1v1 balance should not be ignored.

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

Now, this might be beating a dead horse, but I feel that staying in the house would be worse, at least I’d get some fresh air even if the horse is dead, so to speak.
You see, you don’t LIKE being owned 1v1. No one does. But when it happens, muliple possibilities open. Was he more skilled? Does he have a build that counters yours? While the first two are acceptable, the third looms overhead, and it’s name is “His class is just stronger than mine”.

Now, this is a team based game, I get it, but should 1v1 balance really be swept under the rug with a “we can’t balance it both ways” broom? Because that’s just not good enough!
There are TONS of games out there, many from the previous decade, that embraced the task and managed to create a team vs solo balance that the majority is happy with.
Should then Arena Net, who claims to break the mold, shy away from a task that is standard proceedure for the vast majority? I get it guys, you want to think new, but some things are there to stay. Some concepts shouldn’t be broken. In short, IF IT AIN’T BROKEN, DON’T FIX IT. If you don’t understand this then I’m sorry to say that you’ve kinda failed.

And yes, I’ve heard some croaks and creeks that this will ruin the group balance. Mhmm. Like you haven’t been there before. Most of the MMO’s you played before this underwent that phase, you pushed through, you arrived at a better omelette that made it worth breaking a few eggs. So this really wouldn’t be a strange new concept to you.

tl;dr: All classes should have a fair chance vs all classes 1v1, only being affected by skill and builds. The CORE functions of the classes needs to be balanced, builds are what can and should decide if that guy had the advantage over this guy, not the base mechanics in themselves.

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: xephire.8324

xephire.8324

There will always be imbalance.

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Posted by: Wolfheart.1938

Wolfheart.1938

No, 1 vs 1 balance shouldn’t be ignored but shouldn’t be a focus either. Balance the game around its (group-based) main modes (SPvP, WvW and PvE), then tweak a thing or two if a certain class has too much/too little 1 vs 1 prowess.

At least imo, it’s totally fair if a certain class in a certain build can wreck in 1 vs 1 another class with another certain build.

“We have no first-person view because stupid people would lock into it”
“You can’t have more than 10 HS decks because that would confuse people”
“30 fps is more cinematic”

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

I understand that complete balance is impossible.
But riddle me this: Have that ever stopped developers from TRYING?

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

No, 1 vs 1 balance shouldn’t be ignored but shouldn’t be a focus either. Balance the game around its (group-based) main modes (SPvP, WvW and PvE), then tweak a thing or two if a certain class has too much/too little 1 vs 1 prowess.

At least imo, it’s totally fair if a certain class in a certain build can wreck in 1 vs 1 another class with another certain build.

Yes, builds are fine, some builds are hard counters to others. That’s balanced as long as you can identify the enemy build and change yours to a better suited one. But when simply the class and the class skills, unaltered by builds, is simply much better 1v1, that’s imbalance, and no one likes to not have a fair chance, amirite?

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Posted by: Scrambles.2604

Scrambles.2604

I understand that complete balance is impossible.
But riddle me this: Have that ever stopped developers from TRYING?

i have an elementalist that has seen nerfs for balance changes very frequently. If that’s not trying then i don’t know what you want.

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Posted by: Nuka Cola.8520

Nuka Cola.8520

All this will achieve is EVEN MOAR engi/mez nerfs. I don’t want nerfs anymore… up other classes to engi/mez 1v1 level.

Fact: every Thief tells you to “l2p” when the subject is to nerf stealth.

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Posted by: Wolfheart.1938

Wolfheart.1938

Agreed. But what class do you think has a (non build-related) advantage over another one? Because I played Guardian and Necro pretty extensively and I have wrecked/been wrecked by all classes.

“We have no first-person view because stupid people would lock into it”
“You can’t have more than 10 HS decks because that would confuse people”
“30 fps is more cinematic”

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: xephire.8324

xephire.8324

All this will achieve is EVEN MOAR engi/mez nerfs. I don’t want nerfs anymore… up other classes to engi/mez 1v1 level.

I think i should trademark the word MOAR.lol

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

I understand that complete balance is impossible.
But riddle me this: Have that ever stopped developers from TRYING?

i have an elementalist that has seen nerfs for balance changes very frequently. If that’s not trying then i don’t know what you want.

That’s good, but it should happen for every class.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

All this will achieve is EVEN MOAR engi/mez nerfs. I don’t want nerfs anymore… up other classes to engi/mez 1v1 level.

