Guild Wars 2

So, first thing’s first. I’ve played MMOs for over a decade now. I’ve played nearly every major title for a fair length of time, and a whole lot of minor, f2p ones thrown into the mix as well. I think I know my way around the genre for the most part.

Now, that said, I’m a support player at heart. I like DPSing and tanking fine, but I’ve always been a Healer. Even in shooters that allow Medic loadouts, I’m always geared up with stuff to keep people alive. When I heard that ANet thought the Trinity was “broken”, I was wary at best. As the game came out, well. My fears were with good reason.

Upon hitting 30, my 80 friend took my girlfriend and I into AC with his guild members. Never before in ANY MMO have I had a worse experience with a dungeon. Moving further into the game was only a slight improvement. Running into list format for easier check marks:

- First and foremost, the lack of the Trinity makes this an utter nightmare. There is no way to pull aggro, there is no way to really keep people alive, CC does little to nothing, the entire dungeon is nothing but a chaotic zergfest.

- Bosses are a nightmare. The jaded part of me wants to think ANet deliberately designed dungeons to be a gold sink with how much time you’re spending dying, repairing, and zerging right back in again from a waypoint. All of the above points make this impossible as well. With no way to keep aggro, no way to keep people alive beyond some extremely minor, long-CD healing, no CC, every fight is basically a rush to kill them before they can kill you.

- Loot is pathetic. You realize the point of dungeons is to get some sweet loot, right? The story mode and explorable modes are fine and all, but with nothing to look forward to but many, MANY runs to gradually build up enough tokens for a dungeon set of armor, well. The entire thing is a slog. I know ANet had this philosophy of all “But it’s not about the loot grind!”, but just like the lack of Trinity, you don’t fix things that aren’t broken. Besides, it’s not about the loot grind. It’s about the token grind. Congratulations, you really revolutionized that one. Hell, you grind MORE for the massive amount of tokens than you would to get the gear normally from the dungeons.

I remember the first time a boss dropped and I was just “…There’s no loot?” This blew my mind. I cannot honestly believe there’s no dungeon-quality loot, merely random chests that more often than not have nothing you can even use. Hope party members have things to trade!

- You’re designed to be killed. A lot. Never in any MMO have I died more in dungeons than this game. Nearly every single mechanic one-shots you (at least as a clothie) and is almost impossible to avoid. With Adelbern’s ground fire you have about half a second to get out of the circle before it suddenly pops up and you’re immediately killed. In CM the golem randomly aggroed me and one-shot me with missiles. A sniper one-shot me later. The list goes on. This is utterly ridiculous. Once again it’s just a tedious rush to kill them before they kill you. Er…before they kill you too many times to pay for repairs, anyway.

Long story short. These need redesigned and/or the Trinity needs brought back. This isn’t a MOBA where people are forced into a role they don’t like just because the “team” doesn’t have said role yet. If people are playing a tank or support, they like playing tank or support. These roles are always going to have less players because your average dudebro gamer wants to see big numbers and feel like a boss. That doesn’t mean the system itself is bad and people that DO like doing things beyond zerg rushing every mob in the game should be shut out entirely.

I really like a lot of the dungeon sets too, but between the mechanics and lack of a dungeon finder leading to standing around for half an hour trying to put a group together like pre-Wrath WoW, I don’t EVER see myself bothering to beat my head against a wall long enough to get any. And that’s a real shame.

Most things about this game are fantastic, but every possible thing that could go wrong with dungeon design, did.

GojinRyong.7594:

lrn2play or go back to WoW, I hear pandas drop tommorow so go back there

Cute, a fanboy. Very helpful. I haven’t played WoW in over a year but I’m sure that oh-so-unique “insult” took all of 5 seconds for you to think up.

AvalonBright is tottaly correct, dungeons in this game are the most “unfun” experience I had in years of MMO playing.
That being said, Im sure ANEt will adress this issue soon, in fact I know they are planning to give out more tokens per boss and making this tokens account bound, together with this all dungeons will have tweaks to them to make them more enjoyable.

Im sure ANet hears its players and nott he morons who tell people to go play WoW, because they know that if people go to play WoW, they won’t be playing GW2, and I’m pretty sure they want people to play GW2 =P

No, really now people in this genre scream and shout about not wanting clone #131344 and when they finally get one that actually tries to be different some of you do you best to try and change it into yet another clone. Then you scream about how its nothing but a clone and abandon the game. Honestly what the kitten is going on!

Scourge.4317:

No, really now people in this genre scream and shout about not wanting clone #131344 and when they finally get one that actually tries to be different some of you do you best to try and change it into yet another clone. Then you scream about how its nothing but a clone and abandon the game. Honestly what the kitten is going on!

