Guild Wars 2

I don’t know if I’m the only one that feels it, but the raid meta composition™ hasn’t changed in a too long time that it’s become stagnant and I consider that it’s time to talk about it.

DPS role: those builds who perform best against a static golem in terms of pure DPS. I’d love to call BS here, if raid bosses had mechanics that favoured some builds or others, or couldn’t been kept so static. But actually, most of them are just a game of viper vs zerker and don’t favour some builds inside one of those groups enough to really care: basically, you can take a condi ranger wherever some viper build is good, but I don’t feel it’s quite fair. The only exceptions seem to be Cairn and Matthias, where torment (and confusion?) works wonders.

The trend has been to buff viper builds against zerker builds and, even though I understand that gameplay-wise it adds replayability to LS3 maps, I don’t share this idea. Some of those builds are highly overturned. Yes, I’m looking at you tempest, daredevil and ranger. Condi tempest and condi daredevil are braindead for the damage they make, and condi ranger’s rotation is much easier to pull off than engineer’s that the difference in dps doesn’t even matter.

DPS build’s benchmarks are still too far away from each other to choose a build for the utility it brings, that would be perfect balance. Finding a pug group with one of the lower dps options, even if viable, is hard since the difference is big enough for some people to care. For example, pugging as a condi revenant or as a DH must be freaking difficult right now.

Support roles: Nothing has changed since revenant faded away from the meta. Tempest, originally a support specialisation (or at least imo), has been neglected; and Ventari’s changes haven’t created a spot for revenants as raid healers. No other build has been created or buffed to provide might or quickness at warrior or mesmer levels. And that’s because the support roles we currently have are quite difficult to beat:

• Druid’s Grace of the Land is enough to even not consider other options in most cases. But not only do they have that buff, they have Sun Spirit, Frost Spirit, Glyph of Empowerment, Spotter… Revenant found a role as hands kiter in Deimos (stable until a better option is found since 0 dps) and Tempest is a less desired hands kiter or a healer for Matthias. Both classes can kite Cairn just fine, but a druid is usually preferred.

• Though I’ve heard many times that chronomancer’s alacrity contribution to the group in terms of dps can be calculated and, therefore, a build that provides quickness in levels similar to mesmer but with more personal dps could be an alternative, no one’s gonna refute that alacrity brings fluency to rotations, and some builds like engineer or ranger won’t trade it so easily. And no one’s gonna beat them at taking given the amount of distorts, blocks and F5.

• EDIT. Seems like PS have found a challenger in condi tempest with scepter. Probably people won’t agree, but if I had to give an efficient might generator build to some class, it wouldn’t be the one with more viable options according to qT when some are struggling to have even one.

So, here I am asking whoever reads this:

1. Don’t you think that condi thief and condi tempest (specially the first) do too much dps? I don’t have issues with eles and thieves having slightly better dps because of squishy, but this is too much imo.
2. Would you balance so that builds based on difficult mechanics (not only taking into account difficult rotations) had better dps than a build that only uses skills after cooldown?
3. Would you balance the game favouring power dps in terms of maximum possible dps but being more difficult to achieve and keeping viper as an easier and more stable option? As far as I’ve been told, condi dps is easier to maintain than power.
4. How can the support trinity druid, chrono, warrior be changed into something more flexible? Wouldn’t giving class specific buffs (even with other name) to other classes feel they are the same thing e.g. GoL to revenants? Don’t you feel some classes have too many buffs?
5. Would you create another roles that needed different gear/utilities/traits? They’d probably fall under support roles, but different from healer/quickness/might.

EDIT: please, don’t come at me with “you can clear raids with any composition that has a minimum of sense”. I’m already doing that.

My goal is to talk about builds in the range of optimal to “better than viable” and to discuss what to change in viable builds to make them at least "better than viable. If you want a graphic example about this:

• optimal condi dps -> condi thief.
• better than viable condi dps -> ranger or engineer.
• viable condi dps build -> condi revenant.

