Guild Wars 2

bug fix
/15chars

Easy mode as I suggested is to allow new players to learn the boss mechanics without watching a 30 minute youtube video and wiping countless times because of a single error.

The rewards should be something like 1/10th-1/15th of the normal mode since this will encourage people to play the normal mode and not farm the easy mode for rewards (maybe limit them like dailies)

@Miellyn.6847
Please refrain from anecdotes of WoW or personal expierence. You don’t know the numbers so don’t talk like you know.
Edit: I didn’t want to sound condescending. It’s simply that anecdotal arguments won’t progress the discussion since everyone has their own expierences and they will clash with others with neither being more valid without proper statistical evidence.

Ummm, I just realized something:
If anet make an easy version of Raid, but with crappy reward, wouldn’t that just turn it into Dungeon? And we know how popular that content nowadays…

Yeah but with the easy mode you can learn how to play raid properly since the boss and the mechanics are the same

You, the ones against the easy mode, you still don’t get it! Easy mode is not for replaying, it is to EXPERIENCE it once! It is obvious that raid is an introduction to the Mursaat and White Mantle Season 3 story line. Why should be people who are just not good enough players entitled to experience this part of the story from a youtube video? Why do they have to skip all the bosses and events because they are just unbeatable for them?

Simple damage nerf with some changes to boss cooldowns would be good enough for an easy mode. It just needs to be forgiving for making several mistakes (the big ones). Removal of timers is also something that might help.

Rewards? what rewards? There are MANY people who just want to see it, or will want to see it when the S3 is out. If they will be specifically told in the journal panel, that raids are the highest difficulty content aimed for the most dedicated players and that they can try out easy mode if they want to have just a taste of it and experience the story, I believe it is a good enough argument for the players to understand that they don’t deserve any raid-specific rewards if they can’t beat it in the normal mode. Simple box with green loot with some chance of getting some exotic loot would be more than enough.

I just don’t believe Guild Wars 2 should have story-driven content that is not beatable by everyone. Personal story, S1, S2, Personal story 2: everything was doable by any player. Up until raids.

People who don’t want this implementation are just selfish. It wouldn’t touch them at all. They would still be the only ones having the boss loot, titles, legendary armor.

edit: low level fractals and story dungeons are also beatable by everyone

maddoctor.2738:

The problem with this easy mode is “How much easier is easy enough?”

The main issue is that players are asking for an easy Raid, not an easier Raid. There is a huge difference between the two. Making a version with more forgiving mechanics will sure allow more players to play the Raid, but you will still leave a lot of the playerbase away of the Raid. So what do you do then? Continue releasing more and more easy versions so everyone can do the Raid? How many Raid difficulties would you need for that?

We are talking about players who can’t do a single fractal above 20, or can’t avoid Kholer’s spin attack, yet they want to Raid for the rewards and/or the story. Let’s say that there needs to be an easier version, the next question is how much easier it should be.

You think in absolute in black and white. Difficulty is a spectrum, from the best players in the game to the worst. From squad that can 6man no updraft gorseval, to the team that can’t avoid kholer’s spin attack like you said. At which difficulty level exactly an easy would be best, I don’t know. But this easy vs easier is just sementic. Easy is not an absolute, it’s not a specific level of difficulty since it change depending to who you talk. I agree that it would be stupid to make an easy mode easy enough for people that can’t even play dungeon or fractal.

Miellyn.6847:

no, he is completly right

just look at the ‘prime’ example WoW with multiple difficulties

LFR added close to zero new players to the raid pool for normal guilds, it just removed people from normal raiding to LFR because it’s zero effort to do it and they got the same rewards with smaller numbers.
many guilds struggled to maintain their rooster (thats why flexible raids were developed).

after the rewards got nerfed many of the reward only players returned to normal raiding (which got also easier with flexible raid size) and now LFR is struggling with abnormal high queue times for DDs.

an easy mode won’t have an noticible effect on the total raiding players, it will just take a chunk of players from normal to easy raiding and destroy raiding guilds

the amount of people who want to raid to experience the story is very small and you get most of it outside of the encounters anyway in GW2, most people just want the legendary armor
so either you remove the rewards from the easy mode and the playerbase is too small to justify it or you give them the same rewards even with smaller dropchances and you will destroy normal raiding

From what you are telling me it’s the reward balance that was a problem not the easy mode itself. People didn’t bother with the normal raid because they could get the same reward in a fraction of the time and effort. Nobody is asking that. The reward should be way higher on the normal raid, than an easy mode. And flexible raid size seem like a bad idea too. Now on your point about easy mode will just move the population between easy and normal mode and don’t add any population. I disagree. I can’t speak for everybody in the game, but in my guild of 450 people, we are about 45 regular raider, and I’m sure that at lest 50-60 other players would raid in easy mode. Like I said, I can only talk about the people in my guild, but I don’t see why if done correctly players that can do normal raid would want to do easy mode.

Thaddeus.4891:

maddoctor.2738:

The problem with this easy mode is “How much easier is easy enough?”