You are totally mistaken there. I love GW2 and how it is different from other games, and I don’t want the trinity here. I didnt say that. What I want is a better and more fun dungeon system implemented. Even when you have lots of elitist crying about how perfect the dungeons are you have hundreds, of people saying it isnt.

You must see something is very wrong here because I never seen in any other game such a big debate about a dungeon system like in this game. This is obviously a proof that something isnt right

tryklon.7384:

That being said, Im sure ANEt will adress this issue soon, in fact I know they are planning to give out more tokens per boss and making this tokens account bound, together with this all dungeons will have tweaks to them to make them more enjoyable.

Im sure ANet hears its players and nott he morons who tell people to go play WoW, because they know that if people go to play WoW, they won’t be playing GW2, and I’m pretty sure they want people to play GW2 =P

Actually that is what worries me. ANet has absolutely zero plans to make group PvE content for players that are not hardcore with statics.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Do-NOT-nerf-please/first#post127216

The post is locked so I can’t quote it properly, but Colin Johanson said this:

As for the question about PuG’s for explorable dungeons, we’ve said all along that explorable dungeons are intended for highly organized/skilled groups of players. That is absolutely the case

AKA kitten you to the majority of the playerbase. They need a mode of the dungeons that gives out tokens but is also fun and enjoyable for the average gamer that doesn’t have the time for a static dungeon group to run with every day. Let us have fun, enjoy the content, and be able to earn gear. I think many so called casual gamers are quite skilled, they just don’t have the time to plan out a run with a static every night and need to be able to play with any random guildies or pugs they find.

Don’t tell me to farm DE’s or craft instead. I should be able to do whatever I want in this game and everything should be accessible to every gamer. I’ll probably do every type of thing this game has to offer because it’s all fun, but let me succeed in a dungeon with pugs and do the fights properly and not die. I want to have fun in dungeons. I know what I’m doing and have done hardcore content in other games, but I just don’t have the time anymore for that. Why can’t I still enjoy the dungeons and earn gear from them? There needs to be a middle ground.

Scourge.4317:

No, really now people in this genre scream and shout about not wanting clone #131344 and when they finally get one that actually tries to be different some of you do you best to try and change it into yet another clone. Then you scream about how its nothing but a clone and abandon the game. Honestly what the kitten is going on!

Where did I say I wanted a clone? I love the gameplay of GW for the most part, I love the weapon swapping, I love the jumping puzzles and vista/discovery-hunting, I love the crafting (other than actually grinding mats for it…). I don’t want another WoW or I’d still be playing WoW, not have quit shortly after Tier 11.

The problem is you thinking Trinity = clone. Roles exist in games for a reason. MOBAs have roles, SHOOTERS have roles, etc. Again, I really believe that ANet went too far in the other direction trying to stand out and be different, to the point of fixing things that aren’t broken.

In many fan polls I’ve seen on other sites as well, many of the highest voted options on “What do you think is missing?” are “Class roles/the Trinity.” MANY people besides myself think, now that the lack of roles has been seen in earnest, that ANet dropped the ball with this one.

Ideally they could make each class be ABLE to fulfill any role in certain unique ways—make Thief a Dodge/Mobility/Evasion tank instead of armor-clad, etc. I feel like that would increase the pool of players taking these roles instead of the “If you want to tank, be one of two classes” mentality.

But without roles, every dungeon IS a zergfest with no direction at all. The lack of aggro mechanics is probably the worst offender, but the entire situation is a mess.

…And proof of this is the fact the team is more concerned with me using the company name in my topic title and Infracting me for a perfectly valid post instead of realizing there’s an issue. Good lord.

AvalonBright.6957:

- First and foremost, the lack of the Trinity makes this an utter nightmare. There is no way to pull aggro, there is no way to really keep people alive, CC does little to nothing, the entire dungeon is nothing but a chaotic zergfest.

Lack of trinity does not entail zergfest as alternative. I have yet to hear a convincing reason that having a trinity is necessary. I understand your frustrations and have played with others who were equally as frustrated. It takes time to learn this system, but it isn’t a zergfest, this is the least helpful way of handling the dungeons. There is an aggro system, it’s just different and can vary:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

- Bosses are a nightmare. The jaded part of me wants to think ANet deliberately designed dungeons to be a gold sink with how much time you’re spending dying, repairing, and zerging right back in again from a waypoint. All of the above points make this impossible as well. With no way to keep aggro, no way to keep people alive beyond some extremely minor, long-CD healing, no CC, every fight is basically a rush to kill them before they can kill you.