I’ve also reformulated some of the questions for better understanding.

You might want to reconsider whether a game should be balanced by comparing the optimum damage benchmarks.

You might also consider whether the support triad you mention (druid, chrono, warrior) would be meaningful different after a major rebalance — people will always find the best way to achieve quicker kills and that will almost always involve oversimplifying the complexities of the game to achieve something that can be explained and executed by lots of people.

The fact is that there are already all sorts of ways to master each encounter; we just tend to gravitate towards a few because humans like things simple.

1: Yes. It is perfectly fine that some builds have an easier execution than others, regardless of how effective they are. ( I play hammer guard in raids more often than not and its rotation is mostly AA. )
2: I would try to balance power and condi to be about the same. Dealing damage in GW2 isn’t mechanically hard on any build. If anything, I would change % of health taken as damage attacks to be affected by toughness instead.
3: From my raiding experience, only the War is in every group but those three are meta for good reason. Other classes can heal but Druid gives spirits, perma fury (Tiger), and GotL. Chrono has low personal DPS but quickness+alacrity gives them a place in the team. War is good dps and easy might gen.
Having other directly comparable options would be nice but there are only a limited number of boons to upkeep. How do you add or nerf things without making the classes generic?
4: I think new specialized roles would have to be determined by the raid encounters. Like attacks that can be blocked but not evaded or a boss that only takes damage from crits. Otherwise it’s up to boons. And if you have healer/Chrono/might available; do you really need aegis or perma fury or protection?

It is a pickle.

1 – I don’t really care. Before the Meteor Shower nerfs I could get really absurd damage compared to other builds when playing Tempest even while committing some significant mistakes in my rotation just because of how OP the skills was. I don’t really expect the classes to be really balanced and I don’t really care about the benchmark values as long as people are playing their stuff properly the damage is more than enough to clear every PvE content with plenty of leeway.

2 – Execution difficulty is a non-factor in balance philosophy in my opinion. I still play power Tempest because it’s fun and nailing the rotation feels good.

3 – In a party that will mainly create fire fields, a Tempest can keep 25 Might on his group while dealing respectable dps, if there is another scepter Tempest in the sub-squad it becomes even easier.

In the case of the healers it’s a trade-off already, the Tempest can heal from range and constantly heal more over time compared to Druid burst healing, people take Druid for the buffs because good parties shouldn’t be needing constant healiing from range and the damage boost is great, if an encounter is designed in a way that players are forced to spread and ranged healing is needed suddenly the Elementalist and the Revenant become more relevant like both became the go-to kiter on Deimos.

I legit don’t know what to do with the Chrono without making something even more broken…

4 – Yes, the encounters should promote more strategical variety that could highlight some niche builds, I’m not a fan of forced re-gearing, but forcing at least major traitline and gameplay style changes would be interesting.

1. Braindead builds imho shouldn’t be the no. 1 build, but I see no reason for easy builds not to be competitive. Being ~10% weaker than keyboard piano builds under golem conditions would probably be reasonable. However …

2. I strongly dislike the focus on golem performance. It’s probably the only comparable thing we have right now, but it’s way too artificial. People can already upload logs from raids online, so I’d love to see a website like wildstarlogs or warcraftlogs come up in order to pool and analyse the log data. I’m pretty sure there would be quite some surprises if you compared a reasonable percentile (something like 80th) to the golem benchmarks.

3. I’d probably prefer if there were (at least) two classes that can bring each unique buff. As an example, thieves could get utility skills that replicate warrior banner effects and are mutually exclusive with banners. Empower Allies wouldn’t need to go to the same class but could go to guardian, for example.
As a band-aid solution to the current imbalance, extending the buff cap in raids to 10 targets for anything would probably also work, bit I prefer the more flexible solution that doesn’t nail you to one certain class for a specific buff. The only thing I’d actually like to be scaled back is the amount of active defense chronos have. That’s just ridiculously broken.

