Guild Wars 2

Rising Dusk.2408:

I don’t think we need to be persecuting ANet or whatever, and the class is very fun to play, …

Anyone ever consider that THIS is actually the real goal that Anet wants to achieve?
I get there are deficiencies but if Anet wants the class to be fun, it could be said Necro is successful as a profession. I’m not sure we should be so assuming with what Anet thinks the professions should do or be.

It’s no coincidence that the classes with access to AI outside guardians ended up with the most issues. Mesmer is a gimmick class with crap practical DPS (the clones die to a sneeze in a game full of cleave/aoe, and phantasm ramp up is rendered useless with phantasms despawning on mob death), ranger has a decent potential but in practice due to mainhand sword’s animation lock you are limited in various ways including max meleeing and ranger cleave/aoe is pure garbage (the second chain of their auto does not cleave, and all pets but drakes do not cleave and what cleave rangers have is max 3 targets) not to mention part of their DPS doesn’t even scale with ascended upgrades (the pet).

And necromancer is all of that taken to the extreme. Unlike mesmer’s garbage ethereal fields and leap finishers, necromancer doesn’t even have finishers and the fields are just as bad as the ethereal fields. And he doesn’t have the group buffing aspect of the ranger and his AI options are even worse than ranger and mesmer AI, which is a pretty bad thing to say because ALL AI in this game is terrible and weak due to lack of aoe protection and for some reason anet thinks it’s good design to put pets on the aggro table so a boss or some trash can randomly turn around and kill them immediately, putting them in 20-50 sec cd’s.

It’s like they looked at ele, guardian, and thief and decided to give them EVEN MORE OF WHAT THEY ALREADY HAD PLENTY OF. More support/group protect for guardians, MORE damage for thieves who already leave other classes other than ele trailing, ele is probably gonna get even more AoE and group utility.

And then the other classes get gimmicks. They can be powerful gimmicks, mind you, but it’s pretty crappy being the class that’s brought only for a couple of utility slots on a long cooldown rather than because your classes’ weaponskills are pretty kitten good and you excel at damage.

But they’ve never cared. Guardian, ele and warrior have been meta in all three formats for a while, and as a dominant force that every team MUST have, they’ve let the situation fester for years.

Why? Because balancing classes doesn’t get them gem store purchases, and neither do dungeons for that matter so for their time and assets spent it’s far more efficient to pour effort into pvp since a new pvp map is less work and lasts longer (a key feature of pvp, it’s player created entertainment), or their gem store gimmicks.

Half-knowledge is many times more dangerous than no knowledge at all

Windsagio.1340:

They’ve ‘ignored’ (to be read as ‘Not addressed in ways forumgoers like’) a huge number of things over the years, Necro hasn’t particularly stood out in this regard.

Classes simply haven’t changed that greatly over the life of the game (with a few bold exceptions). They’ve been tweaked up and down a few times, and there have been very few big things (notably some of the new trait 13’s), but that’s about it.

.This is one of those things where people keep telling each other something and as the snake eats it’s own tail, the story grows.

And this demonstrates why me and you can’t ever see quite eye to eye even if I enjoy our conversations

I simply can’t forgive them ignoring the fact that they designed this profession counter to their overall design (active defense being king). That’s not even to mention it’s lack of group synergy, and mediocre damage even in it’s top builds.

Obtena.7952:

Rising Dusk.2408:

I don’t think we need to be persecuting ANet or whatever, and the class is very fun to play, …

Anyone ever consider that THIS is actually the real goal that Anet wants to achieve?
I get there are deficiencies but if Anet wants the class to be fun, it could be said Necro is successful as a profession. I’m not sure we should be so assuming with what Anet thinks the professions should do or be.

You seem to forget that they have been trying to push esports and play equality, stronghold is their next attempt at getting popularity in the competitive scene, also last I recall they want to address clear dominances in our current proxy with the next set of PvE content as clearly stated by Colin Johanson himself.

