a boss with high-frequency aoe attacks working in GW2 at all?

The tactics you’ll have left, depending on the DPS the boss does, will be:
- kill it before you outrun of invulnerability/dodges/hp, which changes nothing
- chain protection and waterfields which is a change of sort but I personally don’t see a lot of fun interaction here
- outgear the damage – no fun at all
- abandon all hope and kite it around the place.

We had Watchknights do this although they also required stability. I don’t think a lot of people had fun meleeing them.

Or! coordinate spikes.

That’s sort of included in the “abandon all hope” since you can take hits and deal damage, then kite around regenerating. If attacks were not aoe with strict agro system then we could add a strategy of coordinating personal invulnerabilities with party damage to the above ones. But if we’re speaking of aoe cleaves with current pretty random agro system it’s way less viable in such situation.

Well you are not supposed to facetank the mob it cleaves, this move is the automatic defense against high melee pressure. the goal is to control the amount of damage done and the way its dealt.
The key is to control how long, a group of player can maintain it’s highest dps output(melee dps), with a few cleave"auto attacks"(so here we a limiting the amount of time a boss spends recovering from it’s previous move) in between the key moves, first stacking will become a high risk/reward maneuver, fighting a boss will be naturally phased (offence/defense)and a lot of other changes in the way pugs will apprehend a boss.
So gameplay wise it’s much more interesting.

Pugs will just kite, snare and dps from range. Not really an improvement for them.

haviz.1340:

Pugs will just kite, snare and dps from range. Not really an improvement for them.

seeing all the outrage from the few changes with spider queen(which can be burned down in the middle of the room), i doubt it.

COF P1 boss will wreck pugs.

Teckos.1305:

seeing all the outrage from the few changes with spider queen(which can be burned down in the middle of the room), i doubt it.

COF P1 boss will wreck pugs.

It’s quite ironic considering spider queen doesn’t even come in melee range unless you los her.

haviz.1340:

Teckos.1305:

seeing all the outrage from the few changes with spider queen(which can be burned down in the middle of the room), i doubt it.

COF P1 boss will wreck pugs.

It’s quite ironic considering spider queen doesn’t even come in melee range unless you los her.

Just to make it clear (just in case the irony comes from the fact that i was talking about melee cleaves) I used the SQ example to illustrate the fact that people will wipe on anything even while kiting.

Teckos.1305:

Just to make it clear (just in case the irony comes from the fact that i was talking about melee cleaves) I used the SQ example to illustrate the fact that people will wipe on anything even while kiting.

It’s ironic because you don’t even have to kite this boss (she doesn’t come in melee range).

WHY WE STACK

1) Combo Fields have a small radius
2) Players boons have a Small radius
3) Melee is more damaging
4) Kitting takes longer to kill, less time Hitting the boss
5) If someone dies everyone is there to pick up fast
6) Utilities have small range (Null field, Wall of Reflect, Guardian Symblems etc…)
7) Players aoe skills and Cleve attacks have a Small range
8) Good players stack with or without corners due to the above.

Your wanting to remove LoS cornering, that is fine, if anet doesnt like us doing it they can remove it, BUT!!!! You will NEVER remove stacking in this game AS LONG AS the mechanics stay the same.

Spider queen is still too hard

@OP: I don’t really get it. How do you want to prevent players from being nearby each other and how is it an exploit? LoSing – the same. Would you expect the enemy to try to kill the players through wall or from behind a corner? It is pretty obvious that if the enemy cannot reach them, it will come closer so that it can hit them.
If you really believe that there should be no tactics or organization during battles and strafing around instead while mashing the same buttons randomly “is much more skill”, try to say it to the romans…

Or, I dunno, make a YOLO only PUG? Wait, where have I heard that before?

Teckos.1305:

Well you are not supposed to facetank the mob it cleaves, this move is the automatic defense against high melee pressure. the goal is to control the amount of damage done and the way its dealt.
The key is to control how long, a group of player can maintain it’s highest dps output(melee dps), with a few cleave"auto attacks"(so here we a limiting the amount of time a boss spends recovering from it’s previous move) in between the key moves, first stacking will become a high risk/reward maneuver, fighting a boss will be naturally phased (offence/defense)and a lot of other changes in the way pugs will apprehend a boss.
So gameplay wise it’s much more interesting.

