Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

So many raiders seem to get a kind of satisfaction out of the ability to beat content that others cannot. Such a horribly selfish view.

I’m comfortable with this so it’s fine for everyone.’

It really isn’t. Lower level fractals never took anything away from 50s under the old system, they just let people have a go without as much hassle. Same principle here. You will still have your prestige rewards, and be able to enjoy beating raids the proper way.

Oh and demanding that content be brought down to your difficulty level isn’t the selfish thing? Please continue to tell me how I am selfish. I’m starting to think YOU guys are the toxic people.

Do you understand the proposal being made here? Adding difficulty scaling doesn’t take anything away from the existing raid. It would create an additional, separate mode for other people.

This isn’t even a personal crusade for me, I can manage normal raids. But there are a lot of people who simply do not have the time or ability to ‘get good’. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask for the a difficulty setting that could accommodate everyone.

I think a lot of people are missing what the proposal is and how it would benefit all players.

Also, people are forgetting something called “skill progression”. If a system is created that encourages more players to play, then they will get better and contribute to creating a stronger and healthier raiding community overall. This will translate to more effort by the developer to invest in raids, unlike what happened with dungeons.

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

So many raiders seem to get a kind of satisfaction out of the ability to beat content that others cannot. Such a horribly selfish view.

I’m comfortable with this so it’s fine for everyone.’

It really isn’t. Lower level fractals never took anything away from 50s under the old system, they just let people have a go without as much hassle. Same principle here. You will still have your prestige rewards, and be able to enjoy beating raids the proper way.

Oh and demanding that content be brought down to your difficulty level isn’t the selfish thing? Please continue to tell me how I am selfish. I’m starting to think YOU guys are the toxic people.

Do you understand the proposal being made here? Adding difficulty scaling doesn’t take anything away from the existing raid. It would create an additional, separate mode for other people.

This isn’t even a personal crusade for me, I can manage normal raids. But there are a lot of people who simply do not have the time or ability to ‘get good’. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask for the a difficulty setting that could accommodate everyone.

I think a lot of people are missing what the proposal is and how it would benefit all players.

Also, people are forgetting something called “skill progression”. If a system is created that encourages more players to play, then they will get better and contribute to creating a stronger and healthier raiding community overall. This will translate to more effort by the developer to invest in raids, unlike what happened with dungeons.

There’s already a built in progression system. Open World -> Dungeon -> Fractals -> Raids.

It’s not a complex system to notice.

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

This isn’t even a personal crusade for me, I can manage normal raids. But there are a lot of people who simply do not have the time or ability to ‘get good’. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask for the a difficulty setting that could accommodate everyone.

Everyone has the time and ability to “get good”. They as a person just choose not too, for whatever reason.

I’ve had people within my own guild go from fresh outta queensdale level of raiding (eating every seeker) to being one of the most reliable members for the raid.

So sorry, don’t buy this one bit.

A difficulty setting will not solve the personal issue of a player being unwilling to learn.

Can you explain to me what my suggestion does and offers to all players?

What is the purpose of having unranked arena and ranked arena and leagues and tournaments?

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

This isn’t even a personal crusade for me, I can manage normal raids. But there are a lot of people who simply do not have the time or ability to ‘get good’. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask for the a difficulty setting that could accommodate everyone.

Everyone has the time and ability to “get good”. They as a person just choose not too, for whatever reason.

I’ve had people within my own guild go from fresh outta queensdale level of raiding (eating every seeker) to being one of the most reliable members for the raid.

So sorry, don’t buy this one bit.

A difficulty setting will not solve the personal issue of a player being unwilling to learn.

Can you explain to me what my suggestion does and offers to all players?

What is the purpose of having unranked arena and ranked arena and leagues and tournaments?

Unranked, PvP is always on.
Ranked PvP is not

Leagues is a skill measurement relative to the community playing at the time, in it’s current implementation it’s also a measurement of time invested.

Care to tell me why you want to equate two distinctly different gameplay modes that have no bearing on the topic at hand ?

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

There’s nothing wrong with adding a story mode as long as it doesn’t delay the release of the actual raid.

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

I think making an easy form of raids is a complete waste of time to the raid devs (the argument that this would only take half a day is absurdly false, how would they handle achievements?

Achievements would not apply to easy mode. If they wanted to add new ones later, they could, but I don’t see any reason why the existing ones would apply to easy mode where they would be trivial to accomplish.

It’s also an insult to people who actually have and take the time to learn the raids (which aren’t that difficult) to suggest that others should be able to breeze through them and get even a fraction of the rewards for them.

No, it’s not, and to even suggest that it would be is a gross form of entitlement. Having access to Fractal 20 does not in any way diminish the accomplishment of those who beat Fractal 100, having easy mode in a single player game does nothing to diminish the accomplishments of a person who beats it on nightmare mode. Just because you’re able to do something does not mean that you should gate-keep what other players are allowed to do.

