The raids need an easy "story mode"
A really good overview of the issues with raids and possible fixes on MassivelyOP today -
Definitely worth a read.
Its time for Anet to look at history and understand the mistakes already made and solved by the 800lb. gorilla, WoW. WoW’s implementation of LFR has been very successful, and there is absolutely no reason why Anet has not yet implemented an LFR system with easier raids that give reduced rewards (ie: less Ascended currency and no path to Legendary Armor through the LFR). That way, casual players are more likely to complete the content, get something for their effort AND see the story. The only argument against this is some weird elitist mental block… which makes no sense since those that complete the real raid will be rewarded more, and have the opportunity for prestigious legendary armor.
WoW’s LFR was and still is very flawed. It’s initial lead developer Ghostcrawler even said as much.
Did it solve some problems, sure. But it isn’t a tool worth of the pedestal you’re hoisting it upon.
Its time for Anet to look at history and understand the mistakes already made and solved by the 800lb. gorilla, WoW. WoW’s implementation of LFR has been very successful, and there is absolutely no reason why Anet has not yet implemented an LFR system with easier raids that give reduced rewards (ie: less Ascended currency and no path to Legendary Armor through the LFR). That way, casual players are more likely to complete the content, get something for their effort AND see the story. The only argument against this is some weird elitist mental block… which makes no sense since those that complete the real raid will be rewarded more, and have the opportunity for prestigious legendary armor.
WoW’s LFR was and still is very flawed. It’s initial lead developer Ghostcrawler even said as much.
Did it solve some problems, sure. But it isn’t a tool worth of the pedestal you’re hoisting it upon.
I actually agree. Not sure the LFR model was one worth emulating. The LFG system in WoW, in general, is (or was when I played) pretty sketchy – but not for difficulty reasons. The forced grouping took some of the camaraderie out of the game (which I believe was GCs primary issue with it as well). I like the group finder tool in GW2 much better – it allows players to retain more control over the kind of group they get – or get into.
Again, it wasnt about the difficulty level as much as it was about the forced grouping aspect.
As far as sytems to emulate, a friend recently told me about flex raiding in WoW (something obviously inspired by GW2, ironically enough). Basically it is an easier mode that scales based on the number of people in the raid squad (so 11, 13, 16, etc people groups would be possible). I know it is probably not possible with the game engine, but it seems like something that would work very well in this game.
Not saying that either is the answer, just options. The easiest approach is probably just a straight nerf of some kind (basically the inverse of what they did with challenge motes in wing 4)
There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….Yeah… almost like those games were targeted at different people or something…
Surprising, right?(When i want to play a hard game, i play a hard game. GW2 i play for completely different reasons however).
gw2 was never advertised as the faceroll easy game you make it out to be.
No, but that’s the game it started out being and that’s the market it appealed to. Even Dungeons, the hardest content at the time of release, were not hard by industry standards.
Thats why they nerfed them after some time and ppl were buying arah paths for 5 or 10g? What something started doesnt mean this is what the devs want it to be also. A company needs to advertise to a big audience so yeah and diff parts of the playerbase have diff niches and like diff things i like the pvp armors and backpiece that doesnt mean i ask for an ez way to get them so i go through the trouble of pvping for it. The devs have also increase te diff in the entire pve part of the game with harder mobs encounters and w/e meaning the want to raise the skill lvl of the average player.
I don’t know why they nerfed them … but if you were implying they were hard … I’m not sure what to tell you. I can tell you that this game appeals to a certain market that appreciates a leisurely romp through Core GW2 with no problems … and that’s not a dev decision, that’s a Anet business Executives decision.
A really good overview of the issues with raids and possible fixes on MassivelyOP today -
Definitely worth a read.
The issue I have with the read is that it’s another author again misconstruing the original premise behind GW2 at launch. I get this from a part in the 2nd paragraph under the ‘Financial Sense’ section, and it almost seems like Tina dodges a lot with the explanation:
“The answer is complicated, but the first point to note is that Guild Wars 2 was never originally designed with raiding in mind and so the core playerbase is not necessarily looking for this type of punishing, time-intensive content in the first place. What I will say, however, is that creating raids for the minority of players who do enjoy them isn’t an inherently bad move simply because the market for raids is niche, especially in a game with a sometimes overwhelming amount of activities to engage in that appeal to larger groups of the game’s community.”
GW2 has had elite content since launch, they’ve always WANTED dungeons to be the end-game, and ultimately if you think about it carefully, Legendary Weapons were the End-game cosmetic item since they drew heavy influence from doing these elite dungeons, doing map completion, doing WvW for Badges of Honor, and so forth.
Unfortunately the Dungeons were flawed, and eventually outclassed. A rather inclusive meta formed that made few professions viable with only a single stat set. That was mainly Vanilla. Another issue I find is that she uses the excuse that ’It’s complicated’ while throwing shade on the fact that Raiding is niche, as if other niche content is A-OK somehow.
At the very least she gets down to it, she talks about how players who don’t raid miss nuggets of lore, because somehow she hasn’t had the time to ask for a cleared instance of any raid wing. But she later follows up with that simply watching videos or going there after the fact wouldn’t sate her personally, because that’s not her issue. She also has a warped sense of ‘Key Story Content’ when the side-stories told within the raids so far, could have ended up on a Bookshelf in real life somewhere. But hey at least then we could all have paid real cash to get the same experience right? The Raid lore has continued to keep away from the Elder Dragon Storyline for a REASON.
She correlates to a quote from another user about Bobby trying to find a balance between raiding and story, and I think it’s very clear that Bobby and the Narrative crew are trying their hardest to give non-raiders the lore they need without the need to kill the raid bosses. At the very least she admits that the Lore is definitely enhanced by what it takes to have it brought out, the encounters being so difficult helps make the lore better, not worse.
