Guild Wars 2

Difficulty scaling allows players to decrease or increase the challenge level. This works out well for players of all skill levels. Rewards can be scaled appropriately to match.

Let’s look at some possible ways to implement this…

*Enemy scaling… http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Notoriety

*Player stat scaling and descaling. Pretty self explanatory.

*Boon buff and Boon debuff scaling. This could either be permanent boons placed on players or prevented, or have boon potency and timers increased or decreased.

I believe the devs want to have a good name associated with raiding among players, so it’s time to make some reasonable decisions that show support for players of all skill levels.

Update- I’d like to start with a quote from guild chat…

“Salvation Pass difficulty will be on par with Spirit Vale. The reason for this is that while there are lots of people who have defeated Sabetha and did fancy stuff like No Updraft Gorseval, there are tons more people who only killed Vale Guardian and stuck on Gorseval. We need to give people some new stuff they can bang their head on. If you killed VG you should be able to kill Slothasor.”

So here is where not having difficulty setting limits both casual and experienced players… Casual players will “get stuck” and eventually lose interest, while experienced players will not find increased challenge and eventually lose interest… Not having difficulty settings limits the devs ability to provide challenge levels that improve the experience for different groups of players.

Edit 2- I’m not going to provide a link to another active game, but I will say that I read on massively op that another game will be getting difficulty settings and mechanics for their new raid. This is a very nice feature being offered to their players.

Why can’t we have difficulty tiers with varying rewards?

Take Blade and soul dungeons for example: A single dungeon map has 3 variants: 24-man, 6-man and 4-man dungeon

24 mans are generally a zerg fest where the boss hp is scaled up but usually gets downed within time frame everyone gets a little bit of loot even if you dont know the mechanics of the boss

6 mans are normal dungeons where you learn the boss mechanics else you get wiped but usually its still easy enough that a beginner group can clear. (Boss attacks get indicators and dodge timings are displayed)

4 mans are for the hardcore players: no indictors of boss attacks (you have to watch the animations and know the AOE size by heart) and if someone doesn’t know how to play it usually results in a wipe

Now I’m not suggesting we should scale the player numbers like that but rather take it it’s principle of having one map of different difficulties. (Now that I think about it similar to fractal dungeons)
It would results in a mode that everyone can enjoy.
Newer players can easily clear a less difficult (eg. boss dmg/hp scaled down, longer enrage timer) mode while having less reward but the same boss mechanics
While more expierenced and hardcore player get the challenge they want.

Thoughts?

EDITS: Sorry for poor englando

I have to imagine anet is considering an easy mode for raids. The art, lore, mechanics and what not all look amazing, but with a new baby I just don’t have time to get in there and see it. I know a lot of people feel the same way. I’d be perfectly happy going in for nothing but a dungeon reward, like 25 silver, just so I could see this stuff.

If I didn’t have vomit and poop all over me, I’d definitely be in there raiding, but it’s not practical for me to spend 9 hours with a guild learning the mechanics.

All but the highest/most exclusive rewards should be available for everyone in some way. Specially the story. So yes, I think an “easy” less deep and much less rewarding mode is needed for the raids.

Easy-Mode for Raids and Hard-Mode for Dungeons = Lots of fun and playtime for everyone…except the WvW’ers, the PvP’ers, the “I don’t run dungeons beacuse ppl might be mean. No, I never tried it but heard of it” sort of PvE’ers and some others, but you get the idea.

Anet don’t seem to have plan about that and they problably won’t work on it (if they ever work on it) for at least another 4 months (until the realease of the next wing). After that? Maybe, but I have my doudt. I would really really like that. And not at all for me tbh. I’m ok with the difficulty of the current raid. But it would help a lot of people and it would be the best place to introduce new players of my guild into raid. A lot of them want to do raid, but it can be hard for me and other raid veteran to take time to help them every week. A easy mode would be well easier to pug. We could just bring them once in the easy mode raid, show them the mechanics, then let them practice with pugs before bringing them in the real thing.

From the AMA: No plans for 5 man version of the raid or easier mode of the raid. We are working on solutions for finding raid groups such as adding raids to the LFG tool.

The problem with adding multiple modes is that it’ll cost more, both to implement it and to maintain it. Coming from the perspective of a raiding guild from other MMOs, without raiding, people simply didn’t know what to do back at launch, so they quit within the first month. With only a few devs working on raids, they’re goal was likely to re-attract those players at a low cost, and it did work, but I doubt it’ll stick with legendary armor being the goal, rather than vertical progression.

