Guild Wars 2

People can play an hour of skyrim but cannot play an hour for a raid?" This seems to be more of a personal choice then actually being casual.

You can play any game casually as you want to, if all you want to do is play 15 min here and there then your best bet is playing some indie games off steam or your phone.

Again where did all of these complaints come from suddenly, the raids have been here for a while. Where is this entitlement thing coming from? I could go on and on about how the core open world is to easy, but no I just enjoy it for what it is because I know I can do harder content once I reach hot.

Doesn’t matter if you are pro or against raids, right or wrong, you have to admit that they created one of the biggest community divide in GW2 history.

Djinn.9245:

Razor.9872:

Djinn.9245:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Holy, dude… take a chill pill. You could have invested your time instead of writing this to a raid boss and mastering your class. It’s not that hard and if you don’t like it, don’t do it. There’s enough content for everyone.

When Anet introduces new lore ONLY accessible in raids, that is definitely something to complain about.

Correction: Anet indroduced new lore accessible in raid instances. That is not something worth complaining about, because anyone can gain access to a cleared raid instance — without even having to fight anything. That is about as close to casual as one can get; you can experience the entirety of the raid storyline as a point-n-click adventure. It’s even easier than the personal story.

I wasn’t aware that I could just access a cleared raid instance whenever I wanted. Please tell me how I can do this.

You already had an explanation for this, but there is more to it. ANet confirmed that the lore behind the Raids is not only limited to Raid instances. If you’ve paid attention you have found that the White Mantle storyline has found its way into open world PvE as well, through the Current Events updates (the bandit champions in Krytan maps, the Executioner, the ley line events in Snowden Drifts, Mount Maelstrom and Blazeridge Steppes). ANet does not want pivotal parts of the story to be limited to Raids only. Wait for LS3 and you’ll see that you won’t be missing much of the White Mantle storyline.

People are getting impatient, that is the only legitimate concern I can think of. But this is an MMO. Updates won’t be there every week, or every month even. They need to work on it, balance it, test it before they release it. And they’ve confirmed long ago that the sizeable updates will now only come on a 3 month basis. MMO’s play the long game, but in this day and age people want instant gratification more and more. They don’t want it tomorrow, not even today, they wanted it yesterday. Just do other stuff in the meantime, take a break from the game even. You won’t lose anything over it. Come back when open world PvE stuff is released, or LS3 is starting. ANet has had to deal with some internal issues, but now that they’re dealt with they’re working hard on future content. Or do you want them to rush it and deliver subpar content?

Manthas.6234:

Doesn’t matter if you are pro or against raids, right or wrong, you have to admit that they created one of the biggest community divide in GW2 history.

Nope. Just nope. That division has been there for a very long time already. The problem isn’t Raids, it’s the lack of sympathy and empathy from one group (the so-called elitists) to the other (the so-called casuals). People who Raid are glad that GW2 now also offers some content that challenges their skills. People who don’t Raid feel left out and that’s never a good feeling. But this game has so much to offer, and all the “casual” content is still there. I don’t where this feeling of entitlement comes from, but it’s misguided. No, you don’t have to do everything that’s in the game. Nobody is entitled to any and all parts of the game being catered to their specific needs. If you don’t like Raids or don’t have the skill to do it, then don’t. LS3 will fill in the story gaps and besides that there is plenty in the game that is suitable for the “I play however I want” way. ANet is not making this game for any one person. They’re making it for all of us, so they have to keep as many of us happy as they can. About 10 to 15% of the game’s population plays Raids, which is a hell of a lot more than any other MMO Raids. These people would’ve been gone. And while some people might have been happy about that, they don’t see how that can come back and bite them in the kitten . Be glad ANet also caters to the more hardcore players. The bigger the community, the better. The only real problem is that people forgot how to be nice to each other, to respect everyone for who they are and what they can do, not berate them for what they’re not and can’t do.

TheNecrosanct.4028:

Manthas.6234:

Doesn’t matter if you are pro or against raids, right or wrong, you have to admit that they created one of the biggest community divide in GW2 history.

