Guild Wars 2

Just wanted to chime in here that I’m not afraid of raiding. It’s simply not something I’m interested in doing in Guild Wars. The UI limitations make it really unappealing, after the customization of WoW, and nothing I’ve heard seems to indicate that the encounters are particularly fun. It seems like a poor fit, to me.

Not liking something does not mean a person is afraid of that thing.

lol its not that they are afraid, its just the typical gw2 player mentality "Faced with a challenge- give up ". They’ll try it once – get absolutely decimated and then go to the forums seeking nerfs – with pretty ironic reasoning.

For example: Didn’t bother reading a single post but I’m willing to put a bet down that there are several posts claiming that they don’t have the time to participate in raids….. yet have no issue spending multiple hours mindless zerging in a given day.

Long story short – average gw2 players can’t handle the thought of the possibility of failure

Halvorn.9831:

There is also those who can, but don’t care for that particular type of content. Or those who can but are not willing to accept the “environmental” consequences like waiting for a complete group, toxicity, requirement to join a guild etc. Or those who can but prefer “true” competitive gameplay. Or those that can but are not willing to follow one single min/max scheme. Or… Or… It is not true that those who don’t do raids are exclusively those who are not able to do them considering their abilities.

Sure. You have just described casuals (well, besides the PvPers)
Hint: being a casual does not mean you have no skills. Lot of current casuals are veterans and former hardcore players that found that their enjoyment of the game is now much more important than constantly proving to others how good they are. Especially since they are experienced enough to know, that most of those others do not really care about it anyway.

Hypairion.9210:

What i read is: i’m affraid because i don’t want to be bullied by evil elitists. I don’t want to change armor or build, etc etc. Plus the “i don’t want to wipe hours by hours”
But all of this was implied by Anet before HOT. It’s a challenging content after all. So, it’s made to challenge people, to force them (if they want to raid) out of their confort zone.

And? What’s your point? OP has asked a question, people are answering. You have just basically said that those answers are expected as a result of raids’ design, so i don’t understand why you seem to dislike them.

(though i find it funny that you think that “bullied by evil elitists” was part of Anet’s intentions for raids)

echo.2053:

lol its not that they are afraid, its just the typical gw2 player mentality "Faced with a challenge- give up ". They’ll try it once – get absolutely decimated and then go to the forums seeking nerfs – with pretty ironic reasoning.

I’ve not tried it once, I have no intention of trying it and I don’t want it to be nerfed.

By now though, I would like something terrible to happen to it.

Vayne.8563:

I’m replying to you because what I’m saying gainsays what’s your say. You’re claiming that people are just talking about elitism, but you know, it’s more than just elitism. It’s about having to have X build, X profession and until now, that’s really gone against what Guild Wars 2 has been about.

Could I run any path of Arah with 5 necros. I could. And not even five necros specced to death either.

This content CREATES that elitisim. People are calling it elitism, but it’s really not. It’s a requirement born of necessity that says you must play this way to win.

That’s a problem. It’s also why I replied to your post.

It’s normal that everything can’t be played equally in a game that’s mostly balanced around PvP. That being said, there’s a lot of leniency and pretty much every class has something decent to bring to a raid. Would you rather they don’t make any challenging content then?

the content is fine – hardcore and all, letting elitist rule the lfg in the game is not.

the problem is mixing people who “need” to get everything right all the time over and over and over again, vs people who just want to have a fun hardcore adventure – finishing with flying colors not necessary.

maybe the answer is making a super dooper face pooper hardcore raid mode in guilds only, so the elitists can leave lfg for the ‘non pros’, and keep their elitism out of public view.

the game isn’t the problem, the people who try to dominate the game with their elitist meta-philosophies is.

It’s normal that everything can’t be played equally in a game that’s mostly balanced around PvP. That being said, there’s a lot of leniency and pretty much every class has something decent to bring to a raid. Would you rather they don’t make any challenging content then?

I think that it’s fine when the game gives the option of playing challenging content, but there should always be less challenging alternatives to the same content, with the same rewards. The easier version can obviously offer a lesser amount of those rewards, so that the hard mode is the most efficient way of acquiring them, but the hard content should never be the only way of experiencing that content, nor the only way to acquire any rewards that might be of value to a player with no interest in the hard mode content itself.

hrmm, i just came up with a simple solution for the issue I point to….

why not make 2 modes of lfg – normal …and hardcore mode

this way new and casual players can easily find similar players, and the lfg won’t be flooded with “elite” requests. it used to work like that in diablo 2, and everyone played with players at their own skill levels – worked out great.

a system like that can easily sort out casual players vs the guys that wear tin foil hats. ^.^

Ricky.4706:

the content is fine – hardcore and all, letting elitist rule the lfg in the game is not.

the problem is mixing people who “need” to get everything right all the time over and over and over again, vs people who just want to have a fun hardcore adventure – finishing with flying colors not necessary.

maybe the answer is making a super dooper face pooper hardcore raid mode in guilds only, so the elitists can leave lfg for the ‘non pros’, and keep their elitism out of public view.

the game isn’t the problem, the people who try to dominate the game with their elitist meta-philosophies is.

