Guild Wars 2

The new raid doesn’t appear to be so hard, neither did the previous ones take that much training (save for the couple high inquisitors Matt and Xera).

However, and this should be regardless of the veterans’ personal experiences, there is something terribly wrong if the raid released this week and LFG/LFM is not stock full like festival LFG’s or at least T1/2/3/4 when Nightmare was released. This tells us something and it is not that “raids are not for everyone” but rather that “they are almost to no one”.

I strongly disagree that difficulty or LI or build requirements present any kind of entry barrier to players; they can simply pop up their LFM’s and go for it, right? Well if that is the case we would be seeing a lot more “new to raids all welcome” groups than there actually are. Most groups at reset are the static ones, at most filling with experienced players. New players do not raid during reset, where the population is supposed the highest, why would that be? Since I started to fractal I always do it soon as dailies reset as it coincides with my leisure hours. There is no clear separation between “experienced play today then we’ll have training across the week” like there are with raids.

But if it isn’t player fault (they are, after all, playing the optimized comps they have trained so hard to master, with their friends that have also trained, they shouldn’t be carrying others), what is going on then? I can log on during the morning and there are still come T4 fractal groups and even T1 groups looking to start doing their climb. Yet you absolutely need a static group for raiding or rely on training during the week even if you already know what to do pretty well. If the problem is that 10 people is too much to gather, then why have 10-man hardcore content at all? The game is not raid centered but it is not fractal centered either, so why fractals have a good rotation of population and new faces coming and going, while raids are basically the same, rather small group of folks (something I have also experienced during PvP)?

This is a non issue to whoever has a static group right now. We’re all going to get our legendary armors and enjoy the newest challenge motes. But as more and more raids come up and population spreads thin, will these raids bring new people in? My take is, probably not, if Anet doesn’t address the new-players-cant-be- kitten d-to-train-it problem, and before you think inside your head that “Well this is not Anet’s problem”, consider that it doesn’t matter if the problem originates from the playerbase and not from them. If they don’t do anything about it, it’s going to bite them anyway (just like Fractals took so much flak before they started caring for it).

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

No, you see you’re confusing two issues.

You too can raid with 0 LI’s. You just can’t join a group and expect for that group to carry you in a raid when they want people who’ve been there and done that.

Start creating your own group with your own restrictions or lack of and raid however the heck you want.

So your sentence is basically means that:
1. There is almost nonexistent number of groups without ridiculous LI requirements, so low that new players are forced to create a group by themselves, while being completely unexperienced, because there is a NO other valid choice.
2. Because of 1, community is making a training raids. Just because, you know, new player will likely say “kitten this” and leave instead of trying to smash his head against a wall for hours without a meaningful result, and without new players raiding community will die.
3. For some mysterious, and probably even magical reason, raid developers are still thinking that this situation is normal and somehow there will be a lot (hundreds? thousands?) of new raiders who is stubborn enough to farm 50+ LI in training runs and selfmade groups with zero raiding experience. Such a bright future indeed.

I don’t know how you drew such conclusions. I’ll just leave it at this… If the number of people who complained about “LFG requirements” all banded together and started their own no-rep, no-req groups instead of coming to the forums the problem would likely be solved faster than any technical work anet could do to attempt to appease you.

We openend an LFG by ourselves with 3 man yesterday. No LI requirement, no gearcheck + we had no practical experience. Heck, I hadn’t even watched videos before to study the mechanics. I did this until we started inside the wing.
The group filled very fast (within 10-15 minutes).
Additionally we were running a non-optimal team composition and my buddy was an ele with an average of 4k dps at the start on the first boss when he knew nothing at all about it. ^^
3 players left us but after a couple of more tries we managed to kill the first boss. Another one left, we filled up and killed the second boss too.
Then, we were doing fine at third one but in the end it got late.

My conclusion: Just open your own group and go for it. Don’t take the wrong route to the forum and complain without trying.

Rednik.3809:

So your sentence is basically means that

So what you want is for the experienced players to get the newcomers with them in Raid runs and carry them through all the boss kills. You know those experienced players weren’t born experienced players they went through the training process themselves. Why should newer players skip the training process and get free kills?
There are LI requirements, because they don’t want to go through training again and instead want runs with experienced people that already know and have mastered the content. Why is wanting to play with other experienced players so bad?
You want those kills? Go through the process everyone else did, find a group of like minded individuals, form a group, and start training. In the process you might make some friends too. Alternatively, join those training runs, they are there to help people learn the content, so they can start forming their own groups.

Except that in other games everything is already set up properly, so new players can start their raiding without relying heavily on community training runs. Like, you know, proper learning curve trough all encounters, after which player can actually handle normal raiding by himself, and because of that, raiding groups are asking only for basic experience (aka achievement) and decent gear.

Bullkitten. In other MMOs, new players usually learn nothing from their first steps into raids, because they’re either designed to be so easy that a trained monkey can do them or because a bunch of veteran players will be there and trivialise stuff to the aforementioned level by virtue of being massively overgeared. The good, old learning curve has long died. You should actually talk to proper raiders in other games before claiming this nonsense.

PS: Yes, I know, a brick wall would be more receptive to logic than Rednik.

TexZero.7910:

I’ll just leave it at this… If the number of people who complained about “LFG requirements” all banded together and started their own no-rep, no-req groups instead of coming to the forums the problem would likely be solved faster than any technical work anet could do to attempt to appease you.

