Guild Wars 2

Fatalyz.7168:

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

and why arent ppl complainin about the caustic nightmare skins bein locked behind 100 cm or gold fractal weapons?

There’s a difference between just skins, and a whole category of gear. Nevertheless, there have been complains about it. I assume that they’re not that big simply because most people seem to consider golden fractal skins to be exceptionally ugly.

To be fair, if you go by the forums and reddit, most seem to think that the medium and light armors are……are…..are……. Well not up to par, to be polite about it.

what he/she/it said ^

zealex.9410:

Fatalyz.7168:

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

and why arent ppl complainin about the caustic nightmare skins bein locked behind 100 cm or gold fractal weapons?

There’s a difference between just skins, and a whole category of gear. Nevertheless, there have been complains about it. I assume that they’re not that big simply because most people seem to consider golden fractal skins to be exceptionally ugly.

To be fair, if you go by the forums and reddit, most seem to think that the medium and light armors are……are…..are……. Well not up to par, to be polite about it.

what he/she/it said ^

And, as i said, i guess the majority of complains will disappear as soon as Anet introduces a second, non-raid set of legendary armor.
Which, at this moment, is, unfortunately, never.

the complains will also dissapear when ppl jsut do the raids. 2 full clears is enough for 1 legendary piece so…

Astralporing.1957:

Fatalyz.7168:

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

and why arent ppl complainin about the caustic nightmare skins bein locked behind 100 cm or gold fractal weapons?

There’s a difference between just skins, and a whole category of gear. Nevertheless, there have been complains about it. I assume that they’re not that big simply because most people seem to consider golden fractal skins to be exceptionally ugly.

To be fair, if you go by the forums and reddit, most seem to think that the medium and light armors are……are…..are……. Well not up to par, to be polite about it.

And i guess a lot of people would have been easily satisfied with a second, different set of legendary armor. Unfortunately, (as i suspected earlier) we now know that Anet’s not planning releasing any. So, this set is the only choice for legendary armor. Thus, i’ll be asking for alternate acquisition methods till i’m heard, first 4 wings of raids get nerfed (either directly, or indirectly due to power creep), or i’ll stop playing.

(and by the way, while i do agree – a lot – about the common opinion about the medium set, i do like heavy, and i think that light, or at least some parts of it, can have its uses)

I am pretty sure that people’s voices have been heard, they just may not acknowledge it. That sometimes happens when you do not wish to support a request. You keep pushing what you do want to support, and hopefully bring on people for what you want to support, before those you no longer wish to support, leave.

For what it’s worth, I do hope that they state what their intention is. At least it will give people closure, if what they want isn’t coming, but I don’t personally know of many businesses that will do that.

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

Fatalyz.7168:

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

and why arent ppl complainin about the caustic nightmare skins bein locked behind 100 cm or gold fractal weapons?

There’s a difference between just skins, and a whole category of gear. Nevertheless, there have been complains about it. I assume that they’re not that big simply because most people seem to consider golden fractal skins to be exceptionally ugly.

To be fair, if you go by the forums and reddit, most seem to think that the medium and light armors are……are…..are……. Well not up to par, to be polite about it.

what he/she/it said ^

And, as i said, i guess the majority of complains will disappear as soon as Anet introduces a second, non-raid set of legendary armor.
Which, at this moment, is, unfortunately, never.

I think something we can both agree on…. If there was going to be a raid legendary armor set, there should have been at least one more obtainable via other content in the game (WvW being a good candidate, but there could be others).

Fatalyz.7168:

I think something we can both agree on…. If there was going to be a raid legendary armor set, there should have been at least one more obtainable via other content in the game (WvW being a good candidate, but there could be others).

While I do support the idea I also recognise how difficult it can be to ensure the same effort is required by the average player to obtain it, especially in WvW.

If you tie it to server wins it can take anything from a few months to years to get as well as promoting the bandwagon mentality which is already a huge issue for server linking.

Tie it to achievements like cap X amount of objectives and it promotes karma training and in no way comes close to having to learn raid mechanics.

Tie it to kills and you screw over small groups and roamers as well as promoting people to blob up and again karma train.

The nearest imo you could get is tie it to WvW rank but XP boosters now affect it and karma training is one of the most effective ways to rank up. Additionally there’s a large amount of the playerbase that would be kittened off at having to earn another arbitrary number of ranks when they’re on 3k+.

That’s without mentioning if anyone found a loophole like with the ultimate dominater farm in OS.

Like I say I like the idea and would love to see it but I can’t see a way without kittening off a ton of players or making it adversely affect the game mode by promoting either karma training, blobbing or server stacking.

apharma.3741:

Fatalyz.7168:

I think something we can both agree on…. If there was going to be a raid legendary armor set, there should have been at least one more obtainable via other content in the game (WvW being a good candidate, but there could be others).

While I do support the idea I also recognise how difficult it can be to ensure the same effort is required by the average player to obtain it, especially in WvW.

If you tie it to server wins it can take anything from a few months to years to get as well as promoting the bandwagon mentality which is already a huge issue for server linking.

Tie it to achievements like cap X amount of objectives and it promotes karma training and in no way comes close to having to learn raid mechanics.

Tie it to kills and you screw over small groups and roamers as well as promoting people to blob up and again karma train.

The nearest imo you could get is tie it to WvW rank but XP boosters now affect it and karma training is one of the most effective ways to rank up. Additionally there’s a large amount of the playerbase that would be kittened off at having to earn another arbitrary number of ranks when they’re on 3k+.

That’s without mentioning if anyone found a loophole like with the ultimate dominater farm in OS.

Like I say I like the idea and would love to see it but I can’t see a way without kittening off a ton of players or making it adversely affect the game mode by promoting either karma training, blobbing or server stacking.

I don’t know how it would work, WvW and it’s rewards are a mess. I was honestly trying to throw WvW a bone (they need something ).

In principle, my point was just that they should have another set available via other means.

Fatalyz.7168:

apharma.3741:

Fatalyz.7168:

I think something we can both agree on…. If there was going to be a raid legendary armor set, there should have been at least one more obtainable via other content in the game (WvW being a good candidate, but there could be others).

While I do support the idea I also recognise how difficult it can be to ensure the same effort is required by the average player to obtain it, especially in WvW.

If you tie it to server wins it can take anything from a few months to years to get as well as promoting the bandwagon mentality which is already a huge issue for server linking.

Tie it to achievements like cap X amount of objectives and it promotes karma training and in no way comes close to having to learn raid mechanics.

Tie it to kills and you screw over small groups and roamers as well as promoting people to blob up and again karma train.

The nearest imo you could get is tie it to WvW rank but XP boosters now affect it and karma training is one of the most effective ways to rank up. Additionally there’s a large amount of the playerbase that would be kittened off at having to earn another arbitrary number of ranks when they’re on 3k+.

That’s without mentioning if anyone found a loophole like with the ultimate dominater farm in OS.

Like I say I like the idea and would love to see it but I can’t see a way without kittening off a ton of players or making it adversely affect the game mode by promoting either karma training, blobbing or server stacking.

I don’t know how it would work, WvW and it’s rewards are a mess. I was honestly trying to throw WvW a bone (they need something ).

In principle, my point was just that they should have another set available via other means.

Yeah I know which is the sad part, I don’t honestly think it would be feasible to do and I say this as someone who has done a lot of WvW and enjoys it. No matter which way you cut it, a lot of people will get kittened off.

Feanor.2358:

It can’t be a net negative. Nobody’s forcing your own choices. If you choose to play something you dislike to obtain something you like, it means you like the objective more than you dislike the means.

