The Difficulty of Dungeons

The Difficulty of Dungeons

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Apollo.9103

Apollo.9103

I’d like to see community opinions of offering different levels of difficulty for dungeons. The harder the difficulty, the more challenging and therefore more rewarding. This would change the daily grind of dungeons and following the same pattern each time to making things a bit more complex. What are you opinions on this?

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Fafnir.5124

Fafnir.5124

only dungeon that is hard is some paths in arah. All others are really easy once you know the mechanics.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Stooperdale.3560

Stooperdale.3560

The designers would do better spending their time to make new content with fresh challenges. That has to be better than seeing the same old dungeons with the same old mobs but with more health and something extra to dodge. Despite all the forum talk, dungeons are not in such a bad place. Yes, some people find it so easy that they can solo the dungeon, but MMO designers can never keep up with those players anyway so there’s no need for them to try.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: RoseofGilead.8907

RoseofGilead.8907

I agree with Stooperdale. I’d rather see a new dungeon than another revamp of an existing one. Adding “hard mode” options for certain paths at a later date would be cool, but right now I think their efforts would be better spent going towards new content.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

Anet’s not going to make new dungeons. They have shifted all their efforts towards open world zerg content. The dungeon team was disbanded a long time ago.

People are asking for different difficulty levels because it’s the only kind of dungeon update (beside stealth nerfs) that has any hope of being implemented.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

I’ve suggested before that perhaps Fractal instabilities could be added to dungeons, in effect creating a “Hard Mode” for dungeons. Instabilities are categorised into “Easy”, “Medium” and “Hard”, and you pick which difficulty you want before starting the dungeon. The instabilities are then applied randomly as you go through the dungeon (to prevent people from just re-rolling at the start to get “good” instabilities).

Rewards at the end of the dungeon are boosted by 20%/50%/100% for completing it with the various instabilities.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Syn Sity.5826

Syn Sity.5826

Instabilities seem more like an extra nuisance than extra challenge. They just need to make some piece of content where the punishment for failure is actually failure.

[DnT]

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Phadde.7362

Phadde.7362

I’ve suggested before that perhaps Fractal instabilities could be added to dungeons, in effect creating a “Hard Mode” for dungeons. Instabilities are categorised into “Easy”, “Medium” and “Hard”, and you pick which difficulty you want before starting the dungeon. The instabilities are then applied randomly as you go through the dungeon (to prevent people from just re-rolling at the start to get “good” instabilities).

Rewards at the end of the dungeon are boosted by 20%/50%/100% for completing it with the various instabilities.

This^

I think that they should use the assets that already exists in the game in form of (easy) dungeons

Vote for/against <dueling>: http://strawpoll.me/1650018/
Cred to Latinkuro
Gw2 is a masterpiece at it’s foundation. Content-wise however…

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Phadde.7362

Phadde.7362

I agree with Stooperdale. I’d rather see a new dungeon than another revamp of an existing one. Adding “hard mode” options for certain paths at a later date would be cool, but right now I think their efforts would be better spent going towards new content.

Adding Hardmode to existing dungeons will take a mere fraction of the time of creating new dungeons with a real challenge.

For that reason, I think they should start adding Hardmodes.

(sorry for bumping =P)

Vote for/against <dueling>: http://strawpoll.me/1650018/
Cred to Latinkuro
Gw2 is a masterpiece at it’s foundation. Content-wise however…

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

I’ve suggested before that perhaps Fractal instabilities could be added to dungeons, in effect creating a “Hard Mode” for dungeons. Instabilities are categorised into “Easy”, “Medium” and “Hard”, and you pick which difficulty you want before starting the dungeon. The instabilities are then applied randomly as you go through the dungeon (to prevent people from just re-rolling at the start to get “good” instabilities).

Rewards at the end of the dungeon are boosted by 20%/50%/100% for completing it with the various instabilities.

This^

I think that they should use the assets that already exists in the game in form of (easy) dungeons

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/The-Dungeons-The-Fun-and-The-Challange/first#post3968152

Sections: Challanges, Opportunities

I’d like to see community opinions of offering different levels of difficulty for dungeons. The harder the difficulty, the more challenging and therefore more rewarding. This would change the daily grind of dungeons and following the same pattern each time to making things a bit more complex. What are you opinions on this?

Sections: Boss Instances, Elite Missions, Explorable, Challanges, Oppotunities

Players should have way more options to decide how their instance should be like, same as rewards and effort

Rarely seen in other games, almost never in MMOs (if ever), linking to Guild Wars 1, adressing all types of players, solving major design issues. Everything ANet wants.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

(edited by Rym.1469)

The Difficulty of Dungeons

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Phadde.7362

Phadde.7362

Although you touch on the same areas, your thread is really not focused on the same thing as this one. Perhaps it’s a better idea to discuss the focus of this topic from the angle of your own thoughts?

