Guild Wars 2

Rising Dusk.2408:

Windsagio.1340:

This is why I get so salty on these ‘meta’ discussions. All this back and forth and complaining when it really won’t matter unless you’re speedrunning.

That’s a common misconception. It matters even more in non-speedrun contexts. If your entire team is running around in full clerics gear, your own ability to support them offfensively/defensively and provide massive DPS gains for the team are critical. It’s even more important than when you’re in a full meta group where each personal improvement is only a marginal team improvement.

Hell, it matters even more in open world where your ability to self-boost is critical because no one else will help you.

I am going to let this go because we don’t need another “WHAT IS META WAAH META” thread, but I’m letting it go with the note that I deeply disagree :p

Edited to say : “What Jerus said below is right on”

There’s a difference between Meta and just being good enough to contribute to the group though. Engi/Ranger aren’t meta but they’re not a problem in the group unless you’re going for a record. So as Nike said, as long as Necro can get up to Engi/Ranger level, all is good.

On the reaper, we also haven’t seen 4 of their weapon buttons, their heal, 2 of their utilities, or their elite

— or their traits. This might be a little early to declare :p

Ranking what they need to be “viable” to the point where you don’t feel like you are gimping your team by bringing a Necro…

1. Blast finishers
2. DPS
3. Fun rotation
4. Unique support

The more and more I though about it the more I realized how important the blasts are to a coordinated team.

just wait, all their utility shouts are blast finishers!

NikeEU.7690:

Ranking what they need to be “viable” to the point where you don’t feel like you are gimping your team by bringing a Necro…

1. Blast finishers
2. DPS
3. Fun rotation
4. Unique support

The more and more I though about it the more I realized how important the blasts are to a coordinated team.

I’d add active defenses in there, meaning at the very least vigor, but ideally an evade or block, or even both on the GS or DS skills.

Windsagio.1340:

I am going to let this go because we don’t need another “WHAT IS META WAAH META” thread, but I’m letting it go with the note that I deeply disagree :p

Edited to say : “What Jerus said below is right on”

Sure, I’m not even disagreeing; my entire previous post had nothing to do with meta and more to do with actually being worth a kitten in a team. Having team support is important in order to feel useful in a general sense playing anything with anyone. Even without other people and ignoring how braindead easy the open world is, having general support you can boost yourself and the occasional ally up with is important in order to really handle those low-man situations. The Necromancer needs a lot of all of these things in order to really be worthwhile in any context.

One way to make necros viable without changing anything is to design a “raid” that involves vertical movement for a segment of the raid. Imagine an event objective where you have to reach the bottom of a cliff. If you were to run down normally, it would take several minutes due to the nature of the route and enemy placement. Or you can have a necro just jump off a ledge and use that skill that prevents him from taking any falling damage. Upon reaching the bottom of the cliff, you unlock a waypoint.

EcoRI.9273:

One way to make necros viable without changing anything is to design a “raid” that involves vertical movement for a segment of the raid. Imagine an event objective where you have to reach the bottom of a cliff. If you were to run down normally, it would take several minutes due to the nature of the route and enemy placement. Or you can have a necro just jump off a ledge and use that skill that prevents him from taking any falling damage. Upon reaching the bottom of the cliff, you unlock a waypoint.

So rather than make the class viable for everything, even in a non-meta way, ANet should add a gimmick segment to everything that they do from now on that involves falling + a WP at the bottom? Just so that there’s one point in the dungeon that it’s not a complete waste to bring a Necro? While that sort of thing would be neat as a gimmick in a single instance, as it’s always fun to see interesting/cheesy options like that every once in a while, all that does is push the issues of the class to the side. If Necros are still extremely subpar at everything but this one lone gimmick spot (that has to be in every bit of new content or all it will do is shove all of the Necros into a single raid… where they’ll still want a class of not-Necros for every other position) then nothing will change. All it would be is like how Necro is the most important part of the EotM meta (lol, fear walls). Having gimmicks is one thing and being based around a central gimmick isn’t a problem, but when all your class devolves into for serious play is “I jump down the cliff for this one part, and then just go stand in the corner for the rest due to it being just as relevant as if I was there,” then something really needs to be done.

