Guild Wars 2

Totally Agree op Guildwars 1 had it right in my opinion, Here we are all varying shades of DPS, yay for DPS, cheers for DPS….

Sadly you feel like a generic number in any team orientated content in this game, At least the trinity makes you feel useful in other games, you have a role to play.

Here you’re just another condition stack in a sea of condition stacks..

The trinity is needed. But Anet will likely add it in the first Expansion. So no worries.

Knighthonor.4061:

The trinity is needed. But Anet will likely add it in the first Expansion. So no worries.

The trinity isn’t needed nor is it desired. Anet will not be adding the trinity. I really hope this was a troll post.

Knighthonor.4061:

The trinity is needed. But Anet will likely add it in the first Expansion. So no worries.

Keep dreaming.

Vayne.8563:

The trinity isn’t needed nor is it desired. Anet will not be adding the trinity.

This.

Stop asking something that will never happen. Read again, never happen.
No need for it, no desire for it beyond a 0.1% of the community, 0% desire of it from Anet.
It will not, ever, happen.
Want the trinity? Change game. It’s the only way. Nobody here wants to see gameplay dumbed down into a trinity.

Knighthonor.4061:

The trinity is needed. But Anet will likely add it in the first Expansion. So no worries.

ha ha ha oh wow

And now back to yet another beaten dead horse thread.

Vayne.8563:

I didn’t read it all.

But I will say this. Removal of the trinity doesn’t mean no team work….it only means no team work for how it’s done here. Arguably there is more team work in dungeons like the new TA path and of course stuff like Tequatl.

Remember, without a trinity, the development process has to evolve. We’ve had years and years and years of people developing for a trinity and not years and years and years of people developing without a trinity.

I personally believe the trinity is dead…it just doesn’t know it yet….but here’s my problem with the trinity.

If Lord of the Rings was written so that the enemy only attacked Boromir while Gandalf healed him, it would have sucked.

It sucks waiting for healers. I sucks waiting for tanks. It sucks when you have to depend on people who may or may not be good.

Oh and pro tip. If you play with the same people over and over instead of pugging, ie join a guild, there’s plenty of teamwork to be had.

This to the nth degree. There’s a good reason why I despise the Unholy Trinity, and this is it. Plus do you know how rare healers and tanks are normally? I’m playing FFXIV currently and I can’t stand how I have to wait 2 hours just to get a healer…A kittenING HEALER! To hell with that noise, the Unholy Trinity isn’t needed here.

I don’t miss it and I certainly don’t want it added into the game.

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

This game will simply lose players that are fond to role playing games simply because this game is not a role playing game. Nobody has a role in a group.

Clearly you don’t understand what role-playing games are. The role-playing is you as a human being playing the role of a fantasy adventurer. That is the minimum requirement, of which GW2 fulfills in its entirety.

I’ve had my share of board role playing games as a kid and later on MMOs since ’97. I kind of get what playing roles means.

I disagree, I don’t think GW2 covers the least expected from a role playing game. Not a computer based role playing game. If this was a book game, then we could all RP; but since the nature of computer games is quite different, roles has to be pushed through your role on a group. What is your role? what is your place? what do you do that the other do not? what do you lack of?

This game has the exactly same mechanic as if we were all playing Darksiders online and we all play the same character. The only difference is you cast it purple, I cast it red.

Hey, I think the holy trinity is outdated too.

But let’s not pretend it would make GW2 worse or dumb it down. GW2 has the worse “trinity” in every single mmorpg ever created: Single Trinity. Dps/ Dps/ Dps. It can’t get worse than that, folks!

If Lord of the Rings was written so that only the highest dps characters could speed run to Mordor, then the hobbits and Gandalf would be an hidrance.

It sucks when only DPS builds are worth anything. It sucks when you have to use a DPS role for a party to accept you in one-hit-kill-defensive-stats-are-pointless-dodging-is-all-you-need endgame content.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hey, I think the holy trinity is outdated too.

But let’s not pretend it would make GW2 worse or dumb it down. GW2 has the worse “trinity” in every single mmorpg ever created: Single Trinity. Dps/ Dps/ Dps. It can’t get worse than that, folks!

If Lord of the Rings was written so that only the highest dps characters could speed run to Mordor, then the hobbits and Gandalf would be an hidrance.

It sucks when only DPS builds are worth anything. It sucks when you have to use a DPS role for a party to accept you in one-hit-kill-defensive-stats-are-pointless-dodging-is-all-you-need endgame content.

Sigh. Red Falcon didn’t copy paste it enough. I’ll do it for him. And this in response to your : Single Trinity. Dps/ Dps/ Dps.
Your mentality… is outdated, and need a small upgrade.

Red Falcon.8257:

1) The “No roles” fallacy.
GW2 has all the common MMO roles, but you get to play them on your class.
You both tank damage, deal DPS and heal yourself.
Just because you are not pidgeon-holed into a single one of these roles but play all three it doesn’t mean there are no roles; it means you play all 3.
Until you understand this fact just don’t post about this matter at all.

.

trinity sucks, especially in ff14.

tired of 1 hour queue times when you’re a DPS using the duty finder.

tl;dr

No holy trinity is something I like, the current ‘trinity’ is something that needs a lot of polishing however, because currently the emphasis is on damage only and support and crowd control (was always mentioned as the third in the trinity) are nonexistent and pretty much useless. A shame.

The combat in this game is what keeps me in, the traditional combat in other MMO’s are what bore me. If I ever get back into a game that has the old trinity it would have to be DCUO as that combat still is quite dynamic, a lot more than RIFT/SWTOR/WoW and games alike. THAT is dull.

