Guild Wars 2

I wanted to roleplay as a cleric tank in dungeons and found out that wasn’t effective. It is not fair that arenanet designed a game where the optimal build was not the build I wanted to roleplay with. I demand the game be changed so that my roleplay build is welcomed in groups.

Did I miss anything important from your point OP?

GazaKnight.8206:

I do understand you guys, but what Im saying is that these days in this game there is not holy Trinity but there is only DPS trinity (from my own experience) most all dungeons require player to have a DPS build or Else, they get kicked, and that is because the dungeons dont require a tank, healer or support players in the party because most of the time speed runs will skip most parts of a dungeon or keep stacking in a corner, and these 2 tactics dont require to have a tank healer or Condtion AOE, which is why its a bad gameplay design, what Im trying to say is ArenaNet still have a the chance to fix this by making the dungeons as hard as its for level 35 or 65 players (regardless of experienced or not), so we wont see the “80s, ZERKERS, EXPERIENCED” trinity anymore, specially in the lower level dungeons

So.. You want things to be as hard for a level 80 who could has full asc, as a level 35, in level 20 greens, no traits, hardly any utilities unlocked?

You also want SKILL (gained by experience) to not matter?

So I can join your pug, and then go semi-afk watch tv, and just hold W and tab-1 constantly? Since you know.. skill shouldn’t matter?

Q: did you think about what you were saying before posting?

@hybrid no not exactly caz I play Zerk on all charcters, but when I tried other things I found that its useless, Why! caz players are abusing game bad designs so they keep stacking from corner to corner or stealth the dungeon, which was not meant to happen, examples, people killing Lupicus in 4-3 secounds, oh maybe that one was fixed, people stealthing most of CM, stacking SoE. and to tell you having something the game dose not mean its right, take Colonel Marines for example, I saw people finishing the game in less than 2 hours by skipping everything reaching the alst boss and killing it, now that is in the game but dose it mean its a good thing? No it dose not

@RSLongK Arenanet made the game so that dungeon can acully take more than 2 hours at least but when players abused the bad game designs, most the builds are now banned caz there is no need for them in PvE, like I said there is no need for a healer in most dungeon groups because players are not playing the dungeon the way they wanted it to be played, the devs didnt make the dungeons to run from corner to corner, or stealth to the last boss, and if they did, why even bother adding all these build systems to the PvE if no one will use it, why bother adding all these monesters in the path, that is the problem, ArenaNet must change some of the things in the PvE so it can be improved, so there will be no Best Build like now, the only useful build in dungeons so Far is the DPS, Why! caz everyone is skipping most of the dungeon and these builds roles are gone. that is the problem, and when the devs said there is no Holy Trinity, they meant u can be a Necromancer Tank or a Dps Guardian, but what is going on in the PvE is that all Roles and Builds being kicked out of PvE caz u dont really need them to finish anything, arenanet must change these little things so the game can last longer

Well killing trash mobs is not rewarding, so why not skip them? Also with blind you can kill them without even being hit, so i don’t know where is the difficulty.

About stacking, just check the current speedclear records, no one stack a boss in a corner. This was mainly used when FGS was OP damage wise. But now that it’s been nerf (FGS is still awesome for mobility), there’s no point stacking in a corner.

GazaKnight.8206:

Oki…. listen up, first of all the problem here is not the noobs, if u look at the points u will see that im targetting the higher level players compared to a dungeon
and my points wont effect the noobs, im not saying make bosses harder im saying make the higher level players weaker, the noobs wont have a problem as they will have almost the same sates and armor as the higher level one right.
I do relise that everyone played the AC dungeon alot just as i did… and they are naturly more femelier with it, but as u said people before stacking and thats how dungeons are supposed to played, im not saying make the noob suffer, im saying make the veterns have a challenge when playing these dungeons.
like what is the problem in not makeing the bosd follow players to stack, that wont effect noobs it will effect the veterns or make the players clear the whole dungeon, that what players used to do before knowing the skipping and staking mechanics, and I never said and will never say that skipping and stacking is exploit and if i did, im wrong, skipping and stacking are not exploits but they are gameplay flows, bad game designs.
And about the healing build not needed in dungeons in general, and every player is able to heal himself
that is a good thimg but at the same time bad thing, caz it means that builds inside dungeons are unbalanced right?
And thanx for being reasonable in replaying @Harper.4173
p.s im useing my phone to replay so im sorry if i wrote something wrong, keep in mind english is not my language, thank you

Except people don’t do dungeons for the challenge they do it for the farm.
Veterans don’t go into dungeons thinking " booy I sure hope I get challenged today" they do it for the rewards.