I have to say though, as long as they get a reliable Blast finisher + a good enough dps boost I think they’ll be fine. If their auto-attacks give enough Chill as to be relevant they can perform pretty solidly for non-meta purposes (ala Ranger).

Another thought: We don’t know the heal yet (although the stream I can’t watch is going on right now so maybe we do), but from what I’ve heard it’s also a shout. That’s interesting.

On the shouts, as I Think more it’ll probably be teh third leg of a triangle.

Warrior shouts: Offensive buffs (mostly)
Guardian shouts: Defensive buffs (entirely)
Reaper shouts: Negative effect on enemies.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

EcoRI.9273:

One way to make necros viable without changing anything is to design a “raid” that involves vertical movement for a segment of the raid. Imagine an event objective where you have to reach the bottom of a cliff. If you were to run down normally, it would take several minutes due to the nature of the route and enemy placement. Or you can have a necro just jump off a ledge and use that skill that prevents him from taking any falling damage. Upon reaching the bottom of the cliff, you unlock a waypoint.

So rather than make the class viable for everything, even in a non-meta way, ANet should add a gimmick segment to everything that they do from now on that involves falling + a WP at the bottom? Just so that there’s one point in the dungeon that it’s not a complete waste to bring a Necro? While that sort of thing would be neat as a gimmick in a single instance, as it’s always fun to see interesting/cheesy options like that every once in a while, all that does is push the issues of the class to the side. If Necros are still extremely subpar at everything but this one lone gimmick spot (that has to be in every bit of new content or all it will do is shove all of the Necros into a single raid… where they’ll still want a class of not-Necros for every other position) then nothing will change. All it would be is like how Necro is the most important part of the EotM meta (lol, fear walls). Having gimmicks is one thing and being based around a central gimmick isn’t a problem, but when all your class devolves into for serious play is “I jump down the cliff for this one part, and then just go stand in the corner for the rest due to it being just as relevant as if I was there,” then something really needs to be done.

I have to say though, as long as they get a reliable Blast finisher + a good enough dps boost I think they’ll be fine. If their auto-attacks give enough Chill as to be relevant they can perform pretty solidly for non-meta purposes (ala Ranger).

Currently as long as you have 1 guard,1ele,1thief,1warrior, dungeons will be fast regardless of what you bring as a 5th. Yes necros will be slower than everything else but by how much? Probably less than 10 seconds in a casual run compared to the other 2nd tier classes(mes,ranger,engi). And probably 30seconds compared to a second ele. A large part of dungeons in todays meta is really just running from point A to point B. DPS is hardly a huge factor as most of you think.

TL:DR necros are viable to bring to casual runs. Gimmick allows necros to be viable in record runs.

OK! I got it! the unique utility that necros can bring to dungeons to make them a must have. Summon a undead merchant. lets be real here guys, in a dungeon tour you all probably spend 30minutes merchanting, be efficient with your dungeon rotations so your bag gets full in time gated paths and pop that undead merchant and be the most popular class in gw2.

lol nice one! XD

Windsagio.1340:

Another thought: We don’t know the heal yet (although the stream I can’t watch is going on right now so maybe we do), but from what I’ve heard it’s also a shout. That’s interesting.

On the shouts, as I Think more it’ll probably be teh third leg of a triangle.

Warrior shouts: Offensive buffs (mostly)
Guardian shouts: Defensive buffs (entirely)
Reaper shouts: Negative effect on enemies.

Not sure what stream you are referring to because the specs are previewed on friday.

EcoRI.9273:

Currently as long as you have 1 guard,1ele,1thief,1warrior, dungeons will be fast regardless of what you bring as a 5th. Yes necros will be slower than everything else but by how much? Probably less than 10 seconds in a casual run compared to the other 2nd tier classes(mes,ranger,engi). And probably 30seconds compared to a second ele. A large part of dungeons in todays meta is really just running from point A to point B. DPS is hardly a huge factor as most of you think.