They didn’t see a point in raiding in “regular” mode whatsoever again, because they believed they’ve already seen and experienced the content, which besides textures being the same in LFR and Normal/Heroic/Mythic raiding is totally inadequate.

a lot of people seem to blame LFR for people not wanting to run WoW raids as much as they might like. The real problem there is that those people did not want to run “proper” WoW raids in the first place. If they are happier running LFR raids, then THEY ARE HAPPIER. It’s not for you to tell them that they shouldn’t be happy if they aren’t playing how you’d like them to play.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

there should always be options for all types of players of end game content. one thing that should be adhered to though, easy mode difficulty = easy mode rewards.

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

This isn’t even a personal crusade for me, I can manage normal raids. But there are a lot of people who simply do not have the time or ability to ‘get good’. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask for the a difficulty setting that could accommodate everyone.

Everyone has the time and ability to “get good”. They as a person just choose not too, for whatever reason.

I’ve had people within my own guild go from fresh outta queensdale level of raiding (eating every seeker) to being one of the most reliable members for the raid.

So sorry, don’t buy this one bit.

A difficulty setting will not solve the personal issue of a player being unwilling to learn.

Can you explain to me what my suggestion does and offers to all players?

What is the purpose of having unranked arena and ranked arena and leagues and tournaments?

Unranked, PvP is always on.
Ranked PvP is not

Leagues is a skill measurement relative to the community playing at the time, in it’s current implementation it’s also a measurement of time invested.

Care to tell me why you want to equate two distinctly different gameplay modes that have no bearing on the topic at hand ?

And what about my first question?

There is a purpose.

I should have added hot-join in there as well…

Why would the developers even offer these different arena modes in spvp to players?

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Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

if it isnt too energy consuming for anet, then i dont see why not. the hardcore players can have their “precious” difficulty, and the easy moders can have reduced rewards. there really isnt any downside, other then what the potential cost / benefit analysis results display.

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

there should always be options for all types of players of end game content. one thing that should be adhered to though, easy mode difficulty = easy mode rewards.

Of course. Definitely a lower amount of Magnetite and lower drop rates.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

you sir are a scholar and a gentleman.

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Oh and demanding that content be brought down to your difficulty level isn’t the selfish thing? Please continue to tell me how I am selfish. I’m starting to think YOU guys are the toxic people.

I haven’t heard anyone suggesting they bring the existing content down, it will be left exactly as it is. All people want is an easier OPTION, one which you never have to touch if that’s not what appeals to you, so it has nothing to do with you.

Now, if you DO want existing raids to be nerfed into baby-land, then keep shooting down the option of having multiple versions, because that’s the easiest way of ensuring that they will nerf the core raids down to a more casual level.

Everyone has the time and ability to “get good”. They as a person just choose not too, for whatever reason.

And you don’t need to understand or empathize with their reasons, just accept that they are as valid as any reasons you have for playing the game, and they are no less deserving of enjoying the time they spend in the game.

A difficulty setting will not solve the personal issue of a player being unwilling to learn.

Perhaps not, but it might make it moot, allowing that player to enjoy the content.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

there should always be options for all types of players of end game content. one thing that should be adhered to though, easy mode difficulty = easy mode rewards.

Of course. Definitely a lower amount of Magnetite and lower drop rates.

Yeah like 0, just like the development time that should go into it.

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Yeah like 0, just like the development time that should go into it.

You don’t like the idea on principle, I get that, but that is not constructive feedback.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

And you don’t need to understand or empathize with their reasons, just accept that they are as valid as any reasons you have for playing the game, and they are no less deserving of enjoying the time they spend in the game.

A difficulty setting will not solve the personal issue of a player being unwilling to learn.

Perhaps not, but it might make it moot, allowing that player to enjoy the content.

and adding a mode changes their ability to enjoy the current game, with a mode they have no interest in playing how ?

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Yeah like 0, just like the development time that should go into it.

You don’t like the idea on principle, I get that, but that is not constructive feedback.

Sure it was, you were discussing the rewards level. I suggested an amount.

Just because you don’t like my suggestion doesn’t make it any less constructive.

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

This should simply be analogous to dungeons. Easy mode dungeons aren’t done for loot, so I don’t think easy mode raids should be either. It’s a story thing.

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

@texzero

The answer is that raid leaders can choose to have different difficulty settings for their team…. Easier mode, normal mode and extreme mode… All with matching rewards… So a guild leader could run raid introductions for inexperience members to “wean” them into raiding. Once comfortable, and enjoying the content, they could run the “normal” modes with them, and eventually get to the point where guilds are running extreme mode for the ultimate challenge.

This is all very similar to how spvp is setup… Hot-join is a perfect place for inexperienced players to start. Then players can go to unranked… Then ranked… Then do leagues… Then try to make it on tournament teams…

The different arena modes were designed to cater to all different competitive players and interest levels… The devs didn’t just make 1 arena mode did they? No, and that was intentionally designed with the varying skill levels and interest levels in mind.