Again, it is a net negative experience. Option A is that I complete the content required, and receive the item I wanted. In this case, I’m happy from having the item, but frustrated by having to have spent hours of my life doing an activity that I don’t enjoy. Option B is that I don’t do the activity required, and don’t get the item. In this case, I don’t have the frustration of having done the content, but I do have the regrets of not having that item that I wanted. In neither scenario can I be truly happy with the outcome. In neither scenario will I be happier than if the reward had simply never existed in the first place.

That’s what I’m looking for, scenarios that are PURE upside for all involved, in which players can earn all the rewards that interest them, while spending minimal if any time dealing with aspects of the game that they know full well they will never enjoy.

I have spent dozens, perhaps hundreds of hours in PvP by this point. I knew for a fact within a few hours that I would never enjoy playing PvP, yet the game keeps giving me reasons to go back in anyway. I would be much happier with the game if they would stop giving me reasons to go back in, and hardcore PvP players should be happy for me that I don’t have to go back in.

Except not. Making an item universally accessible makes it meaningless.

Not remotely true. We’re talking about skins here, and skins have intrinsic value. If they handed every player in the game Legendary Armor as a login reward tomorrow, plenty of people would still equip parts of it. Why would they do this if it had “no value?”

I don’t argue that it wouldn’t reduce the value somewhat, it would no longer carry the value of exclusivity, but my argument is that it does not need that value, and should not have that value in the first place. Items that are valued in exclusivity should be valuable ONLY for their exclusivity. Items that have intrinsic value, that people can want without regard for their exclusivity, should not be exclusive.

Better make it a gemstore item and sell it.

I would prefer that to locking it behind only raids. At least on the gem store it would be equally available to everyone, and each purchase would directly support the game. I would honestly love to buy a lot more armor off the gem store, but lately all they put up is Outfits, and I will NEVER buy an Outfit. If they’d put the Legendary armor on the gem store for like $20 a set, I’d have picked up two of them.

Fatalyz.7168:

Proof that it is a better way? It’s a different way, sure, but it’s not inherently better.

You also don’t know if more people will be happy. You know that it will make you happy and some other people.

I don’t have the data to know with absolute certainty, but I believe it’s the most likely outcome, since it would mean that every player in the game would have more opportunity to get whichever rewards interest them, and have less reason to play game modes that they know they do not enjoy, and I can’t imagine that not leading to higher overall happiness. It’s like asking “do you think most people would prefer to make more money doing their favorite career?” I really doubt that anyone would argue against that.

Feanor.2358:

Following this logic, you should make every item in the game freely accessible. Because for each aspect of the game you can surely find a player who dislikes it. Now, this would be a net negative. Because you’d be robbing players at large of the sense of reward and achievement.

That’s called a “reductio ad absurdum” argument. Any argument, taken to extremes, breaks down. Nobody is suggesting taking this to extremes. for someone to be a “player in good standing” in GW2, it is expected that they enjoy at least one of the major types of content that the game launched with (perhaps more, but at least one). It is expected that they want to continue playing that type of content.

The argument being put forth is not that players should be able to get any reward from any silly thing they feel like doing, that is an unreasonable burden on the devs and impossible to balance. Rather, the argument is that any activity that the devs see fit to be a supported gameplay element, worthy of some decent rewards, those rewards should be fungible with any other reward in the game, there should be some sort of exchange rate, such that effort spent in activity A can earn the same rewards provided by equivalent effort in activity B.

It’s not an attempt to boost my ego. Perhaps you can best think of it as a trophy. A reminder for a long and hard effort.

And I have no problem with you receiving a trophy for your efforts. What I do mind is you receiving an exclusive weapon or armor skin, because unlike a trophy, that skin has a value that has nothing to do with its representative nature.

NikeEU.7690:

I dont enjoy interval training or track workouts but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be able to run a 16 minute 5k right?

Why not? Of course the real world has rules of physics and biology that (so far) we cannot change, but if you were living in a game, and a developer had the ability to allow you to run a 16 minute 5K without that training, then why shouldn’t they? This is why real world comparisons often make zero sense in game design discussions, most of the rules do not apply the same from one to the next.

apharma.3741:

The armour skin is nothing but a prestige item, it is no different to a title,

That may be your opinion, but I clearly do not share it. The skins have value in their appearance alone, they have that value whether only one person has it or everyone has it. That is the difference between armors and titles. If you believe that armor skins are worth nothing more than prestige, that’s fine, so long as you don’t try to use that as justification for making it harder for me to get access to the skins I want.

Except you do want to devalue peoples efforts, you essentially want to remove the hard work others put into it trying a new game mode, learning new techniques and classes to benefit a group of 10 people working together.

No, nothing can take any of that away from them. The value of their efforts is that they have improved, and are better today than they were when they started. That remains true regardless of what happens with Legendary armor. Any value they derrived from having exclusive access to Legendary armor skins, that is value they were never entitled to in the first place.

Correct me if I’m wrong but GW1 had many skins locked behind difficult content, why is GW1 getting a free pass but not GW2?

Because I never played GW1 and never had any interest to. GW2 is the game that interested me, and the only ANet game I’ve played. GW1 is completely irrelevant to me as a player, just as someone might love FFVII but have no interest in FFV.

zealex.9410:

and why arent ppl complainin about the caustic nightmare skins bein locked behind 100 cm or gold fractal weapons?

I can’t speak for anyone other than myself, but the reason I’m not complaining about it is because the look of those skins (and Ad Infinitum, for that matter) do not particularly appeal to me. But if any other player did particularly like those skins, and wanted them available through other methods, I would not be trying to shut them up, I would support their efforts. My stance is that ALL items should be available through multiple means, but I only directly speak up about items that I am personally interested in, because I have limited time and effort to spare.

boolah.1325:

Let’s be serious now.. Raids have been out for more than a year. The recipes have been known for as long. People are complaining now that they can’t have this nice new toy because they didn’t bother to take it serious enough get the LI or provisioner tokens?? meh

I’ve been complaining about this issue on and off since before raids came out. At every step I was told to “wait until the raids actually come out,” “wait until the method of earning the armor is actually announced,” “wait until they actually release the armor,” etc. My stance has remained consistent throughout the process, that the skins should be available to players who don’t enjoy raiding.

First, there are a bunch of these threads that should really be bundled together. Here is my view on the topic.

I still think where they went wrong isn’t due to the fact that they don’t have legendary armor planned for the other game modes, but that they didn’t require all 3 game modes to make the legendary armor. I’m a firm believer that if you want the one set of legendary armor in gw2, then you should play everything in gw2. For example, instead of the rather boring provisioner tokens, they could have had a gift that required pvp and WvW. This gift could have been created in the mystic forge by combing a Gift of Battle, a Gift of Skirmishing, and two more gifts not in the game (kinda like the Gift of the Competitor) that require you to complete achievements in both PvP and WvW respectively. Legendary armor should have required play in All game modes. If that was the case, then this argument wouldn’t be happening. . . .well, it would, but people wouldn’t have as much reason to complain.

Xstein.2187:

I’m a firm believer that if you want the one set of legendary armor in gw2, then you should play everything in gw2.

I disagree strongly. Wooden Potatoes made a good comment about this in one of his HoT review videos (the one on WvW, I think), but the devs seem to believe that most players enjoy doing a little of everything, while in reality, most players gravitate towards exactly one playstyle, and spend all or most of their time there. There is no benefit to encouraging players to spend significant time in all three modes unless they ENJOY all three modes.

