But will cause the destruction through secondary effects with a beaming smile on your face… (I will have to ask people to scroll up to see my list of reasons Easy Mode is a bad idea – while scrolling please take note of people saying “i never even wanted these raids and do not want more,” these people asking for raid changes want them dead and it occassionally slips out their fingers, do not believe them to be benign)
There are certainly people who have no personal interest in raids, and would not personally mind if they vanished. People feel the same way about PvP, WvW, JPs, Adventures, even open world content. That is not unusual. The point is, I don’t want raids to die, and I don’t think most people do, so long as they cause no harm. Right now they are causing harm, by locking out content that could otherwise belong to everyone. Resolve that harm, and people can continue to live and let live. Insist that this harm MUST remain in place, and the alternatives shift from “provide us an alternate form of raiding” to “fine, then just remove raiding and focus that content elsewhere.”
I am in the exact same boat as you and I’ve raided less in GW2 than you have, but I’m ‘peacefully coexisting’. I’m probably more at risk than you are because I frequently WvW and other people having trinkets that are completely inaccessible to me puts them at a very well-defined, actual advantage over me.
That’s fine, but you do not represent everyone. Whether you personally choose to coexist with the current form of raiding has no impact on whether the community as a whole continues to coexist with the current form of raiding.
That’s fine, but you do not represent everyone. Whether you personally choose to coexist with the current form of raiding has no impact on whether the community as a whole continues to coexist with the current form of raiding.
That’s not what you said. You said you want to be able to coexist peacefully with raids. I am coexisting peacefully in raids and I am in a worse position as you are. Therefore you should be capable of coexisting peacefully in raids.
You said it yourself: you are choosing to not coexist peacefully with raids.
And as usual, you != the community as a whole.
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
Raids as a, lets say game mode, are by default something that requires a higher amount of skill, communication and concentration and are the most difficult content a game has to offer PvE-wise.
What you are trying to do is making a whole game mode adapt to you instead of adapting to said game mode or simply letting it be. This is completely nonsensical.Again, I have no interest in causing the game mode to adapt. The existing mode can stay 100% exactly as it is. No adaptation whatsoever.
What I’m asking for is merely an alternative, something that provides the elements that I believe most players would enjoy, while culling out the elements that most players do not. You’d be right to be upset if I were suggesting that the result would be the ONLY raid left in the game, it’s not the version you want; but I’m not asking for that, the version you enjoy would be left alone. This would be an alternative, for people who can’t enjoy the version you enjoy, and one that they can play without harming the version that you do enjoy.
i.e. making it adapt by adding an easy mode to something that should not need an easy mode since it is supposed to be difficult.
I’m aware you want a second variant of the raid, an easier one, but I simply do not think it fits into this type of content, especially when every other type of PvE-content is easily conquerable by everyone.
The only way an easy mode would ever make it into the game should be without any rewards or progress for anything related to raids whatsoever, so that it simply serves as training ground for the actual raid.
No. Exclusive access to those rewards is not a part of the raid. The raid is about the challenging content involved. You may not like to share, but it’s something they teach in preschool now, as an adult, you’re expected to deal with it.
Can you get the special rewards offered inside the raid somewhere else? No? Guessed so. The rewards are raid-exclusive and given out for conquering said challenging content. Pretty simple concept, easy to grasp, easy to understand why an easy mode would either need no rewards or new rewards which then can also drop in normal/hard/whatever mode since it’s the more difficult variant.
You’re also taught as child that you don’t get everything thrown at you and that you have to learn/work for things you want, but this seems to be a lost wisdom these days.
As for your point regarding selling; yes, this is some sort of problem. However, if someone buys the raid this also means that, at the same time, there is a group of people who do these bosses with less manpower than you are supposed to have (if running with 1-2 player less is necessarily more difficult is another thing)
Also, to be honest, I don’t really care much about the value of the rewards found in raid or anywhere else in this game. If I did, I would’ve stopped playing GW2 forever a long time ago since there’s pretty much nothing in this game which has actual value in terms of showing skill. What I simply don’t like is how many people act as if they’re entitled to get a free ride through raids along with rewards. People who buy raids at least have the “decency” to pay others to carry them through, indirectly paying for the rewards and directly paying for the additional effort the group goes through.
If you are interested in the raid encounters but not in the difficulty associated with them, you are not as interested in raids as you might think. What you are interested in are the rewards, not doing the encounters. If that is the case, please just do content you enjoy and buy raids so that you can get your shinies.
Training wheels for raids? Well, maybe. But most raids are set up to stack mechanics until it gets progressively harder and harder. That is, the first phase of each fight is the training mode.
And yet numerous people can pass the first phase and not immediately pass the second, so clearly if it does train, it does so poorly. Some people enjoy failfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfail-succeed, others do not, and would decide early on that this process is not for them. An easy mode allows them to succeed relatively early on, and to learn from their successes rather than from their failures. This may not matter to you, but just accept as a fact that it matters to people who are not you.
An easier path to legendary? I think this is why people really want an easy mode. And, well, it’s not the best argument. “Let’s devote resources to develop an entirely different game mode, just so some players can get a tier of gear that provides no stat bonuses, is incredibly expensive, and for a skin that they don’t even know what is looks like.” This is why the legendary weapon team disbanded.
If the Legendary armor is interesting enough for raiders to care about then it’s interesting enough for non-raiders to care about. The argument is either that they should make it available to all players or to NO players, there is no valid argument that only raiders should have it.
To provide for easier content (that some players find more enjoyable)? This is already in the game – Fractals and dungeons. There is no difference between a 5-man easy mode raid and a dungeon. The only argument I’ve heard is “But I don’t get to fight sabetha!” Well, an easy mode would not be “sabetha” because it wouldn’t have the same mechanics. And we don’t have easy mode of other bosses, like lupi or the aether path foreman.
And yet there are easy mode versions of Mai Trin, Jade Maw, Thaumanova Anomaly, Archdiviner, etc. I beat Lupi the other night on my second try ever, he’s not all that hard, certainly not compared to Vale Guardian. Maybe you see no use in having an easy mode Sabetha, maybe the encounter would be entirely different for you, and that’s ok, you will ALWAYS have the hard mode available if that’s the version that appeals to you. Just accept as a fact that there are people who would genuinely enjoy an easier version that would never genuinely enjoy the existing one.
That said, if you want easy mode raids to have meaningful, balanced rewards, that somewhat teaches the normal mode, then that probably takes a bit more than just tweaking some numbers.
Having balanced rewards wouldn’t take more time, it just takes good sense. I mean, actually implementing it is just typing in what the rewards should be. The hard part is figuring out what they want them to be. But of course they can always tweak them a bit after launch if they are out of range. and just tweaking numbers is the best way to make it a teaching encounter, since if they change how anything actually operates then it would throw off any learning of the mechanics.
I accept that we have a fundamental difference of opinion. But your responses have severe weaknesses.
Please explain how you would learn from an easy mode that you could beat with novices on your second try. With the chance of failure, you know what/how you need to improve, because you, well, fail. After you succeed in an easy mode, there’s no incentive to learn.
All the bosses you described are in fractals, a mode designed for scaling. But no other bosses are like that. Personally, I think lupi is on the same difficulty tier as vale guardian. Even if it’s not, I’m sure there’s some players you can’t beat it. Yet there’s no easy mode arah.
And I think you’re proving my point here. Why do you want easy mode raids, when there’s already so much content at your skill level? Does all content need to be complete-able by the lowest skilled player? The median player?
Ok, all game modes in Guild wars 2 has unique rewards. It’s always been this way. If you don’t like that, then, again, a single player game with cheat codes is right for you.
I also think you severely underestimate the time it would take to polish easy mode raids. It’s certainly beyond tweaking numbers, as Gaile had already explained to you.
That’s not what you said. You said you want to be able to coexist peacefully with raids. I am coexisting peacefully in raids and I am in a worse position as you are. Therefore you should be capable of coexisting peacefully in raids.
. . .
That doesn’t make any sense. No, your being fine with it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether I’m fine with it. Why would that even . . .
I may have overestimated you, I’m sorry, won’t happen again.
I’m aware you want a second variant of the raid, an easier one, but I simply do not think it fits into this type of content, especially when every other type of PvE-content is easily conquerable by everyone.
Yes, that’s exactly the reason why it IS important, because it’s so out of line with the other content in the game. Players that enjoy the majority of the content in the game should feel like they can enjoy ALL the content in the game. Nobody wants to feel left out by content that is just completely outside their comfort zone.
If this were ALL a very difficult game, if that was the difficulty standard set by the game and the reason most people played it, Dark Souls, for example, then sure, “deal with it or leave.” But since that is NOT the standard set by the game, since most players came to it because it avoided that level of difficulty, it’s fine for the game to have some difficult elements so long as they are completely optional. Not just “you don’t have to do them, but you’ll be missing out on a bunch of stuff if you don’t,” but TRULY optional, as in “you don’t have to do them, and won’t be missing out on anything other than that challenge factor, because you’ll have alternatives.”
The rewards are raid-exclusive and given out for conquering said challenging content.
Currently, but they don’t have to be, and that’s the point.
As for your point regarding selling; yes, this is some sort of problem. However, if someone buys the raid this also means that, at the same time, there is a group of people who do these bosses with less manpower than you are supposed to have (if running with 1-2 player less is necessarily more difficult is another thing)
Yes, but that still doesn’t change the fact that the player who bought his way through deserves LESS prestige than someone who plays his own way through easy mode, and yet he gets it anyway. So any arguments of “easy mode would reduce the prestige of beating hard mode” are completely void. End of story.
What I simply don’t like is how many people act as if they’re entitled to get a free ride through raids along with rewards.
How is that any worse than people feeling that they are entitled to superior rewards just because they enjoy raiding content?
People who buy raids at least have the “decency” to pay others to carry them through, indirectly paying for the rewards and directly paying for the additional effort the group goes through.
Yeah, but I’m not asking for anyone to carry me. Yeah, I wouldn’t be paying raiders to carry me through, but neither would raiders have to put out any additional effort to get me through. I’m not asking them for anything, so I don’t owe them anything.
If you are interested in the raid encounters but not in the difficulty associated with them, you are not as interested in raids as you might think.
No, I’m interested in the raids exactly as I think. I’m just apparently not interested in the raids as you think. We are interested in different elements of the raid. I have repeatedly noted that I am not interested in raids as they currently exist, but I would be interested in raids as they could be, purely as an optional version, of course.
