Guild Wars 2

The Problem with having no Roles
There are two primary problems with not having roles.
1) It undermines group cohesion.
2) It makes the difficulty curve hard to gauge and build around.

Currently, GW2 tries to have you do everything all at once, to varying degrees.
DPS isn’t a role if everybody is doing it all the time.
And so you don’t need anybody for anything particular, other then numbers.

Further more, your highly limited in how you can interact with others, to little more then combo fields, boons and poultry healing.
However for all intents and purposes, gameplay between single and multiplayer does not change, you gain nothing from playing with people.

The ultimate example of this in action is WvW. Far from working in tight nit groups, or well organized militia, you instead get noise and chaos. Big mindless zergs that rush around from one engagement to the next, where you become little more then a foot-solider, and your skills become irreverent.
It’s not that you can’t get highly organized groups, but you have to go out of your way and fight against the mechanics of the game in order to do so. It’s not a natural state.

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But also I feel that the lack of roles also hurts the difficult and challenge in this game, making it rather lopsided. Either comically easy, or ridiculously hard, with nothing in-between.

A raid or dungeon experience for instance, would have to constantly teetering on the edge of success and failure, where if someone doesn’t do their job, everyone loses.
Which makes victory all the sweeter when you succeed.
This is done because of math. With the healer/tank/dps system, you know exactly how much healing or dps, tanking etc, somebody is able to do, and calculate this out as a clear mathematical value.

Then the instance can be fine tuned to this calculation, so as to have the difficult just so to keep it engaging and rewarding, and allow for tests to check that people are able to do their job. A good dungeon experience will test each role equally.

For example, I did Ifrit Hard Mode the other day, and while the first couple of PUG’s went well, the 3rd had dps that wasn’t up to snuff. Ifrit has a phase where he summons nail adds, and if you don’t kill them before he does his special attack, you all die.
It’s a clear dps check.

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But GW2 doesn’t, and I would argue cannot do this. Because everyone is doing everything, and no one is relied on for anything particular, the difficult curve now has to account for everything. You have no idea who or what’s going to be there, or what they can do, so you have a difficult curve that is set to accommodate everything.
Making it effectively impossible to make challenging content that applies to everyone evenly.
It’s like trying to figure out a mathematical problem, when you don’t know what the values are. The answer could be anything.

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Self Sufficiency vs Group Roles
Often times in MMO’s I see these two things run in opposition to each other, but their not mutually exclusive. Being self sufficient often leads to a better single player experience, as there is not obstacle or challenge you can’t overcome with the resources that you have available.
Where clear roles allows for fluid group interplay and challenging content designed around said roles.

Again, FFXIV gives us a good example here.
I play as a healer whenever possible, and here I play a Scholar.

Normally in a lot of MMO’s, healers either cannot do any real damage, or they are forced to pick either their healing or mediocre damage, not both. Then this is coupled with content when your only ever killing things, designed for DPS, which itself is ladened with grind.

And so when killing things is 5 times slower, the single player experience for healers in that kind of game becomes a living nightmare. TERA, I’m looking at you.

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However in FFXIV, I can do damage as a Scholar, a reasonable bit in fact, more then enough for all the solo content without a lot of grind involved, as well a diversity of content. Naturally my dps doesn’t hold a candle to an actual dps, and I never had to pick to have one of the other.

But when I get into a dungeon, because of how fine tuned the content is, I don’t have the time to do anything other then heal. Sure I can throw out a dot once and a while, but the incoming damage is consistent and high enough that I need to be doing my job above all else.
With the occasional healer check, I feel mighty proud of myself when I am made to do a job, and I end up doing it well. It’s a very rewarding experience.

And then I can just go back to whatever I was doing.

An example of a bad healer is the Monk from GW1.
While you could do damage, between the limited skill slots and attribute points, you were forced to pick either great healing, or so-so damage. So in other words if you wanted to be a monk, you could only ever heal, and nothing else.

Not to mention that if your only running with NPC’s and heroes, healing them is no fun either. But where it got particularly bad, was where the game expected you to have a healer ie monk, and tested them, but only them.
You could have just about any other profession, but without a monk you were screwed, and if anything EVER went wrong, it was the fault of the monk.
It didn’t matter how bad anyone else was, it’s the monks fault.

And that was a result of just fundamentally bad game design.

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How GW2 could have Roles – A Soft Trinity
Now of course GW2 could have roles other then healer/tank/dps, but as I already stated these have to have to be clear and necessary. However, we already know that the holy trinity works, and can work well, and how it works.

But what’s really interesting, is how they could be implemented as GW2 has some very interesting mechanics that would make it stand out from other MMO’s in this regard.

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What I am advocating for, in not a hard trinity like in most MMO’s, where you either have a healer or your completely dead in the water, and a healer is limited to one or two classes where that is all they do.

But rather, a soft trinity.
Where each profession fills one or two roles, and can switch between them without too much investment or downtime, but they can’t do both at the same time.
Traits wise, they can be good at both, or excellent at one and exclude the other.
In addition, every profession still can heal themselves, abut to a limited degree, which is idle for the single player experience, but not necessarily enough for group content.

So limited self sufficiency, plus role specialization.

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So for example, the healer professions could be the Elementalist, Engineer, and Guardian. Each with their own mechanics.
The Elementalist can either be a dps or a healer, but due to it’s attunements it can only be doing one of these things at any one time. Provided the amount of damage to be healed is high enough, you could find yourself stuck doing one over the other.
Their’s nothing stopping you from doing dps, it’s just your needed for healing.

Likewise, the Engineer has it’s kits, and the Guardian has weapon swaps.

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And due to the innate self sufficiency every profession shares, it is possible, not easy, but possible to do dungeon group content without a dedicated healer or a tank, so long as there is enough wiggle room for people to off-tank or off-heal.
ie, an Elementalist there for dps, occasionally throwing out a heal.

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Naturally this would require the heals to heal more, and the tanks to tank more, as dps is the only thing we already have in spades.
Namely via tweaking Healing Power, and the effectiveness of the base armor values each of the armor types. ie, Make heavy armor absorb more damage.

Meet the Heavy
Tanking I think is arguably more difficult to implement, as mechanics like Aggro don’t really exist in the game, at least not in a clear and defined sense.

