Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Anyone who actually, actively, participated in LS1 shouldn’t have a single problem with HoT difficulty. Note the word “actively”. Pressing 1 while hiding in big blobs is not active participation.

Nah. LS1 mobs were hard-hitting, that’s true, but there was nowhere close to the HoT level of cc spam. You had to get into a whole crowd of aethers for things to really get iffy. And it was aethers specifically – moltens were nowhere close, and toxic alliance kraits didn’t really differ from normal ones.

I must be playing a different HoT then because I’ve never seen this CC-spam. Aside from taking on more mushrooms than you should.

but with your easy mode raid, you don’t want to experience the gameplay of raid.

I do not want the exact same experience of the raid, in that it’s easy to wipe, but I do want the exact same mechanics of the raid, in that you’d need to avoid the exact same stuff, destroy or CC the exact same stuff, etc. if you want to do it “perfectly.” The only difference would be that if you don’t do it perfectly, then you’re less likely to fail completely and have to start over. I’ve been VERY clear about this, there should be no room for misunderstanding.

Failure and wipes ARE components of the raid gameplay. You want the raid rewards (i.e. legendary armor) without risk. That’s not something i will agree with.

Well that’s just too bad, but on the bright side, nobody needs your agreement.

Hey you are the one doing it. This game DOES have a difficulty curve and you want to remove it. Don’t impose your flawed ideas on the game.

And you were the one agreeing that most of this game does have a relatively flat curve. There is training up to level 80, then almost everything is of roughly equal difficulty, aside from a few dungeons and Fractals that are slightly harder, and then HoT open world which can in places be harder still, and then raids which are way above and beyond any of that. So prior to HoT, very little of the game was higher than the “standard” difficulty that the entire game was at, the level that a player would have to be comfortable with if he was going to be playing the game at all.

With HoT and raiding, the difficulty level jumped considerably, and you can insist that it’s merely the curve that was the problem, that with proper mid-steps along the way all players would be totally on board with the increased difficulty, and I’ll insist that there are many people for whom the increased difficulty would NEVER be what they want, and so long as you refuse to learn, I’m incapable of teaching you so we’ll just go around in circles. Why bother?

Not really. Sure Mordremoth’s army is higher difficulty, but not significantly so. But yeah short memory is a big issue.

If you continue to insist this, then sure, short term memory must be the issue.

It’s not off topic just because you of all people say it. The topic is about increasing accessibility and fixing the LFG (and everything else I posted which you missed)

Um, no, the topic is about raid difficulty levels. LFG has nothing to do with the difficulty level. Where are you getting the idea that this topic has anything to do with LFG? Just because people who do NOT want raid difficulty levels keep bringing up LFG does not mean LFG has anything to do with raid difficulty levels, it just means that these people continually attempt to derail the thread with off topic statements.

And yes, LFG does solve some problems but it solves DIFFERENT problems than the core ones being discussed in this thread. It’s again handrails for a staircase instead of a wheelchair ramp. It helps people, but not the people that are asking for help here.

The “needs” discussed is YOU getting the Legendary Armor, that’s why you disagree with every other possible way of fixing Raid accessibility. It won’t gift you your Legendary Armor. Just admit it that’s the only reason you argue against any other “proposal”

Asked and answered. Repeatedly.

Seriously, they had some pretty nasty mechanics such as self-rezzes, condis and the champion versions were particularly nasty.

The champions may have been tricky to solo, but they were total HP sponge chumps in zergs, and HoT Vets are sometimes just as much of a threat to a solo player.

Yes sure, cancel the only piece of HOT that is nice, you’re so right

It’s clearly nice for some people, and clearly not nice for others. The problem is that the players who do enjoy it are not playing well with others and sharing, so the end result may be that their toy has to be taken away entirely for the good of the game as a whole. Ideally though we can both get what we want, a hard mode for you, completely untouched, and an easy mode for me, which you never have to mess with.

The only thing i read in a these threads is : i want legendary armor, but i’m not good enough to do actual raid and i dont want to improve and learn my class and raid mecanisms. So pls Anet, nerf raids so that i can spam 1 and be legendary too…

And so long as you maintain that attitude and don’t actually listen to people who disagree with you, you’ll never learn. All this time spent posting, and you could have spent it listening instead.

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Perhaps then what the raid really needs is a hard set Gear Check built in, like Fractals have with Agony Resist.

This is something I always wondered. Raids are above dungeons and fractals in difficulty. They are 10-man content and not 5-man content, they require more preparation, thought and skill. But you still get players with zero experience in GW2 instanced content that want to do Raids, skipping the entire learning process.

What is needed is for the players to get it in their heads that Raids are the next type of content after dungeons and fractals. You can’t go to 10-man content without mastering 5-man content, that should’ve been obvious, but apparently for some it’s not.

And really a player who reaches 80+ Fractals shouldn’t have problems adapting to the Raid mechanics anyway. They should have enough Ascended gear, enough experience, a good build, and so on. Only thing missing is the number of players, and changing how LFG works is a good step forward to making finding more players easier.

And what do they do when they fail? They ask for “difficulty settings” instead of following the learning process as they should. But something like agony isn’t a good solution either for multiple reasons, but one of the highest ones, is it prevents players from using multiple characters in Raids. In Raids composition is KEY, which means the best players use multiple characters with different builds to fill roles, if you needed something like AR to outfit them all, it would cause serious problems.

No. To me it’s more like a player issue. Players themselves need to understand the learning process and do things “in order”.

Not seeing your objection, as I would imagine that every Key position should be an optimal build, and every serious raider would not only know this, but embrace it.

Just like If someone wants to run a 76 Level Fractals, any character they wanted to use, would need to be fully outfitted for the task, not sure why the raid should be the exception to that kind of rule.

Ohoni.6057:

And you were the one agreeing that most of this game does have a relatively flat curve. There is training up to level 80, then almost everything is of roughly equal difficulty, aside from a few dungeons and Fractals that are slightly harder, and then HoT open world which can in places be harder still, and then raids which are way above and beyond any of that. So prior to HoT, very little of the game was higher than the “standard” difficulty that the entire game was at, the level that a player would have to be comfortable with if he was going to be playing the game at all.

Actually that’s false. Dungeons and Fractals are harder than the rest of the game, certain open world bosses are harder than the rest of the game, and even among the level 80 zones, there is a progression, Southsun is harder than Cursed Shore, Dry Top is harder than Southsun, and Silverwastes is harder than Dry Top. Each new zone added higher difficulty mobs and higher difficulty events. And there was no “standard” difficulty, you said it yourself that there is training until 80, which means every level between 1 and 80 was different in difficulty, so there is no “standard” here. Prior to HoT the game had a progression, after HoT there is also a progression. You wanting to skip the progression doesn’t change the fact that the game already has a progression curve, it only needs to be improved.

If you continue to insist this, then sure, short term memory must be the issue.

Not my problem if you can’t remember.

And yes, LFG does solve some problems but it solves DIFFERENT problems than the core ones being discussed in this thread. It’s again handrails for a staircase instead of a wheelchair ramp. It helps people, but not the people that are asking for help here.