You can’t just design something for the sake of fun and not think about the numbers when one of your core objectives is to push Esports, it does not make sense. Yes their esports push is in regards to sPvP and not dungeons but that doesn’t change the fact that they also need to be thinking about the numbers for the sake of their goal as a whole.

If they just designed things for the sake of fun, we wouldn’t soon be facing “balance” adjustments to ice bow and lightning hammer neither would we have a balance team to begin with.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

They’ve ‘ignored’ (to be read as ‘Not addressed in ways forumgoers like’) a huge number of things over the years, Necro hasn’t particularly stood out in this regard.

Classes simply haven’t changed that greatly over the life of the game (with a few bold exceptions). They’ve been tweaked up and down a few times, and there have been very few big things (notably some of the new trait 13’s), but that’s about it.

.This is one of those things where people keep telling each other something and as the snake eats it’s own tail, the story grows.

And this demonstrates why me and you can’t ever see quite eye to eye even if I enjoy our conversations

I simply can’t forgive them ignoring the fact that they designed this profession counter to their overall design (active defense being king). That’s not even to mention it’s lack of group synergy, and mediocre damage even in it’s top builds.

because they didnt envision active defense being king.

there are whole traitlines armor sets and styles built on toughness because they thought it would matter.

which, overall, i dont think they thought about it that deeply. They were doing a lot of new stuff, they couldnt see that far ahead.

Aye, true, initially they may not have thought out the power of it. But, there’s no denying it’s power now. And they’re ignoring an entire profession by not adjusting for it.

MMOs and all video games are pretty darn complex, it’s no surprise that people wouldn’t understand the full complexity while it’s not thoroughly tested. But it’s no excuse to ignore it once it’s fully fleshed out. Their lack of foresight isn’t anything to be ashamed of, their lack of follow through though is disappointing to say the least.

GW2 needs enchantments and hexes. Especially necros do.

Yes, they need to bring hexes back. Then we will have something we are good at. Bring back the classic Spiteful Spirit, and we’ll see a lot less zerking too.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes, they need to bring hexes back. Then we will have something we are good at. Bring back the classic Spiteful Spirit, and we’ll see a lot less zerking too.

Unfortunately very few creatures actually attack fast enough for SS to be relevant, or the confusion condition if we’re talking strictly GW2 current mechanics.

New confusion ticks low damage every second and spikes on skill use. There are definite ways to make spiteful spirit work. But looks like they are keeping it retal based. Its now axe 3 on DS entry.

I would be more interested in reckless haste. And a trait to make confusion use power to calculate damage while also giving us confusion.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/The-Reaper-and-the-Not-so-great-sword/first#content

Was kinda amusing.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes, they need to bring hexes back. Then we will have something we are good at. Bring back the classic Spiteful Spirit, and we’ll see a lot less zerking too.

Unfortunately very few creatures actually attack fast enough for SS to be relevant, or the confusion condition if we’re talking strictly GW2 current mechanics.

Which again could change if the hot content is well designed..

Hexes, or at least debuffs are where necro should shine. Offensive version of a guardian.
Which it sounds like is what anet is trying to do with reaper.

Plenty of blinds/chills/vuln/slow would make reaper quite desirable. It might be a little lower on dps – but could make “challenging content” significantly easier.

Again, hinges on content that is challenging.

Well, for an active game like GW2 (different by a long shot from GW1) single target DoT/debuff over time style skills aren’t particularly engaging. This is especially true given GW2’s skill bar style where you only get 3 utilities, limiting possible enchantment/hex interaction. I would be extremely surprised if ANet ever brought back actual hexes, interactions with hexes, or things like it. The closest things we have are skills like Binding Blade, Tainted Shackles, and Impale, all of which are short-lived or AOE with other factors to keep them interesting. I don’t doubt they could make hexes fairly interesting, I just don’t see them pursuing it given how much effort they’ve put into their current combat direction.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

The whole point of giving necromancer shouts was to give the class group buffs it desperately lacked. So they get damaging shouts instead. Lol.

BUT you can summon jagged horrors.
Happy?

Lol, it looks like such a bore. If there’s one thing I hate in characters I make, it’s the slow attacks… guess no necro for me. I detest slow stuff.