Before dungeon rewards were revamped about a year ago hardly anyone even did dungeons because there was no point. Veterans certainly didn’t do them.

I understand that you think the way they are at release is the way dungeons should “always be” but the community in its majority doesn’t feel like that and I’m very curious how many people would still do AC today if the runs took 20 minutes per path or more. Probably not a lot.
Sure – the people that need the tokens for their armor or legendary would do it and hate doing it but those who had a choice? They’d just farm somewhere else.

Skipping and stacking have nothing to do with gameplay. People do them because they want to win the reward fast.
Anet has said that they don’t have anything against people stacking or skipping. You can’t force players to take longer than they’re capable or they’ll get upset. And for good reason.

The current system I believe is good – you want to skip and stack? Make your own party and do it.
You want to not skip and stack? Make your own party and do it.
Find people that enjoy the game same as you and you’ll be alright.

I don’t really understand how the healing stuff not being needed makes builds unbalanced.

Healing not being needed from another person is a key pillar around which this game was built.
Asking GW2 to promote healing builds would be going against its core philosophy.

GazaKnight.8206:

when ArenaNet no Trinity, it meant that u can Fulfill any role, but what is going on is that there is no trinity but only unity, if a player want to play a condition damge will be properly kicked out of the party and thats the problem, a one build baning other builds out of PvE, which is happening because there is no balance between builds and content are not challanging at all that it dose not need you to play a specfic role to finish something Imnot saying Holy Trinity, Im saying balance between builds, Im not saying guards must tank caz Necros can Tank too, but wha Im saying is there is no balance bettwen builds and dungeons difficulty

Condition builds are a problem because of how conditions work. If they could they would fix it. It has nothing to do with Zerker or the meta.

“Balance between builds” exists – you just don’t see it.

Optimal meta builds ( like others have stated above) do well, clear fast and get the rewards in the fastest time.

Suboptimal non-meta builds do alright, clear slowly and get the rewards slower.

To run a meta build you have to be more skilled than you have to be to run a crutch sub-meta toughness/vitality stacking build.

More skilled is better rewarded.

Something needs to be done about this Nemesis guy brainwashing all of these poor people. This has been going on long enough.

GazaKnight.8206:

I do understand you guys, but what Im saying is that these days in this game there is not holy Trinity but there is only DPS trinity (from my own experience) most all dungeons require player to have a DPS build or Else, they get kicked, and that is because the dungeons dont require a tank, healer or support players in the party because most of the time speed runs will skip most parts of a dungeon or keep stacking in a corner, and these 2 tactics dont require to have a tank healer or Condtion AOE, which is why its a bad gameplay design, what Im trying to say is ArenaNet still have a the chance to fix this by making the dungeons as hard as its for level 35 or 65 players (regardless of experienced or not), so we wont see the “80s, ZERKERS, EXPERIENCED” trinity anymore, specially in the lower level dungeons

You can’t make the dungeon as hard as it was regardless of experience because you can’t take experience away.

If i know the boss and all its attacks I can bring all damage gear because I know how to avoid all his damage.
I couldn’t do that at level 35 – but now I can.

If you go around this and make the boss so hard that I can’t do my thing it means the level 35 guy doesn’t stand a chance -that’s what I’m trying to explain.

You can’t negate hundreds of hours of experience.

Also Support exists in game – it just doesn’t wear what you think it should wear. Support comes from Traits and skills and a full zerker player is still full support if that’s what they have as traits and skills.

Your gear is a measure of how much damage you can avoid through skill and knowledge – the better you are the more damage you can deal as a reward because you don’t need those extra stats to keep you alive.

The final point is this : people make use of the best tools and mechanics available to them in order to complete the content the fastest and get easy reward. That will never change.

How are you surprised that people stealth skip in CM? Do you think people are there to waste time? No. People want the reward. The reward is at the end of the dungeon so it becomes a race to the finish.