There is only one problem, Raid accessibility. And the LFG can fix it (as well as adjusting the difficulty curve). It’s the same problem discussed in this thread and these are ways of fixing it. It helps people who actually have a problem, and it does it well. I don’t know what you are talking about anymore, do you want the problem fixed or not?

Asked and answered. Repeatedly.

There are many proposed solutions to the actual problem and none give you your free armor, that’s why you disagree with them. Or rather you call them off-topic for your own selfish reasons.

Ohoni, i dont spent much time posting, you know, i spent most of my time raiding :p
that’s the bright side of it, this content is nice and enjoyable. too bad for you, but at least you have the forum to have fun

STIHL.2489:

Not seeing your objection, as I would imagine that every Key position should be an optimal build, and every serious raider would not only know this, but embrace it.

Just like If someone wants to run a 76 Level Fractals, any character they wanted to use, would need to be fully outfitted for the task, not sure why the raid should be the exception to that kind of rule.

Simple, because in the Raid roles are more clearly defined than in Fractals. In Fractals you can substitute many builds for a given task, in the Raid they are more specific. And besides if a player is really good they can do high level Fractals without doing the earlier ones, why shouldn’t it be the case in the Raid too?

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

Perhaps then what the raid really needs is a hard set Gear Check built in, like Fractals have with Agony Resist.

This doesn’t seem like a good solution to this imaginary problem.

Going to have to disagree with you there. It’s a real problem of players feeling alienated and thus generating animosity. I mean, this topic existing, is testament to the fact that it’s a problem, and a real one at that.

Now, I want you to read this. See what they are saying.

Ohoni.6057:

The point is that players don’t WANT to “progress” through dungeons and fractals before raids. And that’s fine, there’s no reason that they should have to other than that you would like them to. The solution is to make raids that are fun for these players, not to change these players to be fun for you.

It’s pretty simple, they want the Raid Open to everyone. I don’t think by this point anyone is confused by what Ohoni is saying. I could even agree with them to a point in making a Story Mode version of the raid.

But, we need to understand that this subject would never have come up if there was a Hard Gear Check like a level 80+ Fractal has.

No one would question where this raid stood on the tier of “if they could do it or not”, and everyone would knew exactly what it took to be ready to simply enter.

A Hard Gear Check would resolve and absolve all these discussions, the hundreds of posts back and forth, never would have happened, had Anet simply put in a Hard Gear Check. And the easiet way they could do that, is via the Versatile Infusions, requiring all 14 of them.

STIHL.2489:

A Hard Gear Check would resolve and absolve all these discussions, the hundreds of posts back and forth, never would have happened, had Anet simply put in a Hard Gear Check. And the easiet way they could do that, is via the Versatile Infusions, requiring all 14 of them.

Well the Raid difficulty being higher than fractal difficulty is how they “resolved” this problem. It’s a player fault that they want to skip grades and do Raids without any experience in instanced content. It’s a player fault if they want to do Raids in non-min maxed Exotic gear with a couple of rare items, and expect to win.

Also, let’s be frank. Do you honestly believe it would be a good thing to add a hard gear check NOW? If it was there when the Raid was released then maybe yes it could work. But now? Not a very good idea.

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Not seeing your objection, as I would imagine that every Key position should be an optimal build, and every serious raider would not only know this, but embrace it.

Just like If someone wants to run a 76 Level Fractals, any character they wanted to use, would need to be fully outfitted for the task, not sure why the raid should be the exception to that kind of rule.

Simple, because in the Raid roles are more clearly defined than in Fractals. In Fractals you can substitute many builds for a given task, in the Raid they are more specific. And besides if a player is really good they can do high level Fractals without doing the earlier ones, why shouldn’t it be the case in the Raid too?

Not seeing your Objection here.

I would imagine clearly defined roles would make this easier, you know what to make, how to build it, and gives you something to work for. Know you role/Own your role if you want to take on a second role, then it’s just something else to work for. I don’t see your objection.

Are you saying that these elite players, the ones that feel they are the top percent of the game, those that thrive on difficult content and challenge, do not have the means to get Ascended Gear on more then one character?

Actually that’s false. Dungeons and Fractals are harder than the rest of the game, certain open world bosses are harder than the rest of the game, and even among the level 80 zones, there is a progression, Southsun is harder than Cursed Shore, Dry Top is harder than Southsun, and Silverwastes is harder than Dry Top. Each new zone added higher difficulty mobs and higher difficulty events.

Are they though? Even though some of the content has more complex mechanics, it’s easy enough to get lost in the crowd, so they don’t really take exceptional skill of individual participants. I mean, you know I don’t like raids, but I’ve done all the other stuff, wasn’t all that hard.

Southsun is harder than Cursed Shore, Dry Top is harder than Southsun, and Silverwastes is harder than Dry Top.

This I don’t agree with at all. Certain mobs in Southsun can be real jerks, but nothing in Southsun is as hard as the Temple of Grenth. Nothing in Drytop is particularly hard at all, the only difficulty there is making sure that players are adequately balanced amongst all activities, a better UI would solve that. Pretty much the same with Silverwastes really, none of the mobs really involve that much personal skill, it’s mostly ensuring that you have the right amount at each location. On an individual basis, they are all roughly equivalent in difficulty, HoT is a significant jump up from that, and raids are an exponential jump up from that.

which means every level between 1 and 80 was different in difficulty, so there is no “standard” here.

Well, not every level. I would say that there is some slight curve between 1 and 15 or so, and that’s mostly because your skill is limited, and beyond that there are few surprises. I mean, the centaurs you fight in Hirathi Hinterlands are the same ones from Queensdale.

Not my problem if you can’t remember.

Nor mine that you can ’t, but again, loops.

There is only one problem, Raid accessibility. And the LFG can fix it (as well as adjusting the difficulty curve).

No.

LFG can solve one very MINOR barrier to entry for SOME people. It does absolutely nothing whatsoever to solve the more significant barriers to entry for most of the people. Again, handrails instead of ramps.

There are many proposed solutions to the actual problem and none give you your free armor, that’s why you disagree with them. Or rather you call them off-topic for your own selfish reasons.

But I haven’t asked for any free armor. Ever. All I’ve asked for is a way to EARN the armor by doing an activity that I would enjoy as much as you enjoy progression raiding. And not just for me, obviously, but for anyone who feels the same way.

Again, you have not proposed any solutions for the actual problems being addressed by this thread, you have proposed solutions only to straw man issues that nobody in this thread actually has, because you do not WANT the actual issues to be solved, because they are not problems for you personally, and you feel that if they did get solved, it would somehow degrade your own experience, because people would be allowed to have fun in a way that you do not approve of.

If that’s your stance, then fine, at least be honest about it. Stop spouting about the LFG system, which is about as likely to help with the desire for easy mode raiding as it is to help with “solving” the gem store.

But, we need to understand that this subject would never have come up if there was a Hard Gear Check like a level 80+ Fractal has.

No one would question where this raid stood on the tier of “if they could do it or not”, and everyone would knew exactly what it took to be ready to simply enter.

A Hard Gear Check would resolve and absolve all these discussions, the hundreds of posts back and forth, never would have happened, had Anet simply put in a Hard Gear Check. And the easiet way they could do that, is via the Versatile Infusions, requiring all 14 of them.