I already have my “no req” group, and yet it doesn’t change anything. The problem is still here, and won’t magically disappear just because you don’t want to acknowledge its existence.

“You know those experienced players weren’t born experienced players they went through the training process themselves. Why should newer players skip the training process and get free kills?”

Those that complain never seem to get it do they? EVERYONE was new at some point, period, and had to do the hard slog to get the kill.

maddoctor.2738:

So what you want is for the experienced players to get the newcomers with them in Raid runs and carry them through all the boss kills. You know those experienced players weren’t born experienced players they went through the training process themselves. Why should newer players skip the training process and get free kills?

Because in other games where raid developers are actually competent, this is never a problem except for a few very high-end raiding modes and encounters. Encounters usually made with a room for an errors, and for majority of them even few deaths are allowed. Also, if someone have an encounter experience, he is usually already knows enough to not be a burden in second killrun, so raid groups are asking for achievement only.
So, new player can always join some non-tryhard group, get his first kills and then easily do all his next raiding runs and become completely experienced raider.
But in gw2 case we have both evils – badly designed encounters and community with completely ruined segment for newcomers.

Sykper.6583:

Crystal Reid.2481:

In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill.

Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.

Just a question Crystal, I know you answered this on Reddit concerning how the Challenge Motes in this iteration were improving on mechanics or introducing new ones to the fold. But was there a real reason why there couldn’t have been a repeatable reward, even something small like a few extra gold, tied to a weekly clear with a challenge mote?

It seems like a waste that, although you did apply some unique one-time only rewards and titles to the achievements, that those victorious in the hard-modes won’t have any reason other than self-gratification for things like speed-running to repeat those hard modes again.

If it’s a tech-issue, I believe I could understand. But it almost feels like a waste to introduce new things that won’t have a repeated lifespan in this regard.

Just as an update, since people are starting to roll out their challenge mote kills on the first two bosses, it does seem like such a waste to not make that kind of content repeatable, especially the 2nd boss which can be abused by one profession, and suddenly removing that and making the encounter more position dependent depending on your dps than I think any other encounter. It’s a ‘clean kill or no kill’ kind of fight which just makes me sad because again to my point, without a repeatable reward said Raiders who complete the hard mode once won’t have a drive to do it again unless for self-gratification.

The Reward is good enough for doing it once absolutely, in fact it’s really good to the point of being almost too good. I almost would have preferred just a flat gold incentive per week so there would be a reason to do it more than once. I’m not saying there won’t be raiders who wouldn’t try it every week, but I am fairly certain there won’t be enough raiders doing the CM every week after doing it all at once the first time.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. And please don’t let the rising emotions dispel any enthusiasm, although there are issues I believe we are all fairly content with having something new to do for months again.

…And if something like a Weekly Reward is off the table because of any reason I have a different idea. Have a future raid, if it has challenge motes, add a unique rare item drop to the challenge mote raid bosses. Treat it around Gorseval’s Infusion Drop-rate. Each boss can drop a unique to itself one of these to combine into a key. This key opens a door behind the final boss of the wing encounter and brings the raid into a hidden Challenge-Mote level only level boss, that is open for the entirety of that particular instance, kind of like an event.

Make this boss extremely difficult, and the loot grand. This boss also is even more ambiguous to the raid story, so that maybe Glenna comes along after you kill it and says “Oh this thing was still around? How are you guys still alive?”

This creates a few things, one is an incentive to repeat the Challenge Mote Bosses for a key-part to unlock a hidden boss outside of even the raid story. Two, as to not make only the hard-core raiders have access it could be SOLD on the trading post, but because A ) it unlocks on a cleared final boss instance only, and locks up after you leave, and B ) It’s challenge mote only, there’s probably a scarcity until the challenge-mote bosses are done by more raiders plus the rarity of the drop, and a demand for only the best groups of the raiders.

Let me know what you think, and other people feel free to chime in as well.

Rednik.3809:

So, new player can always join some non-tryhard group, get his first kills and then easily do all his next raiding runs and become completely experienced raider.

That’s not possible. By killing an easy mode version you are in no-way experienced for a normal/hard version. A random group will always ask for kill proof of the appropriate difficulty level that they are going to do. Multiple difficulty levels do not solve the problem of accessibility for the normal/hard version.

If you believe there won’t be “kill proof” requirements of the normal mode bosses if they added an easy version then you are delusional.

maddoctor.2738:

That’s not possible. By killing an easy mode version you are in no-way experienced for a normal/hard version. A random group will always ask for kill proof of the appropriate difficulty level that they are going to do. Multiple difficulty levels do not solve the problem of accessibility for the normal/hard version.

If you believe there won’t be “kill proof” requirements of the normal mode bosses if they added an easy version then you are delusional.

Like anyone saying that kill proof is a problem? Problem is that with current encounter design and community mindset kill proof is nowhere enough for anything.

Rednik.3809:

Like anyone saying that kill proof is a problem? Problem is that with current encounter design and community mindset kill proof is nowhere enough for anything.

And adding a new difficulty won’t solve the “problem” of not finding groups for the normal/hard versions of the Raids. Unless that’s not the problem you want to solve.

