Guild Wars 2

Seriously it requires a lot of changes to let ppl love to run them again, especially the high level ones. Remove some trash mobs and reduce the length. It’s not fun to spend a lot of time dodging mobs.

Why dodge them? With HoT builds and Ascended gear, it’s often just as fast to melt them down than run past them. Gets you more loot too.

Yeah, for very low skill level groups it would definitely be faster to clear out the whole path rather than trying to skip past mobs.

For experienced groups, they always adapt party comp to the exact path (anyone, who plays for at least a few months has a whole bunch of classes they can relog to), utilize them to their max potential and skip every part of the dungeon that is not essential to finishing it. Here is an example how this looks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=extTdoFs4qo
An entire dungeon path takes 2 minutes to finish in a full 5 man party. Casual run without portal strats will definitely take more, but as long as everyone knows what they’re doing, no dungeon should ever take more than a few minutes.
The truth is pugs are so terrible at the game, you can usually complete a dungeon SOLO faster than they would in a full 5-man party.

So even though dungeons do indeed require many changes (which unfortunately never will be made since the devs already buried this gamemode), none of the changes are related to difficulty or length. If anything, they should be made more difficult, not less.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Yeah, for very low skill level groups it would definitely be faster to clear out the whole path rather than trying to skip past mobs.

For experienced groups, they always adapt party comp to the exact path (anyone, who plays for at least a few months has a whole bunch of classes they can relog to), utilize them to their max potential and skip every part of the dungeon that is not essential to finishing it. Here is an example how this looks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=extTdoFs4qo
An entire dungeon path takes 2 minutes to finish in a full 5 man party. Casual run without portal strats will definitely take more, but as long as everyone knows what they’re doing, no dungeon should ever take more than a few minutes.
The truth is pugs are so terrible at the game, you can usually complete a dungeon SOLO faster than they would in a full 5-man party.

So even though dungeons do indeed require many changes (which unfortunately never will be made since the devs already buried this gamemode), none of the changes are related to difficulty or length. If anything, they should be made more difficult, not less.

I always prefer to clear them, but the team didn’t agree.

Of course it has to do with length, so more people will do them.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Yeah, for very low skill level groups it would definitely be faster to clear out the whole path rather than trying to skip past mobs.

For experienced groups, they always adapt party comp to the exact path (anyone, who plays for at least a few months has a whole bunch of classes they can relog to), utilize them to their max potential and skip every part of the dungeon that is not essential to finishing it. Here is an example how this looks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=extTdoFs4qo
An entire dungeon path takes 2 minutes to finish in a full 5 man party. Casual run without portal strats will definitely take more, but as long as everyone knows what they’re doing, no dungeon should ever take more than a few minutes.
The truth is pugs are so terrible at the game, you can usually complete a dungeon SOLO faster than they would in a full 5-man party.

So even though dungeons do indeed require many changes (which unfortunately never will be made since the devs already buried this gamemode), none of the changes are related to difficulty or length. If anything, they should be made more difficult, not less.

I find that most people who say this are the same people that refuse to help newer players get better at the game, as such seeing anyone say it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If PUGs are so terrible in your opinion, then what are you doing to help them improve on a regular basis? Have you ever joined a PUG in a dungeon and explained the whole encounter to them, where to stack, which skills to use to stack might/reflect projectiles, why they should/shouldn’t be using a certain weapon etc…? If the answer is no then I say you don’t have any right to complain about PUGs not knowing how to run dungeons well.

Back to the topic, I think that the ability to skip most of the dungeon is a big reason as to why we aren’t going to see much more dungeon development, if any more. Dungeons require a lot of resources on ANets part, and most of it goes to waste if 90% of groups will skip 90% of the content in dungeon paths.

One could argue that they could make longer, harder paths where you can’t skip stuff, but realistically people would tire of that pretty quick. Twilight Arbor and Arah are longer, harder dungeons than others, and comparatively they also get many fewer parties posted in LFG (Twilight arbor is pretty hard to find a party of people who know the dungeon), so we have real evidence in game that simply making the dungeons harder won’t encourage more people to play them.

I would love it if Anet decided to start working on dungeons again, I really would. But I just don’t see it happening unfortunately.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Seriously it requires a lot of changes to let ppl love to run them again, especially the high level ones. Remove some trash mobs and reduce the length. It’s not fun to spend a lot of time dodging mobs.

Sure … they can remove the end bosses while they are at it too … just click a button and get loot. I mean, why not remove every part that annoys people to run dungeons; people only do them for the loot.

Zaxares.5419:

Why dodge them? With HoT builds and Ascended gear, it’s often just as fast to melt them down than run past them. Gets you more loot too.

Like that one part in AC p3. People always skip the last mob of Graveling breeders and Grast always get stuck on them. It’s always far quicker to just kill the 3 rather than trying to get the npc to deaggro.