They can make playing all three modes the easiest way, the shortest way, so that players inclined to do that have a nudge in that direction, but players who definitely don’t want to do that, definitely shouldn’t have to, and should have alternatives available.

Ohoni.6057:

Xstein.2187:

I’m a firm believer that if you want the one set of legendary armor in gw2, then you should play everything in gw2.

I disagree strongly. Wooden Potatoes made a good comment about this in one of his HoT review videos (the one on WvW, I think), but the devs seem to believe that most players enjoy doing a little of everything, while in reality, most players gravitate towards exactly one playstyle, and spend all or most of their time there. There is no benefit to encouraging players to spend significant time in all three modes unless they ENJOY all three modes.

They can make playing all three modes the easiest way, the shortest way, so that players inclined to do that have a nudge in that direction, but players who definitely don’t want to do that, definitely shouldn’t have to, and should have alternatives available.

Yes, I have seen that video as well. However, this wasn’t in reference to legendary armor. It was stated to show there was a disconnection with what Moe or the devs believed and what was really happening at the time the devs were making HoT. (I’m not really stating this for you, but more for other people who read this who haven’t watched the video).

So, just under curiosity, if you only had the resources to create one set of legendary armor (It took them over a year and a half to come out with the first set) that was suppose to represent one of the pinnacle achievements in your game based on difficulty, time, and overall achievement level to aquire, and you knew this or knew due to the difficulties involved with the project that you could only handle one set, how would you go about it?

If you used all 3 game modes, than everyone going after the armor would at least have one or more aspects of the collection they enjoyed. PvE people that didn’t like WvW would have to go through some aspects they didn’t like, just like WvW players that don’t like PvE. At least this would be better than it is now (where a WvW player who doesn’t like PvE has to do all collections in an environment that they don’t like). The situation is also similar now. There are many people who raid who don’t like open world content. There are people who like open world content who don’t like raids. However, the legendary armor requires both.

This is also a bit beyond the point. However, my personal opinion is that the pinnacle set of armor in terms of achievement should require achievement in all areas of the game.

Xstein.2187:

If you used all 3 game modes, than everyone going after the armor would at least have one or more aspects of the collection they enjoyed.

But they would also be likely to have to play a significant amount of 2/3 modes that they don’t enjoy. Mutually assured annoyance is not the ideal solution, having everyone a path that they 100% enjoy is the superior solution.

The way I would do it is to

1. Have many ingredients necessary for the final build of the object.

2. ONE of these ingredients could only be found in each of the three modes, OR in one specific mode (like raids) that they want to highlight, but would be buried very shallowly, something that only takes a few hours to acquire. It would give incentive to TRY that mode, but would not force players to spend more than a reasonable amount of time at it if they don’t enjoy it.

3. The remaining components would be available in ALL modes. If you like to raid, there are ways to find them in raids. If you like PvE open world, you can find the bits in the open world. If you like to PvP, there are ways to earn them in PvP. If you like WvW, there are ways to earn them in WvW. You only need to get one of each, so pick the method that works best for you.

Perfectly balancing these isn’t really feasible, but they can skew the balance deliberately, so that at least a few of them are clearly easier to get in a given mode than in the others, and other items are clearly easier in the other modes, so that a player who wants to be 100% efficient would end up doing all the modes for a bit, but a player that insists on only doing one mode would still be able to do that for all but a tiny portion of the total acquisition time.

Ohoni.6057:

But they would also be likely to have to play a significant amount of 2/3 modes that they don’t enjoy. Mutually assured annoyance is not the ideal solution, having everyone a path that they 100% enjoy is the superior solution.

The way I would do it is to

1. Have many ingredients necessary for the final build of the object.

2. ONE of these ingredients could only be found in each of the three modes, OR in one specific mode (like raids) that they want to highlight, but would be buried very shallowly, something that only takes a few hours to acquire. It would give incentive to TRY that mode, but would not force players to spend more than a reasonable amount of time at it if they don’t enjoy it.

3. The remaining components would be available in ALL modes. If you like to raid, there are ways to find them in raids. If you like PvE open world, you can find the bits in the open world. If you like to PvP, there are ways to earn them in PvP. If you like WvW, there are ways to earn them in WvW. You only need to get one of each, so pick the method that works best for you.

Perfectly balancing these isn’t really feasible, but they can skew the balance deliberately, so that at least a few of them are clearly easier to get in a given mode than in the others, and other items are clearly easier in the other modes, so that a player who wants to be 100% efficient would end up doing all the modes for a bit, but a player that insists on only doing one mode would still be able to do that for all but a tiny portion of the total acquisition time.

You see, I believe this would be good in theory, but in reality it would break apart if you are not very carefull. For example, referencing apharma’s post above, how are you suppose to make sure the WvW portion contains a strong enough “comparison” to raids? I suppose leaderboards were the best option I’ve seen for PvP, but WvW is even more difficult. In the end, I could just see this leading to a lot of complaining because one mode is a lot easier or faster (depending on that perticular person’s preference) than another if the modes aren’t Very closely balanced. IMO, the devs could install a “replacement” option for much of the open world portion of the legendary armor to give players the option of replacing it with a WvW or PvP reward track option instead (IMO they are similar enough). However, pretty much nothing in the other game types really even remotely compares to insights.

Addition: Just to be a little more clear, my suggestion that the armor should have required all 3 types wasn’t really to “encourage people to play more types”. It was more an example how I would have done it because it would have helped with the problem while at the same time requiring achievement in all areas. I personally don’t believe legendary armor is about encouraging people to play raids (or other areas of the game if it contained all 3). Its about mastering the game, putting dedication into it, and getting rewarded for that effort. However, I also realize that this obviously can’t be a current solution to the problem as whats done is done. However, they still potentially could do the idea of replacing parts of the items necessary for the armor for alternative recipes. However, once again, I just wouldn’t touch the insights.

Xstein.2187:

You see, I believe this would be good in theory, but in reality it would break apart if you are not very carefull. For example, referencing apharma’s post above, how are you suppose to make sure the WvW portion contains a strong enough “comparison” to raids?

I’m no expert on WvW or on what is the best balance point for this. If we posit that it could EVER be fair for WvW to get ANY version of Legendary armor, then it should be eligible for the existing set too. I would say that in cases where they wanted to, for example, make raids the “best” way to get a given piece, then they would determine the average time it would take a player to earn it in raids, and then figure out a WvW goal that would take twice as much time and effort. It would probably be a good idea to use this to incentivize roles that people otherwise don’t tend to do but that are considered healthy for the mode (ie not zerg swarm).

Of course it may be possible that WvW is just not a mode suited to distributing rewards, in which case the whole discussion is moot and they would need to be left off the list, but I think there’s likely a compromise in there someplace.

And again, that’s why I think it’s best that instead of trying to perfectly balance each acquisition method, you deliberately unbalance them, so that one method definitely IS the better one for a given ingredient, but others are definitely easier for others, so collecting them all they mostly balance out. It’s much easier to wildly overshoot than to nitpick over minute imbalances. It’s sort of like a rock/paper/scissors balance in certain games, even if the relative strengths of each type can vary, you’d need a pretty strong rock to beat a decent paper, which gives paper a value even if it’s in some ways weaker than the rock.

However, pretty much nothing in the other game types really even remotely compares to insights.

