Guild Wars 2

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Eh…wy its so hard… Look. He can have only 25 trait points. That means, if this mesmer would go for focus (most effective imho). He would get put all 25 trait points in inspiration line and get: Best choice would be heal conditions on heal, warden reflection and sub trait for +15% dmg.

Now. He loses 15% dmg from 1-st trait line. He loses fury on phantoms. He loses 20% lower cd on clones. he loses 20% cd on sword. He loses 20% cd on gs.

That would be much more, then 20% dmg loss. im just trying not to overestimate traits to much.

Yes. U would say, that only my build so special, and there is some magical build, where 25 traits is enough to faceroll everything. Show it to me pls. Then ill check it and say how much u lose.

25 trait points are enough to do well enough to hold your own. You could still build a quite effective build around what you do have access to. What that build would be, I don’t know. My mes is not there yet. No, you will not be as efficient as an 80. But you will not be holding everyone else back, either.

I think, what implys to my mesmer, implys to any other class or build. U can get at least 20% more dmg with traits. Or survivability. Or smth else very usefull for you or your team.

What im trying to make u understand, that if player is 20% less effective, he would give 20% less then other 80 lvl teamates give. And thus, basicaly, being carried on.

The difference is not that great. I see nothing in any classes traitlines that will keep them doing that much less damage.

Remember also that your build is built around having those traits. A lower level may choose different weapons and different traits to maximize their usefulness and power at lower level. As I leveled my charas, builds changed several times to maximize my usefulness as I gained the ability to trait differently.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Downleveling takes into account that lower levels do not have exotics. It does balance out stats taking into account best-in-slot at that level.

How about you actually provide some evidence of this rather than spewing it like it’s the truth despite all observable evidence of actual experience to the contrary?

Ok. I thought I had linked this enough, but I guess not.

Here we go. Please follow the links here and here for information on Dynamic Level Adjustment and how it works.

It’s only an unofficial look by a few people but let’s say it’s true:

According to that post there’s still an advantage, and there’s no mention of sigils or runes in the comparison, which makes a huge difference.

Also, the biggest part left out in the comparison is the TRAITS themselves. (Not the stat benefit but the trait abilities)

If you are below 60 for example you won’t have any of the grandmaster traits, which makes or breaks alot of builds.

Then there’s the access to foods, which is not mentioned in the comparison.

There’s a reason why most people don’t like to take sub 80s, it’s not because of so called elitism but rather practicality.

I’ve ran hundreds of dungeon runs in my time and from my experience about 90% of the times where a sub lvl 80 is in the team it either take longer or in some instances wipes while that number is lower with all 80s.

In fact I just ran COF 1 earlier tonight with a sub 80, the guy couldn’t even survive in the brazier area and ran around the brazier area forcing us to reset the encounter twice.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Eh…wy its so hard… Look. He can have only 25 trait points. That means, if this mesmer would go for focus (most effective imho). He would get put all 25 trait points in inspiration line and get: Best choice would be heal conditions on heal, warden reflection and sub trait for +15% dmg.

Now. He loses 15% dmg from 1-st trait line. He loses fury on phantoms. He loses 20% lower cd on clones. he loses 20% cd on sword. He loses 20% cd on gs.

That would be much more, then 20% dmg loss. im just trying not to overestimate traits to much.

Yes. U would say, that only my build so special, and there is some magical build, where 25 traits is enough to faceroll everything. Show it to me pls. Then ill check it and say how much u lose.

25 trait points are enough to do well enough to hold your own. You could still build a quite effective build around what you do have access to. What that build would be, I don’t know. My mes is not there yet. No, you will not be as efficient as an 80. But you will not be holding everyone else back, either.

I think, what implys to my mesmer, implys to any other class or build. U can get at least 20% more dmg with traits. Or survivability. Or smth else very usefull for you or your team.

What im trying to make u understand, that if player is 20% less effective, he would give 20% less then other 80 lvl teamates give. And thus, basicaly, being carried on.

The difference is not that great. I see nothing in any classes traitlines that will keep them doing that much less damage.

Remember also that your build is built around having those traits. A lower level may choose different weapons and different traits to maximize their usefulness and power at lower level. As I leveled my charas, builds changed several times to maximize my usefulness as I gained the ability to trait differently.

So…only mesmers r so special? Pls…ask your guildies. I dunno. Found someone who u think is a pro player with his class. Ask him how much weaker would be perfect 35 lvl of his class to perfect 80 lvl of the same class. With stats being even.

