Guild Wars 2

Ok here’s my idea for solving the unfair kicks solution in dungeons. Dungeon sellers will love me for this (feel free to express that love ingame;)

The solution consists of three parts:
1. Dungeon progression points
2. Majority point kick.
3. Payment declaration.

Dungeon progression points – they are my answer to all those troll kick issues. What are they? They are points awarded to character for passing each milestole of the dungeon (usually a boss, though not always). For each important dungeon step cleared you get one dungeon point.

Majority point kick
When it’s time to vote a kick, the guy in question must have majority of party’s dugeon points against him to be kicked. Because it’s the amount of points that decides, those who did more get bigger say.

Payment declaration. Any runner can declare that a chosen amount of gold from his dungeon completion reward money will be awarded to another party member once the dungeon is finished. Once that promise is made it cannot be reversed by the one who made it. Still it can be undone by the one who received it, given mistakes happen. Kinda like bidding on TP, but without withdrawal option for the buyer.
That way seller gets money only if buyer got what he payed for – a completed dungeon path.

Example of how it all works
You’re in Ascalonian catacombs path 1, things didn’t go peachy at burrows. Your party left, but you’re not a quitter and get new party. Now the 4 new people arrive and when things go south again, want to boot you. Well they can’t. Because you have 3 dungeon points (one for being there from the start, one for spider queen, one for kholer), while the 4 of them so far hasn’t earned a single one.
4 * 0 is still zero and 3>0.

You get it done on the second try. you get your 4th point, they all get 1. If they all were to vote against you now, again fail. 4 vs 4 = tie, no majority. To kick any of them you need one more person to tip it over 4 which is half of team’s current total points (4 of yours plus 4x 1 of theirs = 8 ).

The closer to boss the more balanced the tips of power, but then again it’s probably already established who’s troll and who’s not. Even if not, it would still require all 4 to kick the maker before boss, as one more milestone (the scepter search) lands maker of dungeon 5th point, and everyone else their 2nd point. That’s total of 13 pts in party, 7pts required to kick. If the maker is subject to kick all 4 would have to vote yes.

Ofc that’s a scenario with people joining halfway. If they were to join right before boss, then story is simple. 4×0=0, nuff said.

Ok so the guy who broke his back pushing through dungeon is relatively safe from “join in at end, kick maker” trolls. But what about the other end of the bargain? the buyers? Well here’s where the payment declaration comes in. Once the buyer declares to the seller (if that’s the case) his reward for service, he can be sure that they guy is not getting a dime, until he gets what he payed for (dungeon completed with him inside). After that the system rewards seller his promised gold + his own dungeon reward, while buyer still gets his tokens, exp and ephemeryal fragments.

Someone who soloed the path won’t be able to be kicked. Buyer won’t be able to be scammed – he can be kicked, but then seller gets nothing out of him.
I’d say it’s a way better system then what we have now. If you agree, +1 this post and holler your support;)

Edited the post this morning cause it was written late at night and had some nonsense in it

Dungeon points primarily effects run sellers, it’s not a notable issue for the general populace.

Gold declaration is codifying run selling, which anet allows but really clearly doesn’t like or want to encourage.

I do hope the kicking system will be adjusted in dungeons. Its ridiculous when i get kicked sometimes for no reason and it does makes me upset which leads to me quitting the game. (i quit long ago because of this, came back since i heard of expansion).

its quite especially toxic when people kick you for low ap even though it advertise as level 80 / level 80 exp. (low ap due to new account but still it shows how many people were toxic in this game and not giving you a chance to show them your skills)

I usually say LFM must love Phil Collins… I have yet to get kicked or had a bad experience with any of my parties. Phil Collins lovers are the friendliest people in the game.

10/10 would kick

before you think “solutions” think about all the things that can happen in a dungeon ok?

Conaywea.5062:

before you think “solutions” think about all the things that can happen in a dungeon ok?

