Guild Wars 2

This was an interesting conversation that sparked in a guild chat earlier, and I wanted to share it here, to get a wider range of opinions on the matter.

What do we, the dungeon community, consider a legitimate, or non-legitimate speed run/record?

Recently; there have been several speed ‘record’ videos posted by various guilds, most of them hosting a various range of either obvious, or debatable exploits. What is the general opinion of ANY exploit use in a speed run record?

My opinion, is that a legitimate speed run record is one that doesn’t intentionally bug/skip encounters (see: common garden decorations), and all of the main objectives within the dungeon path are completed.

Here are some of the recent speed ‘record’ videos:

5min AC Story
3:57 SE P1
5:57 SE P3
11:11 Arah P1
10min Arah P3

In each of these videos, there is at least 1 questionable tactic being used. Do you agree with that? Please, let’s try and have a proper discussion about this. Let’s decide what we, as a community think should determine a legitimate record run.

Do we condone all exploits, or do we prohibit all of them? How do we decide what is, and isn’t an exploit?

Discuss.

I’d say anything that Anet would remove if they actually had people working on dungeons/balance/bugs etc shouldn’t be in a “legit” speedrun.

I’m only a little conflicted on Fiery Rush because it’s so obviously unintended, but I wouldn’t go so far as to call it an “exploit” in the same way using skritt bottles was or bypassing geometry in Arah P4, to name a couple examples. But it’s like, just because it’s unintended doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be used. I mean, I’m 100% certain that having an elementalist with LH and 25 might being the highest damage dealer in the game is probably unintended, but you’d be silly not to take advantage of it.

But by that definition, what is and is not considered an exploit could change on a whim if an Anet dev were to post and say “yeah we’re aware of that, it’s on the list for removal in the next few weeks”. To make it simple, are you 100% comfortable putting that method up on Youtube and publicizing it to every player, as well as Anet? If so I’d say it’s pretty legit.

I don’t think gw2 is serious business to the point of giving a kitten.
Getting these records might be fun for some of the remaining players but personally, I can hardly find the desire to log on anymore because this game just doesn’t deliver after a year, it’s still the same old 8 dungeons + fractals.

And I wasn’t heavy on exploit myself, I even drped the last time I did arahp1 because I aggroed the ooze away while the rest of the group just went straight to the coral. In the end when I really think about it, exploit or not I don’t really care enough. It gets stale to do the same content over and over and for some, it might be fun to perfect it to an art, but for some like me I just don’t feel like doing the content again, and again, and again.

I’d say, rT’s arah path 1 was a thing of beauty to watch, because exploit or not, it was made with pure, 5 almost solo players running through everything with zero downtime. I left my previous guild because I was tired of all the ceremonial “we weren’t ready” “wait!” and felt I was having more fun in pugs than doing dungeons their way. Pugs being usually very chaotic are prepared and don’t really have that kind of downtime, their run is usually slower because non optimized but I had more fun on average doing pugs than optimized but ceremonial runs.

Kind off on and off topic rant, but whatever.

I think that if you care enough like HC and make a youtube video about it your btthrt you’re probably too addicted and need help.
In the end, the only fun in this game can be found in soloing, but with the huge amount of hitpoint of basically everything it’s more of a borefest than fun to get done. Lupicus is fun to solo, but to get there you have to deal with the boredom of doing Belka and the Abomination first. I’d be surprised if any of the soloers were to say that doing these bosses is “fun”, and if you do find that fun, whatever. If you like doing things like Lupicus solo, there are far better games out there that can give you a run for your money. Dark Souls for example. DS has boss fights that are just as good as lupicus at every corner, and trash that can truly mess you up, but the fight don’t last for 30 hours because while trash can mess you up they don’t have a billion hp.
Anyone who has tried Dark Souls at least just past the tutorial would understand. Even the skeletons after the very first boss fight have better AI than anything in GW2. But they don’t have a billion hp so they don’t take forever once you figure out the timing of their moves.

So, my conclusion on this, use ""questionable"" tactics, I don’t care. This game isn’t worth the pain anyhow. If I still cared enough to log on and try to get the fastest runs on record I’d probably abuse every single exploit that would be beneficial to get the fast runs (as opposed to useless exploits like what the pugs use in NA to kill the AC P1 end boss.. Funnily enough, EU pugs don’t use that exploit at all. So far I never saw an EU pug use the stairs since I transferred.. ran counter to what I used to think about EU pugs in the past). If you’re speeding up the runs, good, if it’s just making it easier but doesn’t speed up, meh.