What you are interested in are the rewards, not doing the encounters. If that is the case, please just do content you enjoy and buy raids so that you can get your shinies.
No, I’m interested in the encounters as well, just at a reduced difficulty, and I’m not at all interested in being carried through it by others, nor are they entitled to my shinies just because they enjoy raiding.
Please explain how you would learn from an easy mode that you could beat with novices on your second try. With the chance of failure, you know what/how you need to improve, because you, well, fail. After you succeed in an easy mode, there’s no incentive to learn.
I’ve explained this several times before, but I’ll indulge you. Let’s say there are two types of players that might do easy mode:
Player A: Does not care about hard mode. Never wants to do hard mode. Just wants to play easy mode as simply as possible, collect his rewards from it, and move on. This is fine, if that’s what he wants, there’s nothing wrong with that, he’ll have easy mode, have fun with it, maybe improve his times, etc.
Player B: Does want to beat hard mode, eventually, but really hates the frustration of losing constantly. He’s researched hard mode, he knows the tactics that advanced clear teams use, he knows what he should be doing to beat hard mode, but he needs practice, and doesn’t want to constantly wipe to do it. While the enemy attacks do not hit as hard, he is aware of how hard they would be hitting in hard mode. If he gets hit by an attack that would normally do lethal damage, he would know that, he would know he screwed up, he would know to try better next time, the only difference being that the event would keep moving. He learns from it what he wants to learn from it. Think of it like sparring in martial arts, the other guy is not trying to kill you, but if he lightly tags you with a gloved fist, you know what kind of damage that could do if he meant you harm, you know that you need to learn to do better.
I’ll ask this seriously, since you seem to play the game a lot, aren’t there encounters where you passed them on the first or second try, but have since done them dozens of times? And wouldn’t you say that you are still betteR at those encounters than you were the first time through, capable of beating it faster, getting hit less often, that sort of thing?
Do you Fractal? Would you say it would be easier to take on Fractal 100 Mai Trin as your very first encounter with her, or would it be easier if you’d already beaten Fractal 25 Mai Trin dozens of times and know the basics of her attacks?
All the bosses you described are in fractals, a mode designed for scaling. But no other bosses are like that. Personally, I think lupi is on the same difficulty tier as vale guardian. Even if it’s not, I’m sure there’s some players you can’t beat it. Yet there’s no easy mode arah.
Again, beat Lupi second try. Soloed the last thirty seconds or so. Still haven’t beaten Vale Guardian after dozens of attempts over several hours. Huge difference. And sure, maybe Fractal bosses are the only ones who scale, but why can’t raid bosses also scale? It is the same game after all, it’s not like there’s some universal rule that ONLY fractal bosses can ever scale, that’s just the way it happens to be at the moment.
And I think you’re proving my point here. Why do you want easy mode raids, when there’s already so much content at your skill level? Does all content need to be complete-able by the lowest skilled player? The median player?
So that they don’t feel left out by it. Most players should be able to do everything. anything most players cannot do, should not matter to them in ANY way. And don’t push the argument that “anyone can raid,” it’s tired.
I also think you severely underestimate the time it would take to polish easy mode raids. It’s certainly beyond tweaking numbers, as Gaile had already explained to you.
Gaile prefaced that comment by noting that she had no idea how much work it would actually take, and has yet to get back to use with more information from the people who actually would know. It could take more time than I assume, I just highly doubt it. Remember that “polishing” easy mode is a far lower priority, since it would not need to be tightly tuned, and could more easily be tweaked after if launches if players are having too hard/easy time beating it, since the rewards would be lower and there would be no “speed clear prestige” that could potentially be ruined by it being undertuned. Worse case scenario if they launch it and it’s too easy, a bunch of people get one week’s worth of rewards, and they can either disable it or patch it to be harder within the week.
Yes, that’s exactly the reason why it IS important, because it’s so out of line with the other content in the game. Players that enjoy the majority of the content in the game should feel like they can enjoy ALL the content in the game. Nobody wants to feel left out by content that is just completely outside their comfort zone.
you’re wrong, if we have different types of content, it’s precisely because people enjoy different things. No one HAS to enjoy all. It’s better, yes, but not mandatory. And in order to encourage player to go outside their confort zone, there are rewards.
Currently, but they don’t have to be, and that’s the point.
correction, that’s YOUR point. again, you make a lot of generalities…
No, I’m interested in the raids exactly as I think. I’m just apparently not interested in the raids as you think. We are interested in different elements of the raid. I have repeatedly noted that I am not interested in raids as they currently exist, but I would be interested in raids as they could be, purely as an optional version, of course.
Again, let’s make a correction here. you’re not interested in raids, you’re interested in the armor. Please be honest. if there would be another way to have it, which you feel easier, you wouldn’t be here. It’s just you’re thinking that easier raids are the fastest way for YOU to have the armor, so you’re defending this idea, that’s all. Without reward toward legendary armor, i’m sure you wouldn’t step a foot in easier raid.
No, I’m interested in the encounters as well, just at a reduced difficulty, and I’m not at all interested in being carried through it by others, nor are they entitled to my shinies just because they enjoy raiding.
wrong, read above.
And btw, difficulty is part of the encounter. If you can faceroll it, that’s not a raid.
you’re wrong, if we have different types of content, it’s precisely because people enjoy different things. No one HAS to enjoy all. It’s better, yes, but not mandatory. And in order to encourage player to go outside their confort zone, there are rewards.
I get where you’re coming from, but I can’t agree with it. I think that they should offer different experiences, but when they do, they should not give ANY reason to do those experiences unless you ENJOY those experiences. I have no problem with raids existing for people who love raiding, they should have that content that they love. I have a problem when there are very good reasons why a player would want to complete a raid, even when they know for a fact that raiding is not the type of experience they would enjoy. Anything that is about the raid that is NOT about the hardcore difficulty of it, you should be able to get that elsewhere.
And as for “rewards to get you out of your comfort zone,” I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the comfort zone. It’s called that for a reason, people like the comfort zone. As I’ve said in the past, I think there is a valid place out there for unique rewards to get you to TRY new things, but these specific rewards need to be based on an average player putting a reasonable effort in over a reasonable period of time, a few hours at most. Once they’ve put in that time, they can fairly decide whether that is content they actually enjoy doing, and if not, they should be allowed to go in peace, without leaving anything on the table behind them.
If you spend a few hours raiding, and know that it is NOT the sort of content that you enjoy, then nobody benefits from there being further enticements to get you to raid any more than that.
Again, let’s make a correction here. you’re not interested in raids, you’re interested in the armor.
Again, NO.
Let me say that again, because I’ve said it at least a dozen times already and you refuse to acknowledge this, NO.
I am most certainly interested in both. Am I interested in the armor at all? Certainly. So are most of you or you wouldn’t fight tooth and nail to keep them exclusive to the content you just coincidentally enjoy doing. I definitely do want the armor, and have always been 100% up front about that.
But the portion that you refuse to accept as being 100% true is that I am also very interested in the gameplay experience of the raid itself. NOT the current version, where I can expect to die against a boss dozens and dozens of times and make almost no progress, that sort of Sisyphean bullkitten is the stuff of my nightmares, but similar encounters, with all the same mechanics, only right out of the gate you can play it through in only a few attempts, not resetting every few minutes but actually advancing through it, that experience I would enjoy, and I would do, and practice, and improve at it, and that experience I do want, with or without the rewards.
If they decide “we are doing easy mode raids, but no Legendary armor from it,” then I would still play it (assuming the generic rewards attached are at least competitive). Even for no reward I’d play through it at least once, although I think that would be a phenomenal waste of resources. But if it didn’t include the rewards, then I would continue to ask for them to be added elsewhere, because I would continue to never have any interest in clearing the hard mode raid, and continue to have interest in getting the armor, and would see no reason why these two beliefs should have to remain in conflict with each other.
I just see easy mode raids as the simplest and most effective way that they could add an alternative method of earning the Legendary armor via PvE content.
And btw, difficulty is part of the encounter. If you can faceroll it, that’s not a raid.
And again, in so far as that’s true, I have no interest in that sort of raid, and have been 100% upfront about that. But you could make those same settings and encounters with lower difficulty, just as there are level 25 fractals and level 100 Fractals. You don’t want to call that a raid? Fine, it’s not a raid, but whatever that is? That’s what I’m asking for here.
Fine, it’s not a raid, but whatever that is? That’s what I’m asking for here.
An open world boss?
An open world boss?
Sure, fine. Open world Vale Guardian, open world Gorseval, open world Sabetha, they deliver that, that might work out fine. Easy mode raid sounds easier to me, but I could be completely wrong about that, so sure, if making it an open world map works better for them, that’s fine too.
Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content).
Easy mode raids are going to cause instability in the design team (introducing this new goal will mess with future production – they now need to think “how will we deal with this mechanic for the easy mode?”).
Easy mode raids could overstretch the team and cause it to lag behind like the Legendary Weapon team and have it disbanded (this is a bad thing).
Easy mode raiding will devalue the prestige of items found in the real raid (Ohoni and his friends do not care about this but its still a fact people care about their items and how they aquire them).
Easy mode is unnecessary and being used purely as a protest point because some people who – if they spent as much time raiding as posting on forums – could get the rewards currently choose not to.
PS. Communism doesn’t work (no reason at all I’m mentioning this, none at all)
Who is we? Raiders? I certainly don´t want new raids. I did not even want the one we already have now
This is exactly why you should not be consulted on the future of raiding.
I have no idea why people wish to destroy something others love and they have no interest in participating in, other than spite. You are spiteful and have motives that should be considered dangerous and unhelpful to the development of raids.
You have failed to answer any of my points.
So because I did not want something to happen from the start, I should have no voice in it even if it concerns me, even if you stubbornly try to tell people that if they don´t raid, they are not affected by it? This is not an election where you should have to stay quiet if you choose not to vote.
I also never said that I want the raid that already is there to go offline. If Anet was able to work on two things at once and stop their gating fetish, they could produce a raid every month if you ask me. But they have clearly shown that they can´t do two things at once, so of course I am concerned if the focus stays on raiding. I have no idea how you can construct spite out of this.
(edited by Torolan.5816)
Fine, it’s not a raid, but whatever that is? That’s what I’m asking for here.
An open world boss?
Well, it’s instanced so calling it an open world content might be rather misleading.
Why would it be important if 10 more players are happy because they get shinies when we are talking about game design?