…Despite a bunch of what I saw, there were a few solutions I was in favor of. The issue would be the amount of work involved, they can’t impede their already slow Raid Teams by forcing them to develop something like a Solo-Mode with NPCs. They would have to bring in other resources, maybe even Expansion or Living Story crews to help develop these rewardless ‘Story-Modes’.
Then we have a few other things to consider after that, is it worth their time? Should they put more development into raiding, is GW2 going to actually become a Raiding MMO or should they just keep it niche? Also, is the number of raiders participating a healthy number right now, and is it negatively, neutrally, or positively impacting their financial numbers?
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
…Despite a bunch of what I saw, there were a few solutions I was in favor of. The issue would be the amount of work involved, they can’t impede their already slow Raid Teams by forcing them to develop something like a Solo-Mode with NPCs. They would have to bring in other resources, maybe even Expansion or Living Story crews to help develop these rewardless ‘Story-Modes’.
I dont think this is necessarily true.
They proved that they can implement multiple versions fairly easily with the last raid in the form of the challenge motes.
I may be wrong, but it seems like it would be simple enough to make the regular version the harder mode and then use the mote system (or resources that would have gone into it) to offer “story motes” or “training motes.”
Voila – the answer to the issue for what would probably be the same effort put into the last raid wing.
Given that most raiders I know didnt like the mote system anyway, it seems like a MUCH better use of those resources.
Whether you agree with the article or not, I think it shows what weve been seeing here and on reddit for a while now – there is a clear community outcry for some kind of solution, something I’m personally glad to see.
I think it is just a matter of time before Anet finally realizes this is needed.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
It’s very plausible that you can be wrong though Blaeys. We don’t know the extent of which it took to bring out this last wing, we do know a raid dev had to go away for a month to train other new Staff, and Bastion took a far longer time to develop than the previous wings.
And like I said, if Arenanet sees Raids in a comfortable spot right now, they are under no obligation to change their course to make GW2 into a raid-centric game, and instead focus on developing the other areas of the game to a similar quality as raids have become in their niche.
We might never see Raids stretch difficulty settings beyond what we have now. Although I do imagine the Raid staff is aware that their raids are being done in many original methods that they might start challenging their niche audience further. We will see.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
A perfect example of “easy mode” raiding are the 3 bosses of wing 4. These bosses are basically a clown fiesta in terms of difficulty, that’s right u can play like a clown and still clear them. And yet i’ve seen so many groups wiping over and over and over, especially on samarog’s slow motion attacks where u have 3-4 secs to see the attack coming.
It just shows that making easy mode won’t solve anything cause the majority of the playerbase will never adjust, never get better and remain stagnant and outdaited even after 3 years of GW2.
Changing the raids (which are atm wonderfully balanced and amazing) to something dumb and braindead would open up the game mode to people that arent really interested in it and drive away those who actually are.
Let’s be real here, most people who are interested in raids are raiding already instead of qqing on the forums.
I wonder what’s harder, doing normal mode Cairn or fighting Wyvern Patriarch in VB?
The first boss of W4 feels like a slightly more impressive Open-World boss, which I don’t mind honestly. As long as the wing became more difficult as you progressed.
Samarog normal mode was really close to being a decent third boss, they should have kept the spear pattern from Challenge Mote, except naturally keeping them able to be damage or killed in normal. That would have been enough imo.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
The pure existence of challenge motes has already solved the problem. Whether or not the “activation” of a mote makes the base fight harder, or a hard fight easier is irrelevant.
In fact, the current implementation is actually better for crowd looking for an “easy mote”, where as the motes being shifted to make the fight easier benefits the current raiding community.
If you are going to argue anything, it would be that the normal mode isn’t easy enough, which is clearly an opinion that can’t really be measured by the community.
The pure existence of challenge motes has already solved the problem. Whether or not the “activation” of a mote makes the base fight harder, or a hard fight easier is irrelevant.
In fact, the current implementation is actually better for crowd looking for an “easy mote”, where as the motes being shifted to make the fight easier benefits the current raiding community.
If you are going to argue anything, it would be that the normal mode isn’t easy enough, which is clearly an opinion that can’t really be measured by the community.
First, for this to be true, it would need to apply to all bosses in a wing. With the 4th still significantly harder, the story and experience accessibility remain problematic.
Second, as I’ve said before, it isn’t as much about easy as it is about development around – or close to – the meta.
yes the first three are pretty easy if you adhere to the meta – or some facsimile. But, there are still far too many builds and group compositions that have no realistic way to enjoy the content.
Providing the lower difficulty mode isnt about faceroll as much as it is about letting people experience the content without compromising how they love to play their characters.
And again – I realize that experienced raiders can defeat almost any boss on any profession and most builds. That obviously isnt the player group we are talking about here.
So, it isnt quite as simple as you try to make it sound.
The pure existence of challenge motes has already solved the problem. Whether or not the “activation” of a mote makes the base fight harder, or a hard fight easier is irrelevant.
In fact, the current implementation is actually better for crowd looking for an “easy mote”, where as the motes being shifted to make the fight easier benefits the current raiding community.
If you are going to argue anything, it would be that the normal mode isn’t easy enough, which is clearly an opinion that can’t really be measured by the community.
First, for this to be true, it would need to apply to all bosses in a wing. With the 4th still significantly harder, the story and experience accessibility remain problematic.
Second, as I’ve said before, it isn’t as much about easy as it is about development around – or close to – the meta.
yes the first three are pretty easy if you adhere to the meta – or some facsimile. But, there are still far too many builds and group compositions that have no realistic way to enjoy the content.
