Guild Wars 2

tl;dr: Just a different way to view the casual/elite issue. Are you a romantic or a pragmatist? Mostly just me soapboxing.

This is actually a topic about mentalities that people hold. The popular view on people’s mentalities is the “casual vs. elite.” I kinda wanted to toss this idea out here and see what people think.

The idea of Superheroes vs. SWAT was sparked in my mind when talking with one of my guildies about clearing dungeons. He is one of the people who likes to kill everything in the dungeon. In a Guild run (the only kind he does) we usually agree before running whether it’s going to be a “kill everything run” or a “speed run”. When I asked him why he likes killing everything, he said, “When I go into a bad guy’s lair, I’m going in there to defeat all of the bad guys.”

First, I’d like to premise this by saying I’m not criticizing either group of people I’m about to describe. Also, I’d like to say that it’s not 2 distinct camps, but a spectrum that people can possess varying degrees of one side or the other.

I’d like to suggest that there are people who play this game to be “Superheroes”. After all, our characters can do really amazing things. Leap dozens of yards, teleport, cure poison by yelling at it, raise the dead. These people hold a romantic’s notion of the incredible abilities of their characters, and build their characters to help reinforce their ideals.

I feel like the romantic’s notion of a fight/dungeon crawl is to kick in the door, rush in and engage the bad guys on their home turf. Think comic books where the hero smashes through the window, the robbers shoot bullets but those bounce off the hero’s chest. People build “tank” and “support” characters because they believe they can do better in a fight protecting the soft squishy people. LOSing is an exploit because the game is meant to be played a certain way and LOSing violates that preconceived notion.

I’d like to suggest that there are people who play this game to be “SWAT”. Practicality, efficiency, maximizing gains, minimizing losses. When a SWAT team is required to clear a dangerous situation, they approach it with pragmatism, research and training. In real life, your teammates’ lives are on the line, in game, it’s your time and patience that is the price to pay.

I feel like the pragmatist’s notion of a fight/dungeon crawl is to approach each encounter from every aspect and select which one is the best for the situation as far as time/effort/cost/profit. Sometimes this even means choosing Not to engage a certain encounter. For a SWAT officer, a bad situation would be to have to go toe-to-toe with an equally armed enemy. You give yourself the advantage by taking cover in a fight.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with being either a Romanticist or a Pragmatist, or any part of the spectrum in-between. I do feel that trying to understand why clashes occur, why some people dislike a tactic while others think it’s acceptable is important. I also feel that it’s important for people to play with people whose playstyles align most closely with theirs because then they’ll be a lot happier. And of course assuming that you can’t (you need to PUG some people to fill out a group), having open communication to see where everyone stands so you can all agree on a group position when running a dungeon will minimize conflict as well.

DigitalKirin.9714:

LOSing is an exploit because the game is meant to be played a certain way and LOSing violates that preconceived notion.

You thought you could just sneak that in there, didn’t you?

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

DigitalKirin.9714:

LOSing is an exploit because the game is meant to be played a certain way and LOSing violates that preconceived notion.

You thought you could just sneak that in there, didn’t you?

LOL

The game is made up of 2 kinds of people. BHB’s and non BHBs. That is all. There are no superheros or swats. There are simply those who have the hurt within them, and those who dish the hurt out to the enemies.

So..let me get this straight.

If a mob is going to shoot me on the face…I am not intended to find cover and let him mutilate me?

btw, id like to ask how you know the developer’s intention of LoS strategies in general. It seems you personally know them and that they told you that general LoS strategies are definitely not intended and thus an exploit. I ask because I bet they thought of the idea since the obvious “no line of sight” message pops up when i aim a skill without..well..line of sight. Maybe they should equip mobs with 4-6.

The italics suggested to me that when he said LoSing is an exploit he was simply saying that’s how the “superheroes” feel, not his actual opinion.

Seriously you guys.

Thank you, colesy.

Most topics are about trash-killers complaining on trash-skippers. Rarely the other way around. Everyone has the choice to play either way with likeminded ppl. But most of the conflict arises when trash-killers are fixated on changing dungeons such that skipping is not possible and thereby the removing such choice.

Berry well then! o_o)-b

As to the OP, I applaud him for taking time to actually think about the issue. I like his analogy, too. I suppose one thing to consider is why it is people want to be SWAT or a superheroes. Another thing to consider is why it is people _don’t_want to be a SWAT or a superhero. It is there that things really become interesting.

The problem i see in the dungeon’s forum is that the allegedly hardcore guilds of this game spend more time trolling here than playing the game. I think this is because of the lack of endgame, the only true endgame in gw2 are the living stories but the so-called hardcore players refuse to do it because it makes then look casual.