Anet is not supportive of this type of playstyle anyhow, all the content introduced since fractals has been utter crap except for liadri, but just a bit, because it doesn’t take all that much to figure her out. I would say, that I am very surprised that there is still an hardcore base trying to make this game more hardcore than it needs to be. This game is not meant to be fun. They want you to do open world crap. Dungeons? what are dungeons? anet doesn’t care about dungeons or more organized group activity.

If you care enough about what is a “legit” speedrun and what is not, you should probably not play this game.
Do I condone “exploit”? I don’t explicitly condone them, but I don’t give a kitten either.

It might be because I’m oldschool, but in my opinion, whoever has the shortest time interval between zoning in and getting the end reward has the record. The only thing prohibited should be third party software like telehacks and zoning in beforehand to prepare certain things before starting the video.

Other than that, to me, all is fair game.

I realize not many people on this forum will share that view, so I guess I could settle with the need to kill all bosses/complete all objectives along the way, but in my personal opinion, saying that all is fair game usually sparks more creative solutions to dungeons and encounters.

Honestly its really what the community accepts to be legitimate or not. If certain tactics or methods are regarded as blatant exploits or flaws in the game itself by a significant majority in the community, then I see no reason for it to be considered otherwise.

There is no official rule book or list of no-no’s for record attempts which results in there being a lot of gray and largely disputed areas among the members of the community, an obvious culprit of this is Fiery Rush. If you consider fiery rush and the amount of obscene (and obviously unintended) amount of damage it does relative to other skills, this could very well be viewed an exploit. But on the other hand, the skill is so widely used as far as record runs go that it has just simply become a part of the meta. Fiery Rush can be compared to so many skills that were blatantly abused in GW1 (NT comes to mind) to achieve faster times that eventually became such a core part of the record scene that not using them would simply be foolish.

Knox.8603:

Honestly its really what the community accepts to be legitimate or not.

The community can suck a kitten or two.

Bright.9160:

It might be because I’m oldschool, but in my opinion, whoever has the shortest time interval between zoning in and getting the end reward has the record. The only thing prohibited should be third party software like telehacks and zoning in beforehand to prepare certain things before starting the video.

Other than that, to me, all is fair game.

I realize not many people on this forum will share that view, so I guess I could settle with the need to kill all bosses/complete all objectives along the way, but in my personal opinion, saying that all is fair game usually sparks more creative solutions to dungeons and encounters.

I’m with him.

Heck, if you wanted to keep the current “fastest possible time from zone to completion” and still show off the people who aren’t using these questionable methods, you could very easily have an any% and 100% category like the communities for a vast majority of other speedrunners do. Any% is just that, all methods are good-to-go, 100% can vary in definition for each particular game/dungeon path. In the case of most dungeons, I would think the death of every Legendary enemy in the path that can be killed (obviously exceptions for rng things like AC Cave Troll) would be a fair marker for 100%.

Well, Nikaido, I look at it as something that the community has full control over. The people who are really having a lot of fun with this game, trying to push the limits of dungeons and what is possible, sharing with the community new tricks and tactics (legit or otherwise), are ultimately the ones who decide how seriously they should take the scene.

Personally, I really enjoy trying to see just how fast I can take a team through a dungeon path; however it would all be pointless if the community did not approve of the methods used. After all, if your time is not recognized by the community as a proper accomplishment, what was the point? I understand that you have some pretty strong feelings against this game currently, but try to look at it from a more impartial side of things.

I wonder if keeping Bjarl perma knockdowned with Spiky Fruit is considered an exploit. I mean you are cleverly taking advantage of a foe with no Defiance, but it’s just… A whole lot of gray area. To be honest I wish inventory summons like the Fire Elemental Powder and Ogre Whistle weren’t considered legit, because c’mon who actually uses those in everyday runs….

Nikaido’s quitting! Can I have your gold?
That said I probably would have quit playing a while ago if I hadn’t found the sense of community in LoD. I mean TS went down for a few hours one day and I simply couldn’t keep myself entertained enough with just the game.
As for the ‘ceremonial’ waiting, I don’t really know what to say, was waiting 3 seconds for the slower professions i.e Mesmer to catch up before yolo’ing into the boss really that painful? :/
My god, you’d go insane if you ever went on a run with Cocoa, I swear that guy RP walks everywhere.