One day they might add an easy mode or simply nerf it, but for now, those resources are likely much better spent somewhere else.

There’s 0 need for an easy mode.

Go in there, take the time and learn the fight. They aren’t that skill intensive, so much so an exercise in pattern recognition and positioning.

I’d rather see Anet devote resources to new features and maps then to making an easy mode for raids. I understand OP’s main points, but I don’t think the effort to implement them would be worth the reward of having them.

Healix.5819:

From the AMA: No plans for 5 man version of the raid or easier mode of the raid. We are working on solutions for finding raid groups such as adding raids to the LFG tool.

The problem with adding multiple modes is that it’ll cost more, both to implement it and to maintain it. Coming from the perspective of a raiding guild from other MMOs, without raiding, people simply didn’t know what to do back at launch, so they quit within the first month. With only a few devs working on raids, they’re goal was likely to re-attract those players at a low cost, and it did work, but I doubt it’ll stick with legendary armor being the goal, rather than vertical progression.

One day they might add an easy mode or simply nerf it, but for now, those resources are likely much better spent somewhere else.

I don’t see how tweaking a few numbers and adding a few more visual indicators for the boss attacks would consume such an immense amount of resources. Could you link the source for your last argument please?

TexZero.7910:

There’s 0 need for an easy mode.

Go in there, take the time and learn the fight. They aren’t that skill intensive, so much so an exercise in pattern recognition and positioning.

You see for many casual players time is usually the critical factor. People tend to not want to spend the little amount of time they have between work and family learning patterns and timings.

Ceesa.1350:

I’d rather see Anet devote resources to new features and maps then to making an easy mode for raids. I understand OP’s main points, but I don’t think the effort to implement them would be worth the reward of having them.

How is retaining a bigger player base not rewarding?
Investing resources now for a bigger player base gets you more resources and even more content in the long run.

Fluffball.8307:

TexZero.7910:

There’s 0 need for an easy mode.

Go in there, take the time and learn the fight. They aren’t that skill intensive, so much so an exercise in pattern recognition and positioning.

Fluffball.8307:

but with a new baby I just don’t have time to get in there and see it. I know a lot of people feel the same way

I’m not going to whine about what anet does either way, but at least address the correct argument if you’re going to argue.

Congrats on the new kid, but that should be more important than any raid.

I know it probably sucks not having time to enjoy stuff, but not everything is for everyone. That doesn’t change that the raids, don’t need an easy mode. They are already super lenient and just require the bear minimum investment of going in and learning the patterns.

If you can commit 20-30 minutes a day, you can raid if you get a group of similar people. You wont full clear the raid in that timeframe, but you will all learn and grow and slowly make progress. This will allow you to do the raid in bitesized pieces that are more suited for your current situation.

Healix.5819:

From the AMA: No plans for 5 man version of the raid or easier mode of the raid. We are working on solutions for finding raid groups such as adding raids to the LFG tool.

The problem with adding multiple modes is that it’ll cost more, both to implement it and to maintain it. Coming from the perspective of a raiding guild from other MMOs, without raiding, people simply didn’t know what to do back at launch, so they quit within the first month. With only a few devs working on raids, they’re goal was likely to re-attract those players at a low cost, and it did work, but I doubt it’ll stick with legendary armor being the goal, rather than vertical progression.

One day they might add an easy mode or simply nerf it, but for now, those resources are likely much better spent somewhere else.

The above quoted post is a good representation of the reality of the situation. That said, as I understand it there is no intention to have an easy mode or a nerfed version down the road either. The maintenance costs alone associated with another mode are prohibitively high for the raid team’s size.

For many fights, adding an easier mode would probably be as simple as removing the enrage timer and replacing it with the tried and true “gold, silver, bronze” reward system.

For example – kill VG in 8 minutes, get gold (which rewards as it does now); kill in 10 minutes, get silver (can buy minis and ascended chests from vendor but not unique gear); kill in more than 10 minutes, get bronze (no purchases from vendor, but do get a champ bag and ability to move to next boss).

I dont expect to see anything happen anytime soon, but it would be a nice to do for the larger GW2 community.

Rising Dusk.2408:

The above quoted post is a good representation of the reality of the situation. That said, as I understand it there is no intention to have an easy mode or a nerfed version down the road either. The maintenance costs alone associated with another mode are prohibitively high for the raid team’s size.