Uh, an enrage of sorts?

Basically what do you propose then: at certain point of people meleeing the boss it flips tables and starts cleaving in a radius.

Two and a half choices here: it never stops that move till people kitten off which brings us back to what I posted before.

Or it cleaves for some time and stops. Man, that’s just a burst skill then. We have plenty of those already and they force people to take defensive measures. The only point that makes it different from, say, Frenzied Blast or Teeth of Primordus, is that you can’t counterplay high frequence melee attacks with aegis or reflection. And it only triggers at specific conditions promoting lazy gameplay.

And it can be at the middle ground between above, like, steady dps lasting long enough to waste people’s dodges and defence utility and a bit more which is solved by a mix of above solutions, maybe promoting water field usage in the encounter. Water fields are generally underused in PvE but massive spread of such a counterplay isn’t that great either.

Can’t reinvent the bycicle. A move that just tells you to get out with no counterplay isn’t fun. A move that has a counterplay already has that counterplay known and tried.

TKiller.6829:

Teckos.1305:

Well you are not supposed to facetank the mob it cleaves, this move is the automatic defense against high melee pressure. the goal is to control the amount of damage done and the way its dealt.
The key is to control how long, a group of player can maintain it’s highest dps output(melee dps), with a few cleave"auto attacks"(so here we a limiting the amount of time a boss spends recovering from it’s previous move) in between the key moves, first stacking will become a high risk/reward maneuver, fighting a boss will be naturally phased (offence/defense)and a lot of other changes in the way pugs will apprehend a boss.
So gameplay wise it’s much more interesting.

Uh, an enrage of sorts?

Basically what do you propose then: at certain point of people meleeing the boss it flips tables and starts cleaving in a radius.

Two and a half choices here: it never stops that move till people kitten off which brings us back to what I posted before.

Or it cleaves for some time and stops. Man, that’s just a burst skill then. We have plenty of those already and they force people to take defensive measures. The only point that makes it different from, say, Frenzied Blast or Teeth of Primordus, is that you can’t counterplay high frequence melee attacks with aegis or reflection. And it only triggers at specific conditions promoting lazy gameplay.

And it can be at the middle ground between above, like, steady dps lasting long enough to waste people’s dodges and defence utility and a bit more which is solved by a mix of above solutions, maybe promoting water field usage in the encounter. Water fields are generally underused in PvE but massive spread of such a counterplay isn’t that great either.

Can’t reinvent the bycicle. A move that just tells you to get out with no counterplay isn’t fun. A move that has a counterplay already has that counterplay known and tried.

Simpler solution. Replace the boss with a party of legendary/champ mobs and Make sure they have a variety of abilities. HP should be commensurate with legendaries as opposed to uber bosses whose difficulty is all about high HP pool with hard hitting 1 shotters

ah yes, the elusive “one shotters” which nobody in the game can ever give reference to

One word: Mechanics.

Faux pegged it with his list. Stacking happens because the game mechanics reward it. All the buttons we mash while playing are enhanced by players being in close proximity to each other. Melee does more damage than ranged. Combo field effects happen because people are on each other. That’s the way the game was designed. If you take issue with that, it’s Anet’s fault and up to Anet to change it.

If you want to build a house with nothing but a hammer and a handsaw, you can do it. It’ll be long, hard and tedious, but it’ll get done with enough effort. These days, most of us would like to use power tools and air nailers to cut down the time and effort, either so we can build more houses or so we can sit on the porch we built and drink lemonade.

maha.7902:

ah yes, the elusive “one shotters” which nobody in the game can ever give reference to

But think of the children! (Never been one shot myself, but I thought I’d be considerate)

Azrael.4960:

maha.7902:

ah yes, the elusive “one shotters” which nobody in the game can ever give reference to

But think of the children! (Never been one shot myself, but I thought I’d be considerate)

Well… Ive been instant downed MANY times, mostly 1 attack with multi hits, like Mossmans Gouge, it hits you 2x for 12-15k each hit.

