Suggestion for Raids - Difficulty Levels [merged]
If you don’t care about the easy mode and don’t intend to play it then why the kitten does it matter whether you think whether it has replay value or not? the rest of 99% of payer base will find plenty of replay value there including me.
And if you wanna talk about wasting resources how about wasting numerous resources and devs on content only 1% of the playerbase plays. If you ask me that IS an actual waste of resources besides it wouldn’t take “significant amount of time” away from the dev team the core mechanics and content has already been developed they just need to rebalance it around smaller squad size. And even if it does takes time i would say that’s an worthwhile endeavour considering that 99% playerbase benefit from it.
In essence all i hear form you elitists is “you can’t have this piece of cake cuz i’m on a diet”. Dont worry you we aren’t asking you special little snowflakes to come down to our lowly level you can stay in your special little corner. All we ask is for an easy mode where the other 99% of players can get in and enjoy without waiting for hours staring at the lfg.
Ranting when you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about just makes you look foolish. It might be wise to avoid doing that in the future
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I have alot to say about this but, I’m not ready to “Unload” it right now, but I do make the effort to learn, gear up all classes according to recommendations on metabattle and the net, and yet, I sit for hours searching for Raids that will take me, so far very little luck.
I’m a newish player, but even so fully ascended on several classes and I take the time to play all content in Raid ready gear/skills etc so that I’m prepared and accustomed to using those when the time comes.
To pay for an expansion and then never get to that area is chapping me really bad.
I belong to 5 guilds, 2 are very large and require TS to do the Raid,
I’m deaf, since I can’t hear, TS is not doable for me
the 3 others are small and the few runs we’ve done people quit as time constraints after wiping many times is more then Casual players have time for
This leaves me very frustrated, I have the motive and yet can’t achieve access which rewards masteries I desperately need, insert wry laugh
An easy mode or even a Raid that allows much larger groups so that some inexperienced can join in would be nice
This way that “Perfect” team is met, and others can be allowed in to experience the success and access areas in HoT that they Paid for
Just my 2 cents
Cheers
This has to have been suggested before right?
Would love to see it though. Even no rewards… just make titles for each raid. Story mode has a lesser named title like “White Mantle Slayer” while the real raid has a more pronounced title like “Legendary White Mantle Slayer”. Let it just give random dungeon tokens or something… whatever.
The reason I’d like this is mostly to play through with my more casual friends in a less stressful environment. Going through slow and just paying attention to the story would be great too.
Slow down and smell the pixels.
Here’s a couple of reasons to oppose an easy mode, even if you never play it:
Easy and medium instanced group content already exists in dungeons and raids. This content is more amenable to easy modes than raids.
That’s not a reason to oppose easy mode raids.
Besides, i don’t really see any new dungeons around. Do you?
If you are the type of player that plays content at varying difficulties, it’s much better to have different content at an easier level than easy mode raids. I’d rather play fractals + dungeons + raids. I would never do raid + easy mode raid.
Again, not a reason to oppose them. It’s not like anyone would force you to play easy mode raids – you could keep playing hard mode only.
Easy mode raids split the player base.
Raids split the playerbase. But if you mean split the group of raiders then that is true, but only if in the current group there are people that dislike the current form and would rather get the stuff/lore/whatever in more approachable form.
As someone who raids, it’s preferable to have a larger player pool.
Sure. But the game shouldn’t make people play the content they dislike only because you want someone to play with.
It would be a waste of developer resources. It would either take away from raid development, or take away from dungeon/fractal/living world development. The latter content aligns more closely with the values of people who like easy mode.
Considering how small the raid team is, and how the raids do not really take anything away from the rest of the game (so, something that keeps getting brought up by raiders in every raid thread lately), creating an easy mode version should take even less effort, and thus have even less impact on the rest of the content (including raids).
Replay value has nothing to do with challenge at all, it’s about rewards.
I mean yeah for an easy mode it would of course be all about the reward. But I don’t see a scenario in which an easy mode raid is replayable for rewards. If the rewards are good, then you’ve just created an incentive for “regular mode” raiders to play easy mode, which is obviously stupid. If the rewards are bad, then no one will replay the content.
It is enough that the rewards are awarded at a slower rate than in hard mode. You can also use the fractal reward system, where completing hard mode would give you hard and easy mode rewards (players don’t usually do lower tier fractals today if they can do the higher tier ones – they do it only if they consider the higher tier to be too hard).
I have no idea if there is more casuals in the game than hardcore players.
That was generally true in all other MMO’s. In GW2, seeing as it is more casual than the average, it should be even more true.
We already made it very clear that taking resources to produce content twice for raids is already a waste (one of the main complaint you casuals have btw if you’ve forgotten),
For you, maybe. But then, i’m pretty sure that there are more people thinking that raids in their current form are a waste. If your opinion is a reason to stop easy mode raids from being implemented, it’s also a good enough reason to stop raids from being done at all.
And i’m pretty sure that’s not what you had in mind.
Artifically increasing the participation numbers isn’t not a good thing
See the above comment by Absurdo, and him wanting to artifically inflate number of raiders by not making easy mode available.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
By doing story content locked into group only activities it’s ANet’s way of saying they don’t want any player with children, work or other life issues from seeing the content.
Here’s a couple of reasons to oppose an easy mode, even if you never play it:
Easy and medium instanced group content already exists in dungeons and raids. This content is more amenable to easy modes than raids.
That’s not a reason to oppose easy mode raids.
Besides, i don’t really see any new dungeons around. Do you?
Yes there is. Raids are in a good spot for the majority of players who want to try them. We don’t need an easy mode for people that never played it and just complain about them because they are raids. People cleared it with 4h a week raiding.
New fractals will come this year.
If you are the type of player that plays content at varying difficulties, it’s much better to have different content at an easier level than easy mode raids. I’d rather play fractals + dungeons + raids. I would never do raid + easy mode raid.
Again, not a reason to oppose them. It’s not like anyone would force you to play easy mode raids – you could keep playing hard mode only.
Easy mode raids split the player base.
Raids split the playerbase. But if you mean split the group of raiders then that is true, but only if in the current group there are people that dislike the current form and would rather get the stuff/lore/whatever in more approachable form.
ArenaNet is working on ways to make the raid story accessible in other ways. There is also a summery at the start of wing 3 for wing 1 and 2.
Every content splits the playerbase as long as not 100% play it. Strawman argument.
You will split the current group if any of the rewards of normal mode will appear in the easy mode. More magnetite shards will crash the ascended market.
If you award normal story mode rewards it will be played once and never again.
As someone who raids, it’s preferable to have a larger player pool.
Sure. But the game shouldn’t make people play the content they dislike only because you want someone to play with.
Nobody forces you to do raids.