However like healing, I feel that tanking should be active and positional based, rather then standing around absorbing hits while going through a skill rotation.
A couple of the best games I’ve seen do this is Dark Souls and Monster Hunter, as using a shield is active, you raise it only when you need to block, and you can only do it so long. This requires stamina with each hit blocked, which is also used for running and dodging.

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So this is what I am thinking, change the mechanics with the Shield offhand so that you can raise it at will a block whatever incoming damage coming from the front of you, like Shield Stance but directional. When you block this way it takes it out of your endurance bar relative to how much damage you would have taken.
Perhaps this could be instead of evasion but only when you have the shield out, and as such use the same button. So if you want to evade, you need to switch weapons.

In addition, while blocking you move at half speed. But you block projectiles, cone attacks and line nukes, thus protecting anyone standing behind you from assault so long as you have the endurance to do so. And can be traited to cover a wider area of protection. Also, once your endurance runs out you should still be able to block per say, but you will take reduced damage, perhaps stacking vulnerability each hit or something.
I’d even go so far as to have it body block people for PvP and WvW purposes.

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Next is aggro and telegraphing mechanics.
I don’t think enmity should exist in the game, and so their is no way to control an enemy to only ever attack the one person, but rather it attacks people for other criteria.

Say the monster enters ‘Frenzy’ status, which means it will attack whoever is doing the most damage to it and ignore everyone else. So in order for the tank to tank, the dps need to back off for a bit and just let the tank hit it to get it’s attention.
It can also cripple or chill it to slow it down, and force it’s attention back to themselves. (I know it’s kind of like that already, but it’s vague at best)
Other status symbols that donate to the enemies aggro behavior would go a long way, as it would require the party to pay attention and not draw aggro to themselves.

This also requires telegraphing it’s attacks, and showing who it is aggroed to and when it switches targets via UI elements. FFXIV does this by showing an arrow that going from the enemy to it’s new target when it’s aggro switches.

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Attacks themselves need to be much better telegraphed, because a pitiful red ring doesn’t cut it. Instead, the same UI elements players use when using their skills, such as the line nuke of Bladetrail or the fan shot of Poison Volley, take them dye them red, and re-purpose them for enemy attacks before they use them.

And so like in FFXIV, a big part of tanking isn’t just absorbing hits, it’s facing the target and it’s attacks away from your party members.

I can just see a boss switch to target the healer, preparing a massive line nuke, requiring the tank to whip their shield out, and put themselves between it and the healer, and try to cling on for dear life.

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As for the tanks themselves: Warrior, Guardian and Necromancer.
With the Engineer, Elementalist and maybe Mesmer being off tank.
(Engineer and Ele can access shields, mesmer has clones)

The Warrior primarily tanks via it’s Shield and having a deeper health pool, and solid natural armor. It can also do respectable direct damage, and is fairly mobile, able to get in and out of range.

The Guardian also uses a Shield, but relies more on buffs and self healing to keep itself alive. More about protecting allies then tanking hits, having more traits geared to protecting a wider area and preventing enemy movements. Strong and holding a single position, but much less mobile.

The Necromancer is a bit of an odd duck, since it’s not really able to block attacks per say, but rather absorbing them. Like a Shield, it’s Death Shroud protects anyone behind or around them, sort of like a mobile Sanctuary.
Combined with it’s impressive damage over time, it excels at negating attacks before they happen. (blind, weakness etc)

So what about the DPS?
GW2 already basically has dps in spades, so effectively anybody not healing or tanks is on dps. Although like tanking and healing checks, I would have dps checks as well.

The only problem I see in this is what to do with the Thief and Mesmer, since they are more purely dps professions, that deal primarily in deception and non-direct engagement. Maybe the can off tank in a way, but I doubt it, and healing is out of the question.

Maybe if the content rewarded/required avoidance and non-engagement, like grabbing a key to a door without getting caught, or disarming a trap that targets you if your visible.

Otherwise, I don’t have a good answer for you. And I main a Mesmer, so I can see this screwing me up if not handled well.

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The Future of GW2?
All in all, I see bringing back the holy trinity, even as a soft and very different form being the best course of action for the long term health of the game. I think Arenanet were awesome for trying something new and different, and I was largely indifferent when they decided to get rid of the holy trinity in the beginning.

But having played the game as long as I have, and seen similar games as to compare, I now think that GW2’s multiplayer is incredibly weak. Nice effort, but it’s didn’t pan out.

I don’t like not being able to work together with other people in any meaningful sense.
I don’t like not being relied upon to do a simple job, or not being able to rely on others.
I can live with waiting to find people for a group, or failing because somebody couldn’t do their job, because the rewards are more then worth it.

And I just don’t see much of a future in a multiplayer game where your effectively cut off from everybody, where everything is watered down to the lowest common denominator and any idiot will do. It’s not fun, it’s a pointless waste of time.

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Currently, all the game really has going for it, at least for me is it’s excellent single player experience. But if that’s all you were going to do, why make an MMO in the first place?

I didn’t read it all.

But I will say this. Removal of the trinity doesn’t mean no team work….it only means no team work for how it’s done here. Arguably there is more team work in dungeons like the new TA path and of course stuff like Tequatl.

Remember, without a trinity, the development process has to evolve. We’ve had years and years and years of people developing for a trinity and not years and years and years of people developing without a trinity.

I personally believe the trinity is dead…it just doesn’t know it yet….but here’s my problem with the trinity.

If Lord of the Rings was written so that the enemy only attacked Boromir while Gandalf healed him, it would have sucked.

It sucks waiting for healers. I sucks waiting for tanks. It sucks when you have to depend on people who may or may not be good.

Oh and pro tip. If you play with the same people over and over instead of pugging, ie join a guild, there’s plenty of teamwork to be had.

I don’t miss the trinity at all. It can stay gone.

working together:
1. peter lays down a water field
2. jane, mary, sharon, susan blasts the water field
3. area healing, area healing every where

who says people are not working together?

also:
light field > blast = area retaliation
fire field > blast = area might
pink field > blast = area chaos armor
etc

source:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

To be honest man, I read to the point where you claimed that there’s no teamwork in this game. That’s just not true, and you’ve apparently not had enough experience of organized playing to see that, which makes it redundant to read the rest of your post. I glanced over the last part, and it seems like a suggestion to convert the current classes into classic trinity-esque jigsaw pieces.

It’s not gonna happen man, and I’m glad for it.

