Guild Wars 2

tkalamba.2541:

kineticdamage.6279:

tkalamba.2541:

kineticdamage.6279:

So … while I salute Chris ultra dedication for this AMA (9 hours straight, wow) …
He didn’t give answers on the most important topic about current boredom :

“PD1: GW1 had hundreds of skills for each of it’s classes. Can we expect skill additions for GW2 as well? If so, will they only be added in expansions? Are there plans to add them with major non-expansion content updates?”

(and moreover, PD1 to PD4)

I was waiting for this precise answer to know if I’d log on again …

People were so maniac with the gear questions that he duplicated the same answer about it around 10 times. I don’t play for gear, I play for playing the game. It’s crazy how majority of players are still obsessive with the shiny armor syndrome.

What you’re asking for may not be feasible in a dynamic world where balance is key. You simply cannot balance hundreds of skills and please everyone. Honestly, Gw1 and Gw2 are such different games, many of the mechanics are simply not translatable.

You won’t be seeing hundreds of skills like before, atleast not profession based skills. New skills will likely be tied to new weapon types. Simplicity in this case works, especially if this game is intended for casuals. Increasing the skill count makes it that much harder for people to learn the game and get into it.

Balancing skills is actually a job, where people are paid to work on it
It would be like saying “expecting a mmo world to be visually gorgeous is irrealistic, as it would require too much occlusion culling”.
(= intelligently using player’s available point of views to reduce the amount of distant visible objects)

I understand it’s a job, but so many games already get it wrong. Hundreds of skills doesn’t make the game fun all of a sudden. To some people it just simply complicates things.

However, I too would like some new skills, but I don’t want this to be a game where there are too many to choose from. There are already balance issues, let them fix those first, and then let them worry about skills.

Actually we wouldn’t need “hundreds of new skills on our bar” to spice up the fights.
There are already tools in place in the game’s core design to allow some pretty amazing evolutions. For example, what if all skills were working like some classes’ first autoattack ? aka : press skill#1 -> effect 1, becomes skill#1b -> effect 2, becomes skill#1c, etc, and if you don’t press in time, it resets to skill#1a

This mechanic alone, which is already coded, could clearly add tons of depth into current system if it was applied to every skills (normals, utility, environmental, etc)

Want another layer of depth on top of that ? Make, for example, a trait that would give skill#2c the ability to turn skill#1 into skill#1c directly.

Another one ? Make a trait that would reset skill#3’s longer CD anytime you do a critical damage with skill#1b.

There, it’s just a rough idea, but you get it.
And for people who wouldn’t want that level of complexity, well they would just not take those traits, but simpler ones, like currently implemented.
For people who wouldn’t want their skills to change so dynamically on button press like skill#1, there could also just be some sort of “lock skill” option for each one. Balance the locking by making it slightly more powerful.

Anyway, just ideas on a forum during work pause time, but you get the idea.

kineticdamage.6279:

tkalamba.2541:

kineticdamage.6279:

tkalamba.2541:

kineticdamage.6279:

So … while I salute Chris ultra dedication for this AMA (9 hours straight, wow) …
He didn’t give answers on the most important topic about current boredom :

“PD1: GW1 had hundreds of skills for each of it’s classes. Can we expect skill additions for GW2 as well? If so, will they only be added in expansions? Are there plans to add them with major non-expansion content updates?”

(and moreover, PD1 to PD4)

I was waiting for this precise answer to know if I’d log on again …

People were so maniac with the gear questions that he duplicated the same answer about it around 10 times. I don’t play for gear, I play for playing the game. It’s crazy how majority of players are still obsessive with the shiny armor syndrome.

What you’re asking for may not be feasible in a dynamic world where balance is key. You simply cannot balance hundreds of skills and please everyone. Honestly, Gw1 and Gw2 are such different games, many of the mechanics are simply not translatable.

You won’t be seeing hundreds of skills like before, atleast not profession based skills. New skills will likely be tied to new weapon types. Simplicity in this case works, especially if this game is intended for casuals. Increasing the skill count makes it that much harder for people to learn the game and get into it.

Balancing skills is actually a job, where people are paid to work on it
It would be like saying “expecting a mmo world to be visually gorgeous is irrealistic, as it would require too much occlusion culling”.
(= intelligently using player’s available point of views to reduce the amount of distant visible objects)

I understand it’s a job, but so many games already get it wrong. Hundreds of skills doesn’t make the game fun all of a sudden. To some people it just simply complicates things.

However, I too would like some new skills, but I don’t want this to be a game where there are too many to choose from. There are already balance issues, let them fix those first, and then let them worry about skills.

Actually we wouldn’t need “hundreds of new skills on our bar” to spice up the fights.
There are already tools in place in the game’s core design to allow some pretty amazing evolutions. For example, what if all skills were working like some classes’ first autoattack ? aka : press skill#1 -> effect 1, becomes skill#1b -> effect 2, becomes skill#1c, etc, and if you don’t press in time, it resets to skill#1a

This mechanic alone, which is already coded, could clearly add tons of depth into current system if it was applied to every skills (normals, utility, environmental, etc)

Want another layer of depth on top of that ? Make, for example, a trait that would give skill#2c the ability to turn skill#1 into skill#1c directly.