It would be a waste of developer resources. It would either take away from raid development, or take away from dungeon/fractal/living world development. The latter content aligns more closely with the values of people who like easy mode.
Considering how small the raid team is, and how the raids do not really take anything away from the rest of the game (so, something that keeps getting brought up by raiders in every raid thread lately), creating an easy mode version should take even less effort, and thus have even less impact on the rest of the content (including raids).
Developing an easy mode has a huge impact on raid development. The permanent team has only 5 member. And why is the effort reduced because there is a dedicated raid team? It makes it worse not better.
Replay value has nothing to do with challenge at all, it’s about rewards.
I mean yeah for an easy mode it would of course be all about the reward. But I don’t see a scenario in which an easy mode raid is replayable for rewards. If the rewards are good, then you’ve just created an incentive for “regular mode” raiders to play easy mode, which is obviously stupid. If the rewards are bad, then no one will replay the content.
It is enough that the rewards are awarded at a slower rate than in hard mode. You can also use the fractal reward system, where completing hard mode would give you hard and easy mode rewards (players don’t usually do lower tier fractals today if they can do the higher tier ones – they do it only if they consider the higher tier to be too hard).
So legendary components and raid specific skins would only drop on the same difficulty they are know like golden fractal weapons and crafting reagents only on higher fractals?
I have no idea if there is more casuals in the game than hardcore players.
That was generally true in all other MMO’s. In GW2, seeing as it is more casual than the average, it should be even more true.
We already made it very clear that taking resources to produce content twice for raids is already a waste (one of the main complaint you casuals have btw if you’ve forgotten),
For you, maybe. But then, i’m pretty sure that there are more people thinking that raids in their current form are a waste. If your opinion is a reason to stop easy mode raids from being implemented, it’s also a good enough reason to stop raids from being done at all.
There are many people who think WvW or sPvP is a waste. Should we stop the development too?
Why think PvE players always they are entitled to get every piece of loot and see everything?
And i’m pretty sure that’s not what you had in mind.
Artifically increasing the participation numbers isn’t not a good thing
See the above comment by Absurdo, and him wanting to artifically inflate number of raiders by not making easy mode available.
So it’s a good thing that the easy mode raid doesn’t exist as it would lower the numbers?
Meena Wolfsgeist | Ranger
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant
Went through this plenty of times. If your time/work/family or any other element of your life does not allow you to experience raids that’s sadly your problem. Raids are meant to be ‘’elite/hard/advanced’’ PvE content (or w/e you would call them) and were created with the possibility of some people never achieving full completion.
Works same with me, as a PvE player, who will never experience all classes 150 ranked wins or rank 1000 in WvW.
[qT] Quantify – Hardcore PvE Guild
Why would u make easy mode raids? They were meant to be a hard core content not some open world event anyone with five minutes of time can do.
‘’I want to participate in PvP tournament final but its too hard, anet do smthn pls.’’
[qT] Quantify – Hardcore PvE Guild
That’s not a reason to oppose easy mode raids.
Besides, i don’t really see any new dungeons around. Do you?
Yes there is. Raids are in a good spot for the majority of players who want to try them.
Sure. So? It’s not like easy raids would be made for that group. And, funny that, Raids are not in a good spot for a majority of players that aren’t thrilled to play them as they are now. Care to guess which group is bigger?
We don’t need an easy mode for people that never played it
It’s for them to decide whether they need it, not for you.
Every content splits the playerbase as long as not 100% play it. Strawman argument.
Notice, that it was Absurdo that used it.
You will split the current group if any of the rewards of normal mode will appear in the easy mode.
Only if among the current raiders there are people that would prefer easy mode. And if they would prefer the easy mode, then trying to deny them that choice just so you have more people to play with is selfish.
More magnetite shards will crash the ascended market.
Oh? And here i heard just recently raiders arguing hard that ascended gain through magnetites is sooo slooooooow that it has absolutely no impact on anything.
If you award normal story mode rewards it will be played once and never again.
Perhaps. then either the people will move on to hard mode raids (a gain for raiders), or will stop raiding (which will mean they would have stopped raiding anyway at that point, or would have never tried to raid at all). So, at worst it is no loss for the raiding community, but at best it may be a gain.
Nobody forces you to do raids.
That wasn’t the point, and you know it.
Developing an easy mode has a huge impact on raid development. The permanent team has only 5 member.
Raiders keep saying that since it’s only 5 people, it has no impact on the rest of the game. Well, if having 5 people do raids instead of other things has no visible impact, then assigning 2 more to tweak existing raids into easy mode will be even less visible.
And why is the effort reduced because there is a dedicated raid team? It makes it worse not better.
Uh, you might want to read what you quoted again. I was pointing out, that making a different difficulty to an already existing raid requires less effort than making that raid from scratch (because you can reuse a lot of assets that are already done).
So legendary components and raid specific skins would only drop on the same difficulty they are know like golden fractal weapons and crafting reagents only on higher fractals?
Nope, they would just have lower drop chance on lower difficulty. Just as ascended gear and gold skins can drop at tiers below t4.
There are many people who think WvW or sPvP is a waste. Should we stop the development too?
Good that you support my argument. Yes, we shouldn’t. Just as we shouldn’t stop the development of easy mode raids just because people not interested in that mode would consider it a waste.
See the above comment by Absurdo, and him wanting to artifically inflate number of raiders by not making easy mode available.
So it’s a good thing that the easy mode raid doesn’t exist as it would lower the numbers?
Nah, i debunked that point of Absurdo already. And you yourself have called it a strawman argument, so i’m not sure why are you using it now.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Sure. So? It’s not like easy raids would be made for that group. And, funny that, Raids are not in a good spot for a majority of players that aren’t thrilled to play them as they are now. Care to guess which group is bigger?
Yes, the group who tried them is most likely bigger than people complaining about raids and have never entered them.
There is also a third group which is bigger than the other two combined:
The people who just don’t care about raids. They won’t enter it even with the easy mode and they are the majority.
It’s for them to decide whether they need it, not for you.
You can’t complain about something is too hard or time consuming if you never tried it.
Only if among the current raiders there are people that would prefer easy mode. And if they would prefer the easy mode, then trying to deny them that choice just so you have more people to play with is selfish.
Path of least resistance. Only because people prefer it, doesn’t mean you have to support it.
Oh? And here i heard just recently raiders arguing hard that ascended gain through magnetites is sooo slooooooow that it has absolutely no impact on anything.
If i remember correctly it was about open world vs raids. Raids are slow in comparison to crafting and you also pay gold and shards.
But the shards have an effect on the ascended materials market. That’s why I don’t support an increase of the shard cap.
Perhaps. then either the people will move on to hard mode raids (a gain for raiders), or will stop raiding (which will mean they would have stopped raiding anyway at that point, or would have never tried to raid at all). So, at worst it is no loss for the raiding community, but at best it may be a gain.