If there’s something that ArenaNet stayed true to is that they said that for dungeons you would bring the player rather than the role. I think this argument has been made since the launch of the game. While trinity isn’t necessarily a flawed system, it also isn’t a system that an MMORPG absolutely must have. I myself wrote a wall of text detailing the combat in the game and I touch on the lack of trinity. I can’t find the thread now since it’s been so long and buried somewhere.

Your arguments are made from the perspective of a veteran MMORPG player. Try to look at this from someone who is completely new to MMORPGs. If Guild Wars 2 was your very first MMORPG and you got used to the combat and the group dynamics, do you think you would be able to pick up a traditional MMORPG with dedicated roles? No, it would feel like you went from using touch dial phones to using rotary phones. You might not even know what a rotary phone is despite the fact that they have been around for much longer than touch dial phones and despite the fact that they still work.

Believe it or not, the game does offer moments where players can play certain roles but they are not forced into those roles based on their profession. The latest TA dungeon path shows this mechanic at work. Having dedicated roles means having to design enemies around these roles. The fact there there is a dedicated tank and there is a dedicated healer makes it necessary to add damage that is completely unavoidable or else the content becomes trivialized.

Crescendoll.7612:

To be honest man, I read to the point where you claimed that there’s no teamwork in this game. That’s just not true, and you’ve apparently not had enough experience of organized playing to see that, which makes it redundant to read the rest of your post. I glanced over the last part, and it seems like a suggestion to convert the current classes into classic trinity-esque jigsaw pieces.

It’s not gonna happen man, and I’m glad for it.

I’ve been everything from large serious guilds to small lacked ones, and have participated in every guild event and activity, and most dungeons, most of it on voice chat, since the release of the game.
Don’t bloody tell me that I’m inexperienced.

And stating that there is teamwork as fact without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. Which wasn’t my core argument, which shows how little you actually understood or read for that matter. But rather I consider the multiplayer to be weak as a result of having no roles.

By all means, make a case from how wonderful the teamwork in this game is vs other games, despite roles being almost non-existent. I am not being coy, I actually genuinely want to know if people think that the multiplayer in this game is actual any good, and more specifically, why.

I was reading another MMOs forum the other day. It was a thread about getting rid of tanks and GW2 was brought up, “GW2 tried to get rid of the trinity and look how well that went for them…”

Look at any general video game forum except this one and you will find the same things mentioned about this game and why they don’t like it: No roles (trinity), no instanced (real) raids and zergs everywhere.

Seriously, the only support for ‘zerker gear and dodging over a proper or soft trinity is on these forums and even here it’s split. The majority have voted with their wallets, this game should be up and over 10M players by now, but they still fester in another game with a 14 year old engine and terrible current direction.

finally some1 with a brain that write better than me.

i did play other game for holy trinity experience here and there, but most game isnt on par or better than gw2 and therefor not worth grinding or gold to farm.
i played tank for all game, now you see what i miss in guild wars 2 ?

zeromius.1604:

If there’s something that ArenaNet stayed true to is that they said that for dungeons you would bring the player rather than the role. I think this argument has been made since the launch of the game. While trinity isn’t necessarily a flawed system, it also isn’t a system that an MMORPG absolutely must have. I myself wrote a wall of text detailing the combat in the game and I touch on the lack of trinity. I can’t find the thread now since it’s been so long and buried somewhere.

Your arguments are made from the perspective of a veteran MMORPG player. Try to look at this from someone who is completely new to MMORPGs. If Guild Wars 2 was your very first MMORPG and you got used to the combat and the group dynamics, do you think you would be able to pick up a traditional MMORPG with dedicated roles? No, it would feel like you went from using touch dial phones to using rotary phones. You might not even know what a rotary phone is despite the fact that they have been around for much longer than touch dial phones and despite the fact that they still work.

Believe it or not, the game does offer moments where players can play certain roles but they are not forced into those roles based on their profession. The latest TA dungeon path shows this mechanic at work. Having dedicated roles means having to design enemies around these roles. The fact there there is a dedicated tank and there is a dedicated healer makes it necessary to add damage that is completely unavoidable or else the content becomes trivialized.

Hey, someone who actually knows their stuff.
I think you make a lot of good points, and I definitely think that GW2’s system has a lot of great perks, and GW1 was my 1st MMO so I’m used to not quite holy trinity, slight off the beaten path combat/group mechanics, so it’s not that I don’t appreciate what Anet have done here.

But to ignore the problems I think is folly.

Multiplayer I don’t think is a strong as it could be, not within miles, and the difficult curve kind of got shot out of a cannon. Mind you the latter could be just a case of needing time to be able to gauge and create content around, something that is just a little easier with tried and true systems.

And so, could you tell me what you think of the new TA path, as I am still invested in playing FFXIV for the meantime and haven’t had a chance to play it first hand yet.
What these new mechanics are exactly?

In the text, you said:

However, it’s also not a role if the game never requires it of you.
Stealth for instance is something only the Thief and Mesmer have, but there is never any instance where they game asks “Do you have stealth? If not you fail”, and so it’s not a role, just a class mechanic.

I disagree on roles. I don’t want LFG to devolve into: “LF SHADOW REFUGE THIEF! LF SHADOW REFUGE THIEF! LF SHADOW REFUGE THIEF!”

What really needs to happen is that every single skill in the game should be important at least once per a fight.

Cripple, immobilization, chill, stuns, poison, bleeds, heals, aegis, regeneration, vigor, that unreliable launch that guardians have, that long cooldown sanctuary that guardian has, that worthless kick that warriors have, etc.

All of them skills should be useful at any point of time. If there is a random build generator, every single build that comes out should all be useful in some ways or another.

This means reworking the dungeons, the mobs, and the boss. A single mob battle should be similar to PvP, where CC is useful. Mobs actually care for their own and try to save their dying allies. Mobs will never let your dying party member go scot free. Mobs that randomly burst out of nowhere to change the tide of battle. etc etc….

From my personal experience and my opinion, I love and will always love the trinity and dedicated roles.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m still here and playing gw2 since launch. But I’m with you Yoh. I miss the days of eq and eq2, worrying about aggro/dropping aggro, turning the mobs, charmed pulls, etc etc. I miss the rush of playing my warden in eq2 and being the only healer. Having to constantly be on my toes to make sure I keep wards and HoT on the group and at the same time keep all my buffs up for the group. Or playing my bruiser and trying to pull the mobs back and keep them on me or if they break off me try to rip them off our healer before they get crushed.