This is a video game for enjoyment, and what I speak of are options for all players who paid their $50-$100 for the exact same product… Being accommodating is just smart business, and anet will get to that point with raids just like they are reevaluating the grind and time commitments required in parts of the game.

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

(edited by Swagger.1459)

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

and adding a mode changes their ability to enjoy the current game, with a mode they have no interest in playing how ?

Because with an easier difficulty mode, it would remove the factor that makes the current mode unpalatable to them. Think of it like black coffee. Some people can’t enjoy black coffee. Add a little cream and sugar though, and it might taste great to them. An easier difficulty mode would allow more players to enjoy raiding, while players that enjoy “black coffee” will still have that option.

Nobody is taking anything away from you, only opening the opportunity up to others.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Sure it was, you were discussing the rewards level. I suggested an amount.

But an unconstructive amount.

This should simply be analogous to dungeons. Easy mode dungeons aren’t done for loot, so I don’t think easy mode raids should be either. It’s a story thing.

Do you mean Story Mode? Nobody runs story mode more than once. It would not be worth them making a version of the raid that people would only run once. Having a reasonable level of reward gives people a reason to run it multiple times. People suggesting “zero reward” are just people who don’t want the mode to exist in the first place.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Sure it was, you were discussing the rewards level. I suggested an amount.

But an unconstructive amount.

Nice bias you have there.

Should rename the thread to only post here if you want an easy mode to exist and 100% agree with my thoughts.

0 reward is what is deserved if there even is an easy mode. I personally believe there shouldn’t be an easy mode, that doesn’t change the fact that doing an easy mode shoudn’t reward you.

But okay per your suggestion the reward should be 1 copper and a 6 week lockout from doing it again.

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Nobody is taking anything away from you, only opening the opportunity up to others.

Except that they are taking away opportunities from people.

They are removing the ability to form bonds and friendships forged by raiding together and experiencing failure, and victory. They are also removing precious development time.

Additionally you guys have yet to answer how low the bar goes.

When is easier not easy enough, where do you draw the line ?
Do we have to make the content so easy, a blind player can complete it ? How about deaf ? How about missing the use of 1 arm, or 2 ? Where does the problem end ?…..

My entire premise is this, content by it’s very nature needs not to be designed for all but rather for all that want to do it. This is where you two, and others differ from myself. If people want to raid they will raid, they will put in the effort and they will succeed. I’m speaking here from personal experiences within my own guild.

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

Can you explain how options to increase difficulty, as well as decrease difficulty, takes away opportunities?

At what point did inclusive content start removing the ability to form bonds and friendships?

It doesn matter “how low the bar goes”, the topic wasn’t to figure out exactly how difficult or easy you could scale it.

Great, because there are many players who have expressed wanting to do raids, so I’m glad you are in favor for this content being designed for all of them too.

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

(edited by Swagger.1459)

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: Seera.5916

Seera.5916

As long as the easier ones do not have the ability to get legendary armor parts, I’m fine with it. Or at least not until other aspects of the game have it and it would need to be a different skin. So that players can tell who did the hard mode raid and who did the easy mode raid. You want the hard mode raid skin? Do the work and get a group together or farm the heck out of gold and buy raid runs.

And as long as if there is a shortage of manpower and time, the hard mode version gets priority with the easy mode version coming in later when there is more time.

So given the low number of employees on the raid team, I would not want easy mode worked on at any length until all of the HoT related raid wings have been released.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Should rename the thread to only post here if you want an easy mode to exist and 100% agree with my thoughts.

That might help.

0 reward is what is deserved if there even is an easy mode.

Why? By all accounts most content in the game is considered to be easier than raids, and yet most content in the game offers rewards. Doing “easy mode” Fractals still offers all sorts of fancy rewards.

Why should an easy mode of raiding not offer rewards, when it will still be more challenging than a lot of the content in the game? We agree that it should not be as rewarding as standard raids, because it’s not as challenging, but it should still reward people for spending what will likely be an hour or so attempting content that will still be reasonably challenging by the average standards of the game. You just don’t want it to have any rewards because you don’t want it to exist in the first place, and it seems to offend you that anyone else would.

But okay per your suggestion the reward should be 1 copper and a 6 week lockout from doing it again.

And you genuinely feel that this would benefit the game? If so, it’s a kitten ing reflection of your game development sense.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

Suggestion- Raid Difficulty Settings [Merged]

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Can you explain how options to increase difficulty, as well as decrease difficulty, takes away opportunities?

At what point did inclusive content start removing the ability to form bonds and friendships?

It doesn matter “how low the bar goes”, the topic wasn’t to figure out exactly how difficult or easy you could scale it.

Great, because there are many players who have expressed wanting to do raids, so I’m glad you are in favor for this content being designed for all of them too.

The content is already designed, go play it.

Now we don’t have to worry about shifting bars right ?

Good, now then there’s plenty of guilds out there raiding try talking to them and socializing even just slightly and you’ll see raids aren’t the exclusive black hole you’re making them out to be.

