Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

For the sake of discussion, let’s say your hypothesis is spot on. Let’s also assume that hypothetical group A is looking for one more 80. They get one, and don’t ask him to link gear. Your hypothesis is that they may be losing out if that 80 is under-geared. However, if they aren’t asking for gear link, there is also no guarantee that a sub-80 would be geared as well as could be, either. With an 80, there’s the chance of your 10-15% more efficiency. What is the upside for a group that has some interest in speed/efficiency of taking a sub-80 character? If there is one, does it trump the upside of that potential 10-15%?

You cannot guarantee that anyone will be fully geared. Chances are that a sub-80 will be running decent gear in dungeons as they need to. Also, please see the links here and here for information on Dynamic Leveling and how it does balance out stats between high and low level charas.

And asking to link gear is total kitten move. If I ever see this behaviour, I leave the group.

sostronk.8167:

From my experience, Id tend to find the difference between a 60 and an 80 is noticeable, particularly in the more difficult bits like Dredge (prenerf) and legendary grawl at present, to a point where stats > skill.

But this argument that skill will always be greater than stats is completely flawed. I personally experienced dungeons early and made a concious decision to level to 80 and get decent gear before I hit them up again, because I didnt want to waste other peoples time. All I expect is that the same respect I have shown to others by doing this is extended to me. Im completely cool with people who want to carry and teach lower levels to do it, as long as it isn’t my time that is being wasted.

Again, the up-leveling system used Fractals is not that effective and Fractals are designed for level 80. In Fractals, a sub-80 is a liability.

In dungeons designed for sub-80s (All but CoE and Arah), however, skill is greater than stats. That is not to say that you can run any gear efficiently, but if you run good gear for your level then Dynamic Level Adjustment will balance out stats. Again, please see the links here and here for research and information on how it works.

DeathPanel.8362:

That depends on what dungeon you are talking about.

The recommended level is not a good measurement of what you need to beat a dungeon instance.

I’m not saying you need 80s and good gear for every dungeon.

But then again if you try to go to dungeons with characters exactly at the level of the dungeon you are asking for trouble.

No. Recommended level is a good measurement of what you need to beat a dungeon. It is not asking for trouble. Now if you are talking of speed-clears, then yes, you do want 80s for that. But unless a group is explicitly looking for a speed-clear, there is no reason to exclude sub-80s.

DeathPanel.8362:

sostronk.8167:

But this argument that skill will always be greater than stats is completely flawed. I personally experienced dungeons early and made a concious decision to level to 80 and get decent gear before I hit them up again, because I didnt want to waste other peoples time. All I expect is that the same respect I have shown to others by doing this is extended to me. Im completely cool with people who want to carry and teach lower levels to do it, as long as it isn’t my time that is being wasted.

Exactly. This is not a twitch game but rather a mmo with limited twitch elements. “Skill” is a limited factor.

In fact much more important is knowledge of the dungeon and the encounters.

It’s by the knowledge of the dungeons that informed players like you have realized that to take a sub level 80 to a dungeon is not an optimal use of time nor is it fair to the team’s time.

Again, I want to make it clear that no one said people can’t beat certain dungeons with sub lvl 80s with poor gear, it would just be much slower and more tedious for the whole team and in some instances even cause fails.

If you are arguing sub-80s in poor gear vs geared 80s, then yes, you are correct. But we are talking of sub-80 charas that are properly geared. A properly geared sub-80 can be as much of a boon as a fully exotic geared 80 in the right hands. And a properly geared 80 can be a liability if not in the right hands.

SynfulChaot.3169:

IndigoSundown.5419:

For the sake of discussion, let’s say your hypothesis is spot on. Let’s also assume that hypothetical group A is looking for one more 80. They get one, and don’t ask him to link gear. Your hypothesis is that they may be losing out if that 80 is under-geared. However, if they aren’t asking for gear link, there is also no guarantee that a sub-80 would be geared as well as could be, either. With an 80, there’s the chance of your 10-15% more efficiency. What is the upside for a group that has some interest in speed/efficiency of taking a sub-80 character? If there is one, does it trump the upside of that potential 10-15%?

You cannot guarantee that anyone will be fully geared. Chances are that a sub-80 will be running decent gear in dungeons as they need to. Also, please see the links here and here for information on Dynamic Leveling and how it does balance out stats between high and low level charas.

And asking to link gear is total kitten move. If I ever see this behaviour, I leave the group.

sostronk.8167:

From my experience, Id tend to find the difference between a 60 and an 80 is noticeable, particularly in the more difficult bits like Dredge (prenerf) and legendary grawl at present, to a point where stats > skill.

But this argument that skill will always be greater than stats is completely flawed. I personally experienced dungeons early and made a concious decision to level to 80 and get decent gear before I hit them up again, because I didnt want to waste other peoples time. All I expect is that the same respect I have shown to others by doing this is extended to me. Im completely cool with people who want to carry and teach lower levels to do it, as long as it isn’t my time that is being wasted.

Again, the up-leveling system used Fractals is not that effective and Fractals are designed for level 80. In Fractals, a sub-80 is a liability.

In dungeons designed for sub-80s (All but CoE and Arah), however, skill is greater than stats. That is not to say that you can run any gear efficiently, but if you run good gear for your level then Dynamic Level Adjustment will balance out stats. Again, please see the links here and here for research and information on how it works.

You can link me all you want. I know for a fact that the adjustments are not accurate. You are never going to convince me otherwise, unless they actually make changes to the adjustments. I will not play any dungeon with a sub level 80. I don’t care what your prerogative is, your not going to convince me to waste my time playing with them.

sostronk.8167:

You can link me all you want. I know for a fact that the adjustments are not accurate. You are never going to convince me otherwise, unless they actually make changes to the adjustments. I will not play any dungeon with a sub level 80. I don’t care what your prerogative is, your not going to convince me to waste my time playing with them.

It is unfortunate that you will not accept any actual evidence as presented here. And if you still feel that partying with a sub-80 is a waste of time, then you are an elitist.

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

You can link me all you want. I know for a fact that the adjustments are not accurate. You are never going to convince me otherwise, unless they actually make changes to the adjustments. I will not play any dungeon with a sub level 80. I don’t care what your prerogative is, your not going to convince me to waste my time playing with them.

It is unfortunate that you will not accept any actual evidence as presented here. And if you still feel that partying with a sub-80 is a waste of time, then you are an elitist.