Insights are just a collectible currency. You’d just collect them through some other means. I’ll grant that there are few other aspects of the game that would be as worth one Insight per unit of time as beating a raid boss, but they could perhaps add Insight fragments or something, and combining 10, 100, or 250 of them could result in a single Insight, and they would be given out by various tasks in varying numbers. There are plenty of things in the game that are at least half as worthy as beating the weaker raid bosses.

Addition: Just to be a little more clear, my suggestion that the armor should have required all 3 types wasn’t really to “encourage people to play more types”. It was more an example how I would have done it because it would have helped with the problem while at the same time requiring achievement in all areas.

Again though, I don’t see any value in “achievement in all the areas.” I mean if you love all three, that’s great, go for it, but if you just really love one type, then you’re as valuable to the game as that other person, and should not be punished for that by having to spend a lot of time in areas that you don’t like.

Ohoni.6057:

However, pretty much nothing in the other game types really even remotely compares to insights.

Insights are just a collectible currency. You’d just collect them through some other means. I’ll grant that there are few other aspects of the game that would be as worth one Insight per unit of time as beating a raid boss, but they could perhaps add Insight fragments or something, and combining 10, 100, or 250 of them could result in a single Insight, and they would be given out by various tasks in varying numbers. There are plenty of things in the game that are at least half as worthy as beating the weaker raid bosses.

Just to try to be a little more clear, in that statement I didn’t really mean “nothing . . even remotely compares” in terms of difficulty. I meant it just in terms of comparison. Like no other fruit even remotely compares to a pumpkin. You can try to give me fruit to make up for a pumpkin I got for halloween. You can say x amount of apples should make up for a pumpkin, but in the end a pumpkin is a pumpkin. The problem is many people believe time doesn’t always make things fair or equal. A person shouldn’t get paid the same amount per hour if they operate a toll booth vs say if they are a professional football player. There are also rewards that people think shouldn’t be tied with time. For example, many believe that even if the toll booth operator works for 20 years, they shouldn’t get a Super Bowl ring that the professional football player earned in 1 year. I know many WvW players think that if they run around with a zerg for enough time or even complete some sort of new difficult WvW achievements, than it will be a fair comparison. However, many other people don’t. This is why I think a insight replacement would break down into fighting and complaining. This “fairness” problem would not occur if the legendary armor required all 3 game types because everyone would still have to do the exact same things for the reward. However, yes it would run into the problem of potentially “forcing” people into a game type they don’t like.

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

Fatalyz.7168:

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

and why arent ppl complainin about the caustic nightmare skins bein locked behind 100 cm or gold fractal weapons?

There’s a difference between just skins, and a whole category of gear. Nevertheless, there have been complains about it. I assume that they’re not that big simply because most people seem to consider golden fractal skins to be exceptionally ugly.

To be fair, if you go by the forums and reddit, most seem to think that the medium and light armors are……are…..are……. Well not up to par, to be polite about it.

what he/she/it said ^

And, as i said, i guess the majority of complains will disappear as soon as Anet introduces a second, non-raid set of legendary armor.
Which, at this moment, is, unfortunately, never.

The only thing they will ever consider is dropping the envoy legendaries in expac 3 open world for marketing purposes. Which I dont mind as long as raids still have cool exclusive rewards that I can show off.

Best thing would be if they just added it to wvw/pvp since pve kinda already has a legendary set.

I take great pleasure in the fact that most players can’t get legendary armor.

Xstein.2187:

. You can try to give me fruit to make up for a pumpkin I got for halloween. You can say x amount of apples should make up for a pumpkin, but in the end a pumpkin is a pumpkin.

Yeah, but if you’re making a pumpkin pie, and can’t use pumpkin for whatever reason, you can use sweet potato, or butternut squash. Both are smaller, so you’d need more of them for the same recipe, but they work out.

A person shouldn’t get paid the same amount per hour if they operate a toll booth vs say if they are a professional football player.

No, but if a tollbooth operator makes $60 a day, and a football player makes $60 every ten minutes, then if those players go to the store, the tollbooth operator’s $60 is just as good as the player’s.

For example, many believe that even if the toll booth operator works for 20 years, they shouldn’t get a Super Bowl ring that the professional football player earned in 1 year.

Yes, but then we get back into what should and should not constitute a “trophy.” I have no problem with raiders having exclusive access to trophies celebrating their victories, items with little to no intrinsic value, such as titles, nametag flair, celebratory bundles, minor hall decorations, etc. I firmly do not believe that items of intrinsic value, such as armor and weapon skins, should be confused for “trophies,” because players can reasonably desire these things without having any attachment to the “worth” they supposedly signify.

I’m aware that there are people who would insist that raids are just soooooo much better and more important than anything else that it’s impossible to have any worth in your life if you aren’t raiding, but I reject that entire premise and ignore anyone espousing it as hopelessly deluded.

Raids are content, just like anything else. Most raids are more difficult than most other content, but not by magnitudes. I don’t begrudge raids having a reasonable level of reward, but nor do I believe for a second that raids are owed “impossible to compare” rewards relative to the rest of the game.

This is why I think a insight replacement would break down into fighting and complaining.

Perhaps, but I have little sympathy for the sort of people that would begrudge their happiness, and at the end of the day, if two people have something rather than just one, I will be much happier for the guy who got something that he wanted, than for the guy who already had it and is upset that the other guy has it too.

You kinda missed the point of my analogies. The pumpkin example was just to show that some things don’t have good comparisons. We could replace the pumpkin with something else like a refrigerator and say no other appliance is like a refrigerator. You could say a freezer keeps stuff cold as well. However, that not the point. Even with this very small similarity, they are still completely different. The main point is just that some things have qualities that make them hard or nearly impossible to compare to other things to the point that they shouldn’t be compared to the point of equality.

And the analogy about money made per hour was about how people performing different work for the same amount of time is not necessarily equal.
Of course you could make the same amount of money if you worked longer. However, this is exactly why I made the super bowl ring analogy. Because there are some things that don’t work this way. Time does not alway make things equal. Even if you don’t believer this, I can assure you many others do.

Once again, I don’t and never meant insights are impossible to compare because of their difficulty. They are difficult to compare because they are so much different. “Raid difficulty” is soooo much different than difficulty in other parts of the game. For example, getting high on the leaderboards in pvp is extremely, extremely difficult. There is no doubt about this. However, that STILL doesn’t make getting on the leaderboards in pvp equal to insights. From your last post, I get the vibe that you think I think raids are much more difficult than all other areas of the game and that I think no other areas of the game should get legendary armor. However, I can assure you that this is not the case at all. After all, my original post was not about how other areas of the game shouldn’t have had legendary armor. It was about how they should have put everyone on an equal footing so that there is no “fairness” issues while at the same time trying to make it so all people enjoy as much of the process as possible (It would be impossible for everyone to enjoy all of it, but at least everyone would have enjoy a portion of it). Plain out replacing insights with something else does not lead to complete fairness and sympathy has nothing to do with this fact. Your last paragraph didn’t make any sense at all compared to the quote because being jealous of what another guy has is completely different than fairness. I also now strongly feel that you are starting to use the tactic of emotional appeal, which is a logical fallacy. When I say this, I don’t mean emotions and empathy isn’t important. I’m just saying that you shouldn’t try to get someone to agree with you because of how they emotionally feel because it doesn’t change the logic or facts of the situation.

Ohoni.6057:

That may be your opinion, but I clearly do not share it. The skins have value in their appearance alone, they have that value whether only one person has it or everyone has it. That is the difference between armors and titles. If you believe that armor skins are worth nothing more than prestige, that’s fine, so long as you don’t try to use that as justification for making it harder for me to get access to the skins I want.

