IBM PC XT 4.77mhz w/turbo oc@ 8mhz 640kb windows 3.1 hayes 56k seagate 20 meg HD mda@720x350 pixels
Why are people so afraid of raiding?
Raid Leader: Guys, this raid boss is Rock. We gonna need to bring Paper. Food check! Let go.
After 30 mins of wiping
Raid Leader: Okay, this is not working. Everyone pinged weapon and chest piece so I can make sure we all have Paper.
Casual 1: [Scissors Weapon][Scissors Armor]
Raid Leader: Hey Casual 1, you are bring scissor. Do you have Paper armors/weapons or a Paper set up.
Casual 1: Well, this is how I want to play my class.
Raid Leader: It is fine if this is how you want to play your class. But we need Paper. So we gonna kick you for a actual Paper set up.Casual 1 got kicked. Raid Leader went to LFG for a Paper set up and then proceeded to kill raid boss in 1-2 tries.
Meanwhile, Casual 1 logged on his GuildWars 2 forums and complained how toxic the raiding community is. To him, raid community is a bunch of elitist jerks, that does not appreciate his marvelous build.
A fabulous example of elitism: Using “casual” as an insult. Thank you for affirming many of the opinions in this thread.
If anyone had the “right” to be insulted in this thread, it’s the so-called elitists. They’ve been called toxic and abusers, with little substantiation.
And casual really wasn’t used an insult there. Surely both casuals and elitists can be toxic. I’ve yet to see any substantial showing of elitist toxicity.
“raids” in general in the MMO world have a long-standing bad reputation (a lot of it deserved), and so bringing raids to GW2 carries a lot of baggage.
Also, a lot of people specifically liked this game because it avoided the “raid or get out” mentality of many big-name MMOs.
That’s why i liked GW2 – specifically “because” it didn’t have raids. I know plenty others did too. I raided a heap in other other games, thousands of hours, for years and years, wiping, learning, clearing and killing. The neverending gear treadmill, etc, etc. It’s not that I can’t raid or am lacking skill.
I got sick of it. And now its arrived in Guild Wars 2. Like some plague. As i had long feared.
I’m just ignoring it. I really hope it just dies and goes away tbh. I don’t have an issue with raids in gerneral, but rather with them in GW2. Just kitten off. Hopefully the constrained resources ANet seems to have will just see the raid team moved elsewhere and raids quietly die. If we had to lose Legendaries, we can lose raids – even less do raids.
Pre-Ordered HoT | Recently started to get what I paid for – may spend $$$
“raids” in general in the MMO world have a long-standing bad reputation (a lot of it deserved), and so bringing raids to GW2 carries a lot of baggage.
Also, a lot of people specifically liked this game because it avoided the “raid or get out” mentality of many big-name MMOs.
That’s why i liked GW2 – specifically “because” it didn’t have raids. I know plenty others did too. I raided a heap in other other games, thousands of hours, for years and years, wiping, learning, clearing and killing. The neverending gear treadmill, etc, etc. It’s not that I can’t raid or am lacking skill.
I got sick of it. And now its arrived in Guild Wars 2. Like some plague. As i had long feared.
I’m just ignoring it. I really hope it just dies and goes away tbh. I don’t have an issue with raids in gerneral, but rather with them in GW2. Just kitten off. Hopefully the constrained resources ANet seems to have will just see the raid team moved elsewhere and raids quietly die. If we had to lose Legendaries, we can lose raids – even less do raids.
I’ll quote myself here:
There’s a lot of hate towards raids in this thread. I want to share my personal experience.
Raids (and currently, SAB) are the only things bringing me back to guild wars 2. I would not play anymore if map metas or fractals were the only things to do in pve.
I like the combat in Guild wars 2. I like dodging. I like moving and attacking at the same time. I like not having to worry about 4 rows of spells.
Raids epitomize that kind of combat.
I understand that some people don’t like raids, for some reason or another. I just ask that you don’t destroy them. That’s why people like me comment on these threads. If raids disappeared (or if they stopped making them) I would quit guild wars 2.
And for what it’s worth, I’ve never seen the kind of elitism lambasted in this thread. Just yesterday, I formed a matthias pug group: “LFM MATT, exp, play 2+ classes.” We beat it after 45 minutes. And for several members it was their first kill.
So please don’t destroy raids. I understand if you don’t like them. Luckily, 95% of guild wars is not raids. You still have fractals, dungeons, map metas, world bosses, pvp, and wvw to enjoy.
Basically: don’t make arguments based on the time involved to develop the feature, because you have no idea how long it would actually take.
But that doesn’t mean my estimate was wrong, just that she would prefer we not make estimates. Well I’m sorry, I do prefer to make estimates based on what I know, and if they don’t want me making estimates then they need to provide better information.
I’ll also remind you that any of you who say “they shouldn’t do this because it would take too long” are doing the exact same thing.
You have zero idea “how big the jar is”. All you have is estimates you pulled out of thin air that you, for some reason, are assuming to be correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem
If you can make up numbers and pretend they’re 100% accurate for the sake of your argument, I can do the exact same thing and both arguments will be equally as valid.
That’s not how it works. That’s not how any of this works.
Impressive, effortful, deserving of better rewards.
None of which apply to raiding.
I just have to interject here for a sec. Time gated is not the same as skill gated. Changing something from a skill gate to a time gate devalues the reward as well as makes it a lot less exclusive, which devalues it even more.
That presumes that the skill gate has value in the first place, that the exclusivity of the reward has value. It does not. A skill-gated reward has no justification to be superior to a time-gated one, they are all just items acquired while enjoying an entertainment product, not the salary for a job that is actually providing a public good.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
That presumes that the skill gate has value in the first place, that the exclusivity of the reward has value. It does not. A skill-gated reward has no justification to be superior to a time-gated one, they are all just items acquired while enjoying an entertainment product, not the salary for a job that is actually providing a public good.