Call me what you like. Ive already explained I levelled to 80 without wasting anyone elses time. Meanwhile I think its pretty selfish for others to expect me to carry them and waste my time. Ive put alot of hours into the game. Its brutally obvious to anyone who has also put alot of hours into the game that being an 80 in a dungeon is alot easier than doing it in lower levels.

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong. Fractals IS a dungeon instance no matter how you try to twist it.

No one ever said good gear guarantees success. You just came up with that strawman by yourself.

In fact it was yourself that said fractals took good gear originally and I was just pointing out that you agreed with my point by saying that.

Dungeons are Dungeons and Fractals are Fractals. I don’t know anyone else who plays fractals at the various levels who equate the two as the same. They have differing set-ups and rewards people have different expectations for each.

But regardless if they are the same or not, how does this change any of this in relation to anything being like a job interview and needing specific qualifications to participate? They haven’t the same needs.

IndigoSundown.5419:

For the sake of discussion, let’s say your hypothesis is spot on. Let’s also assume that hypothetical group A is looking for one more 80. They get one, and don’t ask him to link gear. Your hypothesis is that they may be losing out if that 80 is under-geared. However, if they aren’t asking for gear link, there is also no guarantee that a sub-80 would be geared as well as could be, either. With an 80, there’s the chance of your 10-15% more efficiency. What is the upside for a group that has some interest in speed/efficiency of taking a sub-80 character? If there is one, does it trump the upside of that potential 10-15%?

This is why I believe more testing is required but I haven’t the resources to accomplish such tests. Obviously dynamic level scaling has a curve otherwise once you surpass the minimum requirements, you’re up a creek until you can equip lvl 80 exotics. This isn’t the case.

So how much of a curve is it? I’d assume, the higher level you go, the steeper the curve until it peaks at lvl 80 where you need exotic armor to surpass that gap. Considering that exotic equipment is only available after lvl 60, this would mean it is far easier to be optimally equipped before that since masterwork equipment is cheap and the amount of difference in strength between masterwork and rare is only 10% (masterwork is 135% stat strength while rare is 145% stat strength) vs the difference in strength between rare and exotic being 20%.

So for example, a lvl 55 character can easily be in masterwork gear for pennies and yet it may be quite hard for a lvl 77 character to have the best equipment for their level because exotics at that point can be pricy and yet they will be obsolete very quickly…and yet I’d bet you would look at that lvl 77 and just say ‘close enough’ while passing over someone closer to the dungeon’s level, right?

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

You can link me all you want. I know for a fact that the adjustments are not accurate. You are never going to convince me otherwise, unless they actually make changes to the adjustments. I will not play any dungeon with a sub level 80. I don’t care what your prerogative is, your not going to convince me to waste my time playing with them.

It is unfortunate that you will not accept any actual evidence as presented here. And if you still feel that partying with a sub-80 is a waste of time, then you are an elitist.

Call me what you like. Ive already explained I levelled to 80 without wasting anyone elses time. Meanwhile I think its pretty selfish for others to expect me to carry them and waste my time. Ive put alot of hours into the game. Its brutally obvious to anyone who has also put alot of hours into the game that being an 80 in a dungeon is alot easier than doing it in lower levels.

Sub-80s do not need to get carried. If you still feel that this is true despite everything stated and referenced, then you are refusing to use logic and any further discussion with you is moot.

I do have several thousand hours in the game and 5 geared 80s, so I am not ignorant, despite your allusions.

sostronk.8167:

Call me what you like. Ive already explained I levelled to 80 without wasting anyone elses time. Meanwhile I think its pretty selfish for others to expect me to carry them and waste my time. Ive put alot of hours into the game. Its brutally obvious to anyone who has also put alot of hours into the game that being an 80 in a dungeon is alot easier than doing it in lower levels.

And this is false. Again, I’ve actually done it. I’ve experienced it. You haven’t. What you think is true is not. It’s your preference, sure, but it is false that dungeons are a lot easier just because you’re level 80. They are a lot easier when you’ve experienced the content and know the profession, yes, but not because of that artificial level which is downscaled by your gear.

And it gets even worse if you use crit damage gear, because the extra stat on your gear will amount to next to nothing when downscaled past a point and yet, berserker gear is quite popular among speed runners.

Were I do agree it does get annoying when people only want level 80’s I can see there side. I have a big problem when people will kick you from a party because you are not a zerk warrior or the one mesmer they need for the portal.

Is it my fault I did not want to be like everyone else and play a warrior. I kind of feel like all the time and effort I put into getting my theif to level 80 was a waste. To even play the game sometimes I feel like I need to go make a zerk warrior.

Imrazir.3075:

Is it my fault I did not want to be like everyone else and play a warrior. I kind of feel like all the time and effort I put into getting my theif to level 80 was a waste. To even play the game sometimes I feel like I need to go make a zerk warrior.

And just think, those same people that will kick you for that also want you to go out of your way to level up to 80 so they can reject you then.

IMO, there are just so many things wrong with people’s expectations, and it’s so warped and crooked, they can’t even explain why they have such expectations in the first place except that they ‘believe’ these false expectations to be true.

Imrazir.3075:

Were I do agree it does get annoying when people only want level 80’s I can see there side. I have a big problem when people will kick you from a party because you are not a zerk warrior or the one mesmer they need for the portal.

Is it my fault I did not want to be like everyone else and play a warrior. I kind of feel like all the time and effort I put into getting my theif to level 80 was a waste. To even play the game sometimes I feel like I need to go make a zerk warrior.

You don’t, and don’t let the elitists convince you otherwise. All classes are perfectly viable, though some are easier in dungeons (warrior) and some are harder (thief).

I dont mind running with low levels in a dungeon until I meet few that mentions they dont know how to do part or this is their first time. Then again I would rather have one Twink than three 80s that dont know how to dungeon anyday.

Imrazir.3075:

Were I do agree it does get annoying when people only want level 80’s I can see there side. I have a big problem when people will kick you from a party because you are not a zerk warrior or the one mesmer they need for the portal.

Is it my fault I did not want to be like everyone else and play a warrior. I kind of feel like all the time and effort I put into getting my theif to level 80 was a waste. To even play the game sometimes I feel like I need to go make a zerk warrior.