Yes, I was merely suggesting something which seemed very simple from my personal perspective.

Bringing up status quo and structural restriction on anet side is a problem for anet to solve. If anet decided it will continue to focus on Raid content which sadly excludes many casual players those people will also simply move on. This is also a reality of the situation

Hopefully the FoTM team can release boss encounters that are just as challenging as the raid bosses.

EcoRI.9273:

Hopefully the FoTM team can release boss encounters that are just as challenging as the raid bosses.

I know the Fractals team has been racking the brains of the Raids team and want to do exactly this for the highest level Fractals. How it’ll turn up is anyone’s guess, and when it’ll be playable is even less knowable at this stage.

RyanCid.9270:

Bringing up status quo and structural restriction on anet side is a problem for anet to solve. If anet decided it will continue to focus on Raid content which sadly excludes many casual players those people will also simply move on. This is also a reality of the situation

ANet is devoting more than 98% of its development effort on content and features outside of raids. If players move on to other games knowing that, then that’s their prerogative. ANet knows who their largest audience is, and will be working to support them in the coming months.

EcoRI.9273:

Hopefully the FoTM team can release boss encounters

I’m going to stop you there. No more needs to be said than that at this point. Baby steps.

About easy mode raid.

1) The facts is not everybody can complete the raid. Some are not skilled enough, some doesn’t have the time and some doesn’t have the organization. Allowing more people to be able to take part into your content is a good things on itself. Yes, improving the LFG would help a lot by making it more easy to pug, but it won’t fix everything. I’m not saying that easy mode is the only or best solution, but so far I didn’t saw any other solution that would make as much impact on the number of people able to complete the content as an easy mode.

2) The difficulty of doing an easy mode is not that high. The design of the raid themselves make that relatively easy. For exemple, an easy mode for VG could be that instead of 4 people in the green circle, it would be only 2 and to remove the timer. For Gorseval it could simply to remove the timer and change the amount of time before he does each of his World erode around you attack. For sabetha, they could simply remove the timer and change the timer on canon from 30sec to 1min. I’m not saying that it would take only 1 min to create an easy mode. But it would take a fraction of the time needed to create a new raid.

I believe that the change a skill in a gaming community vary by a large margin between each individual and that a range of difficulty is what best serve the community. Every game have different set of difficulty so that more people have a better enjoyment of the game. Hell even Dark Souls, a game praised for its difficulty have that (but they include those different difficulty into the mechanics that you choose to use rather than a menu).

Rising Dusk.2408:

ANet is devoting more than 98% of its development effort on content and features outside of raids. If players move on to other games knowing that, then that’s their prerogative. ANet knows who their largest audience is, and will be working to support them in the coming months.

I did not come here to argue how ANet is supposed to distribute their resources.
Sorry for straying off the topic.

I stay by my arguments. I don’t see how a slightly longer enrage timer or what Blaeys.3102 mentioned requires any large amount of resources but I’m also not a game developer.

It was a simple Idea and I will leave it at that.

RyanCid.9270:

Rising Dusk.2408:

ANet is devoting more than 98% of its development effort on content and features outside of raids. If players move on to other games knowing that, then that’s their prerogative. ANet knows who their largest audience is, and will be working to support them in the coming months.

I did not come here to argue how ANet is supposed to distribute their resources.
Sorry for straying off the topic.

I stay by my arguments. I don’t see how a slightly longer enrage timer or what Blaeys.3102 mentioned requires any large amount of resources but I’m also not a game developer.

It was a simple Idea and I will leave it at that.

It’s the fact that none of the current encounters need a longer enrage timer. They are all easy enough to complete within the timer so long as you are willing to put in the time and effort.

Let’s not forget Raids are Challenging content, making them easier content is really an affront to their design and intent. Most of the calls for an easy mode (not saying yours) still want equal loot for half the effort, and that’s just not right by any means.

TexZero.7910:

It’s the fact that none of the current encounters need a longer enrage timer. They are all easy enough to complete within the timer so long as you are willing to put in the time and effort.

Let’s not forget Raids are Challenging content, making them easier content is really an affront to their design and intent. Most of the calls for an easy mode (not saying yours) still want equal loot for half the effort, and that’s just not right by any means.

You take things you already possess for granted. Imagine yourself to be a new player (A game will always NEED new players).