4. Offering some more niches, maybe by raid design, is probably not a bad idea. However, I’d be reluctant to force those niches if they’d require expensive stuff like new gear just for one or two encounters.

Some clarifications I’d like to make:

• As stated in the OP, I’m the first one against benchmarks against a golem. In my opinion, boss designs should favour some specific builds against others, not in terms of dps but in utility. But for this to be true, dps builds need to have similar dps.

• When I complain about condi tempest and condi daredevil, I’m not saying they shouldn’t be viable/optimal. But think of virtues guardian. They need to evade as much damage as possible to keep aegis up. And right now the dps is mediocre. Those builds are clearly over-tuned, even compared to condi ranger.

• Balance teams seems eager to change numbers in skills in each patch, so the dps builds issue isn’t so problematic. But support roles have a problem. We’ve had 3 balance patches up to today (12/13, 2/22, 5/16) since the change to signet of inspiration. The meta hasn’t changed at all since then. They raised the cap of some buffs, but they haven’t nerfed the support trinity’s unique buffs nor have they given anything worthy to their current non-meta support specs so that they could compete for a spot. Are they really gonna abandon tempest (as the original support build it was) and herald and hope next support specs are better received?

Or instead of knocking your head against the wall, play average builds, invite other professions apart from the “meta” and have fun?!
Raids are not hard

I already do that. Pug mentality being wrong doesn’t change the fact that they should balance better. Why would anyone complain of a better balance?

The raid meta is the optimal choice. Just because it’s the optimal choice doesn’t mean it’s the only choice. You can have a replacement for most of the classes, it just means it may take longer or make it harder and who wants that. Recently, I have done no updrafts gors with 2 necros on the team, without a problem. I have had full might stack in a subgroup with a rev and tempest blasting those fire fields, we just needed a warrior to carry both banners. I even was in a group where they replaced the druids with a rev and tempest doing the healing. Unfortunately chronos are way too valuable to not have 2 of them, but im ok with that. You can play a more varied team comp now, as long as it makes sense and succeed.

Magnus Godrik.5841:

I have done no updrafts gors with 2 necros on the team, without a problem.

i did entire w4 CM with 2 necros (myself included) on team so thats hardly an accomplishment. golem dps difference doesn’t matter unless you’re going for record. skill matters and then you’re gonna have very close kill times as long as all buffs are in place

Are people really complaining about a class that brings absolutley nothing to the table besides dps that does slightly better Dps while almost every other class brings support/Utility and class specific buffs to the raid increasing the overall performance of the raid while doing only slightly less dps?

Wow that’s funny. And let’s not forget the fact that quite a few bosses it is actually pretty bad to bring a Condi Thief even into the raid while there are the complete staple classes needed in every single boss fight………

A small counterpoint:
An optimal condi ele build is no less braindead than any FA build or power staff build that has dominated the dps rankings for the past year for elementalists.

As an elementalist main, I actually think that condi ele is harder than both. The reason I think that is because in FA or staff you have room for defensive utilities and are able to stay at range to keep you safer and give you more room for error. The new condi build leaves absolutely no space for error as you have no room for any defensive utilities or talents and are required to be up close and personal at all times.

The rotation itself may not be very difficult, but it’s not less complicated than most of the other builds, and actually has a high degree of risk associated with it since ele’s were already the squishiest class in the game.

1: I think both of those builds are actually in a pretty good place. Both classes already suffer from extreme squishiness, ele’s especially as they have a harder time disengaging than a thief does in the first place and as I outlined above have absolutely no room for anything defensive or mobility-related on their bars. High risk should absolutely generate high rewards. Personally, I think ANET should use those two builds are dps benchmarks to begin tweaking other classes up to rather than tweaking them down any further, but if people are willing to play glass cannons like that they shouldn’t be punished more.