I have to say, if raids did have a hard gear check, I would be demanding a version of it that did not. /shrug

I’m just generally opposed to excluding people from content that they might enjoy, for no other reason than that some players want to keep it for themselves.

maddoctor.2738:

Also, let’s be frank. Do you honestly believe it would be a good thing to add a hard gear check NOW?

Yes I do. Absolutely.

If for no other reason then to Simply to remove any misgivings on who should be entering this content.

What I don’t get, is why you are not really supporting this, unless you know, it would be too hard for you to get full ascended or something, and then you’re just part of the group that is whining that something would be too hard.

Ohoni.6057:

But, we need to understand that this subject would never have come up if there was a Hard Gear Check like a level 80+ Fractal has.

No one would question where this raid stood on the tier of “if they could do it or not”, and everyone would knew exactly what it took to be ready to simply enter.

A Hard Gear Check would resolve and absolve all these discussions, the hundreds of posts back and forth, never would have happened, had Anet simply put in a Hard Gear Check. And the easiet way they could do that, is via the Versatile Infusions, requiring all 14 of them.

I have to say, if raids did have a hard gear check, I would be demanding a version of it that did not. /shrug

I’m just generally opposed to excluding people from content that they might enjoy, for no other reason than that some players want to keep it for themselves.

Which Story Mode could Satisfy.

STIHL.2489:

Are you saying that these elite players, the ones that feel they are the top percent of the game, those that thrive on difficult content and challenge, do not have the means to get Ascended Gear on more then one character?

I have loads of characters and some of them are in the process or getting geared properly for Raids. A Chrono buffer, a Viper condition Engineer, a DPS Tempest, a PS Warrior and many others. Each one filling a specific and important role in the Raid. I can use any of these, even when they are not fully geared, fill the specific roles. It’s better to have them, even with some Exotic pieces, rather than not having them at all.

In Fractals I just use my Dragonhunter. Nobody will ever ask me to bring a Chrono or a Condi Engineer. I just go on my DH. As a core member of a Raid I’m expected to have multiple geared characters to fill any spots not taken by any potential non-core member. I need to be able to have all the roles to do training runs too, if I get a few guildies for a training run but none has a Chrono, I will need to provide one, as the one with the most experience.

I can’t play all of them if you add a hard gear check. I’d need to spend even more time (and money) to gear them all and have them ready for the Raid. We are not talking about one or two characters, more like 9.

And that’s all aside from the fact that hard gear check is bad on principle.

Ohoni.6057:

Are they though? Even though some of the content has more complex mechanics, it’s easy enough to get lost in the crowd, so they don’t really take exceptional skill of individual participants. I mean, you know I don’t like raids, but I’ve done all the other stuff, wasn’t all that hard.

Done it? Or hid behind others that actually did it? it’s one thing to call content easy, it’s a completely different thing to actually contribute and do it. Even the old pre-revamp Shatterer wasn’t as easy as players make it out to be if you tried it with 5 people. And that’s the major issue with LS1 and the open world, although it can be hard, you can get carried, I guess that’s what some people don’t like about LS2 and of course Raids. Both are instanced and they can’t get carried.

On an individual basis, they are all roughly equivalent in difficulty, HoT is a significant jump up from that, and raids are an exponential jump up from that.

I’d redirect you to threads about mordrem wolves and terragrifs if I could find them. On an individual basis even Raid bosses aren’t hard… in fact they are like big sacks of HP. Proof? If you join a really top tier expert team, you can just stand back and do some DPS, and let them do everything else. When the fight is done, you’ll be like: “is that what people call hard?” Then you try it yourself and see the difference.

LFG can solve one very MINOR barrier to entry for SOME people. It does absolutely nothing whatsoever to solve the more significant barriers to entry for most of the people. Again, handrails instead of ramps.

LFG solves the problem of accessibility. The “significant barriers” you are talking about are irrelevant. Fact is, they are changing the LFG, fact is they are going to revisit dungeons (whatever that means), fact is they are going to solve the swamps of the mists issue. In the end directly or indirectly they are going to great lengths to improve raid accessibility. That those solutions aren’t what you want is irrelevant. They are working towards making raids accessible, and that’s a fact. What they do after those is anyone’s guess

But I haven’t asked for any free armor. Ever. All I’ve asked for is a way to EARN the armor by doing an activity that I would enjoy as much as you enjoy progression raiding. And not just for me, obviously, but for anyone who feels the same way.

No. You asked for a free armor. You asked for a difficulty doable by people in non-min maxed exotics with a couple of rares, that’s the same as getting it handed to you for free. They already said what Raids ARE, challenging, end-game content that will push your skills to the limit. Your easy mode does the exact opposite. It goes against what they want Raids to be.

Again, you have not proposed any solutions for the actual problems being addressed by this thread, you have proposed solutions only to straw man issues that nobody in this thread actually has, because you do not WANT the actual issues to be solved, because they are not problems for you personally, and you feel that if they did get solved, it would somehow degrade your own experience, because people would be allowed to have fun in a way that you do not approve of.

I proposed solutions to the actual problem, called Raid Accessibility, which this thread also tries to address. That’s the actual problem and as explained above, they ARE working to fix it.

If that’s your stance, then fine, at least be honest about it. Stop spouting about the LFG system, which is about as likely to help with the desire for easy mode raiding as it is to help with “solving” the gem store.

The desire for “easy mode” raiding is equal to wanting the legendary armor for free. I asked how “easy” this easy mode you want it to be, because I never thought you’d want it for completely free. Then you posted how you want the easy mode to work and I was just laughing, didn’t have the courage to even respond to it (others did) that’s how much of a joke it was.

You want to “earn” the armor, what a joke.

maddoctor.2738:

I can’t play all of them if you add a hard gear check. I’d need to spend even more time (and money) to gear them all and have them ready for the Raid. We are not talking about one or two characters, more like 9.
.

And so to be able to raid with all 9, you would have to do what is necessary, and gear them up.

I second STIHL’s proposal. If these “raiders” are going to oppose difficulty settings and the like, then there absolutely needs to be a hard gear check, instead to prevent these threads in the future. If people aren’t willing to put in the work to gear their characters, then they clearly don’t actually want to raid. That is what all the raiders have been saying after all. To “put in the work” to be “worthy” of raids.

So, let’s have a hard gear check and maddoctor can put in the work to gear his nine characters.

None of us need care that it makes it harder for him to raid, since he doesn’t care that the current setup makes it hard for others to raid. It’s a perfectly fair and valid proposal for STIHL to raise. Kudos to them.

Gene Archer.8560:

I second STIHL’s proposal. If these “raiders” are going to oppose difficulty settings and the like, then there absolutely needs to be a hard gear check, instead to prevent these threads in the future.

Do you think that would prevent these threads from appearing? The next thread you will get is “please remove hard gear checks from Raids”

Gene Archer.8560:

maddoctor.2738:

I can’t play all of them if you add a hard gear check. I’d need to spend even more time (and money) to gear them all and have them ready for the Raid. We are not talking about one or two characters, more like 9.
.

And so to be able to raid with all 9, you would have to do what is necessary, and gear them up.

I second STIHL’s proposal. If these “raiders” are going to oppose difficulty settings and the like, then there absolutely needs to be a hard gear check, instead to prevent these threads in the future. If people aren’t willing to put in the work to gear their characters, then they clearly don’t actually want to raid. That is what all the raiders have been saying after all. To “put in the work” to be “worthy” of raids.