You need more specifics. We as players who have completed (some or all) dungeon encounters can help you if you tell us which encounters are giving you difficulties. I’m not saying all are in a good state, but many are in a good place that can be accomplished without zerging.

- Loot is pathetic. You realize the point of dungeons is to get some sweet loot, right?

See numerous blog posts/articles/trailers that indicate there would be multiple avenues to the best stat loot and dungeons are meant for prestige gear. You may disagree with this philosophy, but it shouldn’t be surprising nor elicit demands for a change. Many are satisfied with a system that puts people on equal footing and let’s them choose the activities they enjoy doing, rather than seemingly being forced into one to stay relevant.

- You’re designed to be killed. A lot.

You’re also designed with several utilities and built in mechanics to avoid dying a lot.

You’re also designed with several utilities and built in mechanics to avoid dying a lot.

…Really? Where are they? I see none. Ever. You can’t CC anything so that gets rid of blinding/snaring/etc, you can’t drop aggro to avoid getting one-shot by snipers/bosses/whatever else, and in an attempt to stay true to a tab-targeting MMO while still trying to reach for being “actiony”, the stamina recharge on Dodging takes forever.

Adapt and overcome. That’s what you’re going to have to do. The trinity isn’t coming back, at least not in GW2.

If you can’t accept that then no one can help you. Protip, change how you think about the game instead of trying to get the game changed to suit your current thinking.

AvalonBright.6957:

You’re also designed with several utilities and built in mechanics to avoid dying a lot.

…Really? Where are they? I see none. Ever. You can’t CC anything so that gets rid of blinding/snaring/etc, you can’t drop aggro to avoid getting one-shot by snipers/bosses/whatever else, and in an attempt to stay true to a tab-targeting MMO while still trying to reach for being “actiony”, the stamina recharge on Dodging takes forever.

Can you cut out the histrionics? I’m trying to help you and it makes it seem like you’re here for a theatrical performance and not legitimately interested in receiving help. What is your profession and what are you having difficulties with?

AvalonBright.6957:

- First and foremost, the lack of the Trinity makes this an utter nightmare. There is no way to pull aggro, there is no way to really keep people alive, CC does little to nothing, the entire dungeon is nothing but a chaotic zergfest.

There is no way to pull aggro because the benefit of a tank pulling aggro — keeping a mob off someone else — can be accomplished by different means. Pushes, pulls, launches, knockback effects, stuns, kiting, all essentially also accomplish that.

There are most definitely ways to keep people alive. You have to think about neutering the damage output of mobs (blindness, weakness, protection effects, reflection and projectile absorption effects, condition removal, etc.) It may require you utilizing combo fields and figuring out how to best pool party resources. Dodge or LOS telegraphed and ongoing effects, revive downed party members.

AvalonBright.6957:

- Bosses are a nightmare. The jaded part of me wants to think ANet deliberately designed dungeons to be a gold sink with how much time you’re spending dying, repairing, and zerging right back in again from a waypoint. All of the above points make this impossible as well. With no way to keep aggro, no way to keep people alive beyond some extremely minor, long-CD healing, no CC, every fight is basically a rush to kill them before they can kill you.

Bosses are a learning experience and if you are new to them without having read up on the fight, then, yes, it may take a few attempts to figure out the mechanics. There is little point in keeping aggro on a boss, however, because most characters should have comparable base survivability (there’s only a few percentage points of difference offered by the different armor types; most everything else is a matter of your build and stat choices). Everybody is a potential tank and needs to adapt to potentially having aggro. And yes, there are ways to survive.

AvalonBright.6957:

- Loot is pathetic. You realize the point of dungeons is to get some sweet loot, right?

To each their own, but traditionally the point of dungeons is to experience adventure, not as loot dispensers.

fellyn.5083:

Adapt and overcome. Or leave. That’s the blunt truth. The trinity isn’t coming back, at least not in GW2.

Probably not. While I feel like there are quite a few options to have avoided this in the first place—aforementioned any class fulfilling roles with the right trait lines not the least among them—I’d be foolish to seriously expect the game to change so drastically ever. Perhaps in an expansion down the line, but even that’s getting my hopes up needlessly.

My statements regarding Trinity options are more of a “What if” scenario as to how it could have gone better from the outset.

That aside the dungeons are still a mess and still need fixed in some way to compensate for the lack of roles. Once again, without healing/aggro management/etc, a zergfest with bad mechanics does not a good time make.

There needs to be many changes. Aggro management at the very least. Lack of targeting downed players, definitely. Less one-shot “save or die” mechanics in every. single. fight. And so on.

AvalonBright.6957:

SirMoogie.9263:

AvalonBright.6957:

You’re also designed with several utilities and built in mechanics to avoid dying a lot.