And a loss of development ressources. People who want to try it will try it anyway. There are enough training runs advertised in the forum.
Raiders keep saying that since it’s only 5 people, it has no impact on the rest of the game. Well, if having 5 people do raids instead of other things has no visible impact, then assigning 2 more to tweak existing raids into easy mode will be even less visible.
Taking 40% of the raid team to develop an easy mode will result in a huge delay for further raid content.
Uh, you might want to read what you quoted again. I was pointing out, that making a different difficulty to an already existing raid requires less effort than making that raid from scratch (because you can reuse a lot of assets that are already done).
Nobody knows the effort of making an easy mode and most of the work is designing the encounters. Most people want easier mechanics for an easy mode and thats a huge junk of work.
Nope, they would just have lower drop chance on lower difficulty. Just as ascended gear and gold skins can drop at tiers below t4.
Golden weapons, armor and accessories only drop on T3+. Ascended weapons, rings on T2+.
Some suggested the fractal system with T3 as the current difficulty and T4 above. So no legendary components for an easy mode.
And the fact that most supporters of the easy mode don’t want to accept that you can’t have everything there just amplifies that it’s not about seeing the content but the rewards for less effort.
Good that you support my argument. Yes, we shouldn’t. Just as we shouldn’t stop the development of easy mode raids just because people not interested in that mode would consider it a waste.
How does it support your argument? Is there WvW or sPvP with reduced difficulty or different ruleset?
It is an argument against the people who say easy mode or scrap them.
There are unique rewards in WvW and sPvP. Either you play it or don’t get them.
Nah, i debunked that point of Absurdo already. And you yourself have called it a strawman argument, so i’m not sure why are you using it now.
It was more against the semantic. Easy mode raid would still be considered as a raid by most players. So people who play it are raiders. How can he inflate the numbers with not wanting an easy mode?
Meena Wolfsgeist | Ranger
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant
Why would u make easy mode raids? They were meant to be a hard core content not some open world event anyone with five minutes of time can do.
‘’I want to participate in PvP tournament final but its too hard, anet do smthn pls.’’
SWTOR’s story mode raids are there because they put a lot of story inside the raid content. They also allowed people to progress from tactical flashpoint(faceroll)>hardmode flashpoint>storymode raid>hardmode raid>nightmare raid(sadly no longer exists).
Don’t get me wrong through, storymode and nightmare were worlds apart with the mechanics being broadly the same, aside from a misstep in NiM would you/party. Also, most players accepted that they would never be able to complete NiM(or even hard for some) so despite bosses in those modes having special drops nobody complained…somehow I can’t see that happening here.
splits the community
gives anet less options when it comes to managing mechanics (easy mode mechanics need to be similar to hard mode or they aren’t the same fight)
increases the amount of work required by anet
creates a reward split which is especially dangerous in GW2 with rewards being viable for roughly forever
has no tangible advantage over creating a learning curve spread across multiple instanceseasy mode+hard mode makes sense in other games because those raids are expected to ‘time out’ with the release of the next tier or expac or w/e, so people will get frustrated if they can’t get through the content in that time. gw2 is explicitly designed such that content never goes out of date, though, so the core reason to do it doesn’t really exist
For some reason, fractals have exactly same thing and don’t have any of your “problems”.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
For some reason, fractals have exactly same thing and don’t have any of your “problems”.
Au contraire, Fractal development is a much slower beast than raids by a lot precisely because raid content doesn’t have difficulty scaling. If their new Fractal content release track record weren’t already proof enough of that, I don’t know what is. Having to balance the entire raid twice for two entirely different groups of players along with the other necessary interface and reward changes is a massive undertaking.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
For some reason, fractals have exactly same thing and don’t have any of your “problems”.
1. Fractals are very short content, not comparable to a raid at all.
2. Fractals were implemented years ago with the exact scaling system as we have it now. The question is therefore: Why are there no fractals since the last update, was it 2013? What is the reason why we still don’t have new ones but we can have raids. My guess is that it was way easier to create new content/maps than to go into the fractal system and build in some new ones. That also fits to the restructuring of the company and the dungeon problem where we haven’t seen any important changes or bugfixing since abandoning the dungeon team years ago. You need to have the know-how. When it’s gone like for dungeons it is almost impossible to restructure it without putting too much time into it and burning a lot of money.
3. T1-2 fractals are hardly practice ground. They are more like an introduction and in the future we will see less players here if there’s no daily.
4. T4 fractals are too easy and too rewarding.
And that is a problem but sure, not for the big amount of GW2 players that are going for the loot. Are they challenging? No, not at all, only if you have some of the so called 1-clickers that haven’t practiced the lower ones and constantly fail the easiest mechanics leading to a longer run for 4 ppl.
If you want to be taken seriously, that cannnot and must not be your wish for raids!
5. It was already said: A story mode of raid won’t calm down the complainers because the first thing they will criticize is the lore or story which is skinny implemented. It’s there but far away from dungeons.
Also, if the rewards are too low, ppl will still complain and this content will be played a couple of times and then left aside like LS2. If the rewards are too high, the usual raid would be devaluated to oblivion.
The current rewards aren’t that good I bet that the critics who will try raids out will be disappointed about the rewards as they are now because they won’t see numbers like in AB multiloot, fractals, SW or other farm methods.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
Au contraire, Fractal development is a much slower beast than raids by a lot precisely because raid content doesn’t have difficulty scaling. If their new Fractal content release track record weren’t already proof enough of that, I don’t know what is. Having to balance the entire raid twice for two entirely different groups of players along with the other necessary interface and reward changes is a massive undertaking.
We can see how Blizzard doing exactly same thing for balancing various difficulties for raids, and its not something very different from original encounter. More generous enrage timers, less damage overall, less boss health. Encounters are already balanced and tested, reducing their difficulty requires only some numbers tuning.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
We can see how Blizzard doing exactly same thing for balancing various difficulties for raids, and its not something very different from original encounter. More generous enrage timers, less damage overall, less boss health. Encounters are already balanced and tested, reducing their difficulty requires only some numbers tuning.
I hate to state the obvious, but ANet is not Blizzard. ANet’s architecture supports some things that are very hard for Blizzard, and vice versa.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
I have yet to finish a raid wing and yet I hope ANet doesn’t make it easier.
It’s already possible to do raids casually, if you’re skilled enough. It’s designed for mid-size groups; the game already has plenty of content accessible for 2-person or 5-person groups.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Every content splits the playerbase as long as not 100% play it. Strawman argument.
Notice, that it was Absurdo that used it.
This point is much more subtle than you’re giving me credit for. I’m not talking about splitting the player base among people who raid / don’t raid. I’m talking about splitting the player base among possible raiders.