Nikaido.3457:

I don’t think gw2 is serious business to the point of giving a kitten.
Getting these records might be fun for some of the remaining players but personally, I can hardly find the desire to log on anymore because this game just doesn’t deliver after a year, it’s still the same old 8 dungeons + fractals.

I would say, that I am very surprised that there is still an hardcore base trying to make this game more hardcore than it needs to be. This game is not meant to be fun. They want you to do open world crap. Dungeons? what are dungeons? anet doesn’t care about dungeons or more organized group activity.

If you care enough about what is a “legit” speedrun and what is not, you should probably not play this game.
Do I condone “exploit”? I don’t explicitly condone them, but I don’t give a kitten either.

/thread, +1, etc

haviz.1340:

Nikaido.3457:

I don’t think gw2 is serious business to the point of giving a kitten.
Getting these records might be fun for some of the remaining players but personally, I can hardly find the desire to log on anymore because this game just doesn’t deliver after a year, it’s still the same old 8 dungeons + fractals.

I would say, that I am very surprised that there is still an hardcore base trying to make this game more hardcore than it needs to be. This game is not meant to be fun. They want you to do open world crap. Dungeons? what are dungeons? anet doesn’t care about dungeons or more organized group activity.

If you care enough about what is a “legit” speedrun and what is not, you should probably not play this game.
Do I condone “exploit”? I don’t explicitly condone them, but I don’t give a kitten either.

/thread, +1, etc

Agree.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Well, Nikaido, I look at it as something that the community has full control over. The people who are really having a lot of fun with this game, trying to push the limits of dungeons and what is possible, sharing with the community new tricks and tactics (legit or otherwise), are ultimately the ones who decide how seriously they should take the scene.

Personally, I really enjoy trying to see just how fast I can take a team through a dungeon path; however it would all be pointless if the community did not approve of the methods used. After all, if your time is not recognized by the community as a proper accomplishment, what was the point? I understand that you have some pretty strong feelings against this game currently, but try to look at it from a more impartial side of things.

Well, what was the point? if you do it, do it for yourself, if you have fun, then do it, if it’s not fun for you, then don’t. Community? what community? There’s barely any dungeon community to speak of. Beside the people who come on this dungeon subforum plus the crew of “OHEXPLTZ” from HC there isn’t really any sort of larger dungeon community.

I’d be sad for you if you’d let a community slightly larger than my ten fingers can count decide for yourself whether a record should be made in that way or the other way.

Dolan.3071:

Nikaido’s quitting! Can I have your gold?.

I barely have 10 gold left (I spent the remainder of my gold on making an ascended Focus). And I’m not fully quitting. No point in making it dramatic. I can still play when I feel like it. I just don’t feel like this game is worth logging on everyday, grind some gold/dungeons then log off while feeling zero sense of fun through the process.
Just i’m not going to log on everyday just because anet decided for us to have to do dumb dailies on, and I’m not going to continue doing the same content over, and over, and over, just so that I can get weapons that will allow me to… what? do the same content again! and again! At the very least the true grind MMORPGs will give you CONTENT for that grind, give you a REASON for grinding, this game just makes you grind the same kitten for absolutely jack kitten. Why grind for ascended weapons. So that you can do the same dungeons 30s faster? I realized with the last ascended weapons patch that I was going to be a prisoner of the dumbest skinner box in the world if I still kept playing this game everyday as opposed to casually. At the very least, like I said, the other skinner box give you a reward at the end in the form of accessing new content that is worth playing.

You know what is the true guild wars 2 end game? Trolling. Trolling is the true gw2 end game. I love all the trolling going on more than I love playing this game.

The original idea of posting this, was to get a clearer image of what people think is, or isn’t acceptable in a speed run. Whether that’s important to you or not, is exactly what this thread was meant to find out. I’m personally content with my own view of what is, or isn’t a speed run, and will continue to partake in videos that I view as legitimate. However, even if there is maybe one person who comes to realize the reality of speed running in this game (which is that of people not caring about exploits), then the thread was successful.

Maybe you’ve given up on the game, that’s fine. Many others still find it enjoyable, and will continue to do what they’ve been doing for the last few months. Perhaps with information here, more people will see that the community is more accepting of ‘questionable’ innovation within dungeons, and more competition will arise. Perhaps some will even change their minds. Instead of promoting the idea of everyone quitting, I’d much rather promote a more competitive PvE scene between guilds, as would many others.

