Guild Wars 2

I don’t know how it hasn’t been brought up that though melee is much more damage efficient, virtually every boss with an auto-attack will zone you. Virtually every boss that drops red circles will camp in them. Some bosses by their mechanics alone are explicitly not meant to be melee’d.

Yes, overall melee is better simply because the motif of the game is to nuke and dodge, but melee will in fact be broken as long as the aggro/boss auto-attacks remain the same.

I’m not sure how everyone else seems to avoid being zoned, whether they’ve got a full knight’s guardian in every group, or just don’t do any damage, I don’t know.

Needless to say though, it’s pretty irritating needing to disengage from a boss and kite in circles each time you get aggro. As it stands most bosses that do regular swings do so too frequently to dodge consistently.

For instance, cliffside Archdiviner and the snow svanir boss. You can’t dodge the melee frequently enough, and you certainly can’t tank it.

I’d love to see someone say this is an l2p issue and melee as it stands is acceptable. Though of course, if you down and get res’d, you’ll probably end up doing the same or higher overall damage than most ranged, but that is NOT the point.

Avylin.2635:

Some bosses by their mechanics alone are explicitly not meant to be melee’d.

I can personally only think of a handful of bosses that you can’t fully melee:

• HotW p1 and p3 endboss
• Ooze boss in Arah p1 (if you’re not exploiting him)
• Ascalonian Captain (only for the last 25%, other than that, you’re good to go)
• SE p2 endbosses when the stun fields are up

The only one on that list you can’t melee at all is the Ooze boss. All the other ones you can move in and out of melee depending on the situation.

Other than that, I’ve melee’ed down every single boss in the game. There is 1 boss I usually don’t melee and that’s the Grawl Shaman boss, but that’s not an issue of not being able to melee, but more an issue that they changed his AI so that he uses his dive attacks a lot more often in some patch a couple of months ago, meaning that you’ll be dodging and moving out of melee range way too much, essentially losing DPS. Before they did that, I always fully melee’ed him.

Avylin.2635:

I’d love to see someone say this is an l2p issue and melee as it stands is acceptable. Though of course, if you down and get res’d, you’ll probably end up doing the same or higher overall damage than most ranged, but that is NOT the point.

L2P. Melee is acceptable as it stands.

Ethics.4519:

Avylin.2635:

I’d love to see someone say this is an l2p issue and melee as it stands is acceptable. Though of course, if you down and get res’d, you’ll probably end up doing the same or higher overall damage than most ranged, but that is NOT the point.

L2P. Melee is acceptable as it stands.

I have to agree, infact I would probably say it’s a bit too good.

Bright: those for sure, probably the guardian & final bosses in CMp2, and the concept behind final dredge boss requiring it to be kited (save the final % nuke).

Ethics: you probably ought to read my post entirely before making a fool of yourself, either that or you don’t do enough dps to pull threat. If you have aggro, most bosses with an auto-attack can no longer be melee’d because you won’t have the sustain to continue attacking them, causing you to be zoned. That is not acceptable, even if melee does more damage than range having one sucker with aggro run in circles while the other melee chase it (4 attacking vs 5). If you predict who pulls threat the most often, that person can swap to a range weapon I guess, but that in itself is pretty silly.

Edit: The reason I originally bothered to post is because I’m legitimately curious what people’s solution to this issue is. It could just be that competent warriors are OK with being able to engage a boss half the time (with the other half spent trying to drop aggro), which simply doesn’t appeal to me.

Honestly I circle strafe most of the time when on the axe side of GS/axe rotation, and never really noticed a difference. Maybe it’s because I didn’t expect there to be one, with the hilarious tracking fails like dredge and other mobs shooting backwards through themselves. From my experience the only boss where strafing was used as a crucial avoidance mechanic is Seamus from CM.

I’ll take your word for it, but in regards to snowblind shaman, firstly I don’t feel it’s valid to assume every run will have 2 guardians, especially ones dedicated to being more rather than less useful. Secondly, assuming the boss attacks one person throughout, if you can’t dodge entirely through strafing the AA+dot are going to end up doing significant damage. Not to mention 20% of the time the boss is vulnerable he’s breathing.