Another one ? Make a trait that would reset skill#3’s longer CD anytime you do a critical damage with skill#1b.

There, it’s just a rough idea, but you get it.
And for people who wouldn’t want that level of complexity, well they would just not take those traits, but simpler ones, like currently implemented.
For people who wouldn’t want their skills to change so dynamically on button press like skill#1, there could also just be some sort of “lock skill” option for each one. Balance the locking by making it slightly more powerful.

Anyway, just ideas on a forum during work pause time, but you get the idea.

Evolving the trait system would be interesting. I actually wouldn’t mind a bit more complexity out of it.

First of all: They DID say what their intentions for the game were, and you should really read Mike O’s answers. They came out and took the time to tell us where the game is going. That was due and very appreciated.
I suggest you guys read EVERY answer by them before you claim they say something they didn’t or reducing this to a PR spin and the other words people are spurting so often that they’re losing their meaning.
Chris:
http://www.reddit.com/user/ArenaNetTeam
Mike O:
http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet
To people believing there’s no treadmill: They already said the level cap will increase at some point, probably in expansions. Guess what? gear stats will increase too. Chris was also VERY careful and made a disclaimer every time so people don’t call him liar later. Stats WILL increase, rarity tiers will not increase FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE. Wake up!

Yes, and this is important.

More generally, I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was

(make sure to go back and read the quote in context). Thats from Mike clarifying his original quote. They plan to have a “shallow” stat progression and currently believe they’re doing that. There WILL be a stat progression however. So if you don’t want one (and i guess I had misunderstood back then…and no one was correcting us at launch when all the WoW people were going berserk on the forums from the lack of vertical progression and quitting one after the other), this game isn’t for you.

I’m saddened personally. I really like this game, but guess i only liked it over a misunderstanding, as they “never intended to have no stat progression”.

Oh well. Any developer out there working on a replacement, since the market obviously exists?

kistell.5684:

As for Anet you will no-longer get any more funds from me ever again. I applied for a refund and was refused a refund on my game but told i could get refunded on all my gem purchases but they would PERMANENTLY BAN my account.

Well your idle threats mean nothing i have instructed them to do so id rather have some thing back than have egg on my face for believing the manifesto which was sold to the user base, when behind the scenes they knew it was just PR spin and totally untrue.

While you’re allowed to live in your own world of thinking, I do believe they can’t take back the game purchase costs, but they can, as sorts of a intermediate way, take back your gem purchases. In either case your account would be permanently banned of course. It’s not a refund if you get to keep playing while getting all or some money back.

@tkalamba
Planetside 2 has also some kind of vertical progression, you can e.g. boost your hitpoints with certs and not all weapons are equally powerfull.

But you are right about the fact that GW2 never really had horizontal progression, at least not like GW1.

nachtnebel.9168:

@tkalamba
Planetside 2 has also some kind of vertical progression, you can e.g. boost your hitpoints with certs and not all weapons are equally powerfull.

But you are right about the fact that GW2 never really had horizontal progression, at least not like GW1.

I’m just saying it probably has the best example out there. I’m aware there are still HP and armour boosts, but they are also used in place of other upgrades, further pushing the specialized play aspect of it.

Tomcat.8375:

[–]SocImag

Will ascended by the last new gear level we see? Your statement on the forum said you aren’t interested in adding a new gear tier every three months, but a lot of people were unsatisfied with that answer.

[–]ArenaNetTeam[S] 20 points 6 minutes ago

Hi Soc,

Thanks for taking the time to send in some questions. We do not believe we have gone against any of our principals, but we do understand the concern regarding potential grind. We absolutely design everything we do with minimal grind and will continue with this principal moving forward.

1: I would prefer that we never say never but our intention is that in terms of ‘Named Tier (Rarity) of Loot’ Ascended will be with us for a long time and we will not introduce a higher tier of loot for the foreseeable future. There will be loot with different stats and new infusions within the current tier that will be spread over long periods of time (for example Ascended gear will be deployed over the whole of next year). 2: Ascended gear will be obtainable throughout the whole of the game aside from sPvP and in retrospect it would have been better to have rolled different acquisition methods out at the smae time os the FotM.

Chris
—————————————————
Only thing worth noting at this point, and what a lot of us have been waiting for… I guess…

This really should be stickied.

While I appreciate Chris’ candor. This answer is disapointing for sure. I really want no part of new stats/ new infusions, etc. He can’t even say with 100% certainty that this is the end of this power creep. I worked hard on my armor, a new teir is simply unnaceptable to me.

I’m sure others wil be relieved that there will alternate methods to obtain ascended gear. (I’m not) They are going to be rolling out ascended gear over the course of a year? Really? (not good)

Just the fact that they don’t believe that they strayed from their manifesto is troubling beyond words. In a strange way I am relieved to hear this, because now I know that they are the problem. There’s no turning back now. Characters are deleted and the software uninstalled.

Flynch that link is nuked by my security suite so not sure what the heck was posted but it isn’t something I’ll be looking into. Thanks for trying though. I’m pretty paranoid about links no matter what site I’m on and gaming sites are quite honestly pretty bad.