No get off your lazy backside and earn them, there’s a lot of titles and prestigious items in the game you have to work hard to earn and that is why people go for them. The want to advertise they have done something difficult and got the reward to show it.

Ohoni.6057:

No, nothing can take any of that away from them. The value of their efforts is that they have improved, and are better today than they were when they started. That remains true regardless of what happens with Legendary armor. Any value they derrived from having exclusive access to Legendary armor skins, that is value they were never entitled to in the first place.

Yes it does devalue their work if everyone can get it for barely any effort which is what you are wanting, a view not shared by a lot of players judging by this thread and thankfully not shared by the devs.

If everyone was suddenly handed out noble peace prizes for doing a years worth of charity work the value of that has plummeted dramatically. The legendary armour is that ultimate prestige item and likewise should be earned the way the devs want you to earn it, by beating their hardest challenge in the game.

Ohoni.6057:

Because I never played GW1 and never had any interest to. GW2 is the game that interested me, and the only ANet game I’ve played. GW1 is completely irrelevant to me as a player, just as someone might love FFVII but have no interest in FFV.

Putting aside that I have a hard time believing you are over 20 with your warped views, what game were you referring to that you had been playing for 15 years that simply gave you anything you wanted any way you wanted without ever having to leave your comfort zone? What was the point in bringing it up if you weren’t going to mention what it was or anything about it especially as it’s not in the Guild Wars franchise or developed by ANet?

boolah.1325:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

boolah.1325:

no compromises about li should be given.. 25 per piece is fair..

Should have been more imho.. this wasn’t suppose to be easy to get. 300 for a single set would have been best I think.

If we only speak about what “should”, many, including myself, will tell you that this tier of armor should not be exclusive to that sole game mode. That it is, is not fair one bit.

People are always going to be unhappy..

You “can” play other game modes. If you choose not to, that’s your choice.. You must think about what game mode has a bigger population also. I’m sure they had this in mind with legendary weapons also. I do feel for WvW players who don’t even have a back piece. (if it was available to obtain in WvW, would you really want your map ques full of people that just wanted the armor/backpiece/weapons reward tracks?? So many complain about the gift of battle already which is just for a single piece, let alone 6)

This isn’t suppose to be a simple task to complete and it also has 6 pieces compared to a single piece (weapon) What would you have ANET do? Make it so everyone can obtain the armor after a month?

Let’s be serious now.. Raids have been out for more than a year. The recipes have been known for as long. People are complaining now that they can’t have this nice new toy because they didn’t bother to take it serious enough get the LI or provisioner tokens?? meh

Sure, GW is suppose to be less of a grind but it’s also not supposed to be pay to win! I feel for other game modes but people would complain regardless.

Most people who are complaining now, complained when the recipe came to be known. 150 LI was a silly number back then for people who didn’t feel like repeating something so time consuming that they didn’t particularly enjoy. It is just that the topic comes back on the table with the release of the armor. Do not let that fool you, there is nothing new here.

Beside, if it is true I would despise wvw being flooded with people only caring about the armor, there would be no wvw flooding if LI could be obtained though all game modes up to a set maximum per week. Maybe, say, 2 LI per week could be obtained outside of raids through various significant investment from players.

You would still have to get the precursor the way you get it now, but the LI could be time gated elsewhere. This could leave the possibility to get LI doing what you enjoy in the game instead of what we have to do to access this tier of armor atm.

I would greatly prefer for all game mode to have it’s armor, but since they clearly said NOPE, a compromise is the next best thing to ask for. It is not unreasonable I think.

Xstein.2187:

So, just under curiosity, if you only had the resources to create one set of legendary armor (It took them over a year and a half to come out with the first set) that was suppose to represent one of the pinnacle achievements in your game based on difficulty, time, and overall achievement level to aquire, and you knew this or knew due to the difficulties involved with the project that you could only handle one set, how would you go about it?

As you said, i’d use more than one game mode, but i’d not require heavy investment in any. So, gift of battle, some LI’s (but no requirement of killing all the bosses), gift of ascension (and some fractal motes perhaps, not the 100 cm one though), and something from spvp (not necessarily gift of skirmishing, perhaps the mist stone). The main collection would be open world though (with maybe some elements from other modes, but not very hard ones).

So, achievements in all game modes, but not mastery of all game modes. That one would have been guaranteed to kitten every player off.

DutchRiders.2871:

I take great pleasure in the fact that most players can’t get legendary armor.

Taking pleasure from the misery of others is not a good trait in my eyes, and is definitely the behaviour this game shouldn’t promote, as it is something that can only poison game community.

Astralporing.1957:

Taking pleasure from the misery of others is not a good trait in my eyes, and is definitely the behaviour this game shouldn’t promote, as it is something that can only poison game community.

Pretty much this. After reading this thread I have a strong feeling that some players should have never leave WoW and coming here instead.

Ohoni.6057:

Fatalyz.7168:

Proof that it is a better way? It’s a different way, sure, but it’s not inherently better.

You also don’t know if more people will be happy. You know that it will make you happy and some other people.

I don’t have the data to know with absolute certainty, but I believe it’s the most likely outcome, since it would mean that every player in the game would have more opportunity to get whichever rewards interest them, and have less reason to play game modes that they know they do not enjoy, and I can’t imagine that not leading to higher overall happiness. It’s like asking “do you think most people would prefer to make more money doing their favorite career?” I really doubt that anyone would argue against that.

Except that you tell the people that want skins as rewards for completing specific content, that what they want doesn’t matter, because it doesn’t make you happy.

The question is actually, “Do you prefer skins as a reward for completing specific content or something else?” Where I believe you will find more people in favor of having skins as rewards available for specific content, than those who don’t. Heck, just look through this thread, you don’t even have majority support in this thread for making skins available through other modes. Instead, even those arguing or the armor to be available elsewhere, don’t care for the skin or don’t want to take the skin away from raiders.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s what I’m looking for, scenarios that are PURE upside for all involved, in which players can earn all the rewards that interest them, while spending minimal if any time dealing with aspects of the game that they know full well they will never enjoy.

Where is the upside for people who want skins as rewards for completing specific content? And how does what you want, outweigh what they want?

Ohoni.6057:

apharma.3741:

The armour skin is nothing but a prestige item, it is no different to a title,

That may be your opinion, but I clearly do not share it. The skins have value in their appearance alone, they have that value whether only one person has it or everyone has it. That is the difference between armors and titles. If you believe that armor skins are worth nothing more than prestige, that’s fine, so long as you don’t try to use that as justification for making it harder for me to get access to the skins I want.

That’s not just his opinion, it’s one Anet shares as well (specifically that armor and weapon skins are prestige items in this game).

If you believe that armor skins and weapon skins are not prestige items, that is fine, but don’t use it as justification to make it easier to get skins that you want (that argument works both ways).

Ohoni.6057:

Except you do want to devalue peoples efforts, you essentially want to remove the hard work others put into it trying a new game mode, learning new techniques and classes to benefit a group of 10 people working together.

No, nothing can take any of that away from them. The value of their efforts is that they have improved, and are better today than they were when they started. That remains true regardless of what happens with Legendary armor. Any value they derrived from having exclusive access to Legendary armor skins, that is value they were never entitled to in the first place.

And any value that you have from having what ever skin you want in the game, is not something that you were ever entitled to.

Astralporing.1957:

DutchRiders.2871:

I take great pleasure in the fact that most players can’t get legendary armor.