I bet his answer would be the same. Difference is Huge.

I don’t think Anet wanted it to be hard for people at the required level for a dungeon to find a group. In my experience on my first character ever…
I started with story mode, AC, at 35ish. Moved on to story mode CM around high 40s. Then story mode TA at exactly 50. I will say that I did these without other lv 80s in my group, but that was a few months ago. They were definitely challenging, but it was fun and rewarding when we finished them because we worked through them together. Why did I do dungeons around the recommended level? …because I got a note in my mailbox from a herald telling me that I should go there! It’s part of the game (technically), but it has become something different. As time progressed it became too hard to find groups for story mode for the other dungeons, and since I wanted to experience the stories in the order of the dungeons, I gave up and just reached 80 without doing the rest of them.

Now I don’t have much of a problem finding groups, thanks to gw2lfg, but apparently there is an avoidance of non heavy armor/mesmer classes in certain dungeons, or in general (which I haven’t really felt personally even though I play a ranger, but I’ve read posts that talk about this issue). I have never been kicked from a pug, I think that I have only done pugs actually in my entire time of dungeon running…

Anyway, for me, speed running groups have been very odd and I just hate the vibe. Maybe two words spoken the entire time. Maybe even fun the first time because you’re astounded at how quickly it goes by. But after that… let’s just say it’s not my style. I really liked the way I used to tackle these dungeons, when my characters were at the recommended levels, in a party of others in the same boat, having a good time, dying sometimes, coming up with strategies, etc.. Doing dungeons at lv 80 when they’re 20-40 levels below your gear’s level is just not challenging. I think that the problem with the way that dungeons are treated right now is that there is no separate “level 80 version” or “hard mode,” so they’re being exploited/overrun by lv 80 players. Explorable modes were leaning towards the concept of a more difficult version, but they’re still around the same level of the story mode. Perhaps when a character hits 80, all dungeons for them could become scaled up to level 80 and then they can only complete it with lv 80 groups.

Obviously there would be a downside to this, because what if you’re level 80 and you want to play with your lower level friend, etc. etc… but anyway, something to that effect needs to be implemented, because exploitation is getting a little out of hand. I don’t think the point of dungeons is to run them in 6 minutes (cough cough CoF). All-in-all, who says that my playstyle should dictate what others do? I can’t tell people not to speed-run, that’s not my place. I’m just pointing out that what dungeons have become is way off-target from your intentions, Anet. It’s resulting in this phenomenon: new players " can’t " do dungeons until they’re lv 80, which doesn’t necessarily mean that they properly learned their kitten about how to play their class. I learned a lot about how to really play from the challenges presented in the dungeons when I was near the recommended level. Players are missing out on the opportunity of doing dungeons when technically they’re “supposed to be able to.”

tl,dr: but if you want to, just read the last sentence.

Yelabela.2718:

… All-in-all, who says that my playstyle should dictate what others do? I can’t tell people not to speed-run, that’s not my place. I’m just pointing out that what dungeons have become is way off-target from your intentions, Anet. It’s resulting in this phenomenon: new players " can’t " do dungeons until they’re lv 80, which doesn’t necessarily mean that they properly learned their kitten about how to play their class. I learned a lot about how to really play from the challenges presented in the dungeons when I was near the recommended level. Players are missing out on the opportunity of doing dungeons when technically they’re “supposed to be able to.”

Players should not be feeling this pressure from the vocal elitist minority. All players should feel welcome to play the content as they reach the suggested level for the dungeon. Players should not feel obligated to be level 80 before doing content designed for lower levels.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yelabela.2718:

… All-in-all, who says that my playstyle should dictate what others do? I can’t tell people not to speed-run, that’s not my place. I’m just pointing out that what dungeons have become is way off-target from your intentions, Anet. It’s resulting in this phenomenon: new players " can’t " do dungeons until they’re lv 80, which doesn’t necessarily mean that they properly learned their kitten about how to play their class. I learned a lot about how to really play from the challenges presented in the dungeons when I was near the recommended level. Players are missing out on the opportunity of doing dungeons when technically they’re “supposed to be able to.”

Players should not be feeling this pressure from the vocal elitist minority. All players should feel welcome to play the content as they reach the suggested level for the dungeon. Players should not feel obligated to be level 80 before doing content designed for lower levels.

It’s more like the vocal complainer minority.