Excalibur.9748:

trinity sucks, especially in ff14.

tired of 1 hour queue times when you’re a DPS using the duty finder.

That’s the problem (and lol look at my sign). After 15 years of MMO I can tell that almost everyone always wants to be full DPS in every game but its because game designers lacks the skill to make other roles (not tanks and healers necessarily) appealing.

Just to think about it… Warhammer Online (even though it had LOTS of bugs and bad things to mention) never had that problem even though it had a party set up of TWO tanks, TWO healers, and two dps…. You never had to wait in that game for a healer or a tank… simply because tanks and healers in that game were amazing classes to role with and people enjoyed playing them.

Mesket.5728:

Excalibur.9748:

trinity sucks, especially in ff14.

tired of 1 hour queue times when you’re a DPS using the duty finder.

That’s the problem (and lol look at my sign). After 15 years of MMO I can tell that almost everyone always wants to be full DPS in every game but its because game designers lacks the skill to make other roles (not tanks and healers necessarily) appealing.

Just to think about it… Warhammer Online (even though it had LOTS of bugs and bad things to mention) never had that problem even though it had a party set up of TWO tanks, TWO healers, and two dps…. You never had to wait in that game for a healer or a tank… simply because tanks and healers in that game were amazing classes to role with and people enjoyed playing them.

What if I told you I actually enjoyed playing a Prot Pally in WoW?

Direksone.3867:

Mesket.5728:

Excalibur.9748:

trinity sucks, especially in ff14.

tired of 1 hour queue times when you’re a DPS using the duty finder.

That’s the problem (and lol look at my sign). After 15 years of MMO I can tell that almost everyone always wants to be full DPS in every game but its because game designers lacks the skill to make other roles (not tanks and healers necessarily) appealing.

Just to think about it… Warhammer Online (even though it had LOTS of bugs and bad things to mention) never had that problem even though it had a party set up of TWO tanks, TWO healers, and two dps…. You never had to wait in that game for a healer or a tank… simply because tanks and healers in that game were amazing classes to role with and people enjoyed playing them.

What if I told you I actually enjoyed playing a Prot Pally in WoW?

Of course you did, thats why I said almost everyone as I did with my healing shaman and tank warrior

Are you going to tell me now that tanks and healers are popular classes in wow? because… the whole 2 spec thing was implemented just to deal with that issue.

Even though I would enjoy the Holy Trinity in Guild Wars 2 A LOT, I believe Anet would screw it up to the point where the game would be unplayable. If they can’t balance an all-dps combat system, then what makes you think they would be able to throw in a tank and a healer and be able to balance those too?

I tried to build my character as a tank in GW2, and I got kicked out of dungeons, yelled at, I was told to change to all zerker gear, and insulted repeatedly for the way I chose to build. This is why I would like the trinity to be implemented so I can tank those people like my Paladin in WoW and literally beat the crap out of them.

Mesket.5728:

Direksone.3867:

Mesket.5728:

Excalibur.9748:

trinity sucks, especially in ff14.

tired of 1 hour queue times when you’re a DPS using the duty finder.

That’s the problem (and lol look at my sign). After 15 years of MMO I can tell that almost everyone always wants to be full DPS in every game but its because game designers lacks the skill to make other roles (not tanks and healers necessarily) appealing.

Just to think about it… Warhammer Online (even though it had LOTS of bugs and bad things to mention) never had that problem even though it had a party set up of TWO tanks, TWO healers, and two dps…. You never had to wait in that game for a healer or a tank… simply because tanks and healers in that game were amazing classes to role with and people enjoyed playing them.

What if I told you I actually enjoyed playing a Prot Pally in WoW?

Of course you did, thats why I said almost everyone as I did with my healing shaman and tank warrior

Are you going to tell me now that tanks and healers are popular classes in wow? because… the whole 2 spec thing was implemented just to deal with that issue.

True! But all classes in there can roll DPS and only some heal/tank so obviously it will be less people.

Direksone.3867:

Mesket.5728:

Direksone.3867:

Mesket.5728:

Excalibur.9748:

trinity sucks, especially in ff14.

tired of 1 hour queue times when you’re a DPS using the duty finder.

That’s the problem (and lol look at my sign). After 15 years of MMO I can tell that almost everyone always wants to be full DPS in every game but its because game designers lacks the skill to make other roles (not tanks and healers necessarily) appealing.

Just to think about it… Warhammer Online (even though it had LOTS of bugs and bad things to mention) never had that problem even though it had a party set up of TWO tanks, TWO healers, and two dps…. You never had to wait in that game for a healer or a tank… simply because tanks and healers in that game were amazing classes to role with and people enjoyed playing them.

What if I told you I actually enjoyed playing a Prot Pally in WoW?

Of course you did, thats why I said almost everyone as I did with my healing shaman and tank warrior

Are you going to tell me now that tanks and healers are popular classes in wow? because… the whole 2 spec thing was implemented just to deal with that issue.

True! But all classes in there can roll DPS and only some heal/tank so obviously it will be less people.

Because the party ratio was 1,1,3. Something else that can be add is that even those tanks or healers would many times choose to roll dps trees playing “hybrid” builds, what increases even more the population of DPS.

Roles are always hard to balance and make fun but it is the meta of a role playing game. Removing roles completely might sound nice for most dps players but its a killing decision to players that actually love to play mmoRpgs.

(disclaimer, i dont want tanks and healer in GW2, I repeat… I do not want tanks or healers in GW2… but I do want to have some kind of roles in the group and more class/build variety)

Mesket.5728:

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

This game will simply lose players that are fond to role playing games simply because this game is not a role playing game. Nobody has a role in a group.