Your biggest competition doesn’t even read the dungeon subforum, Cookie. Whose mind is the most important to change if you really care about this that much? Certainly not the couple PVT players who haphazardly stumble upon this subsection only to get flamed at the end. The ones that made you make this thread (at least, I’m pretty sure they were 99% responsible for it) aren’t going to answer here.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

This was an interesting conversation that sparked in a guild chat earlier

Look at this quote. I am most definitely not aiming this at the reddit crew. This sparked because people who I would associate as the top level of players, are unsure themselves of what people would/would not accept from them in a video.

As for HC, they do their own thing. I actually talked to one of their members earlier today about all this, you’d be surprised about how things really are when you aren’t busy being a Negative Nikaido

There are 3 guilds that this forum would most likely associate with a speed run.

NA: DnT
EU: rT, HC.

Then there is the less known of [DpS], who are also euro. That’s 4 guilds, I’m sure there are others out there. I refuse to believe that this game only has 4 guilds capable of forming runs at the highest tier.

Nikaido.3457:

Your biggest competition doesn’t even read the dungeon subforum, Cookie. Whose mind is the most important to change if you really care about this that much? Certainly not the couple PVT players who haphazardly stumble upon this subsection only to get flamed at the end. The ones that made you make this thread (at least, I’m pretty sure they were 99% responsible for it) aren’t going to answer here.

Indeed, they posted in general discussion, next to the “Coasters For the Kids. A CHARITY” and “Champion Farming” threads.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

This was an interesting conversation that sparked in a guild chat earlier

Look at this quote. I am most definitely not aiming this at the reddit crew.

Haviz understood my point better. I don’t know how you took it to mean that your “biggest competition” was reddit.

Nikaido.3457:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

This was an interesting conversation that sparked in a guild chat earlier

Look at this quote. I am most definitely not aiming this at the reddit crew.

Haviz understood my point better. I don’t know how you took it to mean that your “biggest competition” was reddit.

Well, you would have seen that I had addressed it properly further through the post. The reddit part was my first assumption, because everyone knows the #1 crusaders of slow-and-steady is reddit. I felt that you may have been referring to me wanting to see what people who frequent reddit think about everything. It was a misinterpretation that I didn’t feel like removing. No point in trying to hide an honest mistake, it is what it is.

However, if you really want to know. It’s because the second sentence caught my attention more than the first. I figured you were insinuating that I was trying to change the minds of the general reddit populace.

Nikaido.3457:

Your biggest competition doesn’t even read the dungeon subforum, Cookie. Whose mind is the most important to change if you really care about this that much?

Don’t mind me, just testing if signature works. Well, to be on topic, all records are legit

I find a lot of truth in what Nikaido is saying.

@Topic: my opinion is that a proper record would have to be done with role play in mind, at least to a certain extent. I know this word can hurt some sensibilities but what I mean is that a record should look beautiful. The team would have to make the community feel like they are a group of heroes, not afraid of any challenge. The team would face encounters and overcome them in the way the community is most afraid of, but still use the cleverest tactics in order to cut time.
Technically speaking it is hard to state how exactly this can be achieved. But as a guideline the question that the runners would have to keep in mind is “are we making a story worth telling?” if yes then it is a beautiful run for me.

^ What? Does this mean I have to walk everywhere, watch cutscenes and feign storyline conversations? Will I have to reroll to a unique profession so we’re more like Destiny’s Edge?

Well no, definitely not, that would be way too extreme.

A few things you would have to do however:
-kill any foe that has aggroed you
-complete all events

The problem with “everything is legit” is that the record doesn’t stand for very long if the developers do their jobs and close map/AI exploits.

And come on, it’s gotta make you feel a little bit dirty, I mean would it really feel like a job well done if Consumable X obtained from an NPC in Sparkfly Fen allowed you to walk in to the dungeon, pick a path, use the item, and collect tokens? Not that I wouldn’t totally do that 20 times a day, but holding that up as a record speedclear?

I wanted to be of the opinion that pretty much everything is legit like it was in gw1. But gw2 introduced jumping and with things like the arah p4 jumping puzzle I think things like map exploits should be avoided. Also i dont really think unique consumables should be used but I dont mind too much about them.

So basically go through the whole dungeon without skipping any required objectives. But as far as fights go things like fiery rush or stacking on the coral for ooze are allowed until anet fixes them.