Providing the lower difficulty mode isnt about faceroll as much as it is about letting people experience the content without compromising how they love to play their characters.
And again – I realize that experienced raiders can defeat almost any boss on any profession and most builds. That obviously isnt the player group we are talking about here.
So, it isnt quite as simple as you try to make it sound.
The “meta” part sounds like a balance team problem then?
Why does it have to apply to all bosses in the wing? Because the lore is there? What if all the lore stopped at Samarog? Would that still apply? Why don’t we just remove all lore from raids entirely and just fight generic baddies then? Would this still be a problem?
“yes the first three are pretty easy if you adhere to the meta – or some facsimile. But, there are still far too many builds and group compositions that have no realistic way to enjoy the content. "
- My point exactly. It is “easy” but not “easy enough”. Also, I don’t think you can completely ignore the audience. The fact of the matter is that player skill in this game is so spread out and is SOOO much more important for challenging content than builds. The audience you are trying to cater towards likely couldn’t even complete the raids in meta builds, even if all boss attacks did 0 damage until the enrage, simply due to the widespread player skill.
If we are going to create/argue for an easy mode, I’m at least going to be honest and just say we need it not because of builds, meta, group comps, team speak, toxicity, etc, but because the audience who wants to see the lore is so bad at this game that no matter the mathematical odds of success, they still won’t complete it, nor have the desire to do so.
I tend to have scrambled rants to please forgive me on that :P. As you’ve probably notice in other posts, I’m totally okay with the request for easier versions. What I’m extremely tired of is this profound sense that those who “need” an easy mote because ANET, other players, ‘the meta’, etc have decided for them. No! Its always your choice. If you cannot complete the raids because:
1. You choose to not join a guild
2. You choose to play an off meta build, but play it well and don’t get groups
3. You choose to play a meta build and play it terribly
4. You choose to play an off meta build and play it terribly
5. You choose to not join a voice chat and get kicked
6. You choose to join non-training runs for your first attempts at bosses
7. You choose to prioritize real life events over late night raiding (OMG I know right?)
8. <insert any other excuse here>
I’m so tired of folks making these excuses and complaining that its other players or ANETs fault. NO! If you can’t do something in this game, its always your fault. Just own it, and admit that you want an easier version because the choices you’ve made have resulted in you missing the content.
(edited by ButterPeanut.9746)
The “meta” part sounds like a balance team problem then?
Without completely watering down and homogenizing every profession and build (which we should never want), balance in a game like this is a pipe dream. It will never happen.
That is why the solution has to come from the other side of the equation – the encounters. And, imo, the only real way to do that and still hope to retain any kind of difficulty for min/maxers is through tiers.
The Samarog point – if that encounter is part of the story/experience/etc of the raid, then radically changing difficulty or not offering an option at that fight is probably even worse than 3 easy + 1 difficult fights. It’s basically a big tease saying, you made it this far, but we dont want you to see the end.
The “meta” part sounds like a balance team problem then?
Without completely watering down and homogenizing every profession and build (which we should never want), balance in a game like this is a pipe dream. It will never happen.
That is why the solution has to come from the other side of the equation – the encounters. And, imo, the only real way to do that and still hope to retain any kind of difficulty for min/maxers is through tiers.
The Samarog point – if that encounter is part of the story/experience/etc of the raid, then radically changing difficulty or not offering an option at that fight is probably even worse than 3 easy + 1 difficult fights. It’s basically a big tease saying, you made it this far, but we dont want you to see the end.
No…its saying “You’ve made it this far and we want to see you adapt/improve/change to see the end”. This is exactly what ANET wants, but isn’t what the easy mode crowd wants, which is the disconnect.
The “meta” part sounds like a balance team problem then?
Without completely watering down and homogenizing every profession and build (which we should never want), balance in a game like this is a pipe dream. It will never happen.
That is why the solution has to come from the other side of the equation – the encounters. And, imo, the only real way to do that and still hope to retain any kind of difficulty for min/maxers is through tiers.
The Samarog point – if that encounter is part of the story/experience/etc of the raid, then radically changing difficulty or not offering an option at that fight is probably even worse than 3 easy + 1 difficult fights. It’s basically a big tease saying, you made it this far, but we dont want you to see the end.
No…its saying “You’ve made it this far and we want to see you adapt/improve/change to see the end”. This is exactly what ANET wants, but isn’t what the easy mode crowd wants, which is the disconnect.
Again, it is a matter of perception.
You could just as easily word it “You’ve made it this far, but we want you to change the nature of your character and stop playing the way you most enjoy to see the end.”
Neither is wrong – again, just a matter of your perception and why you play GW2.
Which again, is an argument in favor of multiple difficulty tiers. It is impossible to offer a full and fun experience for such divergent groups in a single game mode. You end up having to water down the content to the level it is no longer challenging for the people looking for challenge (which is the direction they seem to have started toward with the last wing).
The “meta” part sounds like a balance team problem then?
Without completely watering down and homogenizing every profession and build (which we should never want), balance in a game like this is a pipe dream. It will never happen.
That is why the solution has to come from the other side of the equation – the encounters. And, imo, the only real way to do that and still hope to retain any kind of difficulty for min/maxers is through tiers.
The Samarog point – if that encounter is part of the story/experience/etc of the raid, then radically changing difficulty or not offering an option at that fight is probably even worse than 3 easy + 1 difficult fights. It’s basically a big tease saying, you made it this far, but we dont want you to see the end.
