Guild Wars 2

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Quite the opposite. Im talking about the difference between a level 11 and the same character at level 80 being scaled down to level 11.

What are you talking about? You mentioned Jade Maw and Shaman in Fractals, doing 100 dmg to them but when you got 80, doing 1000 damage more.

Don’t believe I understand what you’re talking about because your level 80 character will not be downscaled to level 11 when fighting Jade Maw or Shaman.

OH! Im talking about the Frozen Maw chain in Wayfarer.

Well what was the time difference? When was the thief being level that you’re comparing it too? What factors were involved during either fight? Were others applying vulnerability? Were might stacks involved? AFAIK, using some of my weapons in the same range on my lvl 80 elementalist, I’m hitting for around 200-400.

Most of the time he has full vulnerability stacks on him. As in from the 1000 odd times ive done it, he has full stacks of vulnerability on him for the duration of the event. I personally put on about 15 stacks of vulnerability as part of my pre damage output before I do the 3 burst skill, or less if hes already at max cap. Might varies. Its not this, ive already taken it into consideration. 6 stacks of might, last I have checked, doesn’t increase damage output buy over 1000%. The claim that downscaling is working is completely false. It might have made it a little closer recently, I agree, but it was already so much easier to do events and dungeons on an 80 than it was on a low level char.

Oand Im talking about when the same ability on the same character doing the same event at level 11 compared to the same character at 80 and being downscaled to level 11.

Think about it though. What do you think would happen if they made downscaling was accurate? You would have a bunch of fully level and geared 80s coming in complaining about the difficulty in lower level events/dungeons. I experienced the upscaling in WvW as well. This is well off too.

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Quite the opposite. Im talking about the difference between a level 11 and the same character at level 80 being scaled down to level 11.

What are you talking about? You mentioned Jade Maw and Shaman in Fractals, doing 100 dmg to them but when you got 80, doing 1000 damage more.

Don’t believe I understand what you’re talking about because your level 80 character will not be downscaled to level 11 when fighting Jade Maw or Shaman.

OH! Im talking about the Frozen Maw chain in Wayfarer.

Well what was the time difference? When was the thief being level that you’re comparing it too? What factors were involved during either fight? Were others applying vulnerability? Were might stacks involved? AFAIK, using some of my weapons in the same range on my lvl 80 elementalist, I’m hitting for around 200-400.

Most of the time he has full vulnerability stacks on him. As in from the 1000 odd times ive done it, he has full stacks of vulnerability on him for the duration of the event. I personally put on about 15 stacks of vulnerability as part of my pre damage output before I do the 3 burst skill, or less if hes already at max cap. Might varies. Its not this, ive already taken it into consideration. 6 stacks of might, last I have checked, doesn’t increase damage output buy over 1000%. The claim that downscaling is working is completely false. It might have made it a little closer recently, I agree, but it was already so much easier to do events and dungeons on an 80 than it was on a low level char.

Remember that at this point, you are downscaling to level 11, where you have only 1 point in traits and no traited abilities. At level 35, the lowest level you should see in AC, players have 25 points in traits, meaning they have access to several traited abilities. And most sub-80 charas that run dungeons are higher than 35.

Extending the downscaling discussion below what is seen in dungeons is outside the relevance of this conversation, I think.

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Quite the opposite. Im talking about the difference between a level 11 and the same character at level 80 being scaled down to level 11.

What are you talking about? You mentioned Jade Maw and Shaman in Fractals, doing 100 dmg to them but when you got 80, doing 1000 damage more.

Don’t believe I understand what you’re talking about because your level 80 character will not be downscaled to level 11 when fighting Jade Maw or Shaman.

OH! Im talking about the Frozen Maw chain in Wayfarer.

Well what was the time difference? When was the thief being level that you’re comparing it too? What factors were involved during either fight? Were others applying vulnerability? Were might stacks involved? AFAIK, using some of my weapons in the same range on my lvl 80 elementalist, I’m hitting for around 200-400.

Most of the time he has full vulnerability stacks on him. As in from the 1000 odd times ive done it, he has full stacks of vulnerability on him for the duration of the event. I personally put on about 15 stacks of vulnerability as part of my pre damage output before I do the 3 burst skill, or less if hes already at max cap. Might varies. Its not this, ive already taken it into consideration. 6 stacks of might, last I have checked, doesn’t increase damage output buy over 1000%. The claim that downscaling is working is completely false. It might have made it a little closer recently, I agree, but it was already so much easier to do events and dungeons on an 80 than it was on a low level char.

There’s lots of factors involved though, like what were the factors when your thief was lvl 11? When was this? Was there any major updates to professions between that time and now? As for how easy or hard events are for lvl 80s/non-80s, familiarity with the profession also plays a role. How good were you with a thief back then? Have you optimized your rotation? Also remember, we’re talking about a level 11 character with 1-stat aspect gear and 1 trait point and minimal utilities. There aren’t any lvl 11 instances AFAIK. Dungeons start at level 30 which gives at least 20 skill points and up to 2 traits/2minor traits.

There’s a lot of factors involved and I’d prefer to go on hard numbers rather than just what you vaguely remembered at some point in time…

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Quite the opposite. Im talking about the difference between a level 11 and the same character at level 80 being scaled down to level 11.

What are you talking about? You mentioned Jade Maw and Shaman in Fractals, doing 100 dmg to them but when you got 80, doing 1000 damage more.

Don’t believe I understand what you’re talking about because your level 80 character will not be downscaled to level 11 when fighting Jade Maw or Shaman.

OH! Im talking about the Frozen Maw chain in Wayfarer.

Well what was the time difference? When was the thief being level that you’re comparing it too? What factors were involved during either fight? Were others applying vulnerability? Were might stacks involved? AFAIK, using some of my weapons in the same range on my lvl 80 elementalist, I’m hitting for around 200-400.

Most of the time he has full vulnerability stacks on him. As in from the 1000 odd times ive done it, he has full stacks of vulnerability on him for the duration of the event. I personally put on about 15 stacks of vulnerability as part of my pre damage output before I do the 3 burst skill, or less if hes already at max cap. Might varies. Its not this, ive already taken it into consideration. 6 stacks of might, last I have checked, doesn’t increase damage output buy over 1000%. The claim that downscaling is working is completely false. It might have made it a little closer recently, I agree, but it was already so much easier to do events and dungeons on an 80 than it was on a low level char.

There’s lots of factors involved though, like what were the factors when your thief was lvl 11? When was this? Was there any major updates to professions between that time and now? As for how easy or hard events are for lvl 80s/non-80s, familiarity with the profession also plays a role. How good were you with a thief back then? Have you optimized your rotation? Also remember, we’re talking about a level 11 character with 1-stat aspect gear and 1 trait point and minimal utilities. There aren’t any lvl 11 instances AFAIK. Dungeons start at level 30 which gives at least 20 skill points and up to 2 traits/2minor traits.

There’s a lot of factors involved and I’d prefer to go on hard numbers rather than just what you vaguely remembered at some point in time…

I created my thief about a week ago. Took me about 5 days to level to 80. So no major updates I believe. Ill do the math tonight, but Im pretty sure Im not going to get anywhere near 1000% damage out of my trait lines.