I’d love it if everyone can team up together too but the fact is dungeons are just not setup that way.

In other words, don’t hate the player, hate the game.

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Players should not be feeling this pressure from the vocal elitist minority. All players should feel welcome to play the content as they reach the suggested level for the dungeon. Players should not feel obligated to be level 80 before doing content designed for lower levels.

It’s more like the vocal complainer minority.

I’d love it if everyone can team up together too but the fact is dungeons are just not setup that way.

In other words, don’t hate the player, hate the game.

No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.

A skilled and geared lvl 80 team beats a dungeon the fastest. That’s an undeniable fact of the game. No amount of strawman arguments like skill>gear is going to change that. Some people simply want the fastest possible run and require perfectly geared max level people for that.

Whether or not you want to play with people who only care about the fastest run is a different discussion entirely. Personally I don’t.

marnick.4305:

A skilled and geared lvl 80 team beats a dungeon the fastest. That’s an undeniable fact of the game. No amount of strawman arguments like skill>gear is going to change that. Some people simply want the fastest possible run and require perfectly geared max level people for that.

Whether or not you want to play with people who only care about the fastest run is a different discussion entirely. Personally I don’t.

If you only do speed runs, label your groups as such. Kicking others that are not 80 instead is not the way to do it.

If you’re just going for standard dungeon clears instead of speed runs, though, then excluding all sub-80s is quite elitist.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Searched the reddit. Found no mention of sigils or runes. I’ll be able to do the checking myself once I get yet another alt to 35.

I looked through my history but still can’t find the posts I had read but this is child’s play to test.

Right now, on my power warrior: he has no traits or equipment that enhances condition damage or healing power so those stats are both 0. I went to Orr to check lvl 80 stats and Blazeridge Steppes to check lvl 46 stats. I used basic white gear equipped with Superior Runes of Grenth and his Warhorn just so happens to have a Superior Sigil of Life.

Lvl 80
Condition damage = 183
Healing Power + 1 stack of Sigil of Life = 10

Lvl 46
Condition damage = 76
Healing Power + 1 stack of Sigil of Life = 7

Interestingly enough, the sigil stack is exactly the same as what you’d get from a Major Sigil of Life which is a lvl which is level 39. I’d hypothesize if I were downscaled below level 39, the bonus would be dropped to 5 but if I moved to a level 60 area I’d be bumped back to 10.

I don’t believe stats like boon duration, duration on specific conditions, critical chance and +% damage bonuses from sigils/runes show on the hero panel so that would be difficult to test. Also, this could all just be an error of the hero panel and it’s not showing my stats accurately. That would require parsing condition damage and/or healing done…

@ Leo G Thanks for the thoughtful and non personal reply you made to my post earlier in this thread, It kind of got buried but I appreciate you writing such a long and detailed reply. I do see your point and get it. What I really gonna say now as I have yet to do this is roll another mesmer to lvl 35 and have average gear and try AC myself and see how it goes. I will update my thoughts on this thread once I’m done.

I agree with the OP. Some people should get off from their high horses.
Seriously. This is just a game. If someone proclaims it is work, said person doesn’t understand the meaning of playing a game.

Other than that, I find it increasingly difficult and rather frustrating that nobody does story dungeons, every. I merely find like 1 other person every time I shout. I wish Anet would somehow encourage people more. A looking for group tool would be nice.

Payadopa.4706:

I agree with the OP. Some people should get off from their high horses.
Seriously. This is just a game. If someone proclaims it is work, said person doesn’t understand the meaning of playing a game.

Other than that, I find it increasingly difficult and rather frustrating that nobody does story dungeons, every. I merely find like 1 other person every time I shout. I wish Anet would somehow encourage people more. A looking for group tool would be nice.

You may want to try using GW2LFG. You should be able to find a group without too much issue.

The problem with finding people for story mode is the rewards are very little (about 1/3 of explorable and no tokens) for people who have completed them already. This leads few to return to them. That is an oversight, and I hope they eventually add more incentive for people to return to them.

Yeah, I knew about GW2lfg.com (though, I haven’t tried it yet, but surely will now!).
I meant more like in-game. I find Anet rather competent, so it’ll find its way into the game eventually.

I didn’t know about the reward structure, though. Good to know.

Thanks for the reply!

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

If I take them – good for them and they should be thankful that they so lucky. If not – thats how world works, not all ppl and not allways want to waste time on carrying someone.

Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.