I think your suggestion for the “Tough Trinity” (basically 3 man a dungeon for better rewards) is really good! A really simple “modifier” which completely changes the experience!

Vote for/against <dueling>: http://strawpoll.me/1650018/
Cred to Latinkuro
Gw2 is a masterpiece at it’s foundation. Content-wise however…

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: dutchiez.7502

dutchiez.7502

Instabilities seem more like an extra nuisance than extra challenge. They just need to make some piece of content where the punishment for failure is actually failure.

Yes, that’s what I’d love to see as well. Right now most of the challenge in GW2 can be negated by just bashing your face into it until you get lucky and get it done. Especially now with no armor repair costs. If wiping meant getting kicked out, things would be a lot harder (ofcourse rewards will have to be compensated).

Nova [rT]

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

Although you touch on the same areas, your thread is really not focused on the same thing as this one. Perhaps it’s a better idea to discuss the focus of this topic from the angle of your own thoughts?

I think your suggestion for the “Tough Trinity” (basically 3 man a dungeon for better rewards) is really good! A really simple “modifier” which completely changes the experience!

Actually, it’s pretty common. (Altough I don’t want to “steal” the topic, I just share my thoughts without unecessary re-writing it)
Elite Missions touch the OP point strictly, Boss Instances reward you with time saved if you are able to handle the challange, Explorables allow you to design your own “path”, reward for everything, are varied and allow for farming with various options – literally Vanquish from GW1 just within the dungeon.

Challanges and Opportunities are just modifiers, but I see great area for improvement in here. They’re not only increasing the rewards, but give you total “score”, place on true leaderboards and allow for serious fun competition in completing dungeons which isn’t “reach 50 level of the same stuff, but scaled”

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

(edited by Rym.1469)

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Instabilities seem more like an extra nuisance than extra challenge. They just need to make some piece of content where the punishment for failure is actually failure.

Yes, that’s what I’d love to see as well. Right now most of the challenge in GW2 can be negated by just bashing your face into it until you get lucky and get it done. Especially now with no armor repair costs. If wiping meant getting kicked out, things would be a lot harder (ofcourse rewards will have to be compensated).

^
This.
Fail isn’t punished in this gime.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Instabilities seem more like an extra nuisance than extra challenge. They just need to make some piece of content where the punishment for failure is actually failure.

Yes, that’s what I’d love to see as well. Right now most of the challenge in GW2 can be negated by just bashing your face into it until you get lucky and get it done. Especially now with no armor repair costs. If wiping meant getting kicked out, things would be a lot harder (ofcourse rewards will have to be compensated).

^
This.
Fail isn’t punished in this gime.

And even less so now without armor repair costs.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Instabilities seem more like an extra nuisance than extra challenge. They just need to make some piece of content where the punishment for failure is actually failure.

Yes, that’s what I’d love to see as well. Right now most of the challenge in GW2 can be negated by just bashing your face into it until you get lucky and get it done. Especially now with no armor repair costs. If wiping meant getting kicked out, things would be a lot harder (ofcourse rewards will have to be compensated).

^
This.
Fail isn’t punished in this gime.

And even less so now without armor repair costs.

If someone had problem with that, thats another personal issue.
A full broken armor repair cost was … 10-15s? Even if you brake your whole armor on every single dungeon path, you still earn profit. Now your income is even more.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Instabilities seem more like an extra nuisance than extra challenge. They just need to make some piece of content where the punishment for failure is actually failure.

Yes, that’s what I’d love to see as well. Right now most of the challenge in GW2 can be negated by just bashing your face into it until you get lucky and get it done. Especially now with no armor repair costs. If wiping meant getting kicked out, things would be a lot harder (ofcourse rewards will have to be compensated).

^
This.
Fail isn’t punished in this gime.

And even less so now without armor repair costs.

If someone had problem with that, thats another personal issue.
A full broken armor repair cost was … 10-15s? Even if you brake your whole armor on every single dungeon path, you still earn profit. Now your income is even more.

Yeah. I can’t even determine the reason for that. They got rid of a gold sink to justify nerfing champ and Dungeon loot. In reality, it would have been better for players for them to reduce way point costs, even just a fraction, to promote wider exploration instead of basically saying “no problem, you can die, nothing bad happens ^^ kittens and rainbows and puppiez

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Oh yeah and now dungeons give an extra 5 silver daily, which more or less reduce the effect of the nerf.
Any chance that shared paths will give award on each different path daily? :/ That would be a lovely change.

In reality, it would have been better for players for them to reduce way point costs, even just a fraction, to promote wider exploration

And for what reason? :P If you level, WP costs are less and often you go from one zone to the next one and even if you port of the other side of the map, its just a few silver.
If you are already lvl80 and WP costs hurt your wallet, you have serious financial problems. :P

Lilith freaks out on the casualness of the game … Armageddon is close!