Crystal Reid.2481:

In the past year and a half, the overall skill level of the Guild Wars raiding community has risen at a staggering pace. Naturally, content will seem easier now as players continue to refine their theorycrafting and personal skill.

Our goal is not to make content easier, but rather add an additional layer of difficulty onto the challenge motes where it makes sense.

If challange mote is intended for the more hardcore part of the raiding community wouldn’t it make sense ot add weekly rewards to them similar to different reward tiers in other games. There is not much of a reason to touch CM again after you got the reward achievement.

Raids currently are also hugely flawed by the fact that most of the mechanics are way to easily skippable with invuln/blocks and high dps which shouldn’t never be the case.

Every boss should be designed with the highest possible DPS in mind a group can achieve at the time of the content release which is ridiculously easy in GW2 because the BIS gear nearly never changes. Different modes (Normal/CM – Normal/Heroic/Mythic) should only give more leeway in how well a group has to excute the fight and their rotation in order to beat it which something GW2 right now is completly missing and makes most boss mechanics completly obsolete. The 2nd boss in the 2nd raid is basically a DPS golem with a different model because mechanics don’t matter a tiny bit even if people execute rotations poorly.

Raids also have barely a reason right now to repeat them or even continue doing them once you reach 450 LI for most people because there is no progression whatsoever – raids are basically done for most people after playing for 2h which is what it takes to defeat all 13 encounters repeatable rewards and challange motes for every boss would atleast double that. Fractals have the same issues only T4 dailys give anything and there is no reason to do any other fractals than those which combined with the slow release cycle of new content turns most people off from even playing this game anymore outside of the 1 day every 6 months there is something new.

maddoctor.2738:

And adding a new difficulty won’t solve the “problem” of not finding groups for the normal/hard versions of the Raids. Unless that’s not the problem you want to solve.

So it is solving exactly same problem in other games, but will not solve it here. Okay.

I haven’t tried the new raid, but if this thread is to be believed, it is considerably easier than the other 3 wings and this literally makes no sense.

The problem here is that the progression of difficulty is completely backwards! What Anet should do is re-tune all raids. The “first” wing (spirit vale) should be made considerably easier allowing groups to enter with full exotic gear and remove rage timers. The second raid wing should be harder and be manageable with a few ascended pieces (which should drop from wing 1) and the third wing should require full ascended and be harder than wing 2. The newest raid should be insanely harder than wing 3 and require really high coordination to finish. Furthermore, add a reason to finish the hardest raid like a chance of legendary drops (or something).

This idea of progression is a win win for everyone. Those that burn through the first 3 wings now have a new harder challenge “not for everyone but super elites.” In the mean time, this would allow the original raids to be more accessible to a wider audience and might even remove the required meta min max crap that’s been forced upon the raiding community (at least at the lower level raids).

Sprinkles.7615:

I haven’t tried the new raid, but if this thread is to be believed, it is considerably easier than the other 3 wings and this literally makes no sense.

The problem here is that the progression of difficulty is completely backwards! What Anet should do is re-tune all raids. The “first” wing (spirit vale) should be made considerably easier allowing groups to enter with full exotic gear and remove rage timers. The second raid wing should be harder and be manageable with a few ascended pieces (which should drop from wing 1) and the third wing should require full ascended and be harder than wing 2. The newest raid should be insanely harder than wing 3 and require really high coordination to finish. Furthermore, add a reason to finish the hardest raid like a chance of legendary drops (or something).

This idea of progression is a win win for everyone. Those that burn through the first 3 wings now have a new harder challenge “not for everyone but super elites.” In the mean time, this would allow the original raids to be more accessible to a wider audience and might even remove the required meta min max crap that’s been forced upon the raiding community (at least at the lower level raids).

It would open begginning raids but close off higher raids, while this makes sense, you are vastly over estimating the guild wars 2 community’s skill level. once it gets hard they will just stop and cry that they cant press 1 to win

Sprinkles.7615:

I haven’t tried the new raid, but if this thread is to be believed, it is considerably easier than the other 3 wings and this literally makes no sense.

The problem here is that the progression of difficulty is completely backwards! What Anet should do is re-tune all raids. The “first” wing (spirit vale) should be made considerably easier allowing groups to enter with full exotic gear and remove rage timers. The second raid wing should be harder and be manageable with a few ascended pieces (which should drop from wing 1) and the third wing should require full ascended and be harder than wing 2. The newest raid should be insanely harder than wing 3 and require really high coordination to finish. Furthermore, add a reason to finish the hardest raid like a chance of legendary drops (or something).

This idea of progression is a win win for everyone. Those that burn through the first 3 wings now have a new harder challenge “not for everyone but super elites.” In the mean time, this would allow the original raids to be more accessible to a wider audience and might even remove the required meta min max crap that’s been forced upon the raiding community (at least at the lower level raids).

Why each new wing needs to be harder? Thats make no sense because then by raid 5 -6 there wont be how to be harder. Each new raid needs new kind of bosses with new mechanics, i think ANet did great with raid 4 only the two first bosses are easy. They made an easy boss instead of an event like trio or scort.The 4th boss is on mathias level but it seems easier for us because we are way more experienced before mathias there wasnt another boss on the same level to train. Now we trained for months on mathias

And another thing requiring ascended instead of exotic is not harder. Its just artificial difficulty like other games do with gear trendmill.