TL:DR necros are viable to bring to casual runs. Gimmick allows necros to be viable in record runs.

Do you really believe that all of the people (or at least most of them) complaining about Necros not being viable are doing so because it’s not viable in a record run? And especially ones that actually have the “meta shell” of the 1 Guard/1 Ele/1 Thief/1 Warrior?

While there are many irrelevant complaints towards the problems that necros have, as there are always people who strictly want to see their class be on top and don’t care about anything else, a fair amount of the complaints are done from people who want a good enough reason to log onto their Necro for serious-ish play. They aren’t the people that will ever do a speed run in real terms (only a pale shade of what is actually done), they’re the people who will just PUG up a dungeon and go from there. Their goal? Not to get banned (and while I’ve never actually seen it happen in my hundreds of runs, I’ve never played one of the classes that it would be a problem in), and to be a indisputable part of a team in terms of being relevant.

And you’re right about them being fine in a casual setting. It’s why I’ve never banned the thousands of Necros that I’ve seen in dungeon runs (the record for that being three Necros on a single team, with the other not-me person being a Ranger). However, that doesn’t change the perception of the class, nor does it change the fact that they’re the only class that doesn’t fill a relevant role in any dungeon composition. In this game, the meta is perception, and Necros are easily in the worst spot as is.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

Another thought: We don’t know the heal yet (although the stream I can’t watch is going on right now so maybe we do), but from what I’ve heard it’s also a shout. That’s interesting.

On the shouts, as I Think more it’ll probably be teh third leg of a triangle.

Warrior shouts: Offensive buffs (mostly)
Guardian shouts: Defensive buffs (entirely)
Reaper shouts: Negative effect on enemies.

Not sure what stream you are referring to because the specs are previewed on friday.

kitten, misread the news item.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

EcoRI.9273:

Currently as long as you have 1 guard,1ele,1thief,1warrior, dungeons will be fast regardless of what you bring as a 5th. Yes necros will be slower than everything else but by how much? Probably less than 10 seconds in a casual run compared to the other 2nd tier classes(mes,ranger,engi). And probably 30seconds compared to a second ele. A large part of dungeons in todays meta is really just running from point A to point B. DPS is hardly a huge factor as most of you think.

TL:DR necros are viable to bring to casual runs. Gimmick allows necros to be viable in record runs.

Do you really believe that all of the people (or at least most of them) complaining about Necros not being viable are doing so because it’s not viable in a record run? And especially ones that actually have the “meta shell” of the 1 Guard/1 Ele/1 Thief/1 Warrior?

While there are many irrelevant complaints towards the problems that necros have, as there are always people who strictly want to see their class be on top and don’t care about anything else, a fair amount of the complaints are done from people who want a good enough reason to log onto their Necro for serious-ish play. They aren’t the people that will ever do a speed run in real terms (only a pale shade of what is actually done), they’re the people who will just PUG up a dungeon and go from there. Their goal? Not to get banned (and while I’ve never actually seen it happen in my hundreds of runs, I’ve never played one of the classes that it would be a problem in), and to be a indisputable part of a team in terms of being relevant.

And you’re right about them being fine in a casual setting. It’s why I’ve never banned the thousands of Necros that I’ve seen in dungeon runs (the record for that being three Necros on a single team, with the other not-me person being a Ranger). However, that doesn’t change the perception of the class, nor does it change the fact that they’re the only class that doesn’t fill a relevant role in any dungeon composition. In this game, the meta is perception, and Necros are easily in the worst spot as is.

Let’s be frank though, it’s just a ‘thing’. Situation for necros is not nearly as bad as people let on, but it’s become accepted common knowledge that they’re worthless.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

EcoRI.9273:

Currently as long as you have 1 guard,1ele,1thief,1warrior, dungeons will be fast regardless of what you bring as a 5th. Yes necros will be slower than everything else but by how much? Probably less than 10 seconds in a casual run compared to the other 2nd tier classes(mes,ranger,engi). And probably 30seconds compared to a second ele. A large part of dungeons in todays meta is really just running from point A to point B. DPS is hardly a huge factor as most of you think.