I appreciate the input, though I’d be genuinely surprised if the mob tracking allowed for this.

x per fection x.2096:

restoration.2806:

I play longbow ranger and I kill PvE. Full knight’s helps alot. But I do agree that melee seems to be favored.

So you stand at 1200-1500 and auto attack while your team does all the work plus use a useless stat like toughness over crit damage because your unable to dodge the 1/2 attacks that might come your way per dungeon at that range and say you agree? Come on now.

Don’t forget to spam that point blank shot every time a guard uses binding blades for maximum dps!

Thats quite a stereotype. Maybe playing something besides CoF P1 and a class besides warrior might open up your mind.

Avylin.2635:

I’ll take your word for it, but in regards to snowblind shaman, firstly I don’t feel it’s valid to assume every run will have 2 guardians, especially ones dedicated to being more rather than less useful. Secondly, assuming the boss attacks one person throughout, if you can’t dodge entirely through strafing the AA+dot are going to end up doing significant damage. Not to mention 20% of the time the boss is vulnerable he’s breathing.

You only really need 1 guardian for the fight which would use hammer for perma prot. It would probably work better since it would have a more clear target and the rest can stack up behind him. The boss is faceroll in melee. Here is a group of mine beating it in 2.5min in full melee at 48 though we did have 2 guardians with similar gear which made his targeting more hassle than it’s worth to have 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7EyabBIfmk

Avylin.2635:

For instance, cliffside Archdiviner and the snow svanir boss. You can’t dodge the melee frequently enough, and you certainly can’t tank it.

The first archdiviner fight isn’t bad. Here is a 2.5min fractal 48 full melee of him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_CxZV3WYk8

The first phase of the second fight is more of the same. He just hits faster/harder. If you have good guardians that know how to use aegis and people that can dodge phase 1 isn’t bad. As for the other phases I don’t know. They seem doable as well. I never get to try it out since everyone wants to cheese it….though I don’t blame them given the AMAZING!!!!!!! rewards of blues….

obal.3218:

The first phase of the second fight is more of the same. He just hits faster/harder. If you have good guardians that know how to use aegis and people that can dodge phase 1 isn’t bad. As for the other phases I don’t know. They seem doable as well. I never get to try it out since everyone wants to cheese it….though I don’t blame them given the AMAZING!!!!!!! rewards of blues….

Well, considering the fact that.. his melee autoattack deals agony during phase 2 of the end-of-the-run-2nd-archdiviner-encounter I wouldn’t really want to melee that one. You’d have to both avoid ALL of his melee attack AND the flashing AoE agony. That’s.. a lot of dodge. Although it could work with experience and endurance regen food or signet of stamina maybe.

Nikaido.3457:

obal.3218:

The first phase of the second fight is more of the same. He just hits faster/harder. If you have good guardians that know how to use aegis and people that can dodge phase 1 isn’t bad. As for the other phases I don’t know. They seem doable as well. I never get to try it out since everyone wants to cheese it….though I don’t blame them given the AMAZING!!!!!!! rewards of blues….

Well, considering the fact that.. his melee autoattack deals agony during phase 2 of the end-of-the-run-2nd-archdiviner-encounter I wouldn’t really want to melee that one. You’d have to both avoid ALL of his melee attack AND the flashing AoE agony. That’s.. a lot of dodge. Although it could work with experience and endurance regen food or signet of stamina maybe.

Yeah but I’m up for a challenge now and then. I’m sure it would be really annoying to do but it’s probably doable.

Sure there are a few bosses that need to be ranged (ex – dredge fractal ones) given the intended mechanics that would make it worse to melee, but everything else can be fought in melee with a faster kill time than range. If the hardest boss can be killed in melee with no one wearing armor in the same time as the average ranged pug = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnuGB9EZv-s or soloed in melee by every class in the game you can’t make a topic/statement that melee is not for gw2.

/thread

I’ve been saying you get zoned frequently as a melee capable of pulling threat, which, and while I appreciate the videos you linked, happened several times to the warriors even with added guardian sustain. Not to mention I’ve virtually never run with a guardian who uses a hammer on any occasion.