I have. That’s why it’s called a solution and not “perfect solution”. Imho still a vast improvement in party kick policies.

I love the payment declaration, but not so sure about the point system. It’s aimed completely towards dungeon selling and could have some problems with normal parties. If you party with a friend you can still kick out the rest of the dungeon to sell it at last boss. It kinda sends out the sign that anet just Loves dungeon sellers and wants to fix things for them, but f the normal players.

Maybe add a kicking penalty of some sort on top of the point system, like the guy being kicked would get a kicking timer for 5 minutes – enough time to screenshot everything that happened and argue with the party. : p A little deadly for speed runs that get a noobie though… hmm.

How about in dungeon creating point you can choose certain terms for the path? Like you can choose a point system if you’re starting a solo/duo to sell it later, a 5-min penalty for kicking (or deduction of prize money/for leaving/something) or no penalties at all ?

The point system is quite fair for normal parties. If all 5 people did full path up to the boss, then all have equal amount of points and as result need at least 3 ppl to kick someone from party. One friend is not enough, you will need a majority.

That being said it’s not 100% scamproof and a guarantee of honest run. But it is world better then the current setup if you ask me.
If only on virtue that the scammer would have to do some serious soloing/duoing in dungeon to give himself position of power – work that most scammers want to avoid at all costs, given they scam exactly for the purpose of not having to honestly work for their money.

Progression points would still not prevent all problems, maybe make them worse in some cases.

A couple of days ago I (= dungeon newbie, maybe 15 runs so far) entered a new story dungeon to find that everybody else was already at the other end of the dungeon. I tried to make my way there and when I arrived and said hello, I was kicked without comment. Nothing to cry over as I hadn’t done anything yet, but nevertheless frustrating (I wondered what I had done wrong, I’m that kind of person). How could a progression system have helped me? Wouldn’t it have justified that kind of behaviour?

The other day we lost a party member to a disconnect, yesterday someone left in the middle because, apparently, his/her dinner was ready. Why would anybody help inexperienced players with half-completed or almost completed runs if the system puts them at a bigger risk to be kicked?

I like Onis’ last suggestion. Maybe you could make certain choices not just available but compulsory before posting a lfg offer. A lot of conflicts could be avoided by saying exactly what you want and what you have to offer I think. On the other hand, I don’t want to miss the funnier descriptions in lfg, so that option should definitely stay. ^^

WabbaJaga – well firstly let’s both agree the issue was not grand – it was all nearly done without you in it. It would be much greater harm if you did it from scratch with them, every mob, every boss, only then to be booted.

That aside, even in your “joined at end” scenario they would need majority of points to boot you which is 3 outta 5 ppl if they were the same team from the very start. Better then today’s two ppl and you’re gone.

As for dc’ers they would keep their points until kicked from party. if they get booted obviously they lose them. But once again majority is needed for that, which would be 3 outta 4 players in this scenario.

The dungeon progression points are not a system for dealing with each and every rotten egg that’s running a dungeon, as those things are quite subjective.
What it is for is fixing the current situation that allows for merely two people to kick whole party and that’s regardless to achievements of each members in progressing the dungeon. That is ridicilous. My system places emphasis on your “workhours” inside the dungeon, and doesn’t let two outsiders immediately kick everyone on their arrival.

Hate to break it to you, but we’ve been trying to get simple things like rewards rebalanced since launch. Same with bugfixes. Hell, you can still skip Lupi.

The “fix” to instance ownership took a year and a half, and made things worse.

The “fix to the fix” broke things even more and was reverted within hours of going live.

Sorry, but your suggestions are way beyond ArenaNet’s abilities. TBH, making any suggestion dealing with dungeons is futile.

:(

You’re right, ours are different perspectives and the problem with latejoiners kicking sellers may be a bigger problem, I don’t know about that.

I’m just a little wary of a system that values achievements or numbers over social behaviour. And there may be situations where kicking a person who has contributed more to a dungeon run may be completely understandable.