TL:DR necros are viable to bring to casual runs. Gimmick allows necros to be viable in record runs.

Do you really believe that all of the people (or at least most of them) complaining about Necros not being viable are doing so because it’s not viable in a record run? And especially ones that actually have the “meta shell” of the 1 Guard/1 Ele/1 Thief/1 Warrior?

While there are many irrelevant complaints towards the problems that necros have, as there are always people who strictly want to see their class be on top and don’t care about anything else, a fair amount of the complaints are done from people who want a good enough reason to log onto their Necro for serious-ish play. They aren’t the people that will ever do a speed run in real terms (only a pale shade of what is actually done), they’re the people who will just PUG up a dungeon and go from there. Their goal? Not to get banned (and while I’ve never actually seen it happen in my hundreds of runs, I’ve never played one of the classes that it would be a problem in), and to be a indisputable part of a team in terms of being relevant.

And you’re right about them being fine in a casual setting. It’s why I’ve never banned the thousands of Necros that I’ve seen in dungeon runs (the record for that being three Necros on a single team, with the other not-me person being a Ranger). However, that doesn’t change the perception of the class, nor does it change the fact that they’re the only class that doesn’t fill a relevant role in any dungeon composition. In this game, the meta is perception, and Necros are easily in the worst spot as is.

I don’t know what to say, there really is no meta in pugging. It is all over the place. If you are talking about the “berserkers only or I kick” pugs in LFG, those guys are usually pretty bad at the game and are just sheeps that try to copy what Nike runs on stream.

I think the fact that necros are the worst of the 8 classes, this makes good players more likely to not want to play them. What then happens is the reputation of necros is pretty much soiled by alot bad players playing them. I know for the longest time I hated thiefs and thought they were total garbage because of the players running them in pugs.(I still hate thiefs in pugs more than I hate necros.)

Windsagio.1340:

Let’s be frank though, it’s just a ‘thing’. Situation for necros is not nearly as bad as people let on, but it’s become accepted common knowledge that they’re worthless.

They are not worthless, but there is just too many thing going against them. Limited cleave, one of the worth dps, limited support, etc. Engineer and Ranger are not meta either, but at least they have higher than average dps and both have something useless. Engineer give a high amount of vulnerability and can stack might/stack stealth if they need to. Ranger can give respectable burst of vulnerability and spotter/frost spirit.

Necor isn’t worthless, but it’s the least useful profession by a good margin.

EcoRI.9273:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

EcoRI.9273:

Currently as long as you have 1 guard,1ele,1thief,1warrior, dungeons will be fast regardless of what you bring as a 5th. Yes necros will be slower than everything else but by how much? Probably less than 10 seconds in a casual run compared to the other 2nd tier classes(mes,ranger,engi). And probably 30seconds compared to a second ele. A large part of dungeons in todays meta is really just running from point A to point B. DPS is hardly a huge factor as most of you think.

TL:DR necros are viable to bring to casual runs. Gimmick allows necros to be viable in record runs.

Do you really believe that all of the people (or at least most of them) complaining about Necros not being viable are doing so because it’s not viable in a record run? And especially ones that actually have the “meta shell” of the 1 Guard/1 Ele/1 Thief/1 Warrior?

While there are many irrelevant complaints towards the problems that necros have, as there are always people who strictly want to see their class be on top and don’t care about anything else, a fair amount of the complaints are done from people who want a good enough reason to log onto their Necro for serious-ish play. They aren’t the people that will ever do a speed run in real terms (only a pale shade of what is actually done), they’re the people who will just PUG up a dungeon and go from there. Their goal? Not to get banned (and while I’ve never actually seen it happen in my hundreds of runs, I’ve never played one of the classes that it would be a problem in), and to be a indisputable part of a team in terms of being relevant.