Hammer guy from Cliffside, his Big Bash hit, 1hits me 18k+

SE p1 the 1st Champ his Tunnel attack.. 1 hit me for 25k+ damage.

Arah p3 1st Boss, you dont move you dead.

I wrote about this in detail awhile ago, but Faux covered a lot of things with his list.

The thing with stacking is that nearly everything in the game encourages stacking. These bosses aren’t big, with many being player sized. or smaller. If you try to get 5 people in melee range, it’ll be harder to not stack.

To all the people against stacking let’s break this down logically. Stacking is around for combos, boon share, and faster kills through cleave damage.

Even with collision, stacking would still exist because boon share, combos, and melee cleave would still be available. The only difference would be that players could grief each other by body blocking paths in the game or pushing each other off of cliffs. GG ‘playhowiwanters’.

Another option would be making boons party wide, giving ranged players party boons and allowing them to contribute their buffs. They would still be unable to contribute to combo fields and would not be cleaving. Still lower DPS. Essentially, a party would still have to carry a longbow Ranger through an instance.

I’ve stated this idea before and I think I’ll state it again. Since stacking is so incredibly effective in this game providing a highly desirable amount of bonuses, why doesn’t Anet retool encounters so the party will have to fight to achieve a stack and fight to maintain it?
Stacking would go from the standard mode of combat so something akin to a powerplay. Good teams would achieve stacking earlier, average may take longer and below average may not even want to bother trying to stack.

One idea of how they could impliment it on bosses would be a rework on defiant. Say the boss starts with a layer of defiant and rather that it ticking down whenever you hit it with a CC, you’d instead only be able to tick it down if that attack was to be an interrupt. The boss’ would have a high rate of attack with limitless cleave while it’s in it’s default state, but if you can get down its defiant stack it’ll become debuffed and attack way slower. It’ll also have a key attack you’ll have to watch out for, if you interrupt the attack it’ll stay debuffed but if you’ve used your CCs unwisely it’ll land the attack and revert to it’s regular state.

Deep down Twilight Arbor close to Caledon
Way back up in the woods among the dungeon

There stood a log cabin made of wood and bone
Where lived a country boy named Stacking B. Gone

Who never ever learned to read a guide so well
But he could play the Warrior just like a ringing a bell

Go go
Go Stacking, go, go
Go Stacking, go, go
Stacking B. Gone

Lucas.9157:

Deep down Twilight Arbor close to Caledon
Way back up in the woods among the dungeon

There stood a log cabin made of wood and bone
Where lived a country boy named Stacking B. Gone

Who never ever learned to read a guide so well
But he could play the Warrior just like a ringing a bell

Go go
Go Stacking, go, go
Go Stacking, go, go
Stacking B. Gone

Please come to EU and marry me.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

It is pretty obvious that if the enemy cannot reach them, it will come closer so that it can hit them.

Not taking sides here, but there are plenty of game AIs which handle these situations so much more realistically. The game that comes to my mind is Path of Exile. The monsters stop chasing you fairly quickly and won’t consistently follow you (they will often just stop and wander around) if you LoS them, especially into small places.

Then there are other games where big monsters don’t go into spaces that are smaller than them (many bosses in Gw2 don’t even fit into the stacking spots visually).

The thing that often bugs me (here comes another gw1 vs gw2 comparison) is that in Gw1 mobs that get aggroed will run towards you but will maintain separation to minimise AOE. They’d also run out of an AOE after a certain number of ticks.

Now, I’m not suggesting that every moose/moa and minotaur be granted the AI to run away from AOE’s but certainly “sentient” mobs like bandits, centaurs, sons of svanir, jotun, grawl, ogres should at least have a mind to get out of aoe or cleave range after copping a few hits.

Imagine the zillions of bad players exposed if they suddenly “fix” stacking… that would be fun to watch.

To me, both sides of the stacking debate seem to be saying the same thing two different ways.