Clearly you don’t understand what role-playing games are. The role-playing is you as a human being playing the role of a fantasy adventurer. That is the minimum requirement, of which GW2 fulfills in its entirety.

I’ve had my share of board role playing games as a kid and later on MMOs since ’97. I kind of get what playing roles means.

I disagree, I don’t think GW2 covers the least expected from a role playing game. Not a computer based role playing game. If this was a book game, then we could all RP; but since the nature of computer games is quite different, roles has to be pushed through your role on a group. What is your role? what is your place? what do you do that the other do not? what do you lack of?

This game has the exactly same mechanic as if we were all playing Darksiders online and we all play the same character. The only difference is you cast it purple, I cast it red.

My role is a Sylvari guardian, born from the whatever tree, here to help stop the Risen/Zhaitan and/or any other threat to Tyria. That’s it. That’s all it needs to be.

What was my role in Aion? I’m a daeva like everyone else and I fight the badguys/opposite faction. What was my role in WoW? I’m an Undead priest, who needs to fight the bad guys/opposite faction like all of the other people and I go on quests to help random NPCs or do a dungeon instance that has very little back-story. At least GW2 tries to explain dungeons via Story Mode. Why was I running Shadowfang Keep again? To kill the nameless bad guy? What was my role in Asheron’s Call, or UO? I was a guy that wandered around killing monsters or other players and leveling up. That’s it.

GW2 is no different from any other MMORPG as far as RPing goes. You make it what you want like any other game.

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

This game will simply lose players that are fond to role playing games simply because this game is not a role playing game. Nobody has a role in a group.

Clearly you don’t understand what role-playing games are. The role-playing is you as a human being playing the role of a fantasy adventurer. That is the minimum requirement, of which GW2 fulfills in its entirety.

I’ve had my share of board role playing games as a kid and later on MMOs since ’97. I kind of get what playing roles means.

I disagree, I don’t think GW2 covers the least expected from a role playing game. Not a computer based role playing game. If this was a book game, then we could all RP; but since the nature of computer games is quite different, roles has to be pushed through your role on a group. What is your role? what is your place? what do you do that the other do not? what do you lack of?

This game has the exactly same mechanic as if we were all playing Darksiders online and we all play the same character. The only difference is you cast it purple, I cast it red.

My role is a Sylvari guardian, born from the whatever tree, here to help stop the Risen/Zhaitan and/or any other threat to Tyria. That’s it. That’s all it needs to be.

What was my role in Aion? I’m a daeva like everyone else and I fight the badguys/opposite faction. What was my role in WoW? I’m an Undead priest, who needs to fight the bad guys/opposite faction like all of the other people and I go on quests to help random NPCs or do a dungeon instance that has very little back-story. At least GW2 tries to explain dungeons via Story Mode. Why was I running Shadowfang Keep again? To kill the nameless bad guy? What was my role in Asheron’s Call, or UO? I was a guy that wandered around killing monsters or other players and leveling up. That’s it.

GW2 is no different from any other MMORPG as far as RPing goes. You make it what you want like any other game.

We will never get an agreement here… you are talking about your role as in a board role playing game. I’m talking about your mechanic role in a party as a computer role playing game. You are trying to use the back story which is shallow and already written for you unlike really role playing games as an argument to justify that is fine if we have no mechanic roles in the party and we all play the same character. With that concept (and I agree here, this is kinda true) you can role play Mario Bross if you like but we all know that is not a role playing game (though you can turn it into one in your head). Computer role games relies on mechanic roles to support the character class and background as in the old school pioneers like Gauntlet (1985).

Actually, you have tools to CC – it’s up to you to build it. Here, classes can provide damage, but have clear and distinct roles.

Take for example, a warrior and a guard – both can spec for full damage, but a warrior provides the offensive support role and the steady damage role, either by using shouts such as On My Mark and For Great Justice, or banners such as Banner of Discipline, Strength, Defense, and Tactics. A guard does the steady damage role as well, but provides more defensive utility, such as condition removal either by shout or virtue, area buffing by way of consecrations, projectile denial by way of SoA and WoR, or even clutch healing using Light of Deliverance from Tome of Courage.

Classes can do roles, it’s just that roles are decentralized from the gear, and is based on traits, with gear just improving how your character plays out. Unlike other games where the content is heavily dependent on gear, here the content is most likely dependent upon above, weapon setup, and utilities.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

working together:
1. peter lays down a water field
2. jane, mary, sharon, susan blasts the water field
3. area healing, area healing every where

who says people are not working together?

also:
light field > blast = area retaliation
fire field > blast = area might
pink field > blast = area chaos armor
etc

source:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

How do you tell that 1 put down a water field and not a light field? You either have to be playing with the same group for ages, or be on voice com so 1 can announce that there is a water field coming. This because trying to tell what field is in play before they fade is in essence impossible.

Advent Leader.1083:

Actually, you have tools to CC – it’s up to you to build it. Here, classes can provide damage, but have clear and distinct roles.

Take for example, a warrior and a guard – both can spec for full damage, but a warrior provides the offensive support role and the steady damage role, either by using shouts such as On My Mark and For Great Justice, or banners such as Banner of Discipline, Strength, Defense, and Tactics. A guard does the steady damage role as well, but provides more defensive utility, such as condition removal either by shout or virtue, area buffing by way of consecrations, projectile denial by way of SoA and WoR, or even clutch healing using Light of Deliverance from Tome of Courage.

Classes can do roles, it’s just that roles are decentralized from the gear, and is based on traits, with gear just improving how your character plays out. Unlike other games where the content is heavily dependent on gear, here the content is most likely dependent upon above, weapon setup, and utilities.