I think i should trademark the word MOAR.lol

The only potent engineers I see are condition engineers, if you have good condition removal then that effectively gimps them.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

Agreed. But what class do you think has a (non build-related) advantage over another one? Because I played Guardian and Necro pretty extensively and I have wrecked/been wrecked by all classes.

Well, I’ve always felt Mesmer depends on the stupidity of the foe more than their own skills, and that in itself is really weird. My suggested nerf , or should I say balancing act, is to add a 5 second cooldown to the trait that creates a clone upon dodge roll (forgot the name) – And yes, I know I said without builds, but this is not really a build as the problem with mesmers, as I see it, comes from one single talent.

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Posted by: Wolfheart.1938

Wolfheart.1938

Ever heard of HGH engineers? lol

Engineer is probably one of the stronges duelers in this game and with a (relatively) wide choice of builds!

“We have no first-person view because stupid people would lock into it”
“You can’t have more than 10 HS decks because that would confuse people”
“30 fps is more cinematic”

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

Ever heard of HGH engineers? lol

Engineer is probably one of the stronges duelers in this game and with a (relatively) wide choice of builds!

I am an HGH engy myself. There are classes that can remove or even corrupt boons with ease.

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Posted by: Nuka Cola.8520

Nuka Cola.8520

All this will achieve is EVEN MOAR engi/mez nerfs. I don’t want nerfs anymore… up other classes to engi/mez 1v1 level.

I think i should trademark the word MOAR.lol

The only potent engineers I see are condition engineers, if you have good condition removal then that effectively gimps them.

good condi removal or not, with their tones of abilities, cc, confusion spam batman (with perplex runes its lolzorz) any class can have a lot of problem against a good engi even when both are equally skilled. Engis have access to so much good stuff from their kits its pretty guuud for 1v1

Fact: every Thief tells you to “l2p” when the subject is to nerf stealth.

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Posted by: Svetli.4276

Svetli.4276

when you can kill payer using just 1 skill the 1v1 will never be balanced :P

“What you wish for may not be what she wishes for.” – Skull Knight

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Posted by: Scrambles.2604

Scrambles.2604

I understand that complete balance is impossible.
But riddle me this: Have that ever stopped developers from TRYING?

i have an elementalist that has seen nerfs for balance changes very frequently. If that’s not trying then i don’t know what you want.

That’s good, but it should happen for every class.

I was just using eles as an example, cuz they’ve seemingly got the hardest nerfs.

But, just off the top of my head, rangers and necros recently got buffs.

if there were never any class changes i would agree they ignore balance, but since they adjust the classes almost every patch this is faaaaar from the case.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

All this will achieve is EVEN MOAR engi/mez nerfs. I don’t want nerfs anymore… up other classes to engi/mez 1v1 level.

I think i should trademark the word MOAR.lol

The only potent engineers I see are condition engineers, if you have good condition removal then that effectively gimps them.

good condi removal or not, with their tones of abilities, cc, confusion spam batman (with perplex runes its lolzorz) any class can have a lot of problem against a good engi even when both are equally skilled. Engis have access to so much good stuff from their kits its pretty guuud for 1v1

As a longtime engy… trust me, that’s not true.

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Posted by: Wolfheart.1938

Wolfheart.1938

Ever heard of HGH engineers? lol

Engineer is probably one of the stronges duelers in this game and with a (relatively) wide choice of builds!

I am an HGH engy myself. There are classes that can remove or even corrupt boons with ease.

Yes, this still doesn’t make it one of the best 1 vs 1 classes. And you made me agree with Nuka Cola, hope you are happy now!

P.s. I think this thread lost its focus!
P.p.s. I trust Teldo way more than you, no offense. Oh, also Super from Car Crash.

“We have no first-person view because stupid people would lock into it”
“You can’t have more than 10 HS decks because that would confuse people”
“30 fps is more cinematic”

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

Ever heard of HGH engineers? lol

Engineer is probably one of the stronges duelers in this game and with a (relatively) wide choice of builds!

I am an HGH engy myself. There are classes that can remove or even corrupt boons with ease.

Yes, this still doesn’t make it one of the best 1 vs 1 classes. And you made me agree with Nuka Cola, hope you are happy now!

P.s. I think this thread lost its focus!
P.p.s. I trust Teldo way more than you, no offense. Oh, also Super from Car Crash.