Diviner.7405:

GabGar.4962:

Diviner.7405:

SynfulChaot.3169:

There is a stat difference, yes. With dynamic level adjustment, however, that difference is minimal to non-existant provided both charas are in top gear for their level.

Here is the thing though. No player under level 80 is in their top gear for their level. Nobody spends money on top gear for their level because that gear will become obsolete at each level up. So what this mean is sure a lvl 35 will have some lvl 35 gear, but most of their gear will not be lvl 35 simply because they cannot afford it or choose not to buy it because it will become obsolete quickly.

The people who can afford top gear every level up do not do this, because they could just spend money to level to 80 off of crafting and could use the money to buy top gear at lvl 80.

When im leveling I always carry the best possible gear for my level, so no, your stament is not true.

If you are always caring the best gear for your level, then you could have been lvl 80 with best gear for the amount of money you spent on your gear changes.

Therefore, you are acting illogical by breaking my statement and your argument is invalid.

Illogical statements =/= counterargument

Yes I have 6 80s all with exotic gear, explain to me how having the best possible gear at level its Illogical? Are you sure we play the same game? You can buy master/rare gear very cheap in the trader, and when you play dungeons and leveling you get tons of items you can salvage, so you will end with tons of crafting materials of all kind. Where is the illogical in that?

Illogical is saying that a lvl 80 will have better skill to play a dungeon than a lvl 35 just because the lvl, scavengers kill the same a lvl 80 than a 35, how thats illogical?

a lvl 80 will probably have more stun breaks in the right bar … so its less likely to die to scavengers

And yes a skilled lvl 35 is often less efficient than a random lvl 80 in exotics in dungeons.

LordByron.8369:

a lvl 80 will probably have more stun breaks in the right bar … so its less likely to die to scavengers

And yes a skilled lvl 35 is often less efficient than a random lvl 80 in exotics in dungeons.

A level 35 and a level 80 have access to the same skills, meaning same access to stun breaks. And a more skilled player will always trump a less skilled player, regardless of level. I will always take skill over level.

And a skilled level 80 will always trump a equally skilled level 35, whats your point?

Fact is it is much more likely that a 80 knows what hes doing then a 35.

I really don’t get all this whining about 80s not wanting to group with you when you are on lower level chars, you keep argueing that low levels are just as good, so why not group with people your own level? instead of getting upset that higher levels wont group with you?

And its not the abilities or gear that makes the biggest diffrence 35-80 its the traits.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

And a skilled level 80 will always trump a equally skilled level 35, whats your point?

Fact is it is much more likely that a 80 knows what hes doing then a 35.

I really don’t get all this whining about 80s not wanting to group with you when you are on lower level chars, you keep argueing that low levels are just as good, so why not group with people your own level? instead of getting upset that higher levels wont group with you?

And its not the abilities or gear that makes the biggest diffrence 35-80 its the traits.

We are not whining we just say that people who wants a only 80 group dont know how to play and they need to be carry by others, they have the illusion that a group of only 80 will have success, and thats not always the case, a group of skilled players will have success and can do it at the same speed at any level.

The illusion and arguments to want an only lvl 80 group is causing bad attitude between some players and its against the spirit of this game.

SynfulChaot.3169:

LordByron.8369:

a lvl 80 will probably have more stun breaks in the right bar … so its less likely to die to scavengers

And yes a skilled lvl 35 is often less efficient than a random lvl 80 in exotics in dungeons.

A level 35 and a level 80 have access to the same skills, meaning same access to stun breaks. And a more skilled player will always trump a less skilled player, regardless of level. I will always take skill over level.

i play with pugs since release….
And its not so…..
not to mention:
-35 skillpoints are not enough as i said to unlock enough skills
-damage output and sustainable differs a lot
-traits

The main issue is this forum is full of people that wants to “talk of their skill” so its just full of l2p everywhere.

You can find an L2p in any post in this section….
See: thing is bugged because this and that => L2p

Now the problems are:
-a lvl 80 in exotic+traits is extremely more efficient than the same player at 35.
-a lvl 80 will probbaly have decent equipment a lvl 35 will be saving so will be in blue/green
-a lvl 35 dungeons gives almost the same reward than a lvl 80

That is why people wants lvl 80.
If they reduced rewards/difficulty of lower levels dungeons finally low level players would have content designed for them to enjoy.

Until then most dungeons are lvl 80 farming area because you have to prove “how dedicated you are” farming a lvl 35 dungeon rather than a high lvl fotm or dungeon to earn money for precursors etc….

LordByron.8369:

SynfulChaot.3169:

LordByron.8369:

a lvl 80 will probably have more stun breaks in the right bar … so its less likely to die to scavengers

And yes a skilled lvl 35 is often less efficient than a random lvl 80 in exotics in dungeons.

A level 35 and a level 80 have access to the same skills, meaning same access to stun breaks. And a more skilled player will always trump a less skilled player, regardless of level. I will always take skill over level.

i play with pugs since release….
And its not so…..
not to mention:
-35 skillpoints are not enough as i said to unlock enough skills
-damage output and sustainable differs a lot
-traits

The main issue is this forum is full of people that wants to “talk of their skill” so its just full of l2p everywhere.

You can find an L2p in any post in this section….
See: thing is bugged because this and that => L2p

Now the problems are:
-a lvl 80 in exotic+traits is extremely more efficient than the same player at 35.
-a lvl 80 will probbaly have decent equipment a lvl 35 will be saving so will be in blue/green
-a lvl 35 dungeons gives almost the same reward than a lvl 80

That is why people wants lvl 80.
If they reduced rewards/difficulty of lower levels dungeons finally low level players would have content designed for them to enjoy.

Until then most dungeons are lvl 80 farming area because you have to prove “how dedicated you are” farming a lvl 35 dungeon rather than a high lvl fotm or dungeon to earn money for precursors etc….

Explain how a lvl 80 with exotic gear is more efficient than a lvl 35 with the best gear for his lvl. FALSE. The only exception is traits, and for AC? such an easy dungeon? come on be serious…

GabGar.4962:

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

And a skilled level 80 will always trump a equally skilled level 35, whats your point?

Fact is it is much more likely that a 80 knows what hes doing then a 35.

I really don’t get all this whining about 80s not wanting to group with you when you are on lower level chars, you keep argueing that low levels are just as good, so why not group with people your own level? instead of getting upset that higher levels wont group with you?

And its not the abilities or gear that makes the biggest diffrence 35-80 its the traits.

We are not whining we just say that people who wants a only 80 group dont know how to play and they need to be carry by others, they have the illusion that a group of only 80 will have success, and thats not always the case, a group of skilled players will have success and can do it at the same speed at any level.

The illusion and arguments to want an only lvl 80 group is causing bad attitude between some players and its against the spirit of this game.

Yeah, you are pretty much whining… people who want a 80 only grp, wants as much to the table as they themselves bring, and no they are under the “illusion” that a all 80 group has a higher chance of sucsess not to mention it is likely to go considerably faster. A “illusion” that is spot on i might add.

Whats causes a “bad” attitude between players is people with en entitlement issues, who for some insane reason belive they are entitled to join what ever group they wish to join.

Edit: Sure I will explain how a 80 with Exotic’s gear is more efficient then a lvl 35 with the best lvl 35 gear.

It should be pretty obvious, the exotic tier is not availible at 35, as such a 35 can never reach the stats a 80 wearing exotics is at.