Not dependent on gear?! 2/3 of the stats come from gear!

digiowl.9620:

Advent Leader.1083:

Actually, you have tools to CC – it’s up to you to build it. Here, classes can provide damage, but have clear and distinct roles.

Take for example, a warrior and a guard – both can spec for full damage, but a warrior provides the offensive support role and the steady damage role, either by using shouts such as On My Mark and For Great Justice, or banners such as Banner of Discipline, Strength, Defense, and Tactics. A guard does the steady damage role as well, but provides more defensive utility, such as condition removal either by shout or virtue, area buffing by way of consecrations, projectile denial by way of SoA and WoR, or even clutch healing using Light of Deliverance from Tome of Courage.

Classes can do roles, it’s just that roles are decentralized from the gear, and is based on traits, with gear just improving how your character plays out. Unlike other games where the content is heavily dependent on gear, here the content is most likely dependent upon above, weapon setup, and utilities.

Not dependent on gear?! 2/3 of the stats come from gear!

But gear doesn’t support your role other than boost your dps. Being support in dps gear while other support stats are there crying in the corner with the lights off… design working as intended!

Spitjaw.2987:

I must say OP has really good points there.

It beats me how can people not realise simple fact that holly trinity would made boss fights ( mechanics), so much more versatile and interesting then without heal,tank,dps system.

PVE in GW2 lacking sooo much (i am speaking for myself here) and is just outright boring.

ON the other hand,i like how current system works in PVP and combat system is very interesting and fun (tho there is WAST space for improvements),so i am kinda split with my opinnion bout holly trinity.

For me..it sucks in PVE and i hate PVE in this game,but it works pretty good in PVP.

Oh yes…for people who thinks that they would have problem to find groups,did you read LFG pannel latelly?:P

Its like..you open it and in description you see (all in caps ofc) “ONLY WARRIORS AND MESMERS”…." ONLY 5K ACHI POINTS PEOPLE" (this is easily my favourite ever:P) and kitten like that.

Its there guys..you dont need holly trinity for this kind of behaviour .

Cheers

Honestly, more and more it seems like GW2 was originally meant to be a MOBA. But at some point ANet was prodded into making it follow up to GW, and so turned it into a MMORPG.

What needs work tho is mob design. They are cheesy health bags with either spiky damage, spammy CC, or both. This sadly nullifies a lot of the toy boxes of various professions. For instance, there is very little use for profession skills that manipulates boons. This because very few mobs rely on boons.

Mesket.5728:

digiowl.9620:

Advent Leader.1083:

Actually, you have tools to CC – it’s up to you to build it. Here, classes can provide damage, but have clear and distinct roles.

Take for example, a warrior and a guard – both can spec for full damage, but a warrior provides the offensive support role and the steady damage role, either by using shouts such as On My Mark and For Great Justice, or banners such as Banner of Discipline, Strength, Defense, and Tactics. A guard does the steady damage role as well, but provides more defensive utility, such as condition removal either by shout or virtue, area buffing by way of consecrations, projectile denial by way of SoA and WoR, or even clutch healing using Light of Deliverance from Tome of Courage.

Classes can do roles, it’s just that roles are decentralized from the gear, and is based on traits, with gear just improving how your character plays out. Unlike other games where the content is heavily dependent on gear, here the content is most likely dependent upon above, weapon setup, and utilities.

Not dependent on gear?! 2/3 of the stats come from gear!

But gear doesn’t support your role other than boost your dps. Being support in dps gear while other support stats are there crying in the corner with the lights off… design working as intended!

If so, it is a messed up design. If you can do as good support in DPS gear as in non-DPS gear, why have non-DPS gear in the game in the first place? It gives the players a illusion of choice when there is none, and cheapens the game.

I haven’t played an MMO with a trinity before, but tanking doesn’t make sense to me.

Why would creatures focus on the tank instead of the glass DPS or the glass healer. We all know in games it’s better to knock down the number of attackers rather than the toughest guy.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/09/21

digiowl.9620:

Mesket.5728:

digiowl.9620:

Advent Leader.1083:

Actually, you have tools to CC – it’s up to you to build it. Here, classes can provide damage, but have clear and distinct roles.

Take for example, a warrior and a guard – both can spec for full damage, but a warrior provides the offensive support role and the steady damage role, either by using shouts such as On My Mark and For Great Justice, or banners such as Banner of Discipline, Strength, Defense, and Tactics. A guard does the steady damage role as well, but provides more defensive utility, such as condition removal either by shout or virtue, area buffing by way of consecrations, projectile denial by way of SoA and WoR, or even clutch healing using Light of Deliverance from Tome of Courage.

Classes can do roles, it’s just that roles are decentralized from the gear, and is based on traits, with gear just improving how your character plays out. Unlike other games where the content is heavily dependent on gear, here the content is most likely dependent upon above, weapon setup, and utilities.

Not dependent on gear?! 2/3 of the stats come from gear!

But gear doesn’t support your role other than boost your dps. Being support in dps gear while other support stats are there crying in the corner with the lights off… design working as intended!

If so, it is a messed up design. If you can do as good support in DPS gear as in non-DPS gear, why have non-DPS gear in the game in the first place? It gives the players a illusion of choice when there is none, and cheapens the game.

This is the whole point of the discussion.

This and people who are against and in favor of giving more importance to other roles. In my opinion it should be done through content improvement (since there is room and potential for a LOT of improvement), other people blame zerk gear being too powerful compared with the rest and ask for a nerf on it (which I believe will just move “zerkers” to the next best dps set and won’t fix the issue).

That pretty much sums it all.

TooBz.3065:

I haven’t played an MMO with a trinity before, but tanking doesn’t make sense to me.