Who are these people you speak of? Ah, I don’t care, tell them to go post on the forums and I’ll bast an eyelid amigo.
But anyways, back to base, I think classes are, excluding builds, unbalanced 1v1, that it CANNOT be ignored on the basis of this being a team based game, and that more work needs to go towards this.

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Posted by: Nuka Cola.8520

Nuka Cola.8520

All this will achieve is EVEN MOAR engi/mez nerfs. I don’t want nerfs anymore… up other classes to engi/mez 1v1 level.

I think i should trademark the word MOAR.lol

The only potent engineers I see are condition engineers, if you have good condition removal then that effectively gimps them.

good condi removal or not, with their tones of abilities, cc, confusion spam batman (with perplex runes its lolzorz) any class can have a lot of problem against a good engi even when both are equally skilled. Engis have access to so much good stuff from their kits its pretty guuud for 1v1

As a longtime engy… trust me, that’s not true.

What isn’t? The only thing that sucks with engi are stun breakers, everything else they’re in the top three for 1v1’s. Engis have a lot of pressure for 1v1’s with their cc/blinds/blocks and have pretty decent condi removal as well.

Fact: every Thief tells you to “l2p” when the subject is to nerf stealth.

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

All this will achieve is EVEN MOAR engi/mez nerfs. I don’t want nerfs anymore… up other classes to engi/mez 1v1 level.

I think i should trademark the word MOAR.lol

The only potent engineers I see are condition engineers, if you have good condition removal then that effectively gimps them.

good condi removal or not, with their tones of abilities, cc, confusion spam batman (with perplex runes its lolzorz) any class can have a lot of problem against a good engi even when both are equally skilled. Engis have access to so much good stuff from their kits its pretty guuud for 1v1

As a longtime engy… trust me, that’s not true.

What isn’t? The only thing that sucks with engi are stun breakers, everything else they’re in the top three for 1v1’s. Engis have a lot of pressure for 1v1’s with their cc/blinds/blocks and have pretty decent condi removal as well.

Bombs are easy to dodge, so are grenades, flamethrower is not worth it, the 2 skill on pistol misses a lot on longer ranges, the 1 bleeds are short, the shield throw is slow and easy to dodge, the magnet pull on toolkit bugs out, turrets lacks a smart function so that they target your target instead of whatever, etc etc. Not to mention the flamewall on FT doesn’t seem to work with projectile finishers unless you stand in them, ground-based skills doesn’t send a bolt of static discharge directly at your foe like with target skills, etc, etc, etc…

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: Wolfheart.1938

Wolfheart.1938

Those are two of the strongest engineers in Europe. I might be wrong, but the HGH Engineer was created or at least made popular by Teldo. Same with the (now impossible) Hundred ‘Nades build. And they don’t need to post on the forums, they’re right there qualifying for tournaments and being top 50 on the leaderboards. Sorry, but you just can’t use an appeal to authority with me.

That being said, I think 1 vs 1 balance in this game is pretty good on a class by class basis, especially considering it’s not the focus. And with that I leave the thread as I’ve said everything I have to say about the matter.

“We have no first-person view because stupid people would lock into it”
“You can’t have more than 10 HS decks because that would confuse people”
“30 fps is more cinematic”

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

“an appeal to authority”? Where do you think you are?

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Posted by: Reikou.7068

Reikou.7068

If you lose a 1v1 he was more skilled regardless of build/balance.

The reason being he chose to engage the 1v1 that he knew he could win, whereas you chose to engage a 1v1 where you didn’t know if you would win, or thought you couldn’t win.

tl;dr, don’t make stupid decisions.

Reikou/Reira/Iroha/Sengiku/Rinoka/Kuruse/Sakuho/Kinae/Yuzusa/Kikurin/Otoha/Hasue/Mioko
https://www.youtube.com/AilesDeLumiere
http://www.twitch.tv/ailesdelumiere

(edited by Reikou.7068)

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

If you lose a 1v1 he was more skilled regardless of build/balance.

The reason being he chose to engage the 1v1 that he knew he could win, whereas you chose to engage a 1v1 where you didn’t know if you would win, or thought you couldn’t win.

tl;dr, don’t make stupid decisions.

You say that, but if you truly think there’s no 1v1 imbalance then I wonder how much you actually pvp.

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Posted by: Scrambles.2604

Scrambles.2604

If you lose a 1v1 he was more skilled regardless of build/balance.