If killing trash mobs was rewarding in some way maybe people would bother instead of skipping.

The idea they should look at is not to punish people for skipping but give them an alternative and a reason to maybe not skip and reward them for it.

I was going to post an actual reply, but after seeing how the OP ignores the stuff that contradicts his “vision”, all I can say about his arguments is this.

To recap what people are trying to say, but without the hostility:

It isn’t going to change. Get used to it, or play another game. People have been trying to get more advanced AI and other improvements to dungeons since launch. Let’s not even talk about gear diversity…

See my first post in this thread: We’ve had ArenaNet employees come into this forum and say “we don’t have the resources to revamp dungeons.” Read the links I put in that post. The things you want will not happen, no matter how badly you want them to. It sucks, I know, but that’s the sad reality.

OP Point 1:
Statement:
Stealth is an exploit – and should not be used to skip mobs.

Response:
Stealth is a fundamental part of the game design and is not an exploit.
Skipping mobs is not an exploit either – it is a fundamental part of the game design.
In many dungeons you can skip mobs without stealth easily – eg AC and is regularly done.

OP point 2:
a big example is as of today I wanted to start playing a Tank/Healer guardian, so I asked in the map chat if anyone knows a good build, most of the answers were, no one will let u in their party, u will be kicked, and one of the answers were “there is no place for Healing, tank, and support in PvE (basically Dungeons)”
—>. This is not how the game has been designed. You are looking for a different designed game. Perhaps this game is not for you?
A full zerk guardian doing high DPS output can still give ‘heal’ and ‘condi’ removals whilst still being configured almost optimally for DPS.

OP Point 3;
Statement :
Should be more variation for builds / classes than a single meta.

_Response: _ in many games players will always find the optimal method for doing something. This becomes a meta – there may even be variations of meta. This is natural evolution. PUG groups often do not run meta as they have no idea what it is.

OP Point 4: Arah should take 2-3 hrs and lupi should not be killed in 3-4s.
_Response: _ lupi is like any other boss – why should this boss take longer to kill than others? This is not an exploit – just people have learnt how to play/fight against this boss after several years. This is natural.
Arah- rewards 2-3G : Many pug groups may take 2-4 hrs. Spending an hour or more at Lupi as they are learning the fight. Once the dungeons are experienced they will either give up running it again or learn to be better and work out what works best in there.
No-one wants to spend 3-4 hrs each time to run Arah- it does not fit casual (but good) players game styles.
In GW1- Deep/Urgoz are two areas requiring 12 players to complete like a dungeon with an end chest. When these zones were released it took players 4hrs to complete these. After about 6 months players were running these at the highest levels in under 15 mins. This involved skipping (running past mobs) and lots of fast paced killing requiring everyone in sync (stelth did not exist in gw1).

Conclusion:
The OP does not understand how the game is designed and that he/she cannot run at the highest levels and is trying to make the game work in the way they want it to.

The game was designed for zerker to be for the best.
Stacking is a design choice by ANET
Stealth is a design choice by ANET, Skipping mobs is design choice by ANET.

Players will always migrate to the optimal method of doing things.
They will utilise the full potential of there skills to the best of there advantage including gear, weapons, utilities and traits.

Players will always migrate to the optimal method of doing things.
They will utilise the full potential of there skills to the best of there advantage including gear, weapons, utilities and traits.
They are ‘exploiting’ the potential of there character and making the best use of it as they can. Just using a weapon and armor is an exploit if you use a pure dictionary definition.
Based on a pure dictionary definition ‘exploit’: ‘a striking or notable deed;feat’ – would mean every GW2 player ‘exploits’ as they perform a kill of a world boss in PvE

However ANETs definition of ‘exploit’ is not a dictionary one and can be found here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exploit

How about we decide to stop responding to this thread as I can’t see it going anywhere?

Also – skipping is intended. And stealth is too. Think about it – if they really wanted you to kill everything in the room they wouldn’t have unlocked the next room until you killed everything in this one.