By adding shifting bars with “difficulty scales” what you are doing is alienating players by giving them a label, the very same label will be used to exclude them. I thought that was pretty obvious.

How well do you think people are going to respond to, guys it wasn’t this hard last time i did it in <insert slider mode> ?

Right now we are the right spot with the number of difficulties. Anything done to change that should be optional and achievement based which is already being done. Which you would know if either of you raided, but instead you’re both fixated on rewards.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Except that they are taking away opportunities from people.

They are removing the ability to form bonds and friendships forged by raiding together and experiencing failure, and victory. They are also removing precious development time.

No, they aren’t. People who want those experiences can still have those experiences. The easier modes are for the people that want no part of those experiences in the first place, and will otherwise have NO experiences involving the raids (aside from maybe trying and failing a few times before giving up forever).

And no, it would not remove “precious development time,” because the time expense is negligible. You could as easily claim that bathroom breaks waste too much development time, so ANet should outlaw those as well.

If we were talking about them devoting several of their best devs exclusively to building an experience that only a tiny fraction of the population would ever experience, then sure, that would be a huge waste of resources that could better be spent elsewhere, but we’re not. We’re talking about a couple of devs spending a few hours to open up raiding to a much larger audience.

Additionally you guys have yet to answer how low the bar goes.

That’s up to ANet, but in my opinion, somewhere around Fractals. It would be content where any reasonably experienced party could go in, wipe a few times on each boss, and then get through it well enough. Once they have it down, they should be able to perform about as well as an experienced raiding group does.

The balance point is that a full party of people in full exotics and off-meta builds, but that are comfortable with how their character plays, should be just as likely of clearing easy mode as a group of players using meta-builds and in full ascended would of completing hard mode.

Do we have to make the content so easy, a blind player can complete it ? How about deaf ? How about missing the use of 1 arm, or 2 ? Where does the problem end ?…..

That would be considerate of those with disabilities, but I’m not sure it’s a realistic goal.

My entire premise is this, content by it’s very nature needs not to be designed for all but rather for all that want to do it.

Yes, and there are clearly people who want to do the raids in principle, but in practice find them too frustratingly hard. So the content they want to do is an easier flavor of those raids, so by your standard, they want to do something, so content should be designed for them.

If you instead use the exclusionary position that "so long as some peopel like this content, nobody else needs to be considered, then it starts to make no sense. I mean, should they create content exclusively for some guy named Phil, and so long as Phil likes it, it’s worth doing? The goal should be to make as many people happy as possible. Raiders currently have the raids that they want, and nobody is suggesting anything be taken away from them. All that is on the table is a way to allow MORE people to enjoy some flavor of raiding, with minimal resources spent doing so.

If people want to raid they will raid, they will put in the effort and they will succeed. I’m speaking here from personal experiences within my own guild.

Yes, and if people like some things about raids, but greatly dislike others, then they won’t raid, and I’m speaking here from personal experiences within my own guild. But if you can provide an experience that includes elements of raiding that most people would enjoy, like the story, the setting, the loot, and the mechanics-based combat, but you reduce the elements that many people don’t like, such as the razor-thin margin of error, then more people would participate.

and again, that doesn’t have to be the mode for you, you can keep playing the hard mode, and receiving significantly better rewards for doing so, but this would at least give players options.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Should rename the thread to only post here if you want an easy mode to exist and 100% agree with my thoughts.

That might help.

0 reward is what is deserved if there even is an easy mode.

Why? By all accounts most content in the game is considered to be easier than raids, and yet most content in the game offers rewards. Doing “easy mode” Fractals still offers all sorts of fancy rewards.

Why should an easy mode of raiding not offer rewards, when it will still be more challenging than a lot of the content in the game? We agree that it should not be as rewarding as standard raids, because it’s not as challenging, but it should still reward people for spending what will likely be an hour or so attempting content that will still be reasonably challenging by the average standards of the game. You just don’t want it to have any rewards because you don’t want it to exist in the first place, and it seems to offend you that anyone else would.

But okay per your suggestion the reward should be 1 copper and a 6 week lockout from doing it again.

And you genuinely feel that this would benefit the game? If so, it’s a kitten ing reflection of your game development sense.

Do i think it would benefit the game, nope. No more so than would be adding an easy mode to the game. But if they were to waste time may as well go full on with it.

Besides, why do you even care about being rewarded for an easy mode to begin with ?

Shouldn’t said easy mode be about “learning” or is the core of the issue here your entitlement when it comes to getting rewarded.

Said this numerous times now.

They should design content people want to play, and set the bar where they see it is appropriate for the encounter, balancing around anything else is silly. Moving the bar lower because a few people feel they can’t do it isn’t an excuse to do so. It should be on the players to seek gradual improvement or understand that at the current time they wont be rewarded for doing the content.

But it’s okay, your other issue here is instead of seeking improvement through failure, (hint you get magnitite shards even when failing, which can be used to get more gear) you want to feel good now. Sorry, that’s not how raids are designed, nor should they be designed around the feel good now concept, if you want that the open world exist where-in you can feel like a god as you and hundreds more slay that dragon!