The trinity will always have it’s place in mmos. You basically have it in gw2, just not as noticeable. You want to role a healer, take a staff ele or ah heal away guardian.. Dps go thief/war/necro. Control, Go ranger/eng/Mesmer. Tank, go guard/war.

I honestly, from the deepest part of the feels, think they could’ve added in the trinity, just not as dedicated as say eq or wow. As it sits now, we have mindless zergs running around smashing buttons… Drop a field , hit the blast finisher… Not a rush.

I miss the big coordinated effort of raids like…“Tanks group up here, cycle through who’s tanking tequatl then drop aggro and let the next tank in line take him for 20 secs. Keep up the stuns and blocks. Healers group up here. Call out your tank, stay on him and do not let him die!!! If he’s dead get him back up immediately!! Keep HoT and buffs up and drop aggro if you take it. Dps stay behind the tequatl, if you pull him you better hope he kills you because I will if he doesn’t. If you do pull him, turn him back to the tanks and either drop aggro or die, but don’t let him aoe our healers. Control, get between the healers and tequatl. If he breaks free we need our healers alive! Keep the charms and stuns on cd and keep steady dps and buffs on the tanks!!! Everyone ready!?!? Let’s go!”

HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLL NOOOOO

No trinity =)

Yoh.8469:

Believe it or not, the game does offer moments where players can play certain roles but they are not forced into those roles based on their profession. The latest TA dungeon path shows this mechanic at work. Having dedicated roles means having to design enemies around these roles. The fact there there is a dedicated tank and there is a dedicated healer makes it necessary to add damage that is completely unavoidable or else the content becomes trivialized.

Hey, someone who actually knows their stuff.
I think you make a lot of good points, and I definitely think that GW2’s system has a lot of great perks, and GW1 was my 1st MMO so I’m used to not quite holy trinity, slight off the beaten path combat/group mechanics, so it’s not that I don’t appreciate what Anet have done here.

But to ignore the problems I think is folly.

Multiplayer I don’t think is a strong as it could be, not within miles, and the difficult curve kind of got shot out of a cannon. Mind you the latter could be just a case of needing time to be able to gauge and create content around, something that is just a little easier with tried and true systems.

And so, could you tell me what you think of the new TA path, as I am still invested in playing FFXIV for the meantime and haven’t had a chance to play it first hand yet.
What these new mechanics are exactly?

The new TA path shows that you ArenaNet can make things challenging without resorting to having dedicated roles. Granted, players often have to ‘pick up’ jobs to get things done. This is a huge departure from traditional MMORPGs though. There is this part right before the first boss fight where two people have to lure oozes towards this machine to get the door to open. They’ll put this boon on you that basically gives you aggro. There are these flame elemental worms that spawn and they will attack the oozes if they aren’t dealt with. Basically the group as a whole has to protect the oozes while they are lured in place.

The first boss fight also uses the ooze mechanic. I won’t get into too many details on this. There is this one puzzle that requires the group as a whole to work together. It’s similar to some of the Arah puzzles but more interesting. The second boss isn’t really that dependent on team dynamics although you’d have a hard time downing him with your teammates dead. You could say he caters to the action game enthusiasts which isn’t actually a bad thing. The last boss is somewhat interesting in that someone or anyone really can pull one of the adds over to remove an invulnerability boon from the boss. It’s not an absolutely necessary role but it helps more than just kiting the boss to the add.

Getting back to what I said about dedicated roles requiring certain design patterns. Guild Wars 2 is a very action focused game in that you as the player have a great deal of control over your character’s fate. I would say that almost all abilities are dodgeable in this game. The sense of satisfaction gained from being in control is something you don’t get in traditional MMORPGs. If an enemy lands a big attack on you, you know its your own fault and not the random number generator screwing you over. I’m aware that games with dedicated roles still have damage that is completely avoidable. It’s where the meme “get out of the fire” originated from.

The problem ultimately comes down to control. If the tank fails to maintain threat on an enemy and the enemy turns on you there’s not much you can do to avoid getting killed in one hit. Yes, there are threat resetting mechanics but there’s nothing you can do to mitigate or avoid an attack already in progress without blowing some sort of cooldown. Pulling your e-brake is not the same as routinely stepping on the brake pedal. Having dedicated roles might seem necessary but it also means that you’re going to pay for someone else’s mistakes. Even if you play perfectly, if someone else screws up you have absolutely no recourse.

I understand that when you are in a team the team should either succeed together or fail together. This is true of sports. I think though that ArenaNet wanted to make dungeon groups less like sports groups and more like a squad of soldiers. While one soldier getting killed could greatly reduce the effectiveness of the squad, the remaining members could still complete their mission. Team work in a squad is still vital to the success of the mission but one member’s mistakes won’t always jeopardize the mission. When you look at Guild Wars 2’s dungeon groups this way you can see that the trinity isn’t necessary.

Well I think stepping of the Holy Trinity was not perse a bad thing and giving everybody some form om healing power was also nod a bad think. The problem however is indeed that they are missing roles like you say.

Taking out the holy trinity is oke but then replace it. When I did read that they would take away the holy trinity I believed them to indeed replace it with something else but they didn’t. Now there are two classes favorite but no class is really needed.

They should still have a role for a tank and a role for a healer but maybe also other roles. Make it so the pets of rankers of there range really becomes of good use in groups. Make sure the portals of mesmers have there own unique useful use, make sure the invisibility from thiefs give there own unique and useful use. But in practice you still need healing and tank but you don’t need anything else so people use the two classes that sort of can give that.. warrior and guardian.

If they can not make a system with more requires roles then they should indeed have kept the holy trinity but removing that by itself is not the problem. Not replacing it with other roles is. You now never have the feeling like you are really contributing your parts you are just all smashing some buttons. It’s more that feeling. With the holy trinity you did feel like participating. As healer making sure everybody had health.. always checking everybody. As tank making sure you kept aggro and as DPS to also see if the healer was not getting agro / protecting him and trying to kill the mob before the tank was down other other mobs would be walking by. You all had task and so you all felt like really contributing to the fight.

GW2 does have teamwork in spades. A vague analysis of team compositions in tPvP, WvW or dungeons would show that each of them are in fact very concerned with what they carry around.

Deimos brought up Combo fields and that’s one of the big things. Specific classes have ample access to specific combo fields, while other classes have little to no access to that type of field. Things like stacking Might, area healing, area retaliation or are swiftness is very important.

