Guild Wars 2

This is going to be one of “those” topics, where a guy goes on a podium telling everyone what his opinion is, and they either burn him at the stake for saying it, or they listen, and consider what he might be saying may not necessarily be an individuals opinion but shared by a larger part of the community as a whole.

The Journey

So let me start by saying that for several dedicated years I considered GW2 my first MMO home since WoW, for a long time I invested myself into this game for various bits of content within it that I myself appealed to and avoided most of the content or simply ignored it, when I didnt have an interest.

When GW2 first came out, the premise I was told, as I suspect most of us, were told, was that this game was going to lean away from the steriotypical qualities of previous mmo’s in the genre. It wanted to do away with tab targeting, it wanted to break away from the role responsibility of heal, tank, dps.

It wanted to eliminate the notion of competative and toxic gameplay, by making the game open, friendly, and welcoming to everyone. I remember, when you could go into an area, without grouping with a single person, and still, if both of you wanted to take down the boss to get skill points, you could work together with a random guy to get the same reward.

This was the ideal MMO for me, it had no singular seperation of content between players, it was entirley, for everyone.

The Sign Of Things To Come

Then Fractals came, and suddenly, that concept was all but deminished. The introduction of ascended gear began a trend that would set off an endless chasm of divide between players that grew in quantity and quality of toxicity.

Fractals were only a small niche mind you, but they were the start of something, I knew that something was comming and I didnt want to believe it was going to happen. Not after this MMO I had just found, serving as a sanctuary, would promise to remove the idea of exclusive content from an MMO.

Yet here you had Fractals, the first sign of a storm to come, where content was designed specifically for one playerbase who were looking for challenging end game content. You needed a new type of armor and weapons, which required dedicated effort to attain and craft.

Now at the time this wasnt a major leap, so while it was worrying me, I didnt complain that challenging content could be added, people wanted it, it was fair to put something there.

But then bit by bit ugly signs of more of this content would start to appear, particualrly in season 1 during its exclusive limited time dungeon content that has now been added mostly to fractals.

Season 1 and 2

Now I did get to experience and play through all of the content in S1 except maybe Aether Path which ive still not touched with a 50 foot bargepole. The point is…

S1 while having a few misses for a casual like me, mostly was a hit, it added alot of world content, alot of content “everyone” could play granted the only limitation was the 2 week lockout period.

When S1 ended we had something of a timely drought to content, meanwhile we got new pvp content in the form of EOTM and early signs of ranked pvp being overhauled.

S2, finally came out with a much better format, 2 weeks like S1, but now, the content was permanent, with only a minor change from episode 1 to 2 otherwise everything remained generally samey.

The main world content got major updates and lots of pve side content was generally fun to do.

Then we got told HoT was comming, this first great expansion, at the time, I was genuinley intreagued, even hyped for HoT, but little could I have known that HoT was going to be the thing that changed everything for GW2 for me.

Heart Of Thorns

The release of Heart Of Thorns promised “challenging group content” which immediately set off my alarm bells considering up until this point Gw2 had been a game advocating for a casual playerbase that had no real understanding of that notion. E-sports was also being pushed hard this time round which also set me off because of the fact that I immediatley knew this E-sport thing wasnt going to take off successfully the way Arenanet hopes it will.

The issue is this…

E-Sports and Raiding, the Problem:

Up until that point, there was never a single piece of competetive content to the game that couldnt be done singlehandedly, or with a single friend. A small group of friends often speaks louder than a larger group of elitists.

The problem is that the lack of content for those specific 1% players from the golden days of wow such as TBC obviously screamed they wanted nostalgic content only they could access at the cost of everyone else.

This is not a healthy medium, its never been a healthy way to develop any content in any mmo. Making exclusive content that only a small minority will ever get to see literally creates the most defeating point of any game with multiplayer, exclusivity.

It literally means that only a small group of people with the skill, dedidcation, time, and care will ever actually see this content, ever care about this content and ever play, this content.

And frankly that is “not” good for a game that advocated itself as “the” casual mmo for players.

It defeats the entire point of having content, if that content is painted as “exclusive” in the first place, why even bother, when your probably never going to be on the level of those with e-sports pro gaming skills in pvp, or have the time/commitment to raid.

Why the Future is Hopeful

I believe A-net, you realize by now that both E-sports and Raiding has been recieved in a MOSTLY negative light, and sometimes, no matter how tempting a good idea seems, its often bad.

The problem here, is you came up with an idea that just doesnt fit the GW2 quota, that just doesnt belong here.

Raiding… is not content, that ever belonged in GW2, or had a place in it, nor is E-sports, both things belong in different games, focused entirley on content around that.

GW2’s strength, was its world events, its world raiding open to ‘everyone’ its “Personal” story that everyone is capable of doing.

Stick to what GW2 is good at, dont try to change it into something it isnt.

I am not asking you to remove raiding, per say, or to stop trying to make E-sports some kind of move, but I do think, frankly, that without a medium in which everyone has access to this content, your removing the reason GW2 was fun in the first place.

Theres a reason we call raiders the 1%, because thats all they will ever be. Only a minority of dedicated players actually raid, only a minority of dedicated pvpers actually want to be part of an e-sport.

Neither things, matter to the rest of us.

And I really hope, going forwards with season 3 and expansion 2, you focus on the majority, instead.

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

I want to know this.
I want to know what this casual player sees himself doing in an MMO.

Do you want to… i don’t know never have to play with others? Because that was something the game promised early on as well: Everyone is your party.

Do you want to never have to do more than to use your auto attack?

Before the whole HoT-discussion in these Forums i saw casual as easy to learn and understand.
As a game that you can get into without much work but that will reward you for getting that one step deeper.

But apparantly that’s not it.
Casual, from what i see in these posts, and even in the german forums, seems to be:
I don’t want to have to play with others, i don’t want any challenge what so ever, content should not get harder than Tetris on it’s lowest setting.

And i don’t believe that’s what casual means because before HoT a lot of people were asking for harder content, for that tiny bit of a challenge more.

And how exactly does HoT challenge you? It’s one or two counter skills here or there, maybe a bit of CC.
Actually… HoT asks for teamplay, and that it gets bashed for that means for me: Casual means egotistical.
Because the playerbase can’t be asked to see beyond the fence of their frontyard.

And you know what? I go solo into the HoT areas every now and then. I don’t see them as that challenging.
If i see a bigger event i ask people to join, they participate, everyone has (hopefully) fun.
That’s the essence of what GW2 promised at the start.

In all honesty:

I often see the word elitist and “pro” (in a very negative way) thrown around in these discussions when people who enjoy HoT try to defend it.
But the so called “casuals” are way more elitist than the other ones could every be because nothing better dare change the way too easy content in the core game.

And exactly that easy content is to blame when people complain that HoT is too hard.

Wait?
Raiding is “mostly” conceived in a negative light?

I get that people are annoyed, because it is the “only” content right now.

I get that some people don’t like it, because it is hard.

However i rarely hear lot’s of negatism towards raid, aside from the usual content drought and unjustified fear, of not getting shinies and story, even though it has been clearly stated that the future will show different ways to aquire these things.

Holy, dude… take a chill pill. You could have invested your time instead of writing this to a raid boss and mastering your class. It’s not that hard and if you don’t like it, don’t do it. There’s enough content for everyone. You talk about hard content like it is the worst thing and overdramatize like it is the end of the world.

I tell you my story. I play Guild Wars since 2006, right before the Faction expansion. Open world was always been ‘nice to have’ and I always complained there’s no hard raid content. Since HOT, I appreciate the harder content, I appreciate the HOT maps, the raids and the higher fractals.

There are as many opinions as people are out there (and here: playing this game). And the idea behind an MMO is to attract as many people as possible by offering as much as possible content. There is content for casuals like you: open world faceroll crap, and content for me: raids and fractals.

People ultimately shall not see everything from their narrow perspective. You can’t satisfy every need. This is life, adapt or go under.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

I want to know this.
I want to know what this casual player sees himself doing in an MMO.

Do you want to… i don’t know never have to play with others? Because that was something the game promised early on as well: Everyone is your party.

Do you want to never have to do more than to use your auto attack?

Before the whole HoT-discussion in these Forums i saw casual as easy to learn and understand.
As a game that you can get into without much work but that will reward you for getting that one step deeper.

But apparantly that’s not it.
Casual, from what i see in these posts, and even in the german forums, seems to be:
I don’t want to have to play with others, i don’t want any challenge what so ever, content should not get harder than Tetris on it’s lowest setting.

And i don’t believe that’s what casual means because before HoT a lot of people were asking for harder content, for that tiny bit of a challenge more.