ANet should give then more non-casual endgame stuff to do so they can stop trolling here. Seriously, you don’t see this kind of bad behavior from the hardcore pvp or wvw players in their foruns.

What’s a BHB?

http://youtu.be/9u0EL_u4nvw

blood red sociologist strikes again

I’ve seen in threads I haven’t posted in. Ergo, it isn’t directed at me. And yes, it is quite a bit more complicated than just partying with likeminded people.

Anyways my stance on trash-killing or trash-skipping has not changed since the earlier days. And while I skip trash more often than killing them, I do not have anything against either. I am against the removal of the choice to do either.

You think it is more complicated than what I said? By all means. However, my stance is not going to change.

did you guys know that los-ing is mentioned in the gw2 strategy guide?

@moss
That’s a bit of a foregone conclusion. When’s the last time you saw somebody change their stance in an internet debate?

I change my stance all the time

Wukunlin.8461:

I change my stance all the time

Wow, stances are for noobs. Shouts or gtfo

@Wun
Really?
I’m going to wait with baited breath for the next thread you’re posting in. :p

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Wukunlin.8461:

I change my stance all the time

Wow, stances are for noobs. Shouts or gtfo

but… but… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Focus

I really need to roll a warrior.

Teckos.1305:

did you guys know that los-ing is mentioned in the gw2 strategy guide?

There’s a strategy guide?

Boldy Hyther Belootle

Vox Hollow.2736:

@moss
That’s a bit of a foregone conclusion. When’s the last time you saw somebody change their stance in an internet debate?

how about when we all stopped jerking to war/guard/mes and now actually run classes on their own merits?

i’d change my stance on here a lot more if people would give me better arguments than play how you want.

Casmurro.9046:

The problem i see in the dungeon’s forum is that the allegedly hardcore guilds of this game spend more time trolling here than playing the game. I think this is because of the lack of endgame, the only true endgame in gw2 are the living stories but the so-called hardcore players refuse to do it because it makes then look casual.

Nah. There are a lot less posts on the weekend when we actually get to play a lot. During the week when we are bored at work and can’t play, we post here.

Uh oh, it’s this thread again, and I have no popcorn!

Casmurro.9046:

The problem i see in the dungeon’s forum is that the allegedly hardcore guilds of this game spend more time trolling here than playing the game. I think this is because of the lack of endgame, the only true endgame in gw2 are the living stories but the so-called hardcore players refuse to do it because it makes then look casual.

Imagine smashing pinata for hardcores.

Anyway, some of us, maybe even majority, are doing it but what can you do after you finish new TA story mode? Do you repeat story mode dungeons?

tl;dr;
I play how I want.

colesy.8490:

Vox Hollow.2736:

@moss
That’s a bit of a foregone conclusion. When’s the last time you saw somebody change their stance in an internet debate?

how about when we all stopped jerking to war/guard/mes and now actually run classes on their own merits?

I got kicked out of a pug yesterday because he only wanted hardcore elitest warriors and I was playing my litham ele

<.<
>.>

Vox Hollow.2736:

@Wun
Really?
I’m going to wait with baited breath for the next thread you’re posting in. :p

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guardian-PTV/first#post2984320

good read. thanks for sharing your views on it, OP.

Tree.3916:

tl;dr;
I play how I want.

More accurately:

If you want to play how you want, find like-minded people, because joining groups that have a different requirement than what you are providing is just going to cause conflict.

Also, if you find yourself in the minority in a group, it’s better to leave peaceably with an explanation than to stay in a group and suffer their presence and have them suffer yours.

coronaas.4362:

colesy.8490:

Vox Hollow.2736:

@moss
That’s a bit of a foregone conclusion. When’s the last time you saw somebody change their stance in an internet debate?

how about when we all stopped jerking to war/guard/mes and now actually run classes on their own merits?

I got kicked out of a pug yesterday because he only wanted hardcore elitest warriors and I was playing my litham ele

<.<
>.>

Pugs don’t count. I had a mesmer leave his own group earlier today because we had 2 guards and he wanted 1 guard, 3 warriors and him as a mesmer. lol.

While your basic descriptions here are very astute, ultimately this is a matter more for the devs than for the players.

The ones who DESIGN the dungeons are supposed to have a grasp of the different playstyles, and more importantly what is expected of the players, to beat them.

I am most certainly a romanticist in regards to your definitions here. I can respect the skill required to slip past an enemy in order to avoid them. But if the point of a dungeon is just to get to the end as fast as possible for loot, then you’re not really PLAYING the game at all.