Sadly not much that you write makes sense. Everyone has the same right to post in the LFG to find like-minded people to clear content with.

this way new and casual players can easily find similar players, and the lfg won’t be flooded with “elite” requests. it used to work like that in diablo 2, and everyone played with players at their own skill levels – worked out great.

The problem here is that if the content is the same either way, the “normal” LFG would likely find only groups with zero chance of actually completing the content, so “normal” players would almost exclusively use the “elite” LFG anyway, in hopes of being matched with people who know what they’re doing.

The only way to split the content is to actually give “normal” groups a chance of success.

DeceiverX.8361:

One word:

Elitism.

And this is why the game, which prospered so much at launch, didn’t feature any kind of “elite” or arbitrarily “difficult” content. And also part of why, HoT, an expansion featured as pleasing the “hardcore” crowd has failed in the eyes of a bulk majority of players when looking at sheer numbers.

Strictly speaking, not many people care. And those that do are likely too exclusive to not care about anyone not involved in their personal affairs.

This. A thousand times this.

cranos.5913:

Sadly not much that you write makes sense. Everyone has the same right to post in the LFG to find like-minded people to clear content with.

sadly it sounds like you lack comprehension. Everyone has the right to play the game without having elitism imposed on them.

Halvorn.9831:

I think that the discussion “casual” vs. “hardcode” does not do the population reality of this game (or any other game) justice. It divides the player base into those who can and therefore do and those who cannot.

That’s not how it is. There is also those who can, but don’t care for that particular type of content. Or those who can but are not willing to accept the “environmental” consequences like waiting for a complete group, toxicity, requirement to join a guild etc. Or those who can but prefer “true” competitive gameplay. Or those that can but are not willing to follow one single min/max scheme. Or… Or… It is not true that those who don’t do raids are exclusively those who are not able to do them considering their abilities.

I think this group of players is a large group. Maybe it is time to step away from the current black/white view, although it is obviously comfortable for some to simplify in that way.

I agree. I’m certainly a good enough player to succeed in raiding. Heck, I’m working on getting my 7th character into full ascended gear.

No, my reason is that the player base there just isn’t the kind of group I want to join.

DeceiverX.8361:

My response was simply for him to remove all of his armor and equip a level 0 white weapon and enter AC solo. He asked why he would waste his time. Obviously he wasn’t genuinely interested in the hard content.

This is remarkably astute. You’ve pinned down exactly what hardcore means, in reverse. Because that’s how hardcore-specific content is created, except instead of making the player less capable, they make the enemies more capable.

I love it!

The more and more I read about PUGs being bad (waiting and players leaving after wipes) the more and more I think that a DPS meter would actually HELP PUGs and casual players.

For example I remember joining a VG “PUG-ish” group just for fun (and shards). I think 50%+ were in a guild, all being new to raids and the DPS was just a NIGHTMARE. We phased VG rughly at the 5 minute mark. I wasn’t sure how to react.

I can totally understand why “experienced” players would rage quit at that point. I was saying that our DPS is way too low, but there was no real response to that. (Also green circle group failed from time to time too)

To not be a kitten I stayed for several more tries but it didn’t get any better. I also had no idea how to help in that case at all. I left the group after saying that I don’t think that we are getting anyway.

I mean what should you do in such a group? You could ask what equipment they have and what build they use sure. But how many of them would tell you the truth? And even if they have the perfect equipment and build maybe the execution is the problem? How do you see if someone is doing the right rotation during a fight if you don’t even play the profession yourself?

A DPS meter would help here a lot. See who is underperforming (remember that the required DPS isn’t that high), ask them if it’s the equipment, the build or the rotation and try to improve on that.

Now you might say that some groups would simply kick the ones who have the lowest DPS (of course considering their role and profession to some degree) and that it’s very toxic and elite and if you ask me that’s probably true. But maybe, just maybe the “good ones” who would normally instant leave might stay now and the ones who don’t underperform wouldn’t have to waste so much time.

And the players who get kicked? Well maybe, just maybe they have to improve? After all you don’t need the perfect equipment with the perfect build and the perfect execution you just have to meet the required DPS (and the utility depending on your profession).

Oh and very important, I know that the DPS isn’t the only thing. Your job in that fight and the buffs and utility skills you provide are all important too. That’s why I think seeing who is giving buffs and some more statistic besides the DPS meter would also be required.

So, what do you say? Am I totally wrong?

A DPS meter would help here a lot. See who is underperforming (remember that the required DPS isn’t that high), ask them if it’s the equipment, the build or the rotation and try to improve on that.