Renegade.6325:

A lot of nonsense in this thread.

If you havent even got level 80 on your character, you do not know your character well, in almost all cases.

Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.

…

“Knowledge of characters and classes " comes from playing. Playing gives levels. Therefore "Knowledge of characters and classes " comes from levels. Your mental gymnastics avoiding this conclusion are fascinating but flawed.

Payadopa.4706:

Yeah, I knew about GW2lfg.com (though, I haven’t tried it yet, but surely will now!).
I meant more like in-game. I find Anet rather competent, so it’s find its way into the game eventually.

I didn’t know about the reward structure, though. Good to know.

Thanks for the reply!

ANet has stated that they are working on an improved LFG tool. I am looking forward to when they do have it done, but until then GW2LFG is the go to for PUGs.

Renegade.6325:

“Knowledge of characters and classes " comes from playing. Playing gives levels. Therefore "Knowledge of characters and classes " comes from levels. Your mental gymnastics avoiding this conclusion are fascinating but flawed.

Some learn faster than others. Time spent is not necessarily indicative of skill.

And you can gain knowledge from more than just playing, FYI.

For those saying that those who have level 80s should only come with their alt during the final boss, I hope you are also part of the group of players who think that certain classes don’t belong in dungeons.
And that you are using the professions that is the most suited for the dungeon, and that you have the best food buffs and potions/oils/stones. Because I find it pretty stupid to complain about under level 80 characters when you aren’t min/maxing.

RedStar.4218:

For those saying that those who have level 80s should only come with their alt during the final boss, I hope you are also part of the group of players who think that certain classes don’t belong in dungeons.
And that you are using the professions that is the most suited for the dungeon, and that you have the best food buffs and potions/oils/stones. Because I find it pretty stupid to complain about under level 80 characters when you aren’t min/maxing.

Can’t speak for the others, but yeah I do use level 80 oils, stones and food as well as boosters. They also give better buffs than sub level 80s can get

This wasn’t a bad remark, I’m just saying that if you think that everyone should come as a level 80 in AC because it’s like leeching if they don’t, they shouldn’t be the only ones being forced to push for the best time.

When I see a speed run group where no one uses food/oils/potions/stones, it makes me wonder why they aren’t trying to be faster.

Checked back in after two more pages. Still no one answering the question…

If you don’t know the players, don’t know their gear, don’t know their build or skills, what is the potential upside for a max level group of taking a lower level?

I’ll put it another way. If the 80 you’re requesting or the lower-level you could have had are both ciphers to you, what’s the advantage of taking the lower level?

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Players should not be feeling this pressure from the vocal elitist minority. All players should feel welcome to play the content as they reach the suggested level for the dungeon. Players should not feel obligated to be level 80 before doing content designed for lower levels.

It’s more like the vocal complainer minority.

I’d love it if everyone can team up together too but the fact is dungeons are just not setup that way.

In other words, don’t hate the player, hate the game.

No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.

Wrong. The framework of the game is setup to encourage players to behave in a certain manner to achieve success or efficiency just like any other MMO.

You just happen to be one of the disgruntled players that can’t work within the system and instead of asking for systemic change in the game you are blaming people for finding ways to work within the system and not acting in the manner you wish.

That doesn’t work, has not worked, and never will work.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Checked back in after two more pages. Still no one answering the question…

If you don’t know the players, don’t know their gear, don’t know their build or skills, what is the potential upside for a max level group of taking a lower level?

I’ll put it another way. If the 80 you’re requesting or the lower-level you could have had are both ciphers to you, what’s the advantage of taking the lower level?

They don’t answer this question because they can’t. Since it destroys their argument completely.

So I dont know all thats been said cause there is 8 pages but heres my 2cents. I dont take lower lvls than 80s because.
1. You cant rez run anymore so if your low lvl person dies while skipping mobs they cant rez and come later you have to wait.
2. Yes your stats change but obviously a exotic 80 has way more stats and has access to all the food/stone/oil/potion buffs.
Thats it as far as low lvls. I also dont take theifs or rangers.
1. They die too fast.
2. They dont spec to support the group just them selfs.
3. Rangers dps just is kittens right now.
Disclaimer I know not all low lvls and all rangers and all thiefs are bad. When it comes to these I will only run with guildies that I know support and can pull their weight. Anyways when i form a group thats why i form it how I want it.
What i suggest is if you want to run the dungeon on a lower lvl toon create the group. Let everyone know its a come all group on gw2lfg.com
Call me elitist or what ever, but I took the time to run the story mode, and took the time to form the group. I got every right to take the time to form it how I want.