That suggestion of pseudo gear progression was pointless anyway. The difference between exotics and ascended is minimal, apart from the weapon. Most of it would likely be lost in the noise.

Also, I do not think that ever increasing difficulty by entire wings instead of bosses is a good idea. That works (to an extent) in MMOs which have gear progression, since you can balance part of the difficulty on new gear, but that’s not possible in GW2. However, new wings probably shouldn’t be easier than old ones.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

And adding a new difficulty won’t solve the “problem” of not finding groups for the normal/hard versions of the Raids. Unless that’s not the problem you want to solve.

So it is solving exactly same problem in other games, but will not solve it here. Okay.

I’m pretty sure it DOESNT solve the problem in other games. From my understanding from other games (DNT is a multi-game guild) most of the intro/easy mode raiders don’t matriculate up to harder difficulties. They do easy mode, get whatever they get out of that and stop raiding until next raid wing where they will do easy mode and stop again. The " real raiders" start at higher difficulties and don’t look back. There is very, very rarely a leap where a low experience casual raider starts in easy mode and works up to Nightmare mode. So no, it doesn’t solve any problem really. It just creates two separate communities.

How is killing an AI “skilled” in gw2?

NikeEU.7690:

I’m pretty sure it DOESNT solve the problem in other games. From my understanding from other games (DNT is a multi-game guild) most of the intro/easy mode raiders don’t matriculate up to harder difficulties.

True, but then that’s not the primary problem those difficulty modes are trying to solve (Rednik is indeed mistaken about that). What they are trying to accomplish is getting a larger part of the community involved, and thus decrease the feeling of exclusion in said community. And this they achieve relatively well.

NikeEU.7690:

It just creates two separate communities.

No. There are already two separate communities, and this separation has been created by the very existence of raids. Easier mode is there to make that split less damaging for the game.

It’s sad the easy mode crowd has to hijack yet another thread about raids tbh.

Anyway, the difficulty is a real issue tbh. I thoroughly enjoyed the last boss. It was the only boss we had that sense of progression on, figuring stuff out. The rest is just… too easy. Most of the ppl in my guild are pretty disappointed about it. I mean come on there’s already a 4 man kill of the first boss. =/

NikeEU.7690:

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

And adding a new difficulty won’t solve the “problem” of not finding groups for the normal/hard versions of the Raids. Unless that’s not the problem you want to solve.

So it is solving exactly same problem in other games, but will not solve it here. Okay.

I’m pretty sure it DOESNT solve the problem in other games. From my understanding from other games (DNT is a multi-game guild) most of the intro/easy mode raiders don’t matriculate up to harder difficulties. They do easy mode, get whatever they get out of that and stop raiding until next raid wing where they will do easy mode and stop again. The " real raiders" start at higher difficulties and don’t look back. There is very, very rarely a leap where a low experience casual raider starts in easy mode and works up to Nightmare mode. So no, it doesn’t solve any problem really. It just creates two separate communities.

This really is a single perspective. I am also a guild leader in a multi-game guild with more than 500 active members (across all games). In speaking with our WoW guild leader (the other game where members raid), they outline a very different approach.

They use a tiered ladder to introduce players to raiding. In order to raid at progression level with the guild, members must first complete all heroic level dungeons and raid lower difficulty raids at least once – including evaluation raids at lower levels to show they are ready for the harder levels. Some move on and some are just as happy to stay at the lower levels – which the guild runs weekly to meet varied needs. When new raids come out, the 10 and 25 player progression raid groups (usually 1-3 groups for each – and they take the content extremely seriously) move up through the difficulties to learn the mechanics and (because it’s WoW) gear up their toons (something I do not miss).

They specifically run those lower levels to bring new members into raiding – and they are far from the only guild in that game to do so.

Blaeys.3102:

They use a tiered ladder to introduce players to raiding.

The question is about pugs not guild groups.
And for pugs it’s a completely different story, knowing the lower tier difficulty of a Raid doesn’t make you an experienced player AT ALL (which was the comment I initially quoted on the subject). Lower difficulty tiers do NOT make you an experienced player in any way or form. And that’s without counting the possibility of doing the lower tier difficulties in WRONG ways which cannot work on the other settings, so not only it doesn’t give you experience, but it gives you the WRONG experience, which is worse.

Again, for pugs.
I don’t really care what happens in other games and how multiple tiers of difficulty help there. I can see how multiple tiers DON’T work in this game. I can see it CLEARLY in Fractals, someone finishing T1 Nightmare Fractal is no way ready for T4 or the Challenge Mote version. In the T1 version you can solo it (that’s how easy it is), in T4 and/or CM it’s really hard to solo, and it’s even hard enough for most full groups. The lower tiers of Fractals do not offer any kind of experience for the higher difficulties.

Astralporing.1957:

True, but then that’s not the primary problem those difficulty modes are trying to solve (Rednik is indeed mistaken about that).

That’s why I pointed that part out. Do multiple tiers of difficulty have merits? Yes they do. Can they create more experienced players for the higher difficulties? No.

maddoctor.2738:

Can they create more experienced players for the higher difficulties? No.

Oh yes, they can. It’s not very common (mostly because majority of players running them are simply not interested in getting better), but they can.

The same would be true here. Majority of players would remain at the easy mode level, because they would have no desire for greater challenge, but some would graduate to hard mode eventually.