The reason being he chose to engage the 1v1 that he knew he could win, whereas you chose to engage a 1v1 where you didn’t know if you would win, or thought you couldn’t win.

tl;dr, don’t make stupid decisions.

You say that, but if you truly think there’s no 1v1 imbalance then I wonder how much you actually pvp.

if you pvp a lot and think there is no 1v1 balance then maybe your either really good or really bad.

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Posted by: Zepidel.5349

Zepidel.5349

1v1 balance for what? the 1v1 SPvP modes or duels? LOL

The game should be balanced around 5v5 teams, meaning some builds should smash others. I bet you think DotA should be balanced 1v1 aswell.

LoL is an example of a game were they try to make 100+ builds balanced somewhat on a 1v1 level, what you end up with is 100 different builds that are pretty much the kitten same / boring as hell.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

1v1 balance for what? the 1v1 SPvP modes or duels? LOL

The game should be balanced around 5v5 teams, meaning some builds should smash others. I bet you think DotA should be balanced 1v1 aswell.

LoL is an example of a game were they try to make 100+ builds balanced somewhat on a 1v1 level, what you end up with is 100 different builds that are pretty much the kitten same / boring as hell.

Did you even read the OP…?

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Posted by: Copestetic.5174

Copestetic.5174

I think if they start splitting PvE skills from PvP, you’ll get your balance. As it stands though, they’re focused on sPvP balance more than 1vs1’ers, as well they should be. Once they get a leash on it, it’ll start trickling down to you guys.

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Posted by: Zepidel.5349

Zepidel.5349

1v1 balance for what? the 1v1 SPvP modes or duels? LOL

The game should be balanced around 5v5 teams, meaning some builds should smash others. I bet you think DotA should be balanced 1v1 aswell.

LoL is an example of a game were they try to make 100+ builds balanced somewhat on a 1v1 level, what you end up with is 100 different builds that are pretty much the kitten same / boring as hell.

Did you even read the OP…?

You CANT have both

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

1v1 balance for what? the 1v1 SPvP modes or duels? LOL

The game should be balanced around 5v5 teams, meaning some builds should smash others. I bet you think DotA should be balanced 1v1 aswell.

LoL is an example of a game were they try to make 100+ builds balanced somewhat on a 1v1 level, what you end up with is 100 different builds that are pretty much the kitten same / boring as hell.

Did you even read the OP…?

You CANT have both

Tons of other MMORPG’s did it, so your argument is invalid. And let me clarify that I mean balance that the majority is happy with, not PERFECT balance, as that is, indeed, impossible.

(edited by Oxstar.7643)

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Posted by: Zepidel.5349

Zepidel.5349

1v1 balance for what? the 1v1 SPvP modes or duels? LOL

The game should be balanced around 5v5 teams, meaning some builds should smash others. I bet you think DotA should be balanced 1v1 aswell.

LoL is an example of a game were they try to make 100+ builds balanced somewhat on a 1v1 level, what you end up with is 100 different builds that are pretty much the kitten same / boring as hell.

Did you even read the OP…?

You CANT have both

Tons of other MMORPG’s did it, so your argument is invalid. And let me clarify that I mean balance that the majority is happy with, not PERFECT balance, as that is, indeed, impossible.

Lets just make every class the same then

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

1v1 balance for what? the 1v1 SPvP modes or duels? LOL

The game should be balanced around 5v5 teams, meaning some builds should smash others. I bet you think DotA should be balanced 1v1 aswell.

LoL is an example of a game were they try to make 100+ builds balanced somewhat on a 1v1 level, what you end up with is 100 different builds that are pretty much the kitten same / boring as hell.

Did you even read the OP…?

You CANT have both

Tons of other MMORPG’s did it, so your argument is invalid. And let me clarify that I mean balance that the majority is happy with, not PERFECT balance, as that is, indeed, impossible.

Lets just make every class the same then

Now you’re just being silly.

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Posted by: data.4093

data.4093

1v1 balance will not be achieved, it does not exist. You can all cry “imbalanced” a million times when you lose but a lot of times it’s due to the other person getting the jump on you, knowing the fight more than you(this was a HUGE part of GW1), having a well-equipped build or they were just better overall than you. Should Anet work on major imbalances? Yes of course. But there are other things that need work in pvp too like cast bars or distinct animations.