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

As long as the easier ones do not have the ability to get legendary armor parts, I’m fine with it.

Why should they not, beyond “because I want other people to not have Legendary armor?” The easier mode should offer a considerably slower path towards the armor, obviously, but there’s no good reason why it should not allow ANY path towards them.

So that players can tell who did the hard mode raid and who did the easy mode raid.

Who in their right mind cares about that?

Seriously. Name one person so immensely shallow that they would actually care whether another player had completed the hard mode raid or not.

Fine, if “hard mode” people need some form of visual signifier then they can get a nametag pip like league PvP, but it should not come in the form of armor.

Which you would know if either of you raided, but instead you’re both fixated on rewards.

You’re the one fixated on rewards, insisting that if they do ever spend the time to make an easier mode, then all worthwhile rewards should be removed from it, making it effectively worthless.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Who in their right mind cares about that?

Seriously. Name one person so immensely shallow that they would actually care whether another player had completed the hard mode raid or not.

You do apparently

Per your very own reddit post

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4a0gd0/guild_chat_livestream_notes_storytelling_in_raid/d0wif65

Or do i have to go get that quote too, just to prove how incredibly disingenuous you’re being ?

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

You do apparently

Per your very own reddit post

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4a0gd0/guild_chat_livestream_notes_storytelling_in_raid/d0wif65

Or do i have to go get that quote too, just to prove how incredibly disingenuous you’re being ?

You might have to, I’m honestly not sure what point you’re trying to make. I couldn’t care less whether another player has completed the raid or not. All I care about is what I’m capable (or incapable) of doing, and by extension, that other people who want to do something have the ability to do it.

Basically I couldn’t care less whether you have or have not completed the raid, and if you want to show off that you have, I would find that laughable. I do care that if you can’t complete the raid, but would like to, that reasonable options be available for you to do so.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

You do apparently

Per your very own reddit post

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4a0gd0/guild_chat_livestream_notes_storytelling_in_raid/d0wif65

Or do i have to go get that quote too, just to prove how incredibly disingenuous you’re being ?

You might have to, I’m honestly not sure what point you’re trying to make. I couldn’t care less whether another player has completed the raid or not. All I care about is what I’m capable (or incapable) of doing, and by extension, that other people who want to do something have the ability to do it.

Basically I couldn’t care less whether you have or have not completed the raid, and if you want to show off that you have, I would find that laughable. I do care that if you can’t complete the raid, but would like to, that reasonable options be available for you to do so.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/49p01e/why_arent_people_interested_in_raids/d0tpj2o?context=3

What’s that, you only care about raids if you can complete them all in 1 shot in under an hour ?

Only want to do them for the loot….

Oh and the one i’ve highlighted already, afraid to fail.

Classic. You’re just here for the loot without the effort. For you it’s not about an easy mode.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Do i think it would benefit the game, nope. No more so than would be adding an easy mode to the game. But if they were to waste time may as well go full on with it.

But it wouldn’t be a waste of time. Objectively. I mean, it might not be time spent that you would care about, but by that measure anything involving WvW or PvP, or raids in their current form would be a “waste of time.” Objectively though, it would not be a waste of time, because adding it would give a lot of players added happiness, for very minimal effort. It would objectively improve the game, and for very little cost, so it’s impossible for it to be a waste of time. It’s just something that you would prefer they not do.

Besides, why do you even care about being rewarded for an easy mode to begin with ?

Well, there are two sides to that, the personal side and the objective side. The personal side is obviously because I would like to get the Raid armor at some point, and I’m not likely to get it via the current raids, because the difficulty level is not something that interests me. The only way I could get them from the current raids is if there is sufficient power creep to make the current ones already “easy mode,” and that isn’t likely any time soon.

On the objective level, it’s because it would benefit the game more if these were valid repeatable content, something that players would do on a regular basis. If they are somethign that players would only ever do once, then that might indeed be time that could be better spent, but for solid repeatable content, it would be well worth it.

No players would repeat a raid that would take about an hour, with a reasonable level of difficulty, but that offers no reward. People don’t even run TAp3, and it offers some quite decent rewards. For the easy mode to be worth doing regularly, it would need to offer a worthwhile reward for the time and effort invested. It would be less than the hard mode raid, so people who can do the hard mode would have no reason to feel scared, but it would be enough to justify lower skilled players hitting the Forsaken Thicket once a week.

Shouldn’t said easy mode be about “learning” or is the core of the issue here your entitlement when it comes to getting rewarded.

It would function as a learning tool, but if it offered no reward then it would be a learning tool that most people would not consider worthwhile. Too much effort just for the promise of maybe eventually paying out. But if they can go in, do their thing, get a decent reward, AND get slightly more comfortable with the mechanics, then that’s win-win-win.