…Really? Where are they? I see none. Ever. You can’t CC anything so that gets rid of blinding/snaring/etc, you can’t drop aggro to avoid getting one-shot by snipers/bosses/whatever else, and in an attempt to stay true to a tab-targeting MMO while still trying to reach for being “actiony”, the stamina recharge on Dodging takes forever.

Can you cut out the histrionics? I’m trying to help you and it makes it seem like you’re here for a theatrical performance and not legitimately interested in receiving help. What is your profession and what are you having difficulties with?

Stop saying I’m overreacting/using histrionics/etc like I’m trying to be a drama queen. You’re not helping your own bloody point either. My profession is irrelevant because the exact same thing is happening to every party member, occasionally barring one-shots since, again—clothie. But, again, no aggro management = tough cookies. Have fun dying, squishy.

What is your profession and what encounters are you having difficulties with?

If you really want to play a support class in GW2 I suggest playing an Elementalist. The use of combo effects in this game is what really makes or breaks the party.

For example:
Elementalist casts ‘Healing Rain’
Party receives Regeneration and Condition Removal
Warrior uses ‘Earth Shaker’
Party receives AoE heal.
Enemy suffers Stun!
ect.

I feel removing the trinity has made for a made for a much more active team based dungeon experience. People just have trouble dealing with change.

It would help if you told us what encounters were you having troubles on and what profession you was playing.

The first time in AC, I knew what was coming, still got downed, still resorted to graveyard zerg rushing The Lovers. Graveyard zerg rushing means to me that I’m not good enough for an encounter and have to cheese it. Nowadays I can take a random PUG, completely disorganized and can do The Lovers without anyone being downed once. I learned the trick to it, I learned how to do dungeons, I learned how to dodge and how to play my professions. I hear a lot of negativity towards thieves when it comes to dungeons, I was completely perma blinding all the trash mobs without any problems.

I’m going to throw out a generic comment and say “L2p” but unfortunately that’s what it really is. You simply need to learn how to play properly, the outside world doesn’t teach you anything and doesn’t prepare you for dungeons. Only after doing a few dungeons do you start to see it and you see things work, it might look chaotic, impossible, completely hard, disorganized and making you wish you had a healer, but then it starts to make sense.

I really enjoy this dungeon system a lot. I had no trouble dodge rolling out of Adelbern’s foefire attack. It gives you a good 1 second red circle warning before it starts. You just have to pay attention and need fast reflexes.

As far as “no loot” goes, there is loot. After you kill a boss, a treasure chest appears and you get nice items from it. The more magic find you have on your armor means higher chances of finding rare items.

Yes the first dungeon run is always the worst, but now I find I can do dungeons without even going into the downed state. It’s all practice and especially in your case, stay back and do more ranged DPS.

I play dungeons, I get mykitten kicked, I love it! Why? Well, on occasions I struggle to get to the end and other days I fly through with minimal death. The challenge is wonderful and it is not down to a lack of trinity, any failings come with a bad team. Dungeons are about the shortcomings of everyone and working together. As stated above different classes have different heals, AoE, buffs, conditions, etc. There is also combo kills in there too; casual or not, if you can play the game well and are lucky enough to have a good team then dungeons cause minimal suffering. It is all practice and GW2 does not hold your hand in the tutorial quest nor does it hold your hand the rest of the game. You played this game because it promised to be different, you hate this game because it is.

The biggest problem I have so far with dungeons is the utter lack of room to move. You can talk about kiting and short term CC to make up for the lack of tanking in the game but none of that means anything if you have no room to barley even dodge in.

Granted I’ve only done TA, CM, and Arah but they all have this problem…TA with its narrow corridors and stupid fast respawning plants…CM with its absurdly tight indoor areas and caves…And Arah with its annoyingly narrow deck of the airship.

It all just feels too confined. I doubt Anet will go back through and open these areas up more, but it would go a long way to making the mechanics of evading and dancing around mobs much more enjoyable.

Lists of dungeons I have done (mostly melee) with 0-2 “friends” and rest randoms.
Ascalon: all paths.
Manor: all paths
Twilight: all paths
SE: story + exp
CoF: story + 2 exp
CoE: 3 exp (one path might have had 3 “friends”)
Arah: story + 1 exp
HotW: none

I admit some were quite tough in the beginning but once you understand what is going on it gets much much better. Honestly, I wish they all were harder but for that there needs to be casual mode, too.