Seriously can we get a list of just the Q @ A without this wall of text and arguments ?

The Q&A was very informative but a lot of misunderstanding and player frustration could have been avoided if they just said everything up front, before the last patch went live. They admittedly knew their chosen method of Ascended gear rollout was going to cause outrage, yet they went right ahead with zero warning or explanation beforehand.

“Q: Are there any plans to standardize how information is disseminated to players?
I think that a lot of the recent drama could have been abated somewhat by giving direct statements to the players, rather than leaking incomplete information to third-party sites.
This AMA is great, but it’s a few weeks late.
A: I agree whole heatedly and this is something we have and are continuing to have multiple discussions about.”

GreyFeathers.8175:

Flynch that link is nuked by my security suite so not sure what the heck was posted but it isn’t something I’ll be looking into. Thanks for trying though. I’m pretty paranoid about links no matter what site I’m on and gaming sites are quite honestly pretty bad.

Seriously can we get a list of just the Q @ A without this wall of text and arguments ?

Ah ok my apologies. Chrome didn’t flag it on mine so I had no idea! I expect that a compilation PDF of sorts could be constructed though, perhaps by a helpful mod

GreyFeathers.8175:

Flynch that link is nuked by my security suite so not sure what the heck was posted but it isn’t something I’ll be looking into. Thanks for trying though. I’m pretty paranoid about links no matter what site I’m on and gaming sites are quite honestly pretty bad.

Seriously can we get a list of just the Q @ A without this wall of text and arguments ?

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0By5N0A9US01BOUVpUkFXVm10Vm8

It’s a google doc, should hopefully not have any issues with securtiy

So, my personal takeaway from the whole thing:
1) Yes, we have vertical progression, and it’s here to stay
2) All your other ideas are interesting and Coming Soon™

Personally, I really did enjoy the fact that the day I hit level 80 I was able to make myself a weapon that had the same power-level of a legendary. That was really, really cool. I am sad that this is going away. Like many others, I honestly thought this was not the case due to the marketing for this game and I am surprised.

I really like some of the other ideas for more horizontal progression, like personal houses and wardrobes. I honestly was surprised when the game came out that those weren’t a part of it. I wish they had decided to go this route instead, and I’m disappointed that they didn’t.

Otherwise, my main concerns are the sheer volume of absolute game-stopping bugs and the lack of implementation of some of the basic promises made from the beginning, like guesting, and a real personal story area that changes. It seems like nearly every complaint that was raised was answered with Coming Soon™, which I am not sure I believe anymore. I know they prioritized getting more end-game content out there for those hungry for it, but they spent 3 months releasing stuff that was devoured in a week. That model is not sustainable – even Blizzard admits this. And while that was going on, very basic bugs and promises have not been fixed. I don’t know what their priority list looks like, but I am willing to bet things like “player housing” are far, far down the list. And the truth is, they will never get to them because there will always be something coming up that is more important. By the time they finally have enough time to fix all the little things… it will be too late and no one will be playing anymore.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Tachenon.5270:

Flynch.6034:

The man spent 8 hours answering questions. I honestly don’t know what he could have said to appease you.

Well, he could have said “Everything we say is a lie.”

I imagine the reaction here would be something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuYbDP2kDfg

Actually, that’s probably pretty accurate…

I have perhaps grown cynical in my old age, but I tend to take anything and everything a game developer says (even the ones I like) with a cargo freighter (or two) of salt, so there’s not much he could have said beyond something like “Yeah, we intentionally mislead the horizontal GW1 type guys with our manifesto video and stuff so they’d buy the game, and now that we have their money we’re switching gears in an attempt to grab some quick cash from the folks out there who prefer the grindy vertical stuff and when that’s played out we’ll switch gears again and go for yet another crowd. Maybe even… your crowd! So stick around. Lots and lots of fun stuff yet to come!” that would have impressed me. Heck, if he’d said that I’d be tempted to spend moar $$$ on the game!

The only thing that stops me from laughing at this post is the realization people seriously expected malice where stupidity (even momentary stupidity) can explain it just as well. They had what they thought was a neat idea, developed it, and didn’t stop to think about the ramifications.

And it was after they proudly put it forth that it started to sink in . . . “oh no…”

Could they have known better? Probably, very much so. Unfortunately, this has happened, and it’s time to deal with it and move on. We can’t roll it back and pretend it never happened, we can’t not acknowledge it, because it did happen. And they made it clear they’re going forward with Ascended existing in the future, there’s not much changing that.

So it’s time to move on from it. Harsh, perhaps, but it’s okay if you want to leave over this. The game isn’t what you thought it would be, that’s fine. Go back to waiting for the one you want, just know this game is still here if you feel like coming back to kill time.

And you know what, if you are on my server or see me on an Overflow and don’t violently object to grouping up, I’ll happily go do some stuff with your group. All right? Fair enough?

Maybe it was stupidity on their part like you suggested. Perhaps it was just office politics. Like you said, its over. It’s time to either accept it or leave. However, Tachenon was right. Claiming that they didn’t stray from their manifesto and break their promises is another slap in the face. It happened. (a two year old could figure that out.)

SHM.7628:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Tachenon.5270:

Flynch.6034:

The man spent 8 hours answering questions. I honestly don’t know what he could have said to appease you.