Jagged Horrors of all things. Those useless weak minions, who just like all other minions enjoy running away from enemies, or standing around and do nothing.

You can complain about the shouts but its not like people are in love with the Dragonhunter’s traps. Only one of those traps will see pve play, and I’ll bet at least one of the necro shouts is worth using. Much QQ about nothing.

The whine is pretty justified in this context.

Guardians are already the best defensive party supporter so a few underwhelming skills won’t change its status whereas a necro that is pretty the most selfish profession that doesn’t have any kind of gimmick that would make it desired in PvE would benefit hugely if they got a few good shouts that are beneficial to your party aswel.

The shouts were never going to be better than Guardian defensive support. Or better than warrior banners. Or better than Shadow Refuge. Or better than Ice Bow/GoS. If your expectation was to replace any of those roles you had unrealistic expectations.

Any frankly, yes, it is unjustified whining since they haven’t showed all the shouts or all the traits. That’s pretty much the definition of unjustified.

/sigh
Boooooooring.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

They’ve ‘ignored’ (to be read as ‘Not addressed in ways forumgoers like’) a huge number of things over the years, Necro hasn’t particularly stood out in this regard.

Classes simply haven’t changed that greatly over the life of the game (with a few bold exceptions). They’ve been tweaked up and down a few times, and there have been very few big things (notably some of the new trait 13’s), but that’s about it.

.This is one of those things where people keep telling each other something and as the snake eats it’s own tail, the story grows.

And this demonstrates why me and you can’t ever see quite eye to eye even if I enjoy our conversations

I simply can’t forgive them ignoring the fact that they designed this profession counter to their overall design (active defense being king). That’s not even to mention it’s lack of group synergy, and mediocre damage even in it’s top builds.

Us not seeing eye to eye is what makes the discusisons interesting and productive

Only if you can actually give a decent counter arguement or reason. Sadly you seem to fail at that most of the time.

spoj.9672:

Only if you can actually give a decent counter arguement or reason. Sadly you seem to fail at that most of the time.

Right because saying “anet hates necros” is a logical/reasonable argument.

Literally the worst part of the necro class are all the negative forum posters. If it’s fun to play that should be what matters. If you don’t like it, play another class but don’t get kittenty because the developers don’t want to do something 100% the way you would like.

spoj.9672:

Only if you can actually give a decent counter arguement or reason. Sadly you seem to fail at that most of the time.

My position on this would be to carry on about the narrowness of vision. You not liking my answers doesn’t mean they’re not good, which is a pretty important distinction.

Tobias Steele.2071:

spoj.9672:

Only if you can actually give a decent counter arguement or reason. Sadly you seem to fail at that most of the time.

Right because saying “anet hates necros” is a logical/reasonable argument.

Literally the worst part of the necro class are all the negative forum posters. If it’s fun to play that should be what matters. If you don’t like it, play another class but don’t get kittenty because the developers don’t want to do something 100% the way you would like.

I never said they hate necros.

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Only if you can actually give a decent counter arguement or reason. Sadly you seem to fail at that most of the time.

My position on this would be to carry on about the narrowness of vision. You not liking my answers doesn’t mean they’re not good, which is a pretty important distinction.

You didnt counter my arguement. You just accused me of persecution and tried to justify their balance decisions by mentioning a completely unrelated and untrue statement that the other classes have barely changed aswell.

NikeEU.7690:

The shouts were never going to be better than Guardian defensive support. Or better than warrior banners. Or better than Shadow Refuge. Or better than Ice Bow/GoS. If your expectation was to replace any of those roles you had unrealistic expectations.

Actually I thought they would make the shouts as strong as warrior group support. That made the most sense to me. the only spot in the meta that can really be taken by another class is the Warriors .

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Only if you can actually give a decent counter arguement or reason. Sadly you seem to fail at that most of the time.

My position on this would be to carry on about the narrowness of vision. You not liking my answers doesn’t mean they’re not good, which is a pretty important distinction.