Yeah that is pretty messed up. I have seen people go absolutely ballistic because someone made a mistake that cost the team 10 seconds extra to kill a boss. And Im talking full angry german kid. Some people need to chill out, it is only PvE :p I pretty much only farm dungeons to gear my chars for WvW. I don’t mind if it takes an extra minute to farm a run on CoF. I would suggest they start their own guild for dungeon farmers, but I can imagine that going down pretty badly.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Imrazir.3075:

Were I do agree it does get annoying when people only want level 80’s I can see there side. I have a big problem when people will kick you from a party because you are not a zerk warrior or the one mesmer they need for the portal.

Is it my fault I did not want to be like everyone else and play a warrior. I kind of feel like all the time and effort I put into getting my theif to level 80 was a waste. To even play the game sometimes I feel like I need to go make a zerk warrior.

You don’t, and don’t let the elitists convince you otherwise. All classes are perfectly viable, though some are easier in dungeons (warrior) and some are harder (thief).

I agree that what you said here is a good example of elitism. Not bringing sub 80s to dungeons is not in fact elitism. And you can quote all the level 80’s you have and thousands of hours you have played at me you want. If someone keeps telling me that a wall is red and they show me diagrams and quote threads and go on and on and on about how this wall is red and I keep looking at it and seeing a blue wall(MY experience) I don’t care how many times you say it because MY experience has shown something else. I will do a dungeon with anyone of any class even if they are new to it but every time I have done with a sub 80 EVERY KITTEN TIME it’s ended badly so sorry sir, for me at least the wall is blue. Label me an elitist in ignorance if you want but I am one of the nicest, friendliest, social, and helpful people in game and I refuse to do it.

Sticks.9374:

I agree that what you said here is a good example of elitism. Not bringing sub 80s to dungeons is not in fact elitism. And you can quote all the level 80’s you have and thousands of hours you have played at me you want. If someone keeps telling me that a wall is red and they show me diagrams and quote threads and go on and on and on about how this wall is red and I keep looking at it and seeing a blue wall(MY experience) I don’t care how many times you say it because MY experience has shown something else. I will do a dungeon with anyone of any class even if they are new to it but every time I have done with a sub 80 EVERY KITTEN TIME it’s ended badly so sorry sir, for me at least the wall is blue. Label me an elitist in ignorance if you want but I am one of the nicest, friendliest, social, and helpful people in game and I refuse to do it.

You still run with people who are sub-80 so I would not label you as such. And I hope you run across some sub-80s who run well so you can see that we do exist!

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sticks.9374:

I agree that what you said here is a good example of elitism. Not bringing sub 80s to dungeons is not in fact elitism. And you can quote all the level 80’s you have and thousands of hours you have played at me you want. If someone keeps telling me that a wall is red and they show me diagrams and quote threads and go on and on and on about how this wall is red and I keep looking at it and seeing a blue wall(MY experience) I don’t care how many times you say it because MY experience has shown something else. I will do a dungeon with anyone of any class even if they are new to it but every time I have done with a sub 80 EVERY KITTEN TIME it’s ended badly so sorry sir, for me at least the wall is blue. Label me an elitist in ignorance if you want but I am one of the nicest, friendliest, social, and helpful people in game and I refuse to do it.

You still run with people who are sub-80 so I would not label you as such. And I hope you run across some sub-80s who run well so you can see that we do exist!

Oh in that case Ill point out I used to dungeon with sub 80s. Its only when I realised that they always slow the process down too much and make the dungeon substantially harder that I no longer dungeon with them.

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

This difference is huge.

It is not.

I say it’s not, because I’ve actually leveled multiple characters through dungeons and the difference is always minute.

Then u not using your char at his 100%. Most likely u even one of this true heroes who goes in melee and then 1-1-1-1-1. Yep. This guys wont notice any difference. Im playing mesmer and allways change my traits depending on boss. Need range? Pistols. Need melee? Focus. Long range fight with probable casualitys? Mantras. Need reflect? Warden reflection. And etc and etc. I can change to glamours. I can change to signets distortion. So much flexibility. How can u even compare it to wooden mesmer of 35 lvl?

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Drachshyish.2319:

You’re not at full power at lvl 80 in AC… Barely at a quarter of your power…

Traits and utilitys . Thats main source of power for our chars. Without full trait tree your char is merely a shadow of his class.

It depends on the build you are running. You have full access to all skills/utilities at level 30, which is below recommended level for all dungeons. While it is true that you do not have access to all traits, that will only make some builds unusable.

Yes, an 80 will be better. But the difference is too slight to exclude people.

This difference is huge. Cause sometimes u survive with only 10% hp. Without this traits it would be certain death. And maybe even wipe for whole party.

I know, cause when I swap my utilitys and forget about it…im doing quite horrible in dungeons. And thats only when swapping em. How long would be fall, when u even dont have the traits needed for them?

If you don’t have the traits needed to make certain skills useful, you don’t run those skills. A skilled player will know what they can and can’t do well at their level. The biggest difference between two players is skill, not level.

Then u would be less usefull. Cause ur not flexible for any situation. Not even mentioning, that u dont even have all the traits. Ur not only unflexible, but also underperfoming, cause u dont even have the whole trait line.

it is not elitist. people just don’t want to babysit the lower level especially since the update, where you can’t wp when the party is in combat…. rezzing most of the time will only drag the group, seriously.

Sergoros.4398:

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

This difference is huge.

It is not.

I say it’s not, because I’ve actually leveled multiple characters through dungeons and the difference is always minute.

Then u not using your char at his 100%. Most likely u even one of this true heroes who goes in melee and then 1-1-1-1-1. Yep. This guys wont notice any difference. Im playing mesmer and allways change my traits depending on boss. Need range? Pistols. Need melee? Sword. Long range fight with probable casualitys? Mantras. Need reflect? Warden reflection. And etc and etc. I can change to glamours. I can change to signets distortion. So much flexibility. How can u even compare it to wooden mesmer of 35 lvl?

At level 35, a chara has access to all the same skills as a level 80. They can bring the same useful skills to any battle. The only difference is whether or not the chara has the traits to make the skills even more useful, but even a level 80 rarely (if ever) is traited to emphasize all of the skills they use in dungeons.

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you don’t have the traits needed to make certain skills useful, you don’t run those skills. A skilled player will know what they can and can’t do well at their level. The biggest difference between two players is skill, not level.

Then u would be less usefull. Cause ur not flexible for any situation. Not even mentioning, that u dont even have all the traits. Ur not only unflexible, but also underperfoming, cause u dont even have the whole trait line.