Also, the problem with disconnects exists, and as long as people are dependent on latecomers the system shouldn’t discourage that. Maybe it wouldn’t change anything, but on the German boards I have already heard people suggest to just kick two people who join a “want to sell” group at once “because they’re probably troublemakers who will kick you”. People start expecting and distrusting other people because of their experiences or even because of what the read in the forums. Your system might solve certain problems and create new ones, I’m just trying to write down my thoughts, no offence meant.

This a great solution. Unfortunately we have the same ludicrous 2 votes and you are out system we had a launch. My party had to do AC path 2 twice because Detha decided not to start the last encounter, a bug that has been in the game since launch. I wouldn’t get my hopes up.

We don’t even have a real player to player trade system. I don’t think they will add a special feature only for people sell dungeons, specially because it is not a supported feature.

xDudisx.5914:

We don’t even have a real player to player trade system. I don’t think they will add a special feature only for people sell dungeons, specially because it is not a supported feature.

HUGE HUGE difference there.

The player to player trade system isn’t there for a reason, the TP gets the job done just fine, the only “problem” people are trying to avoid with trading is the fees which are there for a reason. It combats inflation and keeps the economy stable by bleeding pure gold from it.

The group system in this game is just terrible though, there is no reason it is what it is over something else. They just made something and don’t care if it’s crap. I mean they least they could do is make the LFG not automatically place you in groups but instead have you go up for acceptance just like if I were to /join. That alone would do a heck of a lot to combat dungeon stealing as well as avoid the need for instantly kicking people who ignore messages whatever they are. For kicking simply requiring a majority and having an option for everyone to vote so 2 people could counter the other 2 people… that would be huge. But even these simple things we simply arne’t getting

Why create complicated systems when you can just add party leader?

Party leader would give all the power to 1 person instead of 2. Nothing has been done in 2 years to address this issue. Not only that, but they made the problem even worse because now when you get voted out at the end of a dungeon, you don’t even get the ground chests when you do it over again. A two votes and your out system shouldn’t even made it to launch. I see the same people in LFG day in and day out, its a dead feature.

Yet it works in many other MMOs. I don’t see any problems with giving party leader a right to start votekicks.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Yet it works in many other MMOs. I don’t see any problems with giving party leader a right to start votekicks.

Except of course the problems that related to them taking away the concept of the party leader :p

Maybe kicking should only be possible before the second boss is reached, and then only if three people out of five agree. Wouldn’t that solve the problem as well?

WabbaJaga.3861:

Maybe kicking should only be possible before the second boss is reached, and then only if three people out of five agree. Wouldn’t that solve the problem as well?

There are a ton of legitimate reasons to kick a person at or after the second boss.

I’ve recently been kicked at the end of a dungeon run, AC P3. Nothing went wrong throughout, except I asked why we were skipping Kholer which no one replied and moved on. When the Final boss was at 10% i was bumped out of the group and lost my rewards for the run. As no one talked during the run, I had no records or the players so there is no room for reporting.

I remember in GW1, we had a list of recent players. which is only kept in our friends list of a short time. I say, bring that back, so that we have some recourse for unfair kicks. Of course a new penalty or reporting for kicking might have to be implemented.

when you go out of a group (doesn’t matter if kicked or not), there is in the chat the message:
player x left the group
player y left the group
player z left the group
…

so you actually see who was in the group and you can report if u wish.

All we need really is to have a party leader system. Leader can’t be kicked, and majority vote is needed to kick.

Grok Krog.9581:

All we need really is to have a party leader system. Leader can’t be kicked, and majority vote is needed to kick.

No, because then we’re back where we were before. We had a leader system, and they took it out because of the problems.

Windsagio.1340:

Grok Krog.9581:

All we need really is to have a party leader system. Leader can’t be kicked, and majority vote is needed to kick.

No, because then we’re back where we were before. We had a leader system, and they took it out because of the problems.