The Difficulty of Dungeons

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Oh yeah and now dungeons give an extra 5 silver daily, which more or less reduce the effect of the nerf.
Any chance that shared paths will give award on each different path daily? :/ That would be a lovely change.

In reality, it would have been better for players for them to reduce way point costs, even just a fraction, to promote wider exploration

And for what reason? :P If you level, WP costs are less and often you go from one zone to the next one and even if you port of the other side of the map, its just a few silver.
If you are already lvl80 and WP costs hurt your wallet, you have serious financial problems. :P

Lilith freaks out on the casualness of the game … Armageddon is close!

Haha I’m just saying that if they need to get rid of a gold sink it should have been way point costs.

Ps. It is armageddon. I’ve actually been noticing my snark levels have been rising OVER 9000.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Lindbur.2537

Lindbur.2537

Oh yeah and now dungeons give an extra 5 silver daily, which more or less reduce the effect of the nerf.
Any chance that shared paths will give award on each different path daily? :/ That would be a lovely change.

In reality, it would have been better for players for them to reduce way point costs, even just a fraction, to promote wider exploration

And for what reason? :P If you level, WP costs are less and often you go from one zone to the next one and even if you port of the other side of the map, its just a few silver.
If you are already lvl80 and WP costs hurt your wallet, you have serious financial problems. :P

Lilith freaks out on the casualness of the game … Armageddon is close!

Haha I’m just saying that if they need to get rid of a gold sink it should have been way point costs.

Ps. It is armageddon. I’ve actually been noticing my snark levels have been rising OVER 9000.

Now, for the next part of your training: sarcasm. You shall learn from the finest!
deSade!

A remnant of times past.
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”

The Difficulty of Dungeons

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Oh yeah and now dungeons give an extra 5 silver daily, which more or less reduce the effect of the nerf.
Any chance that shared paths will give award on each different path daily? :/ That would be a lovely change.

In reality, it would have been better for players for them to reduce way point costs, even just a fraction, to promote wider exploration

And for what reason? :P If you level, WP costs are less and often you go from one zone to the next one and even if you port of the other side of the map, its just a few silver.
If you are already lvl80 and WP costs hurt your wallet, you have serious financial problems. :P

Lilith freaks out on the casualness of the game … Armageddon is close!

Haha I’m just saying that if they need to get rid of a gold sink it should have been way point costs.

Ps. It is armageddon. I’ve actually been noticing my snark levels have been rising OVER 9000.

Now, for the next part of your training: sarcasm. You shall learn from the finest!
deSade!

Sensei DeSade has been giving me daily lessons in return for kitties and hugs. ^^

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

Actually I see no problem in removing the repair costs.
That was only a punishment for fresh players, trying out dungeons for the first time. Maybe you don’t remember, but I do, when on release I was there, trying to do AC story mode with couple of my friends at lvl 30 and dying over and over and over. It was fun, nobody knew the dungeon, but after two hours of laughs we went completly broke and lost all our silvers on repairs, so we were there, naked. So we left the dungeon, unable to finish it and went farming DEs naked to get any money for repairs

Next time I’ve stepped into a dungeon was 80 level. It wasn’t a challange really, but doing dungeons (apart from crap rewards) was expensive and we were rather to spend that money on crafting or such.

Long-time players already have that money, so they can afford any repairs and situation for them hasn’t even changed, when it’s more accessible for new players.

The game, unless you’re about to do some crazy-elite content, should not punish you for your group failures. It’s fun after all.

You know what was one of the big parts of World of Warcraft success on release compared to other MMOs on the market?

It wasn’t punishing you for dying, it didn’t cost you your level or experience. It costed very little (even for lowbies) to repair your leveling armor, wasn’t punishing you for exploring that much. Sure, it was a disgrace for some anime fans from Final Fantasies or such, but it was a huge step foward.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Actually I see no problem in removing the repair costs.
That was only a punishment for fresh players, trying out dungeons for the first time. Maybe you don’t remember, but I do, when on release I was there, trying to do AC story mode with couple of my friends at lvl 30 and dying over and over and over. It was fun, nobody knew the dungeon, but after two hours of laughs we went completly broke and lost all our silvers on repairs, so we were there, naked. So we left the dungeon, unable to finish it and went farming DEs naked to get any money for repairs

Next time I’ve stepped into a dungeon was 80 level. It wasn’t a challange really, but doing dungeons (apart from crap rewards) was expensive and we were rather to spend that money on crafting or such.

Long-time players already have that money, so they can afford any repairs and situation for them hasn’t even changed, when it’s more accessible for new players.

The game, unless you’re about to do some crazy-elite content, should not punish you for your group failures. It’s fun after all.