It’s like this with Fractals. The lower tier mechanics, while technically the same, are extremely forgiving and, following your reasoning, cannot prepare players for the t4 versions. And yet Fractals do manage to do exactly this somehow, in direct defiance of your claims.

Edit: heh, see you brought fractals up. Interesting how we see the same example to show the exact opposite.

Astralporing.1957:

It’s like this with Fractals (the lower tier mechanics, while technically the same, are extremely forgiving and, by your reasoning, cannot prepare players for the t4 versions. And yet Fractals do manage to do exactly this somehow).

The mechanics are similar but they are defeated in completely different ways. It’s not the same mechanic if you can ignore it and heal through it (or simply ignore it) while in higher tiers you die by it. There is near zero value in teaching T4 Fractals with T1 Fractals.

And even then, Fractals are mostly about hit points and damage so the best example would be Challenge Mote Nightmare versus T1 Nightmare, much more appropriate to Raids as the CM Nightmare has actual more mechanics. A player’s experience in beating T1 Nightmare will be near useless in the CM version (only available in T4)

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

It’s like this with Fractals (the lower tier mechanics, while technically the same, are extremely forgiving and, by your reasoning, cannot prepare players for the t4 versions. And yet Fractals do manage to do exactly this somehow).

The mechanics are similar but they are defeated in completely different ways. It’s not the same mechanic if you can ignore it and heal through it (or simply ignore it) while in higher tiers you die by it. There is near zero value in teaching T4 Fractals with T1 Fractals.

First, near zero is not zero. Second, there are t2 and t3 tiers too. Together they do form a bridge towards t4 difficulty and help in learning the mechanics.

Besides, it’s not as clear-cut as you say. T1 Mai Trin for example is not so much different mechanically from t4, and does force you to learn many parts of the last tier mechanics well enough. Even if it’s also much easier. And it’s not unique in that regard. Even Nightmare benefits from fractal learning ladder, even though the difference between t1 and t4 is massive and large parts of the t4 mechanics are simply missing in lower tiers.

maddoctor.2738:

A player’s experience in beating T1 Nightmare will be near useless in the CM version (only available in T4)

CM cannot be really considered here, as it is a complete rework, not merely a less forgiving version of the same lower-tier mechanics. It’s not an “easy mode/hard mode” split, those are basically two different fractals. I don’t advocate an easy mode based on complete rework on mechanics, as this is indeed generally useless for most purposes.

Astralporing.1957:

CM cannot be really considered here, as it is a complete rework, not merely a less forgiving version of the same lower-tier mechanics. It’s not an “easy mode/hard mode” split, those are basically two different fractals. I don’t advocate an easy mode based on complete rework on mechanics, as this is indeed generally useless for most purposes.

In some cases a number tweak can work. But in other cases it’s impossible, when a Raid skill is a binary result (dead or alive) if you add a middle ground of “take damage” then it’s not the same skill at all. Since number tweaking to make most Raid encounters easier is impossible, a “Fractals-like” difficulty tier isn’t possible either. An easier version of the Raids will either have less mechanics total, or tweaked mechanics, it cannot have “easier” mechanics. Need to choose one of the two.

T3 Fractals is almost dead and T2 Fractals isn’t exactly full of people running either. They are a waste of time and last I checked the question was about adding an easier mode for Raids, that is close to difficulty as T1 fractals, so basically the argument is about having something like T1 and something like T4 with nothing in-between.

Combining the two above, it’s T1 Nightmare versus T4 CM Nightmare.

maddoctor.2738:

In some cases a number tweak can work. But in other cases it’s impossible, when a Raid skill is a binary result (dead or alive) if you add a middle ground of “take damage” then it’s not the same skill at all.

In most cases just tweaking the numbers will be okay. In most others it will also be fine – but the numbers tweaked won’t be to damage. This can result in more time allowed to execute the mechanics, or mechanics being easier to execute (by slight tweaks to it, not due to major rework).

VG has only two mechanics of the second type. First is green circles – merely allowing a bit more time for people to get inside them should be enough, when coupled with, say, lowered damage from seekers. No need to make them less lethal if completely ignored. In the case of blue circles making them a bit more visible and extending the time to react slightly should also be fine, though if other mechanics are tweaked they really could be left as they are now with no change at all.

Similar approach could almost certainly be made to all the skills of other bosses as well without the need to completely redo them in the Nightmare t4<->CM way.

Binary results can be tweaked – you just tweak other things than the primary effect.

And by doing it that way, you will actually end up teaching people about the harder mode mechanics.

Astralporing.1957:

Similar approach could almost certainly be made to all the skills of other bosses as well without the need to completely redo them in the Nightmare t4<→CM way.

VG is probably the only boss without any binary mechanics, let’s say Sabetha’s Flamethrower, would you make it “slower” so players can react faster? So she can be stuck in the Flamethrower animation (she can already be stuck in it) and get damaged more than she should be (she never interrupts the Flamethrower). Or make the Flamethrower not one-shot kill you, which makes it pointless to even exist.