The main issue is that players are asking for an easy Raid, not an easier Raid. There is a huge difference between the two. Making a version with more forgiving mechanics will sure allow more players to play the Raid, but you will still leave a lot of the playerbase away of the Raid. So what do you do then? Continue releasing more and more easy versions so everyone can do the Raid? How many Raid difficulties would you need for that?

We are talking about players who can’t do a single fractal above 20, or can’t avoid Kholer’s spin attack, yet they want to Raid for the rewards and/or the story. Let’s say that there needs to be an easier version, the next question is how much easier it should be.

You think in absolute in black and white. Difficulty is a spectrum, from the best players in the game to the worst. From squad that can 6man no updraft gorseval, to the team that can’t avoid kholer’s spin attack like you said. At which difficulty level exactly an easy would be best, I don’t know. But this easy vs easier is just sementic. Easy is not an absolute, it’s not a specific level of difficulty since it change depending to who you talk. I agree that it would be stupid to make an easy mode easy enough for people that can’t even play dungeon or fractal.

I fear if they open that can of worms (different difficulty settings for Raids) the complaints and the nerf requests won’t stop and the Raid will enter a permanent nerf spiral getting nerf after nerf until everyone can beat that content. One more difficulty setting with slightly easier mechanics is not a bad thing, entering a loop of contant nerfs is. And that’s what I fear might happen with this community

RyanCid.9270:

Yeah but with the easy mode you can learn how to play raid properly since the boss and the mechanics are the same

So you think people dodge boss attacks that don’t kill them? The reason people learn the mechanics is because they suffer when they don’t.

If none of the bosses’ attacks hurt you (being easy mode) you won’t learn.

We don’t need to split the Raid Team up… The Raid does not need an easy mode.

maddoctor.2738:

I fear if they open that can of worms (different difficulty settings for Raids) the complaints and the nerf requests won’t stop

This is 100% true, just ask the SNP and how the Scottish Parliament appeased seperatists (or how the Sudetenland satisfied Hitler).

The Raid is fine and doesn’t need an easy mode.

Coulter.2315:

So you think people dodge boss attacks that don’t kill them? The reason people learn the mechanics is because they suffer when they don’t.

If none of the bosses’ attacks hurt you (being easy mode) you won’t learn.

We don’t need to split the Raid Team up… The Raid does not need an easy mode.

I never said it wouldn’t hurt you. I said it wouldn’t result in an instant wipe. Please read carefully.

Coulter.2315:

maddoctor.2738:

I fear if they open that can of worms (different difficulty settings for Raids) the complaints and the nerf requests won’t stop

This is 100% true, just ask the SNP and how the Scottish Parliament appeased seperatists (or how the Sudetenland satisfied Hitler).

The Raid is fine and doesn’t need an easy mode.

How can you even compare this??
How does maddoctor.2738 conclude one thing automatically leads to another? Does buffing thiefs automatically enable thief players to demand infinite buffs?

Guys please at least provide arguments that make sense

RyanCid.9270:

Guys please at least provide arguments that make sense

Sure, right after you stop dismissing valid arguments to further your own post agenda.

You’ve yet to address why we need an easy mode or how that’s actually going to help get people into raiding.

You’ve also yet to address the bottomless hole of just how easy we go and what happens when the easy mode isn’t easy enough.

You’ve also yet to address why the gameplay mode built around challenging players should have an easy mode to begin with, when there’s already content for those players to go an consume.

So please address these and maybe we can get back on track.

RyanCid.9270:

How does maddoctor.2738 conclude one thing automatically leads to another? Does buffing thiefs automatically enable thief players to demand infinite buffs?

Guys please at least provide arguments that make sense

Talking from experience mostly. From other MMORPGs and also this one. Doesn’t help that when Anet decide to nerf something they nerf with a Sledgehammer so there is usually no point in further nerfs because when they nerf… they completely destroy.

See, if they actually reduced the difficulty of the Chak Gerent it would still be a great encounter. But they used a sledgehammer and from a challenging encounter it became a walk in the park. They could’ve nerfed slightly his hit points to keep the fight challenging, but no, they nerfed his hp so badly that now you can do the Chak Gerent while semi-afk without the need for any kind of organization. It’s a REAL JOKE. From the hardest open world encounter in the game, to world boss quality with a single patch.

Is that what people want from an “easy” mode Raid? And if the nerfs to the “easy mode” of the Raid aren’t like this, trust me, the complaints and the endless crying will continue until it reaches THAT joke level. That’s this community

RyanCid.9270:

Coulter.2315:

So you think people dodge boss attacks that don’t kill them? The reason people learn the mechanics is because they suffer when they don’t.

If none of the bosses’ attacks hurt you (being easy mode) you won’t learn.

We don’t need to split the Raid Team up… The Raid does not need an easy mode.

I never said it wouldn’t hurt you. I said it wouldn’t result in an instant wipe. Please read carefully.

Coulter.2315:

maddoctor.2738:

I fear if they open that can of worms (different difficulty settings for Raids) the complaints and the nerf requests won’t stop

This is 100% true, just ask the SNP and how the Scottish Parliament appeased seperatists (or how the Sudetenland satisfied Hitler).

The Raid is fine and doesn’t need an easy mode.