No…its saying “You’ve made it this far and we want to see you adapt/improve/change to see the end”. This is exactly what ANET wants, but isn’t what the easy mode crowd wants, which is the disconnect.
Again, it is a matter of perception.
You could just as easily word it “You’ve made it this far, but we want you to change the nature of your character and stop playing the way you most enjoy to see the end.”
Neither is wrong – again, just a matter of your perception and why you play GW2.
Which again, is an argument in favor of multiple difficulty tiers. It is impossible to offer a full and fun experience for such divergent groups in a single game mode. You end up having to water down the content to the level it is no longer challenging for the people looking for challenge (which is the direction they seem to have started toward with the last wing).
I don’t disagree. Another option is to simply remove all incentive for the casual audience to want to raid (i.e. lore)
I don’t think you are victim of this, but per my previous post, I don’t think most people who are “anti easy mode” are because they don’t want to see other players involved. Its more that often those who want an easy mode repeatedly try to play the victim in the situation and it is beyond frustrating to hear it over and over again.
For example: You could just as easily word it “You’ve made it this far, but we want you to change the nature of your character and stop playing the way you most enjoy to see the end.”"
Many “pro easy mode” players (not necessarily you) would interpret that statement as "ANET and other players won’t let me play how I want. Its all their fault, please stop being so toxic. In reality this isn’t true at all. Each player who doesn’t change the nature of their character to adjust to the content is at fault…not ANET. It is a choice that each player makes. If you can’t clear content and you want to, then change. Its always your fault if you can’t do something in this game. Nobody else is responsible but you. You aren’t the victim.
Now, if you want to argue for tired difficulty and your argument is “hey I know i’m stubborn and I don’t want to change my play-style, ANET please cater this content specifically so I can complete it”, then fine! But when requesting something, I simply ask that everyone at least own that they are the reason for the failure to play the content. Not the content itself, not other players, just you.
Almost every game ever, locks parts of its game behind a certain barrier of difficulty or accomplishment. In other games you may need to adapt your playstyle or character to be able to continue the game. I don’t understand why this is acceptable in other games, yet in GW2 everything needs to be accessible to everyone?
Would it be bad if you could only clear content with very specific meta compositions? Yes, but that’s not the case. The enrage timers are very lenient and if you succeed at the mechanics, you can kill bosses with a wide variety of compositions. Do you probably need at least 1 healer to complete certain bosses? yes you do. A druid, ventari healer or a temepst healer perhaps. But I dont understand why it’s a massive problem for people to make tiny adjustments to their playstyle in order to play the content.
If people enjoyed playing a zerk core mesmer in core Tyria before and found that they struggled in the HoT maps, is it crazy to expect them to slightly alter their build or hone their skills in order to continue the content? No. This is one of the core ideas of gaming.
Almost every game ever, locks parts of its game behind a certain barrier of difficulty or accomplishment. In other games you may need to adapt your playstyle or character to be able to continue the game. I don’t understand why this is acceptable in other games, yet in GW2 everything needs to be accessible to everyone?
– SNIP -
Because GW2 at launch, everything in PVE was available to everyone, the only barrier being time investment. More skilled players would complete the content much faster than less skilled players, but less skilled players would still be able to complete the content. With HoT there was a clear shift in the way that the game was developed.
GW2 developed the stigma of “casual” game, where casual some how meant easy. This game was never intended to be easy (even though it was for a long time), and they appear to be in the steps to correct that. Encounters in this game were always supposed to challenge your build, and have you adapt your build to the environment, not take one build and use it everywhere.
I don’t think any of the PvE in this game should be developed to the level where it doesn’t matter what your build is (unless you are skilled enough to compensate for the shortcomings in your build). I like that starting with HoT general PvE started requiring some thought into your build to handle or make the encounter easier. And yes, that means that people that are unwilling to change or tweak their builds to the encounter will either 1) not participate or 2) find people who can carry them.
So the question that everyone has to ask is:
At what point does the content become a ‘Player’ issue rather than a ‘Content’ issue?
Where’s the line? I’m fairly certain each of us in the discussion has a fairly significant difference on where this line is, given how different we see the future of raid content in this game to be.
Just to make it clear, I am absolutely opposed to the concept that it is never the player’s fault that they can’t do the content. There has to be a certain level the developers have to expect from the players in order for content to continue to grow and become interesting, there has to be some level of adaptability.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
So the question that everyone has to ask is:
At what point does the content become a ‘Player’ issue rather than a ‘Content’ issue?
Where’s the line? I’m fairly certain each of us in the discussion has a fairly significant difference on where this line is, given how different we see the future of raid content in this game to be.
Just to make it clear, I am absolutely opposed to the concept that it is never the player’s fault that they can’t do the content. There has to be a certain level the developers have to expect from the players in order for content to continue to grow and become interesting, there has to be some level of adaptability.
The answer will obviously have huge bias and variety, but IMO, if the majority of the raid encounters can be completed by less than half of the maximum number of people in a raid, then it is always a player problem. You’re non-meta build is probably fine, but that doesn’t mean you are good enough at it. Cairn was solo’d within a few weeks…just let that sink in.
Because GW2 at launch, everything in PVE was available to everyone, the only barrier being time investment.
So explain what if anything changed ?
Because i sure as heck am not seeing anyone being isolated from raids if the put in the time to do so. Raids are available to everyone, it’s just a personal problem/belief/motive that keeps people who want to raid from doing so, not a game issue in the slightest.
Because GW2 at launch, everything in PVE was available to everyone, the only barrier being time investment.
So explain what if anything changed ?
Because i sure as heck am not seeing anyone being isolated from raids if the put in the time to do so. Raids are available to everyone, it’s just a personal problem/belief/motive that keeps people who want to raid from doing so, not a game issue in the slightest.