I’m going to make up numbers for a sec. Let’s say there are 100 raiders across all skill levels – low, average, and high.
Now let’s say easy mode comes out. I’m going to ignore for a sec players that easy mode will bring in. The raiders spilt 50-50 across easy and normal mode. But they also split across skill levels. So only low skilled players play easy mode, and only high skilled players play normal mode. That makes easy mode harder, because the groups won’t be as skilled. It also exposes new players to less advanced tactics. And while it makes hard mode easier, the player pool becomes much smaller, making the groups much harder to form and risking stagnation.
The same holds true if easy mode attracts new players. But now easy mode is even worse off — new players are grouped with low skilled players, resulting in harder encounters.
And this is only of the rewards are balanced. If they’re overtuned towards easy mode, then the hard mode player base even further, and there’s no incentive to improve. If they’re overtuned towards hard mode, then players would only complete it once. As a new player interested in raids, you would be better off learning the real thing. It turns into a T4 fractal situation — the only reason to run the lower tiers is if you’re new or can’t run T4. This makes the lower tier fractals harder because the groups are worse.
Instead, it’s much healthier for the game long term if all skill levels are playing the same raid. It’s worked incredibly well for dungeons — four year old content that players still complete. Recall the early days of GW2, when all the dungeons were difficult. Then people learned the encounters. Then the experts started speed runs. Then those tactics permeated into all runs because the experts also played with medium and low skilled players. And now, most dungeoneers are medium or high skilled. And new players, who want to learn, are grouped with these players.
The same thing is already happening to raids. There are countless training runs. Even in normal runs, the enrage timers are not so tight that the experienced players can teach and carry one or two newer players. And everyone is better off — raiders get more people to play with, and new people learn the encounter.
TL;DR — One difficulty level promotes a diversity of skill levels, which is better for the game long term.
I have no desire to argue point-by-point about this topic. Maybe others do. I find the most productive discussion starts with first principles, which is why I try to list the “30 second elevator pitch” in most of my posts. When you see the easy moders try to do this, their argument just seems wrong from the get-go.
I don’t mean to straw man, but these seem to be the their first principles (or some combination):
1. All content must be complete-able or mirrored at a low skill level.
2. Hard content cannot have unique or better rewards.
3. Any lore elements, no matter how minor, must be complete-able at a low skill level.
I just don’t think this game mirrors those principles. Here are mine:
1. It’s best to have a diversity of content, easy, medium, and hard.
2. It’s ok to have unique skins as rewards for hard content.
3. It’s ok to have hard content have better rewards, but stat-related items should be attainable from a variety of sources.
4. Lore should never come before gameplay.
Best of luck in the new raid. I would note, again, that this is the most exciting time to hop in because no one knows what they’re doing.
I can’t comprehend why you’d try to change the difficulty of a single wing instead and disappoint both groups, instead of having two levels of challenge.
Speak for yourself, its was easier than i expected, but i am not disappointed.
Chaos | Death And Taxes [DnT]
The idea of raids having to be the most difficult content in the game is based on preconceived notions from other games (and it isn’t necessarily true in those games).
A raid is a 10 player instance. That is all it is. It is another place for us to play the game. Designing it for a small percentage of pve players makes no sense, imo.
I think the most legit argument against a casual mode in raids is the developer time argument. Unfortunately, the only ones that can speak to this point are the developers. I can posit it isn’t an issue and someone else can posit that it is. The truth is neither of us knows.
The idea that a casual mode raid would somehow split the raid community or harm the current raid structure doesn’t really makes sense to me. Ive seen a lot of people try raids and quickly decide that they weren’t worth the headache. To them, it just felt like a neverending cycle of fail with no reward (tangible or otherwise). They still wanted to raid (play interesting content with 9 other people), but did not like the time and detail commitment involved.
A lower difficulty raid would enhance the raid pool in two ways. First, it would give the people I discuss above a place to ease into raiding – still seeing some success while they learn the basics of the mechanics in a less demanding setting that offered some minor reward (could be very minor).
Second, it would offer a place for higher groups to provide training and it would offer guild leaders like myself a place to quickly take people from my guild into a fun activity (and fun should still be important, even in raids).
To the idea of gameplay before lore or lore before gameplay, different people weigh the importance of these things differently – which is the entire reason different tiers of difficulty are needed. That is just common sense.
For the record, if the difficulty were on par with something like Aetherpath (which I think is some of the best designed content in the game), I would be fully behind it. The fights there were designed to reward skill and teamwork without excluding builds, armor sets, etc. There was no reliance on artificial barriers such as enrage timers – which only serve to enforce stricter meta builds (which, imo, hurts gameplay diversity, but that is another topic altogether). If raids were designed that way, yes they would eventually become faceroll for a lot of people, but they would still offer real challenge without the exclusion factors we see now.
Finally, to the point of weak strawmans and the general direction of these discussions – there are people on both sides that will always see the other side’s argument as weak. It is because they (we, because I am probably one of these people) go into reading opposing posts with a preconception and strong desire to make sure their voice is the one listened to.
The reality is there is no real right and wrong here – just two opposing viewpoints from people who play the game differently. Neither is out to destroy the game for anyone. They (again, we) just have strong feelings about how the game should feel. Try to keep that in mind, keep the discussions civil, and focus on making your points as clearly as possible – and, most importantly, if you feel someone is wrong, debate the ideas without making it personal – do not belittle them or how they want to play the game.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Why would u make easy mode raids? They were meant to be a hard core content not some open world event anyone with five minutes of time can do.
‘’I want to participate in PvP tournament final but its too hard, anet do smthn pls.’’
I want easy mode raids because I would enjoy playing them then. Right now, I don’t, so I stopped. I hope their metrics can capture people like me who tried them for a while and then stopped playing.
Also, they do have easy mode PvP — amber/emerald league divisions.
The idea of raids having to be the most difficult content in the game is based on preconceived notions from other games (and it isn’t necessarily true in those games).
A raid is a 10 player instance. That is all it is. It is another place for us to play the game. Designing it for a small percentage of pve players makes no sense, imo.
I think the most legit argument against a casual mode in raids is the developer time argument. Unfortunately, the only ones that can speak to this point are the developers. I can posit it isn’t an issue and someone else can posit that it is. The truth is neither of us knows.
The idea that a casual mode raid would somehow split the raid community or harm the current raid structure doesn’t really makes sense to me. Ive seen a lot of people try raids and quickly decide that they weren’t worth the headache. To them, it just felt like a neverending cycle of fail with no reward (tangible or otherwise). They still wanted to raid (play interesting content with 9 other people), but did not like the time and detail commitment involved.
A lower difficulty raid would enhance the raid pool in two ways. First, it would give the people I discuss above a place to ease into raiding – still seeing some success while they learn the basics of the mechanics in a less demanding setting that offered some minor reward (could be very minor).