I’m saying that, all things being equal, ten players made more happy would trump one player being less happy, so even accepting that Random would be unhappy if other players were allowed to be happy that weren’t him, that shouldn’t stand in the way of making those players happy. Their combined happiness is more important than his.
Gimme and everybody else free precursors, people will be very happy.
Maybe, although in the long term I think having methods to earn them would be better, so long as those methods are reasonable, so long as they fall within the valley between “way too effortless” and “so difficulty/time consuming that they aren’t worth bothering.”
Read raids are not meant for a part of the community that does not like a challenge! And to be honest you already have fractals, dungeons and open world for easy mode content.
Were not meant for those players. Most of HoT was not meant for them either, but they’ve taken steps with the latest patch to correct some of that, and may be taking steps to correct it with raids too.
Hard mode raiding will remain “not meant for low challenge players,” and that’s fine, it’s ok for such content to exist, so long as it doesn’t block those players out from things that they do want. But it’s also ok for an easier mode to exist, one that IS intended for those lower challenge players.
I’m well aware of all the things the devs said in the past, much of which was in the form of marketing spiel intended to attract exactly those sorts of players to their product. But they can’t allow marketing to dictate content, and if they determine that there is a demand from their players for a type of content they aren’t currently providing, and it’s within their capabilities to provide that content, then it would be in their overall best interests to do so. I’m not explaining this to them, they know it already, I’m trying to explain to you why they are likely to move forward on something along these lines.
So lets recap here, raids are challenging content that reward cool trophies which you can show off in tyria proudly and these trophies indicate skill. Now we can put in easy mode for raids, but easy mode is not challenging, and should not give the rewards associated with beating challenging content, hence easy mode raids should not reward legendary armor.
That ship has already sailed. It is already possible to buy raid slots, so the idea that “wearing Legendary armor will be a prestigious thing” has already been tainted beyond repair. There will already be people who bought their way through the program, so what harm is there in “easy mode” players getting their eventually too?
Besides, think of it like the old WoW progression raids. They would release a raid, and it would be hard, then another raid, and it would be hard, then another, and by that point, there would be ways for just about anyone to get through the earlier raid. Now at that state of the game, the “hardcore” players would have armor from the second or third raid, that would be the prestige gear, while “scrubs” might be able to have raid-1 armor.
Now presumably there will be something similar here, not stat progression, but at least appearance progression. However easy mode would work, I fully expect easy mode players to have their armor many months after hard mode. By this point, hardcore players should already have been wearing their Forsaken Thicket gear, and will have new shinies to show off that would be further months down the road for easy mode players. Hardcore players will have to remain hardcore to stay on the cutting edge of meta-braggart-gear, but they will have that option if they are so inclined.
I however would be plain insulted if it would reward the same trophies.
I’m totally fine with it not awarding the same trophies, so long as there is still some alternate PvE path to Envoy armor. Armor is not trophy. Armor is armor.
You are missing the point, game design wise players direct happiness isn’t important when making these decision. Raids design wise are meant as a challenge, open world was not meant as a grindfest nor a challenge and thus was changed. The game needed a sense of accomplishment for veterans and new enthusiastic players. It was something that gw2 design wise was lacking.
Already shipped? Am I missing something? Do we already have legendary armor available to us? Even if the last part is on the difficulty we are experiencing now, only the most rich can buy their way through the achievements.
The gw2 team has identified a need for challenging content with rewards that indicate you clearing this content. Any decision related to raids should protect this principle. We should not make the raids more easy because YOU WANT as you stated legendary armor without beating the challenge.
Easy mode should be used so people can get into raiding and experience these cool fights, and also have the oppertunity to learn about the lore in forsaken thicket.
Also might I add the only part of the community that follows the metabuilds blindly is the vast majority of below average players and this is not a raid related problem.
Now please dont bother typing a wall of text that can be summarized as follows: I want easy access to legendary armor just by grinding my way through without needing any skill. About 99% of the content present in tyria will satisfy that desire.
(edited by DutchRiders.2871)
You are missing the point, game design wise players direct happiness isn’t important when making these decision. Raids design wise are meant as a challenge, open world was not meant as a grindfest nor a challenge and thus was changed. The game needed a sense of accomplishment for veterans and new enthusiastic players. It was something that gw2 design wise was lacking.
And the resounding consensus from the players to this was “no, it was not something the game was lacking,” it was a FEATURE that it lacked these things, not a bug. Players of Guild Wars 2 are partly players of Guild Wars 2 BECAUSE it is different than those other games that prioritized this sort of challenging content. We’re fine with the game including it, so long as it is completely avoidable, and not just in the sense of “you don’t have to do it, but then you’ll never get access to X, Y, Z.”
They made an experiment with HoT, the experiment was largely considered a tactical failure. They seem to be correcting their mistakes.
Easy mode should be used so people can get into raiding and experience these cool fights, and also have the oppertunity to learn about the lore in forsaken thicket.
And that is an important element of it, but these players also need some method of earning Legendary armor without having to ever do hard mode raids, whether that access comes from easy mode raids or some other source. Easy mode raids just seems the simplest way of achieving that.
Now please dont bother typing a wall of text that can be summarized as follows: I want easy access to legendary armor just by grinding my way through without needing any skill. About 99% of the content present in tyria will satisfy that desire.
Currently you cannot earn Legendary armor from 99% of the content in the game. When that changes, I’ll concede the point, but not a moment before.
So because I did not want something to happen from the start, I should have no voice in it even if it concerns me, even if you stubbornly try to tell people that if they don´t raid, they are not affected by it? This is not an election where you should have to stay quiet if you choose not to vote.
I also never said that I want the raid that already is there to go offline. If Anet was able to work on two things at once and stop their gating fetish, they could produce a raid every month if you ask me. But they have clearly shown that they can´t do two things at once, so of course I am concerned if the focus stays on raiding. I have no idea how you can construct spite out of this.
But you’re asking them to take on extra workload to construct easy mode for you, Astral, Stihl and Ohoni while you all don’t even want raids to exist in the first place..
This is exactly where you keep ending up; “I don’t like raids, maybe the raid team could do more work that fundamentally changes its structure – I hope nothing bad happens.”
Just let it go… Leave raids to the raiders. Also this isn’t an election (might want to remember that, people will begin to think you’re a mad political activist seeing a political system that needs smashing everywhere you look – nothing to lose but your chains right?).
Again;
Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content).
Easy mode raids are going to cause instability in the design team (introducing this new goal will mess with future production – they now need to think “how will we deal with this mechanic for the easy mode?”).
Easy mode raids could overstretch the team and cause it to lag behind like the Legendary Weapon team and have it disbanded (this is a bad thing).
Easy mode raiding will devalue the prestige of items found in the real raid (Ohoni and his friends do not care about this but its still a fact people care about their items and how they aquire them).
Easy mode is unnecessary and being used purely as a protest point because some people who – if they spent as much time raiding as posting on forums – could get the rewards currently choose not to.
But you’re asking them to take on extra workload to construct easy mode for you, Astral, Stihl and Ohoni while you all don’t even want raids to exist in the first place..
Raiders were asking them to take on the construction of raids, which was significantly more work than easy mode could possibly entail. Obviously we’re asking ANet to take on additional work, but additional work that we feel would be well worth it in terms of overall player happiness and entertainment value. Every minute of time they put in over at ANet has this factor, it has an associated cost and an associated benefit. I firmly believe that the cost/benefit on a well executed easy mode raid would be well worth doing, and WAY better than many of their other projects (including raids themselves if they are left in their current form alone).
This is exactly where you keep ending up; “I don’t like raids, maybe the raid team could do more work that fundamentally changes its structure – I hope nothing bad happens.”
Again though, the goal is to have it as an alternative, so that the original is left 100% intact for those who enjoy it as it is. Altering the existing raids would only be a last resort if easy mode versions are taken entirely off the table.
Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content).
Different "we"s here. You might want more normal raids. People who do not like the existing raids do not. To those people, more raids would be seen as a complete waste of developer resources. An easy mode raid, on the other hand, would not necessarily take any resources away from future raid development, since the resources necessary could be pulled from other departments, and in creating the easy mode, they could JUSTIFY the hard mode you enjoy, by giving a reason to play it for people who do not like hard mode at all.
There was actually a good South Park episode about this. Cartman bought an amusement park, with the dream of having it all to himself. But then he learned that if he wanted to keep the lights on, he needed to share the park with other people.
Easy mode raids are going to cause instability in the design team (introducing this new goal will mess with future production – they now need to think “how will we deal with this mechanic for the easy mode?”).
It doesn’t have to. They can continue to design hard mode entirely in their own bubble, and allow a secondary team to worry about adapting it to an easier version.
Easy mode raids could overstretch the team and cause it to lag behind like the Legendary Weapon team and have it disbanded (this is a bad thing).
Again, I don’t believe that Easy mode, IF it takes any significant amount of effort to implement, should be a burden on the existing team. It should either be outsourced to another team, or involve the core raid team increasing slightly in size to accommodate the workload. The goal should be to not stretch out the timetable on the existing raid schedule.
Easy mode raiding will devalue the prestige of items found in the real raid (Ohoni and his friends do not care about this but its still a fact people care about their items and how they aquire them).
It will not devalue it any more than selling raid runs currently does. That ship has already sailed and there was mass cheering from the docks. The “prestige” of the items would be completely unchanged, all that might change is the value of selling a raid run to your fellow players.
Easy mode is unnecessary and being used purely as a protest point because some people who – if they spent as much time raiding as posting on forums – could get the rewards currently choose not to.
It may be completely unnecessary to you, and that’s fine. But it is important to others, and nothing you can say will change that.
So because I did not want something to happen from the start, I should have no voice in it even if it concerns me, even if you stubbornly try to tell people that if they don´t raid, they are not affected by it? This is not an election where you should have to stay quiet if you choose not to vote.
I also never said that I want the raid that already is there to go offline. If Anet was able to work on two things at once and stop their gating fetish, they could produce a raid every month if you ask me. But they have clearly shown that they can´t do two things at once, so of course I am concerned if the focus stays on raiding. I have no idea how you can construct spite out of this.But you’re asking them to take on extra workload to construct easy mode for you, Astral, Stihl and Ohoni while you all don’t even want raids to exist in the first place..
This is exactly where you keep ending up; “I don’t like raids, maybe the raid team could do more work that fundamentally changes its structure – I hope nothing bad happens.”