Nope. Just nope. That division has been there for a very long time already. The problem isn’t Raids, it’s the lack of sympathy and empathy from one group (the so-called elitists) to the other (the so-called casuals). People who Raid are glad that GW2 now also offers some content that challenges their skills. People who don’t Raid feel left out and that’s never a good feeling. But this game has so much to offer, and all the “casual” content is still there. I don’t where this feeling of entitlement comes from, but it’s misguided. No, you don’t have to do everything that’s in the game. Nobody is entitled to any and all parts of the game being catered to their specific needs. If you don’t like Raids or don’t have the skill to do it, then don’t. LS3 will fill in the story gaps and besides that there is plenty in the game that is suitable for the “I play however I want” way. ANet is not making this game for any one person. They’re making it for all of us, so they have to keep as many of us happy as they can. About 10 to 15% of the game’s population plays Raids, which is a hell of a lot more than any other MMO Raids. These people would’ve been gone. And while some people might have been happy about that, they don’t see how that can come back and bite them in the kitten . Be glad ANet also caters to the more hardcore players. The bigger the community, the better. The only real problem is that people forgot how to be nice to each other, to respect everyone for who they are and what they can do, not berate them for what they’re not and can’t do.

I can tell you exactly where the feeling comes from. It’s not that raids and PvP seasons are in the game. It’s that the raids and PvP seasons are in our face….up on the event bar. I can’t remove them, I don’t know about you.

Yet to get content I enjoy, I have to wait. I’ve waited through three raid wings and two PvP seasons so far, and I still haven’t had anything I feel like I can sink my teeth into.

While it’s true we did get a revamp of the new zones, and that helped some. by the time that came out, I’d already done most of what I wanted to do the hard away anyway.

So yeah, three raid wings, three PvP seasons and very little for my play style.

First, give me the ability to get this annoucement off my front page. Secondly give me something to play other than say a bandit bounty every day. If we’d had other content, and this stuff wasn’t being pushed so hard (and it certainly feels like it’s being pushed) there’d be a lot less of a problem.

Vayne to counter your argument, I have been waiting through 3 years of PvE content for raids to come to this game. Now some will say I should go play something else, but this is where my friends are and I enjoy every mode in the game. But I have been waiting for something to challenge me since I got my solo of Lupi.

In GW1, we had hard group content, UW, FoW, Urgots, the Deep. Here we didn’t really have that group content until raids came into the game. Now I have everything I want in this game, I got my PvP, my WvW(I was in love with DAoC so GW2 rang back to the day) the fun PvE stuff to hang out with friends, and Now I got my hard content.

Vayne.8563:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

Manthas.6234:

Doesn’t matter if you are pro or against raids, right or wrong, you have to admit that they created one of the biggest community divide in GW2 history.

Nope. Just nope. That division has been there for a very long time already. The problem isn’t Raids, it’s the lack of sympathy and empathy from one group (the so-called elitists) to the other (the so-called casuals). People who Raid are glad that GW2 now also offers some content that challenges their skills. People who don’t Raid feel left out and that’s never a good feeling. But this game has so much to offer, and all the “casual” content is still there. I don’t where this feeling of entitlement comes from, but it’s misguided. No, you don’t have to do everything that’s in the game. Nobody is entitled to any and all parts of the game being catered to their specific needs. If you don’t like Raids or don’t have the skill to do it, then don’t. LS3 will fill in the story gaps and besides that there is plenty in the game that is suitable for the “I play however I want” way. ANet is not making this game for any one person. They’re making it for all of us, so they have to keep as many of us happy as they can. About 10 to 15% of the game’s population plays Raids, which is a hell of a lot more than any other MMO Raids. These people would’ve been gone. And while some people might have been happy about that, they don’t see how that can come back and bite them in the kitten . Be glad ANet also caters to the more hardcore players. The bigger the community, the better. The only real problem is that people forgot how to be nice to each other, to respect everyone for who they are and what they can do, not berate them for what they’re not and can’t do.