And you’re right about them being fine in a casual setting. It’s why I’ve never banned the thousands of Necros that I’ve seen in dungeon runs (the record for that being three Necros on a single team, with the other not-me person being a Ranger). However, that doesn’t change the perception of the class, nor does it change the fact that they’re the only class that doesn’t fill a relevant role in any dungeon composition. In this game, the meta is perception, and Necros are easily in the worst spot as is.

I don’t know what to say, there really is no meta in pugging. It is all over the place. If you are talking about the “berserkers only or I kick” pugs in LFG, those guys are usually pretty bad at the game and are just sheeps that try to copy what Nike runs on stream.

I think the fact that necros are the worst of the 8 classes, this makes good players more likely to not want to play them. What then happens is the reputation of necros is pretty much soiled by alot bad players playing them. I know for the longest time I hated thiefs and thought they were total garbage because of the players running them in pugs.(I still hate thiefs in pugs more than I hate necros.)

On EU necros get kicked from regular groups that dont advertise specific stuff. Theres almost no tolerance left for the class anymore.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

The whole point of giving necromancer shouts was to give the class group buffs it desperately lacked. So they get damaging shouts instead. Lol.

Was it? I didn’t see Anet say that was the purpose of shouts.

keep in mind they didnt say shouts would have no team utility, simply they are more focused on dmg than other shouts, which currently do no dmg, so its not hard to achieve that

Obtena.7952:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

The whole point of giving necromancer shouts was to give the class group buffs it desperately lacked. So they get damaging shouts instead. Lol.

Was it? I didn’t see Anet say that was the purpose of shouts.

The whole point in the minds of players who were discussing it.

honestly i think necros main problems lie in the core stuff, not so much the elite spec

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Obtena.7952:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

The whole point of giving necromancer shouts was to give the class group buffs it desperately lacked. So they get damaging shouts instead. Lol.

Was it? I didn’t see Anet say that was the purpose of shouts.

The whole point in the minds of players who were discussing it.

Yes, so it’s only the whole point in the minds of imaginative players that are hoping for class group buffs, which kind of makes it not the whole point but people’s imagination.

If necro’s got a problem, it’s not because of Reaper and it’s not likely that a single spec or a few new skills are going to address it either if it’s that significant.

Lindbur.2537:

It looks to me that all the supportive abilities went to mesmers instead.

In exchange for only 2 new skills on a shield vs. 5 and an entire chronomancer traitline filled with PvP centric traits.

In you guys opinion, what kind of damage/debuffs/special would they need to put on the shouts to make them meaningful?

Shouts that grants magic find too all your party members. BOOM! must have for casual runs.

Windsagio.1340:

In you guys opinion, what kind of damage/debuffs/special would they need to put on the shouts to make them meaningful?

truth is, they cant really get there with classic buffs anyhow, other classes already large bonuses to the stats people are looking for.

they would need something unique and new, but i say that overall thats a dead end. Changes in encounter design and boss mechanics are a bigger deal for what necros bring to the table.

Vampiric shout, allies gain lifesteal on hit for the next 10 seconds.

Windsagio.1340:

In you guys opinion, what kind of damage/debuffs/special would they need to put on the shouts to make them meaningful?

Something along the lines of reducing mobs armour (different to vuln). Unique effects. Or just make them really strong for damage and debuff conditions applied. So even if they arent anything especially unique they make up for it in raw power.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

In you guys opinion, what kind of damage/debuffs/special would they need to put on the shouts to make them meaningful?

Something along the lines of reducing mobs armour (different to vuln). Unique effects. Or just make them really strong for damage and debuff conditions applied. So even if they arent anything especially unique they make up for it in raw power.

My immediate thoughts I admit were long chill/slows

Windsagio.1340:

In you guys opinion, what kind of damage/debuffs/special would they need to put on the shouts to make them meaningful?

An AOE damage buff multiplier.

Unblockable attacks.

Lowish cooldown shout with a projectile reflect on it (similar to the Air Blast on engi FT) could pair it with a knockback or damage. Ideally 20ish second cooldown but goes down with every projectile or enemy it hits (they said the cooldown would work like that didn’t they?)