So, let’s have a hard gear check and maddoctor can put in the work to gear his nine characters.

None of us need care that it makes it harder for him to raid, since he doesn’t care that the current setup makes it hard for others to raid. It’s a perfectly fair and valid proposal for STIHL to raise. Kudos to them.

There’s no need to punish players for liking content. It makes your position look petty.

In my mind, there are two real legitimate arguments against easy mode raids.

The first is that it would be a waste of developer resources. As we are all now painfully aware, anet seems to have a problem regularly producing content. And the type of content easy mode raiders want is already in the game — dungeons, fractals, world bosses, open world. Raids fill a niche for hard pve content. We don’t need easy mode because that niche is already filled.

The second is a distrust in the ability to balance rewards. This argument varies slightly on where on the spectrum the easy mode raider is at in terms of rewards — it varies from none to full rewards. At none, we go back to argument one – it would be a waste in developer resources to make a mode with little to no replayability. If we give rewards to easy mode raids, well, anet does not have the best track record for balancing rewards in instanced content. The reward in fractals are hilariously imbalanced, in that everyone runs swamp. The rewards for dungeon paths were imbalanced, in that no one would run paths like SE p2, and, after the dungeon nerf, no one really runs dungeons at all. Doesn’t really inspire confidence.

A sub-argument here is that raids have exclusive rewards, in minis, skins, and legendary armor. I won’t spend too much time justifying exclusive skins and minis, because a part of guild wars 2 endgame is all about skins, and game modes have exclusive skins as well. The real fight is about legendary armor.

So the initial response is that legendaries have the same stats as ascended. And that’s a powerful response, because it means raids are not required to get the most powerful gear in the game. But then what about stat changing? And the response is: what about it? You can change ascended stats in the mystic forge. And stat changing is mostly useless anyway, because you can’t change sigils and runes.

So it’s mostly a prestige item. It shows that you’ve invested time in Guild Wars 2 — whether it through pve (weapons), pvp or fractals (backpiece), or raids (armor).

And most raiders aren’t against alternate ways to get legendary armor (eventually). They’d just rather not see their accomplishments diminished. As I’m sure pvp’ers wouldn’t want every ruby t1 player to easily get the legendary backpiece.

So, in summary there are three main arguments against easy modes: 1) it’s a waste of developer resources 2) rewards likely won’t be balanced, and 3) it’s ok to have legendary armor as a prestige award.

Let’s try to focus the arguments here.

thank you Absurdo for your reply, your 3 points are totally true. But in this topic, some player think that :
1) it will take an afternoon to developp easy mode raid
2) it’s easy to balance rewards, even if, as you wrote, anet had plenty of fails in this domain
3) in gw2, it’s not ok to have legendary locked behind hard core content, since a minority of people will have it.

actually, i think these threads would automotically disappear if legendary armors could be rewarded in pvp and wvw…

Hypairion.9210:

thank you Absurdo for your reply, your 3 points are totally true. But in this topic, some player think that :
1) it will take an afternoon to developp easy mode raid
2) it’s easy to balance rewards, even if, as you wrote, anet had plenty of fails in this domain
3) in gw2, it’s not ok to have legendary locked behind hard core content, since a minority of people will have it.

actually, i think these threads would automotically disappear if legendary armors could be rewarded in pvp and wvw…

1. This point is absurd. The fact that people (or rather one person, parroting it over and over again) who aren’t game developers and don’t work for ArenaNet could judge a project of this scope as a days’ work is laughable. You can’t copy/paste massive chunks of game code and change a few values and have a working product ready to ship. Gaile already commented on how stupid this notion is and it needs to go away.

2. That’s a fair point. With trial and error they may get it right, but how much damage would be done before that happens? In the past its taken months or years for Anet to retune rewards. Then they overcompensate the other way and take months and years to fix that.

3. Legendary is already locked behind hardcore content. It’ll take me another year, at minimum, to finish the PvP backpiece. That’s because I PvP casually, and I’m 100% fine with that. Because I don’t deserve to have it as soon as someone who goes tryhard esports in PvP. Why is the same notion so terrible for raids? What’s wrong with it simply taking you longer than the people who raid every day?

Gene Archer.8560:

maddoctor.2738:

I can’t play all of them if you add a hard gear check. I’d need to spend even more time (and money) to gear them all and have them ready for the Raid. We are not talking about one or two characters, more like 9.
.

And so to be able to raid with all 9, you would have to do what is necessary, and gear them up.

I second STIHL’s proposal. If these “raiders” are going to oppose difficulty settings and the like, then there absolutely needs to be a hard gear check, instead to prevent these threads in the future. If people aren’t willing to put in the work to gear their characters, then they clearly don’t actually want to raid. That is what all the raiders have been saying after all. To “put in the work” to be “worthy” of raids.

So, let’s have a hard gear check and maddoctor can put in the work to gear his nine characters.

None of us need care that it makes it harder for him to raid, since he doesn’t care that the current setup makes it hard for others to raid. It’s a perfectly fair and valid proposal for STIHL to raise. Kudos to them.

Thank you very much.

maddoctor.2738:

Gene Archer.8560:

I second STIHL’s proposal. If these “raiders” are going to oppose difficulty settings and the like, then there absolutely needs to be a hard gear check, instead to prevent these threads in the future.

Do you think that would prevent these threads from appearing? The next thread you will get is “please remove hard gear checks from Raids”

Sure they would, when was the last time you saw “please remove Agony Resist from level 100 Fractal” ?

STIHL.2489:

Gene Archer.8560:

maddoctor.2738:

I can’t play all of them if you add a hard gear check. I’d need to spend even more time (and money) to gear them all and have them ready for the Raid. We are not talking about one or two characters, more like 9.
.

And so to be able to raid with all 9, you would have to do what is necessary, and gear them up.

I second STIHL’s proposal. If these “raiders” are going to oppose difficulty settings and the like, then there absolutely needs to be a hard gear check, instead to prevent these threads in the future. If people aren’t willing to put in the work to gear their characters, then they clearly don’t actually want to raid. That is what all the raiders have been saying after all. To “put in the work” to be “worthy” of raids.

So, let’s have a hard gear check and maddoctor can put in the work to gear his nine characters.

None of us need care that it makes it harder for him to raid, since he doesn’t care that the current setup makes it hard for others to raid. It’s a perfectly fair and valid proposal for STIHL to raise. Kudos to them.

Thank you very much.

maddoctor.2738:

Gene Archer.8560:

I second STIHL’s proposal. If these “raiders” are going to oppose difficulty settings and the like, then there absolutely needs to be a hard gear check, instead to prevent these threads in the future.

Do you think that would prevent these threads from appearing? The next thread you will get is “please remove hard gear checks from Raids”

Sure they would, when was the last time you saw “please remove Agony Resist from level 100 Fractal” ?

Again, a gear requirement for raids is a petty response. It is not a constructive suggestion.

Speaking personally, I would be ok with getting rid of agony resist altogether. It’s confusing for new players, and an artificial gate on progression. I’d much rather have a system where you could only do a certain range within your personal reward level. But that’s another topic, and doesn’t really bear on easy mode raids. There is no hard gear check with raids.