How can you even compare this??
How does maddoctor.2738 conclude one thing automatically leads to another? Does buffing thiefs automatically enable thief players to demand infinite buffs?

Guys please at least provide arguments that make sense

If the mechanic doesn’t kill anyone there will be no motivation to learn it in easy mode, I have further doubts anyone having done easy mode will then try the real Raid.

I love your counter argument “Does buffing thiefs automatically enable thief players to demand infinite buffs?” gave me a good laugh, the answer is:

OF COURSE THEY WANT MORE! (have you met people?)

@TexZero
Refer to my past posts.

1.) Why? to address a bigger player base and to give a entry stage for more casual players which are part of the bigger player base

2.) How? Visual and audio indicators for boss attacks. Less wipe potential (its not 100% or 0% kitten @maddoctor) what I mean is if you kitten up once you maybe get downed to 20% hp but you can recover from one mistake. Why do you have to think in black and white? If you kitten it up twice in a row then it’s still a wipe.

3.) As to your third question refer to my first answer as it is the same.

I have said this 3 times now in this thread but you people keep dismissing it.

@maddoctor: You can’t use anecdotes (what you expierenced) in such a discussion.

@Coulter: Why do you guys have to think in either BLACK or WHITE? Refer to my 2nd answer.
Also I merely answered your ridiculous statement (the one comparing guildwars 2 to a scottish parliament) with a ridiculous counter statement to show you how ridiculous it is. (Hint: Ridiculous)

RyanCid.9270:

@Coulter: Why do you guys have to think in either BLACK or WHITE? Refer to my 2nd answer.
Also I merely answered your ridiculous statement (the one comparing guildwars 2 to a scottish parliament) with a ridiculous counter statement to show you how ridiculous it is. (Hint: Ridiculous)

I was comparing “people who are never satisfied” with “people who are never satisfied.” You could have googled if you didn’t understand what I was saying or just asked.

RyanCid.9270:

@maddoctor: You can’t use anecdotes (what you expierenced) in such a discussion.

I gave you an example too or you didn’t read it?

maddoctor.2738:

I fear if they open that can of worms (different difficulty settings for Raids) the complaints and the nerf requests won’t stop and the Raid will enter a permanent nerf spiral getting nerf after nerf until everyone can beat that content. One more difficulty setting with slightly easier mechanics is not a bad thing, entering a loop of contant nerfs is. And that’s what I fear might happen with this community

I can understand that. I would really not want that either. But if you are using that argument, am I right in assuming that 1 easy mode is ok with your, but that you fear that if they do that, that might lead to constant nerfs?

But I don’t understand why you talk about nerf. We are talking about a easy mode, not nerfing the existing raid. So if you are using a slippery slope argument, that would mean that you fear that if they add a easy mode of the raid, people might ask for an even easier mode and that we could end up with 3 Difficulty settings 1 super easy, 1 easy and the normal raid. That would be no nerf. Nerf would be a complete other change, a change that I believe most people would be against if they were different level of difficulty. At least, I don’t seem to recall anyone in this post to ask for a nerf of the current raid.

maddoctor.2738:

RyanCid.9270:

@maddoctor: You can’t use anecdotes (what you expierenced) in such a discussion.

I gave you an example too or you didn’t read it?

Even your example doesn’t fit the topic. Easy mode =/= Nerfing.

Coulter.2315:

If the mechanic doesn’t kill anyone there will be no motivation to learn it in easy mode, I have further doubts anyone having done easy mode will then try the real Raid.

True and I don’t think it would be a good idea for an easy mode. I would prefer to make it easier to do the mechanics, but it would still be as punishing if you don’t succeed. For exemple at VG. If you remove the timer and limit the number of people needed in the green circle to 2 players and remove the 4th Seeker in the last phase. The mechanics are still as punishing and people need to learn how to do it. They are just easier to handle. People will still have to learn to move the boss, to do the circle, to no let seekers reach you, etc.

Thaddeus.4891:

maddoctor.2738:

I fear if they open that can of worms (different difficulty settings for Raids) the complaints and the nerf requests won’t stop and the Raid will enter a permanent nerf spiral getting nerf after nerf until everyone can beat that content. One more difficulty setting with slightly easier mechanics is not a bad thing, entering a loop of contant nerfs is. And that’s what I fear might happen with this community

I can understand that. I would really not want that either. But if you are using that argument, am I right in assuming that 1 easy mode is ok with your, but that you fear that if they do that, that might lead to constant nerfs?

But I don’t understand why you talk about nerf. We are talking about a easy mode, not nerfing the existing raid. So if you are using a slippery slope argument, that would mean that you fear that if they add a easy mode of the raid, people might ask for an even easier mode and that we could end up with 3 Difficulty settings 1 super easy, 1 easy and the normal raid. That would be no nerf. Nerf would be a complete other change, a change that I believe most people would be against if they were different level of difficulty. At least, I don’t seem to recall anyone in this post to ask for a nerf of the current raid.

The only concrete concern I’ve been able to glean from this thread was that the “real” raid would suffer from a reduced player base, which is a detestable notion. People are not in the game to entertain others, they’re there for themselves.