At 80 you get scaled down to 35 version of you gear yes, but that gear is still EXOTIC.

Its like saying a 35 in masterwork has the same stats as a 35 in rares.

Not to mention triple stat items are not availible at 35, another big diffrence.

Oh, and stop acting like traits arn’t a big deal, infact in many/most cases traits have a bigger impact on performance then stats do..

And what the hell does AC being easy have to do with anything? the point is you are not at optimal performance pulling along a 35.

The arguement is not that a 35 can’t get trough AC, its that a 35 does not have the same potential as a level 80 in AC.

I think anyone who is “80 only” when it comes to things like AC/CM/TA/SE basically has no idea how to fight and needs to be carried.

I take lowbies through these things all the time.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

GabGar.4962:

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

And a skilled level 80 will always trump a equally skilled level 35, whats your point?

Fact is it is much more likely that a 80 knows what hes doing then a 35.

I really don’t get all this whining about 80s not wanting to group with you when you are on lower level chars, you keep argueing that low levels are just as good, so why not group with people your own level? instead of getting upset that higher levels wont group with you?

And its not the abilities or gear that makes the biggest diffrence 35-80 its the traits.

We are not whining we just say that people who wants a only 80 group dont know how to play and they need to be carry by others, they have the illusion that a group of only 80 will have success, and thats not always the case, a group of skilled players will have success and can do it at the same speed at any level.

The illusion and arguments to want an only lvl 80 group is causing bad attitude between some players and its against the spirit of this game.

Yeah, you are pretty much whining… people who want a 80 only grp, wants as much to the table as they themselves bring, and no they are under the “illusion” that a all 80 group has a higher chance of sucsess not to mention it is likely to go considerably faster. A “illusion” that is spot on i might add.

Whats causes a “bad” attitude between players is people with en entitlement issues, who for some insane reason belive they are entitled to join what ever group they wish to join.

I finished AC with only 40s at the same speed than a lvl 80 group, thats false, an illusion caused by the experience in other games.

And for me I dont group with “only 80s” even with my chars lvl 80, that means the run will be not fun and full of resets and wipes.

GabGar.4962:

LordByron.8369:

SynfulChaot.3169:

LordByron.8369:

a lvl 80 will probably have more stun breaks in the right bar … so its less likely to die to scavengers

And yes a skilled lvl 35 is often less efficient than a random lvl 80 in exotics in dungeons.

A level 35 and a level 80 have access to the same skills, meaning same access to stun breaks. And a more skilled player will always trump a less skilled player, regardless of level. I will always take skill over level.

i play with pugs since release….
And its not so…..
not to mention:
-35 skillpoints are not enough as i said to unlock enough skills
-damage output and sustainable differs a lot
-traits

The main issue is this forum is full of people that wants to “talk of their skill” so its just full of l2p everywhere.

You can find an L2p in any post in this section….
See: thing is bugged because this and that => L2p

Now the problems are:
-a lvl 80 in exotic+traits is extremely more efficient than the same player at 35.
-a lvl 80 will probbaly have decent equipment a lvl 35 will be saving so will be in blue/green
-a lvl 35 dungeons gives almost the same reward than a lvl 80

That is why people wants lvl 80.
If they reduced rewards/difficulty of lower levels dungeons finally low level players would have content designed for them to enjoy.

Until then most dungeons are lvl 80 farming area because you have to prove “how dedicated you are” farming a lvl 35 dungeon rather than a high lvl fotm or dungeon to earn money for precursors etc….

Explain how a lvl 80 with exotic gear is more efficient than a lvl 35 with the best gear for his lvl. FALSE. The only exception is traits, and for AC? such an easy dungeon? come on be serious…

as i already said sublvl 80 won t waste money on best equipment….and we all know that…

-traits
-exotic tier (even if downscaled)

The lack of traits leads to a less efficient build also.

If we need to be serious we should stop arguing obvious things since release….
I asked many times to make lvl 35 content designed for lvl 35 and not 80….but elitists just wants to famr them so now don t complain…..

GabGar.4962:

I finished AC with only 40s at the same speed than a lvl 80 group, thats false, an illusion caused by the experience in other games.

And for me I dont group with “only 80s” even with my chars lvl 80, that means the run will be not fun and full of resets and wipes.

this proves my point…
The fact you says “I finished AC with only 40s at the same speed than a lvl 80 Group” without even considering:

-There isn t a set speed
-class/builds matters

You seems to lack real evidence…..

Try to finish cof1 being the most tested, at lvl 75 or even 79 in Yellows
We’ll have much data to compare in temr of speed (both for speeruns than kill everything runs)

GabGar.4962:

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

GabGar.4962:

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

And a skilled level 80 will always trump a equally skilled level 35, whats your point?

Fact is it is much more likely that a 80 knows what hes doing then a 35.

I really don’t get all this whining about 80s not wanting to group with you when you are on lower level chars, you keep argueing that low levels are just as good, so why not group with people your own level? instead of getting upset that higher levels wont group with you?

And its not the abilities or gear that makes the biggest diffrence 35-80 its the traits.

We are not whining we just say that people who wants a only 80 group dont know how to play and they need to be carry by others, they have the illusion that a group of only 80 will have success, and thats not always the case, a group of skilled players will have success and can do it at the same speed at any level.

The illusion and arguments to want an only lvl 80 group is causing bad attitude between some players and its against the spirit of this game.

Yeah, you are pretty much whining… people who want a 80 only grp, wants as much to the table as they themselves bring, and no they are under the “illusion” that a all 80 group has a higher chance of sucsess not to mention it is likely to go considerably faster. A “illusion” that is spot on i might add.

Whats causes a “bad” attitude between players is people with en entitlement issues, who for some insane reason belive they are entitled to join what ever group they wish to join.

I finished AC with only 40s at the same speed than a lvl 80 group, thats false, an illusion caused by the experience in other games.

And for me I dont group with “only 80s” even with my chars lvl 80, that means the run will be not fun and full of resets and wipes.

Yes, and I sneezed so hard that zhaitan got knocked out of the sky..

As for who you choose to group with, that is entirely up to you, do how ever not judge other people for making the opposite choice, and stop coming up with these bs arguements that have absolutely no basis in reality, It makes you look rather silly tbh.

Again, there is this thing called Dynamic Level Adjustment. It was tested months ago here and they found little to no difference between a fully geared 80 and decently geared (greens) 35. With armor, they only found a 10-30 point gain for each stat. Since then, downscaling has been updated and level 80s are further reduced in stats compared to before. Please stop bringing up the gear argument. It has been debunked many times now.

The only arguable point is the difference in traits. A 80 will have access to more traits than a sub-80. Now a skilled player can work with the traits they do have, but there are still some builds that cannot be done well due to the missing trait points. This does not mean that no builds can be done well, just some.

Yes, a skilled 80 will be faster. That is not being argued. But the difference will be small.

LordByron.8369:

GabGar.4962:

LordByron.8369:

SynfulChaot.3169:

LordByron.8369:

a lvl 80 will probably have more stun breaks in the right bar … so its less likely to die to scavengers

And yes a skilled lvl 35 is often less efficient than a random lvl 80 in exotics in dungeons.