Just let it go… Leave raids to the raiders. Also this isn’t an election (might want to remember that, people will begin to think you’re a mad political activist seeing a political system that needs smashing everywhere you look – nothing to lose but your chains right?).
Again;
Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content).
Easy mode raids are going to cause instability in the design team (introducing this new goal will mess with future production – they now need to think “how will we deal with this mechanic for the easy mode?”).
Easy mode raids could overstretch the team and cause it to lag behind like the Legendary Weapon team and have it disbanded (this is a bad thing).
Easy mode raiding will devalue the prestige of items found in the real raid (Ohoni and his friends do not care about this but its still a fact people care about their items and how they aquire them).
Easy mode is unnecessary and being used purely as a protest point because some people who – if they spent as much time raiding as posting on forums – could get the rewards currently choose not to.
I am not trying to break the system. A single voice can´t break the system, I am not that naive. I am actually trying to reach for a compromise, any compromise to be honest.
You correctly assessed that I don´t care for raid mechanics and challenge. Story and an otherwise unreachable reward keep me arguing here.
Let me see the story of the raid without entering it like with that book you got at the end of season 1, then this problem is already solved.
I would be ok with an easy mode for raids, but indeed still vastly prefer to avoid them altogether. Live and let live.
We seem to agree on the idea that Anet is unable to do two things at once. Still, Anet has recently shown that they are able to distribute rewards over all of their game modes. Stretch out legendary armor to other contents like wvw or pvp and this problem is easily too. Some people don´t want this to happen. Why? Do raids stand on such a house of cards that if you remove that card, it collapses? People kept on playing WvW despite it being the red headed stepchild of Anet for years and the rewards there being laughable at best. Why should raids not be able to stand on it´s own without the crutch?
Where we don´t agree is prestige of an item. The moment someone is carried, the item is devalued in the moment that guy gets spotted repeatedly dying in the Jormag fight or something. But that is actually not much of a problem if you insist on prestige, give the stuff a different color and the problem is solved too.
Well, it’s instanced so calling it an open world content might be rather misleading.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
Well, it’s instanced so calling it an open world content might be rather misleading.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
You’re right, easy mode raid is not the only way. Unfortunately, at the moment there’s no way available at all, and easy mode raid is something that at the moment is the most likely to happen (seeing as it would require leat amount of resources).
I’m willing to make do with easy mode raids, because waiting for something that would fit me better might be way, way too long for my liking.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Well, it’s instanced so calling it an open world content might be rather misleading.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
You’re right, easy mode raid is not the only way. Unfortunately, at the moment there’s no way available at all, and easy mode raid is something that at the moment is the most likely to happen (seeing as it would require leat amount of resources).
I’m willing to make do with easy mode raids, because waiting for something that would fit me better might be way, way too long for my liking.Perfect is the enemy of good.
But dungeons already exist?
Well, it’s instanced so calling it an open world content might be rather misleading.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
You’re right, easy mode raid is not the only way. Unfortunately, at the moment there’s no way available at all, and easy mode raid is something that at the moment is the most likely to happen (seeing as it would require leat amount of resources).
I’m willing to make do with easy mode raids, because waiting for something that would fit me better might be way, way too long for my liking.Perfect is the enemy of good.
But dungeons already exist?
So? They offer neither the story nor the rewards of the current raid, do they?
Well, it’s instanced so calling it an open world content might be rather misleading.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
You’re right, easy mode raid is not the only way. Unfortunately, at the moment there’s no way available at all, and easy mode raid is something that at the moment is the most likely to happen (seeing as it would require leat amount of resources).
I’m willing to make do with easy mode raids, because waiting for something that would fit me better might be way, way too long for my liking.Perfect is the enemy of good.
But dungeons already exist?
So? They offer neither the story nor the rewards of the current raid, do they?
Raids offer neither the story nor the rewards of dungeons, what is your point?
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
and that may be true, and when they release a dungeon or fractal version of the Forsaken Thicket, with the reward structure from the raids intact, then you will begin to have a point, but I still think that would take a lot more work for a lot less return than just making an easy mode raid, making it a far worse alternative.
But dungeons already exist?
Again, show me the entrance to the Forsaken Thicket dungeon and the conversation is over. Until then,. stop bringing it up. Asked and answered.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
and that may be true, and when they release a dungeon or fractal version of the Forsaken Thicket, with the reward structure from the raids intact, then you will begin to have a point, but I still think that would take a lot more work for a lot less return than just making an easy mode raid, making it a far worse alternative.
But dungeons already exist?
Again, show me the entrance to the Forsaken Thicket dungeon and the conversation is over. Until then,. stop bringing it up. Asked and answered.
Show me the entrance to the Ascalonian Catacombs raid.
Show me the entrance to the Silverwastes pvp arena.
Show me the entrance to the dragon’s stand wvw borderlands.
Show me the entrance to the shatterer fractal.
Show me the entrance to the mossman world boss.
Show me the entrance to the open world cliffside map.
Show me the entrance to the Arah wvw battleground.
Raids are no different than any other content in that aspect.
Well, it’s instanced so calling it an open world content might be rather misleading.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
You’re right, easy mode raid is not the only way. Unfortunately, at the moment there’s no way available at all, and easy mode raid is something that at the moment is the most likely to happen (seeing as it would require leat amount of resources).
I’m willing to make do with easy mode raids, because waiting for something that would fit me better might be way, way too long for my liking.Perfect is the enemy of good.
But dungeons already exist?
So? They offer neither the story nor the rewards of the current raid, do they?
For story I could suggest Wooden Potatoes on youtube or asking in LFG to access a completed instance.
For rewards you must complete the content.
Raids will always have unique rewards and anyone who doubts the benefits of unique rewards should check the difference in PvP population during and outside leagues. Raids are high end PvE and you wanting there to be equal reward for a low end PvE option just shows your unwillingness or inadequecy to do the prescribed content for the given rewards.
Constructing low end PvE raid is a waste of resources and dangerous to the stability of raids (as I’ve stated) and your claim that it is in any way likely is misguided – Anet have never stated raids are for everyone (they have infact stated the opposite) and they have constructed Legendary Armour as a specific reward for raids.
No one owes you a specially constructed instance to protect your unwillingness or inadequecy.
Show me the entrance to the Ascalonian Catacombs raid.
Show me the entrance to the Silverwastes pvp arena.
Show me the entrance to the dragon’s stand wvw borderlands.
Show me the entrance to the shatterer fractal.
Show me the entrance to the mossman world boss.
Show me the entrance to the open world cliffside map.
Show me the entrance to the Arah wvw battleground.Raids are no different than any other content in that aspect.
Those things don’t exist, but then, I don’t go around telling people that they do. If you want those things to exist, then campaign for them, I won’t stand in your way and it may eventually benefit the game.
But if you do campaign for the Shatterer Fractal, I won’t disrespect your intent by telling you that you can just play other Fractals, or just play the Shatterer world boss, I will accept that if you’re asking for a Shatterer Fractal then it is because something about the current offerings does not meet your needs, that you are aware that they exist and what they do and do not offer, and what you want out of a Shatterer fractal would be something different than the existing options.
Again, show me the content that exists in the current game that:
1. Takes place in the Forsaken Thicket maps.
2. Includes all of the existing FT raid boss fights, either in a single chain of events, or separate stages (ie a single dungeon map or split between multiple paths/fractal islands).
3. Includes a reasonable path to the Legendary armor and other raid rewards.
4. Is no more difficult to complete than a lower-level Fractal or an Explorable dungeon path.
If your suggested alternative fails to meet any of those criteria, then it is not an acceptable alternative, it is just an attempt to shut up dissent.
Raids will always have unique rewards and anyone who doubts the benefits of unique rewards should check the difference in PvP population during and outside leagues.
But is that a good thing? I’m one of those people playing during the PvP season, and I HATE IT. It’s just awful, and it makes me like the game less and less the more I have to play it, but I do have to play it, otherwise I’ll never get those Ascension wings, and all my previous time sunk into the project will have been a complete waste. Does ANet benefit from causing player to HATE the time they spend playing their game? You seem to think so, and for the time being ANet seems to think so, but I don’t see the logic in it.
Raids are high end PvE and you wanting there to be equal reward for a low end PvE option just shows your unwillingness or inadequecy to do the prescribed content for the given rewards.
Yes, that’s the entire point.
Constructing low end PvE raid is a waste of resources and dangerous to the stability of raids
You have yet to make a case for this premise, beyond insisting repeatedly that it is so. If you’re right, then it’ll never happen, but that they are at least considering the idea of easy mode raiding indicates that there is at least some basis to the idea.
Anet have never stated raids are for everyone (they have infact stated the opposite) and they have constructed Legendary Armour as a specific reward for raids.
This point is a bit silly. Ever since the game launched, Legendary armor has been on the table, something discussed and theorized. Legendary armor is not being added to the game because of raids, it was not created because of raids, it is something that would be inevitable eventually. If raids never existed, then the path to earn Legendary armor would still be there, it would just be some other path. Stop acting as if the two concepts are inevitably linked for all time, when changing that would only take them saying “we’re going to change that.”
It’s probably best that a mod just close this discussion if you can even call it such a thing anymore as its devolved from somewhat rational, to well this cesspool.
It’s probably best that a mod just close this discussion if you can even call it such a thing anymore as its devolved from somewhat rational, to well this cesspool.
Wait, there was a point at which this was somewhat rational? O_o
I’m not sure its really a great idea to close this thread anyways, people should be able to discuss this, although the discussion has took a turn for the worst. And a new one would pop up anyways.
But is that a good thing? I’m one of those people playing during the PvP season, and I HATE IT. It’s just awful, and it makes me like the game less and less the more I have to play it, but I do have to play it, otherwise I’ll never get those Ascension wings, and all my previous time sunk into the project will have been a complete waste. Does ANet benefit from causing player to HATE the time they spend playing their game? You seem to think so, and for the time being ANet seems to think so, but I don’t see the logic in it.
Yes it is a good thing.
The problem is not with the concept, it’s with you. You want to get everything even though you don’t like the content; you’re missing the point. You should be playing content you like and using rewards as validation to complete that content, not seek the validation in content you don’t like.
Raids will always have unique rewards and anyone who doubts the benefits of unique rewards should check the difference in PvP population during and outside leagues.