You didnt counter my arguement. You just accused me of persecution and tried to justify their balance decisions by mentioning a completely unrelated and untrue statement that the other classes have barely changed aswell.

So lets hit this again. Maybe I misunderstood your argument.

My essential position is that Anet, and many players, have a different set of criteria than the dungeon does, and that (as the designer said) forums aren’t very trustworthy as they’re powered by pure concentrated tears.

In the specific of our discussion, probably communication breakdown, but..

spoj.9672:

Yeah i would love a reflect shout. Im just not optimistic. They have refused to give necro even a slight help with the core specs so its kind of hard to have faith in anything at this point.

spoj.9672:

Erm its hard to believe that with how things have been for the past 2.5 years.

spoj.9672:

tl;dr
We have good reasons to doubt anets intentions for the necro.

(bold and italics mine)

Sure SEEMS to read like a persecution complex, “doubt anets intentions” is pretty clear

Windsagio.1340:

My essential position is that Anet, and many players, have a different set of criteria than the dungeon does, and that (as the designer said) forums aren’t very trustworthy as they’re powered by pure concentrated tears.

And this is completely untrue. Always love it when people fall back to the forums arent trustworthy arguement. Almost the entire necro community (PvE, PvP and WvW) all agree on the same problems and similar solutions to fix those. Anet has ignored our concerns and never attempted to address them because they have stuck to their original design philosophy despite it not working with games core systems. This is why there is no faith. Because its been left in a terrible state for so long. And things like the lupi auto attack change make it even worse by further alienating one single class.

Anet have been stubborn about necro for a long time. Why should i think they have suddenly changed their ideas. The reaper certainly doesnt support that they have.

What i mean by giving a proper counter arguement is give me reasons why the necro should have these major disadvantages which contradict the games core systems. With no compensation and with no other class suffering from the same issues.

And that’s the problem. I don’t trust the community with design. It’s a hopeless concept, especially when we get to echochamber downplays.

You think you (or if you prefer ‘the community’) know(s) better and Anet is just being stubborn. This simply isn’t as likely as the idea that the community (or you) don’t have a holistic view of the class or of the design goals.

To answer your question: The disadvantages exist, they’re not nearly as meaningful as you feel they are, and the goals for the class aren’t what yours would be. A game designer has different priorities than a player.

“Stream got chilled!”

still can’t watch stream, but following updates. 100% chill uptime from GS autoattack is at least something unique to offer.

Edit: And now we can quit wrangling at each other and actually think about what the abilities are going to mean in dungeons

I just saw the numbers for the Necro GS.

The auto-attack hit for 646 with a cast time of 0.75sec. It seem high but keep in mind that all the numbers they gave us from the expansion are high. Just to give you an exemple, the auto-attack of the Dragon Hunter’s longbow is 574 with the exact same cast time.

The GS #2 which is suppose to be the hard hitter does 1520 damage with a cast time of 1.25 sec and a cooldown of 8 second. The Dragon hunter Longbow #2 hit for 1641 dmg have a cast time of 0.75 and a cooldown of 4 second.

It’s soon to have a jugment on these number since it highly dependent of what are the stats when they took those picture. We’ll have to wait to test the actual coefficient, but unless they did the lifestream on a zerker Dragon hunter and a sentinel Reaper, these number seem pretty bad for PvE.

Not that high direct damage and focus on chill, no damage modifier from the new trait line. It seem that the Reaper is suppose to be PvP oriented and won’t help the necromancer at all in PvE dungeon. Maybe the Reaper’s Shroud and shout will make a difference?

I’m pretty confident that they’re gonna nerf those DH longbow numbers though. Those were stupid :p

So yeah looks brutal for PvP, with the cooldown scaling thing (maxes at 35%) you have pretty good return on shouts in group combat — looks really terrible single target in general though.

Edit: If the effect on “NOTHING CAN SAVE YOU!” were shared, that’d be suuuuch a good group skill.

Shouts look weak, gonna have alot of vuln though, chilled will be a decent debuff for trash, no unique group buffs or dmg modifier which is bad, it could have been worse but also better. Looks like it will be fun to play, but won’t really shake anything up.