Why would creatures focus on the tank instead of the glass DPS or the glass healer. We all know in games it’s better to knock down the number of attackers rather than the toughest guy.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/09/21

It’s a little known secret that the Tank calls the bosses mum very nasty things.

What they do is run up, hit them in the face and yell ‘Oi, Zhaitan, yer mums a beep!’, which causes tunnel vision in the boss.

TheDaiBish.9735:

TooBz.3065:

I haven’t played an MMO with a trinity before, but tanking doesn’t make sense to me.

Why would creatures focus on the tank instead of the glass DPS or the glass healer. We all know in games it’s better to knock down the number of attackers rather than the toughest guy.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/09/21

It’s a little known secret that the Tank calls the bosses mum very nasty things.

What they do is run up, hit them in the face and yell ‘Oi, Zhaitan, yer mums a beep!’, which causes tunnel vision in the boss.

Ah, reality at it’s finest. Thanks.

Yoh.8469:

While you could do damage, between the limited skill slots and attribute points, you were forced to pick either great healing, or so-so damage. So in other words if you wanted to be a monk, you could only ever heal, and nothing else.

I humbly encourage you to improve yourself.

The very best thing about GW2 is it got rid of traditional roles. It gave everyone an equal footing.

Bad group cohesion is from bad leadership.

No one wants to play 5 man groups any more. We want dynamic play. Get rid of the instances.

There is a raid in that other MMO that is immune to taunts, it focus the attacks on either the first one to hit it or the one doing most damage, and has a cone attack that would one-shot anyone except the hardest tanks. That simple detail derailed the whole standard raid schema: it really makes no sense to keep the tank alive, as it WILL lose aggro at some point, and die in the process. It requires a coordination of two or more “tanks” and everybody holding fire as soon as needed, while healers focus on the rest of the people instead of the tank. It originally required 80 people, and they nerfed it to require only 40 (somehow taco reminded me of that raid)

That would be business as usual in GW2. That’s the beauty of not having a trinity.

Well for sure during release no trinity was amazing fresh air for people… That very quickly grew old. As did being forced to switch weapons etc when it was specifically said you would be able to use your preferred style. Def did not turn out to be the case.

But that could have all been avoided by using a similar skill system to gw1 (which would have made gw2 amazing.) No point in arguing against that because it would have turned out just the same as now. (Being standard to go in with preferred skills)
The only diff is there would have been more of those for a lil more flexibility and flare. And gaining skills in gw1 was pure genius.

No desire for it? Its one of the top complaints… Esp with people that left. Prob only second to being able to move skills around. (As far as general requests.)

OP is completely right.
Someone in here is saying plz no because it will mean only certain class are welcome to party..? Umm, thats been happening since GW2 release.

This game took nothing of Gw1 that was successful.

The 1% is the (and im only going off someone else’s exaggeration from earlier in posts) is the people who already have well establish groups or are natural skills.

This game is really ruff esp for people starting out in that area.

Don’t get me wrong I understand everyones PoV on this and respect it. WE have to play it the way it is anyway. (No they wont add trinity; thats wishful thinking; they hardly budge on anything that even more obviously needed as is.)

I completely understand the appeal of people sick of trinity or who have never played with one before.

I only commented because people try to act like this is some request only a small fraction wants; its not… The truth of it is the elites (I don’t mean in negative way; I just mean the best players or those involved in end game vet aspects.) always think they are some majority when they are not even close.

Myst Dawnbringer.9138:

The very best thing about GW2 is it got rid of traditional roles. It gave everyone an equal footing.

Bad group cohesion is from bad leadership.

No one wants to play 5 man groups any more. We want dynamic play. Get rid of the instances.

Again another person acting like they are the majority. Completely not true.
You guys always jump to avoid the larger base of players that are not as Uber as you. Good leadership doesn’t solve the curve for them. Esp with most of them not playing all day long or just being avg.
Since the beginning the majority find it to hard, high curve, to chaotic. The better players; to easy. But the better players are far from the majority.

Have fun with your endless dynamic events.. That “everyone is and has been tired off…”

The game needs to be dynamic but it also needs far more structure…

It’s already proven that some sort holy trinity (roles) is the way to go in MMO land. I like the idea of a soft trinity. Too bad this won’t happen in gw2. This is simply because this game is far from being an MMO. It’s something unique, different, it’s something else, but not an MMO.

Poplolita.2638:

Sigh. Red Falcon didn’t copy paste it enough. I’ll do it for him. And this in response to your : Single Trinity. Dps/ Dps/ Dps.
Your mentality… is outdated, and need a small upgrade.

1) The “No roles” fallacy.
GW2 has all the common MMO roles, but you get to play them on your class.
You both tank damage, deal DPS and heal yourself.
Just because you are not pidgeon-holed into a single one of these roles but play all three it doesn’t mean there are no roles; it means you play all 3.
Until you understand this fact just don’t post about this matter at all.

.

That post can be copy pasted as many times as people want, but it won’t do much, because it’s a deeply flawed argument.

The purpose of roles is to deepen teamplay strategy by giving each player a specialized role and one or more weaknesses than need to be covered by other specialized roles. It not only deepends gameplay depth, but it also makes it easier (in theory) to form an organized party with pugs. The purpose of roles is not to transform everyone into solo machines, but to force teamplay through specialized strengths and specialized weaknesses.

Also, even within GW2’s own solo philosophy, it’s broken. The condition damage is broken by the cap. Control builds are broken because of bosses’ mechanics, and because they are barely affected by stats. Support builds are broken because there’s no ally targetting, so it either revolves around generalized aoe, or ground aoe that forces all players to stick within the same place spamming attacks, punishing ranged chars in favor of melee attacks. Finally, ranged attacks are broken because of the mentioned issue, and because they’re balanced to be weaker than melee attacks in exchange of being ranged… a meaningless advantage outside of pvp because enemies can’t kite.