I can tell you exactly where the feeling comes from. It’s not that raids and PvP seasons are in the game. It’s that the raids and PvP seasons are in our face….up on the event bar. I can’t remove them, I don’t know about you.

Yet to get content I enjoy, I have to wait. I’ve waited through three raid wings and two PvP seasons so far, and I still haven’t had anything I feel like I can sink my teeth into.

While it’s true we did get a revamp of the new zones, and that helped some. by the time that came out, I’d already done most of what I wanted to do the hard away anyway.

So yeah, three raid wings, three PvP seasons and very little for my play style.

First, give me the ability to get this annoucement off my front page. Secondly give me something to play other than say a bandit bounty every day. If we’d had other content, and this stuff wasn’t being pushed so hard (and it certainly feels like it’s being pushed) there’d be a lot less of a problem.

So basically your problem is marketing, that notice you can’t remove and will always be confronted with. The problem is not the notice, but the perceiver. I haven’t PvP’ed in ages, certainly not since HoT was released, because it doesn’t really capture my interest. But those notices do nothing to me. The same goes for the tournament notices that pop in loading screens. I just don’t care about them (the notices). I see it, but that’s it. If that gets under your skin, or if you feel you are left out because you are constantly reminded of something through a notice, is that really because of the notice? It’s like commercials on TV. They’re so inconsequential that I won’t even let them influence me when I see them. It’s the same for this. Just don’t put any energy into it.

Content drought, that’s an argument I can understand a lot better. I felt the same way in the time between HoT’s announcement and the day it was released. But ANet has given us communication updates in the meantime, and a rough idea about what they are planning for the future. MMO’s, by their very nature, have to play the long game. That means it takes time to implement quality. I know many of today’s youth are not very strong in the patience department, but then again, you (and I, being 39) are not part of today’s youth anymore. I have no problems waiting while other people get their preferred content in the meantime. Your posts are a lot more mature than most who criticize this current situation, but it does all come down to the same thing. They can’t please everyone at once and produce quality content at the same time. And their new quarterly release schedule basically guarantees that everyone has to have patience at some time while this game goes on. I’ll have to wait for any more new challenging content, but I don’t mind. Luckily I am one of those people who enjoys more than one thing in this game (very much looking forward to LS3 and the continuation of the story) and even though I am an avid Raider in this game I don’t look down on the more casual, open world content. That is Tyria, the world I’ve come to love, and anything PvE related will be anxiously awaited by me.

What I’m trying to say is, it’s up to each individual person how they deal with it. I don’t see the notices as a problem because marketing in general doesn’t have much impact on me. I know what I like and don’t like. But when part of the community berates the other because they get their preferred content and the others don’t, that’s just childish behavior, in my honest opinion. I’m not saying that you are childish, just to be clear; this is a general statement, not a personal one. I’ve been reading your posts for a while now on this Forum and you’re always eloquent and concise, polite and open-minded. I get that marketing can be annoying at times, but it’s up to us how much attention we pay to it.

Vayne.8563:

Yet to get content I enjoy, I have to wait. I’ve waited through three raid wings and two PvP seasons so far, and I still haven’t had anything I feel like I can sink my teeth into.

You got HoT. This was a bunch of PvE content that dropped all at once. It’s unfortunate that Anet has not provided additional open PvE content and/or story since HoT. It’s also unfortunate that HoT has not lasted as long in some posters eyes as XPac’s are expected to last in other games. If people want to sling blame for the PvE content gaps, they should be looking at the real culprits. These, in my mind, are:

• The people who insisted ANet adopt an XPac model. ANet may be innovative in some ways, but XPac’s in MMO’s always represent lengthy waits in between, so it does not surprise me that GW2 has the same content gaps other MMO’s using an XPac model have.
• The revamp of HoT.