Jerus.4350:

Lowish cooldown shout with a projectile reflect on it (similar to the Air Blast on engi FT) could pair it with a knockback or damage. Ideally 20ish second cooldown but goes down with every projectile or enemy it hits (they said the cooldown would work like that didn’t they?)

Yeah, they def. did (on the cooldowns).

… random thought, something you’re discussing using that new shockwave tech they were hyping so much when they did the Rev class description.
.

Yeah that could be cool, any type of reflect or even projectile absorption would be solid.

not that I want to set us up for dissapointment of course ><

Yeah i would love a reflect shout. Im just not optimistic. They have refused to give necro even a slight help with the core specs so its kind of hard to have faith in anything at this point.

spoj.9672:

Yeah i would love a reflect shout. Im just not optimistic. They have refused to give necro even a slight help with the core specs so its kind of hard to have faith in anything at this point.

Honestly though, that’s kind of a weird position. It’s not like they have a grudge against the class.

Erm its hard to believe that with how things have been for the past 2.5 years.

It’s hard to believe that any developer would decide to purposefully sabotage part of their work, which is what people are suggesting is happening to Necros in many places.

Windsagio.1340:

In you guys opinion, what kind of damage/debuffs/special would they need to put on the shouts to make them meaningful?

I posted this thread.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Thoughts-Sacrifice-Attrition-for-Support/first#post5014102

That sort of went into some specifics of what I thought about Necromancer support. Of course wasn’t received very well by the posters but the general idea was there.

To summarize:

- Going back to various GW1 style Necromancer skills of self sacrifice for amplification, turning the health pool and life force as both a resource pool and measurement of potency
- “Spectral Bonds” that encouraged focus fire and timing for different bonuses based on what is suitable for the encounter like huge party wide life steal or debuff application
- Partywide lifesteal
- The ability to give your teamates the absorption mechanic of Death Shroud, some people complained that the reason Necromancer doesn’t get a lot of pretty fireworks is because of Death Shroud, Okay, so let’s give it to everyone in our Party!

So to basically turn the GW2 Necromancer into more of something parallel to the GW1 Necromancer but in our current framework. Necros were pretty awesome in PvE back in the day so why not.

I think the only part of the game wherein necromancers are really bad is dungeons. Anet doesn’t care about dungeons, so maybe they don’t even see a problem? Necros can play decently in pvp, wvw, and open world.

Open world isnt really an arguement because everything is fine in open world. Necros are good in WvW zergs (Impressive!). They are not good anywhere else.

A class that lacks the key features of the games combat system is a big design oversight. By key features i mean finishers, active defence and meaningful group interaction of any kind. And its no wonder the class is bad in so many areas when they have stuck to their design philosophy so strictly.

Thats not even mentioning the fact that the necros own class mechanic hard counters the entire blood magic trait line and signets. And what about the poor alternative to active defence (DS)? It doesnt work properly as defence in most situations and with no alternatives it creates a huge amount of problems for the class and restricts balance. In extreme situations DS + active defence could be too strong. But in most situations just DS is too weak. Balancing on unrealistic extremes for necro is something anet does too often.

These are all issues that have been discussed extensively for the past 2 years. No effort has been made to fix them. Weve had bandaid buffs we didnt ask for (dhuumfire). Theres a major disconnect between the players and the devs. And theres countless more issues that i couldnt possibly fit in a single post so i will leave it at that.

/end rant

tl;dr
We have good reasons to doubt anets intentions for the necro.

no, seriously. I don’t wanna be duelling here, but that’s a pretty heavy persecution complex.

Possibly they’re not designing to meet your specific needs as a speedrun/dungeon person, and there are some core issues that necros have with how the dungeon scene involved, but saying you ‘doubt their intentions’ is really far left field.

The core issues i outlined have nothing to do with dungeons or speedruns. They are core issues that effect multiple gametypes.

The game is an action reflex based game where active defence is a core part of defence. Necro doesnt have any any active defence and DS does not scale (important in PvP) or work as reliable defence on bosses.