As for team fight pvp, what is balance? There are only 5 players on a team and 8 classes so what is this mythical “balance”? Both teams using the same composition?…

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Posted by: Copestetic.5174

Copestetic.5174

I’m trying to figure out how PvP should be balanced in 1vs1 situations. I mean, in theory it sounds great. In reality however, it’s not something that can be done in Guild Wars 2. Each profession has a counter profession. Even with the crappy Meta we have atm, a KD/Stun-lock War is the bane of a Necromancer or Engineer, but against other professions, Necros and Engi’s are really strong depending on the player/build.

Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 is built on a rock-paper-scissors system. It’s because of this, that it’s a team-based game. Match-ups in 1vs1 will never be 100% ( or even 70% ) fair/balanced, unless it’s between the same professions, and even then, you have to factor in the builds of each player and their personal skill levels.

Again though, I think once they get on a roll with balances and when ( not if ) they start splitting PvP and PvE skills, 1vs1’ers will have a better form of balance. As it stands, no format has that.

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Posted by: Sylentir.8913

Sylentir.8913

1v1 should be 50% build, 50% skill (But some, such as I, consider proper building to be a form of skill :P). For example, I can build my engineer to hardcounter thieves unless they vastly outskill me, but then a guardian wrecks me unless I vastly outskill them. This type of balance should be maintained: you should have good matchups, bad matchups, and the ability to discern which is which.

Talia Gallowglass [Few] ~ Sylvari Engineer Main
Ferguson’s Crossing

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Posted by: ShadowPuppet.3746

ShadowPuppet.3746

1v1 balance will not be achieved, it does not exist. You can all cry “imbalanced” a million times when you lose but a lot of times it’s due to the other person getting the jump on you, knowing the fight more than you(this was a HUGE part of GW1), having a well-equipped build or they were just better overall than you. Should Anet work on major imbalances? Yes of course. But there are other things that need work in pvp too like cast bars or distinct animations.

As for team fight pvp, what is balance? There are only 5 players on a team and 8 classes so what is this mythical “balance”? Both teams using the same composition?…

^So much this….
It’s also the reason I dislike allowing the community to be involved so closely with perceived “balance”. I am sure some of the top tPvP’ers are great guys or gals, but I find it hard to believe that they can be as impartial as they often claim. They really do need to actually look at “balance” in the three game modes separately, those being sPvP, PvE, and WvW. The top tPvP’ers probably care little for the other game modes and so I doubt highly that they ever consider changes that should be made from those perspectives. Ultimately it falls upon Anet to decide how they are going to implement their “balance” for classes but using people that probably only care for one portion of the game and are also inclined to believe that is the only portion of the game that matters is just terrible from a design standpoint on the part of the developers when the changes affect all game modes and types.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

1v1 should be 50% build, 50% skill (But some, such as I, consider proper building to be a form of skill :P). For example, I can build my engineer to hardcounter thieves unless they vastly outskill me, but then a guardian wrecks me unless I vastly outskill them. This type of balance should be maintained: you should have good matchups, bad matchups, and the ability to discern which is which.

Isn’t this rock paper scissor system something ANet said they want to avoid?

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Posted by: Lagg.3960

Lagg.3960

You got owned? You were scissors, he was rock.

You owned him? You were scissors, he was paper.

Hey, I just bash you, and this is frenzy,
But here’s my Wammo, so heal me maybe?

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

You got owned? You were scissors, he was rock.

You owned him? You were scissors, he was paper.

So you approve of such a system?

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Posted by: crestpiemangler.7631

crestpiemangler.7631

It’s sad, because developers try to propagate lies like “it’s impossible to balance in PvP”, then they post on their blogs how you only need to know trivial high school geometry to be a game designer.

It’s almost downright insulting to see them impose their personal limitations on the industry, but as long as they keep their fans spoon-fed the lies, they’ll keep them happy.

I’ve played games that are much more complex than GW2, but with much better 1v1/2v2 balance.

Of course, one could argue that the lack of 1v1/XvX with X < 5 is completely redundant, because there are no situations where a strict XvX naturally arises .

Yet, if it is too complicated to balance around “1v1” in the perfect sense, then 5v5, or anything that is more than order of magnitude greater in depth/complexity (obviously from the fact that usually N choose N/2 is necessarily greater than N choose 1 for most games) must be impossible as well.

That having been typed, I’m not saying that the lack of 1v1 balance in this game implies a lack of 5v5 balance; I haven’t invested enough time in competitive SPvP to form a valid opinion.