That’s just solving a symptom, not the problem. The problem is not that players are unaware of their own DPS, the problem is that they NEED a certain amount of DPS in order to pass the content. solve that and a DPS meter becomes irrelevant.

Whats meant by underperforming?
MMOs dont have any rules which states how players have to play.
Who would decide that someone was underperforming, and on what basis.
I havnt got the foggiest idea what my DPS is, nor do I care, nor is it anyone elses business.

i have a character that’s a pve beast – i pretty much do nose dives into hoards in dragon stand and do champs solo, can solo a whole heck of a lot in most parts of the game, and it’s hardly ascended – i have the build to handle a raid, i just don’t like playing with elitists, they are simply annoying, i don’t want to have to deal with their paranoia and fear of death. is that so wrong ?

i have a character that’s a pve beast – i pretty much do nose dives into hoards in dragon stand and do champs solo, can solo a whole heck of a lot in most parts of the game, and it’s hardly ascended – i have the build to handle a raid, i just don’t like playing with elitists, they are simply annoying, i don’t want to have to deal with their paranoia and fear of death. is that so wrong ?

The funny thing is, and keep in mind that I’m on your side here, but from the sounds of it they might want to keep you out of the raid anyway. It sounds like you have a pretty tough build, and maybe that would be useful as the tank, maybe not. If you can’t be the tank though, they will really hate you having any kind of defensive capabilities, you’re meant to be full glass. I’m not defending that, mind you, just relaying what I’ve been told by raiders on the matter.

cranos.5913:

Vayne.8563:

I’m replying to you because what I’m saying gainsays what’s your say. You’re claiming that people are just talking about elitism, but you know, it’s more than just elitism. It’s about having to have X build, X profession and until now, that’s really gone against what Guild Wars 2 has been about.

Could I run any path of Arah with 5 necros. I could. And not even five necros specced to death either.

This content CREATES that elitisim. People are calling it elitism, but it’s really not. It’s a requirement born of necessity that says you must play this way to win.

That’s a problem. It’s also why I replied to your post.

It’s normal that everything can’t be played equally in a game that’s mostly balanced around PvP. That being said, there’s a lot of leniency and pretty much every class has something decent to bring to a raid. Would you rather they don’t make any challenging content then?

There’s that word again…challenging content. Challenging to whom?

A 20 year old who grew up on computer games and does everything brilliantly, who lives in the US with a fast connection?

A person who’s older, not as experienced, with an older computer who lives in an area without great internet?

Challenging content isn’t a one sized fits all thing. Lupi isn’t a problem anymore for some people. And some people still can’t get past him…even if that sounds improbable to you.

I think every one at some point wants content to challenge them. The difference is, I don’t want content that challenges me that makes me rely on 9 other people. I like challenging jumping puzzles. I like SAB tribulation mode and most people would consider that challenging content.

I don’t see the challenge of raids as the kind of challenge I want. I don’t need to stay out of circles, while attacking, dodge, and casting a bunch of skills based on a memories pattern. It’s not my type of challenge.

My the same token, I love puzzles and brain teasers. That’s also a form of challenge.

I dislike giant arrows in stories telling me where to go like I cant’ figure it out. But I don’t like the type of challenge provided by raids, or even challenges like Liadri.

Everyone sees challenge in a different way.

Afraid? No, just old enough to know better.

I’m not casual or pro – I’m that middle ground that casuals think is skilled and pros just lump with the other ‘n00bs’. I was going to try raiding and I did ask about it but the requirements I was told were absolutely ridiculous – full ascended armor, weapons, and trinkets, build off metabattle site – no exceptions, dedicated ‘holy trinity’ type roles, 2-4 hours of uninterrupted free time, and pinpoint reflexes and timing. I quietly shuffled it into “pro content created to keep elitists quiet, not for me” after that. And hey, that’s fine, something for them to do but not anything I’m dumb enough to get involved with.

Ohoni.6057:

i have a character that’s a pve beast – i pretty much do nose dives into hoards in dragon stand and do champs solo, can solo a whole heck of a lot in most parts of the game, and it’s hardly ascended – i have the build to handle a raid, i just don’t like playing with elitists, they are simply annoying, i don’t want to have to deal with their paranoia and fear of death. is that so wrong ?

The funny thing is, and keep in mind that I’m on your side here, but from the sounds of it they might want to keep you out of the raid anyway. It sounds like you have a pretty tough build, and maybe that would be useful as the tank, maybe not. If you can’t be the tank though, they will really hate you having any kind of defensive capabilities, you’re meant to be full glass. I’m not defending that, mind you, just relaying what I’ve been told by raiders on the matter.

actually no, it’s a build that does a lot of effect triggering – very powerful offensive and defensive, i’m not going into it because it don’t want it to become meta or draw attention to it. lol

one of my hobbies is inventing builds, and you can do some very nice builds by combining traits, stats and runes / sigils to kick in extra bonuses. last thing we need is to give elitists ideas of extremely specific builds. “no, trust me the chicken bone is important!!”