Perhaps that didn’t come across clearly. Take dungeons for example, you never had to get better at the game (no time investment), and you could eventually clear the content, even if it took you 3 hours as a group on one boss. With some of the newer bosses, not just in raids (looking at you vinetooth prime) you have a strict time limit that does require you to know a halfway decent rotation (in the case of prime, when to CC). Vanilla hardly ever had this, or had it be as punishing.
A good example might be Gorseval or Sab, you have hard timers in those fights, requiring you know your class dps very well or adapt it to the situation (6/10 slots for dps, so most likely dps). Dungeons, you could literally finish just by auto attacking….
Edit for further clarity: Raids are available to everyone, but to be successful you have to improve and put in effort. Dungeons were available to everyone, but to successfully complete it just took time.
(edited by Fatalyz.7168)
So the question that everyone has to ask is:
At what point does the content become a ‘Player’ issue rather than a ‘Content’ issue?
It’s a player issue if it doesn’t negatively affect the company bottom line and game popularity. Once it starts doing that, it turns into a game issue.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
So the question that everyone has to ask is:
At what point does the content become a ‘Player’ issue rather than a ‘Content’ issue?
It’s a player issue if it doesn’t negatively affect the company bottom line and game popularity. Once it starts doing that, it turns into a game issue.
That’s a specific answer that I’ll agree with. Specifically because it implies that Arenanet is always going to look for the financial benefits of their content decisions, both short and long term.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
So the question that everyone has to ask is:
At what point does the content become a ‘Player’ issue rather than a ‘Content’ issue?
It’s a player issue if it doesn’t negatively affect the company bottom line and game popularity. Once it starts doing that, it turns into a game issue.
The problem is we will never know if/when that is true. Every single number or stat related to finances simply put that less total money was gained. We have absolutely no way of knowing for certain that it was from lack of gem sales, free to play, HoT open world problems, lack of PvP esports, WvW issues, raids, fractal revamp,etc. There is no way of knowing so everyone should refrain from using it in any argument to support your opinion, because it completely invalidates it.
Dungeons were available to everyone, but to successfully complete it just took time.
That’s definitely not true!
Lupicus was and still is a big barrier for several players not being as skilled as others. I have run Arah over the last weeks and people still struggle there. Even with their full nomad guard they die and it would go for months not hours – comparable to one raid boss.
Crucible of Eternity also is a dungeon not every group was and is able to succeed. CoF P3 as well as CM P2, not to speak of Aetherblade path in TA.
And you are not the only one committing a mistake here: Not every content in GW2 was designed to cater to anyone + being simple. Dungeons for example were difficult and weren’t played regularly at the beginning. They became easier but not very fast after release. Back in the days almost nobody was running Arah except addicted dungeon fans because it was too hard/took too long for the average player. Same with raids now. The situation is comparable with early to mid 2013.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
No need for a raid story mode … i think removing boss enrage timer on old wings should be enough.
People could use any build and enjoy old raids encounters while PvE focused guild still have challenges on new raid wings.
No need for a raid story mode … i think removing boss enrage timer on old wings should be enough.
People could use any build and enjoy old raids encounters while PvE focused guild still have challenges on new raid wings.
Which defeats the whole purpose of why raids were created in the first place.
No need for a raid story mode … i think removing boss enrage timer on old wings should be enough.
People could use any build and enjoy old raids encounters while PvE focused guild still have challenges on new raid wings.Which defeats the whole purpose of why raids were created in the first place.
Which is part of the reason why story mode is needed – to preserve the integrity of the hard mode. In fact, the existence of greater accessibility would most likely give the devs freer rein to make more difficult encounters moving forward.
There are two real solutions to this issue, imo – tiered levels or a gradual compromising/watering down of the content to the point where it doesn’t really meet anyone’s needs.
We are already starting to see the second make its way into the game in some of the wing 4 fights. Is that really the direction anyone wants to see them take raids?
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
No need for a raid story mode … i think removing boss enrage timer on old wings should be enough.
People could use any build and enjoy old raids encounters while PvE focused guild still have challenges on new raid wings.Which defeats the whole purpose of why raids were created in the first place.
Which is part of the reason why story mode is needed – to preserve the integrity of the hard mode. In fact, the existence of greater accessibility would most likely give the devs freer rein to make more difficult encounters moving forward.
There are two real solutions to this issue, imo – tiered levels or a gradual compromising/watering down of the content to the point where it doesn’t really meet anyone’s needs.
We are already starting to see the second make its way into the game in some of the wing 4 fights. Is that really the direction anyone wants to see them take raids?
To be completely honest the Devs could just keep all Raid wings at the same level as W1-3 since they were designed with a specific idea and a specific audience, which bubble anets own admission exceeded their expectations of participation, and the other players can improve their gameplay if they actual want to see the story or have The Experience of the Raids and then the actual philosophy of the Raids doesn’t have to be at risk.
It’s not an issue if content that was designed for a specific audience doesn’t meet the wants or need of players not of hat specific audience.
But carebears will be carebears, and want the easy mode no matter what.
Edit for further clarity: Raids are available to everyone, but to be successful you have to improve and put in effort. Dungeons were available to everyone, but to successfully complete it just took time.
So what this boils down to is people not putting in quality time.
Like that guy you know (everyone knows this guy) who complains he doesn’t have a 6 pack but never goes to the gym/works out and drink nothing but beer ?
Yeah, you know sometimes you just gotta change to get what you want. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Edit for further clarity: Raids are available to everyone, but to be successful you have to improve and put in effort. Dungeons were available to everyone, but to successfully complete it just took time.