And talking about one-shot… getting hit by 1.6 MILLION damage from one deadeye sniper shot

Ashlotte in TA story all boss encounters occur in fairly open chambers that allow for kiting. Which one’s were you having difficulties with? The respawing plants are annoying, but they are on paths to destinations, and you generally don’t need to kite near them. Even the hound patrols can be grouped nicely on the bridge with wards (if you have a guardian) or other snares if you don’t. I play a guardian and focus on warding/control skills and most trash, when I’m prepared for it, is easily corralled

I prefer to play support and yet with full knowledge that there was not going to be a trinity I bought GW2 anyway. That is what I read. From your title I had full knowledge of the whiny post to come yet I opened it anyway. Im guilty of whining as well. You will get over it and play a game that you like instead of one that you do not.

And in the meantime, millions of players in-game are pugging explorable and story mode dungeons alike and managing to clear them.

Here we have a very small minority of the playerbase who can’t handle combat mechanics more complex than standing in a single spot, dpsing, and expecting results.

And anet knows that. Which means this thread will just be forgotten like every other “I am bad at this game, please make easy content even easier for me” QQ thread.

The only things which need tweaking or fixing are the numerous bugs and exploits in dungeons. Nothing more, or less.

And in the meantime, millions of players in-game are pugging explorable and story mode dungeons alike and managing to clear them.
Here we have a very small minority of the playerbase who can’t handle combat mechanics more complex than standing in a single spot, dpsing, and expecting results.
And anet knows that. Which means this thread will just be forgotten like every other “I am bad at this game, please make easy content even easier for me” QQ thread.
The only things which need tweaking or fixing is the numerous bugs and exploits in dungeons. Nothing more, or less.

So you are honestly saying you can kill all the mobs in the magg run choice in COF without kiting or suicide running it till 200 secs? Cause i call B.S. on that. Nothing exploit y or buggy with that event just kill the mobs, but the problem with this is that NO ONE can kill them like that as its intended.

Let me ask you. Why do most people actually clear groups without this ‘trinity’ of yours.

Stop putting everything on power. And get a bit of Toughness or Vitality. You will live longer.

Heck there are trinity’s… they are just.. well.. softer. There is no aggro. So there is no tank. You have controllers, who semi-buff people. And just controll the whole fight.. like you know, reflective walls, nets, knockbacks, cripples?

You have DPS, well they DPS and inflict conditions.. like poison (which makes heals less effective.) Chills, (which slows and makes abilities less responsive).

Supporters, which.. well semi-control the fight. And mainly get conditions off people and give them boons back. Just saying.

AC Story was easy. Very easy… I don’t see how people can have trouble with it.

The twins —> Rocks. They are twins like scissors.. you use rocks. Don’t be paper.

Hunter thing… rocks… plus.. wait he doesn’t even do damage.. oh wait he shoots things.. err reflective walls? Reflection? Kill adds? dunno…

And forgot the other bosses… the only one who maybe needs his damaged a bit lowered is the king cause his damage was pretty hurtfull.. but well.. you can cripple him and just LoS him and kite him… dunno… maybe I am just saying stupid stuff that doesn’t make sense.

Zerging is just the trademark of a bad group.

seventhson.6932:

So you are honestly saying you can kill all the mobs in the magg run choice in COF without kiting or suicide running it till 200 secs? Cause i call B.S. on that. Nothing exploit y or buggy with that event just kill the mobs, but the problem with this is that NO ONE can kill them like that as its intended.

Maybe, just maybe, if you used the brains nature has given you, you would realize a survival fight isn’t necessarily a fight you need to kill everything under the sun. Your entire premise is flawed when you ARE supposed to survive the time allotted by any means possible.

In any case, I have done it the so-called “intended” method by killing them as soon as they spawn. Not difficult, learn to focus fire and AoE.

Also, you would look less stupid as a poster if you didn’t take whatever you quoted entirely out of context and added extra ingredients to it. I said nothing about whatever ludicrous claims you made.

Why do most people just judge the entire dungeon experience (or the entire game lol) when they just tried it ONCE.

Sorry OP but you are doing it wrong, dungeons aren’t designed to die (specially story modes), neither to rush from graveyard.

Support skills are important, so does CC. Most people lack defensive skills/trait when they complaing about dying too much.

Not having trinity is fine, no, it’s MORE than fine.

The way to do instances is get to 80 first. The down levelling does not mitigate the extra skills and spells you have versus when the instance becomes available to you. Take some survivability in your spec. Almost All the bosses are just huge hitpoint dummies with ground circles to avoid. Very uninspired so far for me.