Put 25g at the end of arah p4, and everyone and their mother will be farming it daily.

People who know them well are just bored with them and moved onto raiding, or other games.

With hot builds they became a lot easier and much more of a stepping stone to getting exotics or gold ( and ecto) towards first asc gear.

Considering the original design, with exotic gear of different stats, and various level reqs, they seem to be being used as intended to me.

Connect all paths into one long path and give the bosses some new mechanics. Then call it Hard Mode and give a 2g reward at the end + some currency to get Ascended stuff and other shinies. Dungeons are saved!

OriOri.8724:

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Yeah, for very low skill level groups it would definitely be faster to clear out the whole path rather than trying to skip past mobs.

For experienced groups, they always adapt party comp to the exact path (anyone, who plays for at least a few months has a whole bunch of classes they can relog to), utilize them to their max potential and skip every part of the dungeon that is not essential to finishing it. Here is an example how this looks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=extTdoFs4qo
An entire dungeon path takes 2 minutes to finish in a full 5 man party. Casual run without portal strats will definitely take more, but as long as everyone knows what they’re doing, no dungeon should ever take more than a few minutes.
The truth is pugs are so terrible at the game, you can usually complete a dungeon SOLO faster than they would in a full 5-man party.

So even though dungeons do indeed require many changes (which unfortunately never will be made since the devs already buried this gamemode), none of the changes are related to difficulty or length. If anything, they should be made more difficult, not less.

I find that most people who say this are the same people that refuse to help newer players get better at the game, as such seeing anyone say it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If PUGs are so terrible in your opinion, then what are you doing to help them improve on a regular basis? Have you ever joined a PUG in a dungeon and explained the whole encounter to them, where to stack, which skills to use to stack might/reflect projectiles, why they should/shouldn’t be using a certain weapon etc…? If the answer is no then I say you don’t have any right to complain about PUGs not knowing how to run dungeons well.

Back to the topic, I think that the ability to skip most of the dungeon is a big reason as to why we aren’t going to see much more dungeon development, if any more. Dungeons require a lot of resources on ANets part, and most of it goes to waste if 90% of groups will skip 90% of the content in dungeon paths.

One could argue that they could make longer, harder paths where you can’t skip stuff, but realistically people would tire of that pretty quick. Twilight Arbor and Arah are longer, harder dungeons than others, and comparatively they also get many fewer parties posted in LFG (Twilight arbor is pretty hard to find a party of people who know the dungeon), so we have real evidence in game that simply making the dungeons harder won’t encourage more people to play them.

I would love it if Anet decided to start working on dungeons again, I really would. But I just don’t see it happening unfortunately.

PPL skip because those trash mobs are boring, took long to kill and don’t offer anything good. They should be removed so more ppl will run them.

Personally I don’t find any Arah bosses beside Lupi is hard, but the running is annoying if you wipe on the way.

Goldfox.5729:

Connect all paths into one long path and give the bosses some new mechanics. Then call it Hard Mode and give a 2g reward at the end + some currency to get Ascended stuff and other shinies. Dungeons are saved!

That’s even worse, ppl prefer short runs.

Obtena.7952:

Sure … they can remove the end bosses while they are at it too … just click a button and get loot. I mean, why not remove every part that annoys people to run dungeons; people only do them for the loot.

The problem isn’t the boss, but the boring running/clear trash mobs, it’s not interesting or challenging.

This is a game, if it’s too long and don’t offer much good, ppl won’t run them, especially when there are so many open world zerg events.

Seriously, Arah spent like 15-20 mins with average pug(P4 is longer), its current reward is just terrible. I think the bosses are ok, including Lupi, just need to reduce the running distance and the trash mobs.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Obtena.7952:

Sure … they can remove the end bosses while they are at it too … just click a button and get loot. I mean, why not remove every part that annoys people to run dungeons; people only do them for the loot.

The problem isn’t the boss, but the boring running/clear trash mobs, it’s not interesting or challenging.

This is a game, if it’s too long and don’t offer much good, ppl won’t run them, especially when there are so many open world zerg events.

Not sure you have thought this through very well … there are LOTS of problems, the least of them is a few trash mobs that can be skipped if you don’t want to kill them.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Seriously, Arah spent like 15-20 mins with average pug(P4 is longer), its current reward is just terrible. I think the bosses are ok, including Lupi, just need to reduce the running distance and the trash mobs.

What you’re asking for is an Arah fractal.

Obtena.7952:

Not sure you have thought this through very well … there are LOTS of problems, the least of them is a few trash mobs that can be skipped if you don’t want to kill them.

Trash mobs are the biggest problem, without the long running/clearing, more ppl would start to run the dungeons.