Taking pleasure from the misery of others is not a good trait in my eyes, and is definitely the behaviour this game shouldn’t promote, as it is something that can only poison game community.

You are assuming that he is taking pleasure from the misery of others.

Why can’t his pleasure be that it is because it is an exclusive reward for a game mode that is the most challenging group content in the game, and that most people are either unwilling or unable to complete the content? There is pleasure in being able to achieve something that others are not, but that does not mean that it is malicious.

If people want the PvP backpack, they have to play PvP. If people want the FOTM backpack they have to play FOTM.. You want the legenday armor? Play the raids.. it’s that bloody simple.

I’m sure ANET would have made legendary armor for all gamemodes but the fact is that it’s obviously not that simple to do otherwise they would have done so.

Please don’t kitten about LI because you don’t have them. I’m sure the PvPers and WvWers hated the fact that if they wanted a legendary weapon, they had to do world completion to get it. Now you need LI and if it’s too hard to get 150 then you simply don’t deserve the armor!

boolah.1325:

If people want the PvP backpack, they have to play PvP. If people want the FOTM backpack they have to play FOTM.. You want the legenday armor? Play the raids.. it’s that bloody simple.

I’m sure ANET would have made legendary armor for all gamemodes but the fact is that it’s obviously not that simple to do otherwise they would have done so.

Please don’t kitten about LI because you don’t have them. I’m sure the PvPers and WvWers hated the fact that if they wanted a legendary weapon, they had to do world completion to get it. Now you need LI and if it’s too hard to get 150 then you simply don’t deserve the armor!

This argument has already been trashed several times already, yet here it pops again…

Like it has been told countless time, the comparison is simply not valid nor reasonable in the context. This is the only option in existence to get that tier of armor and they wont produce anymore.

Every other legendary tier gear in the game offers at least one alternative game mode to get it. Raiders were elected over other part of the game to get this because? I mean, I’m happy for you but…

Also, what was asked out of other game mode that players might not have enjoyed in the past was nothing like what is asked now with LI. There was nothing conditional about getting map completion. You could play it outright (no waiting, no endless prep, no practice) and progress with certainty toward your goal at your own pace. Yes, it was boring after the first time, but to try and compare that to LI is just ridiculous/desperate.

Astralporing.1957:

Xstein.2187:

So, just under curiosity, if you only had the resources to create one set of legendary armor (It took them over a year and a half to come out with the first set) that was suppose to represent one of the pinnacle achievements in your game based on difficulty, time, and overall achievement level to aquire, and you knew this or knew due to the difficulties involved with the project that you could only handle one set, how would you go about it?

As you said, i’d use more than one game mode, but i’d not require heavy investment in any. So, gift of battle, some LI’s (but no requirement of killing all the bosses), gift of ascension (and some fractal motes perhaps, not the 100 cm one though), and something from spvp (not necessarily gift of skirmishing, perhaps the mist stone). The main collection would be open world though (with maybe some elements from other modes, but not very hard ones).

So, achievements in all game modes, but not mastery of all game modes. That one would have been guaranteed to kitten every player off.

DutchRiders.2871:

I take great pleasure in the fact that most players can’t get legendary armor.

Taking pleasure from the misery of others is not a good trait in my eyes, and is definitely the behaviour this game shouldn’t promote, as it is something that can only poison game community.

If not having access to a few pixels in a video game is all it takes to make someone experience misery, they live a pretty sheltered life.

boolah.1325:

If people want the PvP backpack, they have to play PvP. If people want the FOTM backpack they have to play FOTM.. You want the legenday armor? Play the raids.. it’s that bloody simple.

I’m sure ANET would have made legendary armor for all gamemodes but the fact is that it’s obviously not that simple to do otherwise they would have done so.

Please don’t kitten about LI because you don’t have them. I’m sure the PvPers and WvWers hated the fact that if they wanted a legendary weapon, they had to do world completion to get it. Now you need LI and if it’s too hard to get 150 then you simply don’t deserve the armor!

Anet owns the game and have decided that only people willing to raid, or to pay others to raid for them, deserve the armor. You are correct. But then, the company, in deciding that paying customer A is not as important as paying customer B, by making an entire tier of armor exclusive to player B, perhaps is no more entitled to player A’s money than player A is to access to legendary armor.

I would have preferred that raiders get access to a unique weapon skin than armor, because weapons are easier to produce. A title, cape, emote, or something would have been even better IMO. Unique name plate colors or badges even. But I was not really bothered by the idea that the first set of legendary armor would go to the newest classification of content that Anet felt the need to incentivize…but if raids will be the only means of accessing an entire tier of armor, that is something else.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Like it has been told countless time, the comparison is simply not valid nor reasonable in the context. This is the only option in existence to get that tier of armor and they wont produce anymore.

Actually it is both reasonable and valid. There is no second Ad Infinitum as well. The Ascension is NOT the same item. Yes, they are both backpacks. Yes, they are both stat-selectable. But that’s not everything they are. Not even close.

By the way, the argument about stat-selection is what’s actually blown out of proportion. I very rarely stat-select my gear. It is simply too much of a hassle for half the desired effect, at best. Even with free rune-swapping, it is still something rarely done, as I’d need to also change my build, trinkets and whatnot.

People don’t really care about the functionality that much. They want the exclusivity and they deceive themselves because “functionality should be equal for all” is easier to accept than “I’m envious”.

Feanor.2358:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Like it has been told countless time, the comparison is simply not valid nor reasonable in the context. This is the only option in existence to get that tier of armor and they wont produce anymore.

Actually it is both reasonable and valid. There is no second Ad Infinitum as well. The Ascension is NOT the same item. Yes, they are both backpacks. Yes, they are both stat-selectable. But that’s not everything they are. Not even close.

By the way, the argument about stat-selection is what’s actually blown out of proportion. I very rarely stat-select my gear. It is simply too much of a hassle for half the desired effect, at best. Even with free rune-swapping, it is still something rarely done, as I’d need to also change my build, trinkets and whatnot.

People don’t really care about the functionality that much. They want the exclusivity and they deceive themselves because “functionality should be equal for all” is easier to accept than “I’m envious”.

An entire tier of armor is quite different from a variation in skin.

I am glad that stat switching means little to you. It saves you time, gold, and storage space. Others feel differently. I know that freeing up some inventory space, as I currently have several sets of armor for my main character and a couple each for my alts, would be nice.

Do they? Or are they just looking for a reason to justify their position? Not necessarily consciously, mind you.

Feanor.2358:

Do they? Or are they just looking for a reason to justify their position? Not necessarily consciously, mind you.

Well, speaking just for myself, I do. I would love to have more space available and to have less hassle in playing around with different builds. I dont care about the skin of legendary armor, and would transmute it if I had it-so no one would ever be able to tell I had it.

I fully supported the idea of raids getting the FIRST set, willing to wait to see when options were added for WvW or even, possibly, sPvP…but the idea that an entire tier’s functionality is gated in this manner, permanently? This is concerning to me.

There is no prestige for me to be jealous of. This is something that can be purchased with real money. The fact that my job pays better or worse than someone else’s is not a matter of in game prestige.

Xstein.2187:

The main point is just that some things have qualities that make them hard or nearly impossible to compare to other things to the point that they shouldn’t be compared to the point of equality.

Ok, so long as you don’t then claim that raids are somehow incomparable to other ingame activities. Anythign in GW2 can be compared to anything else in GW2 to some degree.

And the analogy about money made per hour was about how people performing different work for the same amount of time is not necessarily equal.

Which nobody disputes. Nobody is talking about offering identical rewards per unit of time regardless of the work being done.