You can argue this case a thousand different ways, but ultimately the devs have to decide what they want dungeon runs to be, and how many different choices we can potentially make.

Anyone who says dungeons aren’t supposed to be speed cleared is lying, we, as in humans, like to do everything quickly, that applies to everything, be it games or real life, do you move at 20 mph to enjoy the view and street signs and the people on your way to work which you’ve been to hundreds of times or do you try to get there as fast as possible so you’re not late?
Dungeons are the same thing, we’ve done a lot of dungeons a lot of time, we don’t do dungeons slowly with pvt gear while marvelling at each boss and mob’s mechanics and animation which we’ve seen a lot, we just do it as fast as possible.

was there so much whining about people doing speedclears in gw1?

Wukunlin.8461:

was there so much whining about people doing speedclears in gw1?

It got to a certain point in GW1, where pretty much the only vocal players still around were the speed clearers.

I imagine it’ll end up similar in this game.

Wukunlin.8461:

was there so much whining about people doing speedclears in gw1?

It was different in GW1. Of all the whining I heard back then, I never heard people say “you’re not playing the game” or “stacking mobs/using pull techniques is exploiting”.

It mostly boiled down to “Shadow Form is OP”, which was true, but most of them added some crappy arguments here and there, and insisted on Shadow Form being nerfed, which wouldn’t solve anything. Especially seeing how Shadow Form wasn’t the skill that made speedclears so easy. It was Shroud of Distress. (Shadow Form made you immune to spells after a bunch of nerfs -it used to make you immune to all damage-, and Shroud of Distress gave you a bazillion regen when you dropped below 50% hp.)

Run Arah without skipping 100+ times, I’ll do the same but with skipping. Let’s see who gets bored first, a person who is playing a game or the person who isn’t.

This whole whining is ridiculous, what happened to ‘play how you want’?

haviz.1340:

Run Arah without skipping 100+ times, I’ll do the same but with skipping. Let’s see who gets bored first, a person who is playing a game or the person who isn’t.

This whole whining is ridiculous, what happened to ‘play how you want’?

But thats not fair. Cose you have already ran Arah 100+ times.

mosspit.8936:

But thats not fair. Cose you have already ran Arah 100+ times.

So? I can do them again.

haviz.1340:

mosspit.8936:

But thats not fair. Cose you have already ran Arah 100+ times.

So? I can do them again.

I meant unfair… for you.

mosspit.8936:

I meant unfair… for you.

I’m sure I can handle it, unlike BHBs.

Himax.3954:

While your basic descriptions here are very astute, ultimately this is a matter more for the devs than for the players.

The ones who DESIGN the dungeons are supposed to have a grasp of the different playstyles, and more importantly what is expected of the players, to beat them.

I am most certainly a romanticist in regards to your definitions here. I can respect the skill required to slip past an enemy in order to avoid them. But if the point of a dungeon is just to get to the end as fast as possible for loot, then you’re not really PLAYING the game at all.

You can argue this case a thousand different ways, but ultimately the devs have to decide what they want dungeon runs to be, and how many different choices we can potentially make.

I highly disagree about this being a dev issue. It isn’t in the interest of the developers to straightjacket players through hard coding the game a certain way. There must be flexibility in the system to allow players to feel like they are free to make their own choices. There is a rule framework that ANet has about what is and isn’t an exploit. For example, as much as it might irk some people, skipping certain sections of trash mobs isn’t an exploit, and has been mentioned before by devs to not be exploits.
(Hrouda on skipping, Vaughn on skipping)

The developers have given us a sandbox. We as players have to take a certain amount of responsibility to avoid kicking sand in each others’ faces/privates. This might mean playing in different corners of the sandbox.

DigitalKirin.9714:

I highly disagree about this being a dev issue. It isn’t in the interest of the developers to straightjacket players through hard coding the game a certain way. There must be flexibility in the system to allow players to feel like they are free to make their own choices. There is a rule framework that ANet has about what is and isn’t an exploit. For example, as much as it might irk some people, skipping certain sections of trash mobs isn’t an exploit, and has been mentioned before by devs to not be exploits.
(Hrouda on skipping, Vaughn on skipping)

The developers have given us a sandbox. We as players have to take a certain amount of responsibility to avoid kicking sand in each others’ faces/privates. This might mean playing in different corners of the sandbox.

+1

Also wonder what your next title change will be.

mosspit.8936:

Also wonder what your next title change will be.

Not my fault. Looks like someone got a mod to change it.

Pity. Was really hoping that was you.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guardian-PTV/first#post2984320

Well, you certainly don’t disappoint a girl, I’ll give you that.