But is that a good thing? I’m one of those people playing during the PvP season, and I HATE IT. It’s just awful, and it makes me like the game less and less the more I have to play it, but I do have to play it, otherwise I’ll never get those Ascension wings, and all my previous time sunk into the project will have been a complete waste. Does ANet benefit from causing player to HATE the time they spend playing their game? You seem to think so, and for the time being ANet seems to think so, but I don’t see the logic in it.
Raids are high end PvE and you wanting there to be equal reward for a low end PvE option just shows your unwillingness or inadequecy to do the prescribed content for the given rewards.
Yes, that’s the entire point.
Constructing low end PvE raid is a waste of resources and dangerous to the stability of raids
You have yet to make a case for this premise, beyond insisting repeatedly that it is so. If you’re right, then it’ll never happen, but that they are at least considering the idea of easy mode raiding indicates that there is at least some basis to the idea.
Anet have never stated raids are for everyone (they have infact stated the opposite) and they have constructed Legendary Armour as a specific reward for raids.
This point is a bit silly. Ever since the game launched, Legendary armor has been on the table, something discussed and theorized. Legendary armor is not being added to the game because of raids, it was not created because of raids, it is something that would be inevitable eventually. If raids never existed, then the path to earn Legendary armor would still be there, it would just be some other path. Stop acting as if the two concepts are inevitably linked for all time, when changing that would only take them saying “we’re going to change that.”
Firstly I’ve given reasons;
1.Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content). You are lying if you say it will be for free and that we wouldn’t have to sacrifice something else, I do not want X devs working on Easy Mode when they could be working on a new raid
2.Easy mode raids are going to cause instability in the design team (introducing this new goal will mess with future production – they now need to think “how will we deal with this mechanic for the easy mode?”). You are being ridiculous if you think adding the policy of Easy Mode will not cause restrictions on future raids – imagine there is no way to turn Sabetha’s insta kill mechanic to a harmless hit without massive reworking, this will mean every new raid will probably not include insta kill mechanics because of how difficult they are to implement
3.Easy mode raids could overstretch the team and cause it to lag behind like the Legendary Weapon team and have it disbanded (this is a bad thing). This seems self evident from recent times and plays into the extra workload in both above points
4.Easy mode raiding will devalue the prestige of items found in the real raid (You and your very few friends in this thread do not care about this but its still a fact people care about their items and how they aquire them). People enjoy unique or special rewards – go ask a jeweler if there is a reason certain gems are more expensive than others (its because of their rarity and uniqueness), humanity has liked prestige items since someone found the first funny coloured rock or skinned the first animal with a pretty coat.
Since you needed further explanation I have expanded the points in bold.
So you HATE PvP and yet still hang around to get the item, that shows the item can overpower one of the strongest emotions a human can feel – yes I think Anet know exactly how good these items are for player retention and participation, HATE means nothing compared to the drive for shinies (by your own description).
As for your final point Legendary Armour has not been mentioned by a dev once before Raids were announced, they have clearly constructed them as a pair because they wanted to sufficiently reward those who Raid – join us or die (without Legendary Armour).
But is that a good thing? I’m one of those people playing during the PvP season, and I HATE IT. It’s just awful, and it makes me like the game less and less the more I have to play it, but I do have to play it, otherwise I’ll never get those Ascension wings, and all my previous time sunk into the project will have been a complete waste. Does ANet benefit from causing player to HATE the time they spend playing their game? You seem to think so, and for the time being ANet seems to think so, but I don’t see the logic in it.
Yes it is a good thing.
The problem is not with the concept, it’s with you. You want to get everything even though you don’t like the content; you’re missing the point. You should be playing content you like and using rewards as validation to complete that content, not seek the validation in content you don’t like.
He gets it.
Either you bite the bullet and want the shiny so badly that you put up with the content you enjoy or you don’t want the shiny badly enough and just let it be.
Besides, in case you didn’t realize: Content has to be incentivized in order to make players try it out and hopefully stick to it. If you could get everything everywhere or you’d have five different paths across all the game modes, why would you ever have to try something else?
ANet wants you to try out and play various kinds of content so that you have seemingly more things to do, thus hopefully don’t burn out as fast by doing the same stuff over and over again, ultimately making you stick around and giving them profit in some way.
What I wanted to ask though and forgot about: Why do there have to be rewards for an easy mode raid, when all that it should be is a training ground and a way for everyone to experience the story?
You are missing the point, game design wise players direct happiness isn’t important when making these decision. Raids design wise are meant as a challenge, open world was not meant as a grindfest nor a challenge and thus was changed. The game needed a sense of accomplishment for veterans and new enthusiastic players. It was something that gw2 design wise was lacking.
And the resounding consensus from the players to this was “no, it was not something the game was lacking,” it was a FEATURE that it lacked these things, not a bug. Players of Guild Wars 2 are partly players of Guild Wars 2 BECAUSE it is different than those other games that prioritized this sort of challenging content. We’re fine with the game including it, so long as it is completely avoidable, and not just in the sense of “you don’t have to do it, but then you’ll never get access to X, Y, Z.”
They made an experiment with HoT, the experiment was largely considered a tactical failure. They seem to be correcting their mistakes.
Easy mode should be used so people can get into raiding and experience these cool fights, and also have the oppertunity to learn about the lore in forsaken thicket.
And that is an important element of it, but these players also need some method of earning Legendary armor without having to ever do hard mode raids, whether that access comes from easy mode raids or some other source. Easy mode raids just seems the simplest way of achieving that.
Now please dont bother typing a wall of text that can be summarized as follows: I want easy access to legendary armor just by grinding my way through without needing any skill. About 99% of the content present in tyria will satisfy that desire.
Currently you cannot earn Legendary armor from 99% of the content in the game. When that changes, I’ll concede the point, but not a moment before.
The fault is with you and not with the majority of players, the majority of players will not make legendary skins period. Legendary skins were never meant for below average players or skilled casuals. However most of these guys dont mind, you however only play for rewards and will spend ridiculous amounts of time on content you do not like.
The sense of accomplishment and hype generated after your first new raid boss kill is almost exclusive to raids. The game was definitely lacking in this regard, now the devs need to keep this out of the open world so yeah raids have a clear spot in the game design. Calling this a feature is just bad salesmanship. And again raids are doing very well according to statistics.
I need to do fractals for fractal skins and fractal legendary, I need to do HOT maps for 2nd gen legendaries, I need to do divisions for the pvp back pack. Plenty of content gives exclusive rewards, the legendary armor just happens to be exclusive to raids. Whether you put effort in it is up to each individual player. Easy mode can give less prestigious armor, as seen with plenty of other sets ( glorious armor and the glorious hero armor, mist forged and mist forged hero).
Ya know what I teach my kids ? Work for what you want, everything comes at a cost.
Regardless of difficulty mode, players will still have to work for things and gear up properly and learn the mechanics and play regularly to build the collections and legendary insights…
Some of you make it seem like it’s going to be walk up to boss and blow it up in one shot.
Some of you make it seem like it’s going to be walk up to boss and blow it up in one shot.
In case you’re not aware, this is pretty much what the “pro easy raid”-guys in this thread suggest/expect from easy mode, at least some of the most vocal ones here.
It’s probably best that a mod just close this discussion if you can even call it such a thing anymore as its devolved from somewhat rational, to well this cesspool.
You guys seem obsessed with closing these threads, and at some point that will happen, but then another one will start up by someone else, because this is an actual issue that people care about. If all you want is to keep trolling these threads until they get shut down, then go right ahead, but if you want them to actually stop then you need to figure out a way to resolve these concerns to everyone’s satisfaction.
Yes it is a good thing.
The problem is not with the concept, it’s with you. You want to get everything even though you don’t like the content; you’re missing the point. You should be playing content you like and using rewards as validation to complete that content, not seek the validation in content you don’t like.
And that’s my entire point, I should have that option. If I know that I definitely want a given reward, and that I definitely hate the content it’s attached to, I should have other options, so that I can still earn that reward and I can do content I enjoy as I do so. To say that I should not do content I don’t enjoy means giving up on the reward that I want. To say that I should do the specific work necessary to get the reward means doing work that I hate. Neither is a satisfactory outcome.
I get the idea of luring people into doing content that they don’t want, but there needs to be a great deal of flexibility there. You can make one option more efficient than another, so that if they are even remotely interested in that content then they will choose that option over the alternatives, and you can force people to dabble in a certain type of content, to do a little of it before they’re allowed to move on to something else, just to confirm their feelings about that content, but once the player knows that they do not want to do that content anymore, it is in EVERYONE’s best interest that they be allowed to go in peace, without missing out on anything.
1.Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content). You are lying if you say it will be for free and that we wouldn’t have to sacrifice something else, I do not want X devs working on Easy Mode when they could be working on a new raid
I didn’t say “free,” but I did say “cheap,” and I believe that. I believe that the amount of work necessary will be inconsequential, not enough to slow down the release of a hard mode raid by even a single patch cycle. And neither of us can say which devs would be involved in the process, there is no reason to assume that it would result in the new raids being slowed.
Beside that, Rising Dusk indicated that they do not intend to finish raid 2 before XPac 2, meaning that when the raid team finishes wing 3, chances are they will be dissolved, moved to other projects anyway until it’s time to ramp up production on the next raid. It’s not like we’ll be seeing a new expansion any time soon, it would be a commercial disaster considering that they haven’t made right on the first one yet.
You are being ridiculous if you think adding the policy of Easy Mode will not cause restrictions on future raids – imagine there is no way to turn Sabetha’s insta kill mechanic to a harmless hit without massive reworking, this will mean every new raid will probably not include insta kill mechanics because of how difficult they are to implement
I highly doubt that it would be a huge problem. My assumption here, based on how this and similar games work, is that each enemy attack is coded like players attacks, with a spreadsheet listing of traits, such as damage, cooldown, attached animation, etc. One of those affixes for Sabetha’s move would be a “unblockable,” another would be “auto-defeats”. To “fix” the move, they would only need to replace the “auto-defeat” affix with an “auto-down” affix, or just remove it entirely and cause it to deal damage high enough to down most builds, but not tankier ones. I can’t imagine their pipeline being so inefficient that any of the existing boss fights would need massive reworking.
But if in future they do add encounters that are impossible to “EZ,” then so be it, they can just be honest about that, say that this mechanic can’t be reasonably nerfed, and replace it. I don’t believe that they should allow easy mode to dictate what options are available for hard mode. I will put it in writing for you, I do not want for them to nerf hard mode to make easy mode easier to implement.