You really misunderstand there. The value of an item is how it’s viewed by the community. For raiders in general skill gated stuff has more value than stuff you can just grind out in easy boring content. The same goes for exclusivity, the perceived value is much higher regardless of how valuable something actually is.
So yes, it does matter. You need to be able to at least understand both sides of the argument if you want to actually start making sense.
That presumes that the skill gate has value in the first place, that the exclusivity of the reward has value. It does not. A skill-gated reward has no justification to be superior to a time-gated one, they are all just items acquired while enjoying an entertainment product, not the salary for a job that is actually providing a public good.
You really misunderstand there. The value of an item is how it’s viewed by the community. For raiders in general skill gated stuff has more value than stuff you can just grind out in easy boring content. The same goes for exclusivity, the perceived value is much higher regardless of how valuable something actually is.
So yes, it does matter. You need to be able to at least understand both sides of the argument if you want to actually start making sense.
Exclusivity matters in the real world because of limited resources. Things that are rare are, by definition, more valuable because of it. However, GW2 is not real life. The only limits on any given good in game are the limits developers place on them. What you are arguing is to prevent a large portion of the playerbase from being able to obtain items just so you can feel special about having them. This is wrong, and it’s proof that, as the “Run AC with no armor and a white weapon” comment has demonstrated on this forum- and I believe this thread- that a number of raiders don’t really care about hard content. They just want a way to put everyone else below themselves. What you are saying here is that it’s not good enough that YOU have something, you have to take it away from others to feel happy about it.
That’s only what you think. Because you like raids.
No. Completing more difficult content will always be more impressive- and more difficult- then slogging through easy content for a couple weeks longer.
I don’t find them impressive at all, and don’t think that a fact that you like a certain gamemode and i don’t makes that gamemode better or any more deserving of rewards.Were you reading Ohoni’s post, or their strawman representation by other posters? Because it seems the latter.
Not when I’m making a reasonable estimate, which is the only thing ANY of us are capable of from outside the company. Someone with a name like “Fermi” should know that.
Except it’s impossible to make a “reasonable estimate” when you have a grand total of 0 information to base it on.
Ah, but we have considerably more than zero informations. We, for example, know that one wing takes around 4 months to make, and most of that is creating assets. Yes, those assets that the easy mode would not need to create. Most of the remaining work wouldn’t need to be created from scratch either.
Sure, it wouldn’t take hours, like Ohoni claims, but saying that it would take many months is an even more ridiculous claim.
Except, based on the information we have, they’re both completely equally valid.
*
Its good then that they dont have to recreate the raids its fine tuning only.
And you know that… how? Oh that’s right, you don’t.*
hey haven’t “gotten back” to you because you’ve never actually asked them anything, and they have never told you they would check that up. Unlike it happened with Ohoni.
Ohoni isn’t some special snowflake, they’re not going to just go ahead and “get back” to him; read the quote above. Gaile never even promised any information. All she said is that she’d look into it and, if they had information that they don’t mind giving out, they’d do so.
And the difference between your and Ohoni’s claims is that, while both are ridiculous estimates, yours is not only more ridiculous, but you actually know it.
They’re equally ridiculous, seeing how they both have the same amount of information to back them up.
Anyways, on the whole “raids are toxic thing”, my experience has been the exact opposite. I’ve had maybe one person with a toxic/bossy/what have you attitude in a pug raid thus far and he got kicked. Most people just want to get onto TS or w/e, get the boss done, and have a decent time
But we do know thats all it takes if they implement it as we have asked, the same raid the same encounters the same skills from bosses.
Just less punishing, uping the enrage timer to 2 hours simply fine tuning, making the attacks do less damage more fine tuning.
The same goes for exclusivity, the perceived value is much higher regardless of how valuable something actually is.
That’s not perceived value, that’s actual value. And it’s not a result of people perceiving exclusive rewards to be better, but exclusivity decreasing supply well below demand.
Original Halloween skins for example are more valuable than any raid gear. Not because they were hard to get (because they really weren’t), but because they aren’t available now and the supply is limited.
So, if raid gear was accessible through easy mode, but got removed from both modes after a week, it would actually become way more valuable than it is now, even though the skill difficulty to obtain it would have been lower.
You need to be able to at least understand both sides of the argument if you want to actually start making sense.
You should start with following that advice yourself.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Exclusivity matters in the real world because of limited resources. Things that are rare are, by definition, more valuable because of it. However, GW2 is not real life. The only limits on any given good in game are the limits developers place on them. What you are arguing is to prevent a large portion of the playerbase from being able to obtain items just so you can feel special about having them. This is wrong, and it’s proof that, as the “Run AC with no armor and a white weapon” comment has demonstrated on this forum- and I believe this thread- that a number of raiders don’t really care about hard content. They just want a way to put everyone else below themselves. What you are saying here is that it’s not good enough that YOU have something, you have to take it away from others to feel happy about it.
I’m not taking away anything from anyone. What you guys are arguing is the same as saying, “why can’t I get the legendary pvp backpiece in hotjoin?” or “why can’t I get the fractal backpiece by only doing levels below 10?” It would take me more time to get it but I’m entitled to this reward even though I don’t like pvp/fractals at all.
In fact it’s worse than that. What you’re asking is to devote the resources currently allocated to make that content to go to something entirely different. “Please stop making updates to ranked” or “don’t bother fixing high lvl fractals”, devote your resources only to what I like to play.
In fact, while we’re at it, you guys do realise the new legendary weapons are exclusive to open world content, right? I can’t get it without getting suicidal tendencies from DS.
The same goes for exclusivity, the perceived value is much higher regardless of how valuable something actually is.
That’s not perceived value, that’s actual value. And it’s not a result of people perceiving exclusive rewards to be better, but exclusivity decreasing supply well below demand.