SirMoogie.9263:

Ashlotte in TA story all boss encounters occur in fairly open chambers that allow for kiting. Which one’s were you having difficulties with? The respawing plants are annoying, but they are on paths to destinations, and you generally don’t need to kite near them. Even the hound patrols can be grouped nicely on the bridge with wards (if you have a guardian) or other snares if you don’t. I play a guardian and focus on warding/control skills and most trash, when I’m prepared for it, is easily corralled

Kite what the boss is stationary. If your talking about the one variation of him that spawns adds I still don’t think its much room as you can only kite in circles for the most part.

Beyond that most of the trash packs on all routes are in narrowish corridors more times then not infested with annoying plants.

It’s not impossible to deal with mind you I just don’t get why dungeons in general feel so claustrophobic. Why can’t Anet infuse them with some of the expansive epic feeling that they gave to the open world? I’d love to turn a corner and be really blown away by some sight instead of having to fight everything in small little confined areas.

@Ashlotte

Variations on the dungeons would be nice, and may exist as I haven’t yet done them all. Brangoire is by far the toughest fight in TA, but yes you have that right, you have to circle kite him. It’s actually quite important that everyone does this in the same direction and in roughly the same manner, less you kite spiders into each other.

I come back to check on this tonight randomly… I just don’t know. Then again 99% of the type of people that frequent a game’s forums are the type to support it no matter what.

All I can say is I’ve been on three different fansites/boards today and seen three different polls with the majority votes happening to also mention the unstructured PvE/lack of roles is the biggest thing missing with the game.

Say all you want that people need to “l2P” or whatever else that boils down to telling people they’re just “bad”. Meanwhile the rest of us will be hoping ANet opens their eyes and realizes this gameplay needs some massive tweaks.

AvalonBright.6957:

Scourge.4317:

No, really now people in this genre scream and shout about not wanting clone #131344 and when they finally get one that actually tries to be different some of you do you best to try and change it into yet another clone. Then you scream about how its nothing but a clone and abandon the game. Honestly what the kitten is going on!

Where did I say I wanted a clone? I love the gameplay of GW for the most part, I love the weapon swapping, I love the jumping puzzles and vista/discovery-hunting, I love the crafting (other than actually grinding mats for it…). I don’t want another WoW or I’d still be playing WoW, not have quit shortly after Tier 11.

The problem is you thinking Trinity = clone. Roles exist in games for a reason. MOBAs have roles, SHOOTERS have roles, etc. Again, I really believe that ANet went too far in the other direction trying to stand out and be different, to the point of fixing things that aren’t broken.

In many fan polls I’ve seen on other sites as well, many of the highest voted options on “What do you think is missing?” are “Class roles/the Trinity.” MANY people besides myself think, now that the lack of roles has been seen in earnest, that ANet dropped the ball with this one.

Ideally they could make each class be ABLE to fulfill any role in certain unique ways—make Thief a Dodge/Mobility/Evasion tank instead of armor-clad, etc. I feel like that would increase the pool of players taking these roles instead of the “If you want to tank, be one of two classes” mentality.

But without roles, every dungeon IS a zergfest with no direction at all. The lack of aggro mechanics is probably the worst offender, but the entire situation is a mess.

…And proof of this is the fact the team is more concerned with me using the company name in my topic title and Infracting me for a perfectly valid post instead of realizing there’s an issue. Good lord.

I agree man. The trinity wasn’t a bad thing. It’s NICE to not having to wait for tanks or healers, but the trade-off is much worse. As you said, it’s a zerg-fest. It’s horrible. There are no mechanics whatsoever. Mobs hit too fast, too hard, have huge HP pools, but they lack any interesting combat mechanics. IMO give us LESS mobs in packs, but more intelligent, with different stuff they do.

I won’t quote or address every single thing you said, but you were completely right on all your points.

The greatness is being able to admit you made a mistake. The efficiency – fixing the mistake. If no trinity is what’s standing in the way of having decent mechanics in dungeons, then by all means, bring it back.

AvalonBright.6957:

I come back to check on this tonight randomly… I just don’t know. Then again 99% of the type of people that frequent a game’s forums are the type to support it no matter what.

All I can say is I’ve been on three different fansites/boards today and seen three different polls with the majority votes happening to also mention the unstructured PvE/lack of roles is the biggest thing missing with the game.

Say all you want that people need to “l2P” or whatever else that boils down to telling people they’re just “bad”. Meanwhile the rest of us will be hoping ANet opens their eyes and realizes this gameplay needs some massive tweaks.

It doesn’t need trinity.

Really annoys me when people that talks about things they don’t know and demands changes.

That’s why just people end up telling “l2p” “you are bad”, because people like you aren’t willing to learn and try things. You never think you could been doing something wrong, you don’t ask for help or suggestions.