Of course you could make the same amount of money if you worked longer. However, this is exactly why I made the super bowl ring analogy. Because there are some things that don’t work this way. Time does not alway make things equal. Even if you don’t believer this, I can assure you many others do.

And again, I’ll repeat that a superbowl ring should not be compared to weapon and armor skins. the ring has no inherent value beyond as a symbol that you participated in a superbowl (yes, it does include precious metals and jewels, but you could make your own ring with similar material value and nothing would stop you doing so), while a skin has value whether or not it denotes that you participated in content.

However, that STILL doesn’t make getting on the leaderboards in pvp equal to insights.

Why not?

From your last post, I get the vibe that you think I think raids are much more difficult than all other areas of the game and that I think no other areas of the game should get legendary armor. However, I can assure you that this is not the case at all.

Then there is no problem with other areas of the game being sources for Legendary armor progression.

As to the rest of your post, I can honestly say I have no idea what you actually do believe at this point.

apharma.3741:

No get off your lazy backside and earn them, there’s a lot of titles and prestigious items in the game you have to work hard to earn and that is why people go for them.

Any items that do fall into that category should be changed. If players want to “go for” high prestige items, that’s great, but these “high prestige” items should not come in the form of weapon or armor skins, because players can reasonably want those regardless of any associated prestige.

If everyone was suddenly handed out noble peace prizes for doing a years worth of charity work the value of that has plummeted dramatically.

Again, you’re talking about a trophy, an item which has no value outside of its value as a signifier of achievement. I’m talking about weapon and armor skins, which DO have a value even if everyone got one for free.

Putting aside that I have a hard time believing you are over 20 with your warped views, what game were you referring to that you had been playing for 15 years that simply gave you anything you wanted any way you wanted without ever having to leave your comfort zone?

I didn’t say “game” singular, I said “games” plural. not counting pre-MMO games, my first MMO was Asheron’s Call, then EQ, DAoC, CoH, WoW, Champions, DCUO, SWTOR, and Marvel Heroes, and those are just the ones I’ve purchased or paid money into. My point wasn’t that these games did it better, it was that I loved GW2 because it was BETTER than any of these games. I’d played them all because they had something I wanted in a game, but ultimately left them all because of what they lacked, and GW2’s done the best job of being the game I wanted, the game without raiding, the game without “prestige” malarkey, where the whole point was cooperative, not competitive. HoT put a big hit into my faith in the franchise.

Fatalyz.7168:

Except that you tell the people that want skins as rewards for completing specific content, that what they want doesn’t matter, because it doesn’t make you happy.

Not that it doesn’t matter, just that it matters LESS.

If you want to have the skin so that you can have the skin? Great, so do I.

If you want to have [something] that can show off that you accomplished something significant to others? Weird, but that’s fine too, you can have that, in the form of a title, nametag flair, bundle, something that serves no function other than to wave your virtual codpiece around. Fine.

But if you want to have that in the form of a skin, and because you want to use it to show off, you want to deny other players convenient access to that skin, then no, not fine. I reject your entitlement to that right.

It is better for everyone who wants the skin to have it than for only those who like to raid to have it.

Heck, just look through this thread, you don’t even have majority support in this thread for making skins available through other modes.

I know, which comes as a complete shock to be on the raid boards of the official forums! You’d think that the board devoted to raiding would be more open to the idea of having their toys taken away so that the other kids can play with them too!

Where is the upside for people who want skins as rewards for completing specific content? And how does what you want, outweigh what they want?

That’s a selfish position. They do not deserve an upside. I was talking about people who just wanted to play and enjoy the game for themselves, not those who thrived on what others lack.

You are assuming that he is taking pleasure from the misery of others.

That’s not an assumption, it is a statement of fact.

There is pleasure in being able to achieve something that others are not, but that does not mean that it is malicious.

Not true. Taking pleasure in being able to do something that others cannot is inherently taking pleasure that others cannot do something, which is malicious. Now what is not malicious is in taking pleasure in your own accomplishments regardless of how many other people can do it, and without needing outside validation that they see your accomplishments.

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Do they? Or are they just looking for a reason to justify their position? Not necessarily consciously, mind you.

Well, speaking just for myself, I do. I would love to have more space available and to have less hassle in playing around with different builds.

Speaking for myself, I thought the same, back when I did my first legendary. But in the end I’ve stat-selected it very rarely. In the long run, I’m definitely behind on money because of that, and it never really made any difference on space. In hindsight, I could have simply stat-swapped ascended weapons to the exact same effect, at a fraction of the price.

That’s the thing though – we seek reasons to justify our choices and our desires. We usually find something that sounds reasonable and stick with it. But very often it isn’t the actual reason behind the choice/desire in question.

Ask yourself, honesty – do you really think you’d use the functionality often enough to justify the much higher price of the legendary armor? And following, do you think everyone who’s vocal about the legendary armor would? I don’t.

Ashen.2907:

I fully supported the idea of raids getting the FIRST set, willing to wait to see when options were added for WvW or even, possibly, sPvP…but the idea that an entire tier’s functionality is gated in this manner, permanently? This is concerning to me.

That’s another thing. Adding a second set is perfectly fine by me (but it’s ultimately up to ANet).

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Do they? Or are they just looking for a reason to justify their position? Not necessarily consciously, mind you.

Well, speaking just for myself, I do. I would love to have more space available and to have less hassle in playing around with different builds.

Speaking for myself, I thought the same, back when I did my first legendary. But in the end I’ve stat-selected it very rarely. In the long run, I’m definitely behind on money because of that, and it never really made any difference on space. In hindsight, I could have simply stat-swapped ascended weapons to the exact same effect, at a fraction of the price.

That’s the thing though – we seek reasons to justify our choices and our desires. We usually find something that sounds reasonable and stick with it. But very often it isn’t the actual reason behind the choice/desire in question.

Ask yourself, honesty – do you really think you’d use the functionality often enough to justify the much higher price of the legendary armor? And following, do you think everyone who’s vocal about the legendary armor would? I don’t.

Ashen.2907:

I fully supported the idea of raids getting the FIRST set, willing to wait to see when options were added for WvW or even, possibly, sPvP…but the idea that an entire tier’s functionality is gated in this manner, permanently? This is concerning to me.

That’s another thing. Adding a second set is perfectly fine by me (but it’s ultimately up to ANet).

In terms of price: Ive spent many thousands of gold on lesser things than making buildcrafting/switching (among my favorite aspects of the franchise) more convenient for me.

I still dont see how legendary armor can be measured as more than a convenience item for me. The skins are atrocious and there is no prestige in an item that can be purchased for real world money….particularly as the only visible indication of its nature would be functionally deleted.

Obviously some will lime the skins and will use them…but no (to me) prestige for something that can be purchased with real money and which is gated by time and grind.

Ohoni.6057:

It is better for everyone who wants the skin to have it than for only those who like to raid to have it.

This is your opinion that it would be better for everyone. I strongly disagree. It is better for everyone who wants skins as rewards for specific content.

Ohoni.6057:

You are assuming that he is taking pleasure from the misery of others.

That’s not an assumption, it is a statement of fact.

Really? Show me where he said, “I enjoy taking pleasure in the misery of others.”

Ohoni.6057:

There is pleasure in being able to achieve something that others are not, but that does not mean that it is malicious.

Not true. Taking pleasure in being able to do something that others cannot is inherently taking pleasure that others cannot do something, which is malicious. Now what is not malicious is in taking pleasure in your own accomplishments regardless of how many other people can do it, and without needing outside validation that they see your accomplishments.