People enjoy unique or special rewards – go ask a jeweler if there is a reason certain gems are more expensive than others (its because of their rarity and uniqueness), humanity has liked prestige items since someone found the first funny coloured rock or skinned the first animal with a pretty coat.
Yes, but in the real world, rarity is necessary, there only exist a certain amount of gem stones, and therefor they are rare and expensive. Aluminum was once the most precious metal on Earth, because it was very hard to process. Then they found a way to pump it out in bulk and suddenly we’re wrapping sandwiches in it. I get why people would want to have things that few other people have, I’m just saying that they do not deserve to have it. It is better for ten people to have a thing that they appreciate because they have it, than to allow only one of those ten people to have it so that he can appreciate it because they don’t have it.
So you HATE PvP and yet still hang around to get the item, that shows the item can overpower one of the strongest emotions a human can feel – yes I think Anet know exactly how good these items are for player retention and participation, HATE means nothing compared to the drive for shinies (by your own description).
But the thing is, this principle is working against ANet’s best interests. I spent the better part of the PvP season PvPing every day. I did not enjoy this at all. If not for the league achievements, I would not have been doing this, I instead would have been playing OTHER parts of their game, parts that I DO enjoy. This would have made me happier, more satisfied with their product, more interested in buying frivolous items from the gem store, supporting other players out there in the world, etc. If the Ascension could be earned doing other activities than just PvP, I could have been doing those activities instead, having more fun, which is better for ANet than players not having fun.
As for your final point Legendary Armour has not been mentioned by a dev once before Raids were announced, they have clearly constructed them as a pair because they wanted to sufficiently reward those who Raid – join us or die (without Legendary Armour).
Don’t be silly. Players were discussing Legendary Armor since the weapons were known to exist, before even Ascended armor. They were ALWAYS on the radar of future additions to the game. There is nothing at all about raids that make Legendary armor more likely than before them.
Besides, in case you didn’t realize: Content has to be incentivized in order to make players try it out and hopefully stick to it. If you could get everything everywhere or you’d have five different paths across all the game modes, why would you ever have to try something else?
Again, it’s fine to use rewards as an incentive to TRY new content, but these rewards should come fast and easy, long enough that a player has to genuinely try to enjoy the content, but short enough that once they’ve decided they do not enjoy the content they can move on. There is no benefit to forcing a player to stick around once he knows he won’t be having any fun.
What I wanted to ask though and forgot about: Why do there have to be rewards for an easy mode raid, when all that it should be is a training ground and a way for everyone to experience the story?
Because it’s not meant to be a training ground, it’s meant to be an alternative for people who will never enjoy the hard mode. If people want to use it for a training ground, they can, it will serve that function, but that is not its primary function.
In case you’re not aware, this is pretty much what the “pro easy raid”-guys in this thread suggest/expect from easy mode, at least some of the most vocal ones here.
Nope.
And that’s my entire point, I should have that option.
There’s no reason you should.
Legendary stat-swapping is a convenience which you don’t need because you don’t do content that requires stat optimizing; you don’t do hard PvE content and you don’t like WvW (as per the daily thread on the general forums). You even push the oxymoron that easy mode raids should not require stat optimizing, yet it should drop gear that supports easy stat optimizing.
Skins are cosmetic and therefore completely irrelevant by design.
It’s like, why? Giving you legendary armor doesn’t actually mean you’ll be able to do anything extra in the game that you wouldn’t do prior so what’s the point of giving it to you?
Because it’s not meant to be a training ground, it’s meant to be an alternative for people who will never enjoy the hard mode. If people want to use it for a training ground, they can, it will serve that function, but that is not its primary function.
But the idea of this mode being a training ground is your justification for an easier mode having identical, yet tuned down, mechanics of a hard mode. I’ll take this as a retraction?
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
As for your final point Legendary Armour has not been mentioned by a dev once before Raids were announced, they have clearly constructed them as a pair because they wanted to sufficiently reward those who Raid – join us or die (without Legendary Armour).
Don’t be silly. Players were discussing Legendary Armor since the weapons were known to exist, before even Ascended armor. They were ALWAYS on the radar of future additions to the game. There is nothing at all about raids that make Legendary armor more likely than before them.
So you changed “devs” when I wrote it to “players,” players have also been talking about Cantha, The Scepter of Orr and Lyvia since launch but until a dev says they are coming its irrelevant. Don’t do this again, makes you look manipulative. Legendary Armour came into the game specifically as a Raid reward, get over it.
The rest of your points are your ideological bias or pretending you know anything about programming or software team management, which you don’t.
Ohoni.6057:
And that’s my entire point, I should have that option.
There’s no reason you should.
Of course there is, it would make me happy. That’s reason enough to do anything so long as there’s no better reason not to.
Legendary stat-swapping is a convenience which you don’t need because you don’t do content that requires stat optimizing;
Bullkitten. In fact, I can use it more than most, since I’m fairly casual about stats. If fact, more “hardcore” players have significantly less need for swappable stats, because they get hung up on not being able to swap out their precious Runes. But again, it doesn’t not matter in the least whether I need the stat swapping a Legendary armor would offer. That may be important to you, it is not to me.
Skins are cosmetic and therefore completely irrelevant by design.
Again, irrelevant to you, perhaps, not irrelevant to me. Feel free to use that in arguments about why you do not need Legendary armor, but it cannot be applied to arguments about why I don’t need it.
It’s like, why? Giving you legendary armor doesn’t actually mean you’ll be able to do anything extra in the game that you wouldn’t do prior so what’s the point of giving it to you?
Before having Legendary armor, I won’t be able to apply the Legendary Armor skins in the wardrobe. After acquiring it, I will be able to. This is the most important thing about Legendary armor. If you can suggest an alternative way to unlock the skin in the wardrobe without acquiring the Legendary armor, then go ahead, but otherwise you’re not being helpful.
But the idea of this mode being a training ground is your justification for an easier mode having identical, yet tuned down, mechanics of a hard mode. I’ll take this as a retraction?
No, as I said, it should be both. If it’s JUST a training ground, then it will have failed. If it’s JUST a goofy little side option that does not train people in how to do hard mode, then it will be less than it could be. It should be both things.
Of course there is, it would make me happy.
Feelings are boring. I don’t tell you about my feelings.
Bullkitten. In fact, I can use it more than most, since I’m fairly casual about stats.
I can use a home colonoscopy kit but that doesn’t mean I need one. Being able to use something or being able to use it more than someone else is not a justification for having or getting it.
Again, irrelevant to you, perhaps, not irrelevant to me. Feel free to use that in arguments about why you do not need Legendary armor, but it cannot be applied to arguments about why I don’t need it.
Yes they can, sorry.
You don’t do hard content so you don’t need optimal stats so you don’t need to be able to easily swap to optimal stats.
You don’t do WvW so you don’t need a broad set of stats to adjust to build trends.
You have no need for it. You have want for it, but you don’t need it.
If you need legendary armor to be happy you seem to be a bit beyond the pale.
Before having Legendary armor, I won’t be able to apply the Legendary Armor skins in the wardrobe. After acquiring it, I will be able to. This is the most important thing about Legendary armor.
Yes but as I said skins don’t matter. Nobody needs skins.
If you can suggest an alternative way to unlock the skin in the wardrobe without acquiring the Legendary armor, then go ahead, but otherwise you’re not being helpful.
You could possibly sneak into ANet headquarters and manually grant yourself the legendary skins.
You’ve had 40 pages of help, both in personal suggestions and in suggestions on your ‘easy mode’. You’re not here to be taught, so why would I be trying to teach you.
No, as I said, it should be both. If it’s JUST a training ground, then it will have failed. If it’s JUST a goofy little side option that does not train people in how to do hard mode, then it will be less than it could be. It should be both things.
Why should it train people to do hard modes when you are the target audience and you will never do hard modes?
So you changed “devs” when I wrote it to “players,” players have also been talking about Cantha, The Scepter of Orr and Lyvia since launch but until a dev says they are coming its irrelevant.
Why do you act as though my position changed when only your understanding of my position changes? I never changed anything.
If you do want developer acknowledgement though, here’s Colin Johanson in 2013: “You won’t see legendary armor any time soon, you will see Ascended Armor in 2013 for sure though, yes.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Is-legendary-armor-coming-out/first
So “not soon,” at that time, but it was definitely on the table.
The point is though, these are not things that are intrinsically linked to raids. You CAN have Legendary Armor with or without raids being a thing, so to act like they MUST be attached to raids for them to exist in the first place is utter nonsense. Right now, the only way we know of to earn them is through raids. Tomorrow they could announce that you can buy them off the festival vendor for a couple of candy corn cobs. It is entirely up to them at any time.
I can use a home colonoscopy kit but that doesn’t mean I need one. Being able to use something or being able to use it more than someone else is not a justification for having or getting it.
This is a game. “Making players happy” is reason enough to do anything, so long as there is no compelling reason not to.
You don’t do hard content so you don’t need optimal stats so you don’t need to be able to easily swap to optimal stats.
So? It would still come in handy. And again, “hardcore” players can’t really use Legendary armor anyway because they wouldn’t be able to swap out Runes. They are so super-serious about their stats that if they wanted to swap stats on the fly, they’d also want to swap Runes on the fly, and would therefore prefer to have two full sets of Ascended armor to one stat-swapping Legendary. It’s the more casual players that benefit from stat-swapping more.
You have no need for it. You have want for it, but you don’t need it.
This is a game, nobody needs anything. Basing any argument on what a player “needs” is automatically failure. It’s about getting players what they want.
Yes but as I said skins don’t matter. Nobody needs skins.
Stats don’t matter. Nobody needs stats.
You seem to believe that your statement is true while mine would not be, but it’s all subjective. You might believe that having the best stats are important. Just accept that whether you personally agree or not, I feel the exact same way about having the skin I want. Let me put it like this, if you gave me the choice between A: having the Sunrise GS skin, but having to equip it on an Exotic stat weapon, or B: having a stat-swapping Ascended-tier GS that was stuck in the default iron sword skin, I would choose A every single time. I take it you would choose B, if forced to choose.
It’s subjective which a player values more, and it’s ridiculous that you’re trying to “objectively” decide which rewards I “need,” when it always a subjective value. What is important is what would make the player happy.
You’ve had 40 pages of help, both in personal suggestions and in suggestions on your ‘easy mode’. You’re not here to be taught, so why would I be trying to teach you.