Original Halloween skins for example are more valuable than any raid gear. Not because they were hard to get (because they really weren’t), but because they aren’t available now and the supply is limited.
So, if raid gear was accessible through easy mode, but got removed from both modes after a week, it would actually become way more valuable than it is now, even though the skill difficulty to obtain it would have been lower.
You need to be able to at least understand both sides of the argument if you want to actually start making sense.
You should start with following that advice yourself.
Thanks for quoting out of context. Skill gated vs time gated has nothing to do with how much something costs. I’m talking about the perceived value by players, not actual cost on the tp. If legendary armor was freely available for everyone to get the actual prices of whatever tradeable goods we need would prob be much higher, but that has nothing to do with this.
Good try though.
Exclusivity matters in the real world because of limited resources. Things that are rare are, by definition, more valuable because of it. However, GW2 is not real life. The only limits on any given good in game are the limits developers place on them. What you are arguing is to prevent a large portion of the playerbase from being able to obtain items just so you can feel special about having them. This is wrong, and it’s proof that, as the “Run AC with no armor and a white weapon” comment has demonstrated on this forum- and I believe this thread- that a number of raiders don’t really care about hard content. They just want a way to put everyone else below themselves. What you are saying here is that it’s not good enough that YOU have something, you have to take it away from others to feel happy about it.
I’m not taking away anything from anyone. What you guys are arguing is the same as saying, “why can’t I get the legendary pvp backpiece in hotjoin?” or “why can’t I get the fractal backpiece by only doing levels below 10?” It would take me more time to get it but I’m entitled to this reward even though I don’t like pvp/fractals at all.
In fact it’s worse than that. What you’re asking is to devote the resources currently allocated to make that content to go to something entirely different. “Please stop making updates to ranked” or “don’t bother fixing high lvl fractals”, devote your resources only to what I like to play.
In fact, while we’re at it, you guys do realise the new legendary weapons are exclusive to open world content, right? I can’t get it without getting suicidal tendencies from DS.
Yes but you can do open world with any gear any class any traits, Raids not so much
Yes but you can do open world with any gear any class any traits, Raids not so much
What’s your point? All I’m saying is that changing from a skill gated reward system to a time gated reward system will devalue the rewards in the eyes of the current raiders.
You have people on 2 ends of the spectrum. To have a somewhat actual discussion about this you have got to acknowledge this fact. I’m not against other ways to get legendary armor, I’m not even necessarily against an easy mode for raids, but straight up denying that it’s true won’t get you anywhere.
The options aren’t necessarily please one group or the other. There are options in between, but it will require a reward rebalance for “hardmode” because just timegated with the already fairly lackluster rewards won’t cut it.
Or of course you could keep bickering back and forth about who gets to play with the toy and demonize raiders as “elitist kittens” if that makes you feel any better.
Yes but you can do open world with any gear any class any traits, Raids not so much
What’s your point? All I’m saying is that changing from a skill gated reward system to a time gated reward system will devalue the rewards in the eyes of the current raiders.
You have people on 2 ends of the spectrum. To have a somewhat actual discussion about this you have got to acknowledge this fact. I’m not against other ways to get legendary armor, I’m not even necessarily against an easy mode for raids, but straight up denying that it’s true won’t get you anywhere.
The options aren’t necessarily please one group or the other. There are options in between, but it will require a reward rebalance for “hardmode” because just timegated with the already fairly lackluster rewards won’t cut it.
Or of course you could keep bickering back and forth about who gets to play with the toy and demonize raiders as “elitist kittens” if that makes you feel any better.
my point is no matter how bad you are you can get your legendary weapon by investing time with legendary armor you cant.
So your quip that legendary weapon was gated behind open world pve is moot that was my point
you have to take it away from others to feel happy about it.
Actually the side of this discussion asking for something to be taken away from someone is the side arguing for easier access to legendary armor.
Hardcore/Raiders have (or will when it is released) an armor set that has some degree of prestige by acting as a trophy proving one’s ability to complete the raid in its normal mode.
By asking that the raid armor be made available to those not completing the raid in its normal mode people are asking that the trophy aspect of raid armor be taken away from raiders.
Currently the raiders are not asking that anything be taken away from others.
For raiders in general skill gated stuff has more value than stuff you can just grind out in easy boring content.
Well that’s all well and good for them, but how they perceive a reward should not be used as justification for keeping it away from other players who would like to have it.
I’m not taking away anything from anyone. What you guys are arguing is the same as saying, “why can’t I get the legendary pvp backpiece in hotjoin?” or “why can’t I get the fractal backpiece by only doing levels below 10?” It would take me more time to get it but I’m entitled to this reward even though I don’t like pvp/fractals at all.
Yes, why not? Good questions all.
In fact it’s worse than that. What you’re asking is to devote the resources currently allocated to make that content to go to something entirely different. “Please stop making updates to ranked” or “don’t bother fixing high lvl fractals”, devote your resources only to what I like to play.
Nope, nobody’s talking about reducing the resources to anything, at least not at this point.
In fact, while we’re at it, you guys do realise the new legendary weapons are exclusive to open world content, right? I can’t get it without getting suicidal tendencies from DS.
Yes, and that should be fixed too. Good catch. But we’re talking about raids in this thread, so not really the point.
Hardcore/Raiders have (or will when it is released) an armor set that has some degree of prestige by acting as a trophy proving one’s ability to complete the raid in its normal mode.
By asking that the raid armor be made available to those not completing the raid in its normal mode people are asking that the trophy aspect of raid armor be taken away from raiders.
Currently the raiders are not asking that anything be taken away from others.