Wobels.1679:

So I dont know all thats been said cause there is 8 pages but heres my 2cents. I dont take lower lvls than 80s because.
1. You cant rez run anymore so if your low lvl person dies while skipping mobs they cant rez and come later you have to wait.
2. Yes your stats change but obviously a exotic 80 has way more stats and has access to all the food/stone/oil/potion buffs.
Thats it as far as low lvls. I also dont take theifs or rangers.
1. They die too fast.
2. They dont spec to support the group just them selfs.
3. Rangers dps just is kittens right now.
Disclaimer I know not all low lvls and all rangers and all thiefs are bad. When it comes to these I will only run with guildies that I know support and can pull their weight. Anyways when i form a group thats why i form it how I want it.
What i suggest is if you want to run the dungeon on a lower lvl toon create the group. Let everyone know its a come all group on gw2lfg.com
Call me elitist or what ever, but I took the time to run the story mode, and took the time to form the group. I got every right to take the time to form it how I want.

100% Agree.

If someone dies while skipping in AC or TA, they’ve got another problem than not being in exotics.

People ask for level 80 characters because they want to finish the dungeon fast, and not waste 30-50 minutes on 1 path to teach the new guy how everything works. The 1st time I went into AC, about level 65, it took a pretty long time to finish and the team got wiped a few times because some of us were new to the dungeon and had no idea what we should do.

While I do not like players that ask for lvl 80 without considering the player’s skill or knowledge of the dungeon (2 day ago i had a lvl 27 that performed better than some lvl 80), I understand why they do it: they want to finish fast and with as little difficulty as possible. After doing the same dungeon probably for dozens of times. they lose all interest in the experience and just want their reward.

It doesn’t help that many low level/new players, have no idea what they should do in the dungeon. Read a walk-through, watch videos of youtube so you don’t get your whole team killed on the 1st boss you meet.

There will always be people are elitist and there will be people complain about them. I’m neither. I will make 1 suggest to those looking for level 80 only people. Just make it known. Its not hard to put in your post. This clears up most things and you won’t have sub 80’s responding. I also let people know when I haven’t done a dungeon before. Its all about communication. I tend to go with my guild and don’t really like pug groups because that’s a preference of mine. There have been tough boss, broken mechanics, but generally the groups I’ve been a part of have been successful. I’ve swapped in the middle of a dungeon too, when things weren’t working well. Like hotw story, can’t remember the boss’ name, but we wiped several times until I switched my necro(my main(not because I’m a bad necro, but because something in our team needed to change to overcome this foe. I know my necro and I know her well.)) to my guardian and me and the warrior took turns snaring him. He was relatively easy after that. It was a big learning experience for us all. Anyhow, I suggest make it clear what you’re looking for when posting that would clear up a lot of issues.

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.

Wrong. The framework of the game is setup to encourage players to behave in a certain manner to achieve success or efficiency just like any other MMO.

You just happen to be one of the disgruntled players that can’t work within the system and instead of asking for systemic change in the game you are blaming people for finding ways to work within the system and not acting in the manner you wish.

That doesn’t work, has not worked, and never will work.

I am not disgruntled and I do work within the system. That does not mean I need to like the elitist elements in it.

DeathPanel.8362:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Checked back in after two more pages. Still no one answering the question…

If you don’t know the players, don’t know their gear, don’t know their build or skills, what is the potential upside for a max level group of taking a lower level?

I’ll put it another way. If the 80 you’re requesting or the lower-level you could have had are both ciphers to you, what’s the advantage of taking the lower level?

They don’t answer this question because they can’t. Since it destroys their argument completely.

If they are both at peak performance, the 80 will be faster. I have agreed with this multiple times now. But unless you specify that you are running 80s only beforehand, kicking sub-80s makes you a kitten.

soulartistrb.7509:

There will always be people are elitist and there will be people complain about them. I’m neither. I will make 1 suggest to those looking for level 80 only people. Just make it known. Its not hard to put in your post. This clears up most things and you won’t have sub 80’s responding.
…
Anyhow, I suggest make it clear what you’re looking for when posting that would clear up a lot of issues.

^ All of this. Do this and people will stop complaining at your behaviour. If you make it known that you will only play with other 80s, then your paths will not cross with the rest of ours and everyone remains happy.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.