Absurdo.8309:

Let’s try to focus the arguments here.

The only real “Argument” here is “Are the Raids End-Game”

It’e been established, they the Developers have Intended them to be Such. As such it’s was poor mechanic to allow an “In-Progress” character/toon to even enter them. They would have been much better served to have a Hard Gear Check walking in, as that would eliminated any notion as to who should and should not even be trying this.

A Dungeon/Raid that is in fact “End-Game” should be reserved only a completed Character. Originally, I had thought to have the raid check against Elite Spec , Mastery and Gear.

But mastery is Account bound, so that would not stop an In-Progress character from entering the raid.

Elite Spec, may not be the most ideal spec for the raid, so forcing players to equip it, seemed unjust, however, since most Raid Builds do in fact require Elite Spec to be optimal, this is not a bad idea.

So a Simple Gear Check seemed the most easy and honest way to approach this. And lets be real, Ascended is not difficult to acquire, anyone can get it, all it takes is a little time, some mats and some gold.

So it makes no sense that anyone would who is for the difficulty to remain to object to this being at very least the basic cap to even walk in.

What I don’t understand, is why the sudden turn about to not want to rise to the occasion, to meet the challenge, and look to this a goal to strive for, I mean really, if you expect others to do that, why would you not want to do it as well?

Absurdo.8309:

Again, a gear requirement for raids is a petty response. It is not a constructive suggestion.

It;s not petty at all, It’s simply wanting an Honest Bar that needs to be met to enter the raid.

Excuse me, but, why is someone who was once against doing anything to make the raid more accessible, suddenly regurgitating Ohoni’s arguments ad nauseam?

Didn’t you already argue against making things to easy, why the sudden change of heart to allow In-Progress and non-optimal toons into the Raid?

STIHL.2489:

Absurdo.8309:

Again, a gear requirement for raids is a petty response. It is not a constructive suggestion.

It;s not petty at all, It’s simply wanting an Honest Bar that needs to be met to enter the raid.

Excuse me, but, why is someone who was once against doing anything to make the raid more accessible, suddenly regurgitating Ohoni’s arguments ad nauseam?

Didn’t you already argue against making things to easy, why the sudden change of heart to allow In-Progress and non-optimal toons into the Raid?

Yes, I don’t think raids should be easy. No, I don’t think we need some sort of external requirement to enter raids. The content itself serves as this requirement.

If people want to try to do raids in rare armor, or on level 70s, who am I to stop them? If they beat it (however unlikely) then it’s quite the accomplishment.

I would also note that no other content has the type of requirement you speak of. Not even fractals – it upscales you to 80, and it’s possible to avoid most forms of agony.

I don’t want to be accusatory, but it seems like you’re strawmanning the “no easy mode” side. Which isn’t really constructive.

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t want to be accusatory, but it seems like you’re strawmanning the “no easy mode” side. Which isn’t really constructive.

Not at all.

In fact, at one time, I was under the illusion that Raids should have been more Accessable, mainly because I thought they were supposed to just be “Content” if you will “80th level Content” akin to any other content of that level range. just a 10 man 80th level Dungeon, like Honor of the Waves just with 10 people.

But then I paused and asked a very powerful question, one that would set my next move. See, I asked “Are Raids Supposed to be End-Game Content” and the answer was informative and eye opening.

From the Mouth of the Developers themselves.

“Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2.”

This changed everything for me. I realized my mistake, and I also realized that, their biggest flaw in this design was to allow people the Illusion they could enter with a 70th level player and have even the slimiest, most remotest chance to survive. That the reason why we are having this discussion at all, is because Anet failed to set a Hard Requirement to enter, and thus deceiving people that this is intended to be available to them.

It’s Not

Nor was it ever intended, and that was their flaw.

Difficulty is not enough, that just makes people bitter, that just makes people feel resentment, and that is what starts these hundreds if not in the thousands by now. Posts.

The flaw was they failed so say clearly “You Must Meet this Requirement To Enter”

Had they put that in, had they made it clear that nothing short of a complete character was going to even be able to do this, there would be no illusions about what the Raid was intended to do and be.

It would have been easy on everyone, no one would have to feel bad about kicking someone for not being optimal, or not fully prepared, they need to have their “Bane Resist” to play this dungeon.

When they get that, then they can play.

It sets a goal for everyone, lets them know clearly if they are ready or not.

Upleveling in fractals just starts topics like this: Why you kick me?

Raids really needed that “Meet this Bar to Enter” to ensure everyone and anyone knew exactly what this content was, what it’s intention was, and where they stood with their ability to do it.

In the end, I firmly believe had they put in a Hard Gear Check, this topic and others like it, never would have existed. What I don’t get, is why you don’t see that as well?

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t want to be accusatory, but it seems like you’re strawmanning the “no easy mode” side. Which isn’t really constructive.

Minor Note: If you feel that way, maybe you might want to rethink your stand on the issue of Difficulty. Just saying on that.

STIHL.2489:

Difficulty is not enough, that just makes people bitter, that just makes people feel resentment, and that is what starts these hundreds if not in the thousands by now. Posts.

Why is difficulty not enough? You never cared to explain that. You really think that if they added another mechanic that prevented you from entering the Raid (like AR) we wouldn’t have these posts?

STIHL.2489:

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t want to be accusatory, but it seems like you’re strawmanning the “no easy mode” side. Which isn’t really constructive.

Not at all.

In fact, at one time, I was under the illusion that Raids should have been more Accessable, mainly because I thought they were supposed to just be “Content” if you will “80th level Content” akin to any other content of that level range. just a 10 man 80th level Dungeon, like Honor of the Waves just with 10 people.

But then I paused and asked a very powerful question, one that would set my next move. See, I asked “Are Raids Supposed to be End-Game Content” and the answer was informative and eye opening.

From the Mouth of the Developers themselves.

“Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2.”

This changed everything for me. I realized my mistake, and I also realized that, their biggest flaw in this design was to allow people the Illusion they could enter with a 70th level player and have even the slimiest, most remotest chance to survive. That the reason why we are having this discussion at all, is because Anet failed to set a Hard Requirement to enter, and thus deceiving people that this is intended to be available to them.

It’s Not

Nor was it ever intended, and that was their flaw.

Difficulty is not enough, that just makes people bitter, that just makes people feel resentment, and that is what starts these hundreds if not in the thousands by now. Posts.

The flaw was they failed so say clearly “You Must Meet this Requirement To Enter”

Had they put that in, had they made it clear that nothing short of a complete character was going to even be able to do this, there would be no illusions about what the Raid was intended to do and be.

It would have been easy on everyone, no one would have to feel bad about kicking someone for not being optimal, or not fully prepared, they need to have their “Bane Resist” to play this dungeon.

When they get that, then they can play.

It sets a goal for everyone, lets them know clearly if they are ready or not.

Upleveling in fractals just starts topics like this: Why you kick me?

Raids really needed that “Meet this Bar to Enter” to ensure everyone and anyone knew exactly what this content was, what it’s intention was, and where they stood with their ability to do it.

In the end, I firmly believe had they put in a Hard Gear Check, this topic and others like it, never would have existed. What I don’t get, is why you don’t see that as well?