But they don’t need to ask for anything to be taken away from others because the item people already want is already not in their hands. It’s like saying that rich bankers aren’t asking to take anything away from poor people. And the non raiders aren’t asking to take anything away from raiders either, the raiders would get to keep their armor. You insist that they would be taking away “the feeling of exclusivity,” but that isn’t actually a thing, and if the raider has it, he has no right to have it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you have to take it away from others to feel happy about it.
Actually the side of this discussion asking for something to be taken away from someone is the side arguing for easier access to legendary armor.
Hardcore/Raiders have (or will when it is released) an armor set that has some degree of prestige by acting as a trophy proving one’s ability to complete the raid in its normal mode.
By asking that the raid armor be made available to those not completing the raid in its normal mode people are asking that the trophy aspect of raid armor be taken away from raiders.
Currently the raiders are not asking that anything be taken away from others.
And the same prestige could be achieved with titles instead not locking away gear with new functionality.
And the same prestige could be achieved with titles instead not locking away gear with new functionality.
Already done. To get titles you need to do somewhat hard achievements as a group. To get armor you need to poke boss to death and complete some open world events.
And the same prestige could be achieved with titles instead not locking away gear with new functionality.
Already done. To get titles you need to do somewhat hard achievements as a group. To get armor you need to poke boss to death and complete some open world events.
So then there is no problem in getting armor in a easier mode you still got your titles to show you did it the hard way.
you have to take it away from others to feel happy about it.
Actually the side of this discussion asking for something to be taken away from someone is the side arguing for easier access to legendary armor.
Hardcore/Raiders have (or will when it is released) an armor set that has some degree of prestige by acting as a trophy proving one’s ability to complete the raid in its normal mode.
By asking that the raid armor be made available to those not completing the raid in its normal mode people are asking that the trophy aspect of raid armor be taken away from raiders.
Currently the raiders are not asking that anything be taken away from others.
And the same prestige could be achieved with titles instead not locking away gear with new functionality.
I have suggested alternate rewards for high end content myself. I think that a tier of gear makes a poor choice.
(edited by Ashen.2907)
So then there is no problem in getting armor in a easier mode you still got your titles to show you did it the hard way.
Easy mode already exists. It is called “don’t go for the record time / no title achievements”.
because im super casual, and i like to set my own pace
and im unlucky with RNG rolls
mashing buttons for hours, for a small reward? no thanx
I’m not taking away anything from anyone. What you guys are arguing is the same as saying, “why can’t I get the legendary pvp backpiece in hotjoin?” or “why can’t I get the fractal backpiece by only doing levels below 10?”
No. It’s “why can’t i get pvp backpiece without getting past Ruby” and “Why can’t i get fractal one without runing Elite/Champion tier”. And the answer in both cases is “why, you can”. Easy mode Raids would be exactly the same.
It would take me more time to get it but I’m entitled to this reward even though I don’t like pvp/fractals at all.
You are entitled to nothing, really. Technically, looking at EULA you’re not even entitled to playing.
In fact, while we’re at it, you guys do realise the new legendary weapons are exclusive to open world content, right? I can’t get it without getting suicidal tendencies from DS.
Yeah, the new legendary weapons are bad in that regard, i fully agree. They should not be so dependant on rare HoT drops and map currencies.
Skill gated vs time gated has nothing to do with how much something costs.
Indeed.
I’m talking about the perceived value by players, not actual cost on the tp.
It’s the same. Legendary weapons are freely available and timegated, not skill-gated, and their value (perceived value) is all-time high.
In fact, their perceived worth is generally much, much higher than, say, Liadri mini, which was skillgated. Or than non-legendary raid exclusive skins for that matter.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
I am not afraid of raiding, I just don’t like how stressful it is, at all. I think its cool content especially as far as the narrative delivery in the instances is done as well as some of the mechanics on display.
However, after my brief experience with raiding when wing one was fresh, I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in doing raids myself. Not that I’d have the time for it either and the time I do have I’d rather spend doing things that are not stressful to me.
From my point of view…
- Unless you are doing a friend or guild run all ascended will be required most of the time by LFGs
- I can’t just go in with my class, my build, and do the best I can working with the team
- Adding to what was stated above, I need to be heavily invested into multi stat sets and perhaps even characters to fit the need of what is usually required by LFG teams
- There is little to no room for making mistakes (honest mistakes) with LFG groups and simply trying your best and listening to direction is not an option
My point being that unless you can afford (or have) multiple ascended sets, near expert experience with multiple classes, and are able to quickly learn and adapt within the LFG group in most cases you will not enjoy your raiding experience. As a casual player I don’t have the time, the riches, or the experience to bother with raids. I spend most of my time in World vs. World because that is what I love and raids really require an awful lot of PvE dedication to make yourself competitive.
It depend. For exemple, Druids, Chronomancer, PS Warrior, Herald and Tempest and need in all raid bosses with only 1 build good for all fight. You will always have a place in a raid as part of the best setup and will never have to change anything. One character, 1 gear, 1 setup. Might have to change trait or skill from time to time, but shouldn’t be a problem.
Reaper and Dragonhunter also have one setup/build that work for all boss. You might have to swap between GS and Hammer build, but that’s only 1 piece of equipment. They are popular in most boss and work great for all boss. Some pug composition might not want one of those from time to time at specific boss maybe because they lack something specific, but that should be rare if they know what they are talking about.
Thief and Engineer also can use one setup/build for all bosses and are great for all boss. You might have an harder time finding a place in some group because the thief bring nothing but DPS and the Engineer bring a bit of everything, but don’t excel in anything. They are popular in certain fight, but not all of them.
I agree with your point 1, which is ok if you ask me. But your point 2 and 3 only apply to certain specific situation, which Anet should work to fix. Most profession can do all bosses with 1 setup and most profession are popular. Of course we can’t control stupid pugs that will kick a profession because they have bad informations that will always exist.