Daddicus.6128:

DeceiverX.8361:

My response was simply for him to remove all of his armor and equip a level 0 white weapon and enter AC solo. He asked why he would waste his time. Obviously he wasn’t genuinely interested in the hard content.

This is remarkably astute. You’ve pinned down exactly what hardcore means, in reverse. Because that’s how hardcore-specific content is created, except instead of making the player less capable, they make the enemies more capable.

I love it!

Yet there are many people who love the difficulty of a challenge, such as a number of my real life friends who enjoy setting arbitrarily-difficult tasks to perform in video games, one of which being playing Dark Souls with no armor, bonfires, and no HUD. Some of them are now playing through the franchise now with four players on a single controller in what is a disjoint clusterkitten. It’s the same game they’ve played. The AI is nothing impressive or particularly demanding, either, especially for veterans of the series.

Frankly, if people want to have epic encounters against difficult AI’s with complex mechanics and intricate movesets with a high skill cap at the highest echelon of gear and play… they’re largely in the wrong genre of game, or again, are not doing it any more for the sake of a challenge but simply want a more difficult game, which is not a reasonable quest for this genre, especially when casual players account for a bulk majority of sales and drive profits.

If Anet really wants more raiders in GW2 they need a few things:

1) Better LFG/grouping tool – it needs to support squads at least.
2) “Story” mode raid difficulty – make the enrage timer longs, lower the mob HP, lower the mob damage and reduce the rewards appropriately.
3) Weekly raid bonus – something like kill one raid boss and get bonus obsidian shards or something, maybe a token you can trade a bunch in towards a raid weapon/armor skin.

Basically if Anet wants to have something that isn’t just the haves (have the ability, time and a group to raid) and have-nots (anyone without one of those three) then they need to provide the support structure for it.

I think SWTOR does it fairly well with it’s “Story mode” raids/operations which most players that can complete a dungeon/flashpoint should be able to complete with a little perseverance, even with the random group finder. Similarly, Hard and Nightmare in SWTOR provide steps up in difficulty that people can work and aspire towards and require a better understanding of their class and more teamwork to successfully complete.

Of course, this requires dev time and dev time requires money.

I prefer open world raids. Never been a fan of raiding from the horrible, elitism experiences in WoW. but that’s me, (and a bunch of others)but i gave it a go anyways. Best thing for raiding is finding the right guild. Which in itself kinda sucks having to rely on others to get your own personal set of legendary armor.(hate the way this is implemented) I’m going to look again one of these days for a raiding guild, because pugging with impatient randoms will most likely, as always destroy the pug and 1 by 1 people drop out after your almost done. (This was my experience right after launch of raids, btw) My guild had planned on raiding but as it turned out everyones hours were different and pugging was the only way to go. Getting 10 peeps all ready for an alloted amount of time just isn’t attractive for a lot of people it seems, but some people find a way to make it work for them.

actually no, it’s a build that does a lot of effect triggering – very powerful offensive and defensive, i’m not going into it because it don’t want it to become meta or draw attention to it. lol

one of my hobbies is inventing builds, and you can do some very nice builds by combining traits, stats and runes / sigils to kick in extra bonuses. last thing we need is to give elitists ideas of extremely specific builds. “no, trust me the chicken bone is important!!”

I’m not saying it’s not a good build, I’m just not sure the raids would want it. Basically, if you aren’t the tank, then any amount of toughness is a liability, at least in several of the fights, because it would draw agro away from the tank. Even if as an individual you can perform better than any of the other members, it would damage the strategies the way they’re designed. So maybe you could be the tank, but if you weren’t the tank and tried to do that, it could be trouble.

Again, I don’t think it necessarily should be that way, but that’s how it currently is. Personally, I do wish that the raids encouraged more experimentation and diversity, rather than insisting on certain compositions.

pepsis.5384:

(…) So, am i the only one?

No. ^^ My main is a Norn ranger / wannabe Warrior. She loves her GS/LB or GS/AA or GS/ A/T combos. Maybe Horn sometimes. ^^ She is so far from a druid mindset you can get. I’d loooove to play her in a raid (cause she would be a fierce raider, for sure :-) ), but all they are looking for is druids … bummer. My second main is a thief lady, mostly with DD/PP, or Staff/PP. That may be more suitable for raids right now.

I can understand that a raid requires certain professions and builds, but that would mean, I wouldnt have the same fun playing it. Why should I invest my precious (- very limited -) free-time in gaming if it would mean less fun than other parts of my life?

That said, I could see myself raiding one time … (with a group of like-minded, fun-loving peeps) … :-) But it should enhance, not choke my life.