Also, your suggested revamp will not cause the current people to play more, it would be more likely to cause majority of the current playerbase to quit and be replaced with an entirely different one. For example, I have like 800 hours on my Warrior and if you turned him into a tank all of a sudden, I would be quitting. My other level 80 is a Thief and if you suddenly turned him into a DD, I would be quitting that as well, because DDs get shunned in games where tanks/healers are top priority. I also wouldn’t be playing a healer because I find that playstyle to be boring. So I would have nothing left to play.

Also, your suggested change of taking away aoe heals and lowering personal heals would never go over well with the playerbase. Taking away aoe heals literally kills a ton of support builds, some of which are for Guardian, Warrior and Thief, who would now be forced to tank or DD. And the personal heals? Well, that would go against the whole mantra of being able to complete most content solo. Because a lot of that stuff depends on the personal healing that you can get.

I must say OP has really good points there.

It beats me how can people not realise simple fact that holly trinity would made boss fights ( mechanics), so much more versatile and interesting then without heal,tank,dps system.

PVE in GW2 lacking sooo much (i am speaking for myself here) and is just outright boring.

ON the other hand,i like how current system works in PVP and combat system is very interesting and fun (tho there is WAST space for improvements),so i am kinda split with my opinnion bout holly trinity.

For me..it sucks in PVE and i hate PVE in this game,but it works pretty good in PVP.

Oh yes…for people who thinks that they would have problem to find groups,did you read LFG pannel latelly?:P

Its like..you open it and in description you see (all in caps ofc) “ONLY WARRIORS AND MESMERS”…." ONLY 5K ACHI POINTS PEOPLE" (this is easily my favourite ever:P) and kitten like that.

Its there guys..you dont need holly trinity for this kind of behaviour .

Cheers

Personally I’m against the holy trinity, because I’m spent a long time trying out mmos looking for one that does not bring the baggage that the holy trinity brings.

But for the purposes of this discussion, I’ll just assume that Anet has gone on to make distinct roles based on professions and mechanics.

This then brings up the following concerns that I have:

1) Content revolving around the Holy Trinity.
A trinity system is useless in the current context of GW2 because there is no content that requires it. To make a trinity system meaningful, we need content that necessitates such roles.

Tequatl fights aimed at large numbers of players will make the trinity system very unwieldy. As it is, it is very difficult to coordinate large numbers of players without specific profession-based mechanics. Getting hundreds of players to coordinate heals and agro management will be a challenge.

Rather, I think it makes more sense to have trinity-based content designed with dungeons (and maybe fractals?) in mind.

I’d be more open to a trinity system if it started out with small groups first.

2) Profession Segregation and Pigeonholing
The 4 Warrior + 1 Mesmer group composition had a good run. But some might view it as restrictive and discriminatory. However it was just one path in a dungeon.

If a trinity system becomes the norm, then there should be some way of monitoring the playerbase to make sure that content does not end up discriminating/favouring certain professions.

For a trinity-based system in GW2, I would consider “LFM 1 Tank, 1 Healer” to be acceptable, but “LFM 1 Warrior, 1 Guardian” to be flawed. I would be more open to a trinity-based system if there were constant fixes and balances done to ensure that one class doesn’t dominate others in a specific role.

3) Gearing for Roles
WoodenPotatoes briefly touched on this in one of his vids, and I’m inclined to agree. Currently our gear selection goes a long way in defining our playstyle, but collecting gear is no longer trivial, especially with ascended gear coming up.

If we can quickly change roles on the fly, then it wouldn’t be an issue. But the majority of stats still come from gear/upgrades. And for GW2 at least, changing traits without the gear to back it up is lacklustre.

I would be more open to a trinity-based system if there is less emphasis on gear, and more on swappable skills/traits.

just trying to point out, vindictus is similar or better to guild wars 2 in term of gameplay combat.

-too not have holy trinity, every shemale is dps.
-same can dodge roll, this ruined my experience with other game that cant dodge roll.
-also have shield user that was non existence .but shield user can block, and no guild wars 2 30s cooldown block isnt called blocking. more like " o kitten button" in WoW

but if gw2 like vindictus can pull boss feet or disarm the boss or hook from 2 side, i m also ok with boss fight like this

I have to take issue with your definition of what a ‘role’ is.

To me, a ‘role’ is your purpose in the group, and not class distinction and dependency on certain classes for content.

With this definition, you can have roles without resorting to making specific classes a specific profession, by creating content with ‘roles’ built into the fight itself.

Not only does this not exclude certain classes, but it also allows for a wider variety of ‘role’ mechanics. Depending on what these mechanics are can also potentially incorporate greater teamwork than the Trinity, as well as a more dynamic role system (as in, players roles change in the fight).

So, for example, reworking the CoF Effigy fight, you have 3 main mechanics:

• 5 crystals, each of which apply damage reduction between 50% and 100%, as well as granting the regen effect, depending on how many are active. The reason for the added damage reduction is so that players cannot easily bruteforce the mechanic. Destroying these crystals inflicts a stacking debuff that increases the damage and duration of any Burning applied. Non cleansable. Lets call it Searing Crystal Radiation.
• On occasion, 2 other crystals drop that do progressively bigger AoE waves(so say the first is 200 radius, then 360 ect until eventually you have two overlapping AoE’) every x seconds, that deals damage and causes Burning and, if the AoE hits the boss, grants Might.

In this fight, you have a number of roles:

• Crystal clearing duty – both the damage reduction crystals and the AoE crystals. The stacking debuff means that players have to communicate who’s available for this role.
• Condition removal – Because of the frequency of the Burning condition, and how dangerous it can be to those with the debuff on them. However, simply spamming the condition removal will result in periods where you don’t have it when you’ll need it most. This is more of a fast-paced role that can be dedicated to one person, or spread amongst players.
• Boss Control – to stop the boss going after the ones who are destroying the crystals. Immobilise, Cripple, Chilled ect.
• Boss DPS – Hitting the boss. Simple enough.

I still think not having a holy trinity can’t compete with the holy trinity development of many years by many companies, unless people continue to develop stuff to replace it. It was never going to happen overnight. It’s like all early trinity fights were basically tank and spank until people got tired of it and then it went to other things. When you design, you stand on the shoulders of the guy who designed before you. For a multiplayer MMO this is almost uncharted territory. Stuff has to be tried, it has to fail, it has to be refined over and over again for years before a true “replacement” for the trinity is found. It was never going to happen on day one or even in year one. But it will happen.