As for point 4 I can’t really argue with that. I never got kicked from a pug group, but I consider myself a good player with experience so. But that’s a point against human nature, not the game. Did they asked for experienced? Are they jerk that didn’t ask for experienced but expected it? Did they explained something to you that you didn’t heard or understood and did that very mistake they explained because of that? Did they had a bad experience with a pug recently and kinda of kicked you from frustration?
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
Personally I think that raids should be able to be done by everyone. This doesn’t mean that a reward for a raid should be easy to obtain or that the raid itself should be easy. As it stands now though I feel like raids are mainly for the very dedicated PvE elite players with plentiful in-game currency and gear. Maybe I am wrong. I don’t feel like ArenaNet should make game modes with an “either or” mentality. If I spend a lot of time in World vs. World, I shouldn’t feel like other game modes are above my reach.
Most people only have a finite amount of time to spend during the day and ArenaNet doesn’t give players much convenience to multitask game modes. This being said, players paid for the full game, not just the specific mode they enjoy.
I disagree – I think it’s good to have hard content, as long as there is easy content to complete too. The idea being that once you master the easier content, you can progress on to the harder ones. So here, for example, you could master open world, then fractals, then raids. It’s ok that not everyone is immediately able to complete all content on day 1.
Personally I think that raids should be able to be done by everyone. This doesn’t mean that a reward for a raid should be easy to obtain or that the raid itself should be easy. As it stands now though I feel like raids are mainly for the very dedicated PvE elite players with plentiful in-game currency and gear. Maybe I am wrong. I don’t feel like ArenaNet should make game modes with an “either or” mentality. If I spend a lot of time in World vs. World, I shouldn’t feel like other game modes are above my reach.
Most people only have a finite amount of time to spend during the day and ArenaNet doesn’t give players much convenience to multitask game modes. This being said, players paid for the full game, not just the specific mode they enjoy.
I disagree – I think it’s good to have hard content, as long as there is easy content to complete too. The idea being that once you master the easier content, you can progress on to the harder ones. So here, for example, you could master open world, then fractals, then raids. It’s ok that not everyone is immediately able to complete all content on day 1.
Mastering open world will not get you ready for fractals and so on. Doing dungeons sure but open world is to easy a place to learn nothing.
Raids are a step up from the second most challenging content (probably fractals, or pocket raptors depends on what community you refer to) and there were signs of what to expect with some of the achievements with season 2 (migraine achievement). Same way people could expect a difficult open world with HoT. They released SW which had some annoying mobs that ripped through players but when you Zerg around these maps you learn nothing.
RP enthusiast
Easy mode already exists. It is called “don’t go for the record time / no title achievements”.
But what you call “easy mode” is not easy enough. There is a harder mode than just beating the content, but plenty of people seem to feel that an even easier mode would be better for them.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
honestly i think what kills people’s interest from raids is the vale guardian , that boss relies alot on luck it seems, and everyone whos beaten it claims the other raid bosses are a piece of cake compared to it
honestly i think what kills people’s interest from raids is the vale guardian , that boss relies alot on luck it seems, and everyone whos beaten it claims the other raid bosses are a piece of cake compared to it
The difficulty of raid boss from easiest to hardest:
Bandit Trio (2nd Wing 2nd Raid Boss)
Vale Guardian
Gorseval
Sloth
Sabetha
Matthias
People probably thinks raid boss is easy because they have done it enough time or got carried by experienced player. For example, I can dodge Gorseval’s slam attack/egg so easily. I can pretty know when Sabetha’s cannon order and her flamewall gonna go up.
I logged in, I turned on my team speak client, I said hi to my guild mates, we went in, we killed 3 bosses and Gorseval twice in like 2 hours, we said good night, and went off.
Raids are for organised people, for guilds, for friends. Raids are not for LFG. I found out about it the hard way. I was on the verge of totally quiting. Then I joined a guild and found out how it is.
(edited by Mortifer.2946)
One word:
Elitism.
And this is why the game, which prospered so much at launch, didn’t feature any kind of “elite” or arbitrarily “difficult” content. And also part of why, HoT, an expansion featured as pleasing the “hardcore” crowd has failed in the eyes of a bulk majority of players when looking at sheer numbers.
Strictly speaking, not many people care. And those that do are likely too exclusive to not care about anyone not involved in their personal affairs.
This. Give this poster a prize.
Gone to Reddit.
One word:
Elitism.
And this is why the game, which prospered so much at launch, didn’t feature any kind of “elite” or arbitrarily “difficult” content. And also part of why, HoT, an expansion featured as pleasing the “hardcore” crowd has failed in the eyes of a bulk majority of players when looking at sheer numbers.
Strictly speaking, not many people care. And those that do are likely too exclusive to not care about anyone not involved in their personal affairs.
This. Give this poster a prize.
No, he doesn’t deserve any prize. The expansion is meant for the end game crowd, where you continued your journey. Would you add more content where you can pretty much faceroll everything with by spamming 1? The reality is GW2 playerbase is so used to faceroll everything. Anything,that is remotely challenging, is demanded to nerf so the playerbase can faceroll. Just because you can’t faceroll the content, it doesnt mean the expansion is a failure.
One word:
Elitism.
And this is why the game, which prospered so much at launch, didn’t feature any kind of “elite” or arbitrarily “difficult” content. And also part of why, HoT, an expansion featured as pleasing the “hardcore” crowd has failed in the eyes of a bulk majority of players when looking at sheer numbers.
Strictly speaking, not many people care. And those that do are likely too exclusive to not care about anyone not involved in their personal affairs.
This. Give this poster a prize.
No, he doesn’t deserve any prize. The expansion is meant for the end game crowd, where you continued your journey. Would you add more content where you can pretty much faceroll everything with by spamming 1? The reality is GW2 playerbase is so used to faceroll everything. Anything,that is remotely challenging, is demanded to nerf so the playerbase can faceroll. Just because you can’t faceroll the content, it doesnt mean the expansion is a failure.