All the rest is just nonsense.

RyanCid.9270:

@TexZero
Refer to my past posts.

1.) Why? to address a bigger player base and to give a entry stage for more casual players which are part of the bigger player base

2.) How? Visual and audio indicators for boss attacks. Less wipe potential (its not 100% or 0% kitten @maddoctor) what I mean is if you kitten up once you maybe get downed to 20% hp but you can recover from one mistake. Why do you have to think in black and white? If you kitten it up twice in a row then it’s still a wipe.

3.) As to your third question refer to my first answer as it is the same.

I have said this 3 times now in this thread but you people keep dismissing it.

Have you even raided ?

I’m not trying to make light of you, but it’s like you’re talking out of something other than a mouth here.

All of what your asking for is in raids, missing a mechanic != wipe. There are audio queues, there are visual queues.

The only lacking thing to get raids to a wider audience is the proper group formation tools which is in dev atm.

So again, why do raids need an easy mode when all an easy mode serves to do here is divide the community further, when the proper tools for bringing people in would decrease the divisive nature ?

Thaddeus.4891:

maddoctor.2738:

I fear if they open that can of worms (different difficulty settings for Raids) the complaints and the nerf requests won’t stop and the Raid will enter a permanent nerf spiral getting nerf after nerf until everyone can beat that content. One more difficulty setting with slightly easier mechanics is not a bad thing, entering a loop of contant nerfs is. And that’s what I fear might happen with this community

I can understand that. I would really not want that either. But if you are using that argument, am I right in assuming that 1 easy mode is ok with your, but that you fear that if they do that, that might lead to constant nerfs?

But I don’t understand why you talk about nerf. We are talking about a easy mode, not nerfing the existing raid. So if you are using a slippery slope argument, that would mean that you fear that if they add a easy mode of the raid, people might ask for an even easier mode and that we could end up with 3 Difficulty settings 1 super easy, 1 easy and the normal raid. That would be no nerf. Nerf would be a complete other change, a change that I believe most people would be against if they were different level of difficulty. At least, I don’t seem to recall anyone in this post to ask for a nerf of the current raid.

The problem as I see it, at least in adding different modes is much the same as when we used to have people asking for an inspection option to view party members gear during the dungeon speed run days.

Anet didn’t want to give us the tools to filter players because they didn’t want to divide the player base. The same thing comes into affect here. If they add the easier raid it would require additional time for them to balance the difficulty. Not to mention divide the number of raiders up between Easy mode and Normal mode.

The other question is rewards. We already know many players are upset that legendary armor is locked behind raids. So if an easier mode is added then this same group of players will want the same rewards added to easy mode. We all know this will happen, because there is a group of players who want the shinnies, but don’t want to work towards it.

RyanCid.9270:

maddoctor.2738:

RyanCid.9270:

@maddoctor: You can’t use anecdotes (what you expierenced) in such a discussion.

I gave you an example too or you didn’t read it?

Even your example doesn’t fit the topic. Easy mode =/= Nerfing.

An easy mode version is a nerfed version, that’s by definition. So how many of those easy modes will you have? 1 2 3 10? If their first “easy mode” isn’t easy enough for the masses they will still complain, will you create a “double easy” version or nerf the already existing “easy mode”? I’d say nerf the easy mode because having a billion different difficulties of the same thing doesn’t make any sense. So there you have it, nerfing to promote easy mode.

Mortifer.2946:

You, the ones against the easy mode, you still don’t get it! Easy mode is not for replaying, it is to EXPERIENCE it once! It is obvious that raid is an introduction to the Mursaat and White Mantle Season 3 story line. Why should be people who are just not good enough players entitled to experience this part of the story from a youtube video? Why do they have to skip all the bosses and events because they are just unbeatable for them?

I think that’s a problem for ArenaNet. Don’t you think that, for them, making something that most people would run only once is also a waste of resources? The current raid at least make a certain kind of players keep playing the game…

TexZero.7910:

The only lacking thing to get raids to a wider audience is the proper group formation tools which is in dev atm.

So again, why do raids need an easy mode when all an easy mode serves to do here is divide the community further, when the proper tools for bringing people in would decrease the divisive nature ?

I’m not sure about that. I mean, I have no problem with saying. Hey let’s fix the proper group formation tools first and then look at the situation again and see if that’s enough.

But I don’t believe it will be enough.

I think a raid “story mode” would be fine. You can go in solo or with 5 people. The bosses are easily done solo; no real mechanics, timers, or large health pools. There are no rewards, maybe a little xp. You can’t do achieves. You are just able to do the story, look at soldier badges, journal entries.

No harm in that really. That way people that don’t want to or can’t put in the time to learn the encounters could still at least experience the story.

TexZero.7910:

RyanCid.9270:

@TexZero
Refer to my past posts.

1.) Why? to address a bigger player base and to give a entry stage for more casual players which are part of the bigger player base

2.) How? Visual and audio indicators for boss attacks. Less wipe potential (its not 100% or 0% kitten @maddoctor) what I mean is if you kitten up once you maybe get downed to 20% hp but you can recover from one mistake. Why do you have to think in black and white? If you kitten it up twice in a row then it’s still a wipe.