Wrong. The framework of the game is setup to encourage players to behave in a certain manner to achieve success or efficiency just like any other MMO.

You just happen to be one of the disgruntled players that can’t work within the system and instead of asking for systemic change in the game you are blaming people for finding ways to work within the system and not acting in the manner you wish.

That doesn’t work, has not worked, and never will work.

I am not disgruntled and I do work within the system. That does not mean I need to like the elitist elements in it.

Do you think I do? The difference here is that I am ACTUALLY working within the system while you are the one trying to blame the symptoms of the system on players rather than the faults of the system itself.

The fact is even with down scaling a lvl 80 with exotics still far outclasses any low lvl and I’ve explained that many times already in this thread.

And because of that no pug team that cares about finishing dungeons quickly is going to accept a sub lvl 80.

I wish that wasn’t the case but it is. So your focus of ire on so called “elitists” is misplaced since the game is itself setup to promote behavior like that due to rational self interest and the fact that in a pug it’s all strangers.

swiftpaw.6397:

There are so many people wanting their lowbies to be taken in the lvl 80 groups, why not just form your own lowbie groups? I see them on the lfg a fair bit, people running their lowbie alts through, looking for more like-minded and like-leveled players.

Because the truth is they want to be carried.

There’s nothing preventing them from creating line in GW2LFG saying “AC exp all below 80 no speed run” for example. (Yet surprise surprise I’ve never seen such posts ever.)

If in fact sub lvl 80s have no trouble finishing explorables then they should have no problems forming teams with all sub 80s.

The FACT is they want to leech off the work of others and when called on it they fall back on their talking point about “elitists”.

They themselves know the truth and they are just shameless trying to use any kind of distortion or strawman arguments in order to avoid admitting that truth.

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.

Wrong. The framework of the game is setup to encourage players to behave in a certain manner to achieve success or efficiency just like any other MMO.

You just happen to be one of the disgruntled players that can’t work within the system and instead of asking for systemic change in the game you are blaming people for finding ways to work within the system and not acting in the manner you wish.

That doesn’t work, has not worked, and never will work.

I am not disgruntled and I do work within the system. That does not mean I need to like the elitist elements in it.

Do you think I do? The difference here is that I am ACTUALLY working within the system while you are the one trying to blame the symptoms of the system on players rather than the faults of the system itself.

The fact is even with down scaling a lvl 80 with exotics still far outclasses any low lvl and I’ve explained that many times already in this thread.

And because of that no pug team that cares about finishing dungeons quickly is going to accept a sub lvl 80.

I wish that wasn’t the case but it is. So your focus of ire on so called “elitists” is misplaced since the game is itself setup to promote behavior like that due to rational self interest and the fact that in a pug it’s all strangers.

It’s more than just this game, it’s pretty much all MMO’s. Harder content is all team content, and players are going to repeat at least some of it ad nauseam. Players play the content long past the time when that content is new and exciting, and it’s all because of the rewards. Is it any wonder, then, that they want speed?

This is going to continue until programmers can keep up with users, which would require innovations in programming, or until programmers make dungeons that change randomly each time they’re run. That, by the way, is what I envisioned when the devs talked about GW2 dungeons. It’s not, needless to say, what we got.

IndigoSundown.5419:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.

Wrong. The framework of the game is setup to encourage players to behave in a certain manner to achieve success or efficiency just like any other MMO.

You just happen to be one of the disgruntled players that can’t work within the system and instead of asking for systemic change in the game you are blaming people for finding ways to work within the system and not acting in the manner you wish.

That doesn’t work, has not worked, and never will work.

I am not disgruntled and I do work within the system. That does not mean I need to like the elitist elements in it.

Do you think I do? The difference here is that I am ACTUALLY working within the system while you are the one trying to blame the symptoms of the system on players rather than the faults of the system itself.

The fact is even with down scaling a lvl 80 with exotics still far outclasses any low lvl and I’ve explained that many times already in this thread.

And because of that no pug team that cares about finishing dungeons quickly is going to accept a sub lvl 80.

I wish that wasn’t the case but it is. So your focus of ire on so called “elitists” is misplaced since the game is itself setup to promote behavior like that due to rational self interest and the fact that in a pug it’s all strangers.

It’s more than just this game, it’s pretty much all MMO’s. Harder content is all team content, and players are going to repeat at least some of it ad nauseam. Players play the content long past the time when that content is new and exciting, and it’s all because of the rewards. Is it any wonder, then, that they want speed?