It doesn’t need tryinity but need rolles…fact that everyone does the same thing kiting,spaming dmg/cc is boring…ppl want to stand out in their specific rolle…

Dungeons in this game are definitely not easy, but they are by no means impossible to do, my friends and i were able to 3 and half man (fourth guy was lvl 25) Ascalon Catacombs Story mode.

The only fights we had trouble with were the occasional mob pull and the lovers, and we are by no means “elite” players. These dungeons just require patience and practice, and that’s exactly what anet has been telling us since the beginning.

After adding on a fifth person AC Story was a breeze, and finally figuring out that we were supposed to use the rocks made us all laugh and feel stupid.

Now my friends and I are looking forward to dying in the other dungeons as well and beating them too

To clear things up: I vote for roles/trinity not because the dungeons are hard. I vote the way I vote because dungeons are BORING the way they are at the moment.

The current system promotes chaos and spam.

If anything, dungeons are too easy. Some parts are good, most parts are just too easy. Dungeons aren’t designed for PUGs hoping for a easy time. If PUGs can do it, there is no challenge for an organised team at all.

That being said, AC is one of the harder dungeons in the game. As you go on and get used to dungeons, things will be a lot easier on you. I personally was pleasantly surprised AC wasn’t a pushover dungeon and actually challenging, and now I am disappointed most other dungeons are a joke.

If it were up to me, I would make an ‘easy’ path in each dungeon with smaller rewards to give PUG players something to play, while increasing the difficulty in the other paths to give an actual challenge to players.

By the way, if you die too fast, you probably are running too little defence and don’t time your dodges well. Just get the hang of boss rotations and you’ll be fine for most bosses. Other groups can be a lot easier if you bring utility skills like blinds (against auto attacker mobs), protection (general defence) and cripple/chill (to kite around mobs). Damage from mages is largely avoideable by dodging.

Here’s what I think are the main problems with dungeons:
— AC is the first one: it’s a very rough newbie instance, something akin to pre-buff CM would’ve been better as the starter, short and sweet while giving people a heads-up on what they need to start thinking about. Currently it just destroys a lot of folks who would otherwise start on the group-play learning curve.
—Exploration modes give no warning. They’re built to be very hard, I get that, but let people know that before they go in. A group of 35s walking into AC explore expecting it to be similar are gonna get cheesed (it’s like getting creamed but it goes on longer). I even like the low level requirements, it lets me go with guildies when we’re in the right mood for it without waiting for folks to hit 80, but they need a heads-up.
—Waypoints. I haven’t seen past TA, but while AC story has good waypoints neither CM, TA, or CM explore do. Learning through death would be less painful if it didn’t include a 5-minute run. You can put the waypoints closer than that and still discourage boss zerging.

I have only the the original post, so forgive me if this has been brought up.

You were doing something wrong. You claim cc doesn’t work, no way of keeping people alive and it being a chaotic zergfest.

None of this is correct. CC is crucial for success. Knockbacks, stuns, slows, blinds. All these are nescessary for success in a dungeon. If you don’t use them properly, you suffer for it. There are lots of ways to keep people alive, but you can’t help them if they won’t help themselves. Aegis, protection and condition removal all work great towards keeping people alive. There are other way to stop damage than healing it up. It’s only a chaotic zerg fest because you don’t understand what’s going on. You went in with expectations from other mmos, which you played extensively, but these expectations led to behaviour that hurts you in the GW2 dungeons.

You can cc bosses, and everything they do has a trick to it. If you need to graveyard zerg a boss down, you are doing it wrong. It’s very inefficient, not to mention frustrating. And again, healing is not the primary way of keeping people alive, mitigation is. Preventing the damage altoghether is preferable to taking it then healing it up.

On loot, you realize the point of dungeons are the challenge and good times you have doing them, right? You shouldn’t run dungeons you hate because you get better rewards from it. The challenge in itself should be reward enough for doing it. If you don’t have fun in the dungeon, there is no need to run it.

On “designed to kill you” this is simply false. There is a difference between things being hard, and you failing on group coordination and tactics, and “designed to kill you”. The CM example with the golem you bring up is a good example. It didn’t “randomly aggro” you. It turned to you and shot rockets at you. That you couldn’t react in time to evade, or wasn’t prepared with some form of mitigation, is entirely your fault. You also mention being a clothie, and that’s the cause. This is false. Light armor doesn’t have significantly less survivability than heavy armor. It was your items or build that was wrong. Having either toughness or vitality, or a mix of them on your gear goes a very long way to making up for mistakes you make in a dungeon.