Instanced group PvE and PvP represent the second and third most ignored demographics in the community. The HoT raid dropped over eight months rather than all at once. Sometimes I think there would be less complaining about content gaps if ANet had dropped HoT open PvE piecemeal, also. Then again, if they’d done that and still charged $50 for it, there would have been a ton more complaints about “Not worth it!”

TheNecrosanct.4028:

Manthas.6234:

Doesn’t matter if you are pro or against raids, right or wrong, you have to admit that they created one of the biggest community divide in GW2 history.

Nope. Just nope. That division has been there for a very long time already. The problem isn’t Raids, it’s the lack of sympathy and empathy from one group (the so-called elitists) to the other (the so-called casuals). People who Raid are glad that GW2 now also offers some content that challenges their skills. People who don’t Raid feel left out and that’s never a good feeling. But this game has so much to offer, and all the “casual” content is still there. I don’t where this feeling of entitlement comes from, but it’s misguided. No, you don’t have to do everything that’s in the game. Nobody is entitled to any and all parts of the game being catered to their specific needs. If you don’t like Raids or don’t have the skill to do it, then don’t. LS3 will fill in the story gaps and besides that there is plenty in the game that is suitable for the “I play however I want” way. ANet is not making this game for any one person. They’re making it for all of us, so they have to keep as many of us happy as they can. About 10 to 15% of the game’s population plays Raids, which is a hell of a lot more than any other MMO Raids. These people would’ve been gone. And while some people might have been happy about that, they don’t see how that can come back and bite them in the kitten . Be glad ANet also caters to the more hardcore players. The bigger the community, the better. The only real problem is that people forgot how to be nice to each other, to respect everyone for who they are and what they can do, not berate them for what they’re not and can’t do.

Was there? As far I as can remember, most of the people agreed that GW2 needed more challenging content. Even when the raids were announced people welcomed the news. Only WHEN the raids came out, some people realised that they are not really like some of those ‘casuals’ have originaly envisioned.

Yes, some people may have shared their concerns earlier, but you can’t really compare those few to the posters against raids coming and going for a half a year or more. That’s why I used the key phrase ‘one of the biggest’. And before you ask me to prove my statements, yes, I only base them on my personal observations.

Manthas.6234:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

Manthas.6234:

Doesn’t matter if you are pro or against raids, right or wrong, you have to admit that they created one of the biggest community divide in GW2 history.

Nope. Just nope. That division has been there for a very long time already. The problem isn’t Raids, it’s the lack of sympathy and empathy from one group (the so-called elitists) to the other (the so-called casuals). People who Raid are glad that GW2 now also offers some content that challenges their skills. People who don’t Raid feel left out and that’s never a good feeling. But this game has so much to offer, and all the “casual” content is still there. I don’t where this feeling of entitlement comes from, but it’s misguided. No, you don’t have to do everything that’s in the game. Nobody is entitled to any and all parts of the game being catered to their specific needs. If you don’t like Raids or don’t have the skill to do it, then don’t. LS3 will fill in the story gaps and besides that there is plenty in the game that is suitable for the “I play however I want” way. ANet is not making this game for any one person. They’re making it for all of us, so they have to keep as many of us happy as they can. About 10 to 15% of the game’s population plays Raids, which is a hell of a lot more than any other MMO Raids. These people would’ve been gone. And while some people might have been happy about that, they don’t see how that can come back and bite them in the kitten . Be glad ANet also caters to the more hardcore players. The bigger the community, the better. The only real problem is that people forgot how to be nice to each other, to respect everyone for who they are and what they can do, not berate them for what they’re not and can’t do.

Was there? As far I as can remember, most of the people agreed that GW2 needed more challenging content. Even when the raids were announced people welcomed the news. Only WHEN the raids came out, some people realised that they are not really like some of those ‘casuals’ have originaly envisioned.

Yes, some people may have shared their concerns earlier, but you can’t really compare those few to the posters against raids coming and going for a half a year or more. That’s why I used the key phrase ‘one of the biggest’. And before you ask me to prove my statements, yes, I only base them on my personal observations.