OriOri.8724:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Seriously, Arah spent like 15-20 mins with average pug(P4 is longer), its current reward is just terrible. I think the bosses are ok, including Lupi, just need to reduce the running distance and the trash mobs.

What you’re asking for is an Arah fractal.

Exactly, people prefer quick and straight runs.

Dungeons don’t provide any good stuff other than tokens for special skins, of course it should be quick and less annoying if you want ppl to run them, otherwise what’s the purpose to find a group?

So run fractals then … What’s the problem?

Obtena.7952:

So run fractals then … What’s the problem?

Dungeons are part of the game as well.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Obtena.7952:

So run fractals then … What’s the problem?

Dungeons are part of the game as well.

Yes, the part of the game that is more difficult to update and therefore no longer the focus of ANet.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Seriously it requires a lot of changes

Answered your own question.

It’s a lot of work and the returns aren’t clear.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Obtena.7952:

So run fractals then … What’s the problem?

Dungeons are part of the game as well.

That’s neither here nor there … Dungeons being part of the game is not an answer to my question. There is one good thing about your response though; it’s makes my point well. You see, you have choice. If you want a more ‘fractal-like’ experience, you should make the right decision and play fractals instead of subjecting yourself to content you don’t like that doesn’t reward you the way you think it should. I’m certain that high level fractals will prevent you from having to interact with the same kind of content in dungeons that annoys you.

Sarrs.4831:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Seriously it requires a lot of changes

Answered your own question.

It’s a lot of work and the returns aren’t clear.

The returns would be good if they make changes. PPl don’t run them because it’s not worthy.

Obtena.7952:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Obtena.7952:

So run fractals then … What’s the problem?

Dungeons are part of the game as well.

That’s neither here nor there … Dungeons being part of the game is not an answer to my question. There is one good thing about your response though; it’s makes my point well. You see, you have choice. If you want a more ‘fractal-like’ experience, you should make the right decision and play fractals instead of subjecting yourself to content you don’t like that doesn’t reward you the way you think it should. I’m certain that high level fractals will prevent you from having to interact with the same kind of content in dungeons that annoys you.

But I like to run dungeon as well. Dungeon should be interesting to play, not taking too long and have reasonable rewards. Right now it’s just bad rewards+a lot of time/effort doing skip/clear trash mobs.

I think just 2 major changes could make more ppl to run them.

Remove a lot of the trash mobs or make them much easier to kill and drop some stuff.
Improve the rewards, not just tokens and money.

Again, I don’t get your complaint … you don’t have to fight those mobs, so how it is longer if you skip them instead of fighting them? Like I said, you don’t like the bad rewards, you don’t like the time it takes (though it doesn’t actually take a long time … so I don’t get this point either), but somehow you like running it. Doesn’t make sense.

The discussion is rather pointless anyways. As other posters already said, Anet doesn’t invest time in dungeons anymore.

Obtena.7952:

Again, I don’t get your complaint … you don’t have to fight those mobs, so how it is longer if you skip them instead of fighting them? Like I said, you don’t like the bad rewards, you don’t like the time it takes (though it doesn’t actually take a long time … so I don’t get this point either), but somehow you like running it. Doesn’t make sense.

The discussion is rather pointless anyways. As other posters already said, Anet doesn’t invest time in dungeons anymore.

But the skip is not funny as well, nor is it what intended to be.

I like to experience the story and have fun with a small group, just want better reward plus less skip/killing trash mobs.

You’re right, that wasn’t the intention … so the fix isn’t to remove the mobs because that’s not the intention either … it’s to make them harder so they can’t be skipped. Anet intended people fight them.

Obtena.7952:

You’re right, that wasn’t the intention … so the fix isn’t to remove the mobs because that’s not the intention either … it’s to make them harder so they can’t be skipped. Anet intended people fight them.

It would be since nobody likes it. Reduce the number and difficulty but make them drop stuff is the way to go, just make them harder and unskippable would simply kill off the dungeon..

Again, you miss the point. You hinted at intentions. That’s what is important. Do you think it’s Anet’s intention to remove mobs from dungeons? Did you actually think if Anet is really concerned if people do dungeons or not, given the fact that they haven’t done anything to them in so long?

The solution here isn’t just to remove the things you don’t like. That’s not going to make dungeons popular again. If anything, removing content should make the rewards smaller. If it’s just a boss at the end of a tunnel, it shouldn’t be any more interesting or rewarding than an open world boss. That’s the essence of your suggestion.

Slowpokeking.8720:

OriOri.8724:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Seriously, Arah spent like 15-20 mins with average pug(P4 is longer), its current reward is just terrible. I think the bosses are ok, including Lupi, just need to reduce the running distance and the trash mobs.

What you’re asking for is an Arah fractal.

Exactly, people prefer quick and straight runs.