So what this boils down to is people not putting in quality time.
Like that guy you know (everyone knows this guy) who complains he doesn’t have a 6 pack but never goes to the gym/works out and drink nothing but beer ?
Yeah, you know sometimes you just gotta change to get what you want. There’s nothing wrong with that.
I agree.
No need for a raid story mode … i think removing boss enrage timer on old wings should be enough.
People could use any build and enjoy old raids encounters while PvE focused guild still have challenges on new raid wings.Which defeats the whole purpose of why raids were created in the first place.
Which is part of the reason why story mode is needed – to preserve the integrity of the hard mode. In fact, the existence of greater accessibility would most likely give the devs freer rein to make more difficult encounters moving forward.
There are two real solutions to this issue, imo – tiered levels or a gradual compromising/watering down of the content to the point where it doesn’t really meet anyone’s needs.
We are already starting to see the second make its way into the game in some of the wing 4 fights. Is that really the direction anyone wants to see them take raids?
There is a third option. Anet can continue developing raids the way that they have been, and not change anything. Maybe some people don’t feel that is a viable solution. Unfortunately for them, it is, and so far seems to be what Anet is doing.
No need for a raid story mode … i think removing boss enrage timer on old wings should be enough.
People could use any build and enjoy old raids encounters while PvE focused guild still have challenges on new raid wings.Which defeats the whole purpose of why raids were created in the first place.
Which is part of the reason why story mode is needed – to preserve the integrity of the hard mode. In fact, the existence of greater accessibility would most likely give the devs freer rein to make more difficult encounters moving forward.
There are two real solutions to this issue, imo – tiered levels or a gradual compromising/watering down of the content to the point where it doesn’t really meet anyone’s needs.
We are already starting to see the second make its way into the game in some of the wing 4 fights. Is that really the direction anyone wants to see them take raids?
Its sole purpose was to give players that want a challenge just that. Raids entire existence is for those that wanted a challenge. Adding a story mode changes that purpose.
Its sole purpose was to give players that want a challenge just that. Raids entire existence is for those that wanted a challenge. Adding a story mode changes that purpose.
It’s time to be realistic, however. They have already expressed an interest to get more people into raids or to “ease people into them.” The first three fights in wing 4 are the early, half attempts at making that happen. The path forward, if they stick with what they are doing now, will pretty much beone compromising that purpose you talk about – in the attempt to expand the appeal of raids.
It won’t be either/or – it will be a watering down for everyone.
And, I strongly disagree that ADDING a story mode changes the purpose of the actually challenging mode. That really is just common sense.
In fact, for the very reason I list above, the additional mode would give them more developmental freedom to adhere to that original purpose. It would allow them to design truly challenging encounters without having to worry about these other issues and criticisms.
As strange as it sounds, staying on the course they are on now will be exactly what kills their ability to offer that challenge so many (including myself) want to see thrive in the game.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Its sole purpose was to give players that want a challenge just that. Raids entire existence is for those that wanted a challenge. Adding a story mode changes that purpose.
It’s time to be realistic, however. They have already expressed an interest to get more people into raids or to “ease people into them.” The first three fights in wing 4 are the early, half attempts at making that happen. The path forward, if they stick with what they are doing now, will pretty much beone compromising that purpose you talk about – in the attempt to expand the appeal of raids.
It won’t be either/or – it will be a watering down for everyone.
And, I strongly disagree that ADDING a story mode changes the purpose of the actually challenging mode. That really is just common sense.
In fact, for the very reason I list above, the additional mode would give them more developmental freedom to adhere to that original purpose. It would allow them to design truly challenging encounters without having to worry about these other issues and criticisms.
As strange as it sounds, staying on the course they are on now will be exactly what kills their ability to offer that challenge so many (including myself) want to see thrive in the game.
Or they can just allow players to open empty instances and experience the story elements there. However, if there is an actual story mode, there are several things that should go along with it:
- No achievement progress which cannot be done in a cleared instance
- No collection progress
- No LI
- No magnetite shards
All people get is the story. That’s it.
It would essentially be a waste of resources though. Some champ bags would make it help slightly, but I am definitely going to wager that there will still be people complaining about the rewards.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Which they could then play the raids on normal to get the rewards.
And we’ve come back full circle.
Essentially what I am getting at is that probably the hardest thing Arenanet can figure out is how many players who aren’t raiding are genuinely interested in the story, compared to those wanting an easy-mode to have a better track at getting rewards. It’s not hard for the devs to figure out how many are raiding, but they need to value their time with such a development.
The worst case would be that they create this story-mode that serves a purpose of delivering Story to the more general audience, and there’s maybe a thread or two from players who really liked the story instance and saw it as a positive…while the following shows up on this sub-forum and maybe General Discussion for weeks:
- “Story-Mode is still too hard!”
- “WTF Story Mode doesn’t give real loot?”
- “Now that you gave us story mode, give us Legendary Armor!”
- “Another broken promise, Raids no longer the most difficult content.”
Just as a flow, Devs get backlash not just from players who expected to be rewarded something akin to what the current raids reward, but current raiders who feel like the identity of raids is scarred permanently.
Does that make sense?
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
And we’ve come back full circle.
Essentially what I am getting at is that probably the hardest thing Arenanet can figure out is how many players who aren’t raiding are genuinely interested in the story, compared to those wanting an easy-mode to have a better track at getting rewards. It’s not hard for the devs to figure out how many are raiding, but they need to value their time with such a development.
The worst case would be that they create this story-mode that serves a purpose of delivering Story to the more general audience, and there’s maybe a thread or two from players who really liked the story instance and saw it as a positive…while the following shows up on this sub-forum and maybe General Discussion for weeks:
- “Story-Mode is still too hard!”