Alright, I see your point of view. It’s an interesting one.

Still, I don’t think a hard gear check is required. Really, the content serves as that check.

A hard gear check also allows for less experimentation. There was a very interesting run a while back where the group tried to survive as long as possible in VG enrage while still killing the boss. I think they lasted about 40 minutes. I’m not sure these types of runs would be possible with a hard gear check.

This type of hard gear check is also not in other parts of the game. The new maps are meant for level 80s, but that doesn’t stop a level 3 from getting there. That also doesn’t stop them from instantly dying from any attack. But I don’t see low levels complaining about the new maps.

As a small aside, my guild once had a new character race from LA to the gates of arah. It was really fun. But it wouldn’t be possible if cursed shore had a hard level check. I don’t want to put the same restriction on raid fun runs.

In the end, mandating a hard gear check seems like a drastic solution to fix a self-solvable problem. You’ll quickly discover, from the encounter or other squad members, whether your gear is good enough to raid. And then you get the proper gear. I don’t think this needs to be built into the system, as it would presumably be a burden for players that are already properly geared (by mandating something else), and it would eliminate fun runs and experimentation.

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t think this needs to be built into the system, as it would presumably be a burden for players that are already properly geared (by mandating something else), and it would eliminate fun runs and experimentation.

I would imagine a player that was already geared, would have no problems passing a Gear Check.

Also there is no shortage of other content for everyone to have “fun runs” and casually goof off and “experiment” with, but an “Elite Raid” should not be among them.

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t think this needs to be built into the system, as it would presumably be a burden for players that are already properly geared (by mandating something else), and it would eliminate fun runs and experimentation.

I would imagine a player that was already geared, would have no problems passing a Gear Check.

Also there is no shortage of other content for everyone to have “fun runs” and casually goof off and “experiment” with, but an “Elite Raid” should not be among them.

A player who is already geared might want to shockingly change his build to something else.

Why can’t someone do a fun run in the Raid? Or experiment in the Raid?

maddoctor.2738:

Why can’t someone do a fun run in the Raid? Or experiment in the Raid?

Might to explain that one to Ohoni, after all you’re the one that’s been telling them that it has to be difficult because it’s a raid.

Sorry, but now you are sounding like a casual wanting a free ride, and a easy pass.

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t think this needs to be built into the system, as it would presumably be a burden for players that are already properly geared (by mandating something else), and it would eliminate fun runs and experimentation.

I would imagine a player that was already geared, would have no problems passing a Gear Check.

Also there is no shortage of other content for everyone to have “fun runs” and casually goof off and “experiment” with, but an “Elite Raid” should not be among them.

Since it’s instanced content, I have no problem with 10 people goofing off in a raid.

As to the type of gear check, I’m not sure what you are imagining. Fractals, for example, requires ascended gear with infusions. Ascended gear is not required to beat the raid (although it is helpful).

Regardless, we’ve veered off the topic of easy mode raids, which we both apparently agree is unnecessary.

Absurdo.8309:

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t think this needs to be built into the system, as it would presumably be a burden for players that are already properly geared (by mandating something else), and it would eliminate fun runs and experimentation.

I would imagine a player that was already geared, would have no problems passing a Gear Check.

Also there is no shortage of other content for everyone to have “fun runs” and casually goof off and “experiment” with, but an “Elite Raid” should not be among them.

Since it’s instanced content, I have no problem with 10 people goofing off in a raid.

As to the type of gear check, I’m not sure what you are imagining. Fractals, for example, requires ascended gear with infusions. Ascended gear is not required to beat the raid (although it is helpful).

Regardless, we’ve veered off the topic of easy mode raids, which we both apparently agree is unnecessary.

So, what you are saying, is in short, you don’t want something put in that would interfere with your fun and your accessibility.

Sorry man, Can’t agree with you on that one. I think if you go into a raid to goof off, you should die, swiftly, painfully, and humiliatingly.

Absurdo.8309:

Regardless, we’ve veered off the topic of easy mode raids, which we both apparently agree is unnecessary.

Nope. I think that unless there is a Hard Gear Check, making them un-disputable End-Game content then they should be Open to the Public, Easy Mode and all.

As it stands you are whining about a gear check, because it might make it less fun for you, why should anyone care about your fun, when you don’t care about anyone else?

Anyone but me kinda shocked by the reaction to wanting a Gear Check. I mean it’s the Casuals that are saying “YAH! Put it in” while all the hardcore gamers that were all about keeping difficult and elite are suddenly doing a 180, and whining about some nominal requirement.

My Intention was not flip this, or make a straw-man out of it, I honestly wanted a Gear Check, to Establish the raid as End-Game, but the responses by the elitist seem to have turned it into such, unintentional as it was, it’s still none the less hilarious.

Someone want to explain to be how that happened? I would have thought that the elite players would have backed-up and rallied behind a gear check to ensure anyone not fully prepared could not enter.

Can you all explain to be Why the change of heart?

OK so you want gear check on raid ? Why not, at least i know you wont polute my group then ;-)
All i see is players not happy with the current situation, but not wanting to adapt and that didnt want to propose realistic solutions…(with anet current situation of low man power)

Hypairion.9210:

OK so you want gear check on raid ? Why not, at least i know you wont polute my group then ;-)
All i see is players not happy with the current situation, but not wanting to adapt and that didnt want to propose realistic solutions…(with anet current situation of low man power)

It’s not your place to denote what Anet can or can’t do with the manpower they have, or how they can use it, since unless you work at Anet, given your lack of an Anet Employee Emblem next your name, You don’t know what resources or funds they have, or what they can do with them.

Many people put out ideas, across these hundreds of pages, from a Story Mode, to simply a minor variable in timing and damage. There have been many idea, “Just deal with it” is not one of them.

I simply suggested they they Either make a Gear Check or Easy Mode. As leaving things as they are, is not going to resolve or solve anything.

Also, what makes you think I could not pass a Full Ascended Gear Check, did you really think I would suggest something I could not pass?

STIHL.2489:

Anyone but me kinda shocked by the reaction to wanting a Gear Check. I mean it’s the Casuals that are saying “YAH! Put it in” while all the hardcore gamers that were all about keeping difficult and elite are suddenly doing a 180, and whining about some nominal requirement.

My Intention was not flip this, or make a straw-man out of it, I honestly wanted a Gear Check, to Establish the raid as End-Game, but the responses by the elitist seem to have turned it into such, unintentional as it was, it’s still none the less hilarious.

Someone want to explain to be how that happened? I would have thought that the elite players would have backed-up and rallied behind a gear check to ensure anyone not fully prepared could not enter.

Can you all explain to be Why the change of heart?

I’m shocked that you want it. Point me to more posts, but I only see 1 person agreeing with you and it seems more out of spite to the “hardcore” than thinking it would be a good system.

The reason why you are getting a backlash from people who think the raids are fine as is, is because they have a better understanding of the “difficulty” of the raids. Unlike most MMOs, GW2’s raids are not gear focused (the only boss that is somewhat a dps check is Gorseval, all other bosses should end with plenty of time left on the timer, particularly wing 2), rather the raids are focused on the mechanics. This means that once you have the boss mechanics down, it is much easier to approach on different classes (and honestly the rotation on most classes is very simple). You would propose a forced gear-check on people who already have the necessary understanding of the boss. In fact, agony is one of the worst parts of fractals (or at least was until the update destroyed them), simply because even if you were a better player you could get soft-capped.