It could be that they weren’t strafing well enough, and I won’t argue the point until I test it myself. However, with warrior sustain, you cannot tank the hits for any amount of time and expect your 30s heal to be back by the time you need it, even accounting for dodges.

Avylin.2635:

Not to mention I’ve virtually never run with a guardian who uses a hammer on any occasion.

That’s.. pretty sad, and if I were you, I’d see it as a sign that I’d need to look for a better guild or build up a better friendlist.

Nikaido.3457:

Avylin.2635:

Not to mention I’ve virtually never run with a guardian who uses a hammer on any occasion.

That’s.. pretty sad, and if I were you, I’d see it as a sign that I’d need to look for a better guild or build up a better friendlist.

I guess that everyone’s not an elitist who wants everybody to melee full zerk with at leat one guardian in the party.
Stop assuming that everyone’s trying to speed running every dungeons.

Bright.9160:

—
The only one on that list you can’t melee at all is the Ooze boss. All the other ones you can move in and out of melee depending on the situation.
—

I wonder how I soloed it with only melee weapons.

Wethospu.6437:

Bright.9160:

—
The only one on that list you can’t melee at all is the Ooze boss. All the other ones you can move in and out of melee depending on the situation.
—

I wonder how I soloed it with only melee weapons.

It’s not melee-able if you are reasonable and care about efficiency. You spend too much time backing off and just spamming rifle on that boss would take a lot less time.
You know spending a lot of time using whirlwind, impale, bladetrail and throw axe is not most people definition of melee friendly.

Riss.1536:

Nikaido.3457:

Avylin.2635:

Not to mention I’ve virtually never run with a guardian who uses a hammer on any occasion.

That’s.. pretty sad, and if I were you, I’d see it as a sign that I’d need to look for a better guild or build up a better friendlist.

I guess that everyone’s not an elitist who wants everybody to melee full zerk with at leat one guardian in the party.
Stop assuming that everyone’s trying to speed running every dungeons.

Although I really don’t like elitist and I won’t tell you to get “better” friends and such. Guardian’s hammer really is amazing. You should try that. Imo almost every guardian weapon is amazing except torch lol.

Lian Olsam.9541:

first game that hate melee players… some classes can switch weapon and use one ranged and one melee, i love to play ele dd and i can do anything for keep playing with that weapon, so i have to use staff and i hate it… pls do something about that

o.O I think your topic title is misleading AND does not belong in the dungeon forum. What you are essentially saying is that you want weapon switching for elementalists. For the record, I have seen plenty of D/D eles in normal dungeons and fractals.

GW 2 most certainly does not hate melee players but from personal experience of many, many hours logged in normal dungeons and Fractals, I know that you need a certain level of “comfort” with your class to pull off melee properly. Especially with Guardians and warriors, I can always tell when someone is new to dungeons – they mostly stay at range.

My advice is you keep trying to be D/D in dungeons and you’ll get better at being D/D in dungeons.

Avylin.2635:

Not to mention I’ve virtually never run with a guardian who uses a hammer on any occasion.

I use a hammer in dungeons 95% of the time. I also run into a lot of guardians with hammers in dungeons. What is rare are mace guardians. I think I ran into a grand total of 2 in all my dungeon runs.

Afya.5842:

Imo almost every guardian weapon is amazing except torch lol.

Torch is supposed to be great with 1-h sword and I see lot of “zerker guardians” use 1-h sword + torch. They seem to do okay.

Avylin.2635:

I don’t know how it hasn’t been brought up that though melee is much more damage efficient, virtually every boss with an auto-attack will zone you. Virtually every boss that drops red circles will camp in them. Some bosses by their mechanics alone are explicitly not meant to be melee’d.

Yes, overall melee is better simply because the motif of the game is to nuke and dodge, but melee will in fact be broken as long as the aggro/boss auto-attacks remain the same.

I’m not sure how everyone else seems to avoid being zoned, whether they’ve got a full knight’s guardian in every group, or just don’t do any damage, I don’t know.

Needless to say though, it’s pretty irritating needing to disengage from a boss and kite in circles each time you get aggro. As it stands most bosses that do regular swings do so too frequently to dodge consistently.

For instance, cliffside Archdiviner and the snow svanir boss. You can’t dodge the melee frequently enough, and you certainly can’t tank it.