- “WTF Story Mode doesn’t give real loot?”
- “Now that you gave us story mode, give us Legendary Armor!”
- “Another broken promise, Raids no longer the most difficult content.”Just as a flow, Devs get backlash not just from players who expected to be rewarded something akin to what the current raids reward, but current raiders who feel like the identity of raids is scarred permanently.
Does that make sense?
I agree. A lot of players already pointed it out. Creating an easy mode will not solve a problem, will damage the content that is in a really good place, and open a can of worms with a lot of new problems, as when its easy enough? There a lot of players that cant even complete Hearts and Minds solo or T3 Fractals.
There will be topics like :
“Why casuals get scraps of rewards and hardcore players get full rewards? Isnt the challenge enought for them?”
“Can we get shard of LI rewards from story mode that you mystic forge to full LI?”
“Where is the epic raid story i was told about? Its boring”
“GW2 is just a raid centric game now, stop raids!”
And we’ve come back full circle.
Essentially what I am getting at is that probably the hardest thing Arenanet can figure out is how many players who aren’t raiding are genuinely interested in the story, compared to those wanting an easy-mode to have a better track at getting rewards. It’s not hard for the devs to figure out how many are raiding, but they need to value their time with such a development.
The worst case would be that they create this story-mode that serves a purpose of delivering Story to the more general audience, and there’s maybe a thread or two from players who really liked the story instance and saw it as a positive…while the following shows up on this sub-forum and maybe General Discussion for weeks:
- “Story-Mode is still too hard!”
- “WTF Story Mode doesn’t give real loot?”
- “Now that you gave us story mode, give us Legendary Armor!”
- “Another broken promise, Raids no longer the most difficult content.”Just as a flow, Devs get backlash not just from players who expected to be rewarded something akin to what the current raids reward, but current raiders who feel like the identity of raids is scarred permanently.
Does that make sense?
Based on:
- reactions to any PvE content that is more challenging than Jungle Worm (not evolved)
- story mode dungeons
- virtually every reward the game has thrown at players
- and the reaction to explorable dungeon paths over time,
this makes perfect sense.
Not to denigrate the players who want a story mode, but raids are, and always have been in every MMO going, about loot. I believe an ANet dev said recently that they were looking at ways to offer the lore in raids to players who don’t/can’t raid in some other fashion. I’d say, let’s see what they do before demanding a story mode, unless of course the real reason is the prize, not the packaging.
I believe an ANet dev said recently that they were looking at ways to offer the lore in raids to players who don’t/can’t raid in some other fashion. I’d say, let’s see what they do before demanding a story mode, unless of course the real reason is the prize, not the packaging.
Yes that’s true.
Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first#post6416831
They should make it a sticky or something so threads discussing an easy mode can stop and wait for the actual release announcement.
I believe an ANet dev said recently that they were looking at ways to offer the lore in raids to players who don’t/can’t raid in some other fashion. I’d say, let’s see what they do before demanding a story mode, unless of course the real reason is the prize, not the packaging.
Yes that’s true.
Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first#post6416831They should make it a sticky or something so threads discussing an easy mode can stop and wait for the actual release announcement.
They are “exploring potential solutions,” one of which is most likely a story mode of some kind (would be a disservice if they weren’t at least considering it at this point – after the interest shown here, on reddit, fansites and in media like massivelyop).
There is nothing wrong with continuing the discussion so that – among others – the developers can see the continued community interest and pros and cons of this direction.
If they come up with a better solution – one that offers the story experience (and not just a secondhand retelling through video, cleared instances, etc) – then we will obviously take that into account as part of this ongoing discussion.
There is nothing wrong with continuing the discussion so that – among others – the developers can see the continued community interest and pros and cons of this direction.
That’s provided there is actually a constructive topic, as in a very specific suggestion on how a mode look like would work. For example, in the OP you can find the suggestion of a spectator mode, yet the thread didn’t discuss it much. On the other hand, the thread that had the developer response had quite a few rather detailed ideas on an “easy mode”.
@everyone: it’s time to move past the “Should there be an easy mode?” question. The better question is “How should an easy mode be implemented so everyone is happy with it.”
These are all valid points against an easy mode, so an easy mode that will be added by the devs needs to address all of them:
- “Story-Mode is still too hard!”
- “WTF Story Mode doesn’t give real loot?”
- “Now that you gave us story mode, give us Legendary Armor!”
- “Another broken promise, Raids no longer the most difficult content.”
1) If the story mode is still too hard we’ll be back to square one.
2) If the story mode doesn’t offer any real loot we’ll go back to Arah story mode
Just out of curiosity, if arenanet does make a story mode, where would the story be?
tldr: As far as I have been able to tell, stories from raid wings aren’t in the boss fights, they are in intractable objects scattered throughout the instance, and in re-playable cut scenes at the end of each encounter. The story behind all bosses, as far as I’ve been able to tell, is: “oh look a boss, let’s kill it to save people”. So where and how and where will they put the story in an easy/story mode raid?
long winded rant(feel free to skip):
People who want the easy mode raids for the story will most likely be disappointed, because the boss fights will offer no story. I only learned what the Vale Guardian was when I read the notes scattered around the area. The story behind Gorseval wasn’t revealed in the Gorseval fight, it was revealed in the event leading up to them. As for Sabetha, I still have no idea who she and her band of merry bandits are, other than a boss we needed to kill. Wing 2 offered nothing better, with the story behind boss fights there being “oh look a boss, let’s kill it to save people”, Escort and Keep construct falling under the same category. The story in the Cairn, Overseer and Sam fights were given through a mix of Scholar Glenna and intractable objects before and after the fight but not during the fight. The only fights that I know of that offer hints to a story during the fight are Xera, where she constantly taunts us that Lazarus is coming back, and Saul, where he monologues about his backstory while we’re too busy fighting a boss, therefore missing out on what he’s saying and being more annoyed at the fact that he’s detracting us from the boss fight with his monologueing.