Anti-stacking people: “Stacking is no fun and needs to be fixed. Here are some ideas about how to change the mechanics to fix it.”

Anti-anti-stacking people: “NO! Stacking is the natural result of the game’s mechanics!”

Am I missing something?

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

To me, both sides of the stacking debate seem to be saying the same thing two different ways.

Anti-stacking people: “Stacking is no fun and needs to be fixed. Here are some ideas about how to change the mechanics to fix it.”

Anti-anti-stacking people: “NO! Stacking is the natural result of the game’s mechanics!”

Am I missing something?

You’re missing this part:

Anti-stacking: “We do not enjoy stacking. Please change the game for everyone.”

Pro-stacking: “Make your own groups— you don’t have to stack. You can play how you want, and we can play how we want.”

You know, I’d actually like our dungeons to have a difficulty tweak.
It would be fun to watch all these playhowIwants realise that they’ve been dancing on their own graves all this time, while the decent/good players simply adapt to it and continue speedclearing it.

Then ANET would nerf them because QQ too strong.

Azrael.4960:

The thing that often bugs me (here comes another gw1 vs gw2 comparison) is that in Gw1 mobs that get aggroed will run towards you but will maintain separation to minimise AOE.

Don’t go there. GW ranged mobs would happily plink away at characters while their arrows, etc. bounced harmlessly off the intervening objects. Yes, they maintained range, but at least in 2 the mobs move to where they have a chance to hit.

Time Glitch.2460:

I know all you professional dungeon runners are in love with the idea of cheesing down content to get it done faster, but for all of us that actually enjoy fighting bosses and doing PvE content, stacking is killing our love for this game.

Ehh, no? “Professional dungeon runners” want to master the content as fast and as smooth as it is possible. So do they use stacking to be as fast as possible? Yes, for the most part.
Are they in love with stacking? No, not really. So I don’t know why you accuse a part of the community of wanting cheesy content?
Aren’t those “professionals” the people who want more challenging content? Or did I miss something? Harder content wont stop them running dungeons. Harder content just stops the “casual whiners”. And they’ll start to whine a lot.

So if you want to make content more challenging, most people in this subforum would love it, me included. But if done so, the rewards have to be increased too.
Just “fixing” stacking wont help, the bosses will stay as easy as they’re now. It will just take longer.

maxinion.8396:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

To me, both sides of the stacking debate seem to be saying the same thing two different ways.

Anti-stacking people: “Stacking is no fun and needs to be fixed. Here are some ideas about how to change the mechanics to fix it.”

Anti-anti-stacking people: “NO! Stacking is the natural result of the game’s mechanics!”

Am I missing something?

You’re missing this part:

Anti-stacking: “We do not enjoy stacking. Please change the game for everyone.”

Pro-stacking: “Make your own groups— you don’t have to stack. You can play how you want, and we can play how we want.”

Well I guess my answer to that is that willfully handicapping oneself doesn’t create the same feeling of challenge and reward. Solving something the hard way isn’t a great achievement if there also exists a trivial solution. Therefore, anti-stackers can’t really “play how they want” if what they want is for there to be an actual in-game (not self-imposed) motive to play in a way that looks appealing on-screen and simulates an actual fantasy encounter.

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

maxinion.8396:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

To me, both sides of the stacking debate seem to be saying the same thing two different ways.

Anti-stacking people: “Stacking is no fun and needs to be fixed. Here are some ideas about how to change the mechanics to fix it.”

Anti-anti-stacking people: “NO! Stacking is the natural result of the game’s mechanics!”

Am I missing something?

You’re missing this part:

Anti-stacking: “We do not enjoy stacking. Please change the game for everyone.”

Pro-stacking: “Make your own groups— you don’t have to stack. You can play how you want, and we can play how we want.”

Well I guess my answer to that is that willfully handicapping oneself doesn’t create the same feeling of challenge and reward. Solving something the hard way isn’t a great achievement if there also exists a trivial solution. Therefore, anti-stackers can’t really “play how they want” if what they want is for there to be an actual in-game (not self-imposed) motive to play in a way that looks appealing on-screen and simulates an actual fantasy encounter.