Well, he could have said “Everything we say is a lie.”

I imagine the reaction here would be something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuYbDP2kDfg

Actually, that’s probably pretty accurate…

I have perhaps grown cynical in my old age, but I tend to take anything and everything a game developer says (even the ones I like) with a cargo freighter (or two) of salt, so there’s not much he could have said beyond something like “Yeah, we intentionally mislead the horizontal GW1 type guys with our manifesto video and stuff so they’d buy the game, and now that we have their money we’re switching gears in an attempt to grab some quick cash from the folks out there who prefer the grindy vertical stuff and when that’s played out we’ll switch gears again and go for yet another crowd. Maybe even… your crowd! So stick around. Lots and lots of fun stuff yet to come!” that would have impressed me. Heck, if he’d said that I’d be tempted to spend moar $$$ on the game!

The only thing that stops me from laughing at this post is the realization people seriously expected malice where stupidity (even momentary stupidity) can explain it just as well. They had what they thought was a neat idea, developed it, and didn’t stop to think about the ramifications.

And it was after they proudly put it forth that it started to sink in . . . “oh no…”

Could they have known better? Probably, very much so. Unfortunately, this has happened, and it’s time to deal with it and move on. We can’t roll it back and pretend it never happened, we can’t not acknowledge it, because it did happen. And they made it clear they’re going forward with Ascended existing in the future, there’s not much changing that.

So it’s time to move on from it. Harsh, perhaps, but it’s okay if you want to leave over this. The game isn’t what you thought it would be, that’s fine. Go back to waiting for the one you want, just know this game is still here if you feel like coming back to kill time.

And you know what, if you are on my server or see me on an Overflow and don’t violently object to grouping up, I’ll happily go do some stuff with your group. All right? Fair enough?

Maybe it was stupidity on their part like you suggested. Perhaps it was just office politics. Like you said, its over. It’s time to either accept it or leave. However, Tachenon was right. Claiming that they didn’t stray from their manifesto and break their promises is another slap in the face. It happened. (a two year old could figure that out.)

No.

The strayed from YOUR interpretation of THEIR manifesto.

That is a big difference people don’t seem quite to be getting.

EndlessDreamer.6780:

SHM.7628:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Tachenon.5270:

Flynch.6034:

The man spent 8 hours answering questions. I honestly don’t know what he could have said to appease you.

Well, he could have said “Everything we say is a lie.”

I imagine the reaction here would be something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuYbDP2kDfg

Actually, that’s probably pretty accurate…

I have perhaps grown cynical in my old age, but I tend to take anything and everything a game developer says (even the ones I like) with a cargo freighter (or two) of salt, so there’s not much he could have said beyond something like “Yeah, we intentionally mislead the horizontal GW1 type guys with our manifesto video and stuff so they’d buy the game, and now that we have their money we’re switching gears in an attempt to grab some quick cash from the folks out there who prefer the grindy vertical stuff and when that’s played out we’ll switch gears again and go for yet another crowd. Maybe even… your crowd! So stick around. Lots and lots of fun stuff yet to come!” that would have impressed me. Heck, if he’d said that I’d be tempted to spend moar $$$ on the game!

The only thing that stops me from laughing at this post is the realization people seriously expected malice where stupidity (even momentary stupidity) can explain it just as well. They had what they thought was a neat idea, developed it, and didn’t stop to think about the ramifications.

And it was after they proudly put it forth that it started to sink in . . . “oh no…”

Could they have known better? Probably, very much so. Unfortunately, this has happened, and it’s time to deal with it and move on. We can’t roll it back and pretend it never happened, we can’t not acknowledge it, because it did happen. And they made it clear they’re going forward with Ascended existing in the future, there’s not much changing that.

So it’s time to move on from it. Harsh, perhaps, but it’s okay if you want to leave over this. The game isn’t what you thought it would be, that’s fine. Go back to waiting for the one you want, just know this game is still here if you feel like coming back to kill time.

And you know what, if you are on my server or see me on an Overflow and don’t violently object to grouping up, I’ll happily go do some stuff with your group. All right? Fair enough?

Maybe it was stupidity on their part like you suggested. Perhaps it was just office politics. Like you said, its over. It’s time to either accept it or leave. However, Tachenon was right. Claiming that they didn’t stray from their manifesto and break their promises is another slap in the face. It happened. (a two year old could figure that out.)

No.

The strayed from YOUR interpretation of THEIR manifesto.

That is a big difference people don’t seem quite to be getting.

It no longer matters anymore what the difference is. Part of the community perceived this change, this betrayal, and as a whole the community fractured. Whether they were wrong, right, deluded, prescient . . . it does not matter. It happened, it’s done.

What matters more is:

“So what do we do about it?”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

EndlessDreamer.6780:

SHM.7628:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Tachenon.5270:

Flynch.6034:

The man spent 8 hours answering questions. I honestly don’t know what he could have said to appease you.

Well, he could have said “Everything we say is a lie.”