Even a fully-traited 80 is not flexible for any situation. All builds are built to emphasize certain things. If you go outside of that yes you will bring more utility to a certain situation, but you are not using that skill at full potential. A good sub-80 can still bring plenty of utility. They will be slightly less flexible, but they will still be flexible.

azizul.8469:

it is not elitist. people just don’t want to babysit the lower level especially since the update, where you can’t wp when the party is in combat…. rezzing most of the time will only drag the group, seriously.

Lower levels do not need babysitting. That attitude right there is why people are calling you elitist. Good low level players will pull their own weight.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

This difference is huge.

It is not.

I say it’s not, because I’ve actually leveled multiple characters through dungeons and the difference is always minute.

Then u not using your char at his 100%. Most likely u even one of this true heroes who goes in melee and then 1-1-1-1-1. Yep. This guys wont notice any difference. Im playing mesmer and allways change my traits depending on boss. Need range? Pistols. Need melee? Sword. Long range fight with probable casualitys? Mantras. Need reflect? Warden reflection. And etc and etc. I can change to glamours. I can change to signets distortion. So much flexibility. How can u even compare it to wooden mesmer of 35 lvl?

At level 35, a chara has access to all the same skills as a level 80. They can bring the same useful skills to any battle. The only difference is whether or not the chara has the traits to make the skills even more useful, but even a level 80 rarely (if ever) is traited to emphasize all of the skills they use in dungeons.

Traits. Im talking about traits. Any players, that plays at 100% of his char would tell ya, that traits is vital to his char. With just 1 trait i can double my dmg against 1 enemy. And this is just 1 trait. And this 35 lvl lack not only 1 trait. He lacks 2 branches of the whole trait tree.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you don’t have the traits needed to make certain skills useful, you don’t run those skills. A skilled player will know what they can and can’t do well at their level. The biggest difference between two players is skill, not level.

Then u would be less usefull. Cause ur not flexible for any situation. Not even mentioning, that u dont even have all the traits. Ur not only unflexible, but also underperfoming, cause u dont even have the whole trait line.

Even a fully-traited 80 is not flexible for any situation. All builds are built to emphasize certain things. If you go outside of that yes you will bring more utility to a certain situation, but you are not using that skill at full potential. A good sub-80 can still bring plenty of utility. They will be slightly less flexible, but they will still be flexible.

U sure u have any 80 chars? Or u have only 5 80 lvl wars? Cause ill say difference is HUGE.

Sticks.9374:

I agree that what you said here is a good example of elitism. Not bringing sub 80s to dungeons is not in fact elitism. And you can quote all the level 80’s you have and thousands of hours you have played at me you want. If someone keeps telling me that a wall is red and they show me diagrams and quote threads and go on and on and on about how this wall is red and I keep looking at it and seeing a blue wall(MY experience) I don’t care how many times you say it because MY experience has shown something else. I will do a dungeon with anyone of any class even if they are new to it but every time I have done with a sub 80 EVERY KITTEN TIME it’s ended badly so sorry sir, for me at least the wall is blue. Label me an elitist in ignorance if you want but I am one of the nicest, friendliest, social, and helpful people in game and I refuse to do it.

So theoretically speaking, the devs could outright patch the game and tell you straight out that they’re making level 80s weaker in downscaled dungeons than appropriately level players in lower level instances and you’d still put corn cobs in your ears and go on thinking what you want?

Sergoros.4398:

Then u not using your char at his 100%. Most likely u even one of this true heroes who goes in melee and then 1-1-1-1-1. Yep. This guys wont notice any difference. Im playing mesmer and allways change my traits depending on boss. Need range? Pistols. Need melee? Focus. Long range fight with probable casualitys? Mantras. Need reflect? Warden reflection. And etc and etc. I can change to glamours. I can change to signets distortion. So much flexibility. How can u even compare it to wooden mesmer of 35 lvl?

None of what you just mentioned is trait specific and yet you’re attacking me because you think I don’t swap traits? A lvl 35 mesmer can swap in any of those weapons and any of those skills for whatever circumstance you just outlined.

Now try again. You’re getting closer to the meat of the difference though.

Sergoros.4398:

Traits. Im talking about traits. Any players, that plays at 100% of his char would tell ya, that traits is vital to his char. With just 1 trait i can double my dmg against 1 enemy. And this is just 1 trait. And this 35 lvl lack not only 1 trait. He lacks 2 branches of the whole trait tree.

Alright, now what trait is that? You can describe what quantitative value you get from it, but the truth is in the application.

So basically everyone who’s saying that you still need 80’s for a dungeon, you think you’re still playing WoW where 80 is automatically “amazing” and that ANet decided to code the game in a way where you were scaled DOWN, but it just doesn’t work and ANet had no idea what they were doing when they put this feature in the game. If that’s what you believe, then stop playing this game because that feature is one of the things that makes this game amazing and by being ignorant to that specific feature, even when tested by players and stated by ANet, then you’re just ruining this game for everyone trying to enjoy it the way it’s MEANT to be played.

Sergoros.4398:

Traits. Im talking about traits. Any players, that plays at 100% of his char would tell ya, that traits is vital to his char. With just 1 trait i can double my dmg against 1 enemy. And this is just 1 trait. And this 35 lvl lack not only 1 trait. He lacks 2 branches of the whole trait tree.

Traits are vital for full effectiveness, yes, but a skilled player will make full use of what traits they do have. And a majority of sub-80 players are at or above level 40, at which they have access to the master level where most of the crucial traits are. Yes, an 80 will be better. Noone is arguing that. We are just saying that it will not be like night and day. It will be a small difference if the player is skilled.

Sergoros.4398:

U sure u have any 80 chars? Or u have only 5 80 lvl wars? Cause ill say difference is HUGE.

Check my sig, good sir. Not a warrior or mesmer at 80 yet. My first 80 (and my main) is a ranger. So no easy-mode here.

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

Then u not using your char at his 100%. Most likely u even one of this true heroes who goes in melee and then 1-1-1-1-1. Yep. This guys wont notice any difference. Im playing mesmer and allways change my traits depending on boss. Need range? Pistols. Need melee? Focus. Long range fight with probable casualitys? Mantras. Need reflect? Warden reflection. And etc and etc. I can change to glamours. I can change to signets distortion. So much flexibility. How can u even compare it to wooden mesmer of 35 lvl?