And how exactly does HoT challenge you? It’s one or two counter skills here or there, maybe a bit of CC.
Actually… HoT asks for teamplay, and that it gets bashed for that means for me: Casual means egotistical.
Because the playerbase can’t be asked to see beyond the fence of their frontyard.

And you know what? I go solo into the HoT areas every now and then. I don’t see them as that challenging.
If i see a bigger event i ask people to join, they participate, everyone has (hopefully) fun.
That’s the essence of what GW2 promised at the start.

In all honesty:

I often see the word elitist and “pro” (in a very negative way) thrown around in these discussions when people who enjoy HoT try to defend it.
But the so called “casuals” are way more elitist than the other ones could every be because nothing better dare change the way too easy content in the core game.

And exactly that easy content is to blame when people complain that HoT is too hard.

maybe what he refer to is the need to get a group to be able to do the new content like meta event and raiding. sometime it is harder to get people depending on the time zone. some people at the time they play there is not enough people to do big group things. in game some people told me that they add a hard time doing some stuff in hot in the time zone they play there is not enough people to do those things. sometime it takes them 3 week or a month to finally get enough people to do it. that is the problem with meta event or game content that require lots of people. and yes what he said is true that the game said that you could do stuff on your own and participate with out the need to join a party in questing or pve content.

also some for the raids will not take every one they want specific build gears etc… so there is two side to the story. that could also be view as egoistical. what is the more egoistical not wanting to be force to join a group that force you to play the game like they want you to? or not taking people in your party because of your own preference or specific(gear, weapon, build, traits etc..) ? that was also happening in dungeon and in fractal before so it is not something new. people make division out of their own choice. and they think it will help them achieve their goal or that their way is the only way or the best way. if you never got kick in dungeon or in fractal. because some people are impatient they all died and you are the last one trying to finish the end boss and they kick you out with out saying a word. and you ask them what happen and they say to you, you waste our time we do not have all day to wait for you to kill the boss. when they have all die. example: fractal thermanova reactor end boss.

that is probably the kind of problem that makes him not like to have content to force him to be in group to achieve the content.

playing in group can be very fun but some other time not fun at all when some people enforce their rule on other by acting bad and doing stuff to other that they would not like being done to them self.

Theres a reason we call raiders the 1%, because thats all they will ever be. Only a minority of dedicated players actually raid, only a minority of dedicated pvpers actually want to be part of an e-sport.

Not to be the “um actually” guy, but actually, it’s more like 10% for GW2. Which is freakin’ stellar by MMO standards (most fall between 2%-7%). If anything makes it feel like the 1% problem, it’s the actual 1% who kewkew about whatever it is they kew about to make the whole raiding (or dungeons, or open world, or…) affair a spitbucket of toxic sludge. GW2 can’t be blamed for that.

Granted, GW2 isn’t the same game with HoT attached. There is a ton of aggravation included, and we’re not seeing the same care and attention to detail with a number of things. But it’s still one of the best games on the market for delivering an MMO experience.

The problem here is not that GW2 doesn’t have the content the so-called casuals (whatever the definition of that might be to some) are asking for. All that content is still in the game, and more has been added through the years. The problem is that the so-called casuals want access to all aspects of the game, even when that content is not designed for their demographic. The problem is people want the rewards but don’t want to do the content it requires. Some goals are long term, some require more effort, and that can mean that “casuals” have limited access to it. So be it. I don’t see that as a problem. Access is there for every single one of us. After that, all it comes down to is choice. And every choice has a consequence.

ANet has to cater to their entire player base. That’s sPvP players, WvW players and PvE players, both casual and hardcore and everything in between. The consequence is that some content is less accessible to some people. I have to do WvW to get any legendary weapon, but I strongly dislike WvW. So I don’t make legendary weapons. I’m fine with that. Raids are no different. It’s all a matter of how much do you want what said content gives you, and what are you willing to give/sacrifice for that. If you choose not to do specific content, don’t complain that the game doesn’t cater to your needs. Everyting casuals want is still in the game, and more will be added in the future. It’s not like Raids or Fractals are taking away your precious content. It’s there to cater to other kinds of players. Sure, they upped the difficulty with HoT, but that’s not saying much as core GW2 is beyond easy. Some people don’t like playing against AI, so they do sPvP and/or WvW, ignoring the core of the game. That’s fine too. The game caters to all of those people. It always has and it still does, and I believe it will continue to do so. Just because you play a certain game doesn’t mean that every single drop of content has to cater to your wishes.

Toxicity and elitism also are not problems created by ANet. They are problems created by people with certain personalities. Don’t hold ANet accountable for the actions of other people. They are also not enabling said conduct. Plenty of Raiders do not share those personality traits (speaking from personal experience and looking at my Raid group). And more people Raid in GW2 compared to any other MMO, which says something about the relative accessibility of GW2 Raids. As with anything, it’s about finding the right people with the right mindset. Elitists also aren’t my thing, so I avoid them too. Yet I still Raid and do Fractals and enjoy the harder content. Without that, GW2 would lose players just as well. Not introducing content with increased difficulty is actually more harmful. Casual content is there, always has been, always will be. So for casual players their content is there for them to enjoy whenever they want. Keeping challenging content out of the game is sure to result in the loss of community members because they don’t have any content they can play at any time they want. Now they also can. You won’t see them doing dynamic events in Queensdale or just exploring for the fun of it. And you won’t see casual players in Raids or spending the time on getting the appropriate gear for Fractals. We all have our preferences. The fact that ANet put it all in game is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Is this a drive-by rant?

Even though ANet strives to do things different with GW2, they’d be fools to ignore metrics that’d increase their player base and revenue. And, they’re metrics you don’t necessarily have access to – unless a player is in the upper management of ANet, that player doesn’t have the big picture to make accurate claims like you’ve tried to do (and so many posters on these forums do).

I feel like I’m being a broken record now when I say this, so I’m sorry, but there’s so many players with so many interests that there’s going to be LOTS of stuff in the game that you’re not going to enjoy. That doesn’t mean GW2 has lost their way… quite the opposite… it’s becoming more inclusive for its players. It’s a place where the PvE casual and the PvP elitist (or the PvE elitist and the PvP casual – I don’t want to pigeon hole the players) can get together and talk about the same game. More players is a good thing… but, yes, that means that there are more people being kittens, too. It can be easier to see the negative than the positive, but the positive is still there.

I also get that rant posts can be cathartic for the OP. But unless the OP is also desiring feedback, rant posts are a waste of everyone else’s time.

Also, rant posts cause puppies to go bald. >the more you know<

~EW

stephanie wise.7841:

maybe what he refer to is the need to get a group to be able to do the new content like meta event and raiding. sometime it is harder to get people depending on the time zone. some people at the time they play there is not enough people to do big group things. in game some people told me that they add a hard time doing some stuff in hot in the time zone they play there is not enough people to do those things. sometime it takes them 3 week or a month to finally get enough people to do it. that is the problem with meta event or game content that require lots of people. and yes what he said is true that the game said that you could do stuff on your own and participate with out the need to join a party in questing or pve content.

also some for the raids will not take every one they want specific build gears etc… so there is two side to the story. that could also be view as egoistical. what is the more egoistical not wanting to be force to join a group that force you to play the game like they want you to? or not taking people in your party because of your own preference or specific(gear, weapon, build, traits etc..) ? that was also happening in dungeon and in fractal before so it is not something new. people make division out of their own choice. and they think it will help them achieve their goal or that their way is the only way or the best way. if you never got kick in dungeon or in fractal. because some people are impatient they all died and you are the last one trying to finish the end boss and they kick you out with out saying a word. and you ask them what happen and they say to you, you waste our time we do not have all day to wait for you to kill the boss. when they have all die. example: fractal thermanova reactor end boss.

that is probably the kind of problem that makes him not like to have content to force him to be in group to achieve the content.

playing in group can be very fun but some other time not fun at all when some people enforce their rule on other by acting bad and doing stuff to other that they would not like being done to them self.

You are not forced to participate in raid content, nor are you forced to participate in groups that would exclude you. It’s unreasonable to expect a group of experienced players to carry you along.

You claim to be the majority. So find other players of like mind – players who want to raid, but feel there is a barrier to getting started – and start your own raid from scratch. You can learn as you go. Nobody will judge you. You simply have to have the patience to take it at whatever pace your group is capable of.

My guild has only completed 1 boss so far. We raid once per week if enough people show up. Our raiders volunteer to cover required roles. Nobody is ever forced to play a role they don’t wish to play. If we can’t get the right comp, we just don’t raid that week. No big deal.

If that doesn’t sound enjoyable, then go do something else. That’s certainly not a new concept in GW2.

I agree with everything the OP says.