3.) As to your third question refer to my first answer as it is the same.

I have said this 3 times now in this thread but you people keep dismissing it.

Have you even raided ?

I’m not trying to make light of you, but it’s like you’re talking out of something other than a mouth here.

All of what your asking for is in raids, missing a mechanic != wipe. There are audio queues, there are visual queues.

The only lacking thing to get raids to a wider audience is the proper group formation tools which is in dev atm.

So again, why do raids need an easy mode when all an easy mode serves to do here is divide the community further, when the proper tools for bringing people in would decrease the divisive nature ?

1). You are a troll
2)You are kinda of kitten player, how doesnt/want to understand why ppls wants easy mode, hell even w/o rewards, at least to understand/learn the mechanics.

By my take, you are on the second option so GTFO.

Thaddeus.4891:

But I don’t believe it will be enough.

Fair enough.

However, i don’t think placating and creating multiple raid modes is the right solution, if anything it’s a step backwards.

SidewayS.3789:

1). You are a troll
2)You are kinda of kitten player, how doesnt/want to understand why ppls wants easy mode, hell even w/o rewards, at least to understand/learn the mechanics.

By my take, you are on the second option so GTFO.

Neither. I understand people wanting to learn.

I just come from a different school of thought than what you may be used to. If you want to learn the fight, learn the fight. Don’t go into a low / no stress environment as that doesn’t teach you properly.

Now then, the other point being made here is rather comical. People claiming they want the easy mode to learn but cannot be bothered to watch 5-8 minute videos of the fights ?

Okay seems legit.jpg

TexZero.7910:

Thaddeus.4891:

But I don’t believe it will be enough.

Fair enough.

However, i don’t think placating and creating multiple raid modes is the right solution, if anything it’s a step backwards.

And it’s ok. You believe that it’s a bad idea, I believe it’s a good idea and I don’t think we can change each other mind. But I was always a fan of incremental change so you can see what work or not. So in 1 or 2 patch they will improve the LFG for raid and I’m sure that will help a lot. Time will also help a lot as more people become better at raid. Gorseval also became a lot more easier with last patch when they fixed the aggro boss that made him move all over the place. So maybe in 4 months the currents problem will be a lot present. We’ll see then if further step will be needed.

TexZero.7910:

SidewayS.3789:

1). You are a troll
2)You are kinda of kitten player, how doesnt/want to understand why ppls wants easy mode, hell even w/o rewards, at least to understand/learn the mechanics.

By my take, you are on the second option so GTFO.

Neither. I understand people wanting to learn.

I just come from a different school of thought than what you may be used to. If you want to learn the fight, learn the fight. Don’t go into a low / no stress environment as that doesn’t teach you properly.

Now then, the other point being made here is rather comical. People claiming they want the easy mode to learn but cannot be bothered to watch 5-8 minute videos of the fights ?

Okay seems legit.jpg

Ok, lets try to draw the picture for you, since you cant get it.
I give you a 10 minutes video of soldiers who are on the battlefield, after this i would give you a weapon to go on the battlefield to kill the enemy, w/o any training, only that 10 minutes video. Now, you understand? If no, then i’m sorry i will not replay, because you stucked your head in the sand, and from there you are screeming “i do raids, i iz best”

SidewayS.3789:

TexZero.7910:

SidewayS.3789:

1). You are a troll
2)You are kinda of kitten player, how doesnt/want to understand why ppls wants easy mode, hell even w/o rewards, at least to understand/learn the mechanics.

By my take, you are on the second option so GTFO.

Neither. I understand people wanting to learn.

I just come from a different school of thought than what you may be used to. If you want to learn the fight, learn the fight. Don’t go into a low / no stress environment as that doesn’t teach you properly.

Now then, the other point being made here is rather comical. People claiming they want the easy mode to learn but cannot be bothered to watch 5-8 minute videos of the fights ?

Okay seems legit.jpg

Ok, lets try to draw the picture for you, since you cant get it.
I give you a 10 minutes video of soldiers who are on the battlefield, after this i would give you a weapon to go on the battlefield to kill the enemy, w/o any training, only that 10 minutes video. Now, you understand? If no, then i’m sorry i will not replay, because you stucked your head in the sand, and from there you are screeming “i do raids, i iz best”

Or you know you could form a group of people attempting to learn the raid, go in and learn it ?

It’s not like there’s any consequence for failing……

See the biggest thing i’m noticing between those that go in there and raid and those that don’t is this. Those that don’t are afraid of failure. Those that do raid, know that failure is part of the learning process. This is why those players often seem “superior” or “better” than you. It’s because they took the time to learn from the countless mistakes instead of waiting for someone to tell them how everything works and certainly didn’t wait for an easy mode.

There’s something to be said for dedication and internal motivations for self-improvement. Try analyzing yourself here and see if maybe the raid isn’t the issue but you are.

SidewayS.3789:

TexZero.7910:

SidewayS.3789:

1). You are a troll
2)You are kinda of kitten player, how doesnt/want to understand why ppls wants easy mode, hell even w/o rewards, at least to understand/learn the mechanics.