Second, it would offer a place for higher groups to provide training and it would offer guild leaders like myself a place to quickly take people from my guild into a fun activity (and fun should still be important, even in raids).
To the idea of gameplay before lore or lore before gameplay, different people weigh the importance of these things differently – which is the entire reason different tiers of difficulty are needed. That is just common sense.
For the record, if the difficulty were on par with something like Aetherpath (which I think is some of the best designed content in the game), I would be fully behind it. The fights there were designed to reward skill and teamwork without excluding builds, armor sets, etc. There was no reliance on artificial barriers such as enrage timers – which only serve to enforce stricter meta builds (which, imo, hurts gameplay diversity, but that is another topic altogether). If raids were designed that way, yes they would eventually become faceroll for a lot of people, but they would still offer real challenge without the exclusion factors we see now.
Finally, to the point of weak strawmans and the general direction of these discussions – there are people on both sides that will always see the other side’s argument as weak. It is because they (we, because I am probably one of these people) go into reading opposing posts with a preconception and strong desire to make sure their voice is the one listened to.
The reality is there is no real right and wrong here – just two opposing viewpoints from people who play the game differently. Neither is out to destroy the game for anyone. They (again, we) just have strong feelings about how the game should feel. Try to keep that in mind, keep the discussions civil, and focus on making your points as clearly as possible – and, most importantly, if you feel someone is wrong, debate the ideas without making it personal – do not belittle them or how they want to play the game.
I do appreciate civility. It’s refreshing?
That doesn’t mean there’s no right answer, or that both sides have parity in their arguments. Put another way, anet must make a yes/no decision on easy mode raids.
I still would like to hear a (coherent) argument from first principles. That is,
Why do raids, in particular, need an easy mode?
Again, I have no desire to straw man, but here’s the top three responses:
1. Because I must be able to complete all content
2. Because I want the rewards
3. Because I want to experience the lore
And, well, these responses are just not in line with the rest of the game, as:
1. There’s always been hard content. And there’s plenty of easy and medium content
2. All game modes have unique rewards
3. The lore in raids is not super relevant, and more relevant lore is behind hard content.
Give me a solid foundation to argue against. Without that, the technical points don’t really matter.
I do appreciate civility. It’s refreshing?
That doesn’t mean there’s no right answer, or that both sides have parity in their arguments. Put another way, anet must make a yes/no decision on easy mode raids.
I still would like to hear a (coherent) argument from first principles. That is,
Why do raids, in particular, need an easy mode?
Again, I have no desire to straw man, but here’s the top three responses:
1. Because I must be able to complete all content
2. Because I want the rewards
3. Because I want to experience the lore
And, well, these responses are just not in line with the rest of the game, as:
1. There’s always been hard content. And there’s plenty of easy and medium content
2. All game modes have unique rewards
3. The lore in raids is not super relevant, and more relevant lore is behind hard content.
Give me a solid foundation to argue against. Without that, the technical points don’t really matter.
Right and wrong in this instance is subjective. We both think we are right – and regardless of which direction they go, that will not change.
When I look at your 3 points, I don’t see the reasons I want tiered difficulty. My reasons would be -
1. To ensure that the story told in GW2 is accessible to PVE players with multiple playstyles and interest.
2. To provide another fun and interesting activity for me and my friends, even those who aren’t hardcore raiders (I dislike the exclusionary nature of raiding).
3. To increase interest in raiding from more people – which in turn will justify ongoing investment in raiding (all levels of raiding).
Please note that point one isn’t necessarily about lore – it is about experiencing the story. If Anet chose to leave story completely out of raids, you could take this point off. However, by introducing the likely storyline from Season 3 and the likely antagonists, they made this raid chapter one in the player’s story. That is upsetting for those players who simply do not enjoy raiding in its current form.
To your final 3 points, yes, there should be hard content, just as there should be easy content. What I don’t like is an entire game mode dedicated to one or the other. Raids, fractals, open world, even living story – all should include a range of difficulty levels and experiences. Yes, that requires more resources, but I think its worth investing those resources (which is probably where our opinions differ the greatest).
Different rewards in different game modes based on difficulty – of course. I agree 100% with you on that one.
And again, I am not discussing lore but rather the ability to experience important points in the story (and the introduction of the storyline and primary antagonists is an important point).
And, thank you as well for the civility. That comment wasn’t necessarily directed at you. While you and I obviously disagree strongly on this issue, Ive never found you to be overly antagonistic (unlike some others – including one who decided to chase me down in game and berate me for my words here on the forums).
I thought raids were really time consuming, i tried the first week it come out, got like 50 magnet shards only from dying to VG.
And i thought it was too time consuming and extressfull, then 2 weeks ago i started to look at the LFM everytime i logged in and if there was a group almost complete looking for VG or Sloth i would join, i would jump at TS or Disc with mic muted no stress, the group would try to kill VG like 2-3 times and if it failed would just dismiss the party, really fast groups and no stress on failure, just moved on and everytime got more exp on these fights.
I started really nailing every mechanic of these 2 fights, and yestarday i got a kill on VG and Gors. It was faster than my frac T4 dailies. So yeah if you want it consume less time then T4 fracs.
And by the way i have a job and i’m married not that it matters.
Every content splits the playerbase as long as not 100% play it. Strawman argument.
Notice, that it was Absurdo that used it.
This point is much more subtle than you’re giving me credit for. I’m not talking about splitting the player base among people who raid / don’t raid. I’m talking about splitting the player base among possible raiders.
Oh, i know. But if after the split the hard mode raids wouldn’t have enough players, it would just mean there were never enough people truly interested in them to justify their existence.
If it’s true what all the raiders are telling me, and raids were indeed a smashing success, and are really popular, then you have nothing to fear.
Also, if you argue against splitting a specific subcommunity, you must understand that this argument will work as well when applied to any other subcommunity, including the community as a whole.
Instead, it’s much healthier for the game long term if all skill levels are playing the same raid.
Only if they are playing the same raid. Which at the moment they don’t.
By ignoring the players easy mode would bring you base your reasoning on wrong assumptions, and thus arrive at wrong conclusions.
Recall the early days of GW2, when all the dungeons were difficult. Then people learned the encounters.
I see people bring it up again and again, and every time they do so, they conveniently forget that the dungeons got nerfed significantly since that time.
TL;DR — One difficulty level promotes a diversity of skill levels, which is better for the game long term.
Nah, it’s only good for the raiders. And only for those that wouldn’t rather play the easy mode if they had the chance.
I don’t mean to straw man, but these seem to be the their first principles (or some combination):
1. All content must be complete-able or mirrored at a low skill level.
2. Hard content cannot have unique or better rewards.
3. Any lore elements, no matter how minor, must be complete-able at a low skill level.
Nope.