I also think that Anet isn’t blind – and, like the OP states, the future is looking hopeful.

This game has changed in the last six months – and not in a positive way. Some people love raiding – and that is good. But they have let that passion overshadow some problems – from a big picture perspective – that raiding brought to the game.

Are those problems insurmountable? Of course not. Are they new or unique to GW2? Of course not. Anet will adapt. I personally believe that will come in the form of variable difficulty raids/rewards, but they may come up with some more creative solution.

What a lot of people need to realize is that, just because you don’t see this issue in game, doesn’t mean it isn’t there for many others. There are going to have to be some compromises – plain and simple. Accept that and help – through civil discourse and trying to be a part of the conversation rather than continually trying to shut the conversation down (the “this is the way it is. live with it” approach).

I love how the OP throws around the word casual. Did you know buddy, everyone has a different opinion on what casual means. I am a casual gamer, I play when I want, what I want in game without having to dedicate myself to progression. I am also an officer in a casual guild, and trust me we are casual.

I usually play GW2 2-4 times a week. I run the guild activities for my guild and I log in on Monday’s to lead my guilds raid groups. (Just a side note, we still haven’t beaten the VG as a whole group yet),

But to you point, for me raids was the best thing that could be added to the game, and that is the same for a lot of people in my guild. We are frustrated as heck trying to be the thing, but love the idea of challenging group content. It is a blast to work everything out and try to get that level of coordination for our group once a week. That is fun.

And you talking about fractals, fractals are cheese, I don’t even see how you classify them the way you did.

But to my point OP, don’t go throwing around the word casual as if you speak for a group in this game, cause there are a lot of different opinions on what casual means.

But to the point about the post. Everyone has opinion on the content, my opinion on the raids is they are awesome, I like the idea at some point my guild is going to get through them and it will feel good cause it is hard and not something everyone can do. There will be a feeling of accomplishment behind this. I am not playing them for rewards, I am playing them because they are hard.

It is just like legendary weapons, They have a big journey to them, but they are setup where anyone can accomplish it. I used to love running around and seeing someone with one early in the game. But being able to buy one kinda took away some of that, and then with the changes made it is easier for people to craft them now, it took away a little bit of the “cool” from them.

I just don’t see why their can’t be content in a game where some people are never going to be able to accomplish it. Cause the ones that have to fight, struggle, tooth and nail to get through it, they will have a sense of accomplishment knowing what they did.

it appears to be

I don’t think the OP is trying to speak for anyone other than himself. I don’t think its fair to assume he is doing otherwise. He even states in the first paragraph (and title of the post) that this is his own personal opinion.

As I stated above, however, I do agree with pretty much everything he said -

especially the part about only good things ahead for GW2. I trust the team at Anet to make an open, inviting and fun game for everyone.

Blaeys.3102:

I don’t think the OP is trying to speak for anyone other than himself. I don’t think its fair to assume he is doing otherwise. He even states in the first paragraph that this is his opinion.

As I stated above, however, I do agree with pretty much everything he said -

especially the part about only good things ahead for GW2. I trust the team at Anet to make an open, inviting and fun game for everyone.

But how isn’t the game already open and fun for everyone. I don’t see the behaviors a lot of people talk about on the forums. Since my guild isn’t beating the raid bosses yet, I pug a lot of them to learn so I can take that information back to the guild and try new things. I have never had a single bad pug going in there. Now we may not beat the bosses, but never see the toxic behavior.

When I am looking at the LFG, I see teaching raids going on all the time so more people can be included in doing the content. So the community is trying to get more involved.

Look, I’m not going to “burn you at the stake” for having an opinion. We all have one. What I do not like, is that it seems like you are trying to speak for the whole casual community.

I am positive there are others that feel as you do. I don’t.

I am very much a casual player and even though you have every right to your opinion, please just leave it at that. I don’t ever understand someone making a claim that they speak for a larger audience. Let your opinion stand on it’s own. As a casual player, if I want to voice my thoughts, I will. I certainly don’t need or want you to do it for me.

I enjoy fractals. They are dungeon like content that I find very enjoyable. My guild also likes them. We find them to be very easy to do even at higher levels. We don’t see them as elitist or anything of the sort. They are just added content.

Surely you realize that no matter what ANet does, it isn’t going to please everyone. They have to try to make a wide variety of content so that everyone will like part of it. You cannot please everyone all of the time. For me, if I don’t like something, I don’t do it. There are plenty of people who will enjoy doing those things. Not just elitists and hard core gamers. I don’t know why, but it feels a bit like you want to rain on ANets parade rather than simply voice an opinion.

Blaeys.3102:

I agree with everything the OP says.

I also think that Anet isn’t blind – and, like the OP states, the future is looking hopeful.

This game has changed in the last six months – and not in a positive way. Some people love raiding – and that is good. But they have let that passion overshadow some problems – from a big picture perspective – that raiding brought to the game.

Are those problems insurmountable? Of course not. Are they new or unique to GW2? Of course not. Anet will adapt. I personally believe that will come in the form of variable difficulty raids/rewards, but they may come up with some more creative solution.

What a lot of people need to realize is that, just because you don’t see this issue in game, doesn’t mean it isn’t there for many others. There are going to have to be some compromises – plain and simple. Accept that and help – through civil discourse and trying to be a part of the conversation rather than continually trying to shut the conversation down (the “this is the way it is. live with it” approach).

It is not elitist to require a person being invited to a group with 9 other players to understand the encounters and make some adjustment to their build to fulfill a specific role.

I don’t condone being nasty to other players due to poor performance in a game. But I think it’s ridiculous that a person who refuses to take the time to start from scratch and practice the encounters and/or refuses to gear/trait appropriately for the content can demand to be carried along by other players who have done these things.

It’s an unreasonable demand and when you don’t get what you want, you label others “elitist” for being annoyed with you. Again, I’m not saying they’re justified. If it were me, I’d politely explain to you that this group has practiced the encounter for some time, that we have a spot open and we’re happy to bring along an inexperienced player, but we need you to fulfill certain requirements on various bosses. You’re unlikely to find that opportunity, however, and imposing upon others is likely to elicit a negative response from players less charitable than myself.

Again, just form your own beginner’s raid group. Set agreed upon rules to dictate the style of play. In other words, if some players who express interest consider themselves to be of a higher skill level than the group and are unlikely to tolerate extended periods of failure in the learning phase of each boss, they might be better off in another group. That isn’t you being “elitist”. It’s ensuring a good fit for the benefit of all involved.

Like I said before, the way my guild does it we leave group comp up to volunteers. Maybe we need condi. Anyone got a condi build they want to bring along? Need a chronomancer? Okay, who has a mesmer? Nobody is forced to play anything they don’t want to play. We just don’t raid that week or go after a different boss that we can meet the requirements for. Better luck next week. No big deal.

That’s my group. You can make your group whatever you want it to be. Just start getting some players of like mind together and get started.

I don’t mind that there is some content that I am not skilled enough to do. I will never be an elite PvPer and I am struggling to do raids. Fractals has been a slog but I am getting to be decent at them. All this is fine as long as the rewards are the pretty shinies that the victorious get to wave around. What I think is a shame is the lore that is locked within the raids that the majority of my guild mates will never see. Some of them are lore hounds that have been around since GW1 beta but just aren’t fast enough on the keys to get through a raid.

Apart from raids and PvP, the content drought has been real and parching. The reneging on the new legendaries and delay of LS have pushed some guild mates out of the game and has me spending less time in GW2 and more time in other games. I think Anet has the ability to turn things around, and am curious to see how they do so.

I do have one complaint about the raids though. The locked lore behind the raid wall. That is the one thing about the raids that I think shouldn’t have been done. I think the lore of the game should be open to everyone that plays it. Having that locked behind the hard content isn’t good for the community has a whole.

LouWolfskin.3492:

[snip]
Do you want to… i don’t know never have to play with others? Because that was something the game promised early on as well: Everyone is your party.

Do you want to never have to do more than to use your auto attack?

Before the whole HoT-discussion in these Forums i saw casual as easy to learn and understand.
As a game that you can get into without much work but that will reward you for getting that one step deeper.

But apparantly that’s not it.
Casual, from what i see in these posts, and even in the german forums, seems to be:
I don’t want to have to play with others, i don’t want any challenge what so ever, content should not get harder than Tetris on it’s lowest setting.

And i don’t believe that’s what casual means because before HoT a lot of people were asking for harder content, for that tiny bit of a challenge more.

And how exactly does HoT challenge you? It’s one or two counter skills here or there, maybe a bit of CC.
Actually… HoT asks for teamplay, and that it gets bashed for that means for me: Casual means egotistical.
Because the playerbase can’t be asked to see beyond the fence of their frontyard.