GazaKnight.8206:

@hybrid no not exactly caz I play Zerk on all charcters, but when I tried other things I found that its useless, Why! caz players are abusing game bad designs so they keep stacking from corner to corner or stealth the dungeon, which was not meant to happen, examples, people killing Lupicus in 4-3 secounds, oh maybe that one was fixed, people stealthing most of CM, stacking SoE. and to tell you having something the game dose not mean its right, take Colonel Marines for example, I saw people finishing the game in less than 2 hours by skipping everything reaching the alst boss and killing it, now that is in the game but dose it mean its a good thing? No it dose not

@RSLongK Arenanet made the game so that dungeon can acully take more than 2 hours at least but when players abused the bad game designs, most the builds are now banned caz there is no need for them in PvE, like I said there is no need for a healer in most dungeon groups because players are not playing the dungeon the way they wanted it to be played, the devs didnt make the dungeons to run from corner to corner, or stealth to the last boss, and if they did, why even bother adding all these build systems to the PvE if no one will use it, why bother adding all these monesters in the path, that is the problem, ArenaNet must change some of the things in the PvE so it can be improved, so there will be no Best Build like now, the only useful build in dungeons so Far is the DPS, Why! caz everyone is skipping most of the dungeon and these builds roles are gone. that is the problem, and when the devs said there is no Holy Trinity, they meant u can be a Necromancer Tank or a Dps Guardian, but what is going on in the PvE is that all Roles and Builds being kicked out of PvE caz u dont really need them to finish anything, arenanet must change these little things so the game can last longer

I advise you to read up on an ancient post by a former dungeon dev(we don’t have anyone for dungeons now) regarding most of your concerns:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Will-the-new-update-stop-skipping/first#post1205684

So the gist of the post is summed up nicely on the last sentence: Find other people with similar interests and band together with them.

@Artemis Thuras.8795
yes I did, and to tell I didnt say skill dose not matter, and why not a dungeon be as hard for a level 35 as its for an 80, arent u supposed to be experienced, and know more about your class (profession), and when I said that skills and traits must have a level required to be used, and not allowed to be used in dungeons lower than the reuired level for that skill or trait, yes this well do ballance in dungeons, so u dont have to be 80 to do a dungeon

I didnt say Stealth or skipping is an exploit, its a bad game design

and if what u say about ArenaNet made the game for Zerkers and speed runs, why did they bother adding all this complicated and creative PvE build system??? u telling me for PvP or WvW, why not just keep it there then and cut it out from PvE?

Even with a zerker set, there’s many different builds that can be used. Playing one class with meta build doesn’t not mean playing one single build. It all depends to what you need in your group. It all comes down to your understanding of the class.

GazaKnight.8206:

and if what u say about ArenaNet made the game for Zerkers and speed runs, why did they bother adding all this complicated and creative PvE build system??? u telling me for PvP or WvW, why not just keep it there then and cut it out from PvE?

What “complicated and creative PvE build system” are you referring to?

ROFL:
Stealth is a bad game design.

ROFL:
Skipping is a bad game design.

When I have stopped laughing I might respond back to the OP- with a rational response.
I doubt this will be until 2020.

GazaKnight.8206:

and if what u say about ArenaNet made the game for Zerkers and speed runs, why did they bother adding all this complicated and creative PvE build system??? u telling me for PvP or WvW, why not just keep it there then and cut it out from PvE?

We aren’t saying it. ArenaNet’s actions (or lack of them) speak far louder than our words. You’re still wasting your time trying to get things to change, bud.

GazaKnight.8206:

and if what u say about ArenaNet made the game for Zerkers and speed runs, why did they bother adding all this complicated and creative PvE build system??? u telling me for PvP or WvW, why not just keep it there then and cut it out from PvE?

Can you please just stop? You have no idea what you’re talking about and everyone is tired of you. I’m trying to be as nice as possible but you’re being annoying to everyone in this thread.

this is the last reply

Stealth is not a bad game design, but using it to skip is bad
stacking is a bad game design as it dose not offer the challenge the content are supposed to have.
ArenaNet wasted alot of efforts in the Build system because nothing matters but the DPS builds.
players want to skip and stack caz there is no reward for killing these mobs
when they said “no holy Trinity” they meant that the party wont have to wait for a certain class to come, as any class can fulfill any role in the game…
the game has no expansions and that means no new dungeons. which may make a player want to quit caz of the same content played over and over
there is no ballance between dungeons and players level, means that most players wont play dungeons until they are 80 tho the dungeon level required level is much lower than that.