A level 35 and a level 80 have access to the same skills, meaning same access to stun breaks. And a more skilled player will always trump a less skilled player, regardless of level. I will always take skill over level.

i play with pugs since release….
And its not so…..
not to mention:
-35 skillpoints are not enough as i said to unlock enough skills
-damage output and sustainable differs a lot
-traits

The main issue is this forum is full of people that wants to “talk of their skill” so its just full of l2p everywhere.

You can find an L2p in any post in this section….
See: thing is bugged because this and that => L2p

Now the problems are:
-a lvl 80 in exotic+traits is extremely more efficient than the same player at 35.
-a lvl 80 will probbaly have decent equipment a lvl 35 will be saving so will be in blue/green
-a lvl 35 dungeons gives almost the same reward than a lvl 80

That is why people wants lvl 80.
If they reduced rewards/difficulty of lower levels dungeons finally low level players would have content designed for them to enjoy.

Until then most dungeons are lvl 80 farming area because you have to prove “how dedicated you are” farming a lvl 35 dungeon rather than a high lvl fotm or dungeon to earn money for precursors etc….

Explain how a lvl 80 with exotic gear is more efficient than a lvl 35 with the best gear for his lvl. FALSE. The only exception is traits, and for AC? such an easy dungeon? come on be serious…

as i already said sublvl 80 won t waste money on best equipment….and we all know that…

-traits
-exotic tier (even if downscaled)

The lack of traits leads to a less efficient build also.

If we need to be serious we should stop arguing obvious things since release….
I asked many times to make lvl 35 content designed for lvl 35 and not 80….but elitists just wants to famr them so now don t complain…..

Waste money? for killing faster and live longer? you are kidding rigth? Having the best gear for your level is a must in any MMO, a lot of players invest in gear while leveling. Specially those who are leveling alts, the runs on dungeons give you enough to have the best possible gear at all levels. And that is a fact.

And again, traits dont make any difference in AC or the other low level dungeons, at 35 you have the same skills than a 80 that can make the dungeon possible to run.

You are just saying that only because a player has exotic level the run will be a success? Again, be serious.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

GabGar.4962:

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

GabGar.4962:

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

And a skilled level 80 will always trump a equally skilled level 35, whats your point?

Fact is it is much more likely that a 80 knows what hes doing then a 35.

I really don’t get all this whining about 80s not wanting to group with you when you are on lower level chars, you keep argueing that low levels are just as good, so why not group with people your own level? instead of getting upset that higher levels wont group with you?

And its not the abilities or gear that makes the biggest diffrence 35-80 its the traits.

We are not whining we just say that people who wants a only 80 group dont know how to play and they need to be carry by others, they have the illusion that a group of only 80 will have success, and thats not always the case, a group of skilled players will have success and can do it at the same speed at any level.

The illusion and arguments to want an only lvl 80 group is causing bad attitude between some players and its against the spirit of this game.

Yeah, you are pretty much whining… people who want a 80 only grp, wants as much to the table as they themselves bring, and no they are under the “illusion” that a all 80 group has a higher chance of sucsess not to mention it is likely to go considerably faster. A “illusion” that is spot on i might add.

Whats causes a “bad” attitude between players is people with en entitlement issues, who for some insane reason belive they are entitled to join what ever group they wish to join.

I finished AC with only 40s at the same speed than a lvl 80 group, thats false, an illusion caused by the experience in other games.

And for me I dont group with “only 80s” even with my chars lvl 80, that means the run will be not fun and full of resets and wipes.

Yes, and I sneezed so hard that zhaitan got knocked out of the sky..

As for who you choose to group with, that is entirely up to you, do how ever not judge other people for making the opposite choice, and stop coming up with these bs arguements that have absolutely no basis in reality, It makes you look rather silly tbh.

Oh then probably my 5 characters leveled by only dungeons are not real, the only one that looks silly is you because I have the characters and the runs to prove it.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Again, there is this thing called Dynamic Level Adjustment. It was tested months ago here and they found little to no difference between a fully geared 80 and decently geared (greens) 35. With armor, they only found a 10-30 point gain for each stat. Since then, downscaling has been updated and level 80s are further reduced in stats compared to before. Please stop bringing up the gear argument. It has been debunked many times now.

The only arguable point is the difference in traits. A 80 will have access to more traits than a sub-80. Now a skilled player can work with the traits they do have, but there are still some builds that cannot be done well due to the missing trait points. This does not mean that no builds can be done well, just some.

Yes, a skilled 80 will be faster. That is not being argued. But the difference will be small.

Did you miss the little part in the test were it clearly said the 80 was using rares?

Edit: GabGar, I would love to know what kinda logic you follow that makes you think that having 5 80’s proves anything..

I am not argueing that low levels CAN’T do AC, I am not even argueing that they can’t do it in a timely fashion.

I am however argueing that a full 80 group has a far high sucsess potential, and a full 80 group with skilled players will be considerably quicker then a non 80 group with skilled players.

Like It or not this mmo like most other rpg games are about numbers, and the numbers simply are not in favour of your logic.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Again, there is this thing called Dynamic Level Adjustment. It was tested months ago here and they found little to no difference between a fully geared 80 and decently geared (greens) 35. With armor, they only found a 10-30 point gain for each stat. Since then, downscaling has been updated and level 80s are further reduced in stats compared to before. Please stop bringing up the gear argument. It has been debunked many times now.

The only arguable point is the difference in traits. A 80 will have access to more traits than a sub-80. Now a skilled player can work with the traits they do have, but there are still some builds that cannot be done well due to the missing trait points. This does not mean that no builds can be done well, just some.

Yes, a skilled 80 will be faster. That is not being argued. But the difference will be small.

Did you miss the little part in the test were it clearly said the 80 was using rares?

Did you miss the part where downscaling now affects 80s greater than before when these tests were done?

I have yet to see a current test, until one is provided, how greatly it changed cannot be quantified.

Based on what I see ingame however, you greatly overestimate how much diffrence it made.

On a diffrent note, I group with lower levels from time to time however I am under no obligation to do so, and complaining that other 80’s are elitist because they don’t is completly unjust, and just plain whining.

80 is something anyone can reach, it is not some exclusive club that only a select few ever get to join.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

I have yet to see a current test, until one is provided, how greatly it changed cannot be quantified.

Based on what I see ingame however, you greatly overestimate how much diffrence it made.

Also, if you see from that article, they are comparing 80 rares to 30 greens. Sure the 80 could have been in exotics, but the 35 could have been in 35 rares too.

I do not have the funds free to do the testing myself as I am hunting a legendary, but were I to be provided with the funds to do this I would gladly provide you with the numbers.

80 is something anyone can reach, it is not some exclusive club that only a select few ever get to join.

True, everyone can reach 80. But dungeons are not designed for level 80s. They have a minimum recommended level, which is what they are designed for. If they change that recommendation to level 80, then I will feel that excluding sub-80s is justified. Until then, outside of speedruns there is no reason to exclude as the potential gains are minute.

Would provide them, but saving for the exact same thing

I would say it is more correct to say dungeons are designed for everyone, however who you wish to group with should be entirely up to yourself.

There are enough people who enjoy 80 only groups, and mixed groups to cater to both communities, tbh.