They should design content people want to play, and set the bar where they see it is appropriate for the encounter, balancing around anything else is silly. Moving the bar lower because a few people feel they can’t do it isn’t an excuse to do so.

You do understand that there are more players outside the raids than in them, right? This wouldn’t be them lowering the bar for a “few” players, this would be them opening the content up to most of the players.

But it’s okay, your other issue here is instead of seeking improvement through failure, (hint you get magnitite shards even when failing, which can be used to get more gear) you want to feel good now.

Yes. Some people enjoy the situation you describe, failing over and over and over, but getting better each time, and eventually succeeding. That’s fine, if you enjoy that, knock yourself out, as many times as it takes to make you happy. I’ll wait. But not everyone is like that. Not everyone can enjoy that experience, not everyone feels that the catharsis of eventual victory is strong enough to make up for the annoyance of multiple failures. And that’s OK.

Different people are different, and different gameplay experiences benefit each of them. What makes you happy about raiding is not what would make everyone happy about raiding. It’s not that players like myself are just not giving your version a proper chance, and that if we did we would appreciate it as much as you do, it’s that different people are different, and we genuinely do not enjoy the same type of experiences that you do. For us, the lows are lower, and the highs are lower too, so it’s never worth it. NEVER.

So if your argument is “then people who feel that way don’t deserve to enjoy raiding,” then that’s fine, kind of sad, but that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. If, on the other hand, you genuinely think that your way would make people happier in the end, then I’m sorry, you need to get over that misunderstanding.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

What’s that, you only care about raids if you can complete them all in 1 shot in under an hour ?

Yeah, thereabouts. Or I wouldn’t particularly mind if I could just tackle one boss per night and each took about a half hour or so. I just don’t enjoy the experience of repeatedly slamming against the same boss over and over for two hours and not clearing it.

Only want to do them for the loot….

No, not only. The loot is certainly a part of it, I would not repeat a raid if not for the loot, but there are other elements I like about them. I want to experience the story and gameplay for myself, I like the mechanics of the fights, I just don’t like the punishment for failing the mechanics, or how punishing other players’ failures can be to me. I prefer situations where you CAN do things perfectly, but don’t HAVE to do things perfectly.

Oh and the one i’ve highlighted already, afraid to fail.

Yes, I really don’t like failure at all. That’s certainly a fact.

Classic. You’re just here for the loot without the effort. For you it’s not about an easy mode.

I think that’s a distortion of my position, but yes, “success with less effort” is pretty much the textbook definition of an “easy mode.” You really nailed that much. Now try and figure out a reason why we shouldn’t have that.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

Now try and figure out a reason why we shouldn’t have that.

Here’s one reason: The developers have limited time and resources. Doing one thing always takes away from another. I have no issues with easy modes or story modes as long as the raid team is not tasked with building it.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Here’s one reason: The developers have limited time and resources.

Yeah, we’ve covered this one. The time and resources it would take to implement something like this would be negligible, not remotely enough to counterbalance the benefits it would bring.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Miellyn.6847

Miellyn.6847

Additionally you guys have yet to answer how low the bar goes.

That’s up to ANet, but in my opinion, somewhere around Fractals. It would be content where any reasonably experienced party could go in, wipe a few times on each boss, and then get through it well enough. Once they have it down, they should be able to perform about as well as an experienced raiding group does.

The balance point is that a full party of people in full exotics and off-meta builds, but that are comfortable with how their character plays, should be just as likely of clearing easy mode as a group of players using meta-builds and in full ascended would of completing hard mode.

Thats kinda funny, you let Anet set the lowest bar and they already said there are no other difficulties planned.

Anet already decided what they want, so your complain for more difficulties is just unnecessary.

Meena Wolfsgeist | Ranger
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

The time and resources it would take to implement something like this would be negligible, not remotely enough to counterbalance the benefits it would bring.

Can you site an actual source for this other than your speculation? I promise you that it’s harder than whatever you imagine it to be in your head.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Thats kinda funny, you let Anet set the lowest bar and they already said there are no other difficulties planned.

Fair point (although I did go on to say more than just the first four words you seem to be responding to).

Ok, let me rephrase. ANet will set the bar where they like, and have a better idea of where to set it with the goal of bringing in more players. My advocacy is that they SHOULD make an attempt to set the bar at a level that is more accessible, and if they choose to do so, then that would mean lowering it at least a bit. If they only lower it a tiny bit, then none of the players currently alienated by the difficulty level would have their feelings changed, so there would be no point. If they lowered it way too much, then it would become completely trivial for everyone and people would just old-school Shatterer it.

The final state they reach might be a little more difficult than I’d be truly comfortable with, or might be easier than I would personally need to get by it, but so long as they make an earnest effort I am fairly confident they could make something that would satisfy me in this matter.

I’m expressing faith that if they set out with the goal of producing a version that provides a decent challenge for the average player, without being too punishingly difficult, that they could achieve that standard. The change I am advocating for is that they make that attempt.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Here’s one reason: The developers have limited time and resources.