Ad 1. It’s perfectly okay to have content aimed at different skill levels. As long as they don’t conflict with points below.
ad 2 – hard content shouldn’t have better quality of rewards. Nor should unique rewards consist of a whole category of gear.
Better quantity of rewards is okay, as well as unique skins (even if i don’t like that last part personally). But then, there should be some consequence – if hard content is to offer better rewards, then the best rewards should come from sPvP, not raids (Again, better in quantity, not quality).
ad 3. you shouldn’t lock out generally major story elements behind content meant for minority. (seriously, the current lore behind raids touches things people have been asking for since the launch of the game – and asking very loudly. That’s not minor).
and point 4: you shouldn’t promote content meant for a small minority over all the other content.
(also, harder does not mean better, or more important)
Here are mine:
1. It’s best to have a diversity of content, easy, medium, and hard.
2. It’s ok to have unique skins as rewards for hard content.
3. It’s ok to have hard content have better rewards, but stat-related items should be attainable from a variety of sources.
4. Lore should never come before gameplay.
Notice, how neither of those actually contradicts what i have been saying.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
If you had hard and easy mode with same/similar rewards, a lot of the current players that raid will just opt for the easy one because even though they can do the challenge of the hard raid, there’s no point to, for them.
I am one of those people, I’d just do the easy raid, walk in auto attack and get my loot because I only care about the loot even though I can down the hard bosses I probably won’t. In it’s current scenario that’s like doing slippery slubbing or seimur was wrong every single weekly clear (hard mode), nobody does that since you don’t get much if anything extra.
When you add in an easy way to get something similar, people will prefer to do that rather than the hard mode.
If they made easier version of the current raids, it would effectively kill the current difficulty raids and in turn probably kill a lot of the interest for raiders since the content would be deemed too easy.
FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN
If you had hard and easy mode with same/similar rewards, a lot of the current players that raid will just opt for the easy one because even though they can do the challenge of the hard raid, there’s no point to, for them.
That is why you make sure hard mode rewards significantly better than easier mode.
For most, this has is about the experience, not the elite rewards. Of course more effort should equal greater reward.
If they did this, I could potentially see myself doing both each week. At least once with the team I am raiding with now and at least once with my friends who aren’t interested in the current difficulty.
If you had hard and easy mode with same/similar rewards, a lot of the current players that raid will just opt for the easy one because even though they can do the challenge of the hard raid, there’s no point to, for them.
That is why you make sure hard mode rewards significantly better than easier mode.
For most, this has is about the experience, not the elite rewards. Of course more effort should equal greater reward.
If they did this, I could potentially see myself doing both each week. At least once with the team I am raiding with now and at least once with my friends who aren’t interested in the current difficulty.
Sad to say you would probabely be in the minority since if done hard mode you would most likely not get the reward for the easy one or other way around if done easy first tough luck on your hard mode rewards.
Ita a raid. It was our in the game to be hard content. If u cant do hard content then dont do it. Sorry? Its not that hard to actually learn the raids or to find a teaching guild or group. Im sorry if your mmo isnt minecraft lvl in terms of difficulty. This game is beyond catered to casual players hit some “better” players wanted “hard” content and that is what they got. These posts are getting annoying id like to say
Ita a raid. It was our in the game to be hard content. If u cant do hard content then dont do it. Sorry? Its not that hard to actually learn the raids or to find a teaching guild or group. Im sorry if your mmo isnt minecraft lvl in terms of difficulty. This game is beyond catered to casual players hit some “better” players wanted “hard” content and that is what they got. These posts are getting annoying id like to say
No one is trying to take away the hard content.
If you had hard and easy mode with same/similar rewards, a lot of the current players that raid will just opt for the easy one because even though they can do the challenge of the hard raid, there’s no point to, for them.
That is why you make sure hard mode rewards significantly better than easier mode.
For most, this has is about the experience, not the elite rewards. Of course more effort should equal greater reward.
If they did this, I could potentially see myself doing both each week. At least once with the team I am raiding with now and at least once with my friends who aren’t interested in the current difficulty.
I would be extremely happy with 2 difficulties with the current one being hard and an easier one with substantially less rewards so I can show my friends who don’t raid how awesome the raid is without them having to fully gear and learn everything.
However the people complaining on here generally want legendary armor, same/similar rewards in both which as I explained causes a rift and eventual death of hard mode since the rewards are the same.
FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN
If you had hard and easy mode with same/similar rewards, a lot of the current players that raid will just opt for the easy one because even though they can do the challenge of the hard raid, there’s no point to, for them.
Then those people aren’t really interested in raids at their current difficulty level. Again, if there will be not enough people left that would want to do the hard mode (especially since the hard mode would have quantitatively better rewards) to sustain it, that means there were never enough people to justify creating raids at that difficulty.
If they made easier version of the current raids, it would effectively kill the current difficulty raids
If you’re right, then raids were a failure from the beginning. Because, what you’re really claiming is that almost noone really wants to do them (yes, that’s exactly what it means).
Sad to say you would probabely be in the minority since if done hard mode you would most likely not get the reward for the easy one or other way around if done easy first tough luck on your hard mode rewards.
Why couldn’t it be done the fractal way (with hard mode giving you both sets of rewards)?
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
If you had hard and easy mode with same/similar rewards, a lot of the current players that raid will just opt for the easy one because even though they can do the challenge of the hard raid, there’s no point to, for them.
Then those people aren’t really interested in raids at their current difficulty level. Again, if there will be not enough people left that would want to do the hard mode (especially since the hard mode would have quantitatively better rewards) to sustain it, that means there were never enough people to justify creating raids at that difficulty.
If they made easier version of the current raids, it would effectively kill the current difficulty raids
If you’re right, then raids were a failure from the beginning. Because, what you’re really claiming is that almost noone really wants to do them (yes, that’s exactly what it means).
Sad to say you would probabely be in the minority since if done hard mode you would most likely not get the reward for the easy one or other way around if done easy first tough luck on your hard mode rewards.
Why couldn’t it be done the fractal way (with hard mode giving you both sets of rewards)?
It all boils down to path of least resistance. If you offer an easier way to aquire something, most people will use it. It has nothing to do with not wanting the difficulty. Stop your strawman argument that the current raids are a failure because people would use the path of least resistance.
And the fractal difficulty was already suggested here with T3 as the current difficulty. It would also lock you out of legendary armor as golden weapons and armor chests only drop from T3+ chests.
Meena Wolfsgeist | Ranger
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant
Path of least resistance indeed.
If I could say make 10g/hour AFKing or I could make 11g/hour trying my best, doing optimal metas and farming, I’m going to opt for the 10g/hour AFKing. That doesn’t mean the metas and farming are worthless or that nobody is interested, it’s just that you’ve incentivized the easy way far too much to bother with the other method.