The other side of the coin is development. The trinity doesn’t just hamstring players into roles, but it hamstrings developers to make content for those roles. If SOMEONE doesn’t get away from the trinity, we’ll never know as players what else could be there.

Spitjaw.2987:

I must say OP has really good points there.

It beats me how can people not realise simple fact that holly trinity would made boss fights ( mechanics), so much more versatile and interesting then without heal,tank,dps system.

PVE in GW2 lacking sooo much (i am speaking for myself here) and is just outright boring.

ON the other hand,i like how current system works in PVP and combat system is very interesting and fun (tho there is WAST space for improvements),so i am kinda split with my opinnion bout holly trinity.

For me..it sucks in PVE and i hate PVE in this game,but it works pretty good in PVP.

Oh yes…for people who thinks that they would have problem to find groups,did you read LFG pannel latelly?:P

Its like..you open it and in description you see (all in caps ofc) “ONLY WARRIORS AND MESMERS”…." ONLY 5K ACHI POINTS PEOPLE" (this is easily my favourite ever:P) and kitten like that.

Its there guys..you dont need holly trinity for this kind of behaviour .

Cheers

Natural I agree, I feel that GW2 has very strong PvP in small numbers, and a fantastic single player experience, which is a direct result of their class system.

And so I feel this weird conflict, as it just the multiplayer part that tend to suffer, it’s a very bazaar problem to have.
It occasionally does awesome things, but for the most part it’s noise and chaos.
Which is part and parcel of going with a new system.

MrIllusion.5304:

3) Gearing for Roles
WoodenPotatoes briefly touched on this in one of his vids, and I’m inclined to agree. Currently our gear selection goes a long way in defining our playstyle, but collecting gear is no longer trivial, especially with ascended gear coming up.

If we can quickly change roles on the fly, then it wouldn’t be an issue. But the majority of stats still come from gear/upgrades. And for GW2 at least, changing traits without the gear to back it up is lacklustre.

I would be more open to a trinity-based system if there is less emphasis on gear, and more on swappable skills/traits.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a huge fan of the Holy Trinity either, hence my opening remarks. I do think however there is something to be learned from it.
And you may be right, that ascended gear could alleviate the problem somewhat.

And there could be easier solutions that don’t require overhauling the system or the content. Maybe just tweaking effectiveness of armor, or toughness/vitality, I do think that healing power could do with a little more gusto.

It could be just more skills like Shadow Refuge, or Portal, as not every class has one of these uber useful skills at their disposal, ie the Ranger kinda gets screwed in that regard.
I guess part of my problem is that the profession aren’t quite distinct and separate enough from each other, and there isn’t any solid mechanic for players as a group to build and unify around, instead every runs off in their own direction, and you end up with everyone doing everything all at once.

My experience in my guild groups and PuGs, outdoors, including some WvW is that, while there are not clearly defined roles, I would never say any profession is self-sufficient except when soloing.

I have played “support” and “dps” and “tank” in GW2. Not in an absolute definitive way, but as a playstyle combined with gear and build. And neither of those are “pure”, thank goodness. I am not 100% forced to make a choice between healing or dps. I can act like a “tank”. But I am not locked into that role.

I actually enjoy the fact that I can at any given moment, on almost any profession here, do all of the above and it does not matter whether I am in cloth, leather or armor. What matters is my skill in playing, speccing and gearing myself. And what I choose to contribute and how.

My guild runs groups synergistically old school style. It is the combination of our professions, builds, gear, and playstyle that allows us to walk any where in this game and be successful without having to change gear/build for that specific play. We weave our abilities together, all of us contributing dps, all of us having enough built in defense for ourselves, and providing enough support/heals (some more than others) that we can get through dungeons/fractals with one less person than most groups.

I’m very happy the game does not force me to make trade-offs between professions, does not lock me into specific roles, allows me to play situationally outside of rigid class-boundaries and let’s ME decide how and what to contribute. And I’m not bored playing a one-dimensional play-to-the-dps-meter or weak support-only character.

If this game had Trinity play, it would need to provide a /follow function, so I could do what I have done in the past: play tank, dps and healer on 3 accounts at the same time manually.

Otherwise, I’m bored.

TheDaiBish “gets” it.

Why is it everytime i see a post about wanting trinaty back its from an ex tank/ ex healer…
do you miss the time when you were popular for being a bog standard player but still getting invited as you were needed?
do you miss when all you really did was stand there takeing hits/ healing at range
do you really miss that fame cause you played a boreing roll?

things i dont miss are…
waiting for a healer/tank to come online to do some basic main game content
haveing to roll a healer or tank as a second choice just to join somthing then being rediculed as im not 100% tank/healer therefore i not “the best”
a class not getting any intresting dynamics as all it does is stand and heal you/others
a class litteraly as a meat shield

try making a dungeon / instance like SAB where holy trinity exist,
then we see how the crowd favors

As much as I miss the trinity. This game was designed for the people scorned from that kind of game. They really could have had a multiclass system where people could switch between roles. No luck finding a cleric? Hold on let me load my healing template and put on my healing gear and I`ll main heal. Can`t find a tank? Hold on let me load my tanking template and get my plate armor out of the bank, I`ll handle it. But they choose to go with this system. It`s probably for the best though. we can`t even change the attack skills on our hotbar. Imagine how screwed up a multiclass system would be with predefined skills as well.

The OP wrote a well thought out, coherent missive that explains his point of view very well.

My take on it:

I am an MMO vet as well. Everything I have ever played (save for GW2) has a trinity. I don’t play any of them any more.

Why?

Because I hate having characters sit in storage doing nothing because the only thing people want to bring to a fight is (insert role here.) So many years looking at LFG queues that say “Healer wanted for X” or “Tank needed for Boss Fight Y” while the lesser played non-trinity role characters sit gathering dust.

God forbid that my favorite class to play isn’t a trinity class. If I want in a group in these other games, I absolutely HAVE to roll a class that’s wanted or needed in a group, or I sit around in town begging for a group that wants to “support” me.

This reason, above every other is the reason that I believe the trinity is a dead concept.