Thaddeus.4891:

I just saw the numbers for the Necro GS.

The auto-attack hit for 646 with a cast time of 0.75sec. It seem high but keep in mind that all the numbers they gave us from the expansion are high. Just to give you an exemple, the auto-attack of the Dragon Hunter’s longbow is 574 with the exact same cast time.

The GS #2 which is suppose to be the hard hitter does 1520 damage with a cast time of 1.25 sec and a cooldown of 8 second. The Dragon hunter Longbow #2 hit for 1641 dmg have a cast time of 0.75 and a cooldown of 4 second.

It’s soon to have a jugment on these number since it highly dependent of what are the stats when they took those picture. We’ll have to wait to test the actual coefficient, but unless they did the lifestream on a zerker Dragon hunter and a soldier Reaper, these number seem pretty bad for PvE.

Not that high direct damage and focus on chill, no damage modifier from the new trait line. It seem that the Reaper is suppose to be PvP oriented and won’t help the necromancer at all in PvE dungeon. Maybe the Reaper’s Shroud and shout will make a difference?

it has no cooldown under 50% though, and true shot has a movement lockdown. Also the 646 646 760, if this is using the same amulets, it would end up being around 300 300 370 for AA.

It seems really powerful honestly.
the real problem i see with the set is the defense is pretty low.
The shouts arent too useful against single enemies.

fun factor though looks way higher for me personally.

Looks really strong and fun. And some of those traits are really nice. Like the might when hitting chilled foes (gonna be good for soloing).

The biggest things are the sustain and stuff working through DS. The shouts are incredibly disappointing in PvE. Except for the heal. The elite could be good if the cast time was a bit shorter.

But it still comes down to damage numbers. I really like the DS attack speed and the GS skills though.

spoj.9672:

Looks really strong and fun. And some of those traits are really nice. Like the might when hitting chilled foes (gonna be good for soloing).

The biggest things are the sustain and stuff working through DS. The shouts are incredibly disappointing in PvE. Except for the heal. The elite could be good if the cast time was a bit shorter.

But it still comes down to damage numbers. I really like the DS attack speed and the GS skills though.

well the shouts are really super strong on multiple targets, especially with chilling nova combined with vulnerability crit stacking.

the crit stacking alone could be pretty interesting for armor stat choices, if they had some good power ferocity stuff, but all you can get is vit.
power ferocity healing might be interesting if it existed.

I don’t get their obsession with making necro shouts garbage against single target or fewer enemies.

It’s not like they make warrior/guardian shouts less effective by ally hit.

Looking at the published shouts, they’re barely a step above ranger shouts (absolutely worthless). And the cast times, once again PvP garbage taking a dump all ove PvE viability.

Let’s be honest, the last thing you need is skills that are good for trash clearing but bad at bosses. Bosses are what matter.

I’m also highly unimpressed with most of the traits, they seem really niche and PvP centric, same thing that happened to mesmers.

Oh, guess what, the dev working for mesmer and necro is the same guy that apparently only cares for WvW/sPvP and thinks of PvE as an afterthought.

I’m just gonna hope they did better with the Druid, I’m sick of playing ele/guardian/thief/warrior. I’ll just stick to a class with a different dev because Robert Gee really isn’t doing it for me as a PvE player.

Zenith.7301:

I don’t get their obsession with making necro shouts garbage against single target or fewer enemies.

It’s not like they make warrior/guardian shouts less effective by ally hit.

Looking at the published shouts, they’re barely a step above ranger shouts (absolutely worthless). And the cast times, once again PvP garbage taking a dump all ove PvE viability.

Let’s be honest, the last thing you need is skills that are good for trash clearing but bad at bosses. Bosses are what matter.

I’m also highly unimpressed with most of the traits, they seem really niche and PvP centric, same thing that happened to mesmers.

Oh, guess what, the dev working for mesmer and necro is the same guy that apparently only cares for WvW/sPvP and thinks of PvE as an afterthought.