While I worry, I don’t mind if you are not level 80. I don’t ask question and see it more as an extra challenge. I am only worry in Arah path 4.

personally i only take lvl 80 for dungeon, but in all dungeon (arah excluded) the only problem is if you are experienced and if you know how to use your pg, and you cant know it be4 start, is this why all only take lvl 80 full exo

vladi.6547:

Think the title says it all pretty much but seems like every party only looks for lvl 80’s these days. It’s not because you have a full lvl 80 party that the dungeon is going to be easier. Personally I believe skill > character level. Really don’t understand why people want level 80’s only, anyone care to explain?

If you have a party of full 80 you have more stats that a party with 30s

I am one of those ppl that only want lvl 80.

You can do Fractals at lvl 1 but no one does it why??

Isslair.4908:

The difference between lvl 80 in full exotics and low-level alt in levelling crap-gear is huge. Don’t even try to argue that.

Not to mention that those “highly skilled” alts try to play the same way they play on lvl 80 and fail horribly diying in one hit from boss, whom a lvl 80 can tank for several minutes.

Alt slackers are akin to MF-leachers, trying to use other people for personal gain. One of the worst kind of behaviour there is.

Quite a load of horse kitten there.

Dungeons are designed to unlock at at certain level and you accuse those who want to get into them of being leeches. They are playing the game as it was designed. During the BWEs, people had NO option but to run them at the level they unlocked them because there were no 80s. And they did. And you know what? There was exactly ZERO mewling about easy, boring, grindy dungeons.

Now everyone over-levels them and complains they are too easy, while also expecting everyone else to do exactly the same thing. That’s the problem with scaling dungeons and the one thing where WoW actually does something better. In that game, no one kicks you for running a dungeon while level-appropriate. It’s expected, as it should be. And I wouldn’t be forced to recommend to a friend of mine, who is new to the game, to wait until he caps his character before trying the dungeons he’s getting email invites, sent to him by iconic NPCs, so he won’t have to deal with elitist kitten kicking him with a single word of explanation.

Yeah, I wonder why people are trying to get into AC at level 30 or 35, when they are given an invitation to do just that, by the game. Yeah, what slackers.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Drachshyish.2319:

You’re not at full power at lvl 80 in AC… Barely at a quarter of your power…

Traits and utilitys . Thats main source of power for our chars. Without full trait tree your char is merely a shadow of his class.

It depends on the build you are running. You have full access to all skills/utilities at level 30, which is below recommended level for all dungeons. While it is true that you do not have access to all traits, that will only make some builds unusable.

Yes, an 80 will be better. But the difference is too slight to exclude people.

This difference is huge. Cause sometimes u survive with only 10% hp. Without this traits it would be certain death. And maybe even wipe for whole party.

I know, cause when I swap my utilitys and forget about it…im doing quite horrible in dungeons. And thats only when swapping em. How long would be fall, when u even dont have the traits needed for them?

I respect your right to want to do “level appropriate” content. I will fight forever for your right to do so. I will not however help you level….you can level to 80 in less than a day if YOU REALLY wanted to. If you want to “experience the content as it was designed” then I suggest you stop whining about lvl 80’s not wanting to take you. I will in turn level my own character my own way and farm the tokens on my other lvl 80 so he has gear when he hits 80. Please respect that for me as it is MY personal choice and has NOTHING to do with YOU.

I don’t see how this is “against the spirit of the game” where we are encouraged to “play how we want to play”

I also don’t understand how this makes me an elitist……….because I don’t want to help you level? I’m sure there are plenty of other people who will.

Sticks.9374:

I respect your right to want to do “level appropriate” content. I will fight forever for your right to do so. I will not however help you level….you can level to 80 in less than a day if YOU REALLY wanted to. If you want to “experience the content as it was designed” then I suggest you stop whining about lvl 80’s not wanting to take you. I will in turn level my own character my own way and farm the tokens on my other lvl 80 so he has gear when he hits 80. Please respect that for me as it is MY personal choice and has NOTHING to do with YOU.

I don’t see how this is “against the spirit of the game” where we are encouraged to “play how we want to play”

I also don’t understand how this makes me an elitist……….because I don’t want to help you level? I’m sure there are plenty of other people who will.

How exactly you are helping leveling someone by doing a dungeon? Its a team work, you are helping THE GROUP the moment you attack the first silver in any dungeon.

Everybody does his part, everybody get his lvl loot, so explain me, how you are helping leveling someone? In any case it is like saying a low level is helping you get that shiny exotic or rare for ectos at 80. Jeez

And you know even your 80 is always leveling rigth? Tell me we play the same game?

GabGar.4962:

Sticks.9374:

I respect your right to want to do “level appropriate” content. I will fight forever for your right to do so. I will not however help you level….you can level to 80 in less than a day if YOU REALLY wanted to. If you want to “experience the content as it was designed” then I suggest you stop whining about lvl 80’s not wanting to take you. I will in turn level my own character my own way and farm the tokens on my other lvl 80 so he has gear when he hits 80. Please respect that for me as it is MY personal choice and has NOTHING to do with YOU.

I don’t see how this is “against the spirit of the game” where we are encouraged to “play how we want to play”

I also don’t understand how this makes me an elitist……….because I don’t want to help you level? I’m sure there are plenty of other people who will.

How exactly you are helping leveling someone by doing a dungeon? Its a team work, you are helping THE GROUP the moment you attack the first silver in any dungeon.

Everybody does his part, everybody get his lvl loot, so explain me, how you are helping leveling someone? In any case it is like saying a low level is helping you get that shiny exotic or rare for ectos at 80. Jeez

And you know even your 80 is always leveling rigth? Tell me we play the same game?

No we do play the same game, and I do and I get what you are saying. But it feels like you re implying that I MUST DO THIS IT IS THE ONLY WAY………and I’m sorry that I feel differently than you do, but I do. And this is coming from someone who goes out of his way to help people in map chat in whatever zone I am in with whatever anyone needs. I’m the first to run to an obscure SP and help someone get it for no other reason than to help.

So yes I do play the same game you do, I just have nothing but bad experiences with people leveling in dungeons so I PREFER not to do it, and how dare you imply that I am wrong because of it. AND HOW DARE you imply that I would ever ask a lowbie to help me farm ectos, no sir do that just fine on my own thanks

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

My point is that certain dungeons do and it’s not elitist but realistic to have those requirements for any rational thinking pug team in that situation.

And this is why your analogy fails. This is false.

Barring fractals, no dungeon requires good gear, just gear. And they only require lvl 80 as an entrance qualification. I bet you, every dungeon can be complete by naked players with white weapons. I’d bet money on it.

Wrong, you have yet to show how my analogy fails. Just like a job some don’t require a degree or experience like how some dungeons don’t require lvl 80s or good gear just like on the other hand some jobs do and some dungeons require 80 and good gear.

You have admitted yourself fractals require good gear, therefore you just admitted my statement regarding some dungeons requiring good gear was valid.

The only fail here is is your attempt at discrediting my statements.

Sticks.9374:

GabGar.4962:

Sticks.9374:

I respect your right to want to do “level appropriate” content. I will fight forever for your right to do so. I will not however help you level….you can level to 80 in less than a day if YOU REALLY wanted to. If you want to “experience the content as it was designed” then I suggest you stop whining about lvl 80’s not wanting to take you. I will in turn level my own character my own way and farm the tokens on my other lvl 80 so he has gear when he hits 80. Please respect that for me as it is MY personal choice and has NOTHING to do with YOU.