I imagine the reaction here would be something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuYbDP2kDfg

Actually, that’s probably pretty accurate…

I have perhaps grown cynical in my old age, but I tend to take anything and everything a game developer says (even the ones I like) with a cargo freighter (or two) of salt, so there’s not much he could have said beyond something like “Yeah, we intentionally mislead the horizontal GW1 type guys with our manifesto video and stuff so they’d buy the game, and now that we have their money we’re switching gears in an attempt to grab some quick cash from the folks out there who prefer the grindy vertical stuff and when that’s played out we’ll switch gears again and go for yet another crowd. Maybe even… your crowd! So stick around. Lots and lots of fun stuff yet to come!” that would have impressed me. Heck, if he’d said that I’d be tempted to spend moar $$$ on the game!

The only thing that stops me from laughing at this post is the realization people seriously expected malice where stupidity (even momentary stupidity) can explain it just as well. They had what they thought was a neat idea, developed it, and didn’t stop to think about the ramifications.

And it was after they proudly put it forth that it started to sink in . . . “oh no…”

Could they have known better? Probably, very much so. Unfortunately, this has happened, and it’s time to deal with it and move on. We can’t roll it back and pretend it never happened, we can’t not acknowledge it, because it did happen. And they made it clear they’re going forward with Ascended existing in the future, there’s not much changing that.

So it’s time to move on from it. Harsh, perhaps, but it’s okay if you want to leave over this. The game isn’t what you thought it would be, that’s fine. Go back to waiting for the one you want, just know this game is still here if you feel like coming back to kill time.

And you know what, if you are on my server or see me on an Overflow and don’t violently object to grouping up, I’ll happily go do some stuff with your group. All right? Fair enough?

Maybe it was stupidity on their part like you suggested. Perhaps it was just office politics. Like you said, its over. It’s time to either accept it or leave. However, Tachenon was right. Claiming that they didn’t stray from their manifesto and break their promises is another slap in the face. It happened. (a two year old could figure that out.)

No.

The strayed from YOUR interpretation of THEIR manifesto.

That is a big difference people don’t seem quite to be getting.

It no longer matters anymore what the difference is. Part of the community perceived this change, this betrayal, and as a whole the community fractured. Whether they were wrong, right, deluded, prescient . . . it does not matter. It happened, it’s done.

What matters more is:

“So what do we do about it?”

And I think this AMA was their first step towards that. Which is why the animosity I’m seeing towards it just perplexes me. :/

Oh come on, the Manifesto was pretty darn clear. And it’s not like they ever made an effort to correct any of the pre-purchase fans who expressed their delight in countless threads about not suffering through an end-game gear grind.

Nor did they drop by to reassure potential players who were interested in the game but worried about a lack of horizontal progression, even though those players were constantly told by fans that they should play something else instead.

If the Manifesto itself didn’t convict them, their silence did.

Corvindi.5734:

Oh come on, the Manifesto was pretty darn clear. And it’s not like they ever made an effort to correct any of the pre-purchase fans who expressed their delight in countless threads about not suffering through an end-game gear grind.

Nor did they drop by to reassure potential players who were interested in the game but worried about a lack of horizontal progression, even though those players were constantly told by fans that they should play something else instead.

If the Manifesto itself didn’t convict them, their silence did.

Do you mean this document?

http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto

I’m just curious because so many people quote it but I’m not sure exactly what they’re quoting.

I’ve not read this thread, nor will I; I have seen enough of how this community’s players interact with each other over the past few weeks. I make this message for ArenaNet to read.

Since about one month after release I have been very critical of this game, and of ArenaNet. I do not feel the need to apologize for anything I have said, and I stand by all previous comments.

However, I would like to thank Chris Whiteside for his remarkable effort on the AMA yesterday. I had VERY low expectations of that event. I thought he would come in for an hour or so and cherry pick a few of the most butt-kissing soft-ball questions asked, thank everyone, and go back to work. I was delighted to be so very wrong. He stood tall and faced some of the most pointed, angry, and difficult questions asked. No, he didn’t have time to answer everything, and he didn’t answer hardly anything about PvP. I can forgive him for that. He did say that he wanted to schedule more of these AMAs soon to discuss PvP in more detail since he didn’t get a chance to discuss it much. I am willing to wait for that contentedly.

I did not care for all of his answers, but I am now more willing to wait and see how things change as time goes on with this game than I was yesterday morning. And I am more willing to ease back a bit on my criticism of ArenaNet for the time being, adjusting as necessary based on the direction the game takes in the near future.

In short, thank you, Chris, for your communication yesterday. Your company has not yet won this fan back, the future will determine that, but you, personally, have gained a big one. I think 8 hours of facing tough questions (half of that time was put in after hours from his home), while being under the weather, is an heroic effort that this community IN ITS ENTIRETY should stand up and applaud.

EndlessDreamer.6780:

Corvindi.5734:

Oh come on, the Manifesto was pretty darn clear. And it’s not like they ever made an effort to correct any of the pre-purchase fans who expressed their delight in countless threads about not suffering through an end-game gear grind.

Nor did they drop by to reassure potential players who were interested in the game but worried about a lack of horizontal progression, even though those players were constantly told by fans that they should play something else instead.

If the Manifesto itself didn’t convict them, their silence did.

Do you mean this document?

http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto

I’m just curious because so many people quote it but I’m not sure exactly what they’re quoting.