Dungeons don’t provide any good stuff other than tokens for special skins, of course it should be quick and less annoying if you want ppl to run them, otherwise what’s the purpose to find a group?

U alrdy solved ur own problem.. stated how arah take like 15min now with average pug, compared to like 30min before hot. What ur fail to realise is that dungeons were scaled to pre-hot (outdated) builds, thus their rewards r also outdated for most part. Elite spec warrior (to use 1 simple example) basically doubled dps from what we had previously. How it affected other classes then?

I done arah mayb once or twice since I gotten hot but I mean it’s just too ez now, everything dies way too quickly it’s anticlimactic tbh. Poor ooze doesn’t even get to bounce around or stomp some helpless scrub anymore, he just dissolves into a puddle soon as he appears. Lupi was alrdy broken to begin with, now he could be missing both eyes and an arm cos he rarely even downs anyone, can’t even manage to kill anyone b4 he gets burned down like a hot iron cutting thru cloth. Tbh most of what’s left in arah is just as homage to it’s former greatness, now it’s worth sweeping under the rug for the most part. But then again, lupi could alrdy be one-shot by a total noob using the wall trick, so it’s nothing new I guess

nagr.1593:

U alrdy solved ur own problem.. stated how arah take like 15min now with average pug, compared to like 30min before hot. What ur fail to realise is that dungeons were scaled to pre-hot (outdated) builds, thus their rewards r also outdated for most part. Elite spec warrior (to use 1 simple example) basically doubled dps from what we had previously. How it affected other classes then?

I done arah mayb once or twice since I gotten hot but I mean it’s just too ez now, everything dies way too quickly it’s anticlimactic tbh. Poor ooze doesn’t even get to bounce around or stomp some helpless scrub anymore, he just dissolves into a puddle soon as he appears. Lupi was alrdy broken to begin with, now he could be missing both eyes and an arm cos he rarely even downs anyone, can’t even manage to kill anyone b4 he gets burned down like a hot iron cutting thru cloth. Tbh most of what’s left in arah is just as homage to it’s former greatness, now it’s worth sweeping under the rug for the most part. But then again, lupi could alrdy be one-shot by a total noob using the wall trick, so it’s nothing new I guess

But the old players have left and new players aren’t that experienced, it’s still slow and annoying based on the reward and timer.

Obtena.7952:

Again, you miss the point. You hinted at intentions. That’s what is important. Do you think it’s Anet’s intention to remove mobs from dungeons? Did you actually think if Anet is really concerned if people do dungeons or not, given the fact that they haven’t done anything to them in so long?

The solution here isn’t just to remove the things you don’t like. That’s not going to make dungeons popular again. If anything, removing content should make the rewards smaller. If it’s just a boss at the end of a tunnel, it shouldn’t be any more interesting or rewarding than an open world boss. That’s the essence of your suggestion.

Why not? Killing trash mobs are pointless and boring.

Most dungeons are a joke with the new builds (and most were a joke before even HOT came out). But the main problem is that they seem to ignore the dungeons. They don’t even create new ones. I don’t know what the problem here is. Every MMO releases dungeons in a regular way.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Most dungeons are a joke with the new builds (and most were a joke before even HOT came out). But the main problem is that they seem to ignore the dungeons. They don’t even create new ones. I don’t know what the problem here is. Every MMO releases dungeons in a regular way.

GW2 does release new dungeons regularly in Fractals.

Yea… two fractals in like 3 years and both are made of assets of old content. Great stuff.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Obtena.7952:

Again, you miss the point. You hinted at intentions. That’s what is important. Do you think it’s Anet’s intention to remove mobs from dungeons? Did you actually think if Anet is really concerned if people do dungeons or not, given the fact that they haven’t done anything to them in so long?

The solution here isn’t just to remove the things you don’t like. That’s not going to make dungeons popular again. If anything, removing content should make the rewards smaller. If it’s just a boss at the end of a tunnel, it shouldn’t be any more interesting or rewarding than an open world boss. That’s the essence of your suggestion.

Why not? Killing trash mobs are pointless and boring.

Some people think the same about other things in the game too … but those things aren’t removed either. Being ‘pointless and boring’ are clearly not reasons to remove content. Anyways, as you already mentioned, which you seem to be completely ignoring at your convenience now … there is what Anet intended, and it isn’t to put content in, just to take it out later. So removing the mobs isn’t a solution to the problem in the first place, it’s to make those mobs not pointless and boring.

See .. my problem with your thread is that you don’t really care about anything except having a faster, more convenient path to dungeon loot, which is already easy as all get out as it is and why I made the joke about removing the boss and clicking a button to get loot. The thread itself is a joke because anyone that wants to see a healthier dungeon content and community is not advocating the removal of content from dungeons. I think your motives are not about dungeons being better, I think they are about you getting more loot easier and faster.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Yea… two fractals in like 3 years and both are made of assets of old content. Great stuff.