I don’t see how this is “against the spirit of the game” where we are encouraged to “play how we want to play”

I also don’t understand how this makes me an elitist……….because I don’t want to help you level? I’m sure there are plenty of other people who will.

How exactly you are helping leveling someone by doing a dungeon? Its a team work, you are helping THE GROUP the moment you attack the first silver in any dungeon.

Everybody does his part, everybody get his lvl loot, so explain me, how you are helping leveling someone? In any case it is like saying a low level is helping you get that shiny exotic or rare for ectos at 80. Jeez

And you know even your 80 is always leveling rigth? Tell me we play the same game?

No we do play the same game, and I do and I get what you are saying. But it feels like you re implying that I MUST DO THIS IT IS THE ONLY WAY………and I’m sorry that I feel differently than you do, but I do. And this is coming from someone who goes out of his way to help people in map chat in whatever zone I am in with whatever anyone needs. I’m the first to run to an obscure SP and help someone get it for no other reason than to help.

So yes I do play the same game you do, I just have nothing but bad experiences with people leveling in dungeons so I PREFER not to do it, and how dare you imply that I am wrong because of it. AND HOW DARE you imply that I would ever ask a lowbie to help me farm ectos, no sir do that just fine on my own thanks

HOW YOU DARE to say you are helping leveling someone when they are helping you get loot and collectibles aswell AND helping you leveling also?

Dungeons are a team work, you contribute or dont do them, simple, no matter the level.

GabGar.4962:

HOW YOU DARE to say you are helping leveling someone when they are helping you get loot and collectibles aswell AND helping you leveling also?

Dungeons are a team work, you contribute or dont do them, simple, no matter the level.

The fact is you have less abilities and stats to contribute with when you are underlevel and have sub par gear regardless of intentions.

The poster you responded to made it clear from his experience having subleveled players in dungeon runs has not turned out well, and I tend to agree in general it does not.

The game’s exp dungeons are setup to penalize teams with sub level players, much more so now after the wp patch than ever. This is a simple fact you either accept or don’t, but it doesn’t change that fact.

Blacklight.2871:

Yeah, I wonder why people are trying to get into AC at level 30 or 35, when they are given an invitation to do just that, by the game. Yeah, what slackers.

So join an all-35 party and do dungeons at level. No one will kick you from that.

The problem is when low-levels try to join a level 80 party and expect people to carry them.

Quite a lot of leachers in this thread. Lol. Concerned about people awareness of their misdeeds.

There is a perceived difference in efficiency between a geared 80 and a geared low level. I don’t see how debating the actual difference in efficiency (or lack thereof) is relevant. A few people throwing numbers around in a thread are not going to convince anyone they are “doing it wrong.” It’s a group’s prerogative to limit their group composition. It’s not our prerogative to tell them not to.

Devil’s advocate questions to those saying the difference is quite small and matters only for speed running. How do you know that every group asking for 80’s-only is not looking for the best speed possible through the dungeon? Who gets to decide what their goals are and how achieving those goals is best accomplished, if not the members of those groups?

The fact is that you don’t need more than the level of the dungeon. Some are perfectly doable under the level of the dungeon.
Even more after they rebalanced scaling.

Usually, it’s those that do not move and expect the game to work like Diablo 1 the ones that will ask for level 80.
I’ve seen countless people with melee wapons just walking to the foe, and standing there using skills, not moving at all, with is incredibly stupid.
Even with a melee weapon you must move, so of course you’ll take lots of damage if you don’t.

And since they take lots of damage with their crappy combat behavior, they think everyone will do the same stupid thing, and so they’ll ask for people fully geared to ‘tank’ like them, even though the very concept of tanking in this game is preposterous, since the best way to avoid damage is always not standing where there attack lands.
There’s skills that lock you in place, but to use those you see the enemy, and wait until they also use skills that lock them in place, and then, in agood possition, you use yours.

So, the next time you read something like “GLF 2M lvl 80+exotics, no noobs plz”, remember that they are asking for something impossible, because anyone who asks that is the “noob”, and so it’s impossible for them to form a team with no “noobs”, as there’s “noobs” already in their team. And so you don’t really want to join that team.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

Yeah, you are pretty much whining… people who want a 80 only grp, wants as much to the table as they themselves bring, and no they are under the “illusion” that a all 80 group has a higher chance of sucsess not to mention it is likely to go considerably faster. A “illusion” that is spot on i might add.

This is false. The only exception is the super-733tz groups that will enforce specific gear, specific trait set-ups, specific team compositions, etc. Otherwise, you have no idea what a player is equipped with, what traits they are using/not using and how overall effective they are. Basically, the illusion is not only an illusion, it’s a placebo for the majority of circumstances except for the mentioned exceptions.

Not to mention triple stat items are not availible at 35, another big diffrence.

I’d try to quantify that then, if I were you. Start with an example and explain the effect of missing these traits on effectiveness and efficiency.

Try to finish cof1 being the most tested, at lvl 75 or even 79 in Yellows
We’ll have much data to compare in temr of speed (both for speeruns than kill everything runs)

Perhaps the other exception is, if you’re anything but a Mesmer, Thief or Warrior then? If you’re a guardian, necromancer, elementalist, etc, then you have no business speed running anything because you aren’t efficient.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

I am however argueing that a full 80 group has a far high sucsess potential, and a full 80 group with skilled players will be considerably quicker then a non 80 group with skilled players.

This has yet to be proven because the opposition has never used level appropriate characters in dungeons. I’d argue the opposite with the aforementioned exceptions. My only base to compare is, leveling in various groups with mixed levels with no 80s and all 80s including myself, there was no large margin in their average. You will still run in all 80 groups that take forever in AC or SE while you will still have mixed lvl groups speedily handle AC in 20-25min (can’t say I’ve had a non-80 group in SE that I can remember because no one runs that dungeon).

Like It or not this mmo like most other rpg games are about numbers, and the numbers simply are not in favour of your logic.

With the data provided so far, you haven’t the evidence to prove that the numbers are even in your favor.

lekyii.9856:

If you have a party of full 80 you have more stats that a party with 30s

I am one of those ppl that only want lvl 80.

You can do Fractals at lvl 1 but no one does it why??

Because the money to be made in fractals is low? Although I don’t sell my ectos, you cannot sell the rares/exotics you get from it and the dungeon has no exotic armor/weapons that you can buy with free tokens like other dungeons. I think my last couple weeks running fractals only, I’ve made a grand total of 8 gold (got rings and a back piece though, but that doesn’t fund crafting, repairs, armor, etc as well as dungeons do).

Sergoros.4398:

This difference is huge.

It is not.

I say it’s not because I’ve actually leveled multiple characters through dungeons and the difference is always minute.

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong, you have yet to show how my analogy fails. Just like a job some don’t require a degree or experience like how some dungeons don’t require lvl 80s or good gear just like on the other hand some jobs do and some dungeons require 80 and good gear.

You have admitted yourself fractals require good gear, therefore you just admitted my statement regarding some dungeons requiring good gear was valid.

The only fail here is is your attempt at discrediting my statements.