2: I would not balance the game to favor power over condi at all. At best condi should be SLIGHTLY better than power, at worst they should be equal. Power is and should be for more easily sustained direct dps, and as such is capable of jumping right in at max power/bursting. Condi requires a bit of a ramp-up and more difficult maintenance, hence they should be rewarded for maintaining that. Don’t make the mistake of believing that proper balance means everything should be equal based on just dps, you also can’t forget the greater context of the class and the sacrifices each has to make to be effective at a role.

3: The support trinity of druid/chrono/warrior does not need to be changed, other classes need to have options that make it so they can be safely interchanged without sacrificing the integrity of the supports that are effectively necessary. That doesn’t come from nerfing the original 3, it comes from giving other classes access to the same boons/same amount of boons.

Example: ventari revenant can now provide alacrity, which is a step in the right direction towards allowing for more party flexibility, but it cannot yet provide enough to put it on par with the chrono. In order to open the gates for the flexibility you want, ventari rev should have more alacrity generating capabilities to make it a viable option.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I believe much of this will come with the next round of elite specializations. The current issue is that the existence of only one elite spec for each class pigeon-holes everyone, but once more options are available that will open it up for ANET to truly specialize them. Example: Reaper was supposed to be slow-but-heavy dps with some tanking options, but people ended up using it as a condi booster instead. Once the next necro elite spec comes out (which is rumored to be heavily-condi based) reaper will now be available for ANET to move towards what it was originally supposed to be.

4: Currently roles are dps/tank/support. Support falls into two categories, boon support and heals support. The decentralized nature of boons and healing in GW2 lends itself to a unique experience where there is room to create multi-purpose builds. I would not create new roles, but instead expand the abilities of classes to provide those multi-purpose roles that have been very successful.

Example: Chronomancers are hugely popular because they provide alacrity/quickness boon support as well as being the ultimate tank, PSWarriors provide dps and heavy boon support. Instead of breaking up those duties (which would result in effectively a copy of every other MMO that uses the holy trinity), expand the abilities of classes to provide something similar. Ventari revenants are a good first attempt, being able to provide heals and boon support, but should really be improved in order to compete.

There are already plenty of builds like this in the game, but heavily underutilized because they simply aren’t as effective as the chrono/druid/pswarr trio. Simply buff those other builds and then you will have many more options open up. Examples: boonshare eles already exist using warhorn, simply buff might generation and they will be on par with PSwarrs. Buff Ventari Rev alacrity buffs and streamline their healing and they will be a viable option instead of druids. Give quickness generation to a currently unused class, like engineers or guards, and suddenly you have a potential tanking alternative to the chronotank

UnbentMars.9126:

IMPORTANT NOTE: I believe much of this will come with the next round of elite specializations. The current issue is that the existence of only one elite spec for each class pigeon-holes everyone, but once more options are available that will open it up for ANET to truly specialize them.

I also hope they’ll do this, but somehow I wouldn’t be that surprised if they kittened up this great opportunity.

UnbentMars.9126:

A small counterpoint:
An optimal condi ele build is no less braindead than any FA build or power staff build that has dominated the dps rankings for the past year for elementalists.

As an elementalist main, I actually think that condi ele is harder than both. The reason I think that is because in FA or staff you have room for defensive utilities and are able to stay at range to keep you safer and give you more room for error. The new condi build leaves absolutely no space for error as you have no room for any defensive utilities or talents and are required to be up close and personal at all times.

The rotation itself may not be very difficult, but it’s not less complicated than most of the other builds, and actually has a high degree of risk associated with it since ele’s were already the squishiest class in the game.

As another ele main, I disagree. FA or staff builds are a LOT harder. Staying alive is really a non-issue. If anything, it’s only ever an issue with staff, because of Meteor Shower rooting you in place. Staying up close is a non-issue. You always need to be there or lose a major part of your healing, boons and subsequently dps. On top of that the condi “rotation” requires much less attention, therefore letting you focus more on what happens around you, meaning it’s easier to stay alive. On top of that, it is more forgiving, you lose less dps from mistakes and there are fewer mistakes to make.