And you know what? I go solo into the HoT areas every now and then. I don’t see them as that challenging.
If i see a bigger event i ask people to join, they participate, everyone has (hopefully) fun.
That’s the essence of what GW2 promised at the start.

[snip]

The OP was not insinuating that “casual” players of GW2 are “I want to be a loner and have everything be one-hit easy-mode”, like you just did. And I find that insulting. Sure, I play solo unless I run a dungeon, but do I, someone who does consider myself a “casual” player, want the game to “not get harder than Tetris at lowest setting”? Where the hell did you even get that claim? Just admit that there are tons of different types of players out there, and many could be considered one or more types of “casual” (it’s not a term set in stone, just like “hard-core” or “elite” isn’t, either).

By extension, everyone will react differently to HoT. Some will have no issue regardless of class. Others will struggle. Is someone struggling with HoT hurting your personal game time? So then why bother if someone struggles with it? I do have to admit, some navigation in the HoT maps is really counter-intuitive, with the mini-map not helping matters. And there are enemies (Itzel frogs, mushrooms) that seem incredibly “cheap” at times. There are frustrating aspects of HoT. And that’s my personal opinion.

Blaeys.3102:

I don’t think the OP is trying to speak for anyone other than himself. I don’t think its fair to assume he is doing otherwise. He even states in the first paragraph (and title of the post) that this is his own personal opinion.

Um… I’m thinking no.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

This is going to be one of “those” topics, where a guy goes on a podium telling everyone what his opinion is, and they either burn him at the stake for saying it, or they listen, and consider what he might be saying may not necessarily be an individuals opinion but shared by a larger part of the community as a whole.

Moyayuki.3619:

The OP was not insinuating that “casual” players of GW2 are “I want to be a loner and have everything be one-hit easy-mode”, like you just did. And I find that insulting. Sure, I play solo unless I run a dungeon, but do I, someone who does consider myself a “casual” player, want the game to “not get harder than Tetris at lowest setting”? Where the hell did you even get that claim? Just admit that there are tons of different types of players out there, and many could be considered one or more types of “casual” (it’s not a term set in stone, just like “hard-core” or “elite” isn’t, either).

By extension, everyone will react differently to HoT. Some will have no issue regardless of class. Others will struggle. Is someone struggling with HoT hurting your personal game time? So then why bother if someone struggles with it? I do have to admit, some navigation in the HoT maps is really counter-intuitive, with the mini-map not helping matters. And there are enemies (Itzel frogs, mushrooms) that seem incredibly “cheap” at times. There are frustrating aspects of HoT. And that’s my personal opinion.

I’ll admit my fault as a human being because after a while all these: Arena Net is so mean to us casuals and HoT is bad for the game threads just bleed together for me.

And… to my defense: I asked if those were defining points of the casual.

I want to understand this as it gets thrown around so often and in such a density that i just don’t know what exactly casual is supposed to mean here.

But.. i am sorry for insulting you or others with my maybe rudely chosen words.
I can hope nothing more than that you will accept my apology.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Moyayuki.3619:

The OP was not insinuating that “casual” players of GW2 are “I want to be a loner and have everything be one-hit easy-mode”, like you just did. And I find that insulting. Sure, I play solo unless I run a dungeon, but do I, someone who does consider myself a “casual” player, want the game to “not get harder than Tetris at lowest setting”? Where the hell did you even get that claim? Just admit that there are tons of different types of players out there, and many could be considered one or more types of “casual” (it’s not a term set in stone, just like “hard-core” or “elite” isn’t, either).

By extension, everyone will react differently to HoT. Some will have no issue regardless of class. Others will struggle. Is someone struggling with HoT hurting your personal game time? So then why bother if someone struggles with it? I do have to admit, some navigation in the HoT maps is really counter-intuitive, with the mini-map not helping matters. And there are enemies (Itzel frogs, mushrooms) that seem incredibly “cheap” at times. There are frustrating aspects of HoT. And that’s my personal opinion.

I’ll admit my fault as a human being because after a while all these: Arena Net is so mean to us casuals and HoT is bad for the game threads just bleed together for me.

And… to my defense: I asked if those were defining points of the casual.

I want to understand this as it gets thrown around so often and in such a density that i just don’t know what exactly casual is supposed to mean here.

But.. i am sorry for insulting you or others with my maybe rudely chosen words.
I can hope nothing more than that you will accept my apology.

It’s all right. That’s the nature of the internet: We often read text differently than we’d hear it. And a big thing about forums is we often hear complaints from a few specific groups, which then make others think they are the majority, when they really are not. I honestly haven’t heard of anyone who called themselves “casual” asking for some of the things you mentioned in your previous post, so that’s why I was pretty confused about where it was coming from.

I would like to state some things to clarify my stance here:

1. I do not consider my opinion something ‘everyone’ has to adheer to or be dismissed by.

I am not inclined to think my ego is so far up my own figurehead that I believe myself the pinnacle of all casual gamers, I believe it is quite fair to say there are indeed many variables of what a casual gamer is defined by, but I would say that I do define “one” of its many variables and I know a number of friends of mine that could feel the same way, infact do. Despite this, that is the opinion they can form and express at their leisure, but some people are too kitteno give a voice, or too scared to speak their opinion for fear of being attacked for it.

2. I strongly believe that Raiding and PvP have not benefitted GW2

This game was not about a group of 10 people being locked into an instance that the remaining 100 behind it could not enter, that was never the intended design for this mmo even once. This mmo advocated itself infact as a game filled with challenging world bosses (world) being the enphasis, where masses of people would rally together to figure out a challenge all at once as a community, not just a guild.

That sense of people pride is dulled in HoT, as most of the content feels less about the team and more about the “specialists” who know the best specs, gear, and tactics to employ.

Basically, its the difference between the heroic charge of WW1 over the fence, and the elite commando teams employed today in military operations. Some of us just prefer that heroic army charging against the dragon.

As for PvP:

The E-sport scene is not a good move for A-net, this attempt to pretend to be the next league of legends, or try to intergate an MMO with heavy pve/world vs world focus into a pvp scene actually detracts the greater community from itself. It isolates everyone in favor of a pocket full of people who will be nameless individuals only a minority of spectators will ever take an interest in, again, same problem, its the small minority, vs the larger majority.

The majority always wins, more, is always better.

3. I do believe that A-net knows very well that while some enjoy raiding and the e-sport scene, there are many, who do not

Its become clear to me A-net understands by now that while raiding has obviously been a success for the playerbase that enjoys it, and e-sports is clearly fun for those actually participating, the majority who dont even get to see this content are missing out and feeling left out.

This attempt to focus on quality over quantity may be a reflection of that in future season 3 and expansion 2 updates, this is me being blindly optimistic, but I believe it is because of that, they recognise that people want content “everyone” can be part of in large scale.

Because frankly?

Id rather be with my 2-3 friends joining a huge army fighting against other players, or dragons, or mursaat/mantle armies.

Than be forced to join 9 other specialists, who I barley know, whom will judge me on my skills, ability to participate on an active basis, and attempt to burn me for making failures I may not always be able to help.

I do despite this, want to improove at the game, I would love, for raiding to have accessability to those that want to relax and enjoy the story. I dont even mind if that content comes at the cost of no unique raid gear, I dont care.

All I want… is to enjoy the game I paid to enjoy, and I know my friends want to do the same thing.

Now I am sure, ALOT of raiders, alot of E-sports players DO, enjoy the raiding, DO, enjoy the game, infact im sure casuals that raid enjoy raiding as much as they enjoy world content.

But that content, is… no matter how the cookie is cut, exclusive.

And this game was never meant to be built on that foundation, exclusivity, was supposed to be something that GW2, was “never” meant to have.

Maybe the devs minds have changed, maybe, I dont know.

But I miss the days everyone could enjoy things at their own leisure, without feeling like they had to be on a band wagon, perform excellingly, or be forced to join guilds to enjoy content.

Because im fairly sure when this game launched, I never had to join a guild, or make a group.

I just got to play with lots of people, and we all had fun who ever was there at the time.

While I always never took the concept of epsarts seriously, I honestly think this sort of mindset is going the other way in excluding people and that won’t work either.

Yes, it’s probably true that more hardcore content attracts toxic people but you can’t just ignore the people that like to try everything and delve into the content of the range of causal to hardcore, from open PvE to raids, and I know many players like that.

For you to spread hate on this so called 1% is just as toxic as elitists looking down on everyone else.