Alot of the time many are probably not sure as to why they are quoting it either.

Really, I still think they’ve achieved the goals they stated they wanted to achieve. This is the only MMO I’ve ever played to max level, and the only one that has been able to hold my attention for more than a month.

Corvindi.5734:

Oh come on, the Manifesto was pretty darn clear. And it’s not like they ever made an effort to correct any of the pre-purchase fans who expressed their delight in countless threads about not suffering through an end-game gear grind.

Nor did they drop by to reassure potential players who were interested in the game but worried about a lack of horizontal progression, even though those players were constantly told by fans that they should play something else instead.

If the Manifesto itself didn’t convict them, their silence did.

Jup.
Before release there were many people that said they weren’t interested in this game because cosmetic rewards was not enough for them. If Arenanet was going for a vertical progression system since the start, then they did a very bad job of marketing the game to that audience.

EndlessDreamer.6780:

Corvindi.5734:

Oh come on, the Manifesto was pretty darn clear. And it’s not like they ever made an effort to correct any of the pre-purchase fans who expressed their delight in countless threads about not suffering through an end-game gear grind.

Nor did they drop by to reassure potential players who were interested in the game but worried about a lack of horizontal progression, even though those players were constantly told by fans that they should play something else instead.

If the Manifesto itself didn’t convict them, their silence did.

Do you mean this document?

http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto

I’m just curious because so many people quote it but I’m not sure exactly what they’re quoting.

If you would have played GW1 you would understand why. In addition, the manfiesto clearly states that GW2 will not be a grindy game. Well, this most definitively changed.
And there is also the “We take all the stuff you loved about GW1 …” statement, which the gamer never stood up to.

MrClockmakerSir.1095:

I’ve not read this thread, nor will I; I have seen enough of how this community’s players interact with each other over the past few weeks. I make this message for ArenaNet to read.

Since about one month after release I have been very critical of this game, and of ArenaNet. I do not feel the need to apologize for anything I have said, and I stand by all previous comments.

However, I would like to thank Chris Whiteside for his remarkable effort on the AMA yesterday. I had VERY low expectations of that event. I thought he would come in for an hour or so and cherry pick a few of the most butt-kissing soft-ball questions asked, thank everyone, and go back to work. I was delighted to be so very wrong. He stood tall and faced some of the most pointed, angry, and difficult questions asked. No, he didn’t have time to answer everything, and he didn’t answer hardly anything about PvP. I can forgive him for that. He did say that he wanted to schedule more of these AMAs soon to discuss PvP in more detail since he didn’t get a chance to discuss it much. I am willing to wait for that contentedly.

I did not care for all of his answers, but I am now more willing to wait and see how things change as time goes on with this game than I was yesterday morning. And I am more willing to ease back a bit on my criticism of ArenaNet for the time being, adjusting as necessary based on the direction the game takes in the near future.

In short, thank you, Chris, for your communication yesterday. Your company has not yet won this fan back, the future will determine that, but you, personally, have gained a big one. I think 8 hours of facing tough questions (half of that time was put in after hours from his home), while being under the weather, is an heroic effort that this community IN ITS ENTIRETY should stand up and applaud.

I fully agree with the point you are making with this post. Chris really did do this community a service with his AMA. Regardless if you liked his answers or not, or whether you agree with the direction of the game. You do have to give this guy credit. Not many developers would take up so much of their time to cater to so much negativity. Some of the questions asked were incredibly disrespectful. I believe one basically stated they pretty much hated the dev team for Ascended gear, and I feel that was uncalled for really.

nachtnebel.9168:

EndlessDreamer.6780:

Corvindi.5734:

Oh come on, the Manifesto was pretty darn clear. And it’s not like they ever made an effort to correct any of the pre-purchase fans who expressed their delight in countless threads about not suffering through an end-game gear grind.

Nor did they drop by to reassure potential players who were interested in the game but worried about a lack of horizontal progression, even though those players were constantly told by fans that they should play something else instead.

If the Manifesto itself didn’t convict them, their silence did.

Do you mean this document?

http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto

I’m just curious because so many people quote it but I’m not sure exactly what they’re quoting.

If you would have played GW1 you would understand why. In addition, the manfiesto clearly states that GW2 will not be a grindy game. Well, this most definitively changed.
And there is also the “We take all the stuff you loved about GW1 …” statement, which the gamer never stood up to.

It hasn’t changed, the grind was always there….

tkalamba.2541:

It hasn’t changed, the grind was always there….

Getting BiS gear was never a grind till the Lost Shore patch. The grindy parts of the game were completely optional, you didn’t have to do it just in order to keep up with the rest of the players. Grind is fine, as long as it is optional and doesn’t get you better gear.

nachtnebel.9168:

tkalamba.2541:

It hasn’t changed, the grind was always there….

Getting BiS gear was never a grind till the Lost Shore patch. The grindy parts of the game were completely optional, you didn’t have to do it just in order to keep up with the rest of the players. Grind is fine, as long as it is optional and doesn’t get you better gear.

They said FOTM was a mistake…and badly implemented. A mistake they hope to avoid in the future.