If anybody who has could give us all a little insight, it would be nice.

(edited by crestpiemangler.7631)

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Posted by: Xae Isareth.1364

Xae Isareth.1364

To be honest, IMO debs should never listen to player feedback when it comes to balance. Why? Because there is just too much subjectivity.

You got people who just want their class to be the best, you got people who just can’t play against a certain style and thus calls said style OP, you got people who are just emotionally affected a bit too much after a loss to a certain class and thus begins a crusade to nerf that class to the ground, and the list just goes on and on.

In terms of class balancing, this is going to be a bit of a wild one but… what if we just got rid of classes altogether? Let everyone choose whatever skills to use for each weapon, whatever trait lines they want, and use a system to determine what armour you get to wear based on the above?

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Posted by: ShadowPuppet.3746

ShadowPuppet.3746

1v1 should be 50% build, 50% skill (But some, such as I, consider proper building to be a form of skill :P). For example, I can build my engineer to hardcounter thieves unless they vastly outskill me, but then a guardian wrecks me unless I vastly outskill them. This type of balance should be maintained: you should have good matchups, bad matchups, and the ability to discern which is which.

Isn’t this rock paper scissor system something ANet said they want to avoid?

How do you balance in a not rock paper scissors context without everything being turned into a homogeneous clone of one another? I don’t think it can really be done without basically making all skills and classes function the same way and just giving them different skins.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

1v1 should be 50% build, 50% skill (But some, such as I, consider proper building to be a form of skill :P). For example, I can build my engineer to hardcounter thieves unless they vastly outskill me, but then a guardian wrecks me unless I vastly outskill them. This type of balance should be maintained: you should have good matchups, bad matchups, and the ability to discern which is which.

Isn’t this rock paper scissor system something ANet said they want to avoid?

How do you balance in a not rock paper scissors context without everything being turned into a homogeneous clone of one another? I don’t think it can really be done without basically making all skills and classes function the same way and just giving them different skins.

The community wouldn’t mind, all they think about is skins.
All jokes asides, it’s okay that builds can counter builds, as long as every class has a counter build to every class. But the rock paper scissor system should not apply in base mechanics for a classm, I.E, one class shouldn’t own another per default.

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: ShadowPuppet.3746

ShadowPuppet.3746

To be honest, IMO debs should never listen to player feedback when it comes to balance. Why? Because there is just too much subjectivity.

You got people who just want their class to be the best, you got people who just can’t play against a certain style and thus calls said style OP, you got people who are just emotionally affected a bit too much after a loss to a certain class and thus begins a crusade to nerf that class to the ground, and the list just goes on and on.

In terms of class balancing, this is going to be a bit of a wild one but… what if we just got rid of classes altogether? Let everyone choose whatever skills to use for each weapon, whatever trait lines they want, and use a system to determine what armour you get to wear based on the above?

I actually like this idea to an extent, it’s a similar system to one that is used in champs online for the subscribers (non subscribers are stuck in choosing a archetype). The only issue with it then becomes you have to balance each skill and possible skill combination against the other. The end result was there were certain build types that were just vastly superior to others, sure some people intentionally took the build options that were not as strong to show off their skill, but the actual “balance” in that pvp was pretty friggin horrible but it made for some fun times trying to figure out all the different options available to you. At this point in GW2 though I would not expect to ever see anything remotely like this since it would be a complete redesign of the systems they have in place.

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: Deamhan.9538

Deamhan.9538

I agree with the op.

You balance 1v1 and this will pull the XvX play into balance requiring only tweeks.

Anyway, if;

A = B
B = C
C = D

Then;

A = C
A = D
B = D

This also means that;

AB = CD
AC = BD
AD = BC

And so you can see where groups come in. If the classes are balanced individually, then putting them together into teams should leave the teams balanced already.

There are only two issues;

1. If they are not balanced individually, when/if you pair up two stronger classes against two weaker classes, this would amplify the pre existing imbalance.

2. One class’s skills may compliment well with another class’s skills but then conflict with yet another class’s. Only then would there need to be some changes made but any changes to be made must not disrupt the existing balance on the individual level.

If you are balancing on a XvX basis and disregard balance on the individual basis, then you are putting yourself into a situation where you will be forever chasing your own tail. Any balance changes based on a particular group composition, with a complete disregard to balance on an individual level, will no doubt create such an imbalance.

The result is throwing a different group composition’s balance further out as grouping up classes that are not individually balance will amplify such an imbalance.