I’ve had absolutely no help, at least not from those dismissive of easy mode raids of the sort I’ve discussed. I’ve had people claiming to offer help, but these people were trying to help me be the player they would want me to be, one that buys into their systems of what is good and what is bad, rather than helping me to be the player I want to be. I’m sorry that I’m not drinking your Koolaide, but if you genuinely wanted to help me then you would be trying to help me accomplish the goals I want, rather than just trying to make me play the game how you would enjoy.
Why should it train people to do hard modes when you are the target audience and you will never do hard modes?
I’m only a portion of the target audience. The target audience would be a fairly broad swath of 50% or more of the total PvE players, and each will value certain aspects more than others. Personally, I don’t need it for training, but the factors that would make it useful for training are still aspects that I would enjoy, so they would make me happier to have them than not. Again, it’s like sparing in martial arts, maybe that person has no intention of ever having an actual full contact fight, but having the conditions that would help them in a full contact fight could still make the sparing more fun on its own merits.
I can use a home colonoscopy kit but that doesn’t mean I need one. Being able to use something or being able to use it more than someone else is not a justification for having or getting it.
This is a game. “Making players happy” is reason enough to do anything, so long as there is no compelling reason not to.
You don’t do hard content so you don’t need optimal stats so you don’t need to be able to easily swap to optimal stats.
So? It would still come in handy. And again, “hardcore” players can’t really use Legendary armor anyway because they wouldn’t be able to swap out Runes. They are so super-serious about their stats that if they wanted to swap stats on the fly, they’d also want to swap Runes on the fly, and would therefore prefer to have two full sets of Ascended armor to one stat-swapping Legendary. It’s the more casual players that benefit from stat-swapping more.
You have no need for it. You have want for it, but you don’t need it.
This is a game, nobody needs anything. Basing any argument on what a player “needs” is automatically failure. It’s about getting players what they want.
Yes but as I said skins don’t matter. Nobody needs skins.
Stats don’t matter. Nobody needs stats.
You seem to believe that your statement is true while mine would not be, but it’s all subjective. You might believe that having the best stats are important. Just accept that whether you personally agree or not, I feel the exact same way about having the skin I want. Let me put it like this, if you gave me the choice between A: having the Sunrise GS skin, but having to equip it on an Exotic stat weapon, or B: having a stat-swapping Ascended-tier GS that was stuck in the default iron sword skin, I would choose A every single time. I take it you would choose B, if forced to choose.
It’s subjective which a player values more, and it’s ridiculous that you’re trying to “objectively” decide which rewards I “need,” when it always a subjective value. What is important is what would make the player happy.
You’ve had 40 pages of help, both in personal suggestions and in suggestions on your ‘easy mode’. You’re not here to be taught, so why would I be trying to teach you.
I’ve had absolutely no help, at least not from those dismissive of easy mode raids of the sort I’ve discussed. I’ve had people claiming to offer help, but these people were trying to help me be the player they would want me to be, one that buys into their systems of what is good and what is bad, rather than helping me to be the player I want to be. I’m sorry that I’m not drinking your Koolaide, but if you genuinely wanted to help me then you would be trying to help me accomplish the goals I want, rather than just trying to make me play the game how you would enjoy.
Why should it train people to do hard modes when you are the target audience and you will never do hard modes?
I’m only a portion of the target audience. The target audience would be a fairly broad swath of 50% or more of the total PvE players, and each will value certain aspects more than others. Personally, I don’t need it for training, but the factors that would make it useful for training are still aspects that I would enjoy, so they would make me happier to have them than not. Again, it’s like sparing in martial arts, maybe that person has no intention of ever having an actual full contact fight, but having the conditions that would help them in a full contact fight could still make the sparing more fun on its own merits.
Because making all players happy and ignore the costs of it worked well in other games right?
It never worked in any game if everybody can see and get everything. WoW had the biggest amount of new players during WotLK while having the lowest net growth. WotLK was the expansion with a new design direction which kittened off many of the old players and only worked for them with the good reputation from classic and BC and the insane popularity of Blizzard/Warcraft in general.
Easier content gets finished faster, players getting faster bored and leave the game earlier and many of them won’t return. Making everything accessible or too accessible looks fine for a short period and hurts the game in the long run.
It’s the same with the new rewards. It’s too much now and people will complain again in 2-3 weeks.
Easier content gets finished faster, players getting faster bored and leave the game earlier and many of them won’t return. Making everything accessible or too accessible looks fine for a short period and hurts the game in the long run.
Again, the easy mode would take longer than the harder mode. So any discussion of “people will finish it faster and quit” would apply to hard mode, not easy mode.
This is a game. “Making players happy” is reason enough to do anything, so long as there is no compelling reason not to.
No, games are supposed to be fun, and arguably challenging and competitive. I know a lot of great games that don’t make you happy.
If you’re looking for something to make you happy I would probably recommend an intimate relationship, building a family, or religion.
So? It would still come in handy.
Not an argument for you to get it.
And again, “hardcore” players can’t really use Legendary armor anyway because they wouldn’t be able to swap out Runes. They are so super-serious about their stats that if they wanted to swap stats on the fly, they’d also want to swap Runes on the fly, and would therefore prefer to have two full sets of Ascended armor to one stat-swapping Legendary.
Not an argument for you to get it. Talking about how other people don’t need it doesn’t make you deserving of it.
It’s the more casual players that benefit from stat-swapping more.
That’s still no argument for you getting it.
You’re fundamentally missing the point. Legendary armor’s behind raids because raids are hard and harder content gets better rewards. You don’t get better rewards just because you want them. You get them because you earn them.
This is a game, nobody needs anything. Basing any argument on what a player “needs” is automatically failure. It’s about getting players what they want.
Stats don’t matter. Nobody needs stats.
Because need has specific meaning in context of an MMO. You need X to get the social license to get to Y content.
You need ascended/exotic gear to get the social license to get into raids. If you have rares or anything less, you will be laughed out.
If Legendary armor were required to reach a piece of content, I’d be happy to say it should be more readily available. It is not, therefore I do not think it should be more readily available. It’s like saying Molten Jetpack should be more accessible. That’s nonsense.
You seem to believe that your statement is true while mine would not be, but it’s all subjective. You might believe that having the best stats are important.
No sorry, I’m not using my own words. I’m using ANet’s. They’ve specifically and repeatedly said that you should get to stat cap without too much issue. Even with Ascended armor this is still the case, there are no difficulty hurdles to reaching stat cap. Even AR for deep fractals is not difficult, just requires money.
Just accept that whether you personally agree or not, I feel the exact same way about having the skin I want.
No you haven’t given a rational argument for why you should have a skin beyond gimme.
Let me put it like this, if you gave me the choice between A: having the Sunrise GS skin, but having to equip it on an Exotic stat weapon, or B: having a stat-swapping Ascended-tier GS that was stuck in the default iron sword skin, I would choose A every single time. I take it you would choose B, if forced to choose.
No I have an ascended GS already with a nice skin, so I wouldn’t need a cheapo ascended weapon. I mean I’ll still take it for salvaging I guess.
This is a non-argument. It has no bearing on the discussion, it’s just another red herring, another one of your silly ‘bets’.
It’s subjective which a player values more, and it’s ridiculous that you’re trying to “objectively” decide which rewards I “need,” when it always a subjective value. What is important is what would make the player happy.
No, I’ve laid out a pretty straightforward definition of need. Missing a skin won’t prevent you from obtaining social license in 99% of circumstances. Missing stats will.
I’ve had absolutely no help, at least not from those dismissive of easy mode raids of the sort I’ve discussed. I’ve had people claiming to offer help, but these people were trying to help me be the player they would want me to be, one that buys into their systems of what is good and what is bad, rather than helping me to be the player I want to be.
So basically subjective wishy washiness.
I’m sorry that I’m not drinking your Koolaide
Took the words right out of my fingers.
but if you genuinely wanted to help me then you would be trying to help me accomplish the goals I want, rather than just trying to make me play the game how you would enjoy.
What, you want me to find you a group? You want me to carry you through raids?
I’m not gonna cowtow to bad arguments for you if that’s what you mean. If you want me to give you practical advice for building your character or finding a raid group, sure, I can do that.
I’m only a portion of the target audience.
You have explicitly said that your standards are the target difficulty level. You are the exact target.
Again, the easy mode would take longer than the harder mode. So any discussion of “people will finish it faster and quit” would apply to hard mode, not easy mode.
Not what he said. He’s talking about the content itself, not the rewards. If the raid is easy and people are targeting it to complete the story or the experience and they don’t care about the rewards, they will spend 45 minutes in scrub mode when they might spend 45 hours in hard mode.
You’re so fixated on the rewards of the content that you are willing to misread someone’s post for the sake of seeking your sugar rush.
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
Easier content gets finished faster, players getting faster bored and leave the game earlier and many of them won’t return. Making everything accessible or too accessible looks fine for a short period and hurts the game in the long run.
Again, the easy mode would take longer than the harder mode. So any discussion of “people will finish it faster and quit” would apply to hard mode, not easy mode.
You make the same mistake as Blizzard. The loot is not the content, it’s the reward for beating the content and an incentive to repeat it. The content in raids are the bosses/boss fights, which get beaten faster in an easy mode.
Most players aren’t interestet in that kind of content at all or just want to see it and are gone after they killed all bosses atleast once.
(edited by Miellyn.6847)
No, games are supposed to be fun, and arguably challenging and competitive. I know a lot of great games that don’t make you happy.
The “challenging and competitive” parts of them are only subjectively a part of having fun. Some people have fun with challenge and completion. Some do not. It’s important to offer challenge and competition for those players that enjoy it, but also to accept that what is a “fun” challenge to some is a “punishment” to others, and that those in the latter group should not be expected to participate in that content, should not be penalized for not participating in it. High challenge content should ONLY be for players that enjoy it, and those players who do not enjoy it should have NO reason to participate in it.
Ohoni.6057:
So? It would still come in handy.
Not an argument for you to get it.
Why would anyone need a better argument than that?
Not an argument for you to get it. Talking about how other people don’t need it doesn’t make you deserving of it.
But the point is that I’m no less deserving of it than they are.
Legendary armor’s behind raids because raids are hard and harder content gets better rewards.
That’s a bit of a tautology though, it is that way because you insist that it’s that way. I could just as easily say “Legendary armor’s behind kegbrawl because kegbrawl throws beer kegs around and beer keg-based content gets better rewards.” There’s absolutely no reason why harder content would necessitate better rewards.