GW1 had a trinity of sorts, but there were multiple professions that could spec to do the heal thing, or the tank thing, or the DPS thing. It wasn’t quite trinity-free, but they made an attempt at it. Aion did as well, making a class or two that didn’t quite fit the “trinity mold.” GW2 is the only game that has done away with the traditional holy trinity altogether.

It’s not a matter of who does what role and more. It’s a matter of being so ingrained into our minds that the holy trinity is necessary in the first place. After years of playing that way, it’s hard to undo all that knowledge.

So, at the risk of sounding like a troll, we all need to “learn to play” when it comes to removing the trinity. Bringing it back only serves to make us all move in the wrong direction.

But then again, this is only the opinion of one player among thousands.

No we do not need the trinity, and there are already roles in this game, but people just don’t like them.

They can create meaningful teamwork without rebuilding the professions into a trinity. I think combos are far too weak and many of them barely matter, for exmple.

I do think that they should emphasize roles more, but without forcing specific prefessions into them. For that to work they just need to make something besides dps actually matter, which is mostly not the case.

I don’t miss fixed roles for class X in GW2. But what i would like to see, is more content that needs control and/or support builds instead of pure DPS.

Yoh.8469:

Bravo Arenanet, bravo.
But it there where I finally figured out what missing in GW2 that prevented me from enjoying GW2 endgame all this time: Roles.
There are no roles in this game, you never have to work together in anything but the loosest of senses, and you never rely on anybody for anything.

Which leads to a incredibly dull multiplayer experience, and for a massively “multiplayer” online game, that is a colossal problem.
And as such, I think that this move away from the Holy Trinity, however well intention, may have been a wrong move in the end.

I will respond to this part. So, in your opinion other types of multiplayer games have also a very dull multiplayer experience, for example Diablo, Torchlight or other online action-rpgs are incredibly dull by your definition, even online FPS games like Call of Duty and Battlefield are incredibly dull too. They don’t have clearly defined roles either, you can switch your “role” at any time, much like in Guild Wars 2. What was greatly needed in the MMO genre was the total removal of “LF Healer/Tank” messages that the Holy Trinity made so common, you don’t play any other type of online multiplayer and wait for someone with the proper skillset to help you, just jump in and play.

You say you don’t want the typical Holy Trinity but if you add any type of clearly defined roles you will always run the problem (Especially is one of them is the dreaded Healer) of groups requiring that specific role in their groups, which leads to a lot of problems.

Everyone can drop heals, CC, buff, debuff, absorb damage and deal damage at any time which is great.

in GW2, party combat can still based on the holy trinity to build for. Any class with tanky build is able to take some serious damage, and tank for a while, but not tanking forever. Class like ele and guardian can make good healer combined with protection / aegis / blind / CC for the team.

The only differences is, good players in GW2 is able to take care of themselves and therefore Tank and healer are not REQUIRED. This changed the traditional tank and healer carry the rest of the party through hard content, to: good player carry bad player through hard contents.

If a player got teamwork in mind, he/she will bring some utilities to support the party, and also be watchful to party members that need aid. There are tons of ways to bring teamwork to the table, team buff, team block, team stealth, CC, combo field etc.

Ashabhi.1365:

The OP wrote a well thought out, coherent missive that explains his point of view very well.

My take on it:

I am an MMO vet as well. Everything I have ever played (save for GW2) has a trinity. I don’t play any of them any more.

Why?

Because I hate having characters sit in storage doing nothing because the only thing people want to bring to a fight is (insert role here.) So many years looking at LFG queues that say “Healer wanted for X” or “Tank needed for Boss Fight Y” while the lesser played non-trinity role characters sit gathering dust.

God forbid that my favorite class to play isn’t a trinity class. If I want in a group in these other games, I absolutely HAVE to roll a class that’s wanted or needed in a group, or I sit around in town begging for a group that wants to “support” me.

This reason, above every other is the reason that I believe the trinity is a dead concept.

GW1 had a trinity of sorts, but there were multiple professions that could spec to do the heal thing, or the tank thing, or the DPS thing. It wasn’t quite trinity-free, but they made an attempt at it. Aion did as well, making a class or two that didn’t quite fit the “trinity mold.” GW2 is the only game that has done away with the traditional holy trinity altogether.

It’s not a matter of who does what role and more. It’s a matter of being so ingrained into our minds that the holy trinity is necessary in the first place. After years of playing that way, it’s hard to undo all that knowledge.

So, at the risk of sounding like a troll, we all need to “learn to play” when it comes to removing the trinity. Bringing it back only serves to make us all move in the wrong direction.

But then again, this is only the opinion of one player among thousands.

It was hard to find tanks and healers in other MMOs because 85% of the playerbase like to be a dps with zero responsibility. Tanks like to lead and protect the group, if they mess up, the group will most likely die. Some people thrive on that level pressure. Similarly with healers, they like to push a group to preform above what they could individually and if they spread themselves too thin, the group will likely wipe to losing the tank.

No matter the reason why players like different roles, they exist to make a game more complex and fun. Having a game setup for only dps, makes the game way too easy. Simply stacking ‘zerker and hopping out of easily discernible telegraphed attacks, does not equal an epic skill ceiling. I used to have to concentrate so intensely on healing during some really tough boss battles that I would achieve full ’Ferret on crack’ mode, just to keep all the plates spinning! My GF used to love to poke me in the ribs after such a fight, just to watch me pop up like a madman in full fright lol! You ever get anything like that deepsing GW2?

If GW2 suddenly got a trinity, nothing would really change for players that like to dps. The change would be more orderly and complex PvE fights and the game would attract a lot more people. The PvP dynamic would also change for the better IMO. I personally don’t think anything in gaming is more fun than healing in PvP, it’s so funny if you do it right.

Yoh.8469:

poultry healing.

Save the chickens!

But yeah, I know eggzactly what you mean. I like how City of Heroes did it with their tetralogy/quadrilogy/quartet thingee: tanking, dps, defense, and crowd control. Kitten, I miss my tankers.

Overall the ‘untrinity system’ in GW2 reminds me somewhat of a Scooby Doo comic book I had when I was a kid: I left it in the back window of the car and in short order the sun bleached away most of the color. Which was kind of cool. For about five minutes…

You missed this gem.

SchuMidas.4782:

-too not have holy trinity, every shemale is dps.

Pretty much says it all, but says nothing at the same time. Kind of like the comic.