ADDENDUM: … what really bugs me is the fact that Anet employed the real story masters for the raids (Bobby Stein, amongst others) and left us with sub par narrative design in the main game … the storyline in GW2 sucks since they started with their “Living Story/ Living World” concept and it hasnt improved in HoT either yet … why on Earth am I still lumbering around with these deadheads “Edge of Destiny 2.0”? Its simply an offence to people expecting good story content in GW2. And yet there is a great, interesting storyline in the raids all of a sudden! Bandits, Bloodstones, White Mantle, Mursaat! How many years did I wait to finally get this type of content! … but I cant play it. And I wouldnt enter a cleared wing either just to experience parts of this story / picking up what others left behind, because this is not how I view experiencing a story.

A good suggestion would be to open up a “story mode” for the raids. That would not only cater us story nerds, but also offer a way for ‘less experienced’ players to find their way into raids.

To reiterate what many others have said: I’m not afraid of raiding, I just can’t be bothered with it. I used to raid in WoW back in the day and spent a lot of time waiting for groups to form and a lot of time learning mechanics and progressing through raids and put up with the drama in guild that seems to inevitably come with raiding. I don’t have the time (or interest) for dealing with that any more.

That’s why I like GW2, it took the waiting out of playing you can drop in and find something to do any time.

Tahlie.4259:

So, I played GW2 when it first came out, and had a lot of fun with it — at first. Fractals rolled around, and they were fun, but you can only do the same thing so many times before it gets boring. So, I quit at about the beginning of Living Story season 1.

Flash forward a few years, and here I started playing again ~3 weeks ago. When I heard about new fractals, a raid, and all kinds of challenging content, I just had to come back! So, now I have an 80 Engineer and Elementalist (both fully geared out), I’ve been raiding in MMOs for upwards of 12 years, and all that — yet, to date, I’ve not even set foot inside the raid.

I’ve been listing myself in LFG for a week and a half or so, I’ve been asking around in chat, and so on. But, there’s just no one pugging a raid, or filling a spot, or any of that. And no guilds are recruiting that actually go into the raid.

So, what exactly is the issue? Is the raid in GW2 just one of the hardest in the genre or something, or are people just being silly?

Raiding was the main reason I came back to the game. : / And it doesn’t seem like I’ll even set foot in the raid any time soon.

I don’t think people are afraid of raids, but pugs can be kittens so mentally stable people without a raiding guild won’t even bother with raids. I pugged raids without any previous raiding experience and got every boss down, even Matt, but it required a lot of patience. It’s not that raiding guilds are generally better, there are some good players who pug raids, but they generally won’t rage quit after 2-3 failed attempts and are more chill.

I think a solution would be for arena net to implement some type of LFG where you queue up with people of your skill level, so new raiders can easily find groups and in a more relaxing environment for them to learn.

Tahlie.4259:

So, I played GW2 when it first came out, and had a lot of fun with it — at first. Fractals rolled around, and they were fun, but you can only do the same thing so many times before it gets boring. So, I quit at about the beginning of Living Story season 1.

Flash forward a few years, and here I started playing again ~3 weeks ago. When I heard about new fractals, a raid, and all kinds of challenging content, I just had to come back! So, now I have an 80 Engineer and Elementalist (both fully geared out), I’ve been raiding in MMOs for upwards of 12 years, and all that — yet, to date, I’ve not even set foot inside the raid.

I’ve been listing myself in LFG for a week and a half or so, I’ve been asking around in chat, and so on. But, there’s just no one pugging a raid, or filling a spot, or any of that. And no guilds are recruiting that actually go into the raid.

So, what exactly is the issue? Is the raid in GW2 just one of the hardest in the genre or something, or are people just being silly?

Raiding was the main reason I came back to the game. : / And it doesn’t seem like I’ll even set foot in the raid any time soon.

I have no problems with raids. Problem is only people who have done the raids from day 1 will be experienced enough to do it later on. New people coming in will get kicked, waste people’s time due to how long a raid ran and due to new people can’t get the BiS equipment requirements for raiding that people wants. And raiders wants a certain build type when raiding (PS War, Eternal Tempest, Chronotank…etc)….

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Absurdo.8309:

What have you found “abusive” from raiders? I lead pug groups every week. I have not encountered any abusive behavior.

Something like “Can you change your class?” or “Don’t use x trait here because Y is a lot better.” or even “We are looking for a warrior but you entered as a ranger. Change class or leave.” is extremely offensive in gw2.

Yeah how dare you have to work with your team in the most beneficial way instead of being selfish. They really are jerks for asking you to change a trait! next time they might ask you to go in zerker gear to optimize your dps too!

The one to Rule.2593:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Something like “Can you change your class?” or “Don’t use x trait here because Y is a lot better.” or even “We are looking for a warrior but you entered as a ranger. Change class or leave.” is extremely offensive in gw2.