We had an owner-with-no-power-except-kicking-destroys-instance system with everything else left up to plurality vote. That’s not a party leader system; a party leader system is something altogether different.

Zui.9245:

Windsagio.1340:

Grok Krog.9581:

All we need really is to have a party leader system. Leader can’t be kicked, and majority vote is needed to kick.

No, because then we’re back where we were before. We had a leader system, and they took it out because of the problems.

We had an owner-with-no-power-except-kicking-destroys-instance system with everything else left up to plurality vote. That’s not a party leader system; a party leader system is something altogether different.

Agreed.

The only system this game needs is a strong leadership. While the GMs arguably punish offenders every now and then, it would be far easier and more efficient to allow the creator of the party to handle things their way.

The thing is, even with weaker leaders, there were really bad cases of leader-abuse and leader-trolling. The no leader setup sucks for sellers, yeah, just about any leader system that leaves any kick freedom brings us back to the dark days of the leader kicking at the end of the isntance to sell.

That’s worse than any problem we currently have.

Windsagio.1340:

That’s worse than any problem we currently have.

You sure about that? I’d say having two people being able to kick anyone out of a party at any given time is far worse. Especially since the kicked party members would not be sure of who started the kick vote and who seconded it, considering that the party chat gets wiped (or at least it did when I played more often) between loading screens.
One bad apple can get the name and shame treatment, whereas these offenders we have today can remain relatively untouched, until they abuse their little trick enough for a GM to notice. This system was awful yesterday and it still is awful today.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Windsagio.1340:

That’s worse than any problem we currently have.

You sure about that? I’d say having two people being able to kick anyone out of a party at any given time is far worse. Especially since the kicked party members would not be sure of who started the kick vote and who seconded it, considering that the party chat gets wiped (or at least it did when I played more often) between loading screens.
One bad apple can get the name and shame treatment, whereas these offenders we have today can remain relatively untouched, until they abuse their little trick enough for a GM to notice. This system was awful yesterday and it still is awful today.

Giving leader special powers and protection puts uneven protection on the people participating in the group.

The problem with a ‘leader’ situation is it assumes that the group leader is more trustworthy, or at least has more right to the instance than the rest of the group. Neither of those are terribly reasonable assumptions to make.

I think the most important thing is to maintain neutrality. I’m personally glad that ANet did away with the concept of a party leader, as I believe everything should be done by consensus. Even though this has gotten me kicked unjustly from parties before, I truly do believe the vote-to-kick-anyone system is the most unbiased, neutral, and empowering system we have. No one has to feel compelled to “deal with” someone who is actively trolling them or doing something malicious. They can leave, or they can vote to kick, and if enough people agree that person is removed.

What I do disagree with, however, is the ease with which one can be kicked from a party. I think 2 people is insufficient for a 5-man or 4-man party, and it should always be a majority. Thus, including the person initiating the kick, I think the following numbers are appropriate.

5-Man Party: 3 votes
4-Man Party: 3 votes
3-Man Party: 2 votes
2-Man Party: 1 vote
1-Man Party: N/A

With this in place, you’d really have to be bothering a lot of people in the party to actually get kicked. Note that this doesn’t immunize players from being unjustly kicked, it just makes it harder, but at the same time it doesn’t immunize trolls or people abusing others who truly should be kicked.

The current system is much better than the old one with the leader. Removing the leader was request by the community because of the problems associated with having one.

If you are been kicked by 50% or more of the party maybe you deserved.

The only ones that we see QQing about new system are people selling a dungeon, which is not even a supported feature. And you can still just sell 1 slot per time and avoid problems.

My opinion is that the current system is working as intended and should be maintained.

This whole kicking is mostly a problem of sellers and they are operating in a gray area. So yes, if you are selling dungeons you are taking a risk. Arenanet isn’t going to rework the instance system just to make selling safe when they obviously don’t endorse it in any way.

If you join a group you are taking a risk. Better play solo.

Windsagio.1340:

Giving leader special powers and protection puts uneven protection on the people participating in the group.