basiclly… the game has an unfair PvE system for most gear,skills, and builds.
no Rewarding system that is encourage players to clear all dungeons instead skip it all, which bans the other builds that were meant for the skipped parts

Im was not really complaing about it all, I just wanted to have a clearer idea of why is it all wasted, and was hopping for a change, that wont effect all the speed runners and will make it more rewarding for players to clear the whole dungeon. and make it a bit fair for new comers and low level to do dungeons without being kicked straight away (specially in AC, CM or TA)

thats all

see u all on the Battlefeild

Stealth is not a bad game design, but using it to skip is bad.

Response: ROFL
No justification for this statement – it is entirely flawed this sentence in itself.

Stacking offers no challenge.
Response : ROFL
Stacking isn’t magic it’s not like we just press 1- we use stuns, blinds, blocks etc.
The challenge is still there – it’s there in a different way than you think the game should be designed.

The rest of the post doesn’t even warrant a response.
It’s painfully obvious the OP doesn’t know what he is talking about.

I think GW2 isn’t the game for you – prehaps try a different one?
Good luck out there.

What is stealth supposed to be used for in PvE if not skipping? o.O

spoj.9672:

What is stealth supposed to be used for in PvE if not skipping? o.O

To stealth people that go down and res them I guess, or maybe to RP.

GazaKnight.8206:

@Artemis Thuras.8795
yes I did, and to tell I didnt say skill dose not matter, and why not a dungeon be as hard for a level 35 as its for an 80, arent u supposed to be experienced, and know more about your class (profession), and when I said that skills and traits must have a level required to be used, and not allowed to be used in dungeons lower than the reuired level for that skill or trait, yes this well do ballance in dungeons, so u dont have to be 80 to do a dungeon

Because the whole point of leveling up is getting stronger in order to obtain better rewards in a more effective way.

You’re not even making sense anymore. Traits restricted in dungeons?
Where’s the enjoyment in making and playing your class the way you want to if for over half the dungeons you have to play a partial build of what you like?

It doesn’t make any sense and would literally be a final nail in the coffin for dungeons.

I get that you feel very strongly about dungeons and the state of the game but what you’re proposing is not only preposterous it’s also game breaking.

I suggest you take a step back and gather more information and know-how about the game before you make more posts about how it should be changed.

I think we can let this thread die now.
It is a testament to the lack of understanding some people have and how terrible ideas can be produced by simple lack of knowledge.

Stealth is there so we can walk up to the baddies and shout ‘BOO’ whilst wearing white sheets and pillows on our heads (as armor is an exploit).

The action of shouting ‘boo’ at the enemy in this way made it run scared and fall off the cliff jumping to it’s death in the fiery volcano below.

Yup- it works for RP

Guys, listen to him, he has 340 hours played, he’s obviously far more experienced than all of you.
OP: try arah when you’re done with your ac farm.

Jeremlloyd.6837:

Even with a zerker set, there’s many different builds that can be used. Playing one class with meta build doesn’t not mean playing one single build. It all depends to what you need in your group. It all comes down to your understanding of the class.

^^ SO much this.

I don’t like the idea of “DPS Build only!”

No, it’s DPS gear only because the alternatives simply aren’t worth it unless you’re inexperienced with your tools and game play.

Weapon, utility slot and trait choices allow you to play the GW2 trinity of Control, Support, and DPS.

Like my guard I can go with GS/Mace+Focus and get a little healing with that mace choice, paired with a 45005 build getting a bit more passive healing from absolute resolution as well as the condi cleanse that likely will be needed when I’m concerned about the healing element of mace. Add on Master of consecrations paired with Purging flames and I’m a very support built player at that point.

I use that for dungeons like CoF, while you don’t need it in good groups in a general pug or slower group that bit of healing and condi removal can be a godsend in my experience.

Then I go to CoE, I’ll run maybe Stand your ground in some parts swapping out for Bane Signet in others. Run Wall of Reflection for the beginning dropping it after the golem. Then Retreat paired with Unscathed Contender running a 46202 build much of the time. If a group is good that works fine, if it’s not I’ll be swapping to a 55040 hammer build on p1 and maybe p3 if the group is unable to consistently dodge the teeth attacks.