If they do add a story to the boss fight to the story mode raid, how will they go about adding it and where will they put it? How will they tell us the story of why this giant magic anomaly is blocking our way, and what is it? Will they use the normal mode’s way and put the information in scattered journals, or will they add a story in the boss fight? If they add it to the boss fight, how will they convey it to us during the fight since Vale Guardian is a silent boss? How will they they tell us the story of who Gorseval are and how they came to be? Will the event leading up to them tell it to us like normal mode? If it’s in that event, then what will be the point of the Gorseval fight for people who just want the story? Will they make Gorseval more chatty? If so what will happen to the spirit run event? If they decide to put the story in the boss fights in story/easy mode, then that will ironically make the story harder to access than normal mode. Having to fight the boss rather than just reading about them in journals scattered around the area. More importantly, how much time and resources do they have to put in to figure these things out and implement them? How will this affect the release schedules of future expansions and living world stories? Will it be worth the time and effort to do so?
Designing story mode can be easy:
-blue ball, activate it at the front of the wing, affects the entire wing
-no rewards (except the lore)
-no progress on achievements
-boss and ads have 1/20 normal health
-boss and ads have 1/20 normal damage
-one shot mechanics like flamewall still one shot
-breakbars need 1/20 normal cc
-still uses a squad, so u can bring 10 people if u want, or u could easily low man it with friends.
And we’ve come back full circle.
Essentially what I am getting at is that probably the hardest thing Arenanet can figure out is how many players who aren’t raiding are genuinely interested in the story, compared to those wanting an easy-mode to have a better track at getting rewards. It’s not hard for the devs to figure out how many are raiding, but they need to value their time with such a development.
The worst case would be that they create this story-mode that serves a purpose of delivering Story to the more general audience, and there’s maybe a thread or two from players who really liked the story instance and saw it as a positive…while the following shows up on this sub-forum and maybe General Discussion for weeks:
- “Story-Mode is still too hard!”
- “WTF Story Mode doesn’t give real loot?”
- “Now that you gave us story mode, give us Legendary Armor!”
- “Another broken promise, Raids no longer the most difficult content.”Just as a flow, Devs get backlash not just from players who expected to be rewarded something akin to what the current raids reward, but current raiders who feel like the identity of raids is scarred permanently.
Does that make sense?
I agree. A lot of players already pointed it out. Creating an easy mode will not solve a problem, will damage the content that is in a really good place, and open a can of worms with a lot of new problems, as when its easy enough? There a lot of players that cant even complete Hearts and Minds solo or T3 Fractals.
There will be topics like :
“Why casuals get scraps of rewards and hardcore players get full rewards? Isnt the challenge enought for them?”
“Can we get shard of LI rewards from story mode that you mystic forge to full LI?”
“Where is the epic raid story i was told about? Its boring”
“GW2 is just a raid centric game now, stop raids!”
You cant really stop ppl from complaining, it’s the easiest thing for them to do sadly. I stand by what i suggested in a diff thread to have an option to open a clreared instance on your own.
And we’ve come back full circle.
Essentially what I am getting at is that probably the hardest thing Arenanet can figure out is how many players who aren’t raiding are genuinely interested in the story, compared to those wanting an easy-mode to have a better track at getting rewards. It’s not hard for the devs to figure out how many are raiding, but they need to value their time with such a development.
The worst case would be that they create this story-mode that serves a purpose of delivering Story to the more general audience, and there’s maybe a thread or two from players who really liked the story instance and saw it as a positive…while the following shows up on this sub-forum and maybe General Discussion for weeks:
- “Story-Mode is still too hard!”
- “WTF Story Mode doesn’t give real loot?”
- “Now that you gave us story mode, give us Legendary Armor!”
- “Another broken promise, Raids no longer the most difficult content.”Just as a flow, Devs get backlash not just from players who expected to be rewarded something akin to what the current raids reward, but current raiders who feel like the identity of raids is scarred permanently.
Does that make sense?
I agree. A lot of players already pointed it out. Creating an easy mode will not solve a problem, will damage the content that is in a really good place, and open a can of worms with a lot of new problems, as when its easy enough? There a lot of players that cant even complete Hearts and Minds solo or T3 Fractals.
There will be topics like :
“Why casuals get scraps of rewards and hardcore players get full rewards? Isnt the challenge enought for them?”
“Can we get shard of LI rewards from story mode that you mystic forge to full LI?”
“Where is the epic raid story i was told about? Its boring”
“GW2 is just a raid centric game now, stop raids!”
Youre making assumptions and arguing against based on what people might ask for next. That isnt really a logical argument against anything as it is simply assuming the worst of people.
None of these things preclude the desire for this change – and, if it came to it, I would be the first in line to argue against LI rewards (or anything else substantially close to what the top difficulty offers) in a story mode version of the raid.
Almost no one is asking for that. I know it would be much easier to argue against easy modes if they were, but it just isnt the case.
You cant really stop ppl from complaining, it’s the easiest thing for them to do sadly. I stand by what i suggested in a diff thread to have an option to open a clreared instance on your own.
Not really, if it was the easiest thing to do, you’d see a more people complaining. It is a lot less effort to simply stop playing, but people complaining at least care about the game enough to complain. Believe it or not, only a small minority do.