Yeah how dare you have to work with your team in the most beneficial way instead of being selfish. They really are jerks for asking you to change a trait! next time they might ask you to go in zerker gear to optimize your dps too!

And there it is, a precise example of what we hate about the kind of people who raid. Heck, looking at the guy’s name “the one to rule” tells you everything you need to know about him. (shakes head)

redcomyn.4651:

The one to Rule.2593:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Something like “Can you change your class?” or “Don’t use x trait here because Y is a lot better.” or even “We are looking for a warrior but you entered as a ranger. Change class or leave.” is extremely offensive in gw2.

Yeah how dare you have to work with your team in the most beneficial way instead of being selfish. They really are jerks for asking you to change a trait! next time they might ask you to go in zerker gear to optimize your dps too!

And there it is, a precise example of what we hate about the kind of people who raid. Heck, looking at the guy’s name “the one to rule” tells you everything you need to know about him. (shakes head)

raids are team work, if you fail to understand that there are some traits and gear more usefull to your party, then you’re a pretty selfish player.

Yep. Some of the people in this thread are the reason so many other do not raid.

thres are already a meter available for those that need it, It does destroy the principles of Guild wars, but those who need this kind of thing will always find a way of simplifying the fight to a degree where it matches a pattern they are used to. For e.g rather than adapting strategy to match the builds /players they force (literally) the players into a trinity-like mold. this is why i don’t raid at the moment, this approach is old fashioned, dull witted and stopped being fun after the first decade.

This is the real issue with Raiding, not that the content is hard, its that many are playing it as if they are still playing WOW.

Quasar.1756:

Question, I mean no sarcasm here, but how do ppl know certain builds do more or less

dps than others if dps meters are illegal. Doesn’t this type of ideology destroy the core

principle of not having a “holy trinity” in gw2. Any reply would be appreciated….ty

I believe that dps meters that do not read the memory are allowed. There’s one that calculates dps based on visually reading your combat log iirc. That and there’s a lot of theorycrafters crunching numbers for this stuff in most games.

The one to Rule.2593:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Absurdo.8309:

What have you found “abusive” from raiders? I lead pug groups every week. I have not encountered any abusive behavior.

Something like “Can you change your class?” or “Don’t use x trait here because Y is a lot better.” or even “We are looking for a warrior but you entered as a ranger. Change class or leave.” is extremely offensive in gw2.

Yeah how dare you have to work with your team in the most beneficial way instead of being selfish. They really are jerks for asking you to change a trait! next time they might ask you to go in zerker gear to optimize your dps too!

The realty is 1 player designates themselves as a leader (good) but some try to force people to change their build to match a single players vision (bad) A great team manager adapts the team strategy to match the opponent, a bad leader tries to create 6.4 dps/1.9 tanks etc etc. Worse still, a bad manager threatens to boot someone if their build doesn’t match a preconceived idea.

vesica tempestas.1563:

The realty is 1 player designates themselves as a leader (good) but some try to force people to change their build to match a single players vision (bad) A great team manager adapts the team strategy to match the opponent, a bad leader tries to create 6.4 dps/1.9 tanks etc etc. Worse still, a bad manager threatens to boot someone if their build doesn’t match a preconceived idea.

Then by all means practice what you preach and create your own team, I’ll be thrilled to join with blue gear and hodge podge picked traits.

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

The realty is 1 player designates themselves as a leader (good) but some try to force people to change their build to match a single players vision (bad) A great team manager adapts the team strategy to match the opponent, a bad leader tries to create 6.4 dps/1.9 tanks etc etc. Worse still, a bad manager threatens to boot someone if their build doesn’t match a preconceived idea.

Then by all means practice what you preach and create your own team, I’ll be thrilled to join with blue gear and hodge podge picked traits.

This is exactly the attitude what i’m talking about, Gear is largely the same across the player base, give or take a couple %. the ‘Blue Gear’ comment is indicative of a learned behaviour that has got nothing to do with GW and comes from a design philosophy from another game.

vesica tempestas.1563:

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

The realty is 1 player designates themselves as a leader (good) but some try to force people to change their build to match a single players vision (bad) A great team manager adapts the team strategy to match the opponent, a bad leader tries to create 6.4 dps/1.9 tanks etc etc. Worse still, a bad manager threatens to boot someone if their build doesn’t match a preconceived idea.

Then by all means practice what you preach and create your own team, I’ll be thrilled to join with blue gear and hodge podge picked traits.

This is exactly the attitude what i’m talking about, Gear is largely the same across the player base, give or take a couple %. the ‘Blue Gear’ comment is indicative of a learned behaviour that has got nothing to do with GW and comes from a design philosophy from another game.

cool deal so you have no qualms with my choice. lets formt hat group

The player community is not trained (by the game) to be cooperative. GW2 does not encourage players to be dependant on team play. “Roles” do not exist. Everyone plays solo; even in a team. This result in far more selfishness than games with dependant “roles” have.