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: ShadowPuppet.3746

ShadowPuppet.3746

1v1 should be 50% build, 50% skill (But some, such as I, consider proper building to be a form of skill :P). For example, I can build my engineer to hardcounter thieves unless they vastly outskill me, but then a guardian wrecks me unless I vastly outskill them. This type of balance should be maintained: you should have good matchups, bad matchups, and the ability to discern which is which.

Isn’t this rock paper scissor system something ANet said they want to avoid?

How do you balance in a not rock paper scissors context without everything being turned into a homogeneous clone of one another? I don’t think it can really be done without basically making all skills and classes function the same way and just giving them different skins.

The community wouldn’t mind, all they think about is skins.
All jokes asides, it’s okay that builds can counter builds, as long as every class has a counter build to every class. But the rock paper scissor system should not apply in base mechanics for a classm, I.E, one class shouldn’t own another per default.

I agree to that, but perhaps you could be specific and tell me which profession you think owns another by default because of their mechanic?

(edited by ShadowPuppet.3746)

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: Sylentir.8913

Sylentir.8913

1v1 should be 50% build, 50% skill (But some, such as I, consider proper building to be a form of skill :P). For example, I can build my engineer to hardcounter thieves unless they vastly outskill me, but then a guardian wrecks me unless I vastly outskill them. This type of balance should be maintained: you should have good matchups, bad matchups, and the ability to discern which is which.

Isn’t this rock paper scissor system something ANet said they want to avoid?

It shouldn’t be pure rock-paper-scissors. As I said, there should be an element of skill to it. My quadturret build trumps most thieves, but I’ve met a number who know how to successfully beat it (lots of stealth and/or thieves guild, destroy turrets, kill the now-exposed engie). They have an uphill battle, but they still can win. Likewise, while most guardians know how to make use of stability to survive my quadturret easily, those that don’t get easily shoved around.

I personally think 50/50 is a good number, because there should be good and bad matchups. No aspect of the game is designed to be 1v1 PvP: roaming is best done with a small group; zergfighting is done with well, a zerg; and sPvP is done with four other teammates. Skill is just as much knowing how to fight as it is knowing who to fight. You see someone who’ll likely stomp your face, and you ask a teammate to deal with them for you.

Talia Gallowglass [Few] ~ Sylvari Engineer Main
Ferguson’s Crossing

1v1 balance should not be ignored.

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Posted by: Daishi.6027

Daishi.6027

Currently certain builds carry players much more than skill, problem is when it takes skill out of the equation it becomes more Rock, Paper, Scissors. And every so often you get shotgun that just wrecks everything 1v1.

I do not think true 1v1 balance will ever be archived but there’s needs to be some sort of play where even though its not always going to be 50/50, then skill is involved.The game should strive for it to be more toward 40/60 or 35/65, then skill is involved. For all 1v1 situations.

We used to have ok balance in 5v5 when the top 1v1 builds like BM ranger and Phantasm mesmer were not really good enough to run more than one per team, essentially being not very good in a well structured team fight. This gave more play on a 3 point game, giving builds the option to hold out on a point or push a defender off it.

Problem is now we have no even ground. Team fights are spam and the builds that are good 1v1 are strong team fighters even if supporters, and the worst part yet is that they are carried by the build, so little to no skill even comes into play in 1v1 scenarios.

Realistically the problem lies in what you want to accomplish and Skill in = power out. Right now a lot of builds have Skill in < Power out, and you can literally click and win vs r40-r50s not that rank matters but it does show level of experience.

And then other issues where Skill in > Power out, like for example a glass cannon shatter mesmer trying to out play a BM ranger, even if his shatters periodically land there’s no way for the mesmer to get past the rangers passive regens is, and the ranger will just auto attack him to death.

Skill in > Power out is situational based on a case by case basis but it only breeds more players to roll the click to win options and this creates the initial problem.

How to fix? IMO the builds that can click to win need to be toned down, I get how there are older players who either don’t have good reaction time or who are lost in the fast paced nature of the game. But these builds should not dominate the more clutch builds, because then good players will run them anyways and just be unstoppable. Realistically they should be strong enough to compete but not strong enough to dominate.

Also 1v1 HAS to be a considerable factor even if not true balance. Apart form 5v5 since it will happen on side points and the games is Supposed to be skill based, not build carry rock, paper, scissors. With sometimes shotgun.

“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”