Because need has specific meaning in context of an MMO. You need X to get the social license to get to Y content.
You need ascended/exotic gear to get the social license to get into raids. If you have rares or anything less, you will be laughed out.
And you need Legendary armor to wear the legendary armor skins, which is more important to many people than being able to get into raids. YOU place a value on being able to get into hard mode raids, do not assume that this is some objective reality.
It’s like saying Molten Jetpack should be more accessible. That’s nonsense.
Why?
No sorry, I’m not using my own words. I’m using ANet’s. They’ve specifically and repeatedly said that you should get to stat cap without too much issue.
That was before they added Ascended armor and made a complete lie of that statement. It hasn’t been valid in over three years now.
Even AR for deep fractals is not difficult, just requires money.
And by that standard getting Legendary armor is not difficult, it just requires money as well. But accumulating massive amounts of money is difficult to many players.
No you haven’t given a rational argument for why you should have a skin beyond gimme.
Nor have you given me a reason to need one. It’s a game, the goal is to have fun.
No I have an ascended GS already with a nice skin, so I wouldn’t need a cheapo ascended weapon. I mean I’ll still take it for salvaging I guess.
You miss the point of the example. I’m saying if “none of the above” were not an option, if you were absolutely forced into having either the Legendary skin of your choice on an Exotic quality weapon, OR having a stat-swappable ascended weapon that could only take the appearance of the default iron sword, and “neither” was not an option, then I have the feeling you would take the stats rather than the skin. I would do the opposite. You have to understand that the choices that you would make are not the choices everyone would make.The qualities in an item that you value are not universally, objectively superior qualities, they are just qualities that you subjectively place higher value on.
I’m just trying to help you understand that there exist in the world people who are different than yourself.
No, I’ve laid out a pretty straightforward definition of need. Missing a skin won’t prevent you from obtaining social license in 99% of circumstances. Missing stats will.
And the value of that social license is also subjective.
What, you want me to find you a group? You want me to carry you through raids?
I’m not gonna cowtow to bad arguments for you if that’s what you mean. If you want me to give you practical advice for building your character or finding a raid group, sure, I can do that.
Again, no. That would all be helping YOU to shape me into the sort of player you want me to be, the sort of player that embraces hard mode raids for what they are, rather than asking for something different. That would do nothing to help me play how I want to play, happily enjoying an easier, less frustrating version of the content.
If you go into a steakhouse, and order a steak, and the waiter keeps offering ways that they could provide a vegan steak option that they insist you would enjoy just as much as the steak that you ordered, that is still not helping you, that is them trying to help their own agenda in the guise of helping you, or at least just trying to shut you up about what you’re actually ordering.
You have explicitly said that your standards are the target difficulty level. You are the exact target.
Not as an individual, as a member of the player body. Again, if I thought for a second that what I propose was about me alone, I would not want them to do anything about it.
Not what he said. He’s talking about the content itself, not the rewards. If the raid is easy and people are targeting it to complete the story or the experience and they don’t care about the rewards, they will spend 45 minutes in scrub mode when they might spend 45 hours in hard mode.
No.
That’s just silly.
If they don’t care about the rewards and just want the story, they would try hard mode and give up after a few tries and just watch a Youtube video. No rational person would put themselves through tens of hours of torture over something like that when Youtube is just a click away. And if they want the actual experience of clearing the hard mode encounter, then easy mode would not satisfy that, they would still do hard mode anyway. I’d like to experience the story too, but I’m not masochist enough to put myself through the existing raids to do it.
Easy mode is for people who would NEVER complete hard mode, not ever, at all. These are not people who would “play more” if hard mode were the only option, these are people who would not be playing it at all while hard mode is the only option. Now with the potential to train in easy mode, some of these players might advance through to hard mode over time, but not all, and that’s totally ok.
But basically there are no players that would be raiding less with easy mode, it would entirely be players playing more.
The content in raids are the bosses/boss fights, which get beaten faster in an easy mode.
Any player who beats Easy mode once, cries “DONE!” and moves on to something else, is not a player who would EVER clear hard mode, or spend more than a couple hours trying. This is a nonexistent player you’re referencing.
Easy mode is for people who would NEVER complete hard mode, not ever, at all. These are not people who would “play more” if hard mode were the only option, these are people who would not be playing it at all while hard mode is the only option. Now with the potential to train in easy mode, some of these players might advance through to hard mode over time, but not all, and that’s totally ok.
But basically there are no players that would be raiding less with easy mode, it would entirely be players playing more.
An easy mode would not just attract players that wouldn’t run the content at all. It also attracts players that use the path of least resistance if you add the same loot, removing them from the normal raid pool.
And there is no learning effect in an easy mode. If they can ignore mechanics there, they will ignore them. If you can’t ignore them there is no point for an easy mode.
The content in raids are the bosses/boss fights, which get beaten faster in an easy mode.
Any player who beats Easy mode once, cries “DONE!” and moves on to something else, is not a player who would EVER clear hard mode, or spend more than a couple hours trying. This is a nonexistent player you’re referencing.
Yes it could be a player who would run normal mode.
There is actually no reason to run Salvation Pass more than once if you just want rewards, you can get your shard cap in Spirit Vale and get everything you need for the legendary armor collection with your first kill. You can buy the rest with shards.
And most players in easy mode will do this, unless you add the same rewards which will destroy the normal raiding scene.
(edited by Miellyn.6847)
An easy mode would not just attract players that wouldn’t run the content at all. It also attracts players that use the path of least resistance if you add the same loot, removing them from the normal raid pool.
If this is true, then these players never belonged to the normal raid pool in the first place, they just didn’t have options before. They were not yours to own.
And there is no learning effect in an easy mode. If they can ignore mechanics there, they will ignore them. If you can’t ignore them there is no point for an easy mode.
Again, just because you can ignore mechanics doesn’t mean you have to. If you’re doing padded sparing, you can choose to completely ignore punches to the face, they will not hurt you either way, but if you go into it intending to improve your combat skills, then you will not ignore them, you’ll avoid getting hit just as in a full contact match, the only difference being that when you fail you don’t get a concussion.
The “challenging and competitive” parts of them are only subjectively a part of having fun. Some people have fun with challenge and completion. Some do not. It’s important to offer challenge and competition for those players that enjoy it, but also to accept that what is a “fun” challenge to some is a “punishment” to others, and that those in the latter group should not be expected to participate in that content, should not be penalized for not participating in it. High challenge content should ONLY be for players that enjoy it, and those players who do not enjoy it should have NO reason to participate in it.
Misdirection.
You didn’t say that fun was the goal, in which case I would agree.
You said that it would make you happy, but that is not the goal.
Why would anyone need a better argument than that?
Because you’re missing the point of rewards.
They reward you for things.
Legendary armor rewards you for gettin gud and doing raids.
But the point is that I’m no less deserving of it than they are.
No they’re more deserving than you because they’re clearing the current, harder targets which you aren’t even willing to try.
That’s a bit of a tautology though, it is that way because you insist that it’s that way. I could just as easily say “Legendary armor’s behind kegbrawl because kegbrawl throws beer kegs around and beer keg-based content gets better rewards.” There’s absolutely no reason why harder content would necessitate better rewards.
No, it isn’t a tautology. I’ve given you plenty of reasons why hard content should necessitate unique and/or better rewards. Don’t stretch so far, you’ll pull a muscle.
And you need Legendary armor to wear the legendary armor skins, which is more important to many people than being able to get into raids. YOU place a value on being able to get into hard mode raids, do not assume that this is some objective reality.
No, ANet places a value on being able to get into content, up to and including hard mode raids.
Why?
Why is it nonsense?
Because it’s a reward, not a content blocker.
That was before they added Ascended armor and made a complete lie of that statement. It hasn’t been valid in over three years now.
Nah it’s still easy.
And by that standard getting Legendary armor is not difficult, it just requires money as well. But accumulating massive amounts of money is difficult to many players.
No it isn’t. Nothing in the game says “nope you can’t save any more money up”.
Nor have you given me a reason to need one. It’s a game, the goal is to have fun.
I haven’t given you a reason to need a reason? lol
You miss the point of the example.
No I get the point it’s just a silly example.
The qualities in an item that you value are not universally, objectively superior qualities, they are just qualities that you subjectively place higher value on.
I dunno dude. I think I could make some objective assessments on how superior higher stats are. Maybe some empirical testing.
I’m just trying to help you understand that there exist in the world people who are different than yourself.
Oh gosh!
I never thought of that before!
I thought everyone was a perfect clone of me with the same desires and needs and wants!
I have seen the light. Thankyou Ohoni!
And the value of that social license is also subjective.
No it’s pretty objective. It’s an MMO. Managing social interactions is kind of how you do the entire thing.
Again, no. That would all be helping YOU to shape me into the sort of player you want me to be, the sort of player that embraces hard mode raids for what they are, rather than asking for something different. That would do nothing to help me play how I want to play, happily enjoying an easier, less frustrating version of the content.
An easier, less frustrating version of the content exists.
Youtube
If you go into a steakhouse, and order a steak, and the waiter keeps offering ways that they could provide a vegan steak option that they insist you would enjoy just as much as the steak that you ordered, that is still not helping you, that is them trying to help their own agenda in the guise of helping you, or at least just trying to shut you up about what you’re actually ordering.
I would leave.
If you think ANet is providing too much content that you don’t like, then leave.
If you think that I am not providing helpful words, then stop responding and/or leave.
Not as an individual, as a member of the player body. Again, if I thought for a second that what I propose was about me alone, I would not want them to do anything about it.
Oh. Personally when I provide suggestions or feedback I am very careful to ensure that it is my opinions and experiences that I am providing, and that I’m not speaking for everyone else.
Hint hint.
No.
That’s just silly.
I don’t know why you’re addressing me. Miellyn made the argument. You should respond directly to them.
they’re right, you know
Any player who beats Easy mode once, cries “DONE!” and moves on to something else, is not a player who would EVER clear hard mode, or spend more than a couple hours trying. This is a nonexistent player you’re referencing.
No, I do this. I killed M Archi for the achievement- not just the mechanical achievement, the actual achievement. I cleared Aetherpath because it was new content and I wanted to do it.
Whatever happened to “people are different”? It was such a beautiful, shining message. You really opened my eyes but now you are turning your back on it.
If this is true, then these players never belonged to the normal raid pool in the first place, they just didn’t have options before. They were not yours to own.
Man who is not the target of raids decides which people belong where.
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