Also, I think you missed a big thing for here that would support your case though, and that is the Guild Hall costs as well as the forgetting of small guilds. I think that is key to a lot of the issues.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

I would like to state some things to clarify my stance here:

1. I do not consider my opinion something ‘everyone’ has to adheer to or be dismissed by.

“snip”

2. I strongly believe that Raiding and PvP have not benefitted GW2

“snip”

The majority always wins, more, is always better.

3. I do believe that A-net knows very well that while some enjoy raiding and the e-sport scene, there are many, who do not

Its become clear to me A-net understands by now that while raiding has obviously been a success for the playerbase that enjoys it, and e-sports is clearly fun for those actually participating, the majority who dont even get to see this content are missing out and feeling left out.

This attempt to focus on quality over quantity may be a reflection of that in future season 3 and expansion 2 updates, this is me being blindly optimistic, but I believe it is because of that, they recognise that people want content “everyone” can be part of in large scale.

Because frankly?

Id rather be with my 2-3 friends joining a huge army fighting against other players, or dragons, or mursaat/mantle armies.

Than be forced to join 9 other specialists, who I barley know, whom will judge me on my skills, ability to participate on an active basis, and attempt to burn me for making failures I may not always be able to help.

I do despite this, want to improove at the game, I would love, for raiding to have accessability to those that want to relax and enjoy the story. I dont even mind if that content comes at the cost of no unique raid gear, I dont care.

All I want… is to enjoy the game I paid to enjoy, and I know my friends want to do the same thing.

Now I am sure, ALOT of raiders, alot of E-sports players DO, enjoy the raiding, DO, enjoy the game, infact im sure casuals that raid enjoy raiding as much as they enjoy world content.

But that content, is… no matter how the cookie is cut, exclusive.

And this game was never meant to be built on that foundation, exclusivity, was supposed to be something that GW2, was “never” meant to have.

Maybe the devs minds have changed, maybe, I dont know.

But I miss the days everyone could enjoy things at their own leisure, without feeling like they had to be on a band wagon, perform excellingly, or be forced to join guilds to enjoy content.

Because im fairly sure when this game launched, I never had to join a guild, or make a group.

I just got to play with lots of people, and we all had fun who ever was there at the time.

So they should just design content that “everyone” can enjoy. What if we don’t like the open world stuff that “everyone” can enjoy. What if their is a group that wants super hard content. What if that is how they get enjoyment out of the game, is doing super hard content. Honestly, that is why I log into the game. Hang with my friends and do some super hard stuff. And we aren’t specialist at any of it. We are just a group of people that enjoy hanging out. Doing the hard content actually relaxes me after working all day.

As for the e-sport part, have you even looked into it. GW2 is actually pretty good e-sport game. It is starting to get a following. They never said they wanted to be the next LoL, but it does have a following and organizers of tournaments are starting to get some decent size prize pools. It is going good actually.

As for how the game was built, it honestly looks the same. ANET tries to get content into the game to cover all the player base. In the beginning we had dungeons for dungeon runners, we had awesome open world bosses, we had PvP, we had massive PvP (WvW). Now they added something for the raiders. So where does this not build on the foundation already laid for the game.

Like I said above, they shouldn’t have locked lore behind super hard content, that was a mistake. But that doesn’t mean adding raids was not already building on the foundation that ANET put up when the game came out.

@CaptainVanguard I understand what you are saying. However, there are is something you may or may not know.

PvP and GW are very old friends. It was a staple in the first game and was meant to be a staple in this one. I am not a PvP’er and never will be. Not my thing. However, there are many people who enjoy PvP who will never play PvE. I don’t believe it is an exclusive or elitist thing. It is what they enjoy and they put their time into that. It is open to all of us and really is a different game entirely. PvP is, however, as much Guild Wars as is PvE. So it has taken nothing away from casual players, IMO. It was always meant to be a part of GW2 and always will be. It does not detract from the game as it is a part of the game.

And of course ANet knows that many people do not like Raids and PvP. There are many who cannot stand PvE because they believe it is too easy. I have a guildmate who only wants to WvW and nothing else. There is nothing wrong with that. Maybe you are missing the point that ANet has to accomodate PvP’ers and Raiders as well as casual players.

As far as PvE goes; except for Raids, Fractals and Dungeons, all of which we knew would require multiple people from the outset, there really isn’t anything you can’t do alone. I just don’t see where you think things are exclusive. I agree raids are hard, but that is what many wanted. You have to provide things that ALL people of all levels desire, not just one portion of the player base or another.

I agree with you about the game not being built on exclusivity. IMO it never was and still isn’t. It was most certainly built on players playing together in a social way. They said that from the beginning. They wanted a game that promoted players playing together to achieve goals in a social way. So while you can play most content solo, the game was made to be played by groups of people. It was also built on being able to handle many types of content from casual to hard core. It really feels like you are saying that ANet should ignore those who want challenging content and ANet shouldn’t care about PvP.

I know how you feel and to an extent, I can sympathize. However, I think you are taking things too personally, not showing respect for players different than yourself, and blowing some things out of proportion.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

IMO, “casual” means a person who doesn’t want the game to be a job.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Holy, dude… take a chill pill. You could have invested your time instead of writing this to a raid boss and mastering your class. It’s not that hard and if you don’t like it, don’t do it. There’s enough content for everyone.

When Anet introduces new lore ONLY accessible in raids, that is definitely something to complain about.

Djinn.9245:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

IMO, “casual” means a person who doesn’t want the game to be a job.

And, my definition is slightly different:

A casual player wants a game they can pick up and play, then stop playing at any time for any reason…. which means the content needs to be accessible, and in portions that allow for breaks or stopping.

A hardcore player wants something they can devote themselves to… often (but not always) to the point of scheduling and devoting large swaths of their time around aspects of the game they wish to play such as raids or PvP tourneys.

A casual player can be a player who plays a lot, and a hardcore player can be someone who plays infrequently… and vice versa. But, the difference comes by their willingness to schedule/commit their time to the game, and not how much they actually wind up playing.

~EW

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Djinn.9245:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

IMO, “casual” means a person who doesn’t want the game to be a job.

And, my definition is slightly different:

A casual player wants a game they can pick up and play, then stop playing at any time for any reason…. which means the content needs to be accessible, and in portions that allow for breaks or stopping.

A hardcore player wants something they can devote themselves to… often (but not always) to the point of scheduling and devoting large swaths of their time around aspects of the game they wish to play such as raids or PvP tourneys.

A casual player can be a player who plays a lot, and a hardcore player can be someone who plays infrequently… and vice versa. But, the difference comes by their willingness to schedule/commit their time to the game, and not how much they actually wind up playing.

~EW

I view having to schedule, dedicate large swaths of time, etc. as being like a job. So I don’t think we differ much.

Hjorje.9453:

CaptainVanguard.4925:

I would like to state some things to clarify my stance here:

1. I do not consider my opinion something ‘everyone’ has to adheer to or be dismissed by.

“snip”

2. I strongly believe that Raiding and PvP have not benefitted GW2

“snip”

The majority always wins, more, is always better.

3. I do believe that A-net knows very well that while some enjoy raiding and the e-sport scene, there are many, who do not

Its become clear to me A-net understands by now that while raiding has obviously been a success for the playerbase that enjoys it, and e-sports is clearly fun for those actually participating, the majority who dont even get to see this content are missing out and feeling left out.

This attempt to focus on quality over quantity may be a reflection of that in future season 3 and expansion 2 updates, this is me being blindly optimistic, but I believe it is because of that, they recognise that people want content “everyone” can be part of in large scale.

Because frankly?

Id rather be with my 2-3 friends joining a huge army fighting against other players, or dragons, or mursaat/mantle armies.

Than be forced to join 9 other specialists, who I barley know, whom will judge me on my skills, ability to participate on an active basis, and attempt to burn me for making failures I may not always be able to help.

I do despite this, want to improove at the game, I would love, for raiding to have accessability to those that want to relax and enjoy the story. I dont even mind if that content comes at the cost of no unique raid gear, I dont care.

All I want… is to enjoy the game I paid to enjoy, and I know my friends want to do the same thing.

Now I am sure, ALOT of raiders, alot of E-sports players DO, enjoy the raiding, DO, enjoy the game, infact im sure casuals that raid enjoy raiding as much as they enjoy world content.

But that content, is… no matter how the cookie is cut, exclusive.

And this game was never meant to be built on that foundation, exclusivity, was supposed to be something that GW2, was “never” meant to have.

Maybe the devs minds have changed, maybe, I dont know.

But I miss the days everyone could enjoy things at their own leisure, without feeling like they had to be on a band wagon, perform excellingly, or be forced to join guilds to enjoy content.

Because im fairly sure when this game launched, I never had to join a guild, or make a group.

I just got to play with lots of people, and we all had fun who ever was there at the time.