In my opinion, anything is legit unless ANet remove it.

“exploit” away with your fiery greatsword, sure you’ll get some QQ from Define (really don’t get why they’re so mad) but ANet have done jack all to fix it, so I wouldn’t even count it as an exploit.

Zelyhn.8069:

Well no, definitely not, that would be way too extreme.

A few things you would have to do however:
-kill any foe that has aggroed you
-complete all events

Cue one hour Arah “records”

In my opinion, anything is legit unless ANet remove it.

“exploit” away with your fiery greatsword, sure you’ll get some QQ from Define (really don’t get why they’re so mad) but ANet have done jack all to fix it, so I wouldn’t even count it as an exploit.

Define were just mad they didn’t think of it first, which is odd because I first learnt it from a PuG back when you could 3 in 1 CoE :/

Record is legit when cookie, mariah or administrator approve it.

Dolan.3071:

Define were just mad they didn’t think of it first, which is odd because I first learnt it from a PuG back when you could 3 in 1 CoE :/

This is Defines stance on everything

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1mjre5/definehc_is_fiery_greatsword_an_exploit/

Actually ends up being on-topic for this thread, because some of the replies display how they feel about ‘exploits’ in dungeons. However… yea. Just read it.

I thought Define were pretty cool guys until this video.

But their responses in that topic are just pathetic.

I’m trying to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they’re just trying to uphold very specific standards, but it looks more and more like it’s just a personal thing.

You had me until reddit. This place is ridden with casuals, bads, PVT/Wayfarer’s conditon burn/poison/vuln scepter torch mesmers and mindless open world zerg 111111111111 orr champ farmers.

Emanuel.9781:

You had me until reddit. This place is ridden with casuals, bads, PVT/Wayfarer’s conditon burn/poison/vuln scepter torch mesmers and mindless open world zerg 111111111111 orr champ farmers.

The post is from Define [HC]. It’s not from PVT/Wayfarer players (I assume, at least).
I wouldn’t waste peoples time linking a reddit thread that I didn’t think was actually interesting.

Im on reddit quite a lot, and that thread has been pretty bad in terms of ignorance. Even by reddit standards. I dont even know what to think anymore.. :/

Whats the exploit they used in SE p3? I watched that and Im not really sure what you’re referring to.

The Whirlwind against the wall? I don’t really think that’s an exploit.

I don’t think many people ever realized that you’re not actually supposed to jump off of that cliff after the first boss. There’s a proper path there for a reason. Why did I bother to bring it up? Because they feel like complaining about ‘exploits’ in speed runs. Thing is, it’s such common practice at this point that no one even blinked an eye when they saw it. This pretty much just shows how most of the community acts when it comes to ‘exploits’ in runs. And then there’s Define [BHB]

Do I care that they did it? No. Do I think it’s ironic though? Yep.

Hmm i dont really agree with that. But I dont agree with them saying FGS is an exploit either. Sure its unintended and from what ive heard its probably going to be fixed pretty soon. But as long as its available you can use it imo.

I completely agree with you, Spoj. As I said. I only pointed it out because there’s a pretty cute little double standard going on here.

As I said in my OP, I don’t care what people do to complete a speed run. Just don’t hack or skip any of the primary objectives. This is how I think most people feel after making this thread.

Until Anet releases videos on each dungeon showing us how they are meant to be run then everything is free game, short of using third party programs. In game items are acceptable since they are contained within the game. Runs should be timed from zone in to completion. None of this “I don’t start the timer until the path is chosen…” <—- casual talk.

Id say most paths should start the time from path select. Exceptions are on paths like cof, ac and ta.

I wrote a huge thing but took too long and got timed out. So I’ll be brief. Some things I consider game breaking exploits, and wouldn’t consider a run using them to be valid. Some I consider shady, but valid. and others I consider perfectly legit. I don’t expect anyone to agree with my opinions nor do I expect them to at all be community standards.

To be truthful, I have been discouraged recently in going for record attempts because no matter what we do, someone will always be willing to exploit harder than I am. It’s not fun to work your kitten off for a record video only to have it trumped in 3 days because someone was willing to glitch a boss or go outside the map. If the community standard is that stuff is OK, so be it, but I don’t have any desire to participate in it in that case.