UnbentMars.9126:

3: The support trinity of druid/chrono/warrior does not need to be changed, other classes need to have options that make it so they can be safely interchanged without sacrificing the integrity of the supports that are effectively necessary. That doesn’t come from nerfing the original 3, it comes from giving other classes access to the same boons/same amount of boons.

Example: ventari revenant can now provide alacrity, which is a step in the right direction towards allowing for more party flexibility, but it cannot yet provide enough to put it on par with the chrono. In order to open the gates for the flexibility you want, ventari rev should have more alacrity generating capabilities to make it a viable option.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I believe much of this will come with the next round of elite specializations. The current issue is that the existence of only one elite spec for each class pigeon-holes everyone, but once more options are available that will open it up for ANET to truly specialize them. Example: Reaper was supposed to be slow-but-heavy dps with some tanking options, but people ended up using it as a condi booster instead. Once the next necro elite spec comes out (which is rumored to be heavily-condi based) reaper will now be available for ANET to move towards what it was originally supposed to be.

THIS nails it….period. Hopefully ANET takes note. That and the dps metermentality goes away raids be right.

“dps metermentality” isn’t something introduced by the existence of dps meters. It’s just the way players are. It’s not going to go away.

As for having viable options, I fully agree. So far we’ve seen an alternative to one PS, which is a nice start. Ventari rev can’t really compete with chrono, not just because of the alacrity but also the quickness. Nobody stacks this stuff as good as chronos, and it’s incredibly important. Giving some other profession a reliable source of quickness for the party will help greatly there. Druid is the next offender, which only needs its group buffs upped to 10 people. Obviously with all this we will likely still need 1 PS, 1 chrono and 1 druid. But it will help a lot with comp diversity.

Feanor.2358:

UnbentMars.9126:

A small counterpoint:
An optimal condi ele build is no less braindead than any FA build or power staff build that has dominated the dps rankings for the past year for elementalists.

As an elementalist main, I actually think that condi ele is harder than both. The reason I think that is because in FA or staff you have room for defensive utilities and are able to stay at range to keep you safer and give you more room for error. The new condi build leaves absolutely no space for error as you have no room for any defensive utilities or talents and are required to be up close and personal at all times.

The rotation itself may not be very difficult, but it’s not less complicated than most of the other builds, and actually has a high degree of risk associated with it since ele’s were already the squishiest class in the game.

As another ele main, I disagree. FA or staff builds are a LOT harder. Staying alive is really a non-issue. If anything, it’s only ever an issue with staff, because of Meteor Shower rooting you in place. Staying up close is a non-issue. You always need to be there or lose a major part of your healing, boons and subsequently dps. On top of that the condi “rotation” requires much less attention, therefore letting you focus more on what happens around you, meaning it’s easier to stay alive. On top of that, it is more forgiving, you lose less dps from mistakes and there are fewer mistakes to make.

Maybe it’s down to individual playstyle, but I have never had an issue with vulnerability in an FA or staff build because I can safely distance myself. Any issues I have with the Meteor Shower root I’ve always dealt with by simply teleporting while casting. I have a much harder time with the new condi build because consistent dodging in melee is a challenge in the group melee of fractals and some raid bosses unless you have flawless vigor generation.

I can agree with the issue of mistakes being easier to correct, but only in the case of minor mistakes. a major mistake in condi means you are dead whereas in staff I typically have arcane shield on my bar or some other oh-kitten button that there simply isn’t room for in condi

UnbentMars.9126:

Maybe it’s down to individual playstyle, but I have never had an issue with vulnerability in an FA or staff build because I can safely distance myself. Any issues I have with the Meteor Shower root I’ve always dealt with by simply teleporting while casting. I have a much harder time with the new condi build because consistent dodging in melee is a challenge in the group melee of fractals and some raid bosses unless you have flawless vigor generation.