I’m not asking for proof. We all perceive what we perceive. Personally I have seen responses and complaints about Raids in GW2 the moment they announced it would be a feature of HoT, and not a few either. Because the term Raid is kind of a loaded term, and what it usually implies is not something a lot of people in GW2 like, because the game is/was (debatable, but not here) oriented to casuals. But it depends on where you look what you see.

But yes, the division has been there longer. It was the same in the old dungeon days. Speed clears and “elitist” runs against pugging, playing how you like and just having fun. With neither side realizing that fun is subjective and one shouldn’t force one’s own perception of what’s fun on someone else, who has his/her own perception of it. Perhaps Raids have made that clash more visible than the dungeon meta did, because Raids actually do have prerequisites which you have to meet our you will fail. Dungeons don’t have that. Whatever you take inside will eventually clear that dungeon, but that’s not the case with Raids. The fact that there’s story involved and the casual players don’t get to see that incites them even more, understandably. ANet’s reassurance that they will not be left out and LS3 will fill in any gaps for people who have never set foot in the Forsaken Thicket doesn’t seem to help. The fact that it has rewards only obtainable by successfully clearing the Raid also doesn’t help. There are plenty of rewards in GW2 tied to specific content, but as long as it’s within reach of the majority it’s all fine.

And this is a logical response from a community of a casual oriented game. But MMO’s attract more than just those kinds of people and for it to be successful it has to cater to all people. And with that you’ll have to accept that not everything they do will be of your liking. But that’s only because not everything is meant for everyone. I don’t see that being any different in any other MMO. And then comes out the argument that ANet wants to be innovative and do things their own way, not the traditional way, and so shouldn’t do things like Raids and gate specific rewards behind it.

So yes, in general terms I do feel this debate has been going on for years now. The content focused on is different, but the same arguments are being used by the same general groups of people. And it’s the Internet, so they can throw in any attitude they want because, “Whatever”. Raids will not destroy the GW2 community. And it didn’t create a divide, it only inflammated an already existing one. That is what I have perceived.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

I want to know this.
I want to know what this casual player sees himself doing in an MMO.

Casual content is that you can start right after you logged in and last 15 mins top.

Hjorje.9453:

Vayne to counter your argument, I have been waiting through 3 years of PvE content for raids to come to this game. Now some will say I should go play something else, but this is where my friends are and I enjoy every mode in the game. But I have been waiting for something to challenge me since I got my solo of Lupi.

In GW1, we had hard group content, UW, FoW, Urgots, the Deep. Here we didn’t really have that group content until raids came into the game. Now I have everything I want in this game, I got my PvP, my WvW(I was in love with DAoC so GW2 rang back to the day) the fun PvE stuff to hang out with friends, and Now I got my hard content.

Not sure how this counters my argument. Even if you’ve been waiting for 3 years for this, a whole bunch of players who don’t like raids are getting very little by way of updates and they’re angry about it.

If Anet had released an easier mode raid at the same time, which less rewards, at least we’d have had content. Instead they chose something that not everyone is interested in, and guess what, it’s not just Anet’s problem it’s everyone’s problem. If people walk away from this game because they’re nothing to do, some of them will return but not all of them.

What Anet did was build a vegetarian restaurant and then, after 3.5 years and building a large clientele, they started offering meat. Some people are going to walk away from that restaurant, because they perceive the focus is changing.

That’s one thing about MMOs. People take ownership of them. They buy into the idea that this game is MY game. It was made with me in mind. For a long time I was able to say that. I can’t really say it as much any more.

As much as I enjoy the game, and as much fun as I still have, there are elements in the game that make me feel like it’s no longer my game. And that’s a problem, not just for me, but for everyone who plays. You can’t really make a group of players who felt like the game was for them feel like second class citizens and not expect backlash. That backlash isn’t just felt by Anet. It’s felt by everyone who plays the game.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Yet to get content I enjoy, I have to wait. I’ve waited through three raid wings and two PvP seasons so far, and I still haven’t had anything I feel like I can sink my teeth into.