So here is my short list of common exploits and how I label them. Black are things I consider definite exploits that shouldn’t count for records. Grey is valid but shady. White is OK

Black

Using flowers, or positioning, to glitch a boss so that it either doesn’t attack at all, or so you can hit it, but it cannot hit you.
Going outside the map to skip things using blinks, portals or consumables.
Using blinks to bug animations for fiery great sword/bear form. Anet’s stance on animation graphical-only glitches is clear: they are an exploit. So an animation glitch that has a broken in game effect is bullkitten. It is basically a double abuse because you’re breaking the game to make an imbalanced, unintended mechanic even more imbalanced.

grey

Using consumables to trivialize encounters aka Ash Legion Kits prenerf in Dredge or Spikey Fruit vs. Bjarl or the Lovers. Spikey Fruit is only still functional in dungeons because Hrouda didn’t know they existed when he removed Dam Debris, and he is no long in a position to do anything about them now. I list these as grey because they are consumables being used for the specific functon they are intended to be used in rather than used in ways as oppose to, say, gem store Flowers.
Staying inside a map, but using “clever” routes to skip things. The dredge jump is currently on the darker side of grey. the SE path 3 bridge ledge (which actually loses you time) is on the lighter side. Since you’re not going outside the map, and not using a consumable, I am OK with these types for records even if they are shady

white

Fiery greatsword rush/bear form against a wall/corner – the big debate. I am in the middle ground between HC and rT on this. Using a blink, to me, is clearly an exploit. Arguing that it isn’t is ridiculous. And I feel the mechanic itself is broken and needs to be fixed, but that said, to take advantage of it without a blink requires positioning and timing, which are both skill based. So I am not opposed to record runs using it so long as there are no blinks used. Additionally, having an ele using the FGS rush isn’t even optimal for all dungeon records, only the ones with time gates that allows for fire field Might stacks to be used without costing the run time. So I don;t think it is AS BAD as HC, but I don’t think anything goes like rT feels is right.
Fire ele powders pet whistles etc: don’t think these break the game at all, and they are only really useful in a handful of places. They are more for speed kills rather than speed clears and the two are hardly synonymous.

What about interrupting skills with a weaponswap? If those skills were supposed to be interruptable you could for example dodge out of them.

Swapping offhands is an exploit.

i think u can call that a game mechanic til anet will fix stuff like that, just like line of sight etc..

to make a record legit, in my opinion all bosses and champs on your way should be killed (for example the gorilla boss arah p1). i dont understand why people skip him since he has a cool mechanic with the staff etc..
and if you are really good you will find ways to kill him really fast and no one will imitate it so easily.

stuff like arah jumping puzzles should be forbidden.

Contrary to popular belief; rT is actually pretty split between who is happy to do varying levels of exploits, and who is not willing to do any (in a speed run scenario). Many of our best players are much in the same boat as Nike, and would love to have the standard set for records which involves minimal, to no ‘exploits’. Some believe speed runs should be just that, a run where you try and complete it as fast as possible. On the other hand, there are those that believe they should be a display of a very high level of skill, with minimal game mechanic ‘abuse’.

However, this brings us back to the biggest problem that we face when we try to ‘regulate’ what is a legit, or non-legit speed run.

How do we decide what is an exploit, and what isn’t?

I think I speak for most people in [rT], when I say that it would be much more interesting to have records based on ‘who is better’, rather than ‘who has better exploits’. I’m sure some of you think this is pretty hilarious coming from the guild that is seen as exploiting everything, but it is how it is.

I have to say the things I enjoy watching the most about the record times are the simple but effective tactics like shadow refuge to skip half the spiders in malrona’s room in TAUP (Another unintended “exploit” HC have used lol).

dunno if that was an exploit, but I really liked that because it was so ballsy lol

the use of judge’s intervention and kittening throw bolas in the arah p1 record also blew my mind.

Yeah those are the things which are great to see in record attempts. But they clearly arent intended by the devs, which is why I think HC taking the high ground is a bit ironic just like Cookie said.

All the little tricks speedclears use are such incremental steps on the spectrum between “clever tactic” and “bannable exploit” that there’s really no way to make a hard and fast rule on it. Really just need a dang tribunal to vote on this crap.

When I first heard about fgs+flash I thought people used it like with double fiery whirl – you rush behind your target and flash in front of him so you move past him twice.

I don’t see whines about feedback doing 800k damage on a boss with perma quasi-protection or skill called ****** dealing 2 million damage on certain bosses.

This HC whines remind me of this vid, just replace badger with exploit and mushroom with fgs.