You need a raid group which is willing to teach you.
You need raid gear to have enough dps for the timers.
You need to learn the patterns, timings and mechanics. (e.g. 30 minute youtube video that you have to rewatch because you can’t memorize everything)
You need to learn what utility, role and teamwork is required from your class.

This all puts up a huge wall of knowledge which simply scares most casual players off, but it doesn’t need to.
Reduce the loot all you want (there are some who just want to expierence the story content).
Tweak the boss damage that it doesn’t result in a wipe for every single mistake. (Allows for more practice)

TexZero.7910:

RyanCid.9270:

Rising Dusk.2408:

ANet is devoting more than 98% of its development effort on content and features outside of raids. If players move on to other games knowing that, then that’s their prerogative. ANet knows who their largest audience is, and will be working to support them in the coming months.

I did not come here to argue how ANet is supposed to distribute their resources.
Sorry for straying off the topic.

I stay by my arguments. I don’t see how a slightly longer enrage timer or what Blaeys.3102 mentioned requires any large amount of resources but I’m also not a game developer.

It was a simple Idea and I will leave it at that.

It’s the fact that none of the current encounters need a longer enrage timer. They are all easy enough to complete within the timer so long as you are willing to put in the time and effort.

Let’s not forget Raids are Challenging content, making them easier content is really an affront to their design and intent. Most of the calls for an easy mode (not saying yours) still want equal loot for half the effort, and that’s just not right by any means.

Actually most that I see are just interested in being able to experience the content itself, which is a fair request (and there are ways to do it without compromising design or belittling the effort of harder core raiders).

EcoRI.9273:

Hopefully the FoTM team can release boss encounters that are just as challenging as the raid bosses.

Just sayin, you better let me know if you come back fam, we miss you.

Also were pretty boss at fotm so you need us.

RyanCid.9270:

TexZero.7910:

It’s the fact that none of the current encounters need a longer enrage timer. They are all easy enough to complete within the timer so long as you are willing to put in the time and effort.

Let’s not forget Raids are Challenging content, making them easier content is really an affront to their design and intent. Most of the calls for an easy mode (not saying yours) still want equal loot for half the effort, and that’s just not right by any means.

You take things you already possess for granted. Imagine yourself to be a new player (A game will always NEED new players).

You need a raid group which is willing to teach you.
You need raid gear to have enough dps for the timers.
You need to learn the patterns, timings and mechanics. (e.g. 30 minute youtube video that you have to rewatch because you can’t memorize everything)
You need to learn what utility, role and teamwork is required from your class.

This all puts up a huge wall of knowledge which simply scares most casual players off, but it doesn’t need to.
Reduce the loot all you want (there are some who just want to expierence the story content).
Tweak the boss damage that it doesn’t result in a wipe for every single mistake. (Allows for more practice)

Again though, all the “walls” exist not just for new players but for everyone.

People who are willing to raid, will overcome those walls.

Finding a group is problematic, and i agree Anet could do better here. But lets not mix the two topics up. Adding proper group finding tools, isn’t the same as an easy mode nor should they be brought up together.

The “gear” aspect is kinda a joke, this may seem off-base to some of the people claiming to be casual but the raids are entirely able to be completed in exotics which are easy to come by.

Learning the patterns and attacks can be done without watching videos, but again it goes back to the community aspect at the start. They do need better integration tools, LFGuild and an improved LFGtab are a solid starting point.

Before even entering a Raid you should be more than familiar with your class, if you aren’t then chances are you shouldn’t be raiding but instead should be progressing through scaling content Dungeons → Fractals → Raids. Yes the state of dungeons is dismal but it’s a place to learn without the fear of being punished. Fractals are a good spot to learn your limits and how far you can push them. Raids is the practice of your knowledge of the games mechanics and interactions as well as your ability to react and position properly.

I don’t think this is a bad thing, and i really will re-iterate that an easy mode/story mode is pretty much not needed. Even if “time” is your worry its not like the Raids are temporary, so your option to play them is always there.

Additionally the time investment is significantly less than what most people are putting out there. Consider you have a week to full clear the raid, while no single boss encounter takes longer than 15 minutes. Meaning even the most casual player can once they overcome the same burden of knowledge all raiders face complete the entire raid in just shy of an hour pending.

Again though, all the “walls” exist not just for new players but for everyone.

People who are willing to raid, will overcome those walls

And those who don’t see them worth overcoming considering the time investment?

Using the wall metaphor an easy mode would introduce a foothold on the wall which makes it easier to overcome without reducing the height of the wall.
More casual people would simply climb the foothold first and after clearing half the wall they won’t see it as hard as they though it would be in the beginning.