Adding assets is the least expensive part of a new dungeon. The encounters are new and I find them a lot of fun. So yes, to me, they are great stuff; sorry that you don’t like them.

Obtena.7952:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Obtena.7952:

Again, you miss the point. You hinted at intentions. That’s what is important. Do you think it’s Anet’s intention to remove mobs from dungeons? Did you actually think if Anet is really concerned if people do dungeons or not, given the fact that they haven’t done anything to them in so long?

The solution here isn’t just to remove the things you don’t like. That’s not going to make dungeons popular again. If anything, removing content should make the rewards smaller. If it’s just a boss at the end of a tunnel, it shouldn’t be any more interesting or rewarding than an open world boss. That’s the essence of your suggestion.

Why not? Killing trash mobs are pointless and boring.

Some people think the same about other things in the game too … but those things aren’t removed either. Being ‘pointless and boring’ are clearly not reasons to remove content. Anyways, as you already mentioned, which you seem to be completely ignoring at your convenience now … there is what Anet intended, and it isn’t to put content in, just to take it out later. So removing the mobs isn’t a solution to the problem in the first place, it’s to make those mobs not pointless and boring.

See .. my problem with your thread is that you don’t really care about anything except having a faster, more convenient path to dungeon loot, which is already easy as all get out as it is and why I made the joke about removing the boss and clicking a button to get loot. The thread itself is a joke because anyone that wants to see a healthier dungeon content and community is not advocating the removal of content from dungeons. I think your motives are not about dungeons being better, I think they are about you getting more loot easier and faster.

I do kind of agree with him on this point though. If dungeons were ever revisited, I would rather see some of the trash mobs that you can skip removed from the dungeons, but remove the ability to skip past all of the remaining mobs in the dungeon. Considering people skip them anyhow, its not like content that players played would be removed. Don’t remove all of them, maybe 1/4-1/2, and only if the rest were made so you can’t skip them.

Obtena.7952:

Some people think the same about other things in the game too … but those things aren’t removed either. Being ‘pointless and boring’ are clearly not reasons to remove content. Anyways, as you already mentioned, which you seem to be completely ignoring at your convenience now … there is what Anet intended, and it isn’t to put content in, just to take it out later. So removing the mobs isn’t a solution to the problem in the first place, it’s to make those mobs not pointless and boring.

See .. my problem with your thread is that you don’t really care about anything except having a faster, more convenient path to dungeon loot, which is already easy as all get out as it is and why I made the joke about removing the boss and clicking a button to get loot. The thread itself is a joke because anyone that wants to see a healthier dungeon content and community is not advocating the removal of content from dungeons. I think your motives are not about dungeons being better, I think they are about you getting more loot easier and faster.

If it has affected the content’s popularity, of course that’s a main issue and needs to be changed. It had happened in every MMORPG, Anet’s intention didn’t work well especially since years have passed and people’s taste has changed, the reward was also another issue.

Trash mobs that you can skip have affected the popularity? I don’t doubt that to some extent, that’s true but are trash mobs such a significant factor that THIS is THE thing that needs immediate attention so people can enjoy dungeons? I think there are much bigger and more significant reasons to what makes dungeons less popular than this. I mean, let’s be honest here … trash mobs are AT BEST, a minor inconvenience that even moderately capable players can avoid.

Frankly, I don’t think the people that run dungeons are the same players that the game was meant to appeal to in the first place. I won’t label them but nothing the casual player experiences in their ‘comfort zone’ of the open world prepares them for what they find in dungeons … and that’s going to be unappealing to that level of player. Trash mob level difficulty bring familiarity for every level of player, even if they are annoying for highly capable people.

So no, I don’t believe that just removing trash mobs is a solution to anything other than moving dungeon runners closer to an open world boss kind of situation which is simply fast/easy loot. I think that as Ori says, some could be removed, but that’s not really what you are talking about here. I don’t think you can just remove trash mobs without doing something ELSE to make dungeons at a level where they retain some appealing factor for players than want something more than a fat paycheck at the end.

Just blue sky thinking here … what kinds of threads would we be seeing if the trash was removed … but their was a JP or some other non-fighting challenge put in their place? It would be interesting to see how players annoyed by trash would respond to such a thing. I mean, I don’t think that wouldn’t add interest to a certain kind of player but as we know, many see this as simply an inconvenience as well … so should Anet just remove anything any subset of players thinks is an inconvenience in the way of the end goal of the dungeon? Think about that. Honestly, dungeons NEED to be more than just 1) kill boss 2) get loot. That’s why they are such a failure IMO, because they are a “remove trash mobs” step away from being exactly that.