GW2 has a fun combat system, that is very streamlined and fluid, but its balance is a disaster. GW2’s pve metagame is driven by a pile of broken mechanics.

In the end, GW2 doesn’t have the advantages of the holy trinity, but it doesn’t haves the advantages of a more free-form system neither. It’s the worst of both worlds: it forces players to demand specific builds to enter a party (except there’s one instead of three), and it punishes players for picking most gear choices in the game and experimenting with most builds choices.

But what’s truly sad in all of this, is that GW1’s wonderful build-crafting systems were all scrapped in the sequel for the sake of better “balancing”.

First of all zerging will always be optimal in WvW – overwhelming numbers work because of other reasons completely unrelated to roles ( nature of aoe damage, nature of buffs, lack of player colision, size of the maps)
Second of all monks in GW1 did amazing damage as smiters – since a lot of their damage could be pure- thus rendering mob armor useless.

Apart from that Yoh i’m sorry to say that you are failing to see a few key issues here.

The main issue is this – GW2 is built around the idea of no trinity. Not a kittene, not a soft one – none.
There are no roles – people like it that way. It was advertised that way and people play it because of it.
I’ve seen a lot of people saying " i like this game because it isn’t pressuring me into a role- i can do what i feel like". That’s what GW2 brings – a breath of fresh air to a relatively choked traditional MMO medium.

Think about it?
Effective self heals, the independence of every char and profession, being able to do well without others and the dodge system all mean that you’re more self reliant than in any other MMO.
That is a plus. People who want that flock to this game.
If they wanted to play a hard or soft role they would be playing something else.
Very few people came to GW2 for the lore – or for the F2P model – most came because of the promised radical new approach.
GW2 is in a sense the solo player’s game – the players who like to run things on their own and just do that with other people doing it by their side.
I am that kind of player – i DO NOT WANT my success to be reliant on other people. That’s why i like this game – at a final boss the other 4 guys can wipe but as long as I’m staying alive I’ve got all i need to still win it. No other game gives me that.
Don’t change this game – if a minority don’t like it then maybe they should change game.

To take that away and turn back on it would be folly – and the player base would certainly have something to say.

Primernova.5791:

Ashabhi.1365:

The OP wrote a well thought out, coherent missive that explains his point of view very well.

My take on it:

I am an MMO vet as well. Everything I have ever played (save for GW2) has a trinity. I don’t play any of them any more.

Why?

Because I hate having characters sit in storage doing nothing because the only thing people want to bring to a fight is (insert role here.) So many years looking at LFG queues that say “Healer wanted for X” or “Tank needed for Boss Fight Y” while the lesser played non-trinity role characters sit gathering dust.

God forbid that my favorite class to play isn’t a trinity class. If I want in a group in these other games, I absolutely HAVE to roll a class that’s wanted or needed in a group, or I sit around in town begging for a group that wants to “support” me.

This reason, above every other is the reason that I believe the trinity is a dead concept.

GW1 had a trinity of sorts, but there were multiple professions that could spec to do the heal thing, or the tank thing, or the DPS thing. It wasn’t quite trinity-free, but they made an attempt at it. Aion did as well, making a class or two that didn’t quite fit the “trinity mold.” GW2 is the only game that has done away with the traditional holy trinity altogether.

It’s not a matter of who does what role and more. It’s a matter of being so ingrained into our minds that the holy trinity is necessary in the first place. After years of playing that way, it’s hard to undo all that knowledge.

So, at the risk of sounding like a troll, we all need to “learn to play” when it comes to removing the trinity. Bringing it back only serves to make us all move in the wrong direction.

But then again, this is only the opinion of one player among thousands.

It was hard to find tanks and healers in other MMOs because 85% of the playerbase like to be a dps with zero responsibility. Tanks like to lead and protect the group, if they mess up, the group will most likely die. Some people thrive on that level pressure. Similarly with healers, they like to push a group to preform above what they could individually and if they spread themselves too thin, the group will likely wipe to losing the tank.

No matter the reason why players like different roles, they exist to make a game more complex and fun. Having a game setup for only dps, makes the game way too easy. Simply stacking ‘zerker and hopping out of easily discernible telegraphed attacks, does not equal an epic skill ceiling. I used to have to concentrate so intensely on healing during some really tough boss battles that I would achieve full ’Ferret on crack’ mode, just to keep all the plates spinning! My GF used to love to poke me in the ribs after such a fight, just to watch me pop up like a madman in full fright lol! You ever get anything like that deepsing GW2?

If GW2 suddenly got a trinity, nothing would really change for players that like to dps. The change would be more orderly and complex PvE fights and the game would attract a lot more people. The PvP dynamic would also change for the better IMO. I personally don’t think anything in gaming is more fun than healing in PvP, it’s so funny if you do it right.

You’re assuming people want that feeling of being a small mammal on crack. Also this feeling is there in GW2 – try soloing a boss once your party is down and it’s just you and it. Try beating Liadri, or the new Tet.

Harper.4173:

Primernova.5791:

Ashabhi.1365:

The OP wrote a well thought out, coherent missive that explains his point of view very well.

My take on it:

I am an MMO vet as well. Everything I have ever played (save for GW2) has a trinity. I don’t play any of them any more.

Why?

Because I hate having characters sit in storage doing nothing because the only thing people want to bring to a fight is (insert role here.) So many years looking at LFG queues that say “Healer wanted for X” or “Tank needed for Boss Fight Y” while the lesser played non-trinity role characters sit gathering dust.