So they should just design content that “everyone” can enjoy. What if we don’t like the open world stuff that “everyone” can enjoy. What if their is a group that wants super hard content. What if that is how they get enjoyment out of the game, is doing super hard content. Honestly, that is why I log into the game. Hang with my friends and do some super hard stuff. And we aren’t specialist at any of it. We are just a group of people that enjoy hanging out. Doing the hard content actually relaxes me after working all day.

As for the e-sport part, have you even looked into it. GW2 is actually pretty good e-sport game. It is starting to get a following. They never said they wanted to be the next LoL, but it does have a following and organizers of tournaments are starting to get some decent size prize pools. It is going good actually.

As for how the game was built, it honestly looks the same. ANET tries to get content into the game to cover all the player base. In the beginning we had dungeons for dungeon runners, we had awesome open world bosses, we had PvP, we had massive PvP (WvW). Now they added something for the raiders. So where does this not build on the foundation already laid for the game.

Like I said above, they shouldn’t have locked lore behind super hard content, that was a mistake. But that doesn’t mean adding raids was not already building on the foundation that ANET put up when the game came out.

Really, they didn’t even lock lore behind the content, because anyone can join the instance after someone else has beaten it. After all, most all the lore in these zones is spaced throughout the map, rather than in the fights themselves.

Now, say, if one could not join cleared instances without clearing them themselves, then it would be gated. But all it takes is an lfg post and a handful of minutes to get access to the story.

Djinn.9245:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Holy, dude… take a chill pill. You could have invested your time instead of writing this to a raid boss and mastering your class. It’s not that hard and if you don’t like it, don’t do it. There’s enough content for everyone.

When Anet introduces new lore ONLY accessible in raids, that is definitely something to complain about.

Correction: Anet indroduced new lore accessible in raid instances. That is not something worth complaining about, because anyone can gain access to a cleared raid instance — without even having to fight anything. That is about as close to casual as one can get; you can experience the entirety of the raid storyline as a point-n-click adventure. It’s even easier than the personal story.

Djinn.9245:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Djinn.9245:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

IMO, “casual” means a person who doesn’t want the game to be a job.

And, my definition is slightly different:

A casual player wants a game they can pick up and play, then stop playing at any time for any reason…. which means the content needs to be accessible, and in portions that allow for breaks or stopping.

A hardcore player wants something they can devote themselves to… often (but not always) to the point of scheduling and devoting large swaths of their time around aspects of the game they wish to play such as raids or PvP tourneys.

A casual player can be a player who plays a lot, and a hardcore player can be someone who plays infrequently… and vice versa. But, the difference comes by their willingness to schedule/commit their time to the game, and not how much they actually wind up playing.

~EW

I view having to schedule, dedicate large swaths of time, etc. as being like a job. So I don’t think we differ much.

If your definition of job is dedicating periods of time to particular subjects, then raids don’t have to be a job. You can freely enter the game, create a learning lfg, and play raids until you are done or want to do something else — just like the rest of the game’s content.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

I want to know this.
I want to know what this casual player sees himself doing in an MMO.

Do you want to… i don’t know never have to play with others? Because that was something the game promised early on as well: Everyone is your party.

Do you want to never have to do more than to use your auto attack?

Before the whole HoT-discussion in these Forums i saw casual as easy to learn and understand.
As a game that you can get into without much work but that will reward you for getting that one step deeper.

But apparantly that’s not it.
Casual, from what i see in these posts, and even in the german forums, seems to be:
I don’t want to have to play with others, i don’t want any challenge what so ever, content should not get harder than Tetris on it’s lowest setting.

And i don’t believe that’s what casual means because before HoT a lot of people were asking for harder content, for that tiny bit of a challenge more.

And how exactly does HoT challenge you? It’s one or two counter skills here or there, maybe a bit of CC.
Actually… HoT asks for teamplay, and that it gets bashed for that means for me: Casual means egotistical.
Because the playerbase can’t be asked to see beyond the fence of their frontyard.

And you know what? I go solo into the HoT areas every now and then. I don’t see them as that challenging.
If i see a bigger event i ask people to join, they participate, everyone has (hopefully) fun.
That’s the essence of what GW2 promised at the start.

In all honesty:

I often see the word elitist and “pro” (in a very negative way) thrown around in these discussions when people who enjoy HoT try to defend it.
But the so called “casuals” are way more elitist than the other ones could every be because nothing better dare change the way too easy content in the core game.

And exactly that easy content is to blame when people complain that HoT is too hard.

I’m going to take your original question at face level and try to answer it…

People use the word “casual” to mean different things. Many of them are things people don’t like, so they unfairly use the term “casual” onto it. Here are some definitions:

never wants to play with others — generally more “solo” than “casual”. Completely different axis, in my opinion. Alternatively, there are people who play for personal dps instead of supporting the rest of the party. That’s a thing too, and I don’t know what I’d call it, but I wouldn’t call it casual.

can only play at limited times — generally because gamers are older than they used to be, are adults, have jobs, etc. They might not like 2 hour meta events that start on a fixed schedule because it’s hard to find a time to do it. Related to the above in that someone on a limited schedule might have a hard time finding a common time to play with others they know. I would call them “casuals.”

doesn’t want to do more than auto-attack — generally a straw man that people use to insult casuals. Almost nobody actually wants this. Even someone who is less knowledgeable about the class will usually use each ability when it comes off cooldown rather than just auto-attacking (exception: zerging when everything dies too quickly to do more than tag before the mob dies) — not efficient play, no, but not just auto-attacking either.

less skillful — not everyone can be above average. No, it sometimes doesn’t just take a little effort. For example, I have wrist issues which prevent me from using mice. This gives me a disadvantage in turning and looking around. Practice can help somewhat, but no amount of practice is ever going to give me the positional awareness that players with mice take for granted.

lazy — again, an insult that generally misunderstands some of the above. Possibly from the belief that casuals could be hardcore if only they put a little effort into it.

doesn’t want to look up guides — ok, this is probably the closest you get to “lazy,” but some people really don’t want to have to spend time on sites in order to enjoy a game, and I’m okay with that, as long as they are willing to listen when they are dragging down a group.

doesn’t want challenge — it’s a difference in mindset. Some people see the game as entertainment and grinding as doing work for a game. They might not want to come home from a job just to do more work in the game. They might be less skillful and what is a fair challenge for you might be unattainable for them, even with practice.

wants everything handed to them — now this is the big one. When phrased this way, it is an insult, but it’s largely a difference in mindset. Someone without 100 hours to grind at something wants to be able to enjoy content and achieve something even when they don’t have that much time. They would also be more sensitive to grinding requirements. Or it could be someone who sees the game as entertainment and doesn’t want to do meaningless work for something in-game. Sometimes, it’s not about the challenge and bragging rights.

Where do I fit in? I have a job but try to log in and do the dailies, at least, but binge a bit on weekends. Thanks to logged statistics, I know I average between 2-3 hours a day for the past 1.5 years. My skill level is limited due to wrist issues and no mouse. I found open-world HoT a little challenging at first, but that was mostly before I knew the maps and before I had the travel masteries under my belt. I do wish there were more waypoints, though. I do have an issue with raids, as I had to put in 100+ hours of practice over ~6 months to defeat Vale Guardian once. I did it, but it felt too much like beating my head against a wall for me to want to continue — it isn’t fun for me.

Djinn.9245:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

IMO, “casual” means a person who doesn’t want the game to be a job.

The game isn’t a job, if anything players make it a job by themselves. Sorry, but it isn’t even a job with HoT, i am playing there casualy and yes: I get what i want from it.

Simply put, I agree with the OP and think he would rather see ANET do MORE for the majority when it seems they are doing MORE for the minority. Seems kinda logical to me.

Akkeros.1675:

Simply put, I agree with the OP and think he would rather see ANET do MORE for the majority when it seems they are doing MORE for the minority. Seems kinda logical to me.

I believe they are hard at work right now building more content for the ‘majority’. They have been for several months. However, what they are working on is not finished.

Razor.9872:

Djinn.9245:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Holy, dude… take a chill pill. You could have invested your time instead of writing this to a raid boss and mastering your class. It’s not that hard and if you don’t like it, don’t do it. There’s enough content for everyone.

When Anet introduces new lore ONLY accessible in raids, that is definitely something to complain about.

Correction: Anet indroduced new lore accessible in raid instances. That is not something worth complaining about, because anyone can gain access to a cleared raid instance — without even having to fight anything. That is about as close to casual as one can get; you can experience the entirety of the raid storyline as a point-n-click adventure. It’s even easier than the personal story.

I wasn’t aware that I could just access a cleared raid instance whenever I wanted. Please tell me how I can do this.