You want stacking gone because it would make bosses harder?
No, it really does not make them harder. Their weak design does encourage stacking in the first place. It would take longer, yes. But it wont make those bosses more thrilling to fight.
So if you want to end stacking, come up with more challenging content with an appropriate reward.

You just have to ask yourself if you want to run dungeons because of the fun you have doing so or because of the loot. I do run dungeons because of the loot and I use stacking whenever it is possible. That doesn’t mean that I’m a stacking lover, just that I want to get past this repetitive content as fast as possible.

SQ 10 times as hard now!!!
http://youtu.be/-3wo-Jg93t0

IndigoSundown.5419:

Azrael.4960:

The thing that often bugs me (here comes another gw1 vs gw2 comparison) is that in Gw1 mobs that get aggroed will run towards you but will maintain separation to minimise AOE.

Don’t go there. GW ranged mobs would happily plink away at characters while their arrows, etc. bounced harmlessly off the intervening objects. Yes, they maintained range, but at least in 2 the mobs move to where they have a chance to hit.

Ah, but at least they didn’t just stand in melee with everyone else lining up to be cleaved down!

Its been a while but for some reason I recall when running mesway they usually all died in a nice little bunch. Infact I think unless fire/earth ele you were usually fine at bunching them up and the few that did flee didnt flee far or long enough to not stop taking damage. “been a while”

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

maxinion.8396:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

To me, both sides of the stacking debate seem to be saying the same thing two different ways.

Anti-stacking people: “Stacking is no fun and needs to be fixed. Here are some ideas about how to change the mechanics to fix it.”

Anti-anti-stacking people: “NO! Stacking is the natural result of the game’s mechanics!”

Am I missing something?

You’re missing this part:

Anti-stacking: “We do not enjoy stacking. Please change the game for everyone.”

Pro-stacking: “Make your own groups— you don’t have to stack. You can play how you want, and we can play how we want.”

Well I guess my answer to that is that willfully handicapping oneself doesn’t create the same feeling of challenge and reward. Solving something the hard way isn’t a great achievement if there also exists a trivial solution. Therefore, anti-stackers can’t really “play how they want” if what they want is for there to be an actual in-game (not self-imposed) motive to play in a way that looks appealing on-screen and simulates an actual fantasy encounter.

You want stacking gone because it would make bosses harder?
No, it really does not make them harder. Their weak design does encourage stacking in the first place. It would take longer, yes. But it wont make those bosses more thrilling to fight.
So if you want to end stacking, come up with more challenging content with an appropriate reward.

You just have to ask yourself if you want to run dungeons because of the fun you have doing so or because of the loot. I do run dungeons because of the loot and I use stacking whenever it is possible. That doesn’t mean that I’m a stacking lover, just that I want to get past this repetitive content as fast as possible.

I’m just trying to help point out the problem. I don’t have the solution. As for “appropriate reward,” I would personally have no problem with the rewards remaining as they are even if more challenging and thrilling content were introduced to the dungeons. Frankly, I don’t see what the reward has to do with it.

Maybe my failure to get your point about the reward stems from my answer to your last question: I run dungeons for fun. Getting loot is also fun, but hardly an end in itself. I mean, how can it be an end in itself if it has no value outside the game?

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

snip

Try to remember you arent the only person playing the game. Rewards make or break lots of games.

Remove the gold from dungeons and see how many people would still run them.
Queensdale train got its champs nerfed(loot nerf) how many people still run that?

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

maxinion.8396:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

To me, both sides of the stacking debate seem to be saying the same thing two different ways.

Anti-stacking people: “Stacking is no fun and needs to be fixed. Here are some ideas about how to change the mechanics to fix it.”

Anti-anti-stacking people: “NO! Stacking is the natural result of the game’s mechanics!”

Am I missing something?

You’re missing this part:

Anti-stacking: “We do not enjoy stacking. Please change the game for everyone.”

Pro-stacking: “Make your own groups— you don’t have to stack. You can play how you want, and we can play how we want.”