You got HoT. This was a bunch of PvE content that dropped all at once. It’s unfortunate that Anet has not provided additional open PvE content and/or story since HoT. It’s also unfortunate that HoT has not lasted as long in some posters eyes as XPac’s are expected to last in other games. If people want to sling blame for the PvE content gaps, they should be looking at the real culprits. These, in my mind, are:

• The people who insisted ANet adopt an XPac model. ANet may be innovative in some ways, but XPac’s in MMO’s always represent lengthy waits in between, so it does not surprise me that GW2 has the same content gaps other MMO’s using an XPac model have.
• The revamp of HoT.

Instanced group PvE and PvP represent the second and third most ignored demographics in the community. The HoT raid dropped over eight months rather than all at once. Sometimes I think there would be less complaining about content gaps if ANet had dropped HoT open PvE piecemeal, also. Then again, if they’d done that and still charged $50 for it, there would have been a ton more complaints about “Not worth it!”

I did get HoT…in November, I believe. That’s a long time ago. A long time without a serious update to stuff I’m interested in.

I’m happy enough with HoT and the April update made me happier, but I’ve already got every one of the order’s ascended back packs, I already have all the mistlock armor, I already have all the elite specialization weapons and I’m working on Nevermore right now. The truth is, there’s not a great deal for me to work on now besides legendaries.

I’ve finished the personal story on 17 characters. I’ve finished LS Season 2 and HoT story on a number of characters as well. I’m working on a couple of achievements, but I really feel a bit like I’m picking on bones right now.

If HOT was an expansion that was light on content because it rewrote the game, Anet needed to have more stuff coming sooner, or people are going to get bored.

I like the game. I’ve always enjoyed HoT. I strongly suspect I’d like HoT better now if I enjoyed farming, which I really don’t.

And the PvP season, which I’ve participated in due to lack of other viable stuff to do has pretty much ruined the game for me. If I raided too, I’d probably leave.

It’s too much setup time for me. Too much regimented stuff. I just want to log in and play. I don’t want to go through the effort of finding a group. That was the power of this game for me.

I still think the LS will come out and all this will go away. But I can get why people are frustrated.

TheNecrosanct.4028:

I’m not asking for proof. We all perceive what we perceive. Personally I have seen responses and complaints about Raids in GW2 the moment they announced it would be a feature of HoT, and not a few either. Because the term Raid is kind of a loaded term, and what it usually implies is not something a lot of people in GW2 like, because the game is/was (debatable, but not here) oriented to casuals. But it depends on where you look what you see.

But yes, the division has been there longer. It was the same in the old dungeon days. Speed clears and “elitist” runs against pugging, playing how you like and just having fun. With neither side realizing that fun is subjective and one shouldn’t force one’s own perception of what’s fun on someone else, who has his/her own perception of it. Perhaps Raids have made that clash more visible than the dungeon meta did, because Raids actually do have prerequisites which you have to meet our you will fail. Dungeons don’t have that. Whatever you take inside will eventually clear that dungeon, but that’s not the case with Raids. The fact that there’s story involved and the casual players don’t get to see that incites them even more, understandably. ANet’s reassurance that they will not be left out and LS3 will fill in any gaps for people who have never set foot in the Forsaken Thicket doesn’t seem to help. The fact that it has rewards only obtainable by successfully clearing the Raid also doesn’t help. There are plenty of rewards in GW2 tied to specific content, but as long as it’s within reach of the majority it’s all fine.

And this is a logical response from a community of a casual oriented game. But MMO’s attract more than just those kinds of people and for it to be successful it has to cater to all people. And with that you’ll have to accept that not everything they do will be of your liking. But that’s only because not everything is meant for everyone. I don’t see that being any different in any other MMO. And then comes out the argument that ANet wants to be innovative and do things their own way, not the traditional way, and so shouldn’t do things like Raids and gate specific rewards behind it.