That is your opinion of malicious. Let me provide you the definition:

Malicious: characterized by malice; intending or intended to do harm.
Malice: the intention or desire to do evil; ill will.

People that take pleasure in being able to accomplish something that others are not, are not evil, have an intention or desire to do evil or ill will towards those that can’t, nor are they intending to do harm to them.

What they are doing is being competitive, this is human nature and not inherently evil. You may disagree with that, but that is your opinion.

I’m curious. What are you going to do when the next expansion comes out and it has even more skins locked behind specific content? Specifically skins that you want behind content you don’t enjoy doing.

Fatalyz.7168:

Astralporing.1957:

DutchRiders.2871:

I take great pleasure in the fact that most players can’t get legendary armor.

Taking pleasure from the misery of others is not a good trait in my eyes, and is definitely the behaviour this game shouldn’t promote, as it is something that can only poison game community.

You are assuming that he is taking pleasure from the misery of others.

Why can’t his pleasure be that it is because it is an exclusive reward for a game mode that is the most challenging group content in the game, and that most people are either unwilling or unable to complete the content? There is pleasure in being able to achieve something that others are not, but that does not mean that it is malicious.

He didn’t say he was feeling pleasure from being able to finish a difficult content. He didn’t even say he felt pleasure from the fact other people can’t finish that content (which, by the way, is not really the same). What he felt was pleasure from the fact other people can’t get a certain specific item.
That’s just petty.

Feanor.2358:

Speaking for myself, I thought the same, back when I did my first legendary. But in the end I’ve stat-selected it very rarely. In the long run, I’m definitely behind on money because of that, and it never really made any difference on space. In hindsight, I could have simply stat-swapped ascended weapons to the exact same effect, at a fraction of the price.

Yeah, going for Legendaries because of stat swapping is silly. I have two Legendary weapons and the Ascension, and I often lose track of which character even has the actual Legendary version, because I set the stats where I wanted them and then never messed with it again, and then just transmuted the skins onto various other Ascended and Exotic weapons my characters already had. It’s all about the skins, not the stat swapping.

Fatalyz.7168:

This is your opinion that it would be better for everyone. I strongly disagree. It is better for everyone who wants skins as rewards for specific content.

That’s a rather preposterous standard though, that’s claiming to stand for a principled position held by an indeterminate number of people, rather than standing for the people who want the armor and cannot have it. It’s basically saying “I can’t support you getting that thing you want, because I want to support people who’s only position is that they don’t want you to have it.” The two are not equivalent positions.

Really? Show me where he said, “I enjoy taking pleasure in the misery of others.”

It wasn’t in reference to you, it was in reference to a statement by DutchRiders. Are you a sockpuppet account for DutchRiders?

That is your opinion of malicious. Let me provide you the definition:

Malicious: characterized by malice; intending or intended to do harm.
Malice: the intention or desire to do evil; ill will.

People that take pleasure in being able to accomplish something that others are not, are not evil, have an intention or desire to do evil or ill will towards those that can’t, nor are they intending to do harm to them.

That’s a rather fanciful take on it. I believe that taking pleasure in other people’s failings IS evil, IS ill will towards those people, and deliberately acting to prevent them from having an easier time of it IS evil, IS ill will towards them. You don’t, apparently.

I’m curious. What are you going to do when the next expansion comes out and it has even more skins locked behind specific content? Specifically skins that you want behind content you don’t enjoy doing.

I’ll continue to push for them making these available to all players in a way that they find enjoyable, as I have been doing for as long as this has been an issue.

Ohoni.6057:

That is your opinion of malicious. Let me provide you the definition:

Malicious: characterized by malice; intending or intended to do harm.
Malice: the intention or desire to do evil; ill will.

People that take pleasure in being able to accomplish something that others are not, are not evil, have an intention or desire to do evil or ill will towards those that can’t, nor are they intending to do harm to them.

That’s a rather fanciful take on it. I believe that taking pleasure in other people’s failings IS evil, IS ill will towards those people, and deliberately acting to prevent them from having an easier time of it IS evil, IS ill will towards them. You don’t, apparently.

I do not take any pleasure in other people’s failings, and striving to maintain a standard, is not any of the above either. Taking a moral stance on whether skins should a reward behind specific content, is really not even worthy of discussion, and has no bearing on any conversation of worth.

If you really think that your idea is so much better for the game. Please go create a survey/poll/etc asking if skins should be locked behind specific content, post it to Reddit, and let the community show Anet what they want. If it is better for the game, I’m sure the community will come together behind you, and you can really show Anet how the community feels.

Fatalyz.7168:

If you really think that your idea is so much better for the game. Please go create a survey/poll/etc asking if skins should be locked behind specific content, post it to Reddit, and let the community show Anet what they want. If it is better for the game, I’m sure the community will come together behind you, and you can really show Anet how the community feels.

In case you’re unaware, polling for opt-in online communities are rarely representative of the views of the in-game population. LotRO, for example, once noted that the majority of their forums population seemed heavily invested in raiding, while only less than 15% of actual players spent any time in them.

Ohoni.6057:

Fatalyz.7168:

If you really think that your idea is so much better for the game. Please go create a survey/poll/etc asking if skins should be locked behind specific content, post it to Reddit, and let the community show Anet what they want. If it is better for the game, I’m sure the community will come together behind you, and you can really show Anet how the community feels.

In case you’re unaware, polling for opt-in online communities are rarely representative of the views of the in-game population. LotRO, for example, once noted that the majority of their forums population seemed heavily invested in raiding, while only less than 15% of actual players spent any time in them.

But surely if your idea were so righteous and so much better for the game, even that percentage would have overwhelmingly support your idea.

Fatalyz.7168:

But surely if your idea were so righteous and so much better for the game, even that percentage would have overwhelmingly support your idea.

Saying this betrays that you have absolutely no idea how a poll works or why a scientifically administered poll has any actual value.

Ohoni.6057:

Fatalyz.7168:

But surely if your idea were so righteous and so much better for the game, even that percentage would have overwhelmingly support your idea.

Saying this betrays that you have absolutely no idea how a poll works or why a scientifically administered poll has any actual value.

Or because I want you to prove yourself. I also did not just narrow it down to a poll. I specifically said “vote/poll/etc”. So that you would have some way to show support for an idea you think is better for the game. But you know, attack me instead of taking the idea and finding a way for you to champion your idea and show actual support for it, besides arguing on a forum.

It’s convenient of you that you can claim that you see a better way for the game for everyone that plays this game, but unwillingly to gather any data that the community agrees with you.

Your stance essentially boils down to, “I’m morally right in this, it doesn’t matter what the majority of the community wants in this, but I can’t or won’t prove what the majority of the community wants, you just have to take my word for it, and if you don’t, you are an evil person that has ill will towards other, and take pleasure in their misery.”

This is no longer worthy of discussion with you.

Ashen.2907:

I still dont see how legendary armor can be measured as more than a convenience item for me. The skins are atrocious and there is no prestige in an item that can be purchased for real world money….particularly as the only visible indication of its nature would be functionally deleted.

Obviously some will lime the skins and will use them…but no (to me) prestige for something that can be purchased with real money and which is gated by time and grind.

Technically, pretty much anything can be bought with real-world money. Does it mean there’s no prestige to be had at all in this world? No. Regardless, it doesn’t make the item any more practical. I’m sure there are players which will use it as convenience item, and I’m also sure they are a very small minority. For the rest, it’s just vanity.