Well I guess my answer to that is that willfully handicapping oneself doesn’t create the same feeling of challenge and reward. Solving something the hard way isn’t a great achievement if there also exists a trivial solution. Therefore, anti-stackers can’t really “play how they want” if what they want is for there to be an actual in-game (not self-imposed) motive to play in a way that looks appealing on-screen and simulates an actual fantasy encounter.

You want stacking gone because it would make bosses harder?
No, it really does not make them harder. Their weak design does encourage stacking in the first place. It would take longer, yes. But it wont make those bosses more thrilling to fight.
So if you want to end stacking, come up with more challenging content with an appropriate reward.

You just have to ask yourself if you want to run dungeons because of the fun you have doing so or because of the loot. I do run dungeons because of the loot and I use stacking whenever it is possible. That doesn’t mean that I’m a stacking lover, just that I want to get past this repetitive content as fast as possible.

I’m just trying to help point out the problem. I don’t have the solution. As for “appropriate reward,” I would personally have no problem with the rewards remaining as they are even if more challenging and thrilling content were introduced to the dungeons. Frankly, I don’t see what the reward has to do with it.

Maybe my failure to get your point about the reward stems from my answer to your last question: I run dungeons for fun. Getting loot is also fun, but hardly an end in itself. I mean, how can it be an end in itself if it has no value outside the game?

Ya know what. I just read my last comment and decided it’s unnecessarily argumentative and off-topic. People like loot. Fine, that’s legit. I’d rather keep talking about how and whether to change encounters to discourage stacking.

DonQuack.9025:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

snip

Try to remember you arent the only person playing the game. Rewards make or break lots of games.

Remove the gold from dungeons and see how many people would still run them.
Queensdale train got its champs nerfed(loot nerf) how many people still run that?

Ah, see our comments crossed. Consider my loot point retracted

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

maxinion.8396:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

To me, both sides of the stacking debate seem to be saying the same thing two different ways.

Anti-stacking people: “Stacking is no fun and needs to be fixed. Here are some ideas about how to change the mechanics to fix it.”

Anti-anti-stacking people: “NO! Stacking is the natural result of the game’s mechanics!”

Am I missing something?

You’re missing this part:

Anti-stacking: “We do not enjoy stacking. Please change the game for everyone.”

Pro-stacking: “Make your own groups— you don’t have to stack. You can play how you want, and we can play how we want.”

Well I guess my answer to that is that willfully handicapping oneself doesn’t create the same feeling of challenge and reward. Solving something the hard way isn’t a great achievement if there also exists a trivial solution. Therefore, anti-stackers can’t really “play how they want” if what they want is for there to be an actual in-game (not self-imposed) motive to play in a way that looks appealing on-screen and simulates an actual fantasy encounter.

Of course anti-stackers can play how they want, they just don’t stack, ez pz.

But funnily enough, while berserker players don’t mind making their own groups, anti-stackers will endlessly drone on about how they can’t get in to groups rather than just making their own ones because it’s just too hard for them to type a description in the LFG and wait.

maha.7902:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

maxinion.8396:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

To me, both sides of the stacking debate seem to be saying the same thing two different ways.

Anti-stacking people: “Stacking is no fun and needs to be fixed. Here are some ideas about how to change the mechanics to fix it.”

Anti-anti-stacking people: “NO! Stacking is the natural result of the game’s mechanics!”

Am I missing something?

You’re missing this part:

Anti-stacking: “We do not enjoy stacking. Please change the game for everyone.”

Pro-stacking: “Make your own groups— you don’t have to stack. You can play how you want, and we can play how we want.”

Well I guess my answer to that is that willfully handicapping oneself doesn’t create the same feeling of challenge and reward. Solving something the hard way isn’t a great achievement if there also exists a trivial solution. Therefore, anti-stackers can’t really “play how they want” if what they want is for there to be an actual in-game (not self-imposed) motive to play in a way that looks appealing on-screen and simulates an actual fantasy encounter.

Of course anti-stackers can play how they want, they just don’t stack, ez pz.