RyanCid.9270:

Again though, all the “walls” exist not just for new players but for everyone.

People who are willing to raid, will overcome those walls

And those who don’t see them worth overcoming considering the time investment?

Using the wall metaphor an easy mode would introduce a foothold on the wall which makes it easier to overcome without reducing the height of the wall.
More casual people would simply climb the foothold first and after clearing half the wall they won’t see it as hard as they though it would be in the beginning.

For what purpose does there need to be an easy mode ?
The encounters themselves are simplistic enough as is. The only “challenge” here is learning the patterns and phases. If you can do that as an individual, you’re more than capable of raiding.

And i’ll state it again, if its about getting “casual” people in the way to do that is not by making it easier. It’s by putting the proper framework for those people to get together in place.

Sorry you don’t seem to be getting my point.
I’ve said all I needed too.

The purpose of an easy mode is to allow the most people possible the access to content that shouldn’t be exclusive and only available to hardcore players, like story, lore, exploration, and the boss fight itself.

The purpose of a hard mode is to make things truly challenging, and to gate content that should be truly exclusive and only available to a fistfull of really awesome players, like legendary items, skins, achievements and titles.

Ardid.7203:

The purpose of an easy mode is to allow the most people possible the access to content that shouldn’t be exclusive and only available to hardcore players, like story, lore, exploration, and the boss fight itself.

The purpose of a hard mode is to make things truly challenging, and to gate content that should be truly exclusive and only available to a fistfull of really awesome players, like legendary items, skins, achievements and titles.

This would be the case if any of that was in any way actually gated. Which it’s not.
The raid is open to all players, regardless of skill. Whether you succeed at it is ultimately upto the effort you put in.

Again, as a reminder Raids are by their nature aimed at a different audience and are designed to be hard content. So creating an easy mode is contrary to their very design.

TexZero.7910:

Again, as a reminder Raids are by their nature aimed at a different audience and are designed to be hard content. So creating an easy mode is contrary to their very design.

Ok wouldn’t say that Dark Souls is an hardcore game aimed for hardcore players?

I myself believe so. But still, there is design in the game for variable difficulty and adapt the game for the different skills of the players. What you find challenging, someone else can find it trivial and someone else find too hard. And you can see it with GW2 raid. Someone people were hoping that the 2nd wing would be harder than the 1st, while other still can’t complete it.

So why is it valid in Dark Souls and pretty much the majority of all game to have a variable degree of difficulty so that as many people as possible could enjoy the game at the level of difficulty they prefer, but that’s not valid for raids?

Thaddeus.4891:

TexZero.7910:

Again, as a reminder Raids are by their nature aimed at a different audience and are designed to be hard content. So creating an easy mode is contrary to their very design.

Ok wouldn’t say that Dark Souls is an hardcore game aimed for hardcore players?

I myself believe so. But still, there is design in the game for variable difficulty and adapt the game for the different skills of the players. What you find challenging, someone else can find it trivial and someone else find too hard. And you can see it with GW2 raid. Someone people were hoping that the 2nd wing would be harder than the 1st, while other still can’t complete it.

So why is it valid in Dark Souls and pretty much the majority of all game to have a variable degree of difficulty so that as many people as possible could enjoy the game at the level of difficulty they prefer, but that’s not valid for raids?

GW2 already has variable levels of difficulty built in. Dungeons → Fractals → Raids.

Why are we trying to gut Raids when the solution for those that want more casual content is pretty clearly already there for them ?

Dark souls 2 was trial and error with no one judging you,i got to new game +7 and would never dream of trying raids.This game was originally designed to bring players together.
Raids are divisive,elitist and toxic.

TexZero, sorry to say this, but skill level IS a gate. As it is smart organization. And available play time. (And they are perfectly valid, correct and valuable gates. No one should get everything, and better players should get better and unique rewards.)

But you also shouldn’t deny the more general content to people who can’t fulfill those exigences. Everything lore related that happens after the Vale Guardian is, efectively, closed to people that can’t beat the boss because of skill, time or socialization restraints. IMO that IS a mistake.

Ardid.7203:

TexZero, sorry to say this, but skill level IS a gate. As it is smart organization. And available play time. (And they are perfectly valid, correct and valuable gates. No one should get everything, and better players should get better and unique rewards.)