By my take, you are on the second option so GTFO.

Neither. I understand people wanting to learn.

I just come from a different school of thought than what you may be used to. If you want to learn the fight, learn the fight. Don’t go into a low / no stress environment as that doesn’t teach you properly.

Now then, the other point being made here is rather comical. People claiming they want the easy mode to learn but cannot be bothered to watch 5-8 minute videos of the fights ?

Okay seems legit.jpg

Ok, lets try to draw the picture for you, since you cant get it.
I give you a 10 minutes video of soldiers who are on the battlefield, after this i would give you a weapon to go on the battlefield to kill the enemy, w/o any training, only that 10 minutes video. Now, you understand? If no, then i’m sorry i will not replay, because you stucked your head in the sand, and from there you are screeming “i do raids, i iz best”

Erm… That analogy is nonsense.

Firstly we all are “soldiers” in this case, we all already know how to use our weapons, builds and traits already and dodge etc. We have the training.

Secondly the battlefield has the exact same setup every time, the enemy troops do the exact same thing every time – have you seen the movie Live, Die, Repeat or Edge of Tomorrow (its a Tom Cruise movie but actually pretty good, the first half anyway)? In the movie a noob gets to fight a war over and over learning each time, avoiding all the 1 shots because he gets experience playing it (he get killed and killed and killed but respawns and learns each time – this is the best example I can give you that fits your description).

People learn through experience and beating difficult content, it would be a shame for all if you ripped that away from them and gave them nothing to grow from (this is what easy mode would do).

TexZero.7910:

Have you even raided ?

I’m not trying to make light of you, but it’s like you’re talking out of something other than a mouth here.

All of what your asking for is in raids, missing a mechanic != wipe. There are audio queues, there are visual queues.

The only lacking thing to get raids to a wider audience is the proper group formation tools which is in dev atm.

So again, why do raids need an easy mode when all an easy mode serves to do here is divide the community further, when the proper tools for bringing people in would decrease the divisive nature ?

Why would it divide the community? Easy mode has reduced rewards so that the ultimate goal is to guide new players more easy to the regular raid mode. if anything it adds to the community. Raiders who are familiar with raids wouldn’t do easy mode anyways.

RyanCid.9270:

TexZero.7910:

Have you even raided ?

I’m not trying to make light of you, but it’s like you’re talking out of something other than a mouth here.

All of what your asking for is in raids, missing a mechanic != wipe. There are audio queues, there are visual queues.

The only lacking thing to get raids to a wider audience is the proper group formation tools which is in dev atm.

So again, why do raids need an easy mode when all an easy mode serves to do here is divide the community further, when the proper tools for bringing people in would decrease the divisive nature ?

Why would it divide the community? Easy mode has reduced rewards so that the ultimate goal is to guide new players more easy to the regular raid mode. if anything it adds to the community. Raiders who are familiar with raids wouldn’t do easy mode anyways.

See Fractals.

The more variation you add the less likely you are to find a group for you.

You are comparing 100 levels of fractals to normal mode and easy mode

RyanCid.9270:

You are comparing 100 levels of fractals to normal mode and easy mode

Problem still exist. The more variance you add, the lesser the pools become for both modes.

You’ll get people who don’t feel the easy mode is easy enough (wont raid), You’ll start dividing raiding guilds into Normal/Easy Hardcore/Casual. You’ll get those who want a whole new Hard Mode, after all what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Opening the door to modular changes only increases divisiveness. You do end up hurting both community due to that.

TexZero.7910:

RyanCid.9270:

You are comparing 100 levels of fractals to normal mode and easy mode

Problem still exist. The more variance you add, the lesser the pools become for both modes.

You’ll get people who don’t feel the easy mode is easy enough (wont raid), You’ll start dividing raiding guilds into Normal/Easy Hardcore/Casual. You’ll get those who want a whole new Hard Mode, after all what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Opening the door to modular changes only increases divisiveness. You do end up hurting both community due to that.

By that logic, adding Fractal and Raid diminish the pool of players for these modes. So anet should have never added Fractal and Raid.

TexZero.7910:

RyanCid.9270:

You are comparing 100 levels of fractals to normal mode and easy mode

Problem still exist. The more variance you add, the lesser the pools become for both modes.

You’ll get people who don’t feel the easy mode is easy enough (wont raid), You’ll start dividing raiding guilds into Normal/Easy Hardcore/Casual. You’ll get those who want a whole new Hard Mode, after all what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Opening the door to modular changes only increases divisiveness. You do end up hurting both community due to that.

Not at all.
Raiders who clear on normal mode have no reason to go to easy because there is less loot. (No loss on existing player pool)
But it allows players who else wouldn’t have tried raids at all to give it a try.

And if they clear easy mode a few times they will want to join the normal mode because it’s more loot efficient. (Total increase of raid population)

RyanCid.9270:

TexZero.7910:

RyanCid.9270:

You are comparing 100 levels of fractals to normal mode and easy mode

Problem still exist. The more variance you add, the lesser the pools become for both modes.