I’m always looking to maximize my effort for the ease of the team. If that means bringing damage because we don’t need support, cool, if that means bringing support because we need/want it, cool.

Same with mesmer, 64004 is my general start, but need reflects I’ll work it around to get the 4 in there so 64040 maybe even 42044 if I want a lot of reflects and fast attacking wardens. Maybe 46004 if I am really focusing on conditions with my mantra while also freeing me from wanting to maintain as many mantras as possible so I can slot feedback, portal or blink or something like that without the damage loss concern. I feel there’s a lot of variations on mesmer that can be quite useful in many different situations. I’ll also use pistol a lot of the control effect of the 5 skill, even though sword is technically better dps as well as an additional block, but I simply value that pistol a lot more often. After seeing the CLUB run of SEp3 I even started using GS here and there for that push as I can usually sit with sword/focus, which I almost never leave not because it’s good damage but because the focus is amazing for it’s utility.

This is why the whole “everything is about DPS” idea bugs me, it’s really not, it’s just the gear that is.

There is a saying “when a man is wrong, a true one will admit it”
i was wrong… and i always skip and stack dungeons, i know that i was saying non scense… sooo… im sorry

GrimmR.3541:

Don’t make Nemessis rise again. We lost too many brave soldiers to that demon!

To the rest; Go Zerk or make your own group/guild.. quite simple!

You heff summoned mii ! I am frii to walk in thiis rrealm again !
Everryone in dis thrread iss wrrong and an exploiterr! I will soon prrresent you a brrandnew, iin-depth viideoguide which will ixplain to you why the Burrsurrker Metta will always be worrse in comparrrison to the hybrrid tanky condi clerrric biilds that I crreated to finally purrge the fiilthy Burrsurrker Meta, so we can all enjoy thiis game again!

Purple Miku.7032:

Something needs to be done about this Nemesis guy brainwashing all of these poor people. This has been going on long enough.

If they don’t open their own brains for that guy to dump trash into, you can’t just blame Nemesis for his half job done.

Hennessey.2985:

GrimmR.3541:

Don’t make Nemessis rise again. We lost too many brave soldiers to that demon!

To the rest; Go Zerk or make your own group/guild.. quite simple!

You heff summoned mii ! I am frii to walk in thiis rrealm again !
Everryone in dis thrread iss wrrong and an exploiterr! I will soon prrresent you a brrandnew, iin-depth viideoguide which will ixplain to you why the Burrsurrker Metta will always be worrse in comparrrison to the hybrrid tanky condi clerrric biilds that I crreated to finally purrge the fiilthy Burrsurrker Meta, so we can all enjoy thiis game again!

Nemessey is back!
Vampires suck.

GazaKnight.8206:

There is a saying “when a man is wrong, a true one will admit it”
i was wrong… and i always skip and stack dungeons, i know that i was saying non scense… sooo… im sorry

Look bro,

First one is telling you that you have to always skip and always stack.

1. We are telling you to make your own group, explaining you want to clear or what not, and find like minded players.
2. Many of us are saying not to ask for radical changes if you don’t have the experience in game to know what those changes would do.

I don’t think that any one who has posted to you here would join those kinds of groups and tell you that your wrong and that you need to play the game our way. Which is what you kinda did when you came here.

Just some back ground, there area always bad advice and bad suggestions on the forums. I started playing before the headstart weekend. I cringe to even type /age because I don’t want to know how much of my life I have spent on this game. Despite how much I have enjoyed it.

When I first started I fell in love with the guardian concept. Defense magic offense weapons. My first set of exotic gear was Power, Precision and Condition damage. I was thinking of changing it over to zerker gear when I came to the forums and read a bit for the first time. Here I read about the AH Anchor build and with so many supporting it I decided I should as well.

It wasn’t till the change to magic find that I came back and really came back here. I had a full set of exotic clerics, knights, soldiers and rampagers gear at that point, along with my magic find I used for Solo farming. Yet sometimes during dungeon or fractals I would be forced to change gear or repair due to constant wipes.