I’d love to see someone say this is an l2p issue and melee as it stands is acceptable. Though of course, if you down and get res’d, you’ll probably end up doing the same or higher overall damage than most ranged, but that is NOT the point.

Archdiviner and the Svanir boss are melee bosses. Even if I am the only player doing it. Just knowing when to back out is important. This is not L2P, this is opinion driven. Yes you run the risk of being downed but with practice you get a better understanding of how the bosses attack. For instance, when the Archdiviner pauses to drop circles he will not attack. Get in there and melee him down. If it means taking one red circle of conditions, so be it. Strip the conditions on your way out. Rinse and repeat.

Tinni.4351:

Torch is supposed to be great with 1-h sword and I see lot of “zerker guardians” use 1-h sword + torch. They seem to do okay.

I may retry that one day. But I don’t think the #5 damage is much better than other skills as it being a channeled skill.

Nikaido.3457:

Wethospu.6437:

Bright.9160:

—
The only one on that list you can’t melee at all is the Ooze boss. All the other ones you can move in and out of melee depending on the situation.
—

I wonder how I soloed it with only melee weapons.

It’s not melee-able if you are reasonable and care about efficiency. You spend too much time backing off and just spamming rifle on that boss would take a lot less time.
You know spending a lot of time using whirlwind, impale, bladetrail and throw axe is not most people definition of melee friendly.

I haven’t tried it to solo it with Rifle but I trust you have and know what you are talking about.
Also if melee weapons (or is axe/gs ranged now?) have ranged skills wouldn’t it be bit foolish to not use them?

Nikaido.3457:

Wethospu.6437:

Bright.9160:

—
The only one on that list you can’t melee at all is the Ooze boss. All the other ones you can move in and out of melee depending on the situation.
—

I wonder how I soloed it with only melee weapons.

It’s not melee-able if you are reasonable and care about efficiency. You spend too much time backing off and just spamming rifle on that boss would take a lot less time.
You know spending a lot of time using whirlwind, impale, bladetrail and throw axe is not most people definition of melee friendly.

o.O really? we’re going to call whirlwind bad dps?

Wow what an idiot even casters are forced to melee in PvE…

Player Character.9467:

Nikaido.3457:

Wethospu.6437:

Bright.9160:

—
The only one on that list you can’t melee at all is the Ooze boss. All the other ones you can move in and out of melee depending on the situation.
—

I wonder how I soloed it with only melee weapons.

It’s not melee-able if you are reasonable and care about efficiency. You spend too much time backing off and just spamming rifle on that boss would take a lot less time.
You know spending a lot of time using whirlwind, impale, bladetrail and throw axe is not most people definition of melee friendly.

o.O really? we’re going to call whirlwind bad dps?

If it’s not against a wall OR part of a rotation that is interrupted (interrupting ww so that you stay in melee range) that lets you continue autoattack, yes it’s pretty bad dps. Or did you really think that there is any efficiency behind the idea of almost never being in actual melee range of a mob, almost never hitting any of your autoattacks, while using melee weapon, using whirlwind then throwing bladetrails, axes, impales one after the other when it’s not on cd ? Do you really think you can beat continuous uninterrupted rifle dps with that ? Common sense much ?

You probably didn’t even watch any of the videos where he does that. It might be fun and bring challenge since it’s what he’s looking for as a soloer but it’s hardly what a group would do in their right mind if their goal is to kill that ooze as fast as possible.

Nikaido.3457:

Player Character.9467:

Nikaido.3457:

Wethospu.6437:

Bright.9160:

—
The only one on that list you can’t melee at all is the Ooze boss. All the other ones you can move in and out of melee depending on the situation.
—

I wonder how I soloed it with only melee weapons.

It’s not melee-able if you are reasonable and care about efficiency. You spend too much time backing off and just spamming rifle on that boss would take a lot less time.
You know spending a lot of time using whirlwind, impale, bladetrail and throw axe is not most people definition of melee friendly.

o.O really? we’re going to call whirlwind bad dps?

If it’s not against a wall OR part of a rotation that is interrupted (interrupting ww so that you stay in melee range) OR a dodge OR a mobile strike

I’m just gonna cut you down to that so you stop putting random words on the page.