You’ll get people who don’t feel the easy mode is easy enough (wont raid), You’ll start dividing raiding guilds into Normal/Easy Hardcore/Casual. You’ll get those who want a whole new Hard Mode, after all what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Opening the door to modular changes only increases divisiveness. You do end up hurting both community due to that.

Not at all.
Raiders who clear on normal mode have no reason to go to easy because there is less loot. (No loss on existing player pool)
But it allows players who else wouldn’t have tried raids at all to give it a try.

And if they clear easy mode a few times they will want to join the normal mode because it’s more loot efficient. (Total increase of raid population)

Purely speculative, unless you somehow have a crystal ball. Coming from someone who didn’t want anecdotal evidence where’s your proof ?

Players who have no interest in raids, would still have no interest in an easy mode as its still raids.

Where as people who do raid, will go to the normal runs to use it as a testing ground which removes them from the player pool.

@Thad

Not really Raids and Fractals can mutually co-exist as they aim for the same crowd. Hence why Raids were even marketed as if you have 4 friends you run fractals with, now you just need a 2nd party of similar players.

Raids, Fractals, and Dungeons can all co-exist as they do not infringe on each others toes and provide area’s for players to grow. Downgrading Raids to have an easy mode doesn’t increase the movement of players but causes stagnation in the the player pool. Where in people don’t feel they ever need to go do something higher because they can get what they want from the easier modes.

Hence why if you want to learn2play you should go to dungeons first, then Fractals to improve your overall skill and group play synergy. Then finally when you think you’ve peaked you can utilize the skills you’ve learned (social ones too) to create a group of like minded people and test yourselves against the raids.

Again though the raids aren’t even hard. The real problem is the tools not being in place. Dungeons being utter poop right now, and fractals being changed to this super casual 1 and done thing.

If fractals had not changed and you still had the 4 fractals in 1 shot, you would have seen more community growth and a much better social aspect develop as you actually would have had to spend time with people and get to know them.

It literally all comes back to the tools not being in place for players to progress, not raids being too hard.

RyanCid.9270:

TexZero.7910:

RyanCid.9270:

You are comparing 100 levels of fractals to normal mode and easy mode

Problem still exist. The more variance you add, the lesser the pools become for both modes.

You’ll get people who don’t feel the easy mode is easy enough (wont raid), You’ll start dividing raiding guilds into Normal/Easy Hardcore/Casual. You’ll get those who want a whole new Hard Mode, after all what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Opening the door to modular changes only increases divisiveness. You do end up hurting both community due to that.

Not at all.
Raiders who clear on normal mode have no reason to go to easy because there is less loot. (No loss on existing player pool)
But it allows players who else wouldn’t have tried raids at all to give it a try.

And if they clear easy mode a few times they will want to join the normal mode because it’s more loot efficient. (Total increase of raid population)

You left out those currently trying to clear the Raid who would just drop to easy mode, this is a reduction in people doing the real Raid. (I’m assuming you forgot that by accident and not deliberately)

Did you know the existence of a story mode in dungeons reduced the total number of people who would choose to play the explorable mode after?

Let establish some things. First the problem:

Players want to experience the lore part of the raid without having to deal with the actual raid difficulty and all that entails.

I believe most players would agree that everyone being able to experience the lore would be acceptable but the problem is that most of the solutions being proposed have been tried in other games and have some pretty large drawbacks.

Let’s talk about an easy mode difficulty:

What it solves:

1. Gives players who don’t have a ton of time to invest a chance to experience the raid and the lore involved.
2. Creates potential interest in further raiding.

Issues that arise:

1. Rewards are hard to balance. Too little rewards and no one runs them (See dungeons) and the people who want to experience the lore are in the same position they are now. Too much and it feels like you are being forced to clear it regularly, WoW has a problem with this as players who are working on normal+ modes feel like they also should clear LFR to maximize their time gated rewards.
2. Mechanics need to be scaled down and become irrelevant. It doesn’t become a “practice mode” people don’t learn mechanics that don’t hurt them. Bosses become zergsfests which are wholly uninteresting. Often times even if you are trying to learn mechanics you cannot tell what is going to be threatening and what will not in the next level of difficulty.
3. You still have the difficulty of getting 9 other people together to run it. You either have to develop a queue system for these people or a large chunk of the people you are trying to reach won’t be able to do it.
4. Is this replayable content? Once everyone is done and seen the lore how do new players get to experience it? What if no one wants to do it after a few weeks because they’ve already done it?
5. Development time, there’s a lot of overhead that you introduce with this system. Mechanical tuning, systems surrounding it to group people together, etc.

Lets talk about a story/soloable mode:

What it solves:

1. Gives players who don’t have a ton of time to invest a chance to experience the raid and the lore involved.
2. Removes the requirement of making a group to experience the content.
3. Rewards are easy because you don’t need to drive people to do it, the people that want the story will and those that don’t care can ignore it.

Issues that arise:

1. Development time is the biggest one. This would essentially be a small LS release. Which is no small feat according to Anet. This is a ton of work for maybe a half hour of play time for maybe half the population.
2. Mechanics would have to be reworked for an individual level (Think about how you’d make Vale Guardian a single player experience. You’d essentially have to rework half the fight).