GW2 needs super-elite trait lines that force team dependency in order to break away from “Elitist” problems. Roles create demand for specific professions resulting in more flexibility on who fills that role.

It is a very interesting balance problem. GW2 already has a history of profession preference; old dungeons.

Make more content requiring more extreme roles. Raids are a step with a small amount of role dependency. Go further! Spread role dependency everywhere.

Ps
Roles are not professions!

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

The realty is 1 player designates themselves as a leader (good) but some try to force people to change their build to match a single players vision (bad) A great team manager adapts the team strategy to match the opponent, a bad leader tries to create 6.4 dps/1.9 tanks etc etc. Worse still, a bad manager threatens to boot someone if their build doesn’t match a preconceived idea.

Then by all means practice what you preach and create your own team, I’ll be thrilled to join with blue gear and hodge podge picked traits.

This is exactly the attitude what i’m talking about, Gear is largely the same across the player base, give or take a couple %. the ‘Blue Gear’ comment is indicative of a learned behaviour that has got nothing to do with GW and comes from a design philosophy from another game.

cool deal so you have no qualms with my choice. lets formt hat group

Sry bud, GW raiding is designed for groups that know each other. Bring the player not the meter.

vesica tempestas.1563:

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

The realty is 1 player designates themselves as a leader (good) but some try to force people to change their build to match a single players vision (bad) A great team manager adapts the team strategy to match the opponent, a bad leader tries to create 6.4 dps/1.9 tanks etc etc. Worse still, a bad manager threatens to boot someone if their build doesn’t match a preconceived idea.

Then by all means practice what you preach and create your own team, I’ll be thrilled to join with blue gear and hodge podge picked traits.

This is exactly the attitude what i’m talking about, Gear is largely the same across the player base, give or take a couple %. the ‘Blue Gear’ comment is indicative of a learned behaviour that has got nothing to do with GW and comes from a design philosophy from another game.

cool deal so you have no qualms with my choice. lets formt hat group

Sry bud, GW raiding is designed for groups that know each other. Bring the player not the meter.

I’m not your bud, Brah

Whoa whoa whoa, weren’t you just going on about how a leader should just be able to to “adapt” to the situation? LOL wheather you know me or not does not matter. Just go ahead and adapt – put your ecto where your fingers are

GW2 needs super-elite trait lines that force team dependency in order to break away from “Elitist” problems. Roles create demand for specific professions resulting in more flexibility on who fills that role.

No.

It just needs to accept that “super role-oriented” gameplay is not gameplay that GW2 should have. There can be individual roles to perform, but they should be very flexible to enter into, less reliant on build and more reliant on the desire to take on that role.

I was discussing this in the “Easy mode raid” thread, but it would be nice if at bosses like VG and Gorseval where they focus on the guy with the highest toughness, if there were a shrine of some kind outside it, that would apply a single +200 Toughness buff on a single character per run, perhaps even higher, to allow for almost any character to choose to be the tank, regardless of his own gearing, or the gearing of the rest of the group. Or just make it a straight up “agro buff” that has nothing to do with Toughness.

I’m very much in favor of mechanics that use bundles or buffs to control the rolls you play, where any character can pick any role and be handed the tools needed to perform that role, rather than requiring roles that require you to build your character to that role.

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

The realty is 1 player designates themselves as a leader (good) but some try to force people to change their build to match a single players vision (bad) A great team manager adapts the team strategy to match the opponent, a bad leader tries to create 6.4 dps/1.9 tanks etc etc. Worse still, a bad manager threatens to boot someone if their build doesn’t match a preconceived idea.

Then by all means practice what you preach and create your own team, I’ll be thrilled to join with blue gear and hodge podge picked traits.

This is exactly the attitude what i’m talking about, Gear is largely the same across the player base, give or take a couple %. the ‘Blue Gear’ comment is indicative of a learned behaviour that has got nothing to do with GW and comes from a design philosophy from another game.

cool deal so you have no qualms with my choice. lets formt hat group

Sry bud, GW raiding is designed for groups that know each other. Bring the player not the meter.

I’m not your bud, Brah

Whoa whoa whoa, weren’t you just going on about how a leader should just be able to to “adapt” to the situation? LOL wheather you know me or not does not matter. Just go ahead and adapt – put your ecto where your fingers are

oh please take the attitude to WOW its really not needed here. if you bothered to comprehend you would have been aware that i was referring to the player and not the build. A player who uses and Aura and loses 100 dps is just as viable. A player that loses 100 dps because they prefer more endurance and ability to dodge is viable. Most things are viable in GW, what matters is skill and communication.

unless toughness is de-nerfed, then….yeah.

vesica tempestas.1563:

The one to Rule.2593:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Absurdo.8309:

What have you found “abusive” from raiders? I lead pug groups every week. I have not encountered any abusive behavior.