Refer to my Pic
/15char

Wethospu.6437:

Bright.9160:

—
The only one on that list you can’t melee at all is the Ooze boss. All the other ones you can move in and out of melee depending on the situation.
—

I wonder how I soloed it with only melee weapons.

By standing on the coral? Don’t worry, I know the exploits..

If not, I’d be impressed to see a video of you doing it legit.

Bright.9160:

By standing on the coral? Don’t worry, I know the exploits..

If not, I’d be impressed to see a video of you doing it legit.

Don’t worry, Weth is one of the few person I know who won’t use any exploits like most of you would (archdiviner, fixed dredge cage).

haviz.1340:

Bright.9160:

By standing on the coral? Don’t worry, I know the exploits..

If not, I’d be impressed to see a video of you doing it legit.

Don’t worry, Weth is one of the few person I know who won’t use any exploits like most of us would (archdiviner, fixed dredge cage).

FTFY

Since I saw the p2 video I know weth didn’t exploit this one fight, but unlike what you’re saying, he did use exploits for some of his solos so pretending that Weth is too good for that kind of stuff is pure lies. His Caudecus Manor path 2 for example is full of the typical exploits you see in pugs. Unless you really think hitting these mobs through walls was intended.

It might be strange for you but some people prefer challenge to farming and they won’t use exploits to justify their inability to faceroll through content.

Nikaido.3457:

Since I saw the p2 video I know weth didn’t exploit this one fight, but unlike what you’re saying, he did use exploits for some of his solos so pretending that Weth is too good for that kind of stuff is pure lies. His Caudecus Manor path 2 for example is full of the typical exploits you see in pugs. Unless you really think hitting these mobs through walls was intended.

Hitting anyone behind structure is possible even in pvp so I guess everyone is exploiting that and anet forgot to fix that.

haviz.1340:

It might be strange for you but some people prefer challenge to farming and they won’t use exploits to justify their inability to faceroll through content.

I faceroll through content without using exploits as well. I could skip the bosses before lupi in Arah p3 or skip lupi on p2 on every run if I wanted to, but I actually enjoy doing those fights, so I don’t.

I could glitch Frost on CM p1 runs, but I don’t, because I think it’s pretty weak.

I could range bosses from far away so I don’t get hit, but I don’t. Although I mainly don’t do that because most bosses are a joke, and die faster in melee anyway, so I don’t get why PUGs do it.

I could glitch out of the map in TA and skip certain bits of content in order to speed runs up, but I don’t. Although, mainly that’s because it wouldn’t speed it up THAT much.

I could gateskip CoF p2 and do it in <5minutes for farming purposes, but that dungeon bores me to death and I prefer Arah, so I don’t..

Etc, etc etc…

So, you are saying that the coral thing is an exploit (something you heavily implied by saying that Weth would never do such a thing) but hitting through walls mobs that won’t hit you back is not? Double standard much ?

Haviz has a very fluid definition of exploits : things he would use aren’t exploits, are never exploits, everything is perfectly legit. Killing any dungeon boss within 10 to 15 seconds with an item that clearly had an unintended side effect (unless you are saying anet actually intended for it to nearly one shot lupicus?) was also perfectly legit. Things used by people he deems unworthy, on the other hand, are dirty exploits.

We all know the drill by now, there’s no use arguing with haviz, dub and all the EU band. It’s like they are clones of each other.

Nikaido.3457:

So, you are saying that the coral thing is an exploit (something you heavily implied by saying that Weth would never do such a thing) but hitting through walls mobs that won’t hit you back is not? Double standard much ?

I’m saying that hitting through walls is possible everywhere (even in pvp) and anet didn’t fixed it since launch (and haven’t said anything about that) while they continually try to fix every kind of “ledge”-type exploit in dungs. Coral wasn’t fixed yet because almost no one does p1 and probably no one has even reported it because that boss is kittened for pro-melees team.

Haviz has a very fluid definition of exploits : things he would use aren’t exploits, are never exploits, everything is perfectly legit. Killing any dungeon boss within 10 to 15 seconds with an item that clearly had an unintended side effect (unless you are saying anet actually intended for it to nearly one shot lupicus?) was also perfectly legit. Things used by people he deems unworthy, on the other hand, are dirty exploits.