But you also shouldn’t deny the more general content to people who can’t fulfill those exigences. Everything lore related that happens after the Vale Guardian is, efectively, closed to people that can’t beat the boss because of skill, time or socialization restraints. IMO that IS a mistake.

I’m sorry you feel entitled to every piece of the content. But that’s just your opinion and where you and i are going to have to disagree.

Not all content needs to cater to everyone, and in-fact this game has already shown that it doesn’t. We don’t PvP in the open world do we ? We don’t have unique WvW only adventures right ?

Also, if we are going to build content that’s catered to everyone Anet will eventually have one of the worst play experiences a game could imagine as they would have to design content that is extremely rewarding and yet so easy and accessible that you can literally get away with pretty much afking….sounds familiar (OPEN WORLD). Now imagine a game with nothing but the open world experience, how fast would you get bored. My money is on pretty fast.

Also, not being able to complete something really is only a problem with people who quit. Learn from your mistakes and improve. Complaints about socializing in an MMO is just …. i have no words for this.
I’ve already covered the “time” aspect ad nasuem.

I’m pretty sure that every person in this thread would agree that a well implemented easy/story mode would be a great thing to have. The problem is whether it is worth the time to design, balance, and maintain – and I would say that it is not.

If you want to experience a fight that feels challenging but is ultimately achievable with some practice, then I really do sympathize with you. But a truly well designed easy mode – which I assume is what people actually want, rather than the same encounter but with the boss numbers dropped to idiot levels – is something that would be difficult to make, and would delay the raid content releases substantially and would require significant additional bug fixing time.

So the question becomes “is it worth it reduce the frequency of raid releases but make them more accessible”. And I admit that this question does not have a clear cut answer. I would say that it is not, because I believe that raids in their current state are the most interesting content in the game and cutting back on releases would make the game less enjoyable for me and my friends. Many people would probably say that it is worth it to have less but more universal content. But I think that the vast majority of those same players would rather just have more/better content releases for fotm, wvw, and general pve (LS3, new maps, etc), because those things have much better rewards and replay value than an easy mode raid ever would, and also expand the scope of the game much further. And if/when those things come out, the number of people who care that there is no raid easy mode will drop fast.

Ardid.7203:

But you also shouldn’t deny the more general content to people who can’t fulfill those exigences. Everything lore related that happens after the Vale Guardian is, efectively, closed to people that can’t beat the boss because of skill, time or socialization restraints. IMO that IS a mistake.

For anyone that wants to “experience the story content” and really truly doesn’t give two kittens about the encounter itself you can post in LFG offering 1-2g for people to open the raid wing at any point. We do it all the time for training runs. Then you can explore at your own pace and experience 95% of the lore (missing out on boss dialogue) for like 10g total. Honestly it’s probably worth the gold at this point anyway because you get ascended mats for achievements lol.

But my guess is that very few of these people actually exist.

TexZero.7910:

GW2 already has variable levels of difficulty built in. Dungeons -> Fractals -> Raids.

Why are we trying to gut Raids when the solution for those that want more casual content is pretty clearly already there for them ?

no one is trying to gut raids. Raids should be stay as they are. We are talking about an additionnel difficulty. Tbh i would also love an hard mode, not just an easy mode.

Thaddeus.4891:

TexZero.7910:

GW2 already has variable levels of difficulty built in. Dungeons -> Fractals -> Raids.

Why are we trying to gut Raids when the solution for those that want more casual content is pretty clearly already there for them ?

no one is trying to gut raids. Raids should be stay as they are. We are talking about an additionnel difficulty. Tbh i would also love an hard mode, not just an easy mode.

You must not be reading the same thread i am then, where in people are indeed asking for them to gut the raids by adding an easy mode.

TexZero.7910:

You must not be reading the same thread i am then, where in people are indeed asking for them to gut the raids by adding an easy mode.

ADDING an easy mode. You still have the normal mode, which is as hard as the current raid. The raid would still be 100% the same. There is just another mode that is easier with less reward.

Thaddeus.4891:

TexZero.7910:

You must not be reading the same thread i am then, where in people are indeed asking for them to gut the raids by adding an easy mode.

ADDING an easy mode. You still have the normal mode, which is as hard as the current raid. The raid would still be 100% the same. There is just another mode that is easier with less reward.

Ever heard of subtraction by addition ?

That’s exactly what adding an Easy mode does.
Since you like to use games and game principals as examples i’ll use one you should be familiar with.