Yeah, we’ve covered this one. The time and resources it would take to implement something like this would be negligible, not remotely enough to counterbalance the benefits it would bring.

Every time you say that, it doesn’t bring it any closer to be the truth. In fact it’s so far away that is not even funny anymore.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Can you site an actual source for this other than your speculation? I promise you that it’s harder than whatever you imagine it to be in your head.

Can you cite a source for that that?

Look, if someone from ANet with knowledge of these systems comes in and says that this would take a lot of work, then fair enough, I’d believe them, but I remain unconvinced when a bunch of people who would not want this to happen even if it were already finished, come in and say it would take way too much work. I just don’t see any reason why it would.

I explained in this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Easy-Mode-Raiding

. . . why I believe it would take minimal effort to implement, it’s basically off-the-shelf technology and a few numbers tweaks, which is far less work than they put into nuShatterer, and less work than they’ve put into patch-day hot-fixes. Again, if someone from ANet can tell me otherwise then fair enough, but I’m just not buying it from any of you guys.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

. . . why I believe it would take minimal effort to implement, it’s basically off-the-shelf technology and a few numbers tweaks, which is far less work than they put into nuShatterer, and less work than they’ve put into patch-day hot-fixes. Again, if someone from ANet can tell me otherwise then fair enough, but I’m just not buying it from any of you guys.

When you understand it’s not a numbers tweak maybe you can move forward and accept the reality.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

When you understand it’s not a numbers tweak maybe you can move forward and accept the reality.

What I’m suggesting would be. If you have a counter to that then please present it, but “nuh uh” is not a sufficient response to gain my attention.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

When you understand it’s not a numbers tweak maybe you can move forward and accept the reality.

What I’m suggesting would be. If you have a counter to that then please present it, but “nuh uh” is not a sufficient response to gain my attention.

I already gave you more than enough counters, you failed to counter them

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

Can you cite a source for that that?

You do realize the burden of proof is on you not me, right? Here’s my source for this.(Source)

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

I already gave you more than enough counters, you failed to counter them

So “nuh uh” it is then, fair enough.

You do realize the burden of proof is on you not me, right?

You’re making an unreasonable claim, the burden of proof is on you to support it.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

You’re making an unreasonable claim, the burden of proof is on you to support it.

My “unreasonable claim” being that I hold the position that I simply don’t know exactly how much time or resource it would take for ArenaNet to fully support and maintain an “easy mode” version of the raid, except that I believe it is not negligible. (Like you do)

My skepticism merely comes from my experience with beta testing different difficulty modes in World of Warcraft for a few years. Blizzard developers stated that even one extra difficulty mode doubles the amount of testing needed to be done to verify things are working properly. And trust me, you need to test things… I’ve seen hard mode skills activate in normal mode, or normal mode skills not firing properly and all sorts of nonsense.

These things take time and testing to get right, even if it’s meant to be easy it still has to work; it can’t be shoddy and buggy. Just because the idea of it is easy to understand, you need to realize that ideas are cheap and easy. Actually implementing something will always take effort.

For the record, I’m not against adding an easy mode. (You can check my previous posts) I just don’t support the idea if it delays the releases of the actual raid.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

I already gave you more than enough counters, you failed to counter them

So “nuh uh” it is then, fair enough.

You do realize the burden of proof is on you not me, right?

You’re making an unreasonable claim, the burden of proof is on you to support it.

I guess reading comprehension isn’t so strong… I’ll help you it’s on this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Easy-Mode-Raiding

You are saying they should make the mechanics “less punishing”, not even knowing what a 1-hit KO attack is. Sorry can’t take that seriously. You just want another Colossus Rumblus where players just ignore his main mechanic and just DPS him down. So much fun.

And then you call it “easy to implement”. What about Gorseval for example? Let’s Reduce Gorseval’s world erosion damage so there is no need to use the Updrafts? I mean if you can tank his damage in any form there is no point in having the mechanics in the first place. Why bother with moving him, bringing down walls and using updrafts if you can just tank it. And yes even if it deals 99% of your health in damage but doesn’t kill you, players WILL tank him. There is no question here.

Let’s make it so you don’t get debuffed by the Orbs either, it’s too harsh to deal zero damage. Or make them not expand maybe? Or make them instantly die so there is no point in them existing?

And the funniest part? You are saying players should LEARN the mechanics from this “easy mode”. What a joke. They won’t learn the mechanics, they will just learn how to avoid them completely and when they do the “normal” Raid they will be detrimental to the team and cause extra failures.

I’ve given plenty of counters, you failed to counter any of them. Enjoy.

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

This should simply be analogous to dungeons. Easy mode dungeons aren’t done for loot, so I don’t think easy mode raids should be either. It’s a story thing.

Do you mean Story Mode? Nobody runs story mode more than once. It would not be worth them making a version of the raid that people would only run once. Having a reasonable level of reward gives people a reason to run it multiple times. People suggesting “zero reward” are just people who don’t want the mode to exist in the first place.