You DO realize that tweaking timings is the same as redoing the skill right? And it is not something done in the difficulty settings of Fractals either. It’s not even something used in Challenge Motes, since Challenge Motes add new mechanics instead of tweaking any timings or speed like what you want.

maddoctor.2738:

VG is probably the only boss without any binary mechanics, let’s say Sabetha’s Flamethrower, would you make it “slower” so players can react faster? So she can be stuck in the Flamethrower animation (she can already be stuck in it) and get damaged more than she should be (she never interrupts the Flamethrower). Or make the Flamethrower not one-shot kill you, which makes it pointless to even exist.

You DO realize that tweaking timings is the same as redoing the skill right? And it is not something done in the difficulty settings of Fractals either. It’s not even something used in Challenge Motes, since Challenge Motes add new mechanics instead of tweaking any timings or speed like what you want.

You know what WoW mechanics have A LOT abilities with damage depending from difficulty “oneshot>oneshot without survival cooldowns>very high damage>high damage” for years, and still easily keeps title of the best raiding game in MMO market? Oneshot mechanics is not some kind of untouchable holy cow, and very high damage spikes replaces is just fine.

Rednik.3809:

WoW […] still easily keeps title of the best raiding game in MMO market?

Now that’s little more than a rumour.

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

They use a tiered ladder to introduce players to raiding.

The question is about pugs not guild groups.

This issue is most definitely not limited to pugging. The OP in this thread doesn’t even use the word pug.

In fact, I never – or almost never – pug (I think I’ve pugged 3 or 4 dungeons in the past 4.5 years). This has never been about pugging to me – even though that is an aspect of it. For me, the bigger issue is groups of friends wanting to experience the content without having to compromise on how they enjoy their characters or the game.

Blaeys.3102:

For me, the bigger issue is groups of friends wanting to experience the content without having to compromise on how they enjoy their characters or the game.

In my opinion, this is the definition of a bad player. Almost anyone can learn to see/react to mechanics and the damage check on all bosses is so low that you really don’t have to be very good at rotations to beat them.

However, a player that is so stubborn that refuses to change their playstyle/build doesn’t get any sympathy from me. This is true in every game mode, so why not raids. A person who runs a PvE build in WvW or PvP is going to struggle and likely be a very poor WvW player or PvP player. Each game mode requires different skill sets, gear, mindset, playstyle etc. Expecting that the content will conform to your playstyle is silly. Players should be REQUIRED to adjust their playstyle as new content comes out.

Playstyle could be anything from “i want to use my staff wvw guardian build”, or “i don’t want to take well on precognition of Demios”, and anything in between. Not making adjustments is the reason for the failure.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Similar approach could almost certainly be made to all the skills of other bosses as well without the need to completely redo them in the Nightmare t4<->CM way.

VG is probably the only boss without any binary mechanics, let’s say Sabetha’s Flamethrower, would you make it “slower” so players can react faster? So she can be stuck in the Flamethrower animation (she can already be stuck in it) and get damaged more than she should be (she never interrupts the Flamethrower).

Somehow i don’t think “damaged more than she should be” would ever be a problem with the easy mode raids. The people able to make full use of this would likely be able to do the hardmode version too, after all. And i fully expect pro raiders to be able to just blast away through those encounters with no problem, the same way experienced t4 fractal runners would steamroll over t1 fractals.

And yes, slowing flamethrower would be the option i’d go for in this case.

maddoctor.2738:

You DO realize that tweaking timings is the same as redoing the skill right?

No. I don’t. Because it really isn’t. The core mechanics of the skill (and your response to it) remain the same. You are simply being given a little bit more of leeway.

maddoctor.2738:

And it is not something done in the difficulty settings of Fractals either.

Actually, it is used at least twice, if i remember it right – the length of Mai Trin’s bombardment phase depends on fractal level, for example, and there’s the time you get to bring wisps to stumps in Swamp.

maddoctor.2738:

It’s not even something used in Challenge Motes, since Challenge Motes add new mechanics instead of tweaking any timings or speed like what you want.

Yes, which is why i don’t use challenge motes as an example of easy/hard mode split i’d like to see.

Astralporing.1957:

The people able to make full use of this would likely be able to do the hardmode version too, after all.

If the flamethrower is slowed we are talking about bugged behavior here.

No. I don’t. Because it really isn’t. The core mechanics of the skill (and your response to it) remain the same. You are simply being given a little bit more of leeway.

No they aren’t the same. The response is completely different, just see the difference in how people respond in T1 fractals and T4 fractals, it’s like a completely different encounter. How are you saying the response is the same when it’s completely different?

Actually, it is used at least twice, if i remember it right – the length of Mai Trin’s bombardment phase depends on fractal level, for example, and there’s the time you get to bring wisps to stumps in Swamp.

None of these are any similar to the Raid mechanics. They are invulnerability phases last I checked.

Yes, which is why i don’t use challenge motes as an example of easy/hard mode split i’d like to see.

Then you aren’t in luck as something like those is the only option.

This thread has gone WAYYY off course, so let me try to get it back on track.
So far I’ve only tried the bosses on normal mode, not challenge mode.

First boss is pretty easy, we’ve even already seen lowmans (including a SOLO) of it. Part of the reason why this is a thing IMO, is that this boss becomes way more difficult, chaotic and annoying with a large group, especially when some players are inattentive and bad. On the other hand, though, your DPS should be much higher, so you should be done with the boss much sooner. Punishes bad gameplay, but a few skilled players can easily lowman it after the rest of the group dies.