Kinda to be expected, Anet has never given up on the whole e-sports thing. The whole time I was watching I was thinking, “yeah, pretty good for pvp, but not that great for pve”

I can think of a number of places where the trash are much harder than the boss (especially if you include trash that’s normally skipped)

Also seriously, those shouts aren’t so bad as all that. They’re many steps up from ranger shouts.

Edit: And you’re kind of wrong about scaling; all shouts scale effectiveness by number of targets. These just have a special case that they get some legit pretty nice bonuses in addition.

The thing is the wells still do more than the shouts for groups of trash. And the shouts are terrible for single targets. You would use 1 shout max with 2 wells for trash pulls. If the shouts had blast finishers they might be a little more favourable.

spoj.9672:

The thing is the wells still do more than the shouts for groups of trash. And the shouts are terrible for single targets. You would use 1 shout max with 2 wells for trash pulls. If the shouts had blast finishers they might be a little more favourable.

Man, wouldn’t that be great?

Hey anet! Put blast finishers on Necro shouts! Especially with the cast times, it solves so many problems!

(Just to be clear, because sometimes internest are hard to read. I’d seriously love and be excited seeing that buff)

I see that.
I suppose that must be it – the role of the class, how it’s been designed by anet.
Selfish, leeching from its other partymates – benefitting yet not contributing; a parasite getting health when eles and guards give it boons; might only to itself….
/disgusted noise

I can’t do it. I hate selfish classes, I hate them. I hope some necros do find it enjoyable, though. It looks like it could be fun to play. The animations are impressive.
Sure play it for fun – just not on my a** – because I can’t see anything else good coming out of it in dungeons.

Give us a new sigil which gives +20% damage on chilled foes and perma chill becomes a requirement in the meta. ;>

Still raving, I take it… You should be revving. Duhuh—-ahem.
But sure, who knows…

spoj.9672:

The thing is the wells still do more than the shouts for groups of trash. And the shouts are terrible for single targets. You would use 1 shout max with 2 wells for trash pulls. If the shouts had blast finishers they might be a little more favourable.

yeah, but if you have that trait, you can basically chain shouts on groups.
35% reduction per group of 5,

this means 3 shouts on big groups recharges all shouts

so you can use the elite a lot, in large groups.
elite
suffer
you are all weaklings
heal shout
elite again

anyhow, i do think the shouts could be improved on your targeted enemy. While in groups they may be pretty good, alone they are really really weak
your soul is mine

deSade.9437:

I see that.
I suppose that must be it – the role of the class, how it’s been designed by anet.
Selfish, leeching from its other partymates – benefitting yet not contributing; a parasite getting health when eles and guards give it boons; might only to itself….
/disgusted noise

I can’t do it. I hate selfish classes, I hate them. I hope some necros do find it enjoyable, though. It looks like it could be fun to play. The animations are impressive.
Sure play it for fun – just not on my a** – because I can’t see anything else good coming out of it in dungeons.

its not that necros give nothing, its that the current encounter design doesnt favor dmg reduction on bosses.

they have good weakness, good chill, good fields for both, blinds, and they will help with sustains and heals (if they want to) but since most dmg is avoided, these things dont seem that big to players.

lets see how enemy behavior/encounter design changes in high end games, then we will see.

Oh yeah, and they probably need to mess with combo fields, most underperform except for blast.

I support the idea of chill sigil xd

Anyway, Reaper is going to be fine for soloing. I see a good trait variety – one that allows to get more healing sustain by sacrificing some dmg. Gonna help with the hardest encounters.

life steal on crit, on hit, bloodthirst, get health when you’re in ds and get boon (will get 2 might per ds aa swing if u take both traits o.o). some great combos. not to mention spite minors. its basically 2nd invi prec.
even now, necro can afk kill belka, but with lifestealing minions. reaper will be able to afk fight her without sacrificing much damage.

im still not sure if blood magic will be better than soul reaping. we’ll get enough critical chance via the master reaper trait, enough vuln via focus, gs and spite. curses is kitten so what’s left is blood magic and life siphons. with all these whirls and cleaves, they might actually be a substantial damage.