Something like “Can you change your class?” or “Don’t use x trait here because Y is a lot better.” or even “We are looking for a warrior but you entered as a ranger. Change class or leave.” is extremely offensive in gw2.

Yeah how dare you have to work with your team in the most beneficial way instead of being selfish. They really are jerks for asking you to change a trait! next time they might ask you to go in zerker gear to optimize your dps too!

The realty is 1 player designates themselves as a leader (good) but some try to force people to change their build to match a single players vision (bad) A great team manager adapts the team strategy to match the opponent, a bad leader tries to create 6.4 dps/1.9 tanks etc etc. Worse still, a bad manager threatens to boot someone if their build doesn’t match a preconceived idea.

Not necessarily. Adapting strategy to match the opponent without ensuring that you have the tools to carry the strategy to victory is not great management. If the tools necessary for successfully overcoming the opponwnt are readily available, choosing to not use them is bad, strategically and tactically.

Ohoni.6057:

actually no, it’s a build that does a lot of effect triggering – very powerful offensive and defensive, i’m not going into it because it don’t want it to become meta or draw attention to it. lol

one of my hobbies is inventing builds, and you can do some very nice builds by combining traits, stats and runes / sigils to kick in extra bonuses. last thing we need is to give elitists ideas of extremely specific builds. “no, trust me the chicken bone is important!!”

I’m not saying it’s not a good build, I’m just not sure the raids would want it. Basically, if you aren’t the tank, then any amount of toughness is a liability, at least in several of the fights, because it would draw agro away from the tank. Even if as an individual you can perform better than any of the other members, it would damage the strategies the way they’re designed. So maybe you could be the tank, but if you weren’t the tank and tried to do that, it could be trouble.

Again, I don’t think it necessarily should be that way, but that’s how it currently is. Personally, I do wish that the raids encouraged more experimentation and diversity, rather than insisting on certain compositions.

exactly! that’s the point, it’s dominated by a “play this way or don’t play at all” which goes against the whole grain of what gw started to be, play it your way. we were playing it our way, and that never got boring because there are a million different ways to skin a quaggan. not anymore though, elitism pigeonholes builds and anet caters to it. – solution, don’t even bother with raids…..i’m finding myself not even bothering with a lot of new things because of this actually. I’m down to a very few things i like to play in gw2, which is sad really because there really is so much to do – if we put elitism and the rules it follows in its place – which is not in my face! ( had to put that cuz it rhymed lol )

again, elitism has it’s place, but it’s become the gw2 theme. heavy grind, stressful goals, and elitism. it’s one thing to play competitively, it’s quite another to simply have fun playing and developing your character / story.

want 1 mastery point ? explore every thing in almost every part of the game or collect these items after you play every part of this 5 part adventure flawlessly, or get the highest possible rating possible for another mastery point….and you need mastery points to buy better stats. if that’s not elitism, i don’t know what is.

vesica tempestas.1563:

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

echo.2053:

vesica tempestas.1563:

The realty is 1 player designates themselves as a leader (good) but some try to force people to change their build to match a single players vision (bad) A great team manager adapts the team strategy to match the opponent, a bad leader tries to create 6.4 dps/1.9 tanks etc etc. Worse still, a bad manager threatens to boot someone if their build doesn’t match a preconceived idea.

Then by all means practice what you preach and create your own team, I’ll be thrilled to join with blue gear and hodge podge picked traits.

This is exactly the attitude what i’m talking about, Gear is largely the same across the player base, give or take a couple %. the ‘Blue Gear’ comment is indicative of a learned behaviour that has got nothing to do with GW and comes from a design philosophy from another game.

cool deal so you have no qualms with my choice. lets formt hat group

Sry bud, GW raiding is designed for groups that know each other. Bring the player not the meter.

I’m not your bud, Brah

Whoa whoa whoa, weren’t you just going on about how a leader should just be able to to “adapt” to the situation? LOL wheather you know me or not does not matter. Just go ahead and adapt – put your ecto where your fingers are

oh please take the attitude to WOW its really not needed here. if you bothered to comprehend you would have been aware that i was referring to the player and not the build. A player who uses and Aura and loses 100 dps is just as viable. A player that loses 100 dps because they prefer more endurance and ability to dodge is viable. Most things are viable in GW, what matters is skill and communication.

Put your ecto where your fingers are than. I should be able to randomly select traits because…..viable

LULZ from our little convo you seem to be switching your points rather often. It started off the leader should adapt to the playstyle rather than force, then to requiring to know party members and now to a build thats only 100 dps off meta when we both know thats not even close to the dps difference for the avg gw2 player