We all know the drill by now, there’s no use arguing with haviz, dub and all the EU band. It’s like they are clones of each other.

I’m getting quite bored here with your team-a here. I’ll try to use italic font so you can easily understand. I reported every exploit I found in this game and I do not use exploits in regular runs. Killing boss in 10s was discovered by accident and wasn’t used after I reported it. Have a nice exploiting of archdiviner during your perfectly legit 48 runs.

Nikaido.3457:

Since I saw the p2 video I know weth didn’t exploit this one fight, but unlike what you’re saying, he did use exploits for some of his solos so pretending that Weth is too good for that kind of stuff is pure lies. His Caudecus Manor path 2 for example is full of the typical exploits you see in pugs. Unless you really think hitting these mobs through walls was intended.

I agree hitting through wall is lame but it’s weird that you mention CM P2. Anet in their great wisdom added non-moving enemies (which is exactly why meleeing through walls is so effective). This also means I could range/melee them normally and heal behind corner.
I don’t really see any issue with it when there’s actually no challenge to ruin. And the reason why I did it was to keep it interesting and show game-mechanics. Not because killing few Silver/Elite would be too hard.

Anyway, I don’t claim I have done everything “legit”. I do my best to learn encounters properly (Ooze actually has two different attacks) and keep them interesting/challenging. Some parts may get too difficult so I have to get creative (like dodging Lupicus infection) and that may lead to questionable tactics (like using npcs as a meatshields).

I will get back on the Ooze-discussion when I have also recorded it ranged (and maybe redo melee with less mistakes) and compared times (~Tuesday).

Bright.9160:

Wethospu.6437:

I wonder how I soloed it with only melee weapons.

By standing on the coral? Don’t worry, I know the exploits..

If not, I’d be impressed to see a video of you doing it legit.

You can always check my channel (I would find you the link but loading any page is pain with my current connection)

My Warrior does just fine with my Greatsword/Hammer. Only using a Longbow on bosses it’s absolutely necessary for.

As well as my Scepter/Dagger Elementalist, getting in Melee for the most Might Stacking, Sword/Pistol Thief (shortbow off-set if I take too much damage), Bomb Engineer, Sword/Focus Mesmer, Dagger/Dagger Necro, Hammer and Mace/Shield Guardian.

Some of my classes have ranged off-sets but that’s for when I get in over my head because I’m not the best player. While melee is dangerous and can take a while to learn how to live, it is perfectly viable. Range = Less risk, less damage. Melee = More risk, more damage

Nikaido.3457:

Player Character.9467:

Nikaido.3457:

Wethospu.6437:

Bright.9160:

—
The only one on that list you can’t melee at all is the Ooze boss. All the other ones you can move in and out of melee depending on the situation.
—

I wonder how I soloed it with only melee weapons.

It’s not melee-able if you are reasonable and care about efficiency. You spend too much time backing off and just spamming rifle on that boss would take a lot less time.
You know spending a lot of time using whirlwind, impale, bladetrail and throw axe is not most people definition of melee friendly.

o.O really? we’re going to call whirlwind bad dps?

If it’s not against a wall OR part of a rotation that is interrupted (interrupting ww so that you stay in melee range) that lets you continue autoattack, yes it’s pretty bad dps. Or did you really think that there is any efficiency behind the idea of almost never being in actual melee range of a mob, almost never hitting any of your autoattacks, while using melee weapon, using whirlwind then throwing bladetrails, axes, impales one after the other when it’s not on cd ? Do you really think you can beat continuous uninterrupted rifle dps with that ? Common sense much ?

You probably didn’t even watch any of the videos where he does that. It might be fun and bring challenge since it’s what he’s looking for as a soloer but it’s hardly what a group would do in their right mind if their goal is to kill that ooze as fast as possible.

My initial solo with Greatsword/Axe/Sword with Shake it Off, On my mark and Bulls charge was about 5 minutes
I just killed it with Rifle with Banner of Strength, For Great Justice, Banner of Discipline and also used coral. Time to kill was about 5 minutes and 15 seconds.

So melee was faster even with poor utilities and without exploiting.