Just here to debunk for the 100th time the common fallacies on the matter.
I’m thinking of saving this on a document at this point, since every month we get “that guy” who thinks has found the holy grail but he’s just missing some fundaments:

1) The “No roles” fallacy.
GW2 has all the common MMO roles, but you get to play them on your class.
You both tank damage, deal DPS and heal yourself.
Just because you are not pidgeon-holed into a single one of these roles but play all three it doesn’t mean there are no roles; it means you play all 3.
Until you understand this fact just don’t post about this matter at all.

2) “Lack of challenge is due to the role system” fallacy.
This is as logic as saying a car race on a completely straight street is not challenging because there is no car variety instead of pointing out the fact there are no hard turns.
The lack of challenge is intended because people cried a ton when GW2 was harder, so Anet had to water down the difficulty.
It is easily possible to make the game require defensive gear and builds, to require Guardians or other team-defending roles.
Infact most people cannot get through Fractal 50 without a dedicated Guardian.
If content lacks challenge, blame the content, blame Anet, blame the community for crying at the slightest shadow of difficulty – but it has nothing to do with having trinity or not.
There are plenty role-less games like Dark Soul that are hard games but they don’t have any pidgeon-holed role system.

3) Healers already exist, albeit not in only in the form of the easy green number spammer.
With a couple exceptions, most classes can already be very powerful protectors if specced for it and will increase team’s survivability by a ton.
The fact people at not willing to roll protectors is only due to the fact there is no content that requires a person to dedicate to team protection.
If such content is made, people will have to either have one person dedicate himself to protecting or use defensive setups, but until then there is no point in speccing for it.

Seriously.
Take any dungeon, double/triple the damage, and you have a dungeon requiring dedicated protection / defensive builds.
The system itself works, it has no flaws, it’s just a combination of Anet catering to the easymode crew and the easymode crew crying loudly when they can’t trivialize content.

This game will simply lose players that are fond to role playing games simply because this game is not a role playing game. Nobody has a role in a group.

They could easily do a trinity lite with their design (OP called it Trinity Soft) they have to tools at their disposal all they’d have to do is tweak a few defensive traits in the trait line and improve healing scaling on all of the healing skills on every class that could heal by 3-4x what it is now add a threat mechanic and voila! a trinity lite is born! It wouldn’t impact PVP either because most pvpers use condition damage from what I’m seeing since toughness makes it harder for bursters to do anything meaningful in PVP.

So it’s really a simple thing for them to fix in this game and the lite part just means they wouldn’t have to require anyone to actually be in a trinity group but when one is in a trinity group it’s easy to see that there are plenty of benefits.

The only thing I’ll say is I don’t see any game that’s copying GW2’s style of “roles”, that kind of speaks for itself. Roles give your character importance. In this game it’s kinda like come and go, do whatever…it doesn’t really make a difference if you are with us in this dungeon or not because you just don’t matter.

It seems you’re trying to find an easy fix when there isn’t one. Granted your conception of the trinity seems more enjoyable than its implimentation in most MMOs but the problem isn’t the lack of trinity but the incredibly predictable AI and lazy design of encounters to try and mask the simplicity of it such as the boss getting an invulnerability shield that you have to strip.

.

The new TA path is a perfect example of how GW2 almost forces teamwork, but not in the trinity requiring sense. Everyone needs to know how the mechanics work and each person can take on the roll of ooze kiting.

What I would like to see is a bit more distinction when someone chooses to run a specific set-up The healing power stat is available; if someone focuses on it, I feel it should make a clear difference. Right now it feels like you take a serious hit to DPS while only a marginal difference in the amount healed compared to if you didn’t spec healing.

They have the mechanics already, why not use them.

Mesket.5728:

This game will simply lose players that are fond to role playing games simply because this game is not a role playing game. Nobody has a role in a group.

Gah! And I repeat….gah!

Do you really REALLY think RPGs are about playing roles in combat like healer, tank, DPS? That’s not what role-playing is.

Actors play roles (ie, they are role-playing) and I’m pretty sure Sean Connery never healed or tanked in his life.

The idea of role playing is just that…taking on a character. That’s why you have single player RPGs that have no tanks, no healers, and no DPS. Skyrim is an RPG and I never tanked in it…I played a role.

I should also mention that roles are more about flavor than mechanics. You play a necromancer because you want something dark and mysterious (not because you want to DPS). You play a warrior because you want to be up front and personal and kick kitten.

Seriously, people have lost all concept of what an RPG is supposed to be.

Mesket.5728:

This game will simply lose players that are fond to role playing games simply because this game is not a role playing game. Nobody has a role in a group.

Clearly you don’t understand what role-playing games are. The role-playing is you as a human being playing the role of a fantasy adventurer. That is the minimum requirement, of which GW2 fulfills in its entirety.

Hmm my thoughts on the matter…

No offence meant but sometimes, most calls for enacting the ‘trinity’ roles is seems to me is because someone doesn’t feel they are important, ie. anyone else playing anything else can replace them. Do we really need to be so irreplaceable tht the group must fail if we die? A soft trinity is still a maybe for me, im still thinking abt it in detail because I always thought we already have it in this game, but any limitaition of roles to a specific class is definitely a big no for me.

Is the game simply a group of individuals doing their own stuff while in a group content? Perhaps some content makes it so, but definitely everyone in party needs to play their part well enough in some of the higher difficulty content. its just that its not always a clear cut healer-tank-dps kind of roles. Quoting zeromius waaaayy up there "I think though that ArenaNet wanted to make dungeon groups less like sports groups and more like a squad of soldiers. While one soldier getting killed could greatly reduce the effectiveness of the squad, the remaining members could still complete their mission. " I prefer this kind of approach. Sure it sucks to be the guy downed while the rest of the squad finishes the fight, but seriously, u want ur team to fail just because you went down?

What I will never like about ‘trinity-esque’ roles is that it makes class/builds a factor in a group run. I much prefer what matters most and preferably, only is the competency of the person/player. I dislike the idea of “LF1m Healer” or “LF1m of specific class”. I rather like the current “need 1 more person to fill spot for dungeon X run” which we currently have (at least for me in my guild and friends) and if anyone ask “what class u want me to bring”, we’d just say" whatever you like to play"

A line from the OP…

“This is done because of math. With the healer/tank/dps system, you know exactly how much healing or dps, tanking etc, somebody is able to do, and calculate this out as a clear mathematical value.”

I’m somehow thinking of Leeroy Jenkins here :P hehehe…