So yes, in general terms I do feel this debate has been going on for years now. The content focused on is different, but the same arguments are being used by the same general groups of people. And it’s the Internet, so they can throw in any attitude they want because, “Whatever”. Raids will not destroy the GW2 community. And it didn’t create a divide, it only inflammated an already existing one. That is what I have perceived.

Well, as you said it yourself, raids haven’t really helped in bringing the community together. And that’s my point, divide grows way bigger.

Vayne.8563:

Hjorje.9453:

Vayne to counter your argument, I have been waiting through 3 years of PvE content for raids to come to this game. [SNIP]

In GW1, we had hard group content, UW, FoW, Urgots, the Deep. Here we didn’t really have that group content until raids came into the game. [SNIP]

Not sure how this counters my argument. Even if you’ve been waiting for 3 years for this, a whole bunch of players who don’t like raids are getting very little by way of updates and they’re angry about it.

If Anet had released an easier mode raid at the same time, which less rewards, at least we’d have had content. Instead they chose something that not everyone is interested in, and guess what, it’s not just Anet’s problem it’s everyone’s problem. If people walk away from this game because they’re nothing to do, some of them will return but not all of them.

What Anet did was build a vegetarian restaurant and then, after 3.5 years and building a large clientele, they started offering meat. Some people are going to walk away from that restaurant, because they perceive the focus is changing.

That’s one thing about MMOs. People take ownership of them. They buy into the idea that this game is MY game. It was made with me in mind. For a long time I was able to say that. I can’t really say it as much any more.

As much as I enjoy the game, and as much fun as I still have, there are elements in the game that make me feel like it’s no longer my game. And that’s a problem, not just for me, but for everyone who plays. You can’t really make a group of players who felt like the game was for them feel like second class citizens and not expect backlash. That backlash isn’t just felt by Anet. It’s felt by everyone who plays the game.

I agree with you most of the time Vayne, but I think Horje made two very valid points that you confirmed more than you countered.

The fact that Horje and his friends have waited 3 years for content they wanted and thought would be included from the begining says that a whole lot of people have been waiting for content they wanted a whole lot longer than the current PvE drought. Group content was available in GW1 so when it wasn’t in GW2. Many people, myself included, were disappointed.

I’m a PvE player too. I am missing new content as well. I, however, also realize that there are a lot of people out there who enjoy parts of the game I do not. So when they work on PvP, WvW, and now Raids, I am patient and wait my turn. They have been waiting a long time for meaty content.

Your vegetarian restaurant analogy is a little off IMO. It is more like a restaurant that promised both vegetarian and non-vegetarian meals and didn’t offer the meals with meat when the restaurant opened. It took them 3.5 years to offer the non-vegetarian meals. It doesn’t make the vegetarian meals any less important or delicious, it just means they are finally getting around to offering what should have been available from the start. The vegetarians just have to wait for a bit before they get a new dish or two. The old dishes are still just as good and available.

I agree with most of what the OP has to say. But I don’t consider myself casual, it’s just that my play style may not be typical. I max’ed Magic Find 2 years ago.

The concern I have with the introduction of Raiding is that it’s what MMOs have been doing for 10 years or more. I know that some of Anet’s attempts at innovation have not been really well received, but please keep at it.

To celebrate that raiding is played by 10% of the player base seems if not humorous at least odd. We all play our own game and if you attempt to lump players into 2 groups I think many game design possibilities will be lost.

Yay I kept this short.

Manthas.6234:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

I’m not asking for proof. We all perceive what we perceive. Personally I have seen responses and complaints about Raids in GW2 the moment they announced it would be a feature of HoT, and not a few either. Because the term Raid is kind of a loaded term, and what it usually implies is not something a lot of people in GW2 like, because the game is/was (debatable, but not here) oriented to casuals. But it depends on where you look what you see.