You know what was one of the big parts of World of Warcraft success on release compared to other MMOs on the market?

It wasn’t punishing you for dying, it didn’t cost you your level or experience. It costed very little (even for lowbies) to repair your leveling armor, wasn’t punishing you for exploring that much. Sure, it was a disgrace for some anime fans from Final Fantasies or such, but it was a huge step foward.

So it shouldn’t punish you for failures but it should punish you for wanting to explore. Gotcha.

Much wow, repair costs.
Such silver, many ouchies.
Failure now option.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

You know what was one of the big parts of World of Warcraft success on release compared to other MMOs on the market?

It wasn’t punishing you for dying, it didn’t cost you your level or experience. It costed very little (even for lowbies) to repair your leveling armor, wasn’t punishing you for exploring that much. Sure, it was a disgrace for some anime fans from Final Fantasies or such, but it was a huge step foward.

But the shame run back to your corpse at least felt you are punished.
Here you just port back from the nearest waypoint and try again.
Well, fractals are almost good, but there you can still port out to a major hub to repair everything and the maps are small enough to run back in a minute and even if you are horrible either you can get carried or just brute force everything until it dies. I guess everybody has some nice experience on lvl49/50 with random pugs, so you know what i mean.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

sniff

So it shouldn’t punish you for failures but it should punish you for wanting to explore. Gotcha.

Much wow, repair costs.
Such silver, many ouchies.
Failure now option.

Early World of Warcraft was punishing you for group-designed or higher level zones, indeed. As the game progressed it was just less and less punishing in terms of money. Because money punishment for it doesn’t work, it’s just annoying.

Looking on the WvW/PvE Open World side it also punishes you for splitting from the zerg. Moving in zerg is safe in most cases and it’s an effortless milking cow, but once you split up, things change and you’re way more likely to die.
As far as I remember, everyone is complaining about zerg content.

Back to the first paragraph – Guild Wars 2 wants to be a “revolutionary” MMO. We all can see the bad and good sides of it, but if it wants to be like that, repair cost are not necessary in here. It’s not World of Warcraft or other MMO.

Plain repair cost just lost it’s purpose shortly after the release. If average player has around 10 gold, repair cost of 3 silver won’t be even noticed. The annoyance of repair remains though – he has to visit that repair guy.

Let’s talk about “failure punishments” options:

1) If repair cost was % of your money – Equal punishment for everyone, huh? Not really. People can still transfer/put the money somewhere and it discourages rich to run anywhere from Trading Post or farm spots.

2)Morale Debuff – GW1 style. For every death, your total stats decrease by % untill you reset the instance. Now that seems like a real punishment, not? (censor on proper ending, lol )
But hee heey, that seems like Xzibit style. You die, so we decrease your stats, so you die even quicker, so we further debuff you so you die again breaking the world records and have to leave the dungeon then and reset the instance, because you have 40% of your normal stats and are too weak to do anything.

It’s just silly logic. If you’re on a hard encounter, you’re trying the mechanics and you die in process, then you have to reset the instance, progress to the same point and now try to do it without debuff. If you fail, repeat. A total waste of time and people rage to death.
If you make it timed, people who even know, after couple wipes how to do it, still have to wait or slay countless mobs. Rage quit again.
Old mechanics like that may be hardcore, but are outdated

It was silly in GW1 and would be still silly there. It came to the point when players were carrying stuff in their bags, negating the buff by themselves. Wrong way, Tim.

3)Place no repairing station in the instance. – So people leave one by one and repair their gear in world, not resetting the instance or buy those repair canisters, making gemstore happy.

4)Dhuum appears and one-shots you to death, moving to nearest town’s graveyard (like in Shaemoor) after you damage all your equipment – Now that would be cool

As you see, it may seem easy, but the problem isn’t easy to solve. Corpse run is an option though, I always liked it, but once again, dungeons – Where do you run for your corpse? From the waypoint to the body? And if body lays right under the boss? It doesn’t differ that much from current state also.
Or from the place where you died to the waypoint? That is better, but still nothing innovative or perfect.
We have no range precised ressurections like WoW has, no signet of undeath, renewal or Battle Standard will rezz defeated people.

But let ideas flow, we might come up with some good one

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

This is my only mmo. Sorry you’re more qualified to talk about other mmos on this here gw2 forum than I. In terms of gw2…. I will not be convinced that repair costs are worse than way point costs. Sorry. What’s world of warcraft?

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

The Difficulty of Dungeons

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

You have your right so, and I’m not here to prove you’re wrong or such

I’m just adding my personal opinion on the discussion, using other MMO examples to make some comparsion and show how the death punishment in games progress from my point of view.

Since you, Lilith, haven’t played any other MMO all I can say is sorry for using examples which don’t appeal to you, but I was also talking on Dalanor’s post and mention of corpse run.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144