But funnily enough, while berserker players don’t mind making their own groups, anti-stackers will endlessly drone on about how they can’t get in to groups rather than just making their own ones because it’s just too hard for them to type a description in the LFG and wait.

I can’t really comment on that. Personally, I have no problem at all forming groups to my liking. Recently, I type “not a speed clear” as part of the LFG comments. I’m generally satisfied with the like-minded people I find this way.

My point was not that it’s hard to find groups. My point was that it is less rewarding to intentionally handicap oneself. The game itself should always strive toward encouraging the most entertaining experience. In my opinion, the most entertaining experience would more closely simulate an actual combat, i.e. not stacking.

Or were you being sarcastic?

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

maxinion.8396:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

To me, both sides of the stacking debate seem to be saying the same thing two different ways.

Anti-stacking people: “Stacking is no fun and needs to be fixed. Here are some ideas about how to change the mechanics to fix it.”

Anti-anti-stacking people: “NO! Stacking is the natural result of the game’s mechanics!”

Am I missing something?

You’re missing this part:

Anti-stacking: “We do not enjoy stacking. Please change the game for everyone.”

Pro-stacking: “Make your own groups— you don’t have to stack. You can play how you want, and we can play how we want.”

Well I guess my answer to that is that willfully handicapping oneself doesn’t create the same feeling of challenge and reward. Solving something the hard way isn’t a great achievement if there also exists a trivial solution. Therefore, anti-stackers can’t really “play how they want” if what they want is for there to be an actual in-game (not self-imposed) motive to play in a way that looks appealing on-screen and simulates an actual fantasy encounter.

You want stacking gone because it would make bosses harder?
No, it really does not make them harder. Their weak design does encourage stacking in the first place. It would take longer, yes. But it wont make those bosses more thrilling to fight.
So if you want to end stacking, come up with more challenging content with an appropriate reward.

You just have to ask yourself if you want to run dungeons because of the fun you have doing so or because of the loot. I do run dungeons because of the loot and I use stacking whenever it is possible. That doesn’t mean that I’m a stacking lover, just that I want to get past this repetitive content as fast as possible.

I’m just trying to help point out the problem. I don’t have the solution. As for “appropriate reward,” I would personally have no problem with the rewards remaining as they are even if more challenging and thrilling content were introduced to the dungeons. Frankly, I don’t see what the reward has to do with it.

Maybe my failure to get your point about the reward stems from my answer to your last question: I run dungeons for fun. Getting loot is also fun, but hardly an end in itself. I mean, how can it be an end in itself if it has no value outside the game?

Why do try to accomplish things in life if we’re going to lose them when we die?
It’s all about perspective. Unless you believe in some sort of afterlife (and even then, in the very long run), there’s no point in doing anything.
We do things and expect some sort of reward from them because that’s the way we’re wired. Looking too much into it can be dangerous.

can’t really comment on that. Personally, I have no problem at all forming groups to my liking. Recently, I type “not a speed clear” as part of the LFG comments. I’m generally satisfied with the like-minded people I find this way.

My point was not that it’s hard to find groups. My point was that it is less rewarding to intentionally handicap oneself. The game itself should always strive toward encouraging the most entertaining experience. In my opinion, the most entertaining experience would more closely simulate an actual combat, i.e. not stacking.

Or were you being sarcastic?

And that, good sir, is your opinion.

I personally despise facerolling dungeons so I pug them, solo or low-man them. Therefore, my most entertaining experience would be for encounters designed around solo play – but you see, I know that I’m an extreme minority and I don’t demand ANet to cater the game around me. Anti-stackers repeatedly demand ANet cater the game around them, despite being a minority.

only 2 kind of players supports stacking:

a) bad players who can’t dodge
b) players who played so much they don’t want to play anymore and just get rid of content as fast as they can

Both should not be casting their biased opinion unless they have a solid argument on how stacking makes this game better.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

maxinion.8396:

Stephen McBeaven.5640:

To me, both sides of the stacking debate seem to be saying the same thing two different ways.

Anti-stacking people: “Stacking is no fun and needs to be fixed. Here are some ideas about how to change the mechanics to fix it.”