Have you ever wondered why as you climb in ranks for PvP your time to play becomes longer and longer ? It’s because as you climb the selection pool gets thinner and thinner. The same can be said in this case when add a mode to Raids which already has (if you believe the fantasy numbers) only 5% of the player base doing it.

Now does adding an easy mode actually add to people doing the current content ? No. Pretty straightforward.

What it does do, is add more time to development. Which if you are to go by what the general forum consensus believes is a bad idea for something that would be underutilized, especially when there’s not enough “Casual” content.

Making an easy mode of the raid doesn’t change the core problems these players are facing. Lack of Time / Proper Grouping Resources.

So again, why is this needed instead of the actual tools that would solve the problem and why should Anet spend extra resources trying to balance 2 modes. Better yet, what happens when that easy mode isn’t easy enough….are we going to have to make a SUPER EASY/TUTORIAL mode ?

Lets be real about this. Anyone who has put the time and effort into raiding can tell you an easy mode is not needed. People just need the proper tools to be developed to facilitate them getting into the right Guilds for them, into Raids (general), and tools to help them visually discern why they failed and what they can improve on.

Thaddeus.4891:

TexZero.7910:

You must not be reading the same thread i am then, where in people are indeed asking for them to gut the raids by adding an easy mode.

ADDING an easy mode. You still have the normal mode, which is as hard as the current raid. The raid would still be 100% the same. There is just another mode that is easier with less reward.

This 100%.

No one is asking anyone to gut the current content or take away the challenge raiders currently have.

More people playing a game mode = more incentive for the developers to keep that game mode alive and healthy. That seems like something all raiders should get behind.

Ok people, difficulty settings can work both ways…

You can make things more difficult and less difficult.

Nobody is taking anything away, just wanting to add options for all players.

The devs will eventually do stuff like this because they will learn the hard way to not exclude players.

TexZero.7910:

Thaddeus.4891:

TexZero.7910:

You must not be reading the same thread i am then, where in people are indeed asking for them to gut the raids by adding an easy mode.

ADDING an easy mode. You still have the normal mode, which is as hard as the current raid. The raid would still be 100% the same. There is just another mode that is easier with less reward.

Ever heard of subtraction by addition ?

That’s exactly what adding an Easy mode does.
Since you like to use games and game principals as examples i’ll use one you should be familiar with.

Have you ever wondered why as you climb in ranks for PvP your time to play becomes longer and longer ? It’s because as you climb the selection pool gets thinner and thinner. The same can be said in this case when add a mode to Raids which already has (if you believe the fantasy numbers) only 5% of the player base doing it.

Now does adding an easy mode actually add to people doing the current content ? No. Pretty straightforward.

What it does do, is add more time to development. Which if you are to go by what the general forum consensus believes is a bad idea for something that would be underutilized, especially when there’s not enough “Casual” content.

Making an easy mode of the raid doesn’t change the core problems these players are facing. Lack of Time / Proper Grouping Resources.

So again, why is this needed instead of the actual tools that would solve the problem and why should Anet spend extra resources trying to balance 2 modes. Better yet, what happens when that easy mode isn’t easy enough….are we going to have to make a SUPER EASY/TUTORIAL mode ?

Lets be real about this. Anyone who has put the time and effort into raiding can tell you an easy mode is not needed. People just need the proper tools to be developed to facilitate them getting into the right Guilds for them, into Raids (general), and tools to help them visually discern why they failed and what they can improve on.

What you wrote is a total nonsense.

Mortifer.2946:

TexZero.7910:

Thaddeus.4891:

TexZero.7910:

You must not be reading the same thread i am then, where in people are indeed asking for them to gut the raids by adding an easy mode.

ADDING an easy mode. You still have the normal mode, which is as hard as the current raid. The raid would still be 100% the same. There is just another mode that is easier with less reward.

Ever heard of subtraction by addition ?

That’s exactly what adding an Easy mode does.
Since you like to use games and game principals as examples i’ll use one you should be familiar with.

Have you ever wondered why as you climb in ranks for PvP your time to play becomes longer and longer ? It’s because as you climb the selection pool gets thinner and thinner. The same can be said in this case when add a mode to Raids which already has (if you believe the fantasy numbers) only 5% of the player base doing it.

Now does adding an easy mode actually add to people doing the current content ? No. Pretty straightforward.

What it does do, is add more time to development. Which if you are to go by what the general forum consensus believes is a bad idea for something that would be underutilized, especially when there’s not enough “Casual” content.