God forbid that my favorite class to play isn’t a trinity class. If I want in a group in these other games, I absolutely HAVE to roll a class that’s wanted or needed in a group, or I sit around in town begging for a group that wants to “support” me.

This reason, above every other is the reason that I believe the trinity is a dead concept.

GW1 had a trinity of sorts, but there were multiple professions that could spec to do the heal thing, or the tank thing, or the DPS thing. It wasn’t quite trinity-free, but they made an attempt at it. Aion did as well, making a class or two that didn’t quite fit the “trinity mold.” GW2 is the only game that has done away with the traditional holy trinity altogether.

It’s not a matter of who does what role and more. It’s a matter of being so ingrained into our minds that the holy trinity is necessary in the first place. After years of playing that way, it’s hard to undo all that knowledge.

So, at the risk of sounding like a troll, we all need to “learn to play” when it comes to removing the trinity. Bringing it back only serves to make us all move in the wrong direction.

But then again, this is only the opinion of one player among thousands.

It was hard to find tanks and healers in other MMOs because 85% of the playerbase like to be a dps with zero responsibility. Tanks like to lead and protect the group, if they mess up, the group will most likely die. Some people thrive on that level pressure. Similarly with healers, they like to push a group to preform above what they could individually and if they spread themselves too thin, the group will likely wipe to losing the tank.

No matter the reason why players like different roles, they exist to make a game more complex and fun. Having a game setup for only dps, makes the game way too easy. Simply stacking ‘zerker and hopping out of easily discernible telegraphed attacks, does not equal an epic skill ceiling. I used to have to concentrate so intensely on healing during some really tough boss battles that I would achieve full ’Ferret on crack’ mode, just to keep all the plates spinning! My GF used to love to poke me in the ribs after such a fight, just to watch me pop up like a madman in full fright lol! You ever get anything like that deepsing GW2?

If GW2 suddenly got a trinity, nothing would really change for players that like to dps. The change would be more orderly and complex PvE fights and the game would attract a lot more people. The PvP dynamic would also change for the better IMO. I personally don’t think anything in gaming is more fun than healing in PvP, it’s so funny if you do it right.

You’re assuming people want that feeling of being a small mammal on crack. Also this feeling is there in GW2 – try soloing a boss once your party is down and it’s just you and it. Try beating Liadri, or the new Tet.

There is a difference between losing one player aka tank or healer, and losing… 4/5 of the team.

chemiclord.3978:

I don’t miss the trinity at all. It can stay gone.

Simple, to the point and I agree.

Now, what I do not understand, is why someone who loves the Holy Trinity is playing GW2? There are so many other games out there that cater to those that want it.

Poplolita.2638:

Harper.4173:

Primernova.5791:

Ashabhi.1365:

The OP wrote a well thought out, coherent missive that explains his point of view very well.

My take on it:

I am an MMO vet as well. Everything I have ever played (save for GW2) has a trinity. I don’t play any of them any more.

Why?

Because I hate having characters sit in storage doing nothing because the only thing people want to bring to a fight is (insert role here.) So many years looking at LFG queues that say “Healer wanted for X” or “Tank needed for Boss Fight Y” while the lesser played non-trinity role characters sit gathering dust.

God forbid that my favorite class to play isn’t a trinity class. If I want in a group in these other games, I absolutely HAVE to roll a class that’s wanted or needed in a group, or I sit around in town begging for a group that wants to “support” me.

This reason, above every other is the reason that I believe the trinity is a dead concept.

GW1 had a trinity of sorts, but there were multiple professions that could spec to do the heal thing, or the tank thing, or the DPS thing. It wasn’t quite trinity-free, but they made an attempt at it. Aion did as well, making a class or two that didn’t quite fit the “trinity mold.” GW2 is the only game that has done away with the traditional holy trinity altogether.

It’s not a matter of who does what role and more. It’s a matter of being so ingrained into our minds that the holy trinity is necessary in the first place. After years of playing that way, it’s hard to undo all that knowledge.

So, at the risk of sounding like a troll, we all need to “learn to play” when it comes to removing the trinity. Bringing it back only serves to make us all move in the wrong direction.

But then again, this is only the opinion of one player among thousands.

It was hard to find tanks and healers in other MMOs because 85% of the playerbase like to be a dps with zero responsibility. Tanks like to lead and protect the group, if they mess up, the group will most likely die. Some people thrive on that level pressure. Similarly with healers, they like to push a group to preform above what they could individually and if they spread themselves too thin, the group will likely wipe to losing the tank.

No matter the reason why players like different roles, they exist to make a game more complex and fun. Having a game setup for only dps, makes the game way too easy. Simply stacking ‘zerker and hopping out of easily discernible telegraphed attacks, does not equal an epic skill ceiling. I used to have to concentrate so intensely on healing during some really tough boss battles that I would achieve full ’Ferret on crack’ mode, just to keep all the plates spinning! My GF used to love to poke me in the ribs after such a fight, just to watch me pop up like a madman in full fright lol! You ever get anything like that deepsing GW2?

If GW2 suddenly got a trinity, nothing would really change for players that like to dps. The change would be more orderly and complex PvE fights and the game would attract a lot more people. The PvP dynamic would also change for the better IMO. I personally don’t think anything in gaming is more fun than healing in PvP, it’s so funny if you do it right.

You’re assuming people want that feeling of being a small mammal on crack. Also this feeling is there in GW2 – try soloing a boss once your party is down and it’s just you and it. Try beating Liadri, or the new Tet.

There is a difference between losing one player aka tank or healer, and losing… 4/5 of the team.

Missing the point. More and more GW2 caters to reflex play. Something that is hilarious as ANet supposedly avoided GW1 style interrupts because they were too latency sensitive.