Second boss is very easy as well, easier than first one IMO. Not even much coordiation or skill required, you just stack and zerg him to death. Good commander can easily carry a mediocre team through this.

Third boss is a bit more difficult and definitely requires some coordination. There is a lot of personal responsibility, you have to dodge (or sidestep) crucial attacks. The split phase can get sligtly chaotic depending on how coordinated your team is. It will definitely become easier once people get to practice it more.

Last boss (this is kinda a thing in all the other wings as well) is the most difficult of the wing. People need to be good at mechanical execution (dodge attacks, step out of AoEs), but to be honest, only the tank and the kiter have difficult jobs. The rest of the people just need very basic ability to read tells and do their rotation. IMO this boss is more difficult than Matthias, because unlike him, there is a lot of teamplay involved in this fight. Matthias is pretty much just DPS and dodge, barely any coordination needed. Deimos combines aspects of personal execution AND coordinated teamplay.

That being said, I don’t think this wing is strictly easier/harder than any of the other ones. It has its own unique challenges and offers a lot of fun. Seasoned raiders will obviously find a lot of the bosses easier, since they’ll be much more familiar with their classes and can carry over some knowledge from other raids. New raiders should be easily able to pick up the first two bosses, and after some practice, move onto the second two as well.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

No. I don’t. Because it really isn’t. The core mechanics of the skill (and your response to it) remain the same. You are simply being given a little bit more of leeway.

No they aren’t the same. The response is completely different, just see the difference in how people respond in T1 fractals and T4 fractals, it’s like a completely different encounter. How are you saying the response is the same when it’s completely different?

Because it isn’t. Not for people that aren’t that experienced.
Notice how i have mentioned that experienced t4 fractals runners are able to simply roll over first tier with no problem, and can ignore many mechanics (just as, i might add, experienced raiders can sometimes ignore some raid mechanics when they learn up on the fight and their own class’ abilities) – but it’s only for people that are experienced in higher tier fractals/high end content. People that only start the climb won’t have that ability and knowledge yet. And there’s still a lot of mechanics that will have exactly the same approach on all tiers.

The gradual climb in mechanics from kitten t4 through t2 and t3 is a learning experience. You may keep denying that, but it’s exactly how most of the fractal players learned to do t4’s.

Astralporing.1957:

You may keep denying that, but it’s exactly how most of the fractal players learned to do t4’s.

I’d say no, that’s not how fractal players learned how to do T4. The only reason preventing players from jumping to T4 directly is because they are missing AR. I’m quite positive the vast majority (if not all) players with enough AR jumped directly to T4 Nightmare and Chaos without first “trying” the T1 version to get experience.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

You may keep denying that, but it’s exactly how most of the fractal players learned to do t4’s.

I’d say no, that’s not how fractal players learned how to do T4. The only reason preventing players from jumping to T4 directly is because they are missing AR. I’m quite positive the vast majority (if not all) players with enough AR jumped directly to T4 Nightmare and Chaos without first “trying” the T1 version to get experience.

I can vouch for that. Most people who had never touched fractals in my guild, but had enough gold to blow on infusions jumped into whatever tier run they could when we ran them frequently.

Remember, that you’re likely surrounding yourselves with people whose skill is way above average, which seem to significantly skew your perspective. Most new players struggle with t1 when they start playing fractals. Put them in t4 immediately, and they will get slaughtered (learning nothing in the process).

Yes, there are people that could do that. These people are likely already raiding, or could start at current difficulty mode with no problems. They are not for whom easy mode would be made.

Yes, for people that do not need it, the easy mode would be mostly useless. They are however not the only players in the game. You seem to keep forgetting that.

Yea I have to agree with @Astralporing here. Have you guys pugged T1 or T2 recently? I’m currently “stuck” in T2 fractals because I’m not focused on increasing my AR, and its quite ridiculous how bad some people are at fractals. I’m not pretending like I’m some god and am the best player ever, but I at least know what to do, I at least know what my skills do. A surprising amount of people don’t seem to know what their own skills are.

If you consistently run T4 or do raids then you play with people who know their class and know how to play the game, and know the mechanics. That’s an entirely different world from most of the people who play GW2.

OneUP.3024:

this complete wing is an absolute joke. Waited 6-7 months for a new raid and all we get is this. The bosses look cool but their mechanics are either copies from raid 1 mechanics or no mechanics at all. Also 2 Bosses with big hitbox and 2 bosses with medium hitbox. Why would anyone bring anything else but eles to this wing. This raid just shows how little anet understand about their own game and that kicking experienced raid guilds from testing wasn’t a good idea at all.

The only good things are no time gates, no events like escort or trio and the overall look of the wing. The 2nd and 3rd boss are looking sick.

I generally agree with this. My guild is pretty casual and middling in overall skill / dps output, and yet we crushed the new wing pretty handily. We were all shocked, especially given how every other wing was a significantly harder learn. We’re much better than we were back when Spirit Vale came out, but Matthias and Xera are still vastly more intense of encounters than anything in Bastion of the Penitent.