This. Give this poster a prize.
RP enthusiast
One word:
Elitism.
And this is why the game, which prospered so much at launch, didn’t feature any kind of “elite” or arbitrarily “difficult” content. And also part of why, HoT, an expansion featured as pleasing the “hardcore” crowd has failed in the eyes of a bulk majority of players when looking at sheer numbers.
Strictly speaking, not many people care. And those that do are likely too exclusive to not care about anyone not involved in their personal affairs.
This. Give this poster a prize.
No, he doesn’t deserve any prize. The expansion is meant for the end game crowd, where you continued your journey.
Yes. Precisely. That crowd turned out to be much smaller than Anet expected, which was a huge part in HoT general failure.
That’s exactly why they are now trying to make HoT zones more easily accessible, and why they are pushing their development powers towards LS (which is mainly content for casuals, not hardcores).
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
One word:
Elitism.
And this is why the game, which prospered so much at launch, didn’t feature any kind of “elite” or arbitrarily “difficult” content. And also part of why, HoT, an expansion featured as pleasing the “hardcore” crowd has failed in the eyes of a bulk majority of players when looking at sheer numbers.
Strictly speaking, not many people care. And those that do are likely too exclusive to not care about anyone not involved in their personal affairs.
This. Give this poster a prize.
No, he doesn’t deserve any prize. The expansion is meant for the end game crowd, where you continued your journey.
Yes. Precisely. That crowd turned out to be much smaller than Anet expected, which was a huge part in HoT general failure.
That’s exactly why they are now trying to make HoT zones more easily accessible, and why they are pushing their development powers towards LS (which is mainly content for casuals, not hardcores).
They are making it more accessible not easier. Every casual came he after launch complaint about pocket raptors and smokescale and as far as I know they aren’t changing that difficulty. They are making it so adventures are not gated behind events, changing map timers etc. The focus on LS was at the expense of legendary weapons, raids are still going to be pumped out so if they keep the mobs the same they won’t have changed any of the end game difficulty. If they do nerf the mobs then this game would have taken a huge step backwards.
RP enthusiast
Yes. Precisely. That crowd turned out to be much smaller than Anet expected, which was a huge part in HoT general failure.
That’s exactly why they are now trying to make HoT zones more easily accessible, and why they are pushing their development powers towards LS (which is mainly content for casuals, not hardcores).
What crowd? Like all of my friends, I’m hardcore when it come to the challenge, but not when it come to the accessibility. Challenge is nice, it’s entertaining. Difficulty in accessibility is not. The crowd that like the raid and are hardcore also want HoT maps to be more casual and accessible. Keep in mind, most of us play the game way before raid were introduced. We like the casual nature of the game, we just wanted a tiny bit of challenge in our game and we got it.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
One word:
Elitism.
And this is why the game, which prospered so much at launch, didn’t feature any kind of “elite” or arbitrarily “difficult” content. And also part of why, HoT, an expansion featured as pleasing the “hardcore” crowd has failed in the eyes of a bulk majority of players when looking at sheer numbers.
Strictly speaking, not many people care. And those that do are likely too exclusive to not care about anyone not involved in their personal affairs.
This. Give this poster a prize.
No, he doesn’t deserve any prize. The expansion is meant for the end game crowd, where you continued your journey. Would you add more content where you can pretty much faceroll everything with by spamming 1? The reality is GW2 playerbase is so used to faceroll everything. Anything,that is remotely challenging, is demanded to nerf so the playerbase can faceroll. Just because you can’t faceroll the content, it doesnt mean the expansion is a failure.
This. Give this poster a prize.
Why not just agree that there are two different audiences for the game that want two very different things, and that so long as both audiences got plenty of new stuff out of the expansion, it was a success?
I mean, the people that enjoy challenging content that advances the challenge level of previous stuff got the raids, and the Mordrem enemies, and the Chak, and the Garrant, and the general HoT open world stuff, so they got what they were looking for in those bits of the expansion, and the more casual low-difficulty players got. . . gliders, I guess? Gliders are cool.
Ultimately though, this isn’t something that can be solved by arguing about it on forums, you can’t be “right” on this issue, it all comes down to how many players actually ended up being pleased by what HoT was. If it was a small number, then they failed with it, not matter how much you might like it. If it’s a very large number relative to the total population, then it was a success, even if it wasn’t a success for you. We don’t have that numbers, so we can only guess where ANet intends to go next with it.
If they do nerf the mobs then this game would have taken a huge step backwards.
You forgot the “. . .for me” part there, it’s vitally important to the accuracy of the comment.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Personally I am not afraid of raiding I just have zero interest in it.
I do not like being made to play for a substantial length of time without the choice to drop in and out at my leisure. Plus I do not like depending on others to obtain my own reward regardless of how well I personally perform.
Raids are not for me and no matter how they doll it up, it never will be.
“I am Evon Gnashblade and this message is acceptable to me.”
I’m not afraid, but I don’t do raiding because isn’t my focus here on GW2. I already raid with my friends on WoW at weekends, so I prefer to play here more open world content like the events, world bosses, crafting and gold farming, something that currently I don’t have on “Garrisoncraft”…
But this “fear” is real, I know many people that avoid raids like plague no matter the game, most of then because q really bad raiding experience at WoW like being unlucky when they found a raiding guild or even a trial testing on high end guilds. They instead to try to enjoy the game at their pace and/or find a friendly raiding guild, they jump with parachute into just the high ends ones (if they are really unlucky, the really elitist ones lol), and this never ends well…
One word:
Elitism.
And this is why the game, which prospered so much at launch, didn’t feature any kind of “elite” or arbitrarily “difficult” content. And also part of why, HoT, an expansion featured as pleasing the “hardcore” crowd has failed in the eyes of a bulk majority of players when looking at sheer numbers.