But yes, the division has been there longer. It was the same in the old dungeon days. Speed clears and “elitist” runs against pugging, playing how you like and just having fun. With neither side realizing that fun is subjective and one shouldn’t force one’s own perception of what’s fun on someone else, who has his/her own perception of it. Perhaps Raids have made that clash more visible than the dungeon meta did, because Raids actually do have prerequisites which you have to meet our you will fail. Dungeons don’t have that. Whatever you take inside will eventually clear that dungeon, but that’s not the case with Raids. The fact that there’s story involved and the casual players don’t get to see that incites them even more, understandably. ANet’s reassurance that they will not be left out and LS3 will fill in any gaps for people who have never set foot in the Forsaken Thicket doesn’t seem to help. The fact that it has rewards only obtainable by successfully clearing the Raid also doesn’t help. There are plenty of rewards in GW2 tied to specific content, but as long as it’s within reach of the majority it’s all fine.

And this is a logical response from a community of a casual oriented game. But MMO’s attract more than just those kinds of people and for it to be successful it has to cater to all people. And with that you’ll have to accept that not everything they do will be of your liking. But that’s only because not everything is meant for everyone. I don’t see that being any different in any other MMO. And then comes out the argument that ANet wants to be innovative and do things their own way, not the traditional way, and so shouldn’t do things like Raids and gate specific rewards behind it.

So yes, in general terms I do feel this debate has been going on for years now. The content focused on is different, but the same arguments are being used by the same general groups of people. And it’s the Internet, so they can throw in any attitude they want because, “Whatever”. Raids will not destroy the GW2 community. And it didn’t create a divide, it only inflammated an already existing one. That is what I have perceived.

Well, as you said it yourself, raids haven’t really helped in bringing the community together. And that’s my point, divide grows way bigger.

You have to realize exactly what this “divide” is gaped between. It is between the “casual” player, and the “hardcore” player (yes, those are very loose terms, but I don’t have better labels on hand).

True, raids are not helping to bridge the divide, but that is only a half-truth. Because at the same time they are not not helping — just like any other content in the game, really.

The divide between these two groups of people has been, and always will be there. Yes, there are people that fall between, but I am speaking in a broader sense.

For a long period of this game’s life, the “hardcore” group felt disconnected from the game because it solely catered to the “casual” audience. But, generally, they never asked A-net to make the casual content more hardcore. Instead, they asked A-net to add more hardcore content so they could enjoy the game too.

See the difference? Because right now, the mainstay of anti-raid positions are asking for the removal or nerfing of raids.

All in all, how would you go about bringing these two completely different groups of people together? What content can you conceive of that caters to both, and makes both want to play with the other?

Razor.9872:

All in all, how would you go about bringing these two
completely different groups of people together? What content can you conceive of that caters to both, and makes both want to play with the other?

This is a very fair and very good question – and is one of the reasons I think a tiered difficulty system – like that found in other raiding MMOs (or based loosely on them) would be good for the game.

They would provide a stepping stone to get more casual (or semi casual) players into the raiding experience – and offer the perfect place for the mentor class of players to teach mechanics, teamwork skills, etc, while still providing a minimal reward (to encourage repetition and participation).

I’ll chime in about the raid side. Why has Anet braced old technology of raids (stacked mechanics with static phases and employing a simple time-gate to make it hard)?

Instead the simple solution was remove the time-gate and have the rewards reflect on the group’s performance. Down the bosses fast get good rewards (less RNG), down the bosses slow get lesser rewards. That way all can experience the play and make progress while satisfying both ends of the spectrum.

But what Anet should do employ a totally new strategy in which all bosses (raid, world, etc.) instead change their tactics based upon the player class composition opposing them. This would make bosses stay “fresh” as differing class groups of players takes them on. Also, make learning the boss more interesting instead of rote.

Better yet, get rid of the static phases and have the boss change and adapt during the fight based upon how fast their HP is dropping. That would really make things interesting. It would be cool if the boss sees so much loss of his HP so fast, he just plain runs away. All of these methodologies are doable with some good AI. After 20 yrs of MMOs why are we still getting such old-school algorithms.