What a load of nonsense. I ran story in GW1 loads of times. I ran story dungeons multiple times for the story. I even did personal story multiple times.

Any good story addition is good, rewards or not.

The problem is that raids aren’t very story oriented. Yes there is story but its in achievements, and when talking to NPCs. But in itself it doesn’t lend itself as well as other story parts.

Any lessened version of the same raid interferes with discovering the raid on it’s own when mechanics are the same. It makes it easier and easymode becomes a standard training level. While it can be ignored it does take away from the raids progression style. It would be like having hardmode and easy mode. While this doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing it is something totally different than just no easy mode raid to train on.

Getting to see the story is a reward in itself btw.

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

My “unreasonable claim” being that I hold the position that I simply don’t know exactly how much time or resource it would take for ArenaNet to fully support and maintain an “easy mode” version of the raid, except that I believe it is not negligible. (Like you do)

Yes. Given the relative simplicity of what’s been requested, compared to other content already in the game, it is unreasonable to insist that it would take a significant amount of time or effort to produce.

Blizzard developers stated that even one extra difficulty mode doubles the amount of testing needed to be done to verify things are working properly.

First, that’s testing time, not development time, and like with the wing 2 beta they can use players to do that. Second, since the “hard mode” is already finely tuned, and the “easy mode” would have negligible impact even if it turned out to be undertuned, they don’t need to get too fussy about getting it right on the first try. Since it’d just be number tweaks anyways, they could course correct in a simple hotfix over the first few days, no problems.

Keep in mind, the skills would all be the same skills, just with some of the numbers adjusted down. You’d only really need to run through it once or twice to see if they were all working as intended.

I could totally understand your points if this were a significant overhaul, with some skilled removed entirely and other skills added to replace them with different effects, but this really would be “copy→paste, subtract 30% from the damage on this ability, subtract 10% from the damage on that, etc.”

This seems like something they could assign to those outside the raiding team if it would take more than a few hours, but I really don’t see how it could (aside of course from a testing period, which would be outside that team).

You are saying they should make the mechanics “less punishing”, not even knowing what a 1-hit KO attack is. Sorry can’t take that seriously. You just want another Colossus Rumblus where players just ignore his main mechanic and just DPS him down. So much fun.

If people want to do that, then it might be possible, I can’t promise that they could tune it so that this would be impossible. But that’s up to them. It’s like golem MK II, you can choose to melee him and dodge all his attacks, or you can choose to stand in the corner and range him, whichever YOU prefer.

Ideally it would not be so easy to trivialize that you could completely ignore the mechanics, but rather just easy enough that some of the party would avoid them and be able to rez the others and get back into the game rather than “well, that’s a wipe” if a few people mess it up. I could go through each specific encounter and explain how I’d tweak them, but you get the idea, and all it would take is a reduction of the penalties involved, the difference between hitting a person with a live blade, and hitting them with an unsharpened one. You feel it either way, you just don’t lose any limbs.

And then you call it “easy to implement”. What about Gorseval for example? Let’s Reduce Gorseval’s world erosion damage so there is no need to use the Updrafts?

That’s not quite how I would do it. There might be better ways, but my recommendation would be to make it so that it auto-downs any player hit by it, un-defendable, and there would be enough follow-up damage going around that players would be unlikely to self-rez easily. So yes, at least some party members would need to glide to keep the party moving. I never said wipes would be impossible, just far less likely.

The walls I might reduce in HP so that they are easier to break down, but basically players would have every reason to TRY and go through the same motions as a proper party, it would just be easier to accomplish. If everyone gets caught, then yeah. that’d be a wipe, but so long as they try to get out, they shouldn’t have too much trouble at it. If only some manage to get out, they would have to try and rez the rest, in between trying to keep the DPS up. Again, easier to manage than in the hard mode, but same basic idea.

Might they need a quick refresher if they jumped right into the hard mode without watching any tutorials? Sure, but having played through easy mode they would have a better feel for his tells, and the timing of various things, so again, they would not automatically be “hard mode ready,” but would at least be better than a total newb, or even many players that have spent a dozen attempts without getting very far.

Let’s make it so you don’t get debuffed by the Orbs either, it’s too harsh to deal zero damage. Or make them not expand maybe? Or make them instantly die so there is no point in them existing?

It might be possible to leave the orbs alone, with the reduction in the other elements players could just learn to deal with them. It might be necessary to tweak them a bit though, my suggestion being to just make them a bit lower HP so that lower DPS characters could spend less time clearing them than a hard mode would need, but the same basic task would be required.

They won’t learn the mechanics, they will just learn how to avoid them completely and when they do the “normal” Raid they will be detrimental to the team and cause extra failures.

Not if the other members of the raid have any idea what they’re doing. They should know the distinctions between easy and hard raid strategies, and should be able to say “now remember, this works in easy mode, but it never works here, so do this instead.” If the player is still hopeless, they’re still hopeless, but they’d be even more hopeless if they’d never done easy mode, and would take longer to catch up.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”