You’re saying this as if it were too difficult for anyone, and I mean anyone to Create an instance-> Open the LFG tool-> Type Story/P1/P2/P3/P4-> Hit Send.

If an individual can purchase the game, install it and play it, then chances are that they can host their own group without major issues (They can even specify that they’re new, and the party will still fill up in less than 5 minutes).

It is also worth noting that the current system and the old system are the exact same system. The only thing they did was unbinding the instance from its creator.

Anyhow, I suppose that most of the players do not care about a problem, real or potential, until they see themselves affected by it. Sooner or later.

And that’s why i suggested my solution from the first post. It does not fix each every problem, but it’s a huge improvement in many areas.

Right now:
Two rotten apples can kick anyone they like as long as they are in sync to do their kicking fast, regardless of wheather they contributed to clearing the dungeon or not, or the fact they’re a minority.

Simple example. Two cheats want to kindnap a path and sell it. They join a late p1 Ac, get to boss kick everyone else, sell it for 2g. With 3 buyers they would get 6 gold divided by two people = 3 gold “reward” for their sleeze.

If my system goes live:
Wouldn’t happen at all, since the 3 party members they joined would have both the numbers and point advantage. Only kicking those two rotten apples could do is leaving the party themselves.

To scam successfully you would need 3 ppl, from the very start, all the way to the end. Now even if we had that (and scammers don’t like doing honest work which a fulll run is), they would only have 2 slots to sell and 3 ppl taking the money. So at same price as above – 4 gold income divided by 3 “businessman” = 1.33 gold each.
And that’s after they’re forced to do a full run from the start, rather then lazy abduction of someone else’s work.

Also do keep in mind that those 3 ppl can do the dungeon without extra help and make it an honest sale. It’s certainly easier then with just two.

As you can see it’s not perfect. Some more security would have to be put in place still. But it’s sure a lot less convinient for the rotten eggs of dungeon community and that’s a step forward, though not saying the last and final one.

Frankly, I would settle for that one solution. Even if it would be much like applying a band-aid on a stab would, it might report better results than what we currently have.

They need to completely rework the vote kick UI and system. The confirm/deny is such a joke of a system for a multi player party. Im not even sure why they designed it like that in the first place.

It’s true. You can’t even deny it right now unless you initiated the kick; it just sits there until someone confirms if you refuse to cancel it. That is one of the biggest problems with the system in my opinion; if you get enough downvotes it should remove the kick prompt.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

And that’s why i suggested my solution from the first post. It does not fix each every problem, but it’s a huge improvement in many areas.

Right now:
Two rotten apples can kick anyone they like as long as they are in sync to do their kicking fast, regardless of wheather they contributed to clearing the dungeon or not, or the fact they’re a minority.

Simple example. Two cheats want to kindnap a path and sell it. They join a late p1 Ac, get to boss kick everyone else, sell it for 2g. With 3 buyers they would get 6 gold divided by two people = 3 gold “reward” for their sleeze.

If my system goes live:
Wouldn’t happen at all, since the 3 party members they joined would have both the numbers and point advantage. Only kicking those two rotten apples could do is leaving the party themselves.

To scam successfully you would need 3 ppl, from the very start, all the way to the end. Now even if we had that (and scammers don’t like doing honest work which a fulll run is), they would only have 2 slots to sell and 3 ppl taking the money. So at same price as above – 4 gold income divided by 3 “businessman” = 1.33 gold each.
And that’s after they’re forced to do a full run from the start, rather then lazy abduction of someone else’s work.

Also do keep in mind that those 3 ppl can do the dungeon without extra help and make it an honest sale. It’s certainly easier then with just two.

As you can see it’s not perfect. Some more security would have to be put in place still. But it’s sure a lot less convinient for the rotten eggs of dungeon community and that’s a step forward, though not saying the last and final one.