Making an easy mode of the raid doesn’t change the core problems these players are facing. Lack of Time / Proper Grouping Resources.

So again, why is this needed instead of the actual tools that would solve the problem and why should Anet spend extra resources trying to balance 2 modes. Better yet, what happens when that easy mode isn’t easy enough….are we going to have to make a SUPER EASY/TUTORIAL mode ?

Lets be real about this. Anyone who has put the time and effort into raiding can tell you an easy mode is not needed. People just need the proper tools to be developed to facilitate them getting into the right Guilds for them, into Raids (general), and tools to help them visually discern why they failed and what they can improve on.

What you wrote is a total nonsense.

no, he is completly right

just look at the ‘prime’ example WoW with multiple difficulties

LFR added close to zero new players to the raid pool for normal guilds, it just removed people from normal raiding to LFR because it’s zero effort to do it and they got the same rewards with smaller numbers.
many guilds struggled to maintain their rooster (thats why flexible raids were developed).

after the rewards got nerfed many of the reward only players returned to normal raiding (which got also easier with flexible raid size) and now LFR is struggling with abnormal high queue times for DDs.

an easy mode won’t have an noticible effect on the total raiding players, it will just take a chunk of players from normal to easy raiding and destroy raiding guilds

the amount of people who want to raid to experience the story is very small and you get most of it outside of the encounters anyway in GW2, most people just want the legendary armor
so either you remove the rewards from the easy mode and the playerbase is too small to justify it or you give them the same rewards even with smaller dropchances and you will destroy normal raiding

It still doesn’t make sense.

No “noticible effect” [sic] on the total number of raiding players? Nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense.

Ask WoW Player how the player pool improved after the introduction of LFR.

In GW2 it will get even worse, they can’t offer better rewards so people playing the easy mode either get the same items with arbitrary restrictions like lower dropchance or lower shard cap to force them into normal mode or the player pool for normal raiding will decrease significantly (path of least resistance).
‘normal mode’ guilds will struggle to find new players or are forced into easy mode.

If you remove all rewards the playerbase is too small to justify the costs.

LFR in WoW only exists to justify the reduced open world content because ‘all people can access the raid, so more content for everyone’ (and not to justify the costs for raids, they would be there anyway)

If easy mode raids were as easy as say, fractals and dungeons, tons more people would be playing them, evekittengnificantly reduced rewards. That’s undeniable. And if part of those extra players come from the potential pool of ‘real’ raid players, well, that’s just witness to how few people are actually interested in ‘real’ raids.

Cut away the people who are raiding because there’s nothing else new to do (and there isn’t), that’s when you get a realistic sense of how many people actually want to do ‘real’ raiding.

Thaddeus.4891:

TexZero.7910:

You must not be reading the same thread i am then, where in people are indeed asking for them to gut the raids by adding an easy mode.

ADDING an easy mode. You still have the normal mode, which is as hard as the current raid. The raid would still be 100% the same. There is just another mode that is easier with less reward.

The problem with this easy mode is “How much easier is easy enough?”

The main issue is that players are asking for an easy Raid, not an easier Raid. There is a huge difference between the two. Making a version with more forgiving mechanics will sure allow more players to play the Raid, but you will still leave a lot of the playerbase away of the Raid. So what do you do then? Continue releasing more and more easy versions so everyone can do the Raid? How many Raid difficulties would you need for that?

We are talking about players who can’t do a single fractal above 20, or can’t avoid Kholer’s spin attack, yet they want to Raid for the rewards and/or the story. Let’s say that there needs to be an easier version, the next question is how much easier it should be.

Dungeons and fractals aren’t played that frequently as you think, infact old fractals lvl 50 were completed by less players than VG and a proper LFG-Tool would add more players to the pool than an easy mode without destroying the current playerbase (and they confirmed that it is in the works).

If you really want to add ‘tons’ of players you have to implement a LFG like WoW (automated) which will never happen (confirmed like 2 years ago) or introduce a 5 player mode which is also unlikely (and you can’t just reduce the player count, as mechanics require a fixed amount of people).

People only interested in the story will play it once and are gone from the pool of available players after their first run.

If you force people into easy mode because they can’t find players for the normal mode anymore they will get bored more quickly and also play less or stop playing that content at all reducing the player pool further.

An easy mode may be beneficial for a short amount of time after the release of a raid wing but will not add anything or even reduce the replay value in the long run.