In GW2 for example, they did this with dungeons. CoF1 would give 1 gold, Arah P4 would give 3 gold. Most people opted for the easy CoF1 over effort of Arah P4. It doesn’t mean nobody was interested in Arah, just that the effort to get the 3 gold wasn’t worth the time for most people when they could CoF1. I think SE p2 would also be a better example, since it give 1g and CoF1 also give 1g.
This is exactly what you’re trying to do with raids, to introduce similar rewards to current raids but making it much much easier.
What I’m claiming is almost nobody will want to do them (current raids) IF there was something far far easier with similar rewards/legendary armor and NOT nobody wants to really do the current raids. A massive difference.
FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN
(edited by fishball.7204)
For some reason, fractals have exactly same thing and don’t have any of your “problems”.
Long story short; because fractals and raids are very different content. Fractals are explicitly designed with playing around with the idea of difficulty scaling, it’s the core concept and has ancillary systems which interact with it, like Agony and Instabilities; raids and dungeons are not designed that way.
We can see how Blizzard doing exactly same thing for balancing various difficulties for raids, and its not something very different from original encounter. More generous enrage timers, less damage overall, less boss health. Encounters are already balanced and tested, reducing their difficulty requires only some numbers tuning.
No, encounters are wildly different across modes, especially across the Heroic-Mythic and LFR-Normal divides, and you’re completely ignoring the content strategies of both games by trying to make a 1:1 comparison.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
Why would u make easy mode raids? They were meant to be a hard core content not some open world event anyone with five minutes of time can do.
‘’I want to participate in PvP tournament final but its too hard, anet do smthn pls.’’
I want easy mode raids because I would enjoy playing them then. Right now, I don’t, so I stopped. I hope their metrics can capture people like me who tried them for a while and then stopped playing.
Also, they do have easy mode PvP — amber/emerald league divisions.
“I don’t like playing Habbo Hotel but if they made it like Call of Duty I would enjoy playing it”
Raids aren’t supposed to be easy, they’re supposed to be pain-staking and difficult to learn. If you don’t grasp that then you aren’t suitable for raids, simple as that.
very special guild tag [tX]
Au contraire, Fractal development is a much slower beast than raids by a lot precisely because raid content doesn’t have difficulty scaling. If their new Fractal content release track record weren’t already proof enough of that, I don’t know what is. Having to balance the entire raid twice for two entirely different groups of players along with the other necessary interface and reward changes is a massive undertaking.
We can see how Blizzard doing exactly same thing for balancing various difficulties for raids, and its not something very different from original encounter. More generous enrage timers, less damage overall, less boss health. Encounters are already balanced and tested, reducing their difficulty requires only some numbers tuning.
Do you realize how much manpower and resources Blizzard has?
Can Anet try to do the same? Yes – will they fail miserably? Absolutely – not because they couldn’t – but because it would take TOO many resources.
We’re talking about the same Anet that basically cancelled Legendary weapons and you want them to do this now?
Also – encounters aren’t balanced by numbers alone – but by mechanics too.
It’s not as simple as you might like.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
It all boils down to path of least resistance. If you offer an easier way to aquire something, most people will use it.
That means they are raiding only to get the loot, they don’t care where they’d get it. That means they would have been equally happy if that loot ended up somewhere else (say, in fractals. Or dungeons. Or raids done with lower difficulty).
It has nothing to do with not wanting the difficulty. Stop your strawman argument that the current raids are a failure because people would use the path of least resistance.
There are 2 kinds of people doing raids. Those that wanted raids in the first place, and those that are doing them, but didn’t specifically want them (actually, there are also people that actively dislike raids, but are still doing them for legendary armor, but let’s ignore that distinction for a moment). What you’re saying is that the second group is much bigger than the first, and that the first is so small that they can’t sustain the content without artificially inflating their numbers with people that would have been completely fine not doing raids. That’s not a strawman, that’s really what your argument means.
And the fractal difficulty was already suggested here with T3 as the current difficulty. It would also lock you out of legendary armor as golden weapons and armor chests only drop from T3+ chests.
Err, no. One person said something about t3 (when wanting not one easy mode, but four difficulty tiers), and one more (you) decided it means no good drops in easy mode.
I’d rather see the difference in drop rate and amount only, without restricting anything from easy mode. Say, the average amount of rewards for easy mode would be around 1/3 compared to current (notice, it would mean 1 full year of doing easy raids to get enough insights for legendary). Hard mode would get current rewards and easy mode rewards (which, notice again, would be a reward upgrade, and end up being 4 times better than doing easy mode).
Path of least resistance you mentioned earlier would make people use the mode they feel comfortable with, that still offers them the best reward rate. For people that can relatively reliably do current raids, it would still be hard mode, not easy. Unless they really, really hate the raids they’re doing now and would rather see their path to legendary slow down significantly than do them again.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
It all boils down to path of least resistance. If you offer an easier way to aquire something, most people will use it.
That means they are raiding only to get the loot, they don’t care where they’d get it. That means they would have been equally happy if that loot ended up somewhere else (say, in fractals. Or dungeons. Or raids done with lower difficulty).
It has nothing to do with not wanting the difficulty. Stop your strawman argument that the current raids are a failure because people would use the path of least resistance.
There are 2 kinds of people doing raids. Those that wanted raids in the first place, and those that are doing them, but didn’t specifically want them (actually, there are also people that actively dislike raids, but are still doing them for legendary armor, but let’s ignore that distinction for a moment). What you’re saying is that the second group is much bigger than the first, and that the first is so small that they can’t sustain the content without artificially inflating their numbers with people that would have been completely fine not doing raids. That’s not a strawman, that’s really what your argument means.
And the fractal difficulty was already suggested here with T3 as the current difficulty. It would also lock you out of legendary armor as golden weapons and armor chests only drop from T3+ chests.
Err, no. One person said something about t3 (when wanting not one easy mode, but four difficulty tiers), and one more (you) decided it means no good drops in easy mode.
I’d rather see the difference in drop rate and amount only, without restricting anything from easy mode. Say, the average amount of rewards for easy mode would be around 1/3 compared to current (notice, it would mean 1 full year of doing easy raids to get enough insights for legendary). Hard mode would get current rewards and easy mode rewards (which, notice again, would be a reward upgrade, and end up being 4 times better than doing easy mode).
Path of least resistance you mentioned earlier would make people use the mode they feel comfortable with, that still offers them the best reward rate. For people that can relatively reliably do current raids, it would still be hard mode, not easy. Unless they really, really hate the raids they’re doing now and would rather see their path to legendary slow down significantly than do them again.