Except that in a party with 5 you can’t kick with only 2. You need at least 3 votes. They changed it from 40% to 50% the number of votes to kick.

xDudisx.5914:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

And that’s why i suggested my solution from the first post. It does not fix each every problem, but it’s a huge improvement in many areas.

Right now:
Two rotten apples can kick anyone they like as long as they are in sync to do their kicking fast, regardless of wheather they contributed to clearing the dungeon or not, or the fact they’re a minority.

Simple example. Two cheats want to kindnap a path and sell it. They join a late p1 Ac, get to boss kick everyone else, sell it for 2g. With 3 buyers they would get 6 gold divided by two people = 3 gold “reward” for their sleeze.

If my system goes live:
Wouldn’t happen at all, since the 3 party members they joined would have both the numbers and point advantage. Only kicking those two rotten apples could do is leaving the party themselves.

To scam successfully you would need 3 ppl, from the very start, all the way to the end. Now even if we had that (and scammers don’t like doing honest work which a fulll run is), they would only have 2 slots to sell and 3 ppl taking the money. So at same price as above – 4 gold income divided by 3 “businessman” = 1.33 gold each.
And that’s after they’re forced to do a full run from the start, rather then lazy abduction of someone else’s work.

Also do keep in mind that those 3 ppl can do the dungeon without extra help and make it an honest sale. It’s certainly easier then with just two.

As you can see it’s not perfect. Some more security would have to be put in place still. But it’s sure a lot less convinient for the rotten eggs of dungeon community and that’s a step forward, though not saying the last and final one.

Except that in a party with 5 you can’t kick with only 2. You need at least 3 votes. They changed it from 40% to 50% the number of votes to kick.

go test this out for yourself right now and see if it works. if it does I will give you ALL the gold I have in game.

xDudisx.5914:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

And that’s why i suggested my solution from the first post. It does not fix each every problem, but it’s a huge improvement in many areas.

Right now:
Two rotten apples can kick anyone they like as long as they are in sync to do their kicking fast, regardless of wheather they contributed to clearing the dungeon or not, or the fact they’re a minority.

Simple example. Two cheats want to kindnap a path and sell it. They join a late p1 Ac, get to boss kick everyone else, sell it for 2g. With 3 buyers they would get 6 gold divided by two people = 3 gold “reward” for their sleeze.

If my system goes live:
Wouldn’t happen at all, since the 3 party members they joined would have both the numbers and point advantage. Only kicking those two rotten apples could do is leaving the party themselves.

To scam successfully you would need 3 ppl, from the very start, all the way to the end. Now even if we had that (and scammers don’t like doing honest work which a fulll run is), they would only have 2 slots to sell and 3 ppl taking the money. So at same price as above – 4 gold income divided by 3 “businessman” = 1.33 gold each.
And that’s after they’re forced to do a full run from the start, rather then lazy abduction of someone else’s work.

Also do keep in mind that those 3 ppl can do the dungeon without extra help and make it an honest sale. It’s certainly easier then with just two.

As you can see it’s not perfect. Some more security would have to be put in place still. But it’s sure a lot less convinient for the rotten eggs of dungeon community and that’s a step forward, though not saying the last and final one.

Except that in a party with 5 you can’t kick with only 2. You need at least 3 votes. They changed it from 40% to 50% the number of votes to kick.

No, they had it in the patch notes that they changed that. But then they stealth changed the patch notes to remove any mention of it. The change never made it into the game.

Because… communication?

Zui.9245:

Because… communication?

lawls.

You got it.

Windsagio.1340:

Giving leader special powers and protection puts uneven protection on the people participating in the group.

The problem with a ‘leader’ situation is it assumes that the group leader is more trustworthy, or at least has more right to the instance than the rest of the group. Neither of those are terribly reasonable assumptions to make.

Eh, I don’t agree with that.