I can agree with the issue of mistakes being easier to correct, but only in the case of minor mistakes. a major mistake in condi means you are dead whereas in staff I typically have arcane shield on my bar or some other oh-kitten button that there simply isn’t room for in condi

I get the impression you’re comparing a very suboptimal power playstyle with the optimal condi. Optimal power doesn’t have space for Arcane Shield or Lightning Flash either. It’s too much of a dps loss. And while we’re on it, distancing yourself is one, too. You step outside of wells, you get less buffs, less healing, less GotL, less everything. And you still need to close in for the overloads.

So if you want to be efficient, you simply need to stick in melee range. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve done all of the above except taking Arcane Shield. I simply forced myself in close range and learned to play there, partly because of team tactics and partly for it being a more rewarding playstyle.

Now, if you compare the “optimal” ways to play both, there’s no real difference in regards to survivability. You’re full glass in either case. There is difference in performance, however. Condi loses a lot less from imperfect rotations.

First of all, thanks for the answers. Nice to see other people views. I’ve edited OP, so go and check.

Sly.9518:

Are people really complaining about a class that brings absolutley nothing to the table besides dps that does slightly better Dps while almost every other class brings support/Utility and class specific buffs to the raid increasing the overall performance of the raid while doing only slightly less dps?

As far as I know, and please correct me if I’m wrong, the only pure dps class that buffs party dps is engineer. Condi revenant has a ferocity buff, but we tend to keep condi classes together, so we don’t take full advantage of it. Ranger usually doesn’t take neither spirits nor spotter. Tempests, thieves, guardians or necros don’t provide any party buff that increases dps.

What some classes have is some utility, mostly in terms of CC. But some of that utility comes as a dps loss, e.g. tempest takes rebound in stead of fiery great-sword. But condi thief actually has utility: its cc is spectacular and easy to use. And it is the best choice to make compared to other elite skills.

UnbentMars.9126:

*ventari revenant can now provide alacrity, which is a step in the right direction towards allowing for more party flexibility, but it cannot yet provide enough to put it on par with the chrono. In order to open the gates for the flexibility you want, ventari rev should have more alacrity generating capabilities to make it a viable option.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I believe much of this will come with the next round of elite specializations. The current issue is that the existence of only one elite spec for each class pigeon-holes everyone, but once more options are available that will open it up for ANET to truly specialize them. Example: Reaper was supposed to be slow-but-heavy dps with some tanking options, but people ended up using it as a condi booster instead. Once the next necro elite spec comes out (which is rumored to be heavily-condi based) reaper will now be available for ANET to move towards what it was originally supposed to be.

Ventari won’t ever compete with chronomancers as things stand now. They are supposed to compete with druids. Thats why alacrity wasn’t a buff to revenant healers in pve. Everyone seems to agree in giving other healers the same buffs druid has. How would you do so? Would you give them all the buffs or only some? Don’t you think that all the healers giving pretty much the same buffs would make the classes feel identical? Wouldn’t giving ventari flat damage buffs be against the philosophy of the legend?

And, according to what I’ve read about the leaks, there won’t be any new healer specs. What makes druid still incomparable to potential healers we already have. Tempest can probably come back to being an auramancer (original design imo) with the expansion if the new spec is mostly dps centered; but this won’t happen with herald, a support oriented build that isn’t being used in the build the next spec is likely to have (condi dps).

Feanor.2358:

As another ele main, I disagree. FA or staff builds are a LOT harder. Staying alive is really a non-issue. If anything, it’s only ever an issue with staff, because of Meteor Shower rooting you in place. Staying up close is a non-issue. You always need to be there or lose a major part of your healing, boons and subsequently dps. On top of that the condi “rotation” requires much less attention, therefore letting you focus more on what happens around you, meaning it’s easier to stay alive. On top of that, it is more forgiving, you lose less dps from mistakes and there are fewer mistakes to make.

Completely on point, imo. Condi dps seems easier to keep than power.

Akeno.4962:

First of all, thanks for the answers. Nice to see other people views. I’ve edited OP, so go and check.