What you are proposing is a solution which harms players who like alts, raid experimentation (if you don’t like forced metas then this becomes worse for you), and creates a forced gate for good players for what is honestly not even an apparent problem.

Also, your system is flawed in how you get this new “agony resistance”, as gearing up doesn’t equal prepared for raids. If you wanted a more viable solution to this you could set it up so that the “Forsaken Thicket Mastery Line” plays more of a role in raids and can only be leveled through raiding (or to unlock skill X, you need to beat the boss before it), as this is also account-wide. Even then, the solution I posted is bad because it limits organized group progression (friend misses a day and can’t raid with everyone else). The idea that people can’t understand raids are supposed to be challenging, so we should fix that through an obtrusive system is odd (and not even really a problem).

They dont have enough dev for legendary, so they dont have enough People to cater you. Accept it and move on…
Actually i dont mind an easy mode, when the next wing will be up. Just no legendary armor, because it should stay gated behind normal raid. And if the easy mode trully learn People raid mecanisms then it’s good.

And good luck passing my check simply with a gear check…i can’t count the number of people i kicked of my dungeon / fractal runs, even in full ascended zerk or viper. Gear doesn’t equal skill

Which Story Mode could Satisfy.

Possibly, so long as the Legendary armor rewards from it were not too low.

Done it? Or hid behind others that actually did it?

As much as you’ve done it, I’ve done it. Stop it with the elitist attitude.

I’d redirect you to threads about mordrem wolves and terragrifs if I could find them.

Yeah, they were a hassle, but Snipers and Rollers and various other HoT enemies are significantly worse, and I could direct you to those posts if I cared to bother.

LFG solves the problem of accessibility. The “significant barriers” you are talking about are irrelevant.

Again, no.

You are inventing a problem from outside this thread and declaring a solution to it, rather than at all addressing the problems actually raised in this thread. You may not agree that the problems raised in this thread are problems, but that does not give you license to wander off topic all you like.

Fact is, they are changing the LFG, fact is they are going to revisit dungeons (whatever that means), fact is they are going to solve the swamps of the mists issue. In the end directly or indirectly they are going to great lengths to improve raid accessibility. That those solutions aren’t what you want is irrelevant. They are working towards making raids accessible, and that’s a fact.

None of that has anything to do with making raids more accessible to people for whom they are not current accessible. All those changes would do is make that content more convenient for people who already find them to be accessible.

No. You asked for a free armor. You asked for a difficulty doable by people in non-min maxed exotics with a couple of rares, that’s the same as getting it handed to you for free.

Ah, I understand the confusion. You do not understand what the word “free” means. Never mind.

I proposed solutions to the actual problem, called Raid Accessibility, which this thread also tries to address. That’s the actual problem and as explained above, they ARE working to fix it.

Explain how anything you suggest would address anything mentioned in the OP. This is NOT a thread about “raid accessibility,” that is YOUR term. This is a thread about raid DIFFICULTY, as in the challenge factor of the raid once you are already in it with ten other people. LFG plays zero role in that.

There’s no need to punish players for liking content. It makes your position look petty.

And yet you’re constantly seeking to punish players for liking easier content by actively preventing them from getting easy-mode raids.

actually, i think these threads would automotically disappear if legendary armors could be rewarded in pvp and wvw…

Nope, there would still need to be a PvE option. I do advocate that they be available in PvP and WvW, because those players deserve them too, but that’s not where I’d want to go to get mine.

Hypairion.9210:

And good luck passing my check simply with a gear check.

Then it’s not a gear check. and I’m not worried.

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

Why can’t someone do a fun run in the Raid? Or experiment in the Raid?

Might to explain that one to Ohoni, after all you’re the one that’s been telling them that it has to be difficult because it’s a raid.

Sorry, but now you are sounding like a casual wanting a free ride, and a easy pass.

What’s this about No fun allowed ?

I’m sure there’s more and i’m sure i could keep going…..

Point is these people learned the raids instead of sitting on these forums all day complaining about something that really doesn’t need developer attention.

Oh and one last one for anyone complaining about a “Hard Gear Check”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DFPFQCc47Q

GoldenTruth.2853:

STIHL.2489:

Anyone but me kinda shocked by the reaction to wanting a Gear Check. I mean it’s the Casuals that are saying “YAH! Put it in” while all the hardcore gamers that were all about keeping difficult and elite are suddenly doing a 180, and whining about some nominal requirement.

My Intention was not flip this, or make a straw-man out of it, I honestly wanted a Gear Check, to Establish the raid as End-Game, but the responses by the elitist seem to have turned it into such, unintentional as it was, it’s still none the less hilarious.

Someone want to explain to be how that happened? I would have thought that the elite players would have backed-up and rallied behind a gear check to ensure anyone not fully prepared could not enter.

Can you all explain to be Why the change of heart?

I’m shocked that you want it.

Ok find the fault in my logic.

STIHL.2489:

In fact, at one time, I was under the illusion that Raids should have been more Accessable, mainly because I thought they were supposed to just be “Content” if you will “80th level Content” akin to any other content of that level range. just a 10 man 80th level Dungeon, like Honor of the Waves just with 10 people.

But then I paused and asked a very powerful question, one that would set my next move. See, I asked “Are Raids Supposed to be End-Game Content” and the answer was informative and eye opening.

From the Mouth of the Developers themselves.

“Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2.”

This changed everything for me. I realized my mistake, and I also realized that, their biggest flaw in this design was to allow people the Illusion they could enter with a 70th level player and have even the slimiest, most remotest chance to survive. That the reason why we are having this discussion at all, is because Anet failed to set a Hard Requirement to enter, and thus deceiving people that this is intended to be available to them.

It’s Not

Nor was it ever intended, and that was their flaw.

Difficulty is not enough, that just makes people bitter, that just makes people feel resentment, and that is what starts these hundreds if not in the thousands by now. Posts.

The flaw was they failed so say clearly “You Must Meet this Requirement To Enter”

Had they put that in, had they made it clear that nothing short of a complete character was going to even be able to do this, there would be no illusions about what the Raid was intended to do and be.

It would have been easy on everyone, no one would have to feel bad about kicking someone for not being optimal, or not fully prepared, they need to have their “Bane Resist” to play this dungeon.

When they get that, then they can play.

It sets a goal for everyone, lets them know clearly if they are ready or not.

Upleveling in fractals just starts topics like this: Why you kick me?

Raids really needed that “Meet this Bar to Enter” to ensure everyone and anyone knew exactly what this content was, what it’s intention was, and where they stood with their ability to do it.

In the end, I firmly believe had they put in a Hard Gear Check, this topic and others like it, never would have existed. What I don’t get, is why you don’t see that as well?

Here is how I see it.

Either there needs to be Check, or there needs to be an Easy Mode.

Leaving things as they are is not a solution.

Point is these people learned the raids instead of sitting on these forums all day complaining about something that really doesn’t need developer attention.