The game is about teamwork and group interaction. A major feature of that is the combo field and finisher system. Why does one class have a severe lack of finishers?

How is acceptible that a class mechanic hard counters an entire traitline and set of utilities?

These are issues that players that dont even PvE have been complaining about. Its not just me or other PvE players. You could read all the topics in the necro subforum over the last 2 years and see that.

And im not persecuting them. Im saying i dont trust them. Theres a clear disconnect which hasnt been resolved.

And i dont usually like to mention this. But other players have pointed out a lack of dev enthusiam when presenting necro stuff in the past. Which makes you wonder…

Windsagio.1340:

Possibly they’re not designing to meet your specific needs as a speedrun/dungeon person, and there are some core issues that necros have with how the dungeon scene involved, but saying you ‘doubt their intentions’ is really far left field.

As someone who plays every game mode a metric boatload, I can safely say that spoj is in the right. ANet is desynced with what a Necromancer needs to actively participate in a meaningful way in all formats. Even in top-end PvP the #1 NA team essentially builds their comp and strategies around carrying the Necro and rotating to guard the Necro just so it can utilize its primary burst (which is, admittedly, great). That strategy lost them the last WTS against a better comp anyway. The only reason they win in NA is because they’re the best at rotation and has nothing to do with their Necromancer.

I don’t think we need to be persecuting ANet or whatever, and the class is very fun to play, but in meaningful content it has extremely severe shortcomings compared to every other class and ANet has, admittedly, done little to level the playing field.

Exactly as spoj said. It’s not out of left field when they’ve ignored issues for years. It seems quite clear they don’t care enough to address the issues of necro. In PVP DS is quite nice, because PVP is a game mode where mitigation is actually powerful, but even there avoiding an immob or CC can be absolutely key to survival, and necros simply lack evasion thanks to a focus on mitigation through DS.

This issue is certainly especially prevalent in PVE because of the design of PVE where you have large hits that you are meant to avoid, and that’s not limited to dungeons just more serious there.

Even WvW necros have an issue here. Evading through bursts is absolutely key, even a fully charged DS followed by Plague can’t get you through a well timed Well Bomb, especially if they time some immobs in there. This is why Energy sigils are a must. And we’re talking Necro’s strongest game mode here.

Mesmer has similar issues with the impracticality of their mechanics, but they did a great job of at least making an attempt to address them with chronomancer (more focus on shatters, 1s of invuln on phantasm creation).

If they had a trait such as “1s evade frame while entering (and/or leaving) DS” you’d see that similar attempt to address the issue. Of course we can’t say that type of thing won’t happen, but you can’t fault someone for not believing it will happen.

Necro simply goes against the design of the game with it’s focus on mitigation vs avoidance, and thanks to it’s strength in PVP situations, which seems to be almost their only focus on balancing of the game (screw that turret change!) we’ve seen little to address these kinds of issues.

I think the thought that they either don’t care, or don’t understand to be a reasonable. I have full faith that the devs are trying to create a good game, and they’re intelligent people, but that doesn’t mean they’re not human and prone to mistakes or negligence.

Could extra avoidance plus the double health bar make necros too powerful in PVP, sure, but that could also be addressed. Maybe something like halving the HP in DS while doing the same for it’s natural decay rate. Making it much less powerful as a mitigation tool to offset the increase in avoidance. But, hey, I’m sure spoj and all the necros have more than covered any possible option to address such issues, it’s just a matter of ANet following through on something, which again returns to why people simply lack faith in them, because nothing has happened.

They’ve ‘ignored’ (to be read as ‘Not addressed in ways forumgoers like’) a huge number of things over the years, Necro hasn’t particularly stood out in this regard.

Classes simply haven’t changed that greatly over the life of the game (with a few bold exceptions). They’ve been tweaked up and down a few times, and there have been very few big things (notably some of the new trait 13’s), but that’s about it.

.This is one of those things where people keep telling each other something and as the snake eats it’s own tail, the story grows.