Strictly speaking, not many people care. And those that do are likely too exclusive to not care about anyone not involved in their personal affairs.
This. Give this poster a prize.
No, he doesn’t deserve any prize. The expansion is meant for the end game crowd, where you continued your journey. Would you add more content where you can pretty much faceroll everything with by spamming 1? The reality is GW2 playerbase is so used to faceroll everything. Anything,that is remotely challenging, is demanded to nerf so the playerbase can faceroll. Just because you can’t faceroll the content, it doesnt mean the expansion is a failure.
This. Give this poster a prize.
Why not just agree that there are two different audiences for the game that want two very different things, and that so long as both audiences got plenty of new stuff out of the expansion, it was a success?
I mean, the people that enjoy challenging content that advances the challenge level of previous stuff got the raids, and the Mordrem enemies, and the Chak, and the Garrant, and the general HoT open world stuff, so they got what they were looking for in those bits of the expansion, and the more casual low-difficulty players got. . . gliders, I guess? Gliders are cool.
Ultimately though, this isn’t something that can be solved by arguing about it on forums, you can’t be “right” on this issue, it all comes down to how many players actually ended up being pleased by what HoT was. If it was a small number, then they failed with it, not matter how much you might like it. If it’s a very large number relative to the total population, then it was a success, even if it wasn’t a success for you. We don’t have that numbers, so we can only guess where ANet intends to go next with it.
If they do nerf the mobs then this game would have taken a huge step backwards.
You forgot the “. . .for me” part there, it’s vitally important to the accuracy of the comment.
I actually agree with the spirit of the post, but not the ultimate conclusion. It’s actually refreshing to find some common ground.
Yes, there are a lot of different audiences for this game! As for me, I like instanced group content. Raids did fill that niche for me. (Although fractals and dungeons post HOT are a disaster).
I can see why people who liked open world are upset. I don’t think this content was aimed at the hard core crowd. I also don’t think the enemy difficulty is the ultimate problem (I don’t see huge complaints about the same enemies in story) but it may be a contributing factor. I think the problem is that every single map is event driven, on a timer, and has champion protected hero points.
I mean, not everyone likes being forced into a group. And they certainly don’t like having to play a map according to a schedule. All the new maps require this. And it’s a problem.
There seems to be some promising fixes on the way. Soloable hero points. Shorter timers (the timer for TD is ridiculous).
But yeah, right now HOT causal content is in a dire state. I don’t think this is the fault of raids (which are generally well received by that community) but the ongoing content drought and poor open world maps.
(edited by Absurdo.8309)
Raids could have kept me playing Guild Wars 2 if they were done properly…
The issue with them isn’t the difficulty, it’s that they aren’t that fascinating or interesting in the first place.
The initial feeling when starting the raids should be “WoW that’s fun and amazing”.
Then you should get involved from a gameplay perspective, be presented with the new mechanics with explorable content between boss encounters that start easily and gets increasingly difficult as the story develops its dramatic arc simultaneously.
Each wings should be based on that basic principle and never should the experience turn into a frustrating one where you get wiped 25 times in a row or look for a party for 2 hours. You should only get rewards penalties, not be stuck face to face with a wall.
HoT raids are the complete opposite.
Why are people so afraid of raiding?
I’ve never set foot on Raids and I’ve been playing most days since the original release of the game and have several characters on full Ascended gear, I’ll give you my personal reason on why I’m not even slightly interested in Raiding:
Not worth it.
ANet themselves said they wanted to stick with 5 player instanced content, which I personally love and think it’s still the best bet, the only reason they gave in and made Raids at all was because of pure player pressure.
Now as always these players were a minority in the forums, but very vocal, so they finally got what they wanted…
I say it’s not worth it because we all have horror stories in Dungeons, and those are smaller, require less coordination and you only have 4 other players to worry about.
Now imagine 9 other payers on more challenging content, it’s a recipe for disaster, people will rage quit or simply have to go offline because of their personal life.
Having 10 players doing the same thing for around an hour is tall order, especially because you’ll hardly find those guys again to keep trying another day until you can beat the Raid.
That’s why no one PuGs Raids, you can only do it with people you know for years that you are sure they are reliable.
Now to make matters worst since ANet wanted to make Raids loot/rewards attractive, but not ruin the economy, they actually dropped the rewards in Dungeons.
Before HoT I could easily find a PuG to do any Dungeon, one or two paths per Dungeon at least, after HoT Dungeons all but dried out from PuGs.
Even CoF P2, that you could always find a PuG at any time even before LFG tool and before MegaServer, even that they managed to kill, it’s honestly a sad sight.
But hey, they got a tiny minority happy with the Raids now, never mind a much larger chunk of the population got screwed over, that’s progress, I guess.
At least for Fractals is easier to find a PuG now…
Victoria Cross [VC] – Desolation [EU]
That’s why no one PuGs Raids, you can only do it with people you know for years that you are sure they are reliable.
I don’t have time to reply to the whole thing here, but this is false; plenty of people pug raids. My raid successes are all with pugs…
HAF 912 | i7-3770k @ 4.5 GHz | MSI GTX 1070 GAMING 8GB | Gigabyte Z77X-D3H
EGVA SuperNOVA B2 750W | 16 GB DDR3 1600 | Acer XG270HU | Win 10×64
MX Brown Quickfire XT | Commander Shaussman [AGNY]- Fort Aspenwood
EGVA SuperNOVA B2 750W | 16 GB DDR3 1600 | Acer XG270HU | Win 10×64
MX Brown Quickfire XT | Commander Shaussman [AGNY]- Fort Aspenwood
You forgot the “. . .for me” part there, it’s vitally important to the accuracy of the comment.