Overall I really enjoy the wing, but I feel as though the mechanics were lacking across the board. Samarog just doesn’t have enough going on; there are entire periods of time where nothing happens to you. Overseer does literally nothing to you, and you can just freecast him down to 1/3 HP before a Scout ever has a chance to become a Soldier. It’s like fighting a DPS Golem. Cairn has annoying tells, but otherwise can be low-manned ridiculously easily given how limited his mechanic palette is. Deimos is arguably the most interesting boss in the wing, but Matthias is way more punishing and difficult. I also agree with OneUp that I feel like too many mechanics were recycled where they didn’t make sense (ie. teleport circles on Cairn, Samarog’s breakbar which is extremely similar to Matthias’, kiting some AOE field at long range, etc).

I will say, however, that the animations, enemy models, and general ambiance of the raid wing was on point. That aspect of the raid really redeems it, and makes it an awesome experience regardless. Hopefully this feedback helps the raid team going forward; this is definitely not a slam dunk like the Fractal team’s Nightmare Fractal.

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, there are people that could do that. These people are likely already raiding, or could start at current difficulty mode with no problems. They are not for whom easy mode would be made.

People who are struggling with T1 or are not comfortable running T4 will stay in T1 in their lifetime. That’s fine but irrelevant to what was being discussed.

OriOri.8724:

I’m currently “stuck” in T2 fractals because I’m not focused on increasing my AR, and its quite ridiculous how bad some people are at fractals.

In both cases, having the T1 is useful for those who cannot go above that, but let’s don’t pretend it’s useful for those who want to train for T4 as was the original discussion. Players being bad at playing the game and not knowing their builds won’t become better by playing T1 Fractals where you do not need to play your build well or know how to play well.

And even beyond that. Using the Fractal example again, those who trained to be better players and are now running T4 do not need a “training” version for any future fractals anymore.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, there are people that could do that. These people are likely already raiding, or could start at current difficulty mode with no problems. They are not for whom easy mode would be made.

People who are struggling with T1 or are not comfortable running T4 will stay in T1 in their lifetime.

Ah. Yeah. Everyone either starts at 110% efficiency, or they will remain scrubs forever. Got this.
…seriously?

maddoctor.2738:

That’s fine but irrelevant to what was being discussed.

Nah, i think what you just said is a really good illustration how …disassociated you are from the community and how badly that impact your perception.
It’s pretty clear now that your opinions on how the game works outside of your narrow playing field are seriously flawed. And that field is indeed really narrow.

maddoctor.2738:

In both cases, having the T1 is useful for those who cannot go above that, but let’s don’t pretend it’s useful for those who want to train for T4 as was the original discussion.

T1 alone are not enough, but kitten,t3,t4 progression is very useful as far as learning goes. It’s not useful only to people that have already learned most of those lessons elsewhere.

maddoctor.2738:

And even beyond that. Using the Fractal example again, those who trained to be better players and are now running T4 do not need a “training” version for any future fractals anymore.

Yeah. Just as the people that are running current raids do not need easy mode. That doesn’t mean (again) that those are not needed for everyone else.

You seem to think that the game should completely ignore all players that are not experienced and skilled veterans. Sometimes i even think that you forget that such players even exist.

Astralporing.1957:

Ah. Yeah. Everyone either starts at 110% efficiency, or they will remain scrubs forever. Got this.

You do know that players can learn how to play from a variety of content and knowing how a SPECIFIC content works is largely irrelevant, right? You don’t need an easy version of an encounter to become a better player, and once you are a better player you don’t need an easy version of future content either.

It’s not useful only to people that have already learned most of those lessons elsewhere.

And again, as I said above, you don’t need an easy version of specific content to become a better player as a whole. You can very very easily get your lessons and become a better player by playing Fractals before ever entering Raids. Fractals have multiple tiers that you want, climb the tiers of Fractals you so like and once you reach the top of Fractals you can move on to Raids. That’s all the training and experience you’ll ever need.

Yeah. Just as the people that are running current raids do not need easy mode. That doesn’t mean (again) that those are not needed for everyone else.

It does mean it’s not needed for everyone else. Since you say this easy mode will help TRAIN people for the normal version of Raids, it means players playing the easy version will move on to the normal version by using the experience they got in the easy version. Otherwise there is no point in calling it training now is there? And once they do move on and master the normal version of one Raid there is no need for an easy mode for future raids (as training) anymore.

You seem to think that the game should completely ignore all players that are not experienced and skilled veterans. Sometimes i even think that you forget that such players even exist.

Those players have a ton of content in the game to play in order to become veterans and skilled players before going to play the content that is for veteran and skilled players.

…now i’m sure. We’re definitely playing a completely different game, and with completely different people.

I guess the community split is just too wide for us to even speak the same language.

Astralporing.1957:

I guess the community split is just too wide for us to even speak the same language.

I don’t know what you are on about.

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

I’m pretty sure it DOESNT solve the problem in other games. From my understanding from other games (DNT is a multi-game guild) most of the intro/easy mode raiders don’t matriculate up to harder difficulties.

True, but then that’s not the primary problem those difficulty modes are trying to solve (Rednik is indeed mistaken about that).

You even agreed that those who run intro/easy mode raids do not go to the higher difficulties and yet after that you are trying to prove otherwise. It’s simple, those who run the easy versions run those and won’t run the harder versions so following the initial argument (which you also said was mistaken) my initial assessment that

And adding a new difficulty won’t solve the “problem” of not finding groups for the normal/hard versions of the Raids.

is accurate. Why have we been going on and on with multiple posts since then?

fixing forum bugs