When some one finally said to try to turn that old magic find gear into zerker gear I started to think for myself again. And its been alot easier since then. I did die at first, but eventually I found that the runs were quicker and smoother then when we tried to take a tank with us.

I understand you want to play a certain way. We are not telling you not to do that. We are telling you not to try to impose that style here. Because we have been around enough to see what those kinds of ideas if let run wild do. A good example of this is the spider queen in AC.

I dont believe the dungeons are fully at fault, its mainly the view of " tourament playstyle "
and/or " play to win " playstyle that alot of people dont get and think are hacks / cheats / expoits etc.. etc..

GazaKnight.8206:

I do understand you guys, but what Im saying is that these days in this game there is not holy Trinity but there is only DPS trinity (from my own experience) most all dungeons require player to have a DPS build or Else, they get kicked, and that is because the dungeons dont require a tank, healer or support players in the party because most of the time speed runs will skip most parts of a dungeon or keep stacking in a corner, and these 2 tactics dont require to have a tank healer or Condtion AOE, which is why its a bad gameplay design, what Im trying to say is ArenaNet still have a the chance to fix this by making the dungeons as hard as its for level 35 or 65 players (regardless of experienced or not), so we wont see the “80s, ZERKERS, EXPERIENCED” trinity anymore, specially in the lower level dungeons

Ok so it seems that your issue is not so much that there is no trinity (i.e. no healing or tank roles), but that with the current combat and dungeon design is that it makes traditional roles of the tank and healer obsolete. There will always be “zerker only 80 exp” groups as long as combat is the way it is.

There is NO way to fix this. You make dungeons harder? Well people will be even more picky about their groups, instead of “zerker” only, you’ll have “zerker meta only” For the type of people who start/join these types of group are looking for speed runs. They don’t want to spend any more time then absolutley necessary in the dungeon. You nerf beserker again, so that it is completely useless? Assassins becomes the meta. Nerf that, then what Valk? Soldiers? Where do you stop? The problem isn’t in the gear, or the combat mechanics. The problem is that people want to play in the most effecient way possible, and will find out the best possible way to do that. It’s not a game flaw, it’s a people “flaw” (if you can consider it that). And there is nothing you can change or do in game to change that.

Groups can use healers and tanks and control. However if you want to join a group for a fast run through a dungeon then that group doesn’t need dedicated tanks or healers. Control can be provided through a few skills without any specialization. Speed runs use well tested tactics that prioritize dps and don’t need much else.

You could ask your groups not to use preferred tactics and to take more time to complete the dungeon but why would the group be happy with that?

So gaza, you seem to buy gold or gems with real money so you don’t seem to struggle like some players ingame.

I’m for skipping. I’m for exploits. Main reason is RNG. In fractals i get a gold and a half after 4 dungeons. In pve i get a gold and 60 tokens in 20ish min.

On tequatil i get 3 greens. It takes around an hour to organize and manage to defeat it (due to overflow you need to get there early), on fire elemental i get 3 champion boxes and a few rares. It takes around 40 sec to defeat it.

So there you have it. When they fix RNG, i’ll stop skipping and exploiting.

I second you on the exploit/glitching(/stacking)!

For me, the enjoyment of particular paths is largely determined of how many times the group is likely to use exploits.

It just makes fun secondary to gold-gain.

Yet, I don’t think people would be all that unhappy if they where not able to (i.e.) stack; The increased gold gain isn’t big enough for that.

(Removing most exploits from daily routine and increasing gold gain would be a good solution)

The problem with stacking is that there isn’t any good aggro mehanic.By removing the holy trinity Anet also removed the aggro that was hold by the tank.By doing that they encouraged maximizing your dps and speed clears.Pulling bosses to corners is the most efficient way to hold the aggro and have the maximum dps possible.Such example is the Spider Queen in AC(1st boss).Kill or be killed(by her aoe if you are not fast enough).

Why Marionete and Liadry are great fights?Because the aggro there is perfectly hold.When Anet created GW2 and removed the Trinity they didn’t take in account how the aggro will be spread accross the group.

Anet made zerkers/bunkers/Condition builds but in PvE only the 1st one is really viable because the aggro can’t be hold perfectly so the bosses have to die faster.
On another note by removing the tank Anet encouraged range fight more.Perfect examples are some of the last bosses in FotM.