When everything was so horrible in the dungeons, didn’t you ever stop and consider you were doing something wrong? That it might not actually be the games fault you were failing?

i did all the dungeons story and finished all with pugs
that wasn’t easy, but possible, you just need time and some type of organization
you will die often if you don’t prest attention and you can’t enter a dungeon as a full dps, everybody need something to support the team: for exaple thief got aoe stealth, and this can save from bad aggro…; necro got fear…; ranger got pushback and the pet…; mesmer got clone, jump, stealth…; engineer got towers, pushback…; war got stun, pushback…; elementalist got slow, knockback…; guardians…mmm…they don’t need anything, they are just op^^.
there is always something you can do, you just need practice.
about the loot, ye maybe they have to revisit it, cos getting always the same helm in all dungeons story is not really nice, but in explorable mode the loot is ok: you can get rare craft items, gold items, and tokens, so you can get whatever you want.
and if you really want the trinity back, i think that you just have to change game

@AvalonBright

Complaints about one-Shots:
Indication that your gear neither has +health, nor +defense. Your experience with other MMOs should mean you are familiar with the concept of “gearcheck”. Well, check your gear. There are no “clothies”, the difference between plated armor and cloth is marginal. An Ele +def armor easily outperforms a Warrior in berserker plates. Looks are deceiving, it is all in the stats.

Compalints about Zerging:
Indication that a boss mechanic has not yet been observed in great enough detail to predict behavior and enact proper responses. If you “get” any boss in the game, dying is simply no longer happening. Also indication of team not rallying downed members for whatever reason. Dungeons do not tolerate this. Rallying team members is always a priority.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the dungeon system in this game as far as I see. I did AC story for the first time ever last night and sure there were some parts we weren’t prepared for but seriously after wiping once we figured out where we went wrong and completely owned it the second time around.

Especially in AC you need to utilize those boulders. They are scattered around for a reason. Zerging will most likely get you killed, you need to dodge, kite, work with your teammates to keep them up, don’t blow all of your skills right away, sometimes there IS a proper timing needed to blind, immobilize, etc..

As a guardian I had no problem tanking things for A WHILE. Between aegis, dodging, sanctuary, renewed focus, aegis, more dodging, that blocking heal. If you lose aggro, weapon swap and pull back with greatsword.

This is just ONE example of a profession being able to contribute to the team with just a little bit of effort. Don’t just watch the mobs health bar while you spam all your skills and then wonder why you died in three hits.

Unfortunately in order to do things without wiping a bunch you NEED to have experienced players. You can’t have people that are just stacking power on everything and think they can just blast things down WoW style. It doesn’t work like that.

I know while doing normal leveling up I’d see skills that would turn boons into conditions on enemies or vice versa on allies and I’m like, when the heck would I ever need that garbage. Here’s your answer.

The idea of Guild Wars is to join a guild. You can’t PUG everything and expect to get as far as those that join a guild and are active. I hop on my guild’s vent and we actually plan how we will go forward with each room and especially each boss.

Like that boss fight with the two lovers. We had one person dedicated on boulders knocking them down. Whoever has aggro kites (depending on armor level), I would take as much damage as I could until I had to sanctuary then I would kite.

It really wasn’t that bad.

I think the problem is that players expect to be able to breeze through things if they are high level and have high level gear, rather than having to actually think about what skills they are using.

You WILL wipe, you will probably wipe a whole lot until you gain the experience to do it easily. We call that learning.

@OP

I find that the more you have played previous MMOs, the harder the curve it is to learn these dungeons.

As others have stated, they are difficult, and you need to wrap your brain around a bit. For you, as a 12 year MMO veteran, you have ALOT to unlearn so you can learn

Draknar.5748:

….I know while doing normal leveling up I’d see skills that would turn boons into conditions on enemies or vice versa on allies and I’m like, when the heck would I ever need that garbage. Here’s your answer…..

Definitely wanted to comment on this part Draknar!

I remember when I saw the skill Wall of Reflection, tried it once, and said to myself “What a useless skill, when will I ever need this?!?”.

Until I ran CM EM dungeons, and saw the beauty of this skill. I mean seriously, in that dungeon with alot of ranged elites, this skill is OP!

You literally have to look over your skill in depth. And you have to think outside the MMO box before they become “Ooohhh!” moments.

The dungeons aren’t that difficult, you just have to adapt and practice. Use your skills, use combo fields, kite, dodge, make sure you aren’t bringing glass cannon gear & builds. Joining a guild is also important. If you see environmental objects like boulders, use them. Weapon swap and change skills if the fight requires it.

Everyone is the tank, healer and dps. Even with a support build you do need to do some damage as well. Make sure someone is using ctrl+t to call targets.

I’ve done AC explorable in around 1 hour and came out of it with a profit every time. I did SE explorable for the first time last night (without VoIP even) and died once.