Sly.9518:

Are people really complaining about a class that brings absolutley nothing to the table besides dps that does slightly better Dps while almost every other class brings support/Utility and class specific buffs to the raid increasing the overall performance of the raid while doing only slightly less dps?

As far as I know, and please correct me if I’m wrong, the only pure dps class that buffs party dps is engineer. Condi revenant has a ferocity buff, but we tend to keep condi classes together, so we don’t take full advantage of it. Ranger usually doesn’t take neither spirits nor spotter. Tempests, thieves, guardians or necros don’t provide any party buff that increases dps.

What some classes have is some utility, mostly in terms of CC. But some of that utility comes as a dps loss, e.g. tempest takes rebound in stead of fiery great-sword. But condi thief actually has utility: its cc is spectacular and easy to use. And it is the best choice to make compared to other elite skills.

Uhm what? So Ps Wars are split between both parties normally? so Condi Druid doesn’t take spotter or spirits? Tempests and Guards don’t provide any buffs at all especially from combo just for taking them and them doing their Rotation right? All Tempests don’t increase the Boon duration of all Boons on Allie around them right? It’s like you don’t even know what the classes are capable of.

and to try to make out the only hard cc Condi thief has available that is on a 40 second cd(at best 23 sec cd if you have alacrity every single second it’s on Cd, which isn’t realistic in the majority cases) that isn’t always going to be up for every breakbar so op lol the only Utility thief brings to the raid……

And again the Thief doesn’t do all that much more dps than any of the other Dps classes that bring more Utility/buffs to the party.

Sly.9518:

Uhm what? So Ps Wars are split between both parties normally? so Condi Druid doesn’t take spotter or spirits? Tempests and Guards don’t provide any buffs at all especially from combo just for taking them and them doing their Rotation right? All Tempests don’t increase the Boon duration of all Boons on Allie around them right? It’s like you don’t even know what the classes are capable of.

and to try to make out the only hard cc Condi thief has available that is on a 40 second cd(at best 23 sec cd if you have alacrity every single second it’s on Cd, which isn’t realistic in the majority cases) that isn’t always going to be up for every breakbar so op lol the only Utility thief brings to the raid……

And again the Thief doesn’t do all that much more dps than any of the other Dps classes that bring more Utility/buffs to the party.

In my book, PS is a support build with an overtuned dps = high personal dps + EA + banners + might. So that’s why it’s a horse of a different color, imo. Want to rage against them? I’ll join you.

Condi druid can’t be considered a dps class, it doesn’t even have a benchmark. It’s just a druid with somewhat better dps that focuses only in the support part and not in the healing part. I’d rather have two magi’s druids to keep the party than the little personal dps increase.

I’ve looked at the trait you comment. Imbued melodies’ sand squall only increases 2 seconds the duration of your current boons every 30 seconds. I’d say its negligible when you have designated people with a lot of boon duration whose only purpose is to keep them up. I know I don’t even consider it to keep quickness while playing chrono.

If you told me all those high dps builds had utility skills as useful as mesmer’s, I’d agree with you, but all they have is some cc. Apart from engineer (arguably the most difficult build to reach good dps) they don’t have meaningful party buffs. Condi revenant is in the limit of “better than viable” and some groups don’t take it even in bosses where it should be good.

Thief’s best group utility right now is on a fairly low CD compared to other great CC skills like gravity well or moa. You can argue that you can use those two times in one CD, but you need to have continuum split available to do that. Maybe if they designed raid bosses where group stealth were useful, thief as we know it now could have more utility. But i’d expect mesmer, king of utility, to pick that role too.

Again, my problem with thief isn’t that it shouldn’t have the best dps because of squishy. My problem is that, disregarding engineer because most people won’t reach as good dps as the class can, its dps is 2k ahead of other options that don’t have any utility either. And that doesn’t include finishers in fields that should happen in raid scenarios, since thief doesn’t provide any field. And I’d say tempest is even squishier because they aren’t perma evading with death blossom, if you want the squishiest class to have the best dps.