Fractals are not dungeons. Dungeons are meant to be completed with effort. Fractals are gated. You can’t even succeed in higher level fractals AT ALL without rez tricks like revive orbs. Not even perfect (currently) gear will spell success there.

Your analogy is off because this is a game. Expecting requirements like one would for a job only holds water if you’re looking past the fact you’re playing for fun. Nothing hangs in the balance if you did well as this is all virtual. If your time is so precious that you’re forced to min/max a game to even experience it, I’d suggest prioritizing your time better or your life as an MMO game should probably not have a place in it. There’s nothing wrong with Sudoku or other quick puzzle games.

DeathPanel.8362:

The poster you responded to made it clear from his experience having subleveled players in dungeon runs has not turned out well, and I tend to agree in general it does not.

The same can be true for only-80 dungeons. My experience with them mostly (the ones that actually request only 80s) are full of people crying “STACK HERE!” “SKIP THAT!” “CHEAT THIS!” “CHEAT THAT!” whining for you to do exactly what they say even if it’s unecessary (seriously, you can’t pull the Dredge guy’s minions away to fight? You have to stack in some spot to all get 1-shotted when some goof aggroes the boss?)

Even if the run goes somewhat timely, it’s not so much faster that I’d want to do it again, nor is it enough to have to put up with the whining and drama when someone steps out of line and is kicked (the second people start to get kicked for stupid kitten, I drop) and it will NEVER be worth my time to subject myself to exploit after exploit.

The game’s exp dungeons are setup to penalize teams with sub level players, much more so now after the wp patch than ever. This is a simple fact you either accept or don’t, but it doesn’t change that fact.

False. If anything, sub-lvl 80 characters aren’t penalized at all if they are the correct level while higher levels are penalized heavily in stats where the game expects you to have exotic-everything to make up the penalty to pull out ahead.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is a perceived difference in efficiency between a geared 80 and a geared low level. I don’t see how debating the actual difference in efficiency (or lack thereof) is relevant. A few people throwing numbers around in a thread are not going to convince anyone they are “doing it wrong.” It’s a group’s prerogative to limit their group composition. It’s not our prerogative to tell them not to.

Devil’s advocate questions to those saying the difference is quite small and matters only for speed running. How do you know that every group asking for 80’s-only is not looking for the best speed possible through the dungeon? Who gets to decide what their goals are and how achieving those goals is best accomplished, if not the members of those groups?

Just stating my opinion, again I don’t care how people group or decide to make their teams. The only point I want to put to rest is the quantitative difference between someone down-leveled and someone appropriately level for that instance.

It would help bring about just how much of a difference people are going out of their way to exclude people for. My hypothesis though, is it’s probably 10-15% (just a guesstimate ratio) more efficient to have full 80s all with best gear possible but possibly less if people have rares/masterwork trinkets or whatever. It’s 25-40% more efficient if that group is optimized for speed which would require more exclusions of class/build.

In all likely hood, even if it’s a speed run, unless you’re forcing people to link their gear/build rather than just making sure they’re all lvl 80s and nothing more, you’re breaking even or possibly even weakening yourself if that 80 isn’t in at least rares. Lower levels have less of a penalty to make up for in gear than 80s.

Basically, the only way ‘only 80s’ is more efficient is if you’re going the full elitist mile and making sure people have the most optimized gear possible.

Sticks.9374:

No we do play the same game, and I do and I get what you are saying. But it feels like you re implying that I MUST DO THIS IT IS THE ONLY WAY………and I’m sorry that I feel differently than you do, but I do. And this is coming from someone who goes out of his way to help people in map chat in whatever zone I am in with whatever anyone needs. I’m the first to run to an obscure SP and help someone get it for no other reason than to help.

So yes I do play the same game you do, I just have nothing but bad experiences with people leveling in dungeons so I PREFER not to do it, and how dare you imply that I am wrong because of it. AND HOW DARE you imply that I would ever ask a lowbie to help me farm ectos, no sir do that just fine on my own thanks

I’d DARE to imply so because you’re stating your preference under a FALSE pretense. Basically, you’re spreading a lie. Now if you prefer not to team with non-80s because of past experiences with them, then state as such. Don’t, however, state that it has anything to do with ‘carrying’ someone as if you yourself are flawless, perfect and some sort of pro that could solo the content.

checks messages

Nope, as far as I know, you are not one of those that solos the various dungeons so yeah, it’s safe to say you are indeed not carrying non-80 characters through your dungeons runs unless they are newbs to that particular instance.

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Drachshyish.2319:

You’re not at full power at lvl 80 in AC… Barely at a quarter of your power…

Traits and utilitys . Thats main source of power for our chars. Without full trait tree your char is merely a shadow of his class.

It depends on the build you are running. You have full access to all skills/utilities at level 30, which is below recommended level for all dungeons. While it is true that you do not have access to all traits, that will only make some builds unusable.

Yes, an 80 will be better. But the difference is too slight to exclude people.

This difference is huge. Cause sometimes u survive with only 10% hp. Without this traits it would be certain death. And maybe even wipe for whole party.

I know, cause when I swap my utilitys and forget about it…im doing quite horrible in dungeons. And thats only when swapping em. How long would be fall, when u even dont have the traits needed for them?

If you don’t have the traits needed to make certain skills useful, you don’t run those skills. A skilled player will know what they can and can’t do well at their level. The biggest difference between two players is skill, not level.

Isslair.4908:

Blacklight.2871:

Yeah, I wonder why people are trying to get into AC at level 30 or 35, when they are given an invitation to do just that, by the game. Yeah, what slackers.

So join an all-35 party and do dungeons at level. No one will kick you from that.

The problem is when low-levels try to join a level 80 party and expect people to carry them.

Quite a lot of leachers in this thread. Lol. Concerned about people awareness of their misdeeds.

Low leveled players do not expect anyone to carry them. They expect everyone to carry themselves.

Running a low level chara is not leeching. Leeching is sitting back and doing nothing.

I can guarantee that many that run low level charas in dungeons are more skilled than a good number of geared 80s. Just recently I ran AC and saw a level 35 or so engineer outperform a level 80 warrior. I’d take that engineer over that warrior every time. It is not level or class that matters. It is skill.

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong, you have yet to show how my analogy fails. Just like a job some don’t require a degree or experience like how some dungeons don’t require lvl 80s or good gear just like on the other hand some jobs do and some dungeons require 80 and good gear.

You have admitted yourself fractals require good gear, therefore you just admitted my statement regarding some dungeons requiring good gear was valid.

The only fail here is is your attempt at discrediting my statements.

Fractals are not dungeons. Dungeons are meant to be completed with effort. Fractals are gated. You can’t even succeed in higher level fractals AT ALL without rez tricks like revive orbs. Not even perfect (currently) gear will spell success there.

Wrong. Fractals IS a dungeon instance no matter how you try to twist it.

No one ever said good gear guarantees success. You just came up with that strawman by yourself.

In fact it was yourself that said fractals took good gear originally and I was just pointing out that you agreed with my point by saying that.

DeathPanel.8362:

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong, you have yet to show how my analogy fails. Just like a job some don’t require a degree or experience like how some dungeons don’t require lvl 80s or good gear just like on the other hand some jobs do and some dungeons require 80 and good gear.

You have admitted yourself fractals require good gear, therefore you just admitted my statement regarding some dungeons requiring good gear was valid.