I left Final Fantasy 14 and switched over to GW2 because FF14 is anti-casual. People say it is very casual-friendly, but these people are just wrong. I don’t know where FF14 is supposed to be casual.

The definition of casual is very subjective as it appears. But to me, casual means different paths for players to take depending on their needs and/or skills instead of forcing ONE way not everyone can take. FF14 for example has a lot of locked content; you HAVE to play certain dungeons that require certain “things”. In order to get these things you have to craft, in order to craft you have to this and that, that requires RNG, which you can’t afford without money (Gil) and so on and so on. It feels it is more easy to fill out some 20-page government paperwork than playing or advancing a bit. For example, there is a quest chain where you have to wait for a “fate” (random event). This random event spawns every 45 – 1 hour. So you sit there and wait, just like the Sydney Youngblood song. This is not casual, because that is roughly 75% of my overall playtime.

In GW2, to me it feels very different. I can teleport into any place, ask in the all chat for events, people will announce TS channels when somethings going on, or waypoints, or whatever. It is inviting for me to even launch it for 30 minutes while in FF14, 30 minutes is the average waiting time for one dungeon.

GW2’s gameplay allows more “drive-by” fun, not so stiff, not as intanced and “forced”. I enjoy it. If you don’t like PvE, you can take other paths, how about PvP? All this stuff is what I like when I boot up GW2. Something other MMORPGs lacked. It was, like someone said, more like a job with shedules and content locked behind stupid bullkitten.

In short: Casual should give everyone the ability to jump into the game. Enjoy it. Give it all they need. Not locking skills behind dungeons that require several people to complete. I for my part I am 100% solo. I would not waste my time with a game that would put all the shiny stuff behind a content wall I can not beat without alternatives to reach it. Leaving the super-awesome things to the hardcore people that deserve is okay, having no access to something similar, maybe weaker, is not okay. I am fine with grade-2 equipment, but at least I get said equipment.

So they built a minority of the content for a minority of the player base. I fail to see the problem here.

Hell they actually mothballed legendaries JUST to focus on LS, as LS is still, to this day, seen as the most important content in the game. The vast majority of content in HoT is open world and solo instances. The two cores of GW2 PvE.

Your complaint is, literally, that they added a type of content you don’t like in stead of adding the type that you do.

Suck it up. The game had a serious lack of appeal for a certain demographic, and that demographic is important as a part of the whole community. When you break it down, if you quizzed every single player of any given MMO about what they want added to the game immediately, in the very next patch, you’d end up with so many sub-communities that literally anything you add only serves a minority.

The appropriate goal, and the one Anet is still using, is to equitably treat all of those minorities in sequence. They’re done with the first raid now. The last wing is released. They’re done with the pvp league system. They’re still hammering out WvW updates. All large parts of their design that have been hilariously unserved for literally years in GW2. The next major updates, now that they’ve made real attempts to equitably serve those portions of the community, are targeted at the start of the circle again. More LS and open world.

Complaining that every single update does not serve your personal interests is selfish and silly. The game does not revolve around you. It revolves around a massively diverse community. They released with the promise of four pillars of play. Accessible cooperative open world., soloable personal story, challenging group instances (yes, the original dungeons were billed, pre-release, as extremely challenging content for challenge seekers) and competitive small and large scale PvP modes.

What has changed is that they’re finally taking a holistic approach rather than hyper-focusing on one part of that design.

I don’t get what this rant is all about. An MMO will have dungeons, raids, PvP, and challenging contents. I am a casual player myself and I like GW2 based on the fact that when I log in, at any time of the day, I can play with others without forming a group — that never changed.

I frequent Silverwastes and Tarir (some WvW) and there are players there whenever I log in. Do I care for the rest of the GW2 like raiding, fractals, and sPvP? No. I found what I like and that’s what I’m doing when I log in.

Whenever I feel like I need a break from all the high-end content, I go back to Queensdale or other zone and see if I can assist other players. Sometimes I just go back to some hero points in Verdant and see if other players would need a hand.

Even if it takes ArenaNet 100yrs to develop anything I would like, it wouldn’t matter to me because that would be their loss, not mine. I don’t pay monthly fee to play GW2 and they practically giving the game away. So if they want me to spend money, they need to make things I like — like cool weapon skins and hairstyles. I care less for armor skins since I already like what I got.

From the business point of view, ArenaNet has to do what they need to do to put money in their pockets so it’s up to them to figure out what makes players buy with their hard earned cash. In my case, if I get a good looking skin from a drop, I won’t even hesitate to buy gems for transmute charge. If they can make an outfit that allows me to hide a certain part of it, I would definitely buy it. I used to buy the whole set of armor and used probably 2-3 pieces from it. Since they’ve stopped that, no more cashflow for them coming from me.

Direction-wise, the game is a mess, but for a casual player like me, there’s always things to do. The one thing they need to learn to accept is that Living Story doesn’t work with the limited resources they have now. It will require making the whole Tyria evolve with the time. I like the “flashback” touch they’ve made for the Lion’s Arch cinematics, but that would have to be the case for all the story scene for the Zhaitan story arc including the whole Orr zone. I mean, Living Story-wise, Thrahearn is dead yet his Wyld Hunt didn’t come into fruition in restoring Orr. That’s the problem with Living Story and they should just stick with expansions where each expansion happened within the timeline.

Should the game have taken a different direction and stayed true to their Manifesto 1.0? Sure they could have, but we’re here now.

IMO, the Silverwastes and Tarir are great for casual players and they should focus more on making zones just like that, however, this is just my opinion.

Djinn.9245:

Razor.9872:

Djinn.9245:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Holy, dude… take a chill pill. You could have invested your time instead of writing this to a raid boss and mastering your class. It’s not that hard and if you don’t like it, don’t do it. There’s enough content for everyone.

When Anet introduces new lore ONLY accessible in raids, that is definitely something to complain about.

Correction: Anet indroduced new lore accessible in raid instances. That is not something worth complaining about, because anyone can gain access to a cleared raid instance — without even having to fight anything. That is about as close to casual as one can get; you can experience the entirety of the raid storyline as a point-n-click adventure. It’s even easier than the personal story.

I wasn’t aware that I could just access a cleared raid instance whenever I wanted. Please tell me how I can do this.

Whenever someone defeats something within a raid wing, it remains defeated -for them- for the remainder of the week.

For example, if I were to have defeated the Vale Guardian this week (if only), and I were to open the raid myself (i.e. be the first person to click the enter button for entering the raid), then VG would still be dead for me. If anyone else were to join me in my squad after I entered the raid, it would show up as defeated for them too — even if they hadn’t beaten him that same week.

If we then continued to beat Gorseval, then both VG and Gors would be defeated for me, but only Gors would be defeated for the other guy. So if we were to leave the instance, and he would to open it, then we would have to face VG again (but Gors would remain defeated). If we were to leave that instance, and I were to open it, then both VG and Gors would still be defeated, and all that would be left would be Sabitha.

So, in conclusion, all you have to do is get someone who has cleared everything and have him open the raid for you. He can then leave, but you will have full access to the wing with no bosses. Just post in the lfg for a cleared/completed raid instance. So, go in the “Looking for more” portion of the raid lfg, and post “LF Cleared Spirit Vale” or “LF Cleared Salvation Pass” or “LF Cleared Stronghold Of The Faithful”.

I’ll be honest, you may not get any luck for tens of minutes, or maybe someone will join to open it for you right away. Just keep your post up while you do something like map events, and someone is sure to come.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

Casual == wants to be able to achieve content without putting medium-to-high effort into it and enjoy the gameplay in process. Getting better is a side effect of time played and not the source of intentionally repeated training to achieve something faster and more effectively.

Raids is the first thing in the game to cater to players that want a small challenge. It’s also an incredibly small portion of the game. The entire game does not need to be casual. It’s not wrong for Anet to offer content to a specific group of players. You still have 99% of the rest of the game that is casual.

I know that the OP listed it as opinion but it is difficult to take to heart an opinion so factually inaccurate.

It would be like expecting others to take me seriously if I stated, “its my opinion that the earth revolves around the moon which is made of swiss cheese.” Sure I made a point of declaring that it was a statement of opinion rather than fact, but still.

Thank you for sharing your perceptions of the matter though OP. It can be very enlightening to see how far afield perceptions can drift.