With no aggro management and no proper tankish stats, staying alive means staying out of reach. And that again means constantly moving around.

Thing is that anything below 900 range may well be melee, as mobs can close that gap in a second.

I am all for movement as a option, but right now the game design makes it mandatory.

I think most is already said in this thread but i would like to add my 2 cents.

I disagree with OP that the holy trinity is the only or best way to go. What i want for this game is to improof the 8 roles they have ( guardian, warrior, ranger etc. ). For Instance if you need to knock down a certain mob the only difference between the roles now is the animation. All great and so but after awhile you have seen it.

In other words i want to be able to hop on 1 of my characters and have more variaty then we would get from the trinity. I want to see that when people see me with my ranger they think: hey there’s a ranger ( or engineer or elementalist etc. ) he wil do this and that, so if i do such and so we wil be stronger togheter. This is in parts already in this game but either we need to teach each other more about the other classes and how to work togheter ( horrific thought for some, having to explain others how to get more of what they do togheter ). Or we are in need for better tell signs so we can make these combo’s happen ( without the screen exploding in big group fights ).

I really don’t want to be forced back into the old days where i had to change to my healer or tank because we otherwhise couldn’t do our dungeon run as a guild.

digiowl.9620:

Poplolita.2638:

Harper.4173:

Primernova.5791:

Ashabhi.1365:

The OP wrote a well thought out, coherent missive that explains his point of view very well.

My take on it:

I am an MMO vet as well. Everything I have ever played (save for GW2) has a trinity. I don’t play any of them any more.

Why?

Because I hate having characters sit in storage doing nothing because the only thing people want to bring to a fight is (insert role here.) So many years looking at LFG queues that say “Healer wanted for X” or “Tank needed for Boss Fight Y” while the lesser played non-trinity role characters sit gathering dust.

God forbid that my favorite class to play isn’t a trinity class. If I want in a group in these other games, I absolutely HAVE to roll a class that’s wanted or needed in a group, or I sit around in town begging for a group that wants to “support” me.

This reason, above every other is the reason that I believe the trinity is a dead concept.

GW1 had a trinity of sorts, but there were multiple professions that could spec to do the heal thing, or the tank thing, or the DPS thing. It wasn’t quite trinity-free, but they made an attempt at it. Aion did as well, making a class or two that didn’t quite fit the “trinity mold.” GW2 is the only game that has done away with the traditional holy trinity altogether.

It’s not a matter of who does what role and more. It’s a matter of being so ingrained into our minds that the holy trinity is necessary in the first place. After years of playing that way, it’s hard to undo all that knowledge.

So, at the risk of sounding like a troll, we all need to “learn to play” when it comes to removing the trinity. Bringing it back only serves to make us all move in the wrong direction.

But then again, this is only the opinion of one player among thousands.

It was hard to find tanks and healers in other MMOs because 85% of the playerbase like to be a dps with zero responsibility. Tanks like to lead and protect the group, if they mess up, the group will most likely die. Some people thrive on that level pressure. Similarly with healers, they like to push a group to preform above what they could individually and if they spread themselves too thin, the group will likely wipe to losing the tank.

No matter the reason why players like different roles, they exist to make a game more complex and fun. Having a game setup for only dps, makes the game way too easy. Simply stacking ‘zerker and hopping out of easily discernible telegraphed attacks, does not equal an epic skill ceiling. I used to have to concentrate so intensely on healing during some really tough boss battles that I would achieve full ’Ferret on crack’ mode, just to keep all the plates spinning! My GF used to love to poke me in the ribs after such a fight, just to watch me pop up like a madman in full fright lol! You ever get anything like that deepsing GW2?

If GW2 suddenly got a trinity, nothing would really change for players that like to dps. The change would be more orderly and complex PvE fights and the game would attract a lot more people. The PvP dynamic would also change for the better IMO. I personally don’t think anything in gaming is more fun than healing in PvP, it’s so funny if you do it right.

You’re assuming people want that feeling of being a small mammal on crack. Also this feeling is there in GW2 – try soloing a boss once your party is down and it’s just you and it. Try beating Liadri, or the new Tet.

There is a difference between losing one player aka tank or healer, and losing… 4/5 of the team.

Missing the point. More and more GW2 caters to reflex play. Something that is hilarious as ANet supposedly avoided GW1 style interrupts because they were too latency sensitive.

With no aggro management and no proper tankish stats, staying alive means staying out of reach. And that again means constantly moving around.

Thing is that anything below 900 range may well be melee, as mobs can close that gap in a second.

I am all for movement as a option, but right now the game design makes it mandatory.

Hmmm… This is working as intended. I don’t see anything wrong with it.

Yes, bring back the old days of ‘lf2m tank and heals for TA new path, gear checking. No engi heals or war tanks plz!’

Or

‘Dps lfg dungeon X’ and waiting for half hour for a group.

I mean, what was anet thinking to move away from that great of a system!?

When I first heard Gw2 would be without the Holy Trinity I was excited. But, was quickly disappointed. Dungeons are chaotic zerg fest. Pvp has a real zerg feel to it as well. I just really feel that Anet shortchanged themselves by removing the Holy Trinity.
There are literally millions of mmo players who love to heal and tank. But hey, what mmo needs millions of more players?

TooBz.3065:

I haven’t played an MMO with a trinity before, but tanking doesn’t make sense to me.

Why would creatures focus on the tank instead of the glass DPS or the glass healer. We all know in games it’s better to knock down the number of attackers rather than the toughest guy.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/09/21

100% of the focus is not on the tank at all times. Tanks lose threat and healers and dps pay the price.

I’m very fine with not having the trinity. It makes GW2 more flexible that way.