The only fail here is is your attempt at discrediting my statements.

Fractals are not dungeons. Dungeons are meant to be completed with effort. Fractals are gated. You can’t even succeed in higher level fractals AT ALL without rez tricks like revive orbs. Not even perfect (currently) gear will spell success there.

Wrong. Fractals IS a dungeon instance no matter how you try to twist it.

No one ever said good gear guarantees success. You just came up with that strawman by yourself.

In fact it was yourself that said fractals took good gear originally and I was just pointing out that you agreed with my point by saying that.

I only speak of sub-80s in the other dungeons. Fractals are designed for level 80s and sub-80s there truly cannot compare. Not wanting sub-80s in Fractals is understandable. It is when they are shunned in the other dungeons (where the recommended level is below 80) that it is a disgrace.

Leo G.4501:

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is a perceived difference in efficiency between a geared 80 and a geared low level. I don’t see how debating the actual difference in efficiency (or lack thereof) is relevant. A few people throwing numbers around in a thread are not going to convince anyone they are “doing it wrong.” It’s a group’s prerogative to limit their group composition. It’s not our prerogative to tell them not to.

Devil’s advocate questions to those saying the difference is quite small and matters only for speed running. How do you know that every group asking for 80’s-only is not looking for the best speed possible through the dungeon? Who gets to decide what their goals are and how achieving those goals is best accomplished, if not the members of those groups?

Just stating my opinion, again I don’t care how people group or decide to make their teams. The only point I want to put to rest is the quantitative difference between someone down-leveled and someone appropriately level for that instance.

It would help bring about just how much of a difference people are going out of their way to exclude people for. My hypothesis though, is it’s probably 10-15% (just a guesstimate ratio) more efficient to have full 80s all with best gear possible but possibly less if people have rares/masterwork trinkets or whatever. It’s 25-40% more efficient if that group is optimized for speed which would require more exclusions of class/build.

In all likely hood, even if it’s a speed run, unless you’re forcing people to link their gear/build rather than just making sure they’re all lvl 80s and nothing more, you’re breaking even or possibly even weakening yourself if that 80 isn’t in at least rares. Lower levels have less of a penalty to make up for in gear than 80s.

Basically, the only way ‘only 80s’ is more efficient is if you’re going the full elitist mile and making sure people have the most optimized gear possible.

For the sake of discussion, let’s say your hypothesis is spot on. Let’s also assume that hypothetical group A is looking for one more 80. They get one, and don’t ask him to link gear. Your hypothesis is that they may be losing out if that 80 is under-geared. However, if they aren’t asking for gear link, there is also no guarantee that a sub-80 would be geared as well as could be, either. With an 80, there’s the chance of your 10-15% more efficiency. What is the upside for a group that has some interest in speed/efficiency of taking a sub-80 character? If there is one, does it trump the upside of that potential 10-15%?

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong, you have yet to show how my analogy fails. Just like a job some don’t require a degree or experience like how some dungeons don’t require lvl 80s or good gear just like on the other hand some jobs do and some dungeons require 80 and good gear.

You have admitted yourself fractals require good gear, therefore you just admitted my statement regarding some dungeons requiring good gear was valid.

The only fail here is is your attempt at discrediting my statements.

Fractals are not dungeons. Dungeons are meant to be completed with effort. Fractals are gated. You can’t even succeed in higher level fractals AT ALL without rez tricks like revive orbs. Not even perfect (currently) gear will spell success there.

Wrong. Fractals IS a dungeon instance no matter how you try to twist it.

No one ever said good gear guarantees success. You just came up with that strawman by yourself.

In fact it was yourself that said fractals took good gear originally and I was just pointing out that you agreed with my point by saying that.

I only speak of sub-80s in the other dungeons. Fractals are designed for level 80s and sub-80s there truly cannot compare. Not wanting sub-80s in Fractals is understandable. It is when they are shunned in the other dungeons (where the recommended level is below 80) that it is a disgrace.

From my experience, Id tend to find the difference between a 60 and an 80 is noticeable, particularly in the more difficult bits like Dredge (prenerf) and legendary grawl at present, to a point where stats > skill.

But this argument that skill will always be greater than stats is completely flawed. I personally experienced dungeons early and made a concious decision to level to 80 and get decent gear before I hit them up again, because I didnt want to waste other peoples time. All I expect is that the same respect I have shown to others by doing this is extended to me. Im completely cool with people who want to carry and teach lower levels to do it, as long as it isn’t my time that is being wasted.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong, you have yet to show how my analogy fails. Just like a job some don’t require a degree or experience like how some dungeons don’t require lvl 80s or good gear just like on the other hand some jobs do and some dungeons require 80 and good gear.

You have admitted yourself fractals require good gear, therefore you just admitted my statement regarding some dungeons requiring good gear was valid.

The only fail here is is your attempt at discrediting my statements.

Fractals are not dungeons. Dungeons are meant to be completed with effort. Fractals are gated. You can’t even succeed in higher level fractals AT ALL without rez tricks like revive orbs. Not even perfect (currently) gear will spell success there.

Wrong. Fractals IS a dungeon instance no matter how you try to twist it.

No one ever said good gear guarantees success. You just came up with that strawman by yourself.

In fact it was yourself that said fractals took good gear originally and I was just pointing out that you agreed with my point by saying that.

I only speak of sub-80s in the other dungeons. Fractals are designed for level 80s and sub-80s there truly cannot compare. Not wanting sub-80s in Fractals is understandable. It is when they are shunned in the other dungeons (where the recommended level is below 80) that it is a disgrace.

That depends on what dungeon you are talking about.

The recommended level is not a good measurement of what you need to beat a dungeon instance.

I’m not saying you need 80s and good gear for every dungeon.

But then again if you try to go to dungeons with characters exactly at the level of the dungeon you are asking for trouble.

sostronk.8167:

But this argument that skill will always be greater than stats is completely flawed. I personally experienced dungeons early and made a concious decision to level to 80 and get decent gear before I hit them up again, because I didnt want to waste other peoples time. All I expect is that the same respect I have shown to others by doing this is extended to me. Im completely cool with people who want to carry and teach lower levels to do it, as long as it isn’t my time that is being wasted.

Exactly. This is not a twitch game but rather a mmo with limited twitch elements. “Skill” is a limited factor.

In fact much more important is knowledge of the dungeon and the encounters.

It’s by the knowledge of the dungeons that informed players like you have realized that to take a sub level 80 to a dungeon is not an optimal use of time nor is it fair to the team’s time.

Again, I want to make it clear that no one said people can’t beat certain dungeons with sub lvl 80s with poor gear, it would just be much slower and more tedious for the whole team and in some instances even cause fails.

Do what everyone else does. Stick your twink in the zone your doing dungeon in. Switch at last boss from 80 to twink at 10%. get xp credit on twink. Lots of people do this, and it’s considered acceptable by most everyone cause it doesn’t gimp the run at all. Still nice and fast. Plus look at it this way, you run your 80 you get 80 loot the entire time, it’s a win win.

as someone who is against elitism and feels its unnecessary I don’t think not grouping with sub 80’s is elitism. At 80 you just want to get in and get out with as little struggle as possible and many times sub 80’s just don’t dish out that DPS you need and cause too many failures and quite honestly there are faster ways to level a sub 80.