This is going to continue until programmers can keep up with users, which would require innovations in programming, or until programmers make dungeons that change randomly each time they’re run. That, by the way, is what I envisioned when the devs talked about GW2 dungeons. It’s not, needless to say, what we got.

That’s exactly true, that’s why the whole mentality of us vs “elitists” is ill formed and totally unconstructive.

What these people need to be complaining about is the fact that explorable dungeons are harder for teams with sub lvl 80s or the level scaling system itself.

Complaining about so-called Elitists who won’t accept them into their parties is pointless and at the end of the day they still won’t be accepted into parties based on their lvl.

DeathPanel.8362:

Because the truth is they want to be carried.

There’s nothing preventing them from creating line in GW2LFG saying “AC exp all below 80 no speed run” for example. (Yet surprise surprise I’ve never seen such posts ever.)

If in fact sub lvl 80s have no trouble finishing explorables then they should have no problems forming teams with all sub 80s.

The FACT is they want to leech off the work of others and when called on it they fall back on their talking point about “elitists”.

They themselves know the truth and they are just shameless trying to use any kind of distortion or strawman arguments in order to avoid admitting that truth.

Again, like I said, apparently there is never an ‘inbetween’ in discussions, is there?

Perhaps the thought that non-80s running dungeons are in the minority is too bizarre a notion to grasp. That perhaps the option to invite people to get a dungeon done (the point of gw2lfg, I’d say) isn’t quite an option when it is viewed that non-80s are a mess and nothing but trouble. When your team is 1 short, and you’ve exhausted map shouts and yet inviting an 80 will often result in insta-quit if they see no other 80s? Or sitting, waiting to run a less frequented dungeon with your group of 80s, you shout for anyone willing to join, someone responds but is kicked because they aren’t 80.

That the circular logic you feel infallible just makes the situation worse, all around, for those that want to level alts in dungeons and for those rushing to get to 80 to get into the dungeons to begin with as well as those inviting them. It’s laughable how you don’t see your own logic shooting you in the foot. Worried about ‘sub-80’ leechers? What about the 80s that rushed there and don’t know what they’re doing nor equipped with the gear required to overcome the level scaling because they’d be labeled leechers otherwise?

Once again, sub-80 charas do not need to be carried. If you truly believe that, then yes, you are an elitist.

That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Once again, sub-80 charas do not need to be carried. If you truly believe that, then yes, you are an elitist.

That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.

Wrong. It’s called being a realist.

And can you please explain if lvl 80s didn’t need to be carried WHY there aren’t any teams labeled, “sub lvl 80s!”

Removing a quote from a deleted post

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Once again, sub-80 charas do not need to be carried. If you truly believe that, then yes, you are an elitist.

That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.

Wrong. It’s called being a realist.

And can you please explain if lvl 80s didn’t need to be carried WHY there aren’t any teams labeled, “sub lvl 80s!”

Because it should not need to be stated. If the dungeon suggested level is lower than 80, then you would not need to outright say ‘sub-80s ok’. You just take it as ‘Hey, ANet says this level is ok. Let’s make a group!’.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Once again, sub-80 charas do not need to be carried. If you truly believe that, then yes, you are an elitist.

That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.

How did you become the arbiter of how LFG posts should be made?

Plato.6128:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Once again, sub-80 charas do not need to be carried. If you truly believe that, then yes, you are an elitist.

That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.

How did you become the arbiter of how LFG posts should be made?

I am speaking of what makes sense and what is more beneficial to the community. If you have restrictions on what you are seeking, you should post that. If you don’t have restrictions, you should not have to post that. Simple common sense.

On the contrary, I would say that what minimizes the total sum of what people are typing should be the norm and is what makes sense. If the majority want 80-only runs, then omission should be the norm.

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you have restrictions on what you are seeking, you should post that. If you don’t have restrictions, you should not have to post that. Simple common sense.

This makes sense. If a party wants 1 more, and prefers a guardian, they should post “LF1M Guard only.” If they only post, “LF1M” then kick the Engineer who joins, the Engineer player would have justification for anger when they kick him without (or with minimal) explanation.

I support people playing the way they want, but put the kitten “80’s only” in the LFG. Or is 8 keystrokes too much kitten work?