AliamRationem.5172:

stephanie wise.7841:

maybe what he refer to is the need to get a group to be able to do the new content like meta event and raiding. sometime it is harder to get people depending on the time zone. some people at the time they play there is not enough people to do big group things. in game some people told me that they add a hard time doing some stuff in hot in the time zone they play there is not enough people to do those things. sometime it takes them 3 week or a month to finally get enough people to do it. that is the problem with meta event or game content that require lots of people. and yes what he said is true that the game said that you could do stuff on your own and participate with out the need to join a party in questing or pve content.

also some for the raids will not take every one they want specific build gears etc… so there is two side to the story. that could also be view as egoistical. what is the more egoistical not wanting to be force to join a group that force you to play the game like they want you to? or not taking people in your party because of your own preference or specific(gear, weapon, build, traits etc..) ? that was also happening in dungeon and in fractal before so it is not something new. people make division out of their own choice. and they think it will help them achieve their goal or that their way is the only way or the best way. if you never got kick in dungeon or in fractal. because some people are impatient they all died and you are the last one trying to finish the end boss and they kick you out with out saying a word. and you ask them what happen and they say to you, you waste our time we do not have all day to wait for you to kill the boss. when they have all die. example: fractal thermanova reactor end boss.

that is probably the kind of problem that makes him not like to have content to force him to be in group to achieve the content.

playing in group can be very fun but some other time not fun at all when some people enforce their rule on other by acting bad and doing stuff to other that they would not like being done to them self.

You are not forced to participate in raid content, nor are you forced to participate in groups that would exclude you. It’s unreasonable to expect a group of experienced players to carry you along.

You claim to be the majority. So find other players of like mind – players who want to raid, but feel there is a barrier to getting started – and start your own raid from scratch. You can learn as you go. Nobody will judge you. You simply have to have the patience to take it at whatever pace your group is capable of.

My guild has only completed 1 boss so far. We raid once per week if enough people show up. Our raiders volunteer to cover required roles. Nobody is ever forced to play a role they don’t wish to play. If we can’t get the right comp, we just don’t raid that week. No big deal.

If that doesn’t sound enjoyable, then go do something else. That’s certainly not a new concept in GW2.

It’s unreasonable to expect a group of experienced players to carry you along.

maybe that is the problem.

no one start something fully experienced.

and judging other saying that they are less experienced then you.

is also another problem.

if you are the last one alive finishing the boss and they kick you. is it because they feel inexperienced?

there is always something to learn. if you think you know all and only your way is better then forcing your self on other might not be the right thing to do. since there is some stuff to learn for every one. one thing is sure if you do stuff to other that you would not like being done to your self. when someone does the same thing to you who will you blame?

as for experience I am a vet in gw 1 title champion of the God full hom. in gw 2 over 22k ap wvw rank 3k+ and I started the game late.

I never kicked anyone because I think that I am better then them.

thinking that you can kick other people because you think that you are better then them show you that you still need to learn lots of things and might not be as experience as you think.

as a group it is a collective effort. the one that you kick might be the one that gave you the free ride. at the minimum he contributed to the collective effort. to kick him because he is still alive when you are dead is not helping anyone, it is jealousy and you are not able to deal with it.

when you kick people to show your superiority you have already show your inferiority. that you are blind and do not want to see it, it does not help you and other.

if you want to help other show them what they do not see or understand.

Ashen.2907:

I know that the OP listed it as opinion but it is difficult to take to heart an opinion so factually inaccurate.

It would be like expecting others to take me seriously if I stated, “its my opinion that the earth revolves around the moon which is made of swiss cheese.” Sure I made a point of declaring that it was a statement of opinion rather than fact, but still.

Thank you for sharing your perceptions of the matter though OP. It can be very enlightening to see how far afield perceptions can drift.

I sometimes read rants as the poster expressing their overall feelings. I try not to read too much into their word choices or analogies — we can pick those apart and miss the entire point.

However, I have to agree with Ashen here: the OP seems to be saying that they don’t like the moon (a fair opinion) because it’s made of swiss cheese (which is a false fact — everyone knows it’s made of green cheese).

My interpretation: the OP has some really specific expectations for the game and the game didn’t meet them and has started veering in a different direction altogether. I’m sorry that they are upset by that and I wish that instead of spending so much energy on their rant that they used similar effort to try to find people who could help them find the fun in the game that exists today.

I’m a casual player – and by that I mean I am someone that wants to dip into the game for an hour or two, play through a bit of a new story, explore a new part of the world that I haven’t seen before and have the hope (albeit small) that in doing so I might get that lucky drop that gives me a spectacular piece of kit or the ability to sell it to get a decent sum of gold in one go.

As of now, I am not catered for.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

2. I strongly believe that Raiding and PvP have not benefitted GW2

This game was not about a group of 10 people being locked into an instance that the remaining 100 behind it could not enter, that was never the intended design for this mmo even once. This mmo advocated itself infact as a game filled with challenging world bosses (world) being the enphasis, where masses of people would rally together to figure out a challenge all at once as a community, not just a guild.

Actually, the original intent was to have the instanced content be 5 player, not 10. Explorable dungeons were intended to be “challenging content for coordinated groups of skilled players.” Colin Johanson even referred to them as the GW2 equivalent of raids. They didn’t work out, so now ANet has put out a new iteration that is 10-person, and they’re trying to make it live up to the “challenging content for coordinated groups of skilled players” wording. So, leaving out the number 10, your contention that the game “was never supposed to be about a group of people locked in an instance” is factually incorrect.

Furthermore, the game IS largely about persistent world boss encounters. HoT brought a total of 9 raid boss encounters. There are 6 meta boss events in Verdant Brink alone. There are more in the other zones. Yes, the game is supposed to include such bosses, but it was never supposed to only offer those types of things to do. As for the army versus commando thing, most people zerg the HoT events the same way they do the core ones.

As for PvP:

The E-sport scene is not a good move for A-net, this attempt to pretend to be the next league of legends, or try to intergate an MMO with heavy pve/world vs world focus into a pvp scene actually detracts the greater community from itself. It isolates everyone in favor of a pocket full of people who will be nameless individuals only a minority of spectators will ever take an interest in, again, same problem, its the small minority, vs the larger majority.

ESports has always been on the agenda for ANet. I saw stuff about this aspect of the game long before launch. As for your isolation hypothesis, I doubt it holds water. Some players who PvP also do persistent world stuff. The ones who don’t wouldn’t likely participate even if there were no PvP. They’d go play LoL, or some other game.

The majority always wins, more, is always better.

While more is certainly better for ANet in terms of their metrics and bottom line, there is no evidence that focusing solely on one demographic, be it a supposed majority or not, will generate “more” for an MMO company. It is no accident that every MMO trues to appeal to multiple demographics.

Its become clear to me A-net understands by now that while raiding has obviously been a success for the playerbase that enjoys it, and e-sports is clearly fun for those actually participating, the majority who dont even get to see this content are missing out and feeling left out.

Actually, while there is some subset of the players who don’t PvP or raid who feel “left out,” there is no way to prove that that group is in any way a majority. All of the people I know who play GW2 neither PvP nor raid, and not one of them has said they feel left out.

This attempt to focus on quality over quantity may be a reflection of that in future season 3 and expansion 2 updates, this is me being blindly optimistic, but I believe it is because of that, they recognise that people want content “everyone” can be part of in large scale.

Because frankly?

Id rather be with my 2-3 friends joining a huge army fighting against other players, or dragons, or mursaat/mantle armies.

Than be forced to join 9 other specialists, who I barley know, whom will judge me on my skills, ability to participate on an active basis, and attempt to burn me for making failures I may not always be able to help.

I do despite this, want to improove at the game, I would love, for raiding to have accessability to those that want to relax and enjoy the story. I dont even mind if that content comes at the cost of no unique raid gear, I dont care.

All I want… is to enjoy the game I paid to enjoy, and I know my friends want to do the same thing.

Now I am sure, ALOT of raiders, alot of E-sports players DO, enjoy the raiding, DO, enjoy the game, infact im sure casuals that raid enjoy raiding as much as they enjoy world content.

But that content, is… no matter how the cookie is cut, exclusive.

And this game was never meant to be built on that foundation, exclusivity, was supposed to be something that GW2, was “never” meant to have.

Maybe the devs minds have changed, maybe, I dont know.

But I miss the days everyone could enjoy things at their own leisure, without feeling like they had to be on a band wagon, perform excellingly, or be forced to join guilds to enjoy content.

Because im fairly sure when this game launched, I never had to join a guild, or make a group.

I just got to play with lots of people, and we all had fun who ever was there at the time.

The beauty of the game is that you don’t have to join a guild if you don’t care to. The game offers a lot of content for non-instanced PvE and no doubt will offer more going forward. You can still do all of the things you claim to want to do. You just seem to want everything Anet adds to the game to appeal to you. What about other people who paid for the game who like those other things? Why does the whole game have to be aimed solely at your preferences? It never did in the past, except perhaps in your mind.

Other comments in the embedded quote in italics.