Look, another guy stacking spider queen.
Come back when you know the actual meta strats. Liadri is a solo fight, she better have the aggro on you all the time. Go back to ranging bosses, but don’t think you’re experienced enough to speak about balance.

oxtred.7658:

Look, another guy stacking spider queen.
Come back when you know the actual meta strats. Liadri is a solo fight, she better have the aggro on you all the time. Go back to ranging bosses, but don’t think you’re experienced enough to speak about balance.

Oooo i know perfectly what i’m talking about.I run more than enough speed clears with a pre-made every day.I never pug.The aggro in GW2 is one big mess which anet have thrown in the bin.

moiraine.2753:

The problem with stacking is that there isn’t any good aggro mehanic.By removing the holy trinity Anet also removed the aggro that was hold by the tank.By doing that they encouraged maximizing your dps and speed clears.Pulling bosses to corners is the most efficient way to hold the aggro and have the maximum dps possible.Such example is the Spider Queen in AC(1st boss).Kill or be killed(by her aoe if you are not fast enough).

To be fair, maximizing DPS and doing speed clears were already pretty popular in GW1, which DID have a trinity. However, there is some truth to what you say. Because aggro is a bit of a mess, it is more useful to just stack on top of each other, in order to kill things as fast as possible. But this isn’t all that different from GW1 either, where players tried to group enemies together, so they could easily be nuked in one big swoop.

If Anet wanted to have more dynamic combat, where players actually position themselves, and move around. Then players should no longer be able to out-heal a mob of monsters, or monsters should have skills that allow them to break up a group of players.

moiraine.2753:

Why Marionete and Liadry are great fights?Because the aggro there is perfectly hold.When Anet created GW2 and removed the Trinity they didn’t take in account how the aggro will be spread accross the group.

Those two fights are great for two entirely different reasons, none of which have anything to do with aggro control. Liadri is a good boss, because she is a fine tuned boss encounter for a single player. Her fight is all about skill. The Marionette was a good boss fight because it broke up the zergs into smaller groups, and then divided those groups up into even smaller groups, so it still demanded individual skill. A single platform could still fail due to bad players, and you couldn’t stack or spam your way through the fight.

moiraine.2753:

Anet made zerkers/bunkers/Condition builds but in PvE only the 1st one is really viable because the aggro can’t be hold perfectly so the bosses have to die faster.

Anet didn’t make any of those builds, we did. Zerkers are a dominant strategy, due to the DPS focus of the game’s combat system. Condition builds are underpowered, due to the way PVE is anti-conditions. And bunker is simply not what the game is about, plus toughness and armor just don’t scale well at higher PVE levels. I would say all of these builds have emerged due to an unbalanced combat system.

moiraine.2753:

On another note by removing the tank Anet encouraged range fight more.Perfect examples are some of the last bosses in FotM.

I don’t see a whole lot of ranged combat in Fractals. Ranged attacks against Mai Trin will more likely get you killed. And with the Molten duo, you are simply always on the move. Same for the Anomaly boss, who is all about movement. The ranged combat in these boss fights is encouraged by the environment in which the boss fight takes place, and has nothing to do with the removal of the tank role.

IF your speedclear group stack SQ and range FOTM bosses, I’m afraid it’s not a speedclear group.

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512,

When i talk about FotM i don’t have in mind speciffically the last fractal.What I mean is the last boss in a specific fractal for instance the volcano.

moiraine.2753:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512,

When i talk about FotM i don’t have in mind speciffically the last fractal.What I mean is the last boss in a specific fractal for instance the volcano.

Are you sure?
Might want to change your Spider Queen tactics too

Looks like this game is left with the zerkers only like oxtred.7658.Now i understand why tanks and healers have left long time ago and why the game PvE is so stagnant.
Any way looks like i will just wait for Anet to finish with their Raid CDI.I really adore the things that are discussed there.

Looks like the game is full of inexperienced players like you trying to impose their view on records and speedruns when they don’t even understand what we are doing in those. The tanks and healers didn’t left, they are still expecting to be carried in my ping gear groups. You’re arguing about ranging and stacking when both are suboptimal tactics in most cases, and you’ll probably argue against LOS, wich is the most common thing in any mmo.

Also, forum bug.