In a perfect world, sure it would be uneven but parties are already uneven. Look, in a straight up PuG group where no-one knows each other, the likelihood of being kicked is low and if someone does get kicked it’s skill related, class related, AP related, etc…

The troll kicks we’re talking about come into play when we deal with players who know each other. If you’re in a party with friends or guild mates, the balance of power is already skewed your way (or against you if you’re the minority party). If you join a group with 2 people from another guild, your vote essentially means nothing because the two of them can kick anyone with 0 consesus from the group.

Yes, you can have crappy party leaders. Guild Wars 1 worked like that and lord did we have some crappy party leaders. That said, we also had good ones and a lot of decent ones. Most folks kept the order and generally people who joined the party would toe the line and play ball with the party’s rules.

Again, the balance of power in GW parties are an illusion. Your vote doesn’t always carry the same weight. In a party with two affiliated members, your vote is essentially meaningless.

It’s closer to a balance of power. There might be a problem if players collude, but a leader system is a guaranteed balance of power.

Further, the issues with kicks seem to be not exclusive to, but centered on some very specific types/styles of dungeon situations, with a special focus on sellers (I suspect it’s because the kick people feel sellers are ‘fair game’, which is pretty crappy on its own) and issues with ‘exclusive’ groups.

Are people seriously advocating for a party leader system? Literally the only change we’ll see is forum posts changing from “I got kicked because of 2 trolls in the party” to “I got kicked because of 1 troll in the party”. Congratulations, you just made the problem 2x worse! The only people a party leader system benefits are path sellers, which is not a group that deserves to be catered to. And don’t give me that “it works for other MMOs” garbage. GW2 is not other MMOs, and that’s the reason it’s so much better than all the rest. All they need to do is make it so it takes >= 50% of the group to vote “yes” on a kick for it to succeed. That’s it. Problem solved. No convoluted dungeon points system and no party leader trolls. ANet just implements a system they already sorta implemented.

If I thought ANet gave a kitten i’d go into more detail, but… In a party leader system it would be a dictatorship of sorts. The nice thing though, is if this person kicked someone at the end to bring a friend in… “hmm lets check the logs, ok, so they were at the final boss, and Soandso got kicked, then Mrpartyleader invites Joeschmo off his friends list into the party” Hmm… wonder if there’s some abuse going on here? hmm. I kinda like the idea of all the blame being on one person…

Again though I don’t think ANet gives a kitten, about the issue, or about the people doing it and those that are victims of it.

One single abuser would be easier to pinpoint than two or more, but clearly ANET is not very fond of logic and practicality

I think your idea has merit. We just need to admit that a perfect solution isn’t really likely to happen.

But, this point system addresses one of the major issues, which is it protects people who have invested more time in the dungeon.

a) If everyone stays in the dungeon and all players have equal points, then it is no better nor worse than the current system.
b) If everyone leaves leaving the original party leader and perhaps an additional friend, they still retain power over the group. They put in the most time and progressed the furthest so that’s fair. It doesn’t protect the people joining however and this might need to be addressed. There might need to be a catch system where new people joining can not be immediately kicked (timer?). Again this can not solve all possibly situations, but we’re trying to move towards a system that can.
c) To have more control, perhaps ‘bonus’ points should be awarded to an instance creator. Giving the party ‘leader’ the right to veto. This offers some measure of control and promotes people to create their own groups for more control. The downside is that this might create a situation where a group of possibly 2 party members holds power over the rest. Depends on the amount of ‘bonus’ points awarded?

Also, the current way that kicking is implemented seems annoying to players. Promoting people to kick rather than look at the information presented. A better warning and confirmation/action announcement might help solve that. Specifically a cancel or abstain button might be worth implementing.

I think this issue should be brought up with the new fractal and dungeon forum rep and possibly we can talk about refining the system to make it work.

The main flaw so far that I can see is if 3 or 4 players worked together to invite someone else to run and decided to kick them towards the end to gift it to a guildmate or a friend. However, this might always be the risk with pugging. Aside from a reporting system with penalties, I’m not sure how else to prevent such a setup.

But, I support this idea and at least I think it is no worse than the present system.