Of the two I think a story mode is the least damaging mode, BUT I’d be very wary of the amount of resources it would take to develop something like this. The current rate of development is already disappointing and having something like this take up more resources would be a further let down.

I believe Anet when they say this is simply a side story. It probably won’t lead into LS3 at all and maybe LS3 will recap it somehow for those that missed it. The biggest issue is the drought of non-raid lore we are in. People need to just hold tight or go play another game until LS3 launches.

Coulter.2315:

RyanCid.9270:

TexZero.7910:

RyanCid.9270:

You are comparing 100 levels of fractals to normal mode and easy mode

Problem still exist. The more variance you add, the lesser the pools become for both modes.

You’ll get people who don’t feel the easy mode is easy enough (wont raid), You’ll start dividing raiding guilds into Normal/Easy Hardcore/Casual. You’ll get those who want a whole new Hard Mode, after all what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Opening the door to modular changes only increases divisiveness. You do end up hurting both community due to that.

Not at all.
Raiders who clear on normal mode have no reason to go to easy because there is less loot. (No loss on existing player pool)
But it allows players who else wouldn’t have tried raids at all to give it a try.

And if they clear easy mode a few times they will want to join the normal mode because it’s more loot efficient. (Total increase of raid population)

You left out those currently trying to clear the Raid who would just drop to easy mode, this is a reduction in people doing the real Raid. (I’m assuming you forgot that by accident and not deliberately)

Lolwat… did you read my last sentence?

@TexZero
I’m going to ignore you from now on since you are either a troll (as stated by SidewayS.3789) or you simply are not able to participate in a progressive discussion.

Coulter.2315:

You left out those currently trying to clear the Raid who would just drop to easy mode, this is a reduction in people doing the real Raid. (I’m assuming you forgot that by accident and not deliberately)

And how is that a problem. If those people prefer to do an easy mode, then it’s their choice, not your. You can imagine all sort of group that would do a lot of different thing. Yes there is people that are working on raid right now and either have a difficulty time or a just lazy and would do easy mode only if it exist. There is other people that can’t get into raid because they have a hard time getting into pugs to practice and so an easy mode would allow them to partice enough to get into the real raid. Maybe some people don’t try raid because it seem like this big hard content ,but if they could experiment easy mode, they would want try the normal raid.

I can make up all sort of group that hypothetically have different reaction to the introduction of raid. Neither those assumption, nor your assumption are base on facts or evident, just our personal opinions. We also have no idea what’s the percentage of people that could be in those different groups.

SlyDevil.3952:

Did you know the existence of a story mode in dungeons reduced the total number of people who would choose to play the explorable mode after?

No, but the counter argument is

I only have to experience story once.
There’s alternative stories being told in explorable and that the existence of explorable did negatively impact story mode play through.

I made this suggestion:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/What-new-fractals-would-you-like-to-see/first#post6036048
to solve the “easy mode” Raid question. It’s simple: put Raid encounters into Fractals.

Benefits:
A) It will be a different Fractal for each boss, so it takes much less time to do than a complete Raid. I know you can continue a Raid during a week, but Fractals are still faster than killing a Raid boss
B) It’s content for 5 people and not 10 people, much easier to find 5 than 10, much more accessible
C) It integrates with a current system of rewards (Fractal rewards) so there is absolutely no need to balance out the easy and hard version with each other (risk vs reward, something Anet has proven to be horrible at)
D) It will probably be done by a different team (Fractal team) and not the Raid team
E) It will allow players to see all the story/lore without the need to do the long/hard Raid
F) It will add about 4-6 new Fractals, so it’s a huge bonus for Fractal content itself. New mechanics, new bosses, with minimal action from other teams of the company (other than gameplay all the graphic/sound assets will be the same

Profit?

Thaddeus.4891:

Coulter.2315:

You left out those currently trying to clear the Raid who would just drop to easy mode, this is a reduction in people doing the real Raid. (I’m assuming you forgot that by accident and not deliberately)

And how is that a problem. If those people prefer to do an easy mode, then it’s their choice, not your.

Actually its Anet’s choice and I very much support keeping the system as is, having raided in WoW before and after the introduction of the extra difficulties I have seen the disaster that brought and don’t want it here.

The best raid WoW had was Ulduar, which had 1 difficulty but had a hard mode version based on a choice for each encounter which is the system being implemented by the achievements here in GW2.

The current system is perfectly fine and if people want to know the lore behind the raid they can watch Wooden Potatos. The raid team should focus on generating NEW raid content not nerfing previous stuff (this seems to be a major problem people asking for different difficulties overlook).

Please don’t mess up the decent raid system which is already taking quite a bit of time between releases by bogging it down with unnecessary extra difficulties.

Also for any devs watching I am enjoying wing 2, good job

Just a question: For all of you who keep asking “Just make an easy mode,” who exactly do you expect to build this? I would not want the raid team to dedicate even one second of time to this task since I’d prefer they keep building their raid bosses. Are you willing to give up content you care about for this?

Nokaru.7831:

Are you willing to give up content you care about for this?

They’re asking for easy mode because they aren’t getting any content. There’s nothing to give up.