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Obtena.7952:

Again, you miss the point. You hinted at intentions. That’s what is important. Do you think it’s Anet’s intention to remove mobs from dungeons? Did you actually think if Anet is really concerned if people do dungeons or not, given the fact that they haven’t done anything to them in so long?

The solution here isn’t just to remove the things you don’t like. That’s not going to make dungeons popular again. If anything, removing content should make the rewards smaller. If it’s just a boss at the end of a tunnel, it shouldn’t be any more interesting or rewarding than an open world boss. That’s the essence of your suggestion.

Why not? Killing trash mobs are pointless and boring.

Some people think the same about other things in the game too … but those things aren’t removed either. Being ‘pointless and boring’ are clearly not reasons to remove content. Anyways, as you already mentioned, which you seem to be completely ignoring at your convenience now … there is what Anet intended, and it isn’t to put content in, just to take it out later. So removing the mobs isn’t a solution to the problem in the first place, it’s to make those mobs not pointless and boring.

See .. my problem with your thread is that you don’t really care about anything except having a faster, more convenient path to dungeon loot, which is already easy as all get out as it is and why I made the joke about removing the boss and clicking a button to get loot. The thread itself is a joke because anyone that wants to see a healthier dungeon content and community is not advocating the removal of content from dungeons. I think your motives are not about dungeons being better, I think they are about you getting more loot easier and faster.

I do kind of agree with him on this point though. If dungeons were ever revisited, I would rather see some of the trash mobs that you can skip removed from the dungeons, but remove the ability to skip past all of the remaining mobs in the dungeon. Considering people skip them anyhow, its not like content that players played would be removed. Don’t remove all of them, maybe 1/4-1/2, and only if the rest were made so you can’t skip them.

That’s a completely reasonable suggestion … if something ELSE were put in place other than no-challenge trash mobs that you can avoid anyways, then we might have a way forward with dungeon improvements. Frankly, I think Anet missed a big opportunity to make dungeons something better, but not something we already have. Personally, i think that train has left and is long gone now we have fractals and raids.

It’s interesting that Fractals have trash mobs too … but they are far more popular than dungeons are, so I can’t believe that dungeons are unpopular SIMPLY because of trash mobs and that removing them would make a significant improvement to that.

Obtena.7952:

Trash mobs that you can skip have affected the popularity? I don’t doubt that to some extent, that’s true but are trash mobs such a significant factor that THIS is THE thing that needs immediate attention so people can enjoy dungeons? I think there are much bigger and more significant reasons to what makes dungeons less popular than this. I mean, let’s be honest here … trash mobs are AT BEST, a minor inconvenience that even moderately capable players can avoid.

Frankly, I don’t think the people that run dungeons are the same players that the game was meant to appeal to in the first place. I won’t label them but nothing the casual player experiences in their ‘comfort zone’ of the open world prepares them for what they find in dungeons … and that’s going to be unappealing to that level of player. Trash mob level difficulty bring familiarity for every level of player, even if they are annoying for highly capable people.

So no, I don’t believe that just removing trash mobs is a solution to anything other than moving dungeon runners closer to an open world boss kind of situation which is simply fast/easy loot. I think that as Ori says, some could be removed, but that’s not really what you are talking about here. I don’t think you can just remove trash mobs without doing something ELSE to make dungeons at a level where they retain some appealing factor for players than want something more than a fat paycheck at the end.

Just blue sky thinking here … what kinds of threads would we be seeing if the trash was removed … but their was a JP or some other non-fighting challenge put in their place? It would be interesting to see how players annoyed by trash would respond to such a thing. I mean, I don’t think that wouldn’t add interest to a certain kind of player but as we know, many see this as simply an inconvenience as well … so should Anet just remove anything any subset of players thinks is an inconvenience in the way of the end goal of the dungeon? Think about that. Honestly, dungeons NEED to be more than just 1) kill boss 2) get loot. That’s why they are such a failure IMO, because they are a “remove trash mobs” step away from being exactly that.

Yes, ppl don’t do dungeon because of the rewards compare to the difficulty and length.

A lot of the time/effort were wasted at killing/skip trash mobs. They don’t drop anything good as well.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Yea… two fractals in like 3 years and both are made of assets of old content. Great stuff.

Adding assets is the least expensive part of a new dungeon. The encounters are new and I find them a lot of fun. So yes, to me, they are great stuff; sorry that you don’t like them.

It’s not that I don’t like it. It’s the fact that it’s ridiculous few content for such a long time. They advertised fractals as the 5-man content. So, no dungeons anymore and then they dare to put out a mere two fractals made of old assets.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Yea… two fractals in like 3 years and both are made of assets of old content. Great stuff.

Adding assets is the least expensive part of a new dungeon. The encounters are new and I find them a lot of fun. So yes, to me, they are great stuff; sorry that you don’t like them.

It’s not that I don’t like it. It’s the fact that it’s ridiculous few content for such a long time. They advertised fractals as the 5-man content. So, no dungeons anymore and then they dare to put out a mere two fractals made of old assets.

I agree that I would like to see more revamps and more new fractals.

My point is that it doesn’t matter whether they reused assets or not. ANet made a design choice to make Chaos a mash-up of other fractals and to reuse LS1 instances for Nightmare. (Incidentally, there seems to be some player demand to see LS1 return via fractals, especially if it’s that or nothing.)

Fractals were introduced (as were many things in year 1-2) as modular content that would be easier to modify|update|expand and… we’ve hardly seen any evidence of that (speculation: because people got shuffled off Team Fractal onto other projects, losing institutional memory about how to modify|update|expand). So yes, we had reasonable expectations that there would be more to Fractals and especially if they are dropping development of Dungeons.

All the same, let’s not mislead ourselves into thinking that things would be much different if Chaos & Nightmare were totally new, rather than include some older artwork/animations.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Obtena.7952:

Trash mobs that you can skip have affected the popularity? I don’t doubt that to some extent, that’s true but are trash mobs such a significant factor that THIS is THE thing that needs immediate attention so people can enjoy dungeons? I think there are much bigger and more significant reasons to what makes dungeons less popular than this. I mean, let’s be honest here … trash mobs are AT BEST, a minor inconvenience that even moderately capable players can avoid.

Frankly, I don’t think the people that run dungeons are the same players that the game was meant to appeal to in the first place. I won’t label them but nothing the casual player experiences in their ‘comfort zone’ of the open world prepares them for what they find in dungeons … and that’s going to be unappealing to that level of player. Trash mob level difficulty bring familiarity for every level of player, even if they are annoying for highly capable people.

So no, I don’t believe that just removing trash mobs is a solution to anything other than moving dungeon runners closer to an open world boss kind of situation which is simply fast/easy loot. I think that as Ori says, some could be removed, but that’s not really what you are talking about here. I don’t think you can just remove trash mobs without doing something ELSE to make dungeons at a level where they retain some appealing factor for players than want something more than a fat paycheck at the end.

Just blue sky thinking here … what kinds of threads would we be seeing if the trash was removed … but their was a JP or some other non-fighting challenge put in their place? It would be interesting to see how players annoyed by trash would respond to such a thing. I mean, I don’t think that wouldn’t add interest to a certain kind of player but as we know, many see this as simply an inconvenience as well … so should Anet just remove anything any subset of players thinks is an inconvenience in the way of the end goal of the dungeon? Think about that. Honestly, dungeons NEED to be more than just 1) kill boss 2) get loot. That’s why they are such a failure IMO, because they are a “remove trash mobs” step away from being exactly that.

Yes, ppl don’t do dungeon because of the rewards compare to the difficulty and length.

A lot of the time/effort were wasted at killing/skip trash mobs. They don’t drop anything good as well.

That’s EXACTLY my point … you want to make it even less time, effort and difficult … and you also recognize that even now, people don’t do dungeons because of rewards. I mean … how you can you not see what you are asking for is inline with even fewer people being interested in dungeons because logically, it follows that if Anet just eliminate the trash mobs, your rewards have to be inline with that level of easy, fast and effortless activity? I can only shake my head at the fact you don’t see this. if they remove trash, then your rewards shouldn’t be any better than an openworld boss mob.

Obtena.7952:

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Obtena.7952:

Again, you miss the point. You hinted at intentions. That’s what is important. Do you think it’s Anet’s intention to remove mobs from dungeons? Did you actually think if Anet is really concerned if people do dungeons or not, given the fact that they haven’t done anything to them in so long?

The solution here isn’t just to remove the things you don’t like. That’s not going to make dungeons popular again. If anything, removing content should make the rewards smaller. If it’s just a boss at the end of a tunnel, it shouldn’t be any more interesting or rewarding than an open world boss. That’s the essence of your suggestion.

Why not? Killing trash mobs are pointless and boring.

Some people think the same about other things in the game too … but those things aren’t removed either. Being ‘pointless and boring’ are clearly not reasons to remove content. Anyways, as you already mentioned, which you seem to be completely ignoring at your convenience now … there is what Anet intended, and it isn’t to put content in, just to take it out later. So removing the mobs isn’t a solution to the problem in the first place, it’s to make those mobs not pointless and boring.

See .. my problem with your thread is that you don’t really care about anything except having a faster, more convenient path to dungeon loot, which is already easy as all get out as it is and why I made the joke about removing the boss and clicking a button to get loot. The thread itself is a joke because anyone that wants to see a healthier dungeon content and community is not advocating the removal of content from dungeons. I think your motives are not about dungeons being better, I think they are about you getting more loot easier and faster.

I do kind of agree with him on this point though. If dungeons were ever revisited, I would rather see some of the trash mobs that you can skip removed from the dungeons, but remove the ability to skip past all of the remaining mobs in the dungeon. Considering people skip them anyhow, its not like content that players played would be removed. Don’t remove all of them, maybe 1/4-1/2, and only if the rest were made so you can’t skip them.

That’s a completely reasonable suggestion … if something ELSE were put in place other than no-challenge trash mobs that you can avoid anyways, then we might have a way forward with dungeon improvements. Frankly, I think Anet missed a big opportunity to make dungeons something better, but not something we already have. Personally, i think that train has left and is long gone now we have fractals and raids.

It’s interesting that Fractals have trash mobs too … but they are far more popular than dungeons are, so I can’t believe that dungeons are unpopular SIMPLY because of trash mobs and that removing them would make a significant improvement to that.

Can you elaborate on how you think ANet could have made dungeons better, yet still unique?

Perhaps ANet should go in the other direction and make the dungeon mobs EASIER. Currently the perceived problem is that it’s not worth spending time to kill Elite mobs that hit fairly hard (although I’ve always thought this is largely a fault of the zerker meta) and give mediocre loot, if any. So why not make it more appealing to kill those mobs? Reduce all Elites to Veterans, all Champs to Elites and all Legendary foes to Champs unless they are of noteworthy nature. (For instance, Lupicus should always be a Legendary foe.) The final boss at the end of a path will always be a Legendary foe.

With the arrival of elite specs and HoT builds, coupled with more widely available Ascended gear, my experience has been that just one or two good players can easily carry a group of non-80 newbies. This change should mean that good teams can tear through the hordes of Vet mobs in seconds, while providing a decent challenge for PvE players who are just starting to try out the dungeon/Fractal scene.

With a zerker group consisting of 1-2 eles and some other standard stuff (chrono, ps warrior etc.) they go down fairly fast. A group dies within 10 seconds. So why make them easier anyway? Also, the masses do it: we usually kill most mobs in CM dungeon and after 3 paths you have quite a lot of bags and loot which give you the sought after t3-4 mats.

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Obtena.7952:

Again, you miss the point. You hinted at intentions. That’s what is important. Do you think it’s Anet’s intention to remove mobs from dungeons? Did you actually think if Anet is really concerned if people do dungeons or not, given the fact that they haven’t done anything to them in so long?

The solution here isn’t just to remove the things you don’t like. That’s not going to make dungeons popular again. If anything, removing content should make the rewards smaller. If it’s just a boss at the end of a tunnel, it shouldn’t be any more interesting or rewarding than an open world boss. That’s the essence of your suggestion.

Why not? Killing trash mobs are pointless and boring.

Some people think the same about other things in the game too … but those things aren’t removed either. Being ‘pointless and boring’ are clearly not reasons to remove content. Anyways, as you already mentioned, which you seem to be completely ignoring at your convenience now … there is what Anet intended, and it isn’t to put content in, just to take it out later. So removing the mobs isn’t a solution to the problem in the first place, it’s to make those mobs not pointless and boring.

See .. my problem with your thread is that you don’t really care about anything except having a faster, more convenient path to dungeon loot, which is already easy as all get out as it is and why I made the joke about removing the boss and clicking a button to get loot. The thread itself is a joke because anyone that wants to see a healthier dungeon content and community is not advocating the removal of content from dungeons. I think your motives are not about dungeons being better, I think they are about you getting more loot easier and faster.

I do kind of agree with him on this point though. If dungeons were ever revisited, I would rather see some of the trash mobs that you can skip removed from the dungeons, but remove the ability to skip past all of the remaining mobs in the dungeon. Considering people skip them anyhow, its not like content that players played would be removed. Don’t remove all of them, maybe 1/4-1/2, and only if the rest were made so you can’t skip them.

That’s a completely reasonable suggestion … if something ELSE were put in place other than no-challenge trash mobs that you can avoid anyways, then we might have a way forward with dungeon improvements. Frankly, I think Anet missed a big opportunity to make dungeons something better, but not something we already have. Personally, i think that train has left and is long gone now we have fractals and raids.

It’s interesting that Fractals have trash mobs too … but they are far more popular than dungeons are, so I can’t believe that dungeons are unpopular SIMPLY because of trash mobs and that removing them would make a significant improvement to that.

Can you elaborate on how you think ANet could have made dungeons better, yet still unique?

I think they could be better if they had more game elements in them, like JP’s for instance or more dynamic elements like paths that change if you do or don’t do certain things … or some of the things I experienced with SWTOR operations and raids. That still doesn’t make them very unique.

Yea, more elements other than just killing mobs would be nice to have in the dungeons. Unfortunately I think that is the least likely thing to happen to dungeons now