So the majority of the AMA can be summarised as “vertical progression is here to stay, get used to it”. Can they please start fixing the rest of the game now and perhaps do a follow-up that purposefully answers the other questions posed?

Chuo.4238:

My full exotic set is now a waste of time, and crushingly disappointing because I really believed, before November 15th, that adding tier gear would never happen in a Guild Wars game.

By your logic, the whole game was a waste of time to begin with. Because all that time you spend getting masterwork or blue gear for you next level was a waste of time, and in a few years time the level cap (and storyline) will have progressed, as they have said they would, way beyond your current gear. And then you will have to start again to attain maximum gear, which, by your reasoning, is a waste of time too.

What ArenaNet always has been saying, is they don’t like it to be a grind, but there will be progression. Vertically and horizontally. But, instead of making it a grind we want the whole game from start to finish to be fun. This means in a way, there should be room for vertical progression as long as there is enough content that you can play and have fun with while playing to get this new gear (whether you need it or not).

That is what I have read from the beginning Arenanet announced GW2, while people stared blindly at a single sentence without bringing it into context of what they have been saying. Which was no grind. Which people linked to, no vertical progression.

However getting the ascended gear requires you to do the same content over and over. (until you get lucky) Which isn’t right and not the way they intended to put out ascended gear. Chris himself said to be responsible for that. He stepped up and said, “yeah, this wasn’t a good idea as an after-thought. But when we do more things like this we make sure we have the content to back up the gear increase. Right now we’re trying to fix this.” Of course he can’t go into detail about what that content is, as it’s not ready yet. You SHOULD know by now how AN is with something, that they think isn’t ready.

MarzAttakz.9608:

So the majority of the AMA can be summarised as “vertical progression is here to stay, get used to it”. Can they please start fixing the rest of the game now and perhaps do a follow-up that purposefully answers the other questions posed?

The problem was, people kept repeating the questions about the Ascended gear making it pretty difficult to tackle other questions.

FrizzFreston.5290:

By your logic, the whole game was a waste of time to begin with. Because all that time you spend getting masterwork or blue gear for you next level was a waste of time, and in a few years time the level cap (and storyline) will have progressed, as they have said they would, way beyond your current gear. And then you will have to start again to attain maximum gear, which, by your reasoning, is a waste of time too.

Blue and green gear value is roughly equal to the NPC sale value. There isn’t really a huge cost getting those and then selling them to the NPC when you are done with them.

Buying a level 80 rare is like getting a temporary gear you’ll turn into ecto one day, or put in the mystic forge. Heck, people actually buy them directly to do that in the first place. Same case here, getting this kind of stuff is like investing some money into a stable value knowing you get back most (if not more for rares) of your money back when you need to sell that investment later.

Buying an exotic armor set or jewelry on the other hand … The buy price is a LOT higher than the resell value currently. So it’s no wonder that many players that equipped themselves in exotic gear at no meager cost (a full exotic set is NOT cheap) are kind of pissed when some new gear with better stats comes out of nowhere.

Sifu.6527:

nachtnebel.9168:

tkalamba.2541:

It hasn’t changed, the grind was always there….

Getting BiS gear was never a grind till the Lost Shore patch. The grindy parts of the game were completely optional, you didn’t have to do it just in order to keep up with the rest of the players. Grind is fine, as long as it is optional and doesn’t get you better gear.

They said FOTM was a mistake…and badly implemented. A mistake they hope to avoid in the future.

A mistake, yes but not an accident. As system like that can only be implemented on purpose.

I mean they are trying guys give them a chance. People are treating this game like it been out a year. And that is really not fair at all.

Silentstorm.7531:

I mean they are trying guys give them a chance. People are treating this game like it been out a year. And that is really not fair at all.

Not to mention this is there first ever dynamic MMO. GW1 was too instanced to even be considered a proper MMO. It was more of a cooperative multiplayer RPG.

They’ve never done a living, breathing world before, so they even have a lot of learning to do.

EndlessDreamer.6780:

No.

The strayed from YOUR interpretation of THEIR manifesto.

That is a big difference people don’t seem quite to be getting.

Except it’s not our interpretation.

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

I was very satisfied with the answers given in the AMA, and it has put my mind at rest about Ascended gear and infusions much more than I expected. In fact, now Chris has explained it in the way that he has, I can see his point more clearly and I now have a better understanding of how they will move forward with this kind of content. So much so, that I am actually looking forward to it.

I’d like to give a big thanks to Chris and Mike for taking the time to talk to us and for being as open as possible about things. I am also excited to read that you will be holding more of these community get togethers on a regular basis.

Thanks guys.

Silentstorm.7531:

I mean they are trying guys give them a chance. People are treating this game like it been out a year. And that is really not fair at all.

Sometimes being young is not an excuse. It doesn’t matter if the game is out for 3, 12 or 36 month if you implement a system that screams “grind” from the very beginning.

Ditton.3149:

Seriously man, if you’re not happy, leave. They admitted they made several mistakes, said they want to build a rapport and better level of communication and design a better quality process in general. Its all they can do..they are not magic, they cant undo their mistakes.

Woha I just had a SWTOR dejavu moment. Did I log in to the wrong forum?

I’m sure tons will leave as GW2 takes it’s rightful place with SWTOR. Just a matter of time, just not too much.