I feel I should chime in on this since I just completed 2 AC runs as a level 52 guardian. While it’s somewhat harder to do decent damage at a lower level, it’s quite easy to perform all manner of support. During Path 1 I never got downed (save for the scepter pieces, which I got through 2 runs of the room and a few well timed Stand Your Ground uses), pulled people back up when they got downed, and constantly used my shouts to give the party boons while we were fighting. Had no problems keeping up at all with anybody. Only problem was the damage output, which wasn’t that good.

Path 2, things went to hell fast due to some bad mistakes on everybody’s part, but I still managed to help out quite a bit. Even tanked the gravelings for that one part without dying until the very end, but that was due to a double scavenger pounce (which would have taken down anybody). Even when we were getting our kitten handed to us at the end due to the extra mobs showing up despite Detha not being rezzed (really hate that glitch), I was managing to hold my own and keep some constant DPS on some of the enemies (how little it was) to help take them out.

It’s more difficult at lower levels, but because of that you learn faster. That’s my take on it through regular experience, though.

Depends how your build looked. Were you traited/geared for damage? I actually leveled a new warrior through AC starting at 35. While I do more damage with him now at 80 (I’ve actually managed to solo up to the burrows on path 1 (no troll) but can’t get past the burrows) he rocked that place pretty hard leveling up thanks to the rare weapons/armor I crafted for him. I’d attribute his ability to solo the dungeon thus far to his versatility (such a condition conversion warhorn and regen banner) not just his damage as it allows for more mistakes.

In any case this attitude of many unskilled (so called fast runners) players wanted being carried by other 80s is causing trouble, to many players that like to play the game the way was designed.

Probably we should push for make the kicks because level an infraction and be worth of a ban in the game.

Nothing that is being said is going to change the narrow-mindedness of those that want 80 only groups and or specific classes. Of course it is not their fault and blame their actions on anything but themselves.

Sorry but bottom line is complaining here is not going to get you people groups. You can give any excuse or rationalization you want. Reality is reality. Get yourself a 80 to run the dungeons so you don’t have the problem, or continue to complain and gain nothing.

Lol if fast runners are bugging you, I just dont know what to say you must have more than a couple hours a night to run 6 dungeons"on weekdays"? Well i dont and i need it done quick so i can make the most of reset. Sorry my play style dosnt fit yours. I just dont see the point in wasteing time on something that can be done in 15-20mins. Quit stareing at the scenery move your butt and kill some stuff its that easy. Anyways post it “hey I will be exploring every crack and under every rock in this dungeon” on gw2lfg I wish you luck with that. Let us fast runners know thats your plan so we wont join your run.

Also changing the kick option is stupid its perfect how it is. If we get a oh you cant kick for 15min thing. I will drop the group and reform without you and finish the dungeon in the 15mins it took waiting for you.

Wobels.1679:

Lol if fast runners are bugging you, I just dont know what to say you must have more than a couple hours a night to run 6 dungeons"on weekdays"? Well i dont and i need it done quick so i can make the most of reset. Sorry my play style dosnt fit yours. I just dont see the point in wasteing time on something that can be done in 15-20mins. Quit stareing at the scenery move your butt and kill some stuff its that easy. Anyways post it “hey I will be exploring every crack and under every rock in this dungeon” on gw2lfg I wish you luck with that. Let us fast runners know thats your plan so we wont join your run.

Also changing the kick option is stupid its perfect how it is. If we get a oh you cant kick for 15min thing. I will drop the group and reform without you and finish the dungeon in the 15mins it took waiting for you.

Nicely said.

in the end, it has nothing to do with levels.

People in general like being better then the man/woman next to them. In real life, we can show off our “rank” simply through attitude, social networks, jobs, girlfriends, cars etc.

In a game, we got far less points of “measure”. In guildwars you would be looking at the gear, weapon and level. Because being human, means striving to be the “best”. To be the alpha dog in the pack. Harrassing and kicking lower levels to promote one-selves self esteem and or gain some sort of viral bragging rights is just one way to be the “best”.

In the end, don’t blame the developers, the admins, your level, or someone else’ level. Blame that asocial kitten sitting behind his/her monitor, giggling over your grief and misfortune.

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

Rarely does this make much of a difference. A bad group is a bad group reguardless of level.

Ruprect.7260:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

Rarely does this make much of a difference. A bad group is a bad group reguardless of level.

No one is comparing a good group of low lvls against a bad group of high lvls.

The same player with the same skills will do worse when he is low lvl than high lvl. That’s just a fact.