None of what you just mentioned is trait specific and yet you’re attacking me because you think I don’t swap traits? A lvl 35 mesmer can swap in any of those weapons and any of those skills for whatever circumstance you just outlined.

Now try again. You’re getting closer to the meat of the difference though.

Weapons. Not traits. In example. Weapon traits give u lower cd. Clone trait gives u less cd on clones. Warden reflection doubles the dmg of any projectile i reflect with warden.
Healing mantras giving u ability to heal allys. And etc and etc. Wy should i even mention it? Like someone said… l2p and know it yourself

Sergoros.4398:

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

Then u not using your char at his 100%. Most likely u even one of this true heroes who goes in melee and then 1-1-1-1-1. Yep. This guys wont notice any difference. Im playing mesmer and allways change my traits depending on boss. Need range? Pistols. Need melee? Focus. Long range fight with probable casualitys? Mantras. Need reflect? Warden reflection. And etc and etc. I can change to glamours. I can change to signets distortion. So much flexibility. How can u even compare it to wooden mesmer of 35 lvl?

None of what you just mentioned is trait specific and yet you’re attacking me because you think I don’t swap traits? A lvl 35 mesmer can swap in any of those weapons and any of those skills for whatever circumstance you just outlined.

Now try again. You’re getting closer to the meat of the difference though.

Weapons. Not traits. In example. Weapon traits give u lower cd. Clone trait gives u less cd on clones. Warden reflection doubles the dmg of any projectile i reflect with warden.
Healing mantras giving u ability to heal allys. And etc and etc. Wy should i even mention it? Like someone said… l2p and know it yourself

Lower level does not mean no traits. It only means less traits. A good player will still trait for maximum effectiveness.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Traits. Im talking about traits. Any players, that plays at 100% of his char would tell ya, that traits is vital to his char. With just 1 trait i can double my dmg against 1 enemy. And this is just 1 trait. And this 35 lvl lack not only 1 trait. He lacks 2 branches of the whole trait tree.

Traits are vital for full effectiveness, yes, but a skilled player will make full use of what traits they do have. And a majority of sub-80 players are at or above level 40, at which they have access to the master level where most of the crucial traits are. Yes, an 80 will be better. Noone is arguing that. We are just saying that it will not be like night and day. It will be a small difference if the player is skilled.

em….. u do realize, that 1 is less, then 2.5? 2,5 times less. Even if u have 1 vital trait. U still missing on 2 others. And thats day and night difference.

Sergoros.4398:

Sergoros.4398:

U sure u have any 80 chars? Or u have only 5 80 lvl wars? Cause ill say difference is HUGE.

Check my sig, good sir. Not a warrior or mesmer at 80 yet. My first 80 (and my main) is a ranger. So no easy-mode here.

Thief…yeh…no easy mode. yep…. Guardian isnt hard too… So half of your classes is easy mode =p.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

Then u not using your char at his 100%. Most likely u even one of this true heroes who goes in melee and then 1-1-1-1-1. Yep. This guys wont notice any difference. Im playing mesmer and allways change my traits depending on boss. Need range? Pistols. Need melee? Focus. Long range fight with probable casualitys? Mantras. Need reflect? Warden reflection. And etc and etc. I can change to glamours. I can change to signets distortion. So much flexibility. How can u even compare it to wooden mesmer of 35 lvl?

None of what you just mentioned is trait specific and yet you’re attacking me because you think I don’t swap traits? A lvl 35 mesmer can swap in any of those weapons and any of those skills for whatever circumstance you just outlined.

Now try again. You’re getting closer to the meat of the difference though.

Weapons. Not traits. In example. Weapon traits give u lower cd. Clone trait gives u less cd on clones. Warden reflection doubles the dmg of any projectile i reflect with warden.
Healing mantras giving u ability to heal allys. And etc and etc. Wy should i even mention it? Like someone said… l2p and know it yourself

Lower level does not mean no traits. It only means less traits. A good player will still trait for maximum effectiveness.

That would be way lower, then max effectiveness, of max lvl char…

I’ve seen groups of kitten level 80s in crafted exotics wipe on AC Explore repeatedly because they can’t do Hodgin’s DPS check.

And then I had another run where two of us brought 3 <50 players in. We completed all three paths flawlessly, and even got 2 Kholer kills across 3 attempts.

Scaling is fun. Geared level 80s who think they’re hot kitten are not.

All these arguments of sub-80s not having the same traits as level 80s does not take into account one thing. Player skill. If all players are playing optimally, yes an 80 will be better. Noone is arguing against that.

I have personally found that most lower level players in dungeons (those that it is not their first time) are overall better players than most 80s. This makes sense as they need to be to be able to complete the content well. Many (though not all, thankfully) 80s, especially those who insist on 80 only parties, rely too much on their gear and not enough on their skill and on teamwork.

Afoxi.6854:

I’ve seen groups of kitten level 80s in crafted exotics wipe on AC Explore repeatedly because they can’t do Hodgin’s DPS check.

And then I had another run where two of us brought 3 <50 players in. We completed all three paths flawlessly, and even got 2 Kholer kills across 3 attempts.

Scaling is fun. Geared level 80s who think they’re hot kitten are not.

Sure. There is noobs among 80 lvls. But there is much more noobs amongs <80. Thats obvious. Noob=/= kitten Noob is basicaly a newbie. So thats obvious, that among low levels ull find more newbies. Though there is a kitten among any groups. U can’t use kitten 80 lvls groups against pro skilled 35 lvl group. U should measure best 80 lvl group u been in and best <80 group u been in. That would be your answer.

SynfulChaot.3169:

All these arguments of sub-80s not having the same traits as level 80s does not take into account one thing. Player skill. If all players are playing optimally, yes an 80 will be better. Noone is arguing against that.

I have personally found that most lower level players in dungeons (those that it is not their first time) are overall better players than most 80s. This makes sense as they need to be to be able to complete the content well. Many (though not all, thankfully) 80s, especially those who insist on 80 only parties, rely too much on their gear and not enough on their skill and on teamwork.

My experience is different. Most times i remember <80 in dungeons with me. – its them dead on the ground asking for rez. Most of the time we dont even bother to return for them after skip. Just do dungeon with 4 of us, cause thats faster, then being perma rez machine.

And yes. Today I had 59 war in my team. Exactly same experience. Yep. He even had high achivements. Looks like it didnt help.

And also…this arguments not taking into account player skill, cause player skill have only 1 thin thread, that links to levels. And this thread is in a high level argument side. Cause there is higher chance, that when player invested more time in game – his skill will be higher. Thats just how numbers work.

Sergoros.4398:

Sure. There is noobs among 80 lvls. But there is much more noobs amongs <80. Thats obvious. Noob=/= kitten Noob is basicaly a newbie. So thats obvious, that among low levels ull find more newbies. Though there is a kitten among any groups. U can’t use kitten 80 lvls groups against pro skilled 35 lvl group. U should measure best 80 lvl group u been in and best <80 group u been in. That would be your answer.

Again, we all know that equally experienced players will always be better on an 80. That has never been questioned. We are saying that there is no real reason not to party with them as the difference in completion time of dungeons is small if they are skilled.

Sergoros.4398:

And also…this arguments not taking into account player skill, cause player skill have only 1 thin thread, that links to levels. And this thread is in a high level argument side. Cause there is higher chance, that when player invested more time in game – his skill will be higher. Thats just how numbers work.

Unfortunately, time spent in games does not necessarily mean skill. It would be great if it did, but it does not. I have met highly skilled players not yet at 80 and I have met terrible players in full exotics at 80 (and wondered how they got them). I have, of course, also met bad sub-80s and great 80s.

All I am saying is that, unless you are outright going for/arranging a speedrun, you should accept people of any level in your dungeon runs.

Honestly it really is all down to player skill, I’d take an experienced person over an inexperienced person any day if given the choice, no matter the level (well preferably meeting the dungeon’s recommended lvl anyways).

And nor would I agree that just b/c you’re low lvl, you are a newbie. So unless you’re doing really optimized runs, it shouldn’t matter who you bring to the party if they know how the dungeon works and how their class works. Esp. considering how lots of low lvl characters are actually alts and that dungeons aren’t particularly hard to get the hang of in the first place……

It is true however considering you can’t measure skill, a lvl 80 would be more preferable to a lvl 40 just b/c the lvl 80 “should” be more experienced. However with that sort of attitude, the low lvl people can never learn or improve if they’re truly new. So as has been shown about the whole downscaling thing, it really doesn’t matter who you party with unless you’re in a min/max situation.

And for those players who’ve had bad experiences with low lvls…that’s basically a skill issue, whether high lvl or low lvl…skill-less is skill-less. And having issue about having fewer traits…jeez it doesn’t matter unless you’re doing optimized farm runs…since dungeons aren’t terribly difficult in the first place to actually require ALL your traits…

Ahh I repeat myself so much.

Leo G.4501:

Sticks.9374:

I agree that what you said here is a good example of elitism. Not bringing sub 80s to dungeons is not in fact elitism. And you can quote all the level 80’s you have and thousands of hours you have played at me you want. If someone keeps telling me that a wall is red and they show me diagrams and quote threads and go on and on and on about how this wall is red and I keep looking at it and seeing a blue wall(MY experience) I don’t care how many times you say it because MY experience has shown something else. I will do a dungeon with anyone of any class even if they are new to it but every time I have done with a sub 80 EVERY KITTEN TIME it’s ended badly so sorry sir, for me at least the wall is blue. Label me an elitist in ignorance if you want but I am one of the nicest, friendliest, social, and helpful people in game and I refuse to do it.

So theoretically speaking, the devs could outright patch the game and tell you straight out that they’re making level 80s weaker in downscaled dungeons than appropriately level players in lower level instances and you’d still put corn cobs in your ears and go on thinking what you want?
.

No I am not saying this. I am saying basically that I have ran with sub 80s (CoF excluded because 75 is basically close enough)and I am done. If they changed stuff some more, then I would try again but as it stands now I am done. When I referenced people in the post before I was speaking of people in the forums, not the devs.

I am far more open to the idea of change and making it better to do this. Far more open to it than you are to see things from my perspective. Maybe that’s a bigger problem than stupid dungeons in a game.

If you want to take sub 80s, go ahead just leave me out of it.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Sure. There is noobs among 80 lvls. But there is much more noobs amongs <80. Thats obvious. Noob=/= kitten Noob is basicaly a newbie. So thats obvious, that among low levels ull find more newbies. Though there is a kitten among any groups. U can’t use kitten 80 lvls groups against pro skilled 35 lvl group. U should measure best 80 lvl group u been in and best <80 group u been in. That would be your answer.

Again, we all know that equally experienced players will always be better on an 80. That has never been questioned. We are saying that there is no real reason not to party with them as the difference in completion time of dungeons is small if they are skilled.

But u can’t test the skill without wasting time. And no one likes to waste time. So u can’t say “take this <80, cause there is a chance, that he would be skilled.”. Nope. It wont work. Unskilled 80 lvl at least have some gear/trait/experience noob shield, which helps him to survive. Unskilled <80 lvl doesnt even have this. So. By probability. Chances, that 80 lvl run would go smoothly is higher, then <80 lvl run.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

And also…this arguments not taking into account player skill, cause player skill have only 1 thin thread, that links to levels. And this thread is in a high level argument side. Cause there is higher chance, that when player invested more time in game – his skill will be higher. Thats just how numbers work.

Unfortunately, time spent in games does not necessarily mean skill. It would be great if it did, but it does not. I have met highly skilled players not yet at 80 and I have met terrible players in full exotics at 80 (and wondered how they got them). I have, of course, also met bad sub-80s and great 80s.

All I am saying is that, unless you are outright going for/arranging a speedrun, you should accept people of any level in your dungeon runs.

Thats wy i said thin link. Not a great prove to everything! Just a thin line. Again…by probability, higher level/achivement players would do better, then low ones, cause more time u spent in game, more time you had to learn, how your class works. Thats all about it. Today me would roflstomp myself of 5 monthes ago. Cause I know much more about my class and the game, then before.

It doesnt mean, that bad player would suddenly become good. But he would become better, than he was before. Thats how gaming world works. More time u invest – better player u become. Even if a player is not very smart and keep pushing bad build of his char….he still would do better with this build, then before, cause he would train timings better and better.

Sure, There is genius low lvls and “not smart” high levels, But if u take whole picture, and not only small frame of it… ull get same answer. By probability, your run would do better with 4 random 80, than with 4 random 35.

i used to cringe soo much when a “below 80” joins the group.
but after reading this whole thread.. i actually won’t mind that much anymore.
the “minimum stat difference from downlvling” stuff..

Grounder.7381:

i used to cringe soo much when a “below 80” joins the group.
but after reading this whole thread.. i actually won’t mind that much anymore.
the “minimum stat difference from downlvling” stuff..

Yay! The more you know!

If anyone needs a full level 80 team in exotics for low level dungeons, they are the ones that need to learn to play. No traits are so vital to be needed in those dungeons.

As for those who have level 80 players but are playing with their lower character, let them play as the wish. I do it to learn how to play my character, instead of being at level 80, being bad and not knowing a thing about my new profession.

Speedrun are something else. If you want to do a speedrun you aren’t only bringing your best gear character, you are taking the profession that is the best suited for this dungeon.

Hito.7309:

Do what everyone else does. Stick your twink in the zone your doing dungeon in. Switch at last boss from 80 to twink at 10%. get xp credit on twink. Lots of people do this, and it’s considered acceptable by most everyone cause it doesn’t gimp the run at all. Still nice and fast. Plus look at it this way, you run your 80 you get 80 loot the entire time, it’s a win win.

And thats the main reason so many 80s are so bad players, because they don’t learn anything of the class they are powerleveling, a good player level doing dungeons and learning, really learning the class he is leveling in group.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I can guarantee that many that run low level charas in dungeons are more skilled than a good number of geared 80s. Just recently I ran AC and saw a level 35 or so engineer outperform a level 80 warrior. I’d take that engineer over that warrior every time. It is not level or class that matters. It is skill.

Again:

If a player at level 35 plays good, he’ll be even better on a lvl 80 character. That’s not arguable.

So a player who goes to dungeon on a low-level character is slacking, no matter HOW he plays. Slowing the progress of the party while recieving full rewards = leeching.

It’s all quite obvious.

And I’m really tired of all this “low levels are skilled, high level are unskilled” crap. Really? Skill ceiling in most dungeons is exceptionally low. But lvl 80 exotics allows player to make mistakes without going down immediately (and everyone makes mistakes sooner or later) and gives more damage to make the run faster.

A good sub-80 with even level gear does not put as much dps as a full exotic 80. You can’t argue that. They may survive longer, rez and laugh at the bad exotic 80. Unless that 80 is downed most of the fight, that sub-80 will not pull the same dps.

As for the real “issue”. Carry. What is your personal opinion of carry? A sub-80 dodging and evading doing less dmg when the 80’s kills the boss? Or rez the 80 everytime he is downed? Sub-80 got downed 0 times, does little dps, used some of his utilites, claims he did as much for the team as the 80? Or does the 80, downed a few times, still pulls huge dps, claims he carried the “nub” sub-80?

This is teamwork, in a PUG or guildgroup, no one is equal. Someone will always do something better than others. I never kick lowbies nor ask for heavies on lfg and don’t mind helping new players. But when people start claiming most teams with a few sub-80’s are as fast or good as a full exotic 80’s team, i do think you want to be powerlvled.

As others stated before me, always expect the worse in PUGs. Play your best game, carry or get carried. Make your own team with your own rules and stop complaining of elitist kittens and ignorant noobs.

I don’t discriminate on level as long as it’s above the minimum requirement.

Sure, a lvl 80 is faster due to higher stats, that’s not debatable but honestly … I don’t care about fast. I care about fun. Lower level people tend to be a bit more fun. Whether twinks or newbies, I feel pretty good about helping other people.

I have been leveling my new guardian in AC so I’ve done a lot of runs this weekend and didn’t have any problems getting a group. However I noticed a lot of my 80 teammates going down or dying a lot more than me so level ain’t nothing but a number it seems!

rozcinana.7249:

I have been leveling my new guardian in AC so I’ve done a lot of runs this weekend and didn’t have any problems getting a group. However I noticed a lot of my 80 teammates going down or dying a lot more than me so level ain’t nothing but a number it seems!

Heh. Remembered 1 thing, thats gone unmentioned in this thread. Aggro. Mob usualy attks players with highest dps and highest armor. What can we get from it? The lowbie…who survive better, cause his dps is crap and he have no armor.

So yep, High level, who practicaly carrying a leecher on his back would die more, then leecher, who pretends, that he is doing smth. Well…Thats just another side of the coin. Imho high levels still have no right to be downed more often, than lowbie -_-. But average 80 lvl might be trapped such way.

If the level scaling was where it needed to be (level 80 characters scaled down to the dungeon’s level are still more powerful than a character who is equal to the dungeon’s level) this would likely be a non-issue. The latest patch attempted to adjust scaling to be more accurate but it still has a long way to go. Until then, I’m not surprised people are opting for companions with more raw power (although it is unfortunate).

As long as the poster states who they want and requirements of that person, I have no issues. Its when the poster does not state “expectations” and gets angry when you don’t run or not enough AR etc….. This game requires patients. I like the pug groups to help those that have trouble with the fractals. Most times they will add me to their friends list so we can do other dungeons as well. I tend to stay away from those players who demand a certain player with specific armor blah blah blah. Its a game, not a job.

Isslair.4908:

If a player at level 35 plays good, he’ll be even better on a lvl 80 character. That’s not arguable.

So a player who goes to dungeon on a low-level character is slacking, no matter HOW he plays. Slowing the progress of the party while recieving full rewards = leeching.

Slowing the progress ? You don’t need a level 35 to slow down your team. I’ve encountered enough players, regardless of level, that do that well enough.
Talk about exaggerating…

And if they can’t correctly play their level 80, I’d prefer they come with something they are more comfortable with. Or a class that can bring more helpful utilities. Between a level 80 ranger and a level 45 mesmer, I’d choose the mesmer in CM.

Sergoros.4398:

Heh. Remembered 1 thing, thats gone unmentioned in this thread. Aggro. Mob usualy attks players with highest dps and highest armor. What can we get from it? The lowbie…who survive better, cause his dps is crap and he have no armor.

So yep, High level, who practicaly carrying a leecher on his back would die more, then leecher, who pretends, that he is doing smth. Well…Thats just another side of the coin. Imho high levels still have no right to be downed more often, than lowbie -_-. But average 80 lvl might be trapped such way.

Your first paragraph makes a good point about aggro that I didn’t think of before I posted my previous comment, but then you ruined it with the second paragraph by calling players under 80 leechers and claiming that we don’t add anything of use to the group. Anyone that meets or is above the recommended level for a dungeon shouldn’t be considered a leecher. And being complimented and thanked for my contributions despite my character being in her 40-50s in a few of my PUGs over the weekend tells me that I sure as hell did something for the group. Don’t generalize, some of us “lowbies” know what we’re doing and know how to maximize what we got.

Boy, this forum is great for weeding out people I would never want to play with.

Sticks.9374:

No I am not saying this. I am saying basically that I have ran with sub 80s (CoF excluded because 75 is basically close enough)and I am done. If they changed stuff some more, then I would try again but as it stands now I am done. When I referenced people in the post before I was speaking of people in the forums, not the devs.

Well the theoretical I mentioned may or may not be true. That is, before, the amount of difference between an 80 and non-80 character was quite miniscule if they were both geared similarly. But there has been a change less than a month ago and no one knows anything about how it actually changed things. That’s the main reason I’m even continuing to comment on this. People acting out of ignorance is always a travesty and as a human being you should know that.

I am far more open to the idea of change and making it better to do this. Far more open to it than you are to see things from my perspective. Maybe that’s a bigger problem than stupid dungeons in a game.

Funny that, I’m actually in your same perspective. I don’t even have any non-80 characters so me ‘fighting’ for the rights of non-80s to team would be me looking past my own perspective as a person that mainly only teams with lvl 80 players. But I’m not even fighting, I’m just making it known that misconceptions are present. What you think is a big difference isn’t.

If you want to take sub 80s, go ahead just leave me out of it.

Again, if you’ve read my posts, I don’t care who you group with. If you want to exclude non-80 characters from your groups that’s your preparative, if you want to kick any engineers that ask to join that’s your preference, if you think anything but greatsword warrior isn’t worth your time then that is your choice.

I’m trying to speak of the big picture though. It’s a cycle of what is in my opinion, destructive. The way people see dungeons as portrayed by the people ‘farming’ them, it’s not okay to play these instances at their proper levels, that it’s ‘harder’ to do them on the level or even impossible. Or how about that no one has attacked the people that swap out their lvl 80 and jump on a low level to get the rewards? I’m sure if a dev could comment on that, they’d express how cheap it is and how bad it makes them feel that people have to exploit parts of the game to get by when it’s definitely not necessary.

How can you even sit there and accept people pulling that crap but it’s apparently wrong to just play the game straight or that it in some way punishes people that team with players that do play the game straight?

Even little things, like how people refer to characters that aren’t level 80 as ‘sub-80’ while also describing their capabilities as sub-standard? It all comes with a venomous undertone that just makes your stance unsteady as time passes. If it’s not okay to play dungeons until 80, people grind until they are. Then when they get into those dungeons, they have no idea what they’re doing or how to play the profession. They gain some understanding but feel cheated because it’s not ‘easy’ like they were promised. They get jaded because they have to grind tokens for gear so they aren’t below the standard of their level and then they pass this crap on to others who want to learn how to play their class now and learn the content then. They kick ‘nubs’ for leeching while they themselves leech off of people who have their exotics and know what the content.

All in all, this whole misconception about capabilities to run dungeons just creates standard that lessens how many people will run dungeons as a whole. The ‘leeching’, ‘carrying’ etc nonsense is beyond ignorant but I’d be lying if I’d say I’m at a loss for words by it.

Sergoros.4398:

Weapons. Not traits. In example. Weapon traits give u lower cd. Clone trait gives u less cd on clones. Warden reflection doubles the dmg of any projectile i reflect with warden.
Healing mantras giving u ability to heal allys. And etc and etc. Wy should i even mention it? Like someone said… l2p and know it yourself

Ah yes, the weapon traits. Granted lower cooldown on things like the Prestige or Chaos Storm is nice, it’s hardly a trait someone needs to be able to swap to that weapon and use it for what effects it has. I was unaware Warden’s Feedback had any effect on the damage reflected projectiles had, besides retaliation, I thought it just made things reflected. However, if such a trait is pivotal, it’s only a Master trait and can be obtained by a lvl 35 character. Healing mantras, on the other hand, are a gimmick at best.

There are a few traits for mesmer that really turn their effects up, but they are hardly going to net you so much of a difference that a lvl 80 mesmer will completely overshadow.

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. Recommended level is a good measurement of what you need to beat a dungeon. It is not asking for trouble. Now if you are talking of speed-clears, then yes, you do want 80s for that. But unless a group is explicitly looking for a speed-clear, there is no reason to exclude sub-80s.

That’s just plain non sense. Anyone with half a brain would see going to an exp dungeon with only characters at the recommended level is asking for trouble. (Unless you are talking about dungeons like arah, in which case it’s 80 anyway)

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you are arguing sub-80s in poor gear vs geared 80s, then yes, you are correct. But we are talking of sub-80 charas that are properly geared. A properly geared sub-80 can be as much of a boon as a fully exotic geared 80 in the right hands. And a properly geared 80 can be a liability if not in the right hands.

Wrong. Unless you magically get your hands on a full set of sub lvl 80 exotics that are exactly at your sub 80’s level you are not going to compete with a lvl 80 with full exotics.

Not to mention the fact that you don’t have as many trait points or skill points.

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong. Fractals IS a dungeon instance no matter how you try to twist it.

No one ever said good gear guarantees success. You just came up with that strawman by yourself.

In fact it was yourself that said fractals took good gear originally and I was just pointing out that you agreed with my point by saying that.

Dungeons are Dungeons and Fractals are Fractals. I don’t know anyone else who plays fractals at the various levels who equate the two as the same. They have differing set-ups and rewards people have different expectations for each.

Your denials are irrelevant and doesn’t change the fact that fotm is a dungeon instance.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/fractals-of-the-mists-dungeon-improvements/

Note how it is labeled FRACTALS OF THE MISTS DUNGEON by the creators of the game.

RedStar.4218:

You don’t need a level 35 to slow down your team. I’ve encountered enough players, regardless of level, that do that well enough.

So what’s the point in talking about bad players at all? They’ll be bad regardless of level. And even then lvl 80 gives him chanse to survive the mistake.

The only argument all these leacher-defenders are using is that low levels are super-skilled pros and all the lvl 80s are bad braindead people.
This is really ridiculous.

And if they can’t correctly play their level 80, I’d prefer they come with something they are more comfortable with.

Now this is such a strawman.
If one can’t play correctly on a lvl 80 character with hundred hours of gameplay, he won’t be able to play on a low level character with no traits, skills and experience.