“Of course GW2 has great support for parties, but they just don’t feel as necessary as they do in other MMOs, because your interests are always aligned with all other nearby players anyway. When someone kills a monster, not just that player’s party but everyone who was seriously involved in the fight gets 100% of the XP and loot for the kill. When an event is happening in the world – when the bandits are terrorizing a village – everyone in the area has the same motivation, and when the event ends, everyone gets rewarded.”

The above, for example, is taken from the Manifesto.

Scuse me, but why is it that I have to stop to team up in WvW and open world PVE to get decent loot drops?

Good to see this AMA, but this could of all been answered a lot earlier, why wait so long to respond, and why do they insist on using Reddit and not use the official forums?

I’m still under the suspicion there has been some in-house issues regarding recent events and if their intention was to roll out the new gear with different ways of acquiring it then why wasn’t that implemented in the first place? as they admitted that they knew there would be a backlash from players.

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.”

Also taken from the Manifesto, and just one of many quotes that led players to believe we would not have to grind endlessly for the best gear.

Silentstorm.7531:

I mean they are trying guys give them a chance. People are treating this game like it been out a year. And that is really not fair at all.

I will not parley!

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;”

“Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

Our Time is Now – Trailer

So Anet,

explain to me how any of the above is actually true now?

Mackdose.6504:

I never need to grind to have fun in GW2, Period.

Just because a grind exists, doesn’t mean you must do it to participate.

Read it again.

Stop being held hostage by other players mandates and previous MMO behaviour, stop blaming the game for not being able to get things thing you want, but not need, and stop saying that the game is doomed based on a miniscule stat increase.

It’s a game, so… of course nothing is required. You can tool around in Metrica Province forever. But the same can be said of all other MMO’s as well. I don’t need anything there either.

This argument is so lame because this is an MMO. When everyone else is off doing X and you are excluded because you haven’t done Y, then that is lame. When Y takes a really, really long time to do, then it just sucks.

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

Well, finally Mr. O’Brien summoned the courage to address this.
Thank you for the answer, and thank you for 3 months of a good game.

I can see now that you never intended for GW2 to be like GW1, and your words were simply lies and manipulations to get us to buy into your game during the beta.

I can also see now that you’re not any different than any other 2-bit kitten hole studio, and will only chase the “majority” of MMO players. GW2 only puts slight variations on MMO industry standards, it doesn’t revolutionize anything.

GW2 was supposed to be a MMO for people who don’t like MMOs. Now, it is supposed to be a MMO that can get the most people online at once.

I’ve been waiting for a somewhat direct answer to this situation, and this basically sums it up for me:

“So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.”
- Mike O’Brien, April 2010

“Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”
- Mike O’Brien, November 2012

I am very interested in how you can combine horizontal and vertical progression (progressing in two different directions?) for the same content… I believe it can not be done, and instead you can only create a very slow, very bloated vertical progression.

I’m out. I haven’t requested refunds, and so I will keep an eye on GW2 over the years just to see what happens. I can’t see me ever coming back to “catch up” with the treadmill.

Summary: Power creep is here to stay and will continue to escalate. You have only seen the thin end of the wedge. GW2 is not actually “The MMO that respects your time”.

rchu.8945:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

Our Time is Now – Trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4R5Q0ZOTa8

---

So Anet,

explain to me how any of the above is actually true now?

Apparently we’re supposed to take the 1000 hours part very literally. I.e. 1000 hours is his cut-off for grind/not grind. Nine-hundred and ninety-nine hours is fine.

Sky.9347:

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

-Snip-

“Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”
- Mike O’Brien, November 2012

I am very interested in how you can combine horizontal and vertical progression (progressing in two different directions?) for the same content… I believe it can not be done, and instead you can only create a very slow, very bloated vertical progression.

I’m out. I haven’t requested refunds, and so I will keep an eye on GW2 over the years just to see what happens. I can’t see me ever coming back to “catch up” with the treadmill.

Mister Mike O’Brien does not speak for me. I never felt GW1 was stagnant or not fun due to no vertical progression. On the contrary it was liberating to be able to do anything without the pressure of wondering if my gear was good enough.

I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way.

Although some answer left a bitter taste, I applaud to Chris’s effort and thank him for actually accepting the challenge. Kudos

to Arena Net: you guys are way better than “vertical progression”, show us how true is this.

tkalamba.2541:

Harbard.5738:

First of all: They DID say what their intentions for the game were, and you should really read Mike O’s answers. They came out and took the time to tell us where the game is going. That was due and very appreciated.

I suggest you guys read EVERY answer by them before you claim they say something they didn’t or reducing this to a PR spin and the other words people are spurting so often that they’re losing their meaning.

Chris:
http://www.reddit.com/user/ArenaNetTeam
Mike O:
http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

To people believing there’s no treadmill: They already said the level cap will increase at some point, probably in expansions. Guess what? gear stats will increase too. Chris was also VERY careful and made a disclaimer every time so people don’t call him liar later. Stats WILL increase, rarity tiers will not increase FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE. Wake up!

Honestly, people just need to see this game never actually had true horizontal progression.

The best example I like to use of Horizontal progression is Planetside 2, and its an MