Guild Wars 2

frifox.5283:

With a proper wind-up I got 6,020 DPS, which is a 3% improvement over lazy wind-up. Either way, still not enough to beat power builds.

I really appreciate all the work you have done here.

Final words
This is basically what we expected, however most of us are very happy with it being so close. It really is close enough that when you factor in a mobs toughness and how much kiting (dodging, running around the boss to avoid attacks…etc) that conditions really shine here. In real world game play its probably closer than this. We have seen the various Lupi solo and other Boss solo vids and compared times etc. I don’t think anyone was expecting condi builds to beat power how ever in real world game play mechanics like torment beat power just because how broken they are. You can check the various Liadri videos for evidence of that.

Am I the only one to think that dodging affects both builds almost exactly the same way?

frifox.5283:

With a proper wind-up I got 6,020 DPS, which is a 3% improvement over lazy wind-up. Either way, still not enough to beat power builds.

I feel it’s versus high armour targets where the gap closes a bit more. I have 2:57 berserker abomination kill which from a quick look at youtube only Goku and Luca have beaten with their power builds, and Goku had stacks and bugged signet of might, Luca had stacks and it was pre-ferocity nerf. I’m using exotics, suboptimal runes, no stacks and my longbow only has energy and battle since I use it for Lupicus (I should probably get a battle + smoldering one).

This isn’t to say condis are superior, and I never wanted to argue that … but I feel the gap between condi and direct damage is a little smaller than we think.

Am I the only one to think that dodging affects both builds almost exactly the same way?

Dodging on 30/25 procs stick and move, plus the reckless dodges in berserker actually do decent damage. Dodging on 10/30 is … just a dodge with a pitiful reckless.

maha.7902:

frifox.5283:

With a proper wind-up I got 6,020 DPS, which is a 3% improvement over lazy wind-up. Either way, still not enough to beat power builds.

I feel it’s versus high armour targets where the gap closes a bit more. I have 2:57 berserker abomination kill which from a quick look at youtube only Goku and Luca have beaten with their power builds, and Goku had stacks and bugged signet of might, Luca had stacks and it was pre-ferocity nerf. I’m using exotics, suboptimal runes, no stacks and my longbow only has energy and battle since I use it for Lupicus (I should probably get a battle + smoldering one).

This isn’t to say condis are superior, and I never wanted to argue that … but I feel the gap between condi and direct damage is a little smaller than we think.

Am I the only one to think that dodging affects both builds almost exactly the same way?

Dodging on 30/25 procs stick and move, plus the reckless dodges in berserker actually do decent damage. Dodging on 10/30 is … just a dodge with a pitiful reckless.

Same I never thought that the DPS of condi were superior, but I still think the utility of the condi builds make them much better. Ranged, CC, AOE, Torment, Etc… As well of having more armor and more flexable build options. Overall In my eyes DPS isn’t the only factor and since its so close I think Condi is a clear winner considering the rest of the package.

maha.7902:

This isn’t to say condis are superior, and I never wanted to argue that … but I feel the gap between condi and direct damage is a little smaller than we think.

For a warrior. I’d kill for such high condi pressure from a mesmer. I tried, but no good results. I do believe it’s possible but only if ANet decided to fix Illusionary Elasticity to apply to clones, which given their record is a 0.0001% chance of actually happening :/

Warlord.9074:

I think Condi is a clear winner considering the rest of the package.

That is arguable. My conclusion is that power is the clear winner here and condi builds do have a chance to match power builds dps but only in a few niche situations.

frifox.5283:

That is arguable. My conclusion is that power is the clear winner here and condi builds do have a chance to match power builds dps but only in a few niche situations.

Ya if all you care about is DPS than power is a clear winner. If you care about other things that condi builds do a lot better than power builds its not that clear.

Just as an example I much much prefer farming trash in ore on my condi build than I do with my power build. Things like cleasing ire where conditions are thrown around like crazy in that place the condi build is a clear winner in that zone.

Warlord.9074:

Things like cleasing ire where conditions are thrown around like crazy in that place the condi build is a clear winner in that zone.

We talk about PvE, not WvW. Just as a reminder.

frifox.5283:

maha.7902:

This isn’t to say condis are superior, and I never wanted to argue that … but I feel the gap between condi and direct damage is a little smaller than we think.

For a warrior. I’d kill for such high condi pressure from a mesmer. I tried, but no good results. I do believe it’s possible but only if ANet decided to fix Illusionary Elasticity to apply to clones, which given their record is a 0.0001% chance of actually happening :/

Warlord.9074:

I think Condi is a clear winner considering the rest of the package.

That is arguable. My conclusion is that power is the clear winner here and condi builds do have a chance to match power builds dps but only in a few niche situations.

I’d say one problem is that you want bleeds and burns, and if you want good burn uptime you need staff clones out whereas if you want good bleeds you need duelists out … and you can’t have both. Warrior can have both.

One thing which could push condition damage a bit further is if it’s possible to move a boss around – say Lupicus if you didn’t have to worry about spray and bubbles, if you kept moving him you’d get some pretty strong torment out of it.

We talk about PvE, not WvW. Just as a reminder.

not entirely defending him, but …

cleansing ire gogo

Dalanor.5387:

Warlord.9074:

Things like cleasing ire where conditions are thrown around like crazy in that place the condi build is a clear winner in that zone.

We talk about PvE, not WvW. Just as a reminder.

lol do you farm cursed shore? i have had these conditions cast on me poison, burning, immobile, cripple, bleeding, chill, confusion, etc If I am rounding up a large pack of mobs so i can AOE them most of the times I am getting multiple instances of those. If you solo the meta events where the game spawns huge packs of trash for you to kill and get rich off of they all spam conditions like crazy.

Personally, I just want another viable build in dungeons which actually uses our class mechanic other than EA Axe. I’m having a lot of fun with a 0/6/0/4/4 GS-a/m, which seems to at least theoretically do about the same DPS as EA Axe, but with a few extras.

So if s/s-LB is a good alternative as well, more the merrier.

(At least until we get something to replace the absolute failure of game designing that is Berserker’s Power)

Xae Isareth.1364:

Personally, I just want another viable build in dungeons which actually uses our class mechanic other than EA Axe. I’m having a lot of fun with a 0/6/0/4/4 GS-a/m, which seems to at least theoretically do about the same DPS as EA Axe, but with a few extras.

So if s/s-LB is a good alternative as well, more the merrier.

(At least until we get something to replace the absolute failure of game designing that is Berserker’s Power)

Imo warrior has the best class mechanic currently. It promotes both keeping or spending adrenaline, depending on build. And it fills up so fast, it makes my necro cry.

Dalanor.5387:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Personally, I just want another viable build in dungeons which actually uses our class mechanic other than EA Axe. I’m having a lot of fun with a 0/6/0/4/4 GS-a/m, which seems to at least theoretically do about the same DPS as EA Axe, but with a few extras.

So if s/s-LB is a good alternative as well, more the merrier.

(At least until we get something to replace the absolute failure of game designing that is Berserker’s Power)

Imo warrior has the best class mechanic currently. It promotes both keeping or spending adrenaline, depending on build. And it fills up so fast, it makes my necro cry.

What build that uses Berserker’s Power (ie a non-EA build) actually promotes using your class mechanic at all?

I’m actually really struggling to call 1 skill a class mechanic to begin with. I know the adrenaline mechanic went through quite a few changes during development, so it seems as Anet just went ‘ah, screw it, we give up’ and just tacked 1 random skill on as ‘class mechanic’ to warriors.

Did a berserker abom solo today (full ascended, str runes, bloodlust stacks, walled whirlwinds, ignoring dodging most of the time so I can finish my hundred blades) and got 2:59. Would have been like 2:56 if I didn’t get knocked back at the end (my latest condi, like I think I said before was 2:57).

I also did belka and got a 2:50 versus my 3:27 condi. That surprises me since power basically has zero ramp up time whereas with my condi kill after running out to heal I would have to build up conditions all over again.

Seems that fully optimised condi versus fully optimised power, power is probably ~10% stronger if both are using almost flawless rotations and with minimal interruption.

maha.7902:

Did a berserker abom solo today (full ascended, str runes, bloodlust stacks, walled whirlwinds, ignoring dodging most of the time so I can finish my hundred blades) and got 2:59. Would have been like 2:56 if I didn’t get knocked back at the end (my latest condi, like I think I said before was 2:57).

I also did belka and got a 2:50 versus my 3:27 condi. That surprises me since power basically has zero ramp up time whereas with my condi kill after running out to heal I would have to build up conditions all over again.

Seems that fully optimised condi versus fully optimised power, power is probably ~10% stronger if both are using almost flawless rotations and with minimal interruption.

Well yah to frifox.5283 benefit he tried to be as fair as possible. Which I respect that he was attempting to make fair tests. The other side of that is he knows this as well as we do that his tests were not made with a fully optimized condition build or fully optimized rotations. Still based on his tests It gives us a good sense of where these builds are at comparatively. I think we all can look at what he did and didn’t do in his tests and speculate what the tests would look like if everything was perfect or as good as it could be. Which should be no surprise that you were able to get very closer times.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Dalanor.5387:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Personally, I just want another viable build in dungeons which actually uses our class mechanic other than EA Axe. I’m having a lot of fun with a 0/6/0/4/4 GS-a/m, which seems to at least theoretically do about the same DPS as EA Axe, but with a few extras.

So if s/s-LB is a good alternative as well, more the merrier.

(At least until we get something to replace the absolute failure of game designing that is Berserker’s Power)

Imo warrior has the best class mechanic currently. It promotes both keeping or spending adrenaline, depending on build. And it fills up so fast, it makes my necro cry.

What build that uses Berserker’s Power (ie a non-EA build) actually promotes using your class mechanic at all?

I’m actually really struggling to call 1 skill a class mechanic to begin with. I know the adrenaline mechanic went through quite a few changes during development, so it seems as Anet just went ‘ah, screw it, we give up’ and just tacked 1 random skill on as ‘class mechanic’ to warriors.

How do you say it … ignorance is bliss?
Look at Axe and Mace mh, Longbow, Hammer or sometimes even Sword. Their F1 skills are great, but not all usable in PvE indeed. Hell, i’ve seen some really stupid troll builds with Kill shot. Cleansing ire makes a good use of adrenaline actually, meanwhile Berserkers power promotes to just sit on your adrenaline. I find it great, not so forced and gimmicky as life force.

Lol ^ yes pretty much I wouldn’t consider sitting on adrenaline play style good game design or good use of a class mechanic. That is not the players fault by the way. Its what we use cuz it works in PVE but its bad game design.

Idealy warriors should have meaning full burst skills on all weapons and reasons to use them and rewarded for doing so. There is no reward for using burst skills in PVE and the warrior is basically penalized for doing so I wouldn’t call that good lol

maha.7902:

I’d say one problem is that you want bleeds and burns, and if you want good burn uptime you need staff clones out whereas if you want good bleeds you need duelists out … and you can’t have both. Warrior can have both.

I know mes enough that I may get away with just theorycrafting. Lets assume 3 duelists, 2/3/5/0/4 build, full rabid gear, cm runes, bursting/strength sigils, and koi cakes. Duelists should be pushing about 17 bleed stacks in that situation. Combined with sword mainhand vs a 2600 armor target you’re looking at about 4,340 total DPS with duelists responsible for 82% of it. While this isn’t too bad there is a big problem – if even a single duelist dies your dps will go to @#%.

I did play with staff version and the dps heavily depended on me/clones and our positioning. At ~600 range I was barely keeping up burning and only ~7 bleed stacks When in melee, thanks to bounces, I kept perma burn and about 15 bleeds (was roughly 4.2k dps). ANet claimed last patch that they would fix IE to apply to clones but in reality they did not. I do believe that once (and if) they finally get their kitten together and fix the trait I will be able to keep perma burn and 25 bleed (and possibly 25 might, staff projectiles grant might/burn/bleed on rng basis) on a target with just staff and clones. Once that happens, I should be able to reach condi dps comparable to a warrior.

Dalanor.5387:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Dalanor.5387:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Personally, I just want another viable build in dungeons which actually uses our class mechanic other than EA Axe. I’m having a lot of fun with a 0/6/0/4/4 GS-a/m, which seems to at least theoretically do about the same DPS as EA Axe, but with a few extras.

So if s/s-LB is a good alternative as well, more the merrier.

(At least until we get something to replace the absolute failure of game designing that is Berserker’s Power)

Imo warrior has the best class mechanic currently. It promotes both keeping or spending adrenaline, depending on build. And it fills up so fast, it makes my necro cry.

What build that uses Berserker’s Power (ie a non-EA build) actually promotes using your class mechanic at all?

I’m actually really struggling to call 1 skill a class mechanic to begin with. I know the adrenaline mechanic went through quite a few changes during development, so it seems as Anet just went ‘ah, screw it, we give up’ and just tacked 1 random skill on as ‘class mechanic’ to warriors.

How do you say it … ignorance is bliss?
Look at Axe and Mace mh, Longbow, Hammer or sometimes even Sword. Their F1 skills are great, but not all usable in PvE indeed. Hell, i’ve seen some really stupid troll builds with Kill shot. Cleansing ire makes a good use of adrenaline actually, meanwhile Berserkers power promotes to just sit on your adrenaline. I find it great, not so forced and gimmicky as life force.

Yes, they got potential. That decision of whether to kill stuff quick or sit on BP for sustain or use cleansing ire came up a lot in QG, but the problem is that almost the entire of everything else doesn’t involve that decision.

They are great F1 skills, but all of that gets blown to oblivion when faced against a massive 15% DPS increase on Berserker’s Power in almost all other aspects of PvE because its just not worth it. I don’t even think I need to argue for this.

The developers just didn’t seem to think it through when they made the content.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Dalanor.5387:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Dalanor.5387:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Personally, I just want another viable build in dungeons which actually uses our class mechanic other than EA Axe. I’m having a lot of fun with a 0/6/0/4/4 GS-a/m, which seems to at least theoretically do about the same DPS as EA Axe, but with a few extras.

So if s/s-LB is a good alternative as well, more the merrier.

(At least until we get something to replace the absolute failure of game designing that is Berserker’s Power)

Imo warrior has the best class mechanic currently. It promotes both keeping or spending adrenaline, depending on build. And it fills up so fast, it makes my necro cry.

What build that uses Berserker’s Power (ie a non-EA build) actually promotes using your class mechanic at all?

I’m actually really struggling to call 1 skill a class mechanic to begin with. I know the adrenaline mechanic went through quite a few changes during development, so it seems as Anet just went ‘ah, screw it, we give up’ and just tacked 1 random skill on as ‘class mechanic’ to warriors.

How do you say it … ignorance is bliss?
Look at Axe and Mace mh, Longbow, Hammer or sometimes even Sword. Their F1 skills are great, but not all usable in PvE indeed. Hell, i’ve seen some really stupid troll builds with Kill shot. Cleansing ire makes a good use of adrenaline actually, meanwhile Berserkers power promotes to just sit on your adrenaline. I find it great, not so forced and gimmicky as life force.

Yes, they got potential. That decision of whether to kill stuff quick or sit on BP for sustain or use cleansing ire came up a lot in QG, but the problem is that almost the entire of everything else doesn’t involve that decision.

They are great F1 skills, but all of that gets blown to oblivion when faced against a massive 15% DPS increase on Berserker’s Power in almost all other aspects of PvE because its just not worth it. I don’t even think I need to argue for this.

The developers just didn’t seem to think it through when they made the content.

Thats what im talking about. The mechanic itself has two kind of uses. Use up the resource or sitting on it to get some passive benefit. Only thief and necro has some similar traits (obviously), but warriors are way superior in this.

Berserkers power 15% dmg increase in itself is great. Thieves got +10 above 6 ini, and necromancers get +5% (lol …) when LF is above 50%. But in PvE, you rarely use your F1 skills, because your best burst and sustained dps options are on weapon skills. Not to mention, GS F1 gives only fury, which applied to you from various sources anyway.
Adrenaline health also promotes to get as much adrenaline as you can. Heightened focus is the same, but its out of the question now.

Meanwhile Cleansing ire actively promotes to use up your adrenaline, but in PvE its really really really rare that you need it, its more of a PvP / WvW trait where conditions are spammed at you.
And with other traits you can fill it up so fast, its ridicolous. Its encourage spamming.
If a thief wastes his resources, he is kinda screwed up. Same with necro and their stuff is gated behind a cooldown too. A few patches ago they were even punished for having less LF and reduced their damage.

Even if you need to use your character in different game modes, there is an optionfor the class how to handle its class mechanic. So i say it again. Warriors have a great classmechanic.
Dont be the typical warrior who cries over everything how his class sucks, when in reality its one of the two most balanced out classes.

spoj.9672:

Dalanor.5387:

I get it, warriors benefit from self buffing, but necro? Oo

3 signets (signet mastery) + BiP + battle.

Ill be testing it out once i have enough CM tokens. :P

I was trying this out, assuming a condi build, and I find that the multiple signets really are pretty bad. You’re better off packing Epidemic for condi cleaves. The only signet I run is Spite.

Furthermore, I was comparing CM runes to a 4/2 mix that gets 20% more condi duration for a 100% condi duration build, and I found that while you get more raw dps from your condis with CM runs, you support your team more through exponential Weakness uptime growth. (SoS +100% into Epidemic +100% uptime) You can keep Weakness up basically forever on a large number of trash mobs. Maybe not as useful as before Dredge nerf, but still good when things go bad in certain areas. The bonus Might duration for SoS and BiP is pretty great, still, but it’s nowhere near as good as any other Might generating class… I almost feel like it’s just not worth it for a Necro. I’m still trying out some other stuff, too, but I’m genuinely curious to see where Necro fits into a condi build moving forward.

Some other stuff I’ve been trying in PvE is actually interesting on a Necro. I’ve been running a hybrid with 100% Rampager gear with 100% condi duration (because this gives great returns when you can’t maximize condi damage) and it hits like a truck. I’ve been running D/W and using the numerous procs from Warhorn 5 and auto attacks to trigger bleeds. Interestingly, even DS4 has its applications here due to the number of aoe pulses. The other advantage to this build is that you can Epidemic huge duration condis (like Weakness and Vuln) and ‘steal’ other players’ passive burns with your condi damage and turn them into actual decent DPS on a group. It’s by no means optimal for speed clearing anything, but it is surprisingly effective, and exceptional in keeping pubs alive during encounters where they would otherwise die.

All good stuff to think about. I’ve long since given up having my Necro use Berserker gear because “If I’m going to do power dps, I’m going to swap to a better class for it”. Instead, I use my Necro as a yolo condi/hybrid creature in pubs just to try stuff out.

Well nothing lasts long enough to justify condi in a group. This build is for solo lupi so i wont need epidemic. Plague signet is a instant cast 3 stacks of might. Sigil of battle maintains 9 stacks of might with runes of aristocracy. So its actually pretty amazing for might. Plus signet of vampirism gives 6 stacks of might.

Fair point. I understand that in the case of a solo for GL those things could totally be legit. I’m also sort of theorycrafting random stuff I use in pub dungeons lacking dps and for places like Triple Trouble where you can condi cleave Husks. Epidemic is also neat in certain Gauntlet encounters and when small-group killing certain bosses in the Pavilion.

It would be interesting to see some kind of plot of condi duration versus condi damage and see where one becomes more valuable than the other in terms of net dps under identical circumstances.

@#$% me this is getting ridiculous. Only my 3rd day playing a condi war and already near-afk facerolling the content.

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hoZbQkK_7c

I am totally digging the Condi necro! I had heard about it, but never really seen much of a discussion on the matter. Right now I’m using a mix of condition damage dungeon armor with krait runes, scepter/dagger and staff. Been thinking of taking this one on a solo run and playing around with it. Thanks Maha! you rock!

Some Comparison between condi/burst

http://youtu.be/mLTj1VMGfKc

Condition takes time to build up its potential
while burst has the higher average from the start.
So the longer the boss fight takes on a solo the more conditions shine.

Solo pve condition builds do fine and at times surpass power builds.
The issues begin when someone else joins the equation. Once you have a 2nd player you will hit the 25 condi cap and have duration conditions overwritten.
If you have 25 stacks of bleeds for 3k dps that’s 3k dps no matter how many condi users are attacking.

Power does not have this issue at all.

Bart Weird.9671:

Some Comparison between condi/burst

http://youtu.be/mLTj1VMGfKc

Condition takes time to build up its potential
while burst has the higher average from the start.
So the longer the boss fight takes on a solo the more conditions shine.

All I see in those videos are two poorly exectured, suboptimal rotations, showing exactly nothing.

try to beat a veteran faster on conditions thn on a dmg oriented spec
otherwise stop the qq u just prove my point

Bart Weird.9671:

try to beat a veteran faster on conditions thn on a dmg oriented spec
otherwise stop the qq u just prove my point

Isn’t it you who is qq’ing? And by the way, you have no point. At least none written in english.