Were you not around when the masses were calling for more difficult content prior to HoT? In general, if a game does not increase in difficulty over time, then the game has no longitivtiy. You can make the difficulty constant, but then the game becomes mindless. In order for a game to be interactively entertaining and promote longitivtiy, there needs to be slight increases in difficulty (a sort of ladder) as the game goes on, especially when adding in player-boosting mechanics such as elite specs.
You forgot the “. . .for me” part there, it’s vitally important to the accuracy of the comment.
Were you not around when the masses were calling for more difficult content prior to HoT? In general, if a game does not increase in difficulty over time, then the game has no longitivtiy. You can make the difficulty constant, but then the game becomes mindless. In order for a game to be interactively entertaining and promote longitivtiy, there needs to be slight increases in difficulty (a sort of ladder) as the game goes on, especially when adding in player-boosting mechanics such as elite specs.
It’s a shame there is no Reddit gold system here.
RP enthusiast
That’s why no one PuGs Raids, you can only do it with people you know for years that you are sure they are reliable.
I don’t have time to reply to the whole thing here, but this is false; plenty of people pug raids. My raid successes are all with pugs…
False?
Let me check the LFG tool on a Friday, 6:30PM London time.
Ascalonian Catacombs: 2
Caudecus’s Manor: 0
Twilight Arbor: 0
Sorrow’s Embrace: 0
Citadel of Flame: 1
Honor of the Waves: 0
Crucible of Eternity: 0
The Ruined City of Arah: 1 <- Selling.
Mind you I’ve waited in each tab to see if PuGs turn up.
Now add the fact the LFG tool doesn’t have any tab for Raids and your case is looking flimsy at best.
For the giggles on the Open World Content tab there are over 37 PuGs selling SAB, too many coming too fast to count.
Last nail, let me /m LFG Raid. Nothing after 10 minutes…
But I’ll take your word for it, plenty of people PuG Raids, GW2 is healthier than ever, Raids and the Expansion were a great idea. Not.
Victoria Cross [VC] – Desolation [EU]
That’s why no one PuGs Raids, you can only do it with people you know for years that you are sure they are reliable.
I don’t have time to reply to the whole thing here, but this is false; plenty of people pug raids. My raid successes are all with pugs…
False?
Let me check the LFG tool on a Friday, 6:30PM London time.
Mind you I’ve waited in each tab to see if PuGs turn up.
Now add the fact the LFG tool doesn’t have any tab for Raids and your case is looking flimsy at best.For the giggles on the Open World Content tab there are over 37 PuGs selling SAB, too many coming too fast to count.
Last nail, let me /m LFG Raid. Nothing after 10 minutes…
But I’ll take your word for it, plenty of people PuG Raids, GW2 is healthier than ever, Raids and the Expansion were a great idea. Not.
Your data is not a very good example and in fact points directly to the cause. It’s SAB time for only a couple weeks which will take priority over just about any other content.
So, I played GW2 when it first came out, and had a lot of fun with it — at first. Fractals rolled around, and they were fun, but you can only do the same thing so many times before it gets boring. So, I quit at about the beginning of Living Story season 1.
Flash forward a few years, and here I started playing again ~3 weeks ago. When I heard about new fractals, a raid, and all kinds of challenging content, I just had to come back! So, now I have an 80 Engineer and Elementalist (both fully geared out), I’ve been raiding in MMOs for upwards of 12 years, and all that — yet, to date, I’ve not even set foot inside the raid.
I’ve been listing myself in LFG for a week and a half or so, I’ve been asking around in chat, and so on. But, there’s just no one pugging a raid, or filling a spot, or any of that. And no guilds are recruiting that actually go into the raid.
So, what exactly is the issue? Is the raid in GW2 just one of the hardest in the genre or something, or are people just being silly?
Raiding was the main reason I came back to the game. : / And it doesn’t seem like I’ll even set foot in the raid any time soon.
Its the fact that people are burned out of raiding in any mmo, not just gw2, raiding made the wow community toxic beyond redemption and it has created a stigma where raiders get all the content at the expense of every other player that wants to do dungeons/pvp/open world pve/solo story content and generally it creates an exclusivity system surrounded by elitism.
Raiding, is a toxic form of progression designed to bar 1% of the community off from the remaining 99% so that 1% of players can feel special and important. It has never once generated any incentive to help players raid, or work with newer players to do older less relevent content in any mmo and it is clearly a bad idea to impliament it in a game that “Prides” itself in being about social interaction without having to force people into it.
Basically, they bait-and-switched the entire playerbase by giving them a 180% on their views, which was "you can do group content but you dont “have” to group with people “or” if you want to, you can.
The entire point of GW2 was meant to eliminate the idea of working as a group by forcing people into mandatory rolecalls, instead, this very kind of content is exactly what GW2 doesnt need.
TL:DR?
Raiding needs to leave GW2 forever, and frankly never return, its a bad idea, it needs to die in a fire.
You forgot the “. . .for me” part there, it’s vitally important to the accuracy of the comment.
Were you not around when the masses were calling for more difficult content prior to HoT?
Lol, i was there from the beginning, and “the masses” never asked for it. A small but vocal minority did.
In general, if a game does not increase in difficulty over time, then the game has no longitivtiy.
That’s not exactly true. In fact, if you look at it, most MMOs don’t really increase difficulty. Yeah, the mobs get stronger, but at the same time players get supplied with stronger gear to balance it. That creates an illusion that you improve, while in fact you are standing still.
No. What you realy need is new goals to pursue, both long and shortterm ones. New maps, skins, achievements, questlines and bosses, new legendaries, scavenger hunts and new reasons to spend resources (and thus new reasons to obtain them).
there needs to be slight increases in difficulty (a sort of ladder) as the game goes on, especially when adding in player-boosting mechanics such as elite specs.
It’s actually better not to introduce such mechanics, because not only they require introducing stronger enemies, but eventually either invalidate old content or force devs to put effort into revamping it.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November