The point is that different people enjoy different types of experiences, and while I don’t doubt for a second that these people, and likely a lot of you, have had a TON of fun playing raids in their current form, I am also absolutely positive that I will never be capable of enjoying those same raids the way you do. I am just wired differently than that, I do not enjoy overcoming high challenge as much as you do, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The only problem here is your continued inability to understand that not every person is identical.

You know what, I’m going to ask for a raise of hands on this one.

How many of you guys believe that if I, personally, were to spend the same amount of time you have playing raids, that if I put as much time and effort into them as you have, that I would come to enjoy them in the same way that you do?

And how many of you understand that this is not the case but do not actually care whether players like me enjoy raids? I’d just like to know where each of you stand on this one.

Ohoni.6057:

Point is these people learned the raids instead of sitting on these forums all day complaining about something that really doesn’t need developer attention.

The point is that different people enjoy different types of experiences, and while I don’t doubt for a second that these people, and likely a lot of you, have had a TON of fun playing raids in their current form, I am also absolutely positive that I will never be capable of enjoying those same raids the way you do. I am just wired differently than that, I do not enjoy overcoming high challenge as much as you do, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The only problem here is your continued inability to understand that not every person is identical.

Not sure if salty or just generally making blanket statements because ?
Also, not sure how you can say any of that based on your 20 minutes of raiding experience.

Seriously, you want the rewards ?
You want to play your own way ?

Make yourself a group, tell people you’re running X build with X gear and go have yourself a casual good time.

Ohoni.6057:

You know what, I’m going to ask for a raise of hands on this one.

How many of you guys believe that if I, personally, were to spend the same amount of time you have playing raids, that if I put as much time and effort into them as you have, that I would come to enjoy them in the same way that you do?

And how many of you understand that this is not the case but do not actually care whether players like me enjoy raids? I’d just like to know where each of you stand on this one.

One thing I have learned, is that you can’t make a player enjoy a Style of Play that simply does not Attract them.

I believe that first you have to want to raid, want to do that content, before you can ever come to enjoy it.

However, I also know that it is within yours and my ability to raid even in it’s current state, but that does not change the fact that I also know if your motive to do this content is simply for a longer reach goal, IE: getting a collection part for Legendary Armor. It would not matter how many times you did it, you will never come to enjoy it, it will be something you will suffer though, and the second you get that, you will never raid again, and it will in negatively impact your desire to continue with the game at all.

So, it’s not for me that I say anything, it is for players like you.

Not sure if salty or just generally making blanket statements because ?
Also, not sure how you can say any of that based on your 20 minutes of raiding experience.

More like about six hours or so in total, combined with 2000+ hours in this game, and tens of thousands of hours in other games. I think I have a better idea of what experiences I do and do not enjoy than you do. If I see a stovetop, and it’s glowing red, and I wave my hand over it, and it feels kinda warm, and I press my hand against it, and it starts to hurt, I do not need to leave it there for another few hours to know that it likely isn’t going to improve the experience for me any time soon. Sure, eventually the nerves will burn off and it won’t hurt as much, but on balance I think I’d rather not keep my hand on the stove in the first place.

Make yourself a group, tell people you’re running X build with X gear and go have yourself a casual good time.

That’s all I’m asking for.

It would not matter how many times you did it, you will never come to enjoy it, it will be something you will suffer though, and the second you get that, you will never raid again, and it will in negatively impact your desire to continue with the game at all.

That’s all I want people to understand, that they are not doing me some service to try and convince me to raid on their terms, that it will never work out to my overall benefit for me to raid like they raid, and that what they are in fact doing is being very selfish, in trying to project their feelings and motivations on me, so that they can do what they want without having to feel bad about people who want something different.

STIHL.2489:

GoldenTruth.2853:

STIHL.2489:

Anyone but me kinda shocked by the reaction to wanting a Gear Check. I mean it’s the Casuals that are saying “YAH! Put it in” while all the hardcore gamers that were all about keeping difficult and elite are suddenly doing a 180, and whining about some nominal requirement.

My Intention was not flip this, or make a straw-man out of it, I honestly wanted a Gear Check, to Establish the raid as End-Game, but the responses by the elitist seem to have turned it into such, unintentional as it was, it’s still none the less hilarious.

Someone want to explain to be how that happened? I would have thought that the elite players would have backed-up and rallied behind a gear check to ensure anyone not fully prepared could not enter.

Can you all explain to be Why the change of heart?

I’m shocked that you want it.

Ok find the fault in my logic.

STIHL.2489:

In fact, at one time, I was under the illusion that Raids should have been more Accessable, mainly because I thought they were supposed to just be “Content” if you will “80th level Content” akin to any other content of that level range. just a 10 man 80th level Dungeon, like Honor of the Waves just with 10 people.

But then I paused and asked a very powerful question, one that would set my next move. See, I asked “Are Raids Supposed to be End-Game Content” and the answer was informative and eye opening.

From the Mouth of the Developers themselves.

“Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2.”

This changed everything for me. I realized my mistake, and I also realized that, their biggest flaw in this design was to allow people the Illusion they could enter with a 70th level player and have even the slimiest, most remotest chance to survive. That the reason why we are having this discussion at all, is because Anet failed to set a Hard Requirement to enter, and thus deceiving people that this is intended to be available to them.

It’s Not

Nor was it ever intended, and that was their flaw.

Difficulty is not enough, that just makes people bitter, that just makes people feel resentment, and that is what starts these hundreds if not in the thousands by now. Posts.

The flaw was they failed so say clearly “You Must Meet this Requirement To Enter”

Had they put that in, had they made it clear that nothing short of a complete character was going to even be able to do this, there would be no illusions about what the Raid was intended to do and be.

It would have been easy on everyone, no one would have to feel bad about kicking someone for not being optimal, or not fully prepared, they need to have their “Bane Resist” to play this dungeon.

When they get that, then they can play.

It sets a goal for everyone, lets them know clearly if they are ready or not.

Upleveling in fractals just starts topics like this: Why you kick me?

Raids really needed that “Meet this Bar to Enter” to ensure everyone and anyone knew exactly what this content was, what it’s intention was, and where they stood with their ability to do it.

In the end, I firmly believe had they put in a Hard Gear Check, this topic and others like it, never would have existed. What I don’t get, is why you don’t see that as well?

Here is how I see it.

Either there needs to be Check, or there needs to be an Easy Mode.

Leaving things as they are is not a solution.

Myself and others have already discussed the fault in your logic. You are attempting to solve a minor problem in a way that would cause much more problematic ones. In addition your version of a “gear check” does not elicit skill at all, therefore, the true “check” would remain the same as it is now (insights/eternal), just with all the downsides of your suggestion.

Raids aren’t some new thing that only GW2 has done. When asked “what’s the hardest PvE content” the majority of people playing theme park MMOs will say “raids”. A pointless hard check does not need to be in place for something that simple word-of-mouth would do, particularly when it is based on something that is fairly commonplace in MMOs.

I didn’t go into HoT and it suddenly said “sorry this area is harder than you are used to come back in full exotics or better”, and people certainly aren’t given the heads up that Triple Trouble is harder than Megadestroyer. The problem you are trying to address honestly seems like a non-problem to me (and apparently others based on responses to you), and you are the first person I have ever seen bring it up (with a “fix” that would cause many more problems).