Why is wanting rewards a bad thing? I think most players play for a combination of rewards and content. I know that I’m only currently playing pvp because of the legendary back pack. Content doesn’t need to stand without rewards to be good.
And if easy moders are looking for easy content, you got it. Why does this content need to be easy?
Why would u make easy mode raids? They were meant to be a hard core content not some open world event anyone with five minutes of time can do.
‘’I want to participate in PvP tournament final but its too hard, anet do smthn pls.’’
I want easy mode raids because I would enjoy playing them then. Right now, I don’t, so I stopped. I hope their metrics can capture people like me who tried them for a while and then stopped playing.
Also, they do have easy mode PvP — amber/emerald league divisions.
“I don’t like playing Habbo Hotel but if they made it like Call of Duty I would enjoy playing it”
Raids aren’t supposed to be easy, they’re supposed to be pain-staking and difficult to learn. If you don’t grasp that then you aren’t suitable for raids, simple as that.
“Supposed to be?” According to what authority? The MMO Board for Appropriate Use of the Term Raid?
Easy-mode raids exist in other MMOs — and the universe didn’t implode as a result, so it’s not a contradiction. It’s rather well defined what that would mean — same/similar mechanics, but with more forgiving penalties for messing up, more generous timers, less damage given to players, fewer hit points to burn through, etc. In short, you still have to learn the mechanics, but you have more room for mistakes.
Someone asked why anyone would want that. I answered that I would actually enjoy it then, as I don’t enjoy it now. It’s as simple as that.
Why is wanting rewards a bad thing?
I have never said, or even implied that it is. I’m pointing out that a lot of raiders seem to want to have people running raids only for rewards. Because they seem to think without those people raids would end up having too low a population.
I think most players play for a combination of rewards and content. I know that I’m only currently playing pvp because of the legendary back pack. Content doesn’t need to stand without rewards to be good.
Agreed. It just needs to have enough rewards for people to think they’re not losing by playing it. Which is generally covered not by exclusives, but by liquid wealth and rewards that can be turned into wealth.
See the mentioned earlier CoF/Arah example. Arah having unique skins you couldn’t get in CoF didn’t make a difference. And Arah didn’t offer neither enough of a fun, or wealth increase to cover for difficulty. Notice also, that lot of the people that happily ran other dungeons would not have attempted Arah even if it rewarded better. Difficulty and time required just made it unsuitable for casual running.
I don’t mind raiders running hard mode getting well rewarded for it. In fact, i’d agree that currently raids are lacking in that category compared to their difficulty. I never asked for easy mode to be so well rewarding running hard mode would be stupid. On the other hand, i’d rather not see the easy mode offering no rewards that matter. Which you seem to want.
And if easy moders are looking for easy content, you got it. Why does this content need to be easy?
Easier. Not necessarily easy. And why this one? Well, point me to a different one that is as new and as well done, and contains rewards of comparable quality (yes, that would include a legendary armor, though not necessarily the Envoy set).
And why would i want it easier? Because as it is it’s no fun. It could be fun, but it’s so overtuned that it ends up causing the opposite effect by requiring a way too hardcore approach.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
I have a better idea: Make dungeon mode for raids, accessible for 5 people with difficulty that you would expect for a lvl80 dungeon by removing some mechanics from bosses (Vale Guardian split phase, Gorseval ghosts, Sabetha Cannons, Sloth poison area etc…), problem solved.
I have a better idea: Make dungeon mode for raids, accessible for 5 people with difficulty that you would expect for a lvl80 dungeon by removing some mechanics from bosses (Vale Guardian split phase, Gorseval ghosts, Sabetha Cannons, Sloth poison area etc…), problem solved.
Or, wait, let’s just make new dungeons and raids.
I’m ok with other methods to acquire (different) legendary armor.
I’m ok with medium and easy content being polished and good.
Easy mode raids are not a good solution — more new content is.
Raiders asked for difficult content, no exclusive rewards.
Legendary armor is not raid exclusive, it will be coming to other game modes. The only exclusive part is how it visually looks.
An easier mode raid (i prefer to call them dungeon mode raids) will give content to the other 99% of players.
PLUS it allows the devs to make the normal mode raids much harder, giving you the difficult content you’ve been asking for.
It is win win, there is not a single negative consequence to allowing dungeon mode raids. Everyone is happy. People stop complaining about raids. It gives the devs more time to develop content since more players are consuming raid content instead of the current 6 month drought.
(edited by Arnath.2319)
I’m all for elite content I just don’t see why they locked story elements up in raids. They need the story to be part of PvE and not locked up in multi-player only content. I’m not even asking for an “easy” mode. I would just like to be able to explore the maps without having to join a group to do so. They could use the same maps in a non-raid instance to allow causal players to enter them. They have the maps. All they have to do is create an entry point to them and add non-raid events. I’m not asking to get the high rewards from raids. I and many others just want to explore.
Why would u make easy mode raids? They were meant to be a hard core content not some open world event anyone with five minutes of time can do.
‘’I want to participate in PvP tournament final but its too hard, anet do smthn pls.’’
I want easy mode raids because I would enjoy playing them then. Right now, I don’t, so I stopped. I hope their metrics can capture people like me who tried them for a while and then stopped playing.
Also, they do have easy mode PvP — amber/emerald league divisions.
“I don’t like playing Habbo Hotel but if they made it like Call of Duty I would enjoy playing it”
Raids aren’t supposed to be easy, they’re supposed to be pain-staking and difficult to learn. If you don’t grasp that then you aren’t suitable for raids, simple as that.
“Supposed to be?” According to what authority? The MMO Board for Appropriate Use of the Term Raid?
Easy-mode raids exist in other MMOs — and the universe didn’t implode as a result, so it’s not a contradiction. It’s rather well defined what that would mean — same/similar mechanics, but with more forgiving penalties for messing up, more generous timers, less damage given to players, fewer hit points to burn through, etc. In short, you still have to learn the mechanics, but you have more room for mistakes.
Someone asked why anyone would want that. I answered that I would actually enjoy it then, as I don’t enjoy it now. It’s as simple as that.
From the developers:
Fellow Tyrians,
In 2015, we announced that Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™ would provide players the ultimate challenge with the introduction of raids. To meet that challenge as developers, we set out with a vision to create encounters that would put raiders’ skills and coordination to the test using our groundbreaking combat and dynamic event systems.
- Steven Waller, 2016
It’s a good read: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/a-raiding-retrospective/ about how Guild Wars 2 raid was made and what are the goal and intention of its makers.
“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”
- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids
- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids
No, I do not like this idea. It makes the raiding experience feel less epic.
difficulty ‘levels’ for raids are better provided via breadth of content rather than multiple modes
Nalhadia – Kaineng
difficulty ‘levels’ for raids are better provided via breadth of content rather than multiple modes
Say only people that have no problem with current difficulty.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November