Anti-anti-stacking people: “NO! Stacking is the natural result of the game’s mechanics!”

Am I missing something?

You’re missing this part:

Anti-stacking: “We do not enjoy stacking. Please change the game for everyone.”

Pro-stacking: “Make your own groups— you don’t have to stack. You can play how you want, and we can play how we want.”

Well I guess my answer to that is that willfully handicapping oneself doesn’t create the same feeling of challenge and reward. Solving something the hard way isn’t a great achievement if there also exists a trivial solution. Therefore, anti-stackers can’t really “play how they want” if what they want is for there to be an actual in-game (not self-imposed) motive to play in a way that looks appealing on-screen and simulates an actual fantasy encounter.

You want stacking gone because it would make bosses harder?
No, it really does not make them harder. Their weak design does encourage stacking in the first place. It would take longer, yes. But it wont make those bosses more thrilling to fight.
So if you want to end stacking, come up with more challenging content with an appropriate reward.

You just have to ask yourself if you want to run dungeons because of the fun you have doing so or because of the loot. I do run dungeons because of the loot and I use stacking whenever it is possible. That doesn’t mean that I’m a stacking lover, just that I want to get past this repetitive content as fast as possible.

I’m just trying to help point out the problem. I don’t have the solution. As for “appropriate reward,” I would personally have no problem with the rewards remaining as they are even if more challenging and thrilling content were introduced to the dungeons. Frankly, I don’t see what the reward has to do with it.

Maybe my failure to get your point about the reward stems from my answer to your last question: I run dungeons for fun. Getting loot is also fun, but hardly an end in itself. I mean, how can it be an end in itself if it has no value outside the game?

Why do try to accomplish things in life if we’re going to lose them when we die?
It’s all about perspective. Unless you believe in some sort of afterlife (and even then, in the very long run), there’s no point in doing anything.
We do things and expect some sort of reward from them because that’s the way we’re wired. Looking too much into it can be dangerous.

I retracted that comment you bolded a few posts down. I’d rather not delve further into it.

maha.7902:

can’t really comment on that. Personally, I have no problem at all forming groups to my liking. Recently, I type “not a speed clear” as part of the LFG comments. I’m generally satisfied with the like-minded people I find this way.

My point was not that it’s hard to find groups. My point was that it is less rewarding to intentionally handicap oneself. The game itself should always strive toward encouraging the most entertaining experience. In my opinion, the most entertaining experience would more closely simulate an actual combat, i.e. not stacking.

Or were you being sarcastic?

And that, good sir, is your opinion.

I personally despise facerolling dungeons so I pug them, solo or low-man them or join one of Lilith’s terrible teams. Therefore, my most entertaining experience would be for encounters designed around solo play – but you see, I know that I’m an extreme minority and I don’t demand ANet to cater the game around me. Anti-stackers repeatedly demand ANet cater the game around them, despite being a minority.

Ftfy. Buahaha.

maha.7902:

can’t really comment on that. Personally, I have no problem at all forming groups to my liking. Recently, I type “not a speed clear” as part of the LFG comments. I’m generally satisfied with the like-minded people I find this way.

My point was not that it’s hard to find groups. My point was that it is less rewarding to intentionally handicap oneself. The game itself should always strive toward encouraging the most entertaining experience. In my opinion, the most entertaining experience would more closely simulate an actual combat, i.e. not stacking.

Or were you being sarcastic?

And that, good sir, is your opinion.

I personally despise facerolling dungeons so I pug them, solo or low-man them. Therefore, my most entertaining experience would be for encounters designed around solo play – but you see, I know that I’m an extreme minority and I don’t demand ANet to cater the game around me. Anti-stackers repeatedly demand ANet cater the game around them, despite being a minority.

Am I a minority? I really doubt it. Who honestly doesn’t agree that the encounter design should simulate a fantasy combat? Who honestly doesn’t agree that encouraging stacking gets away from this ideal?

In my fantasy I’m one of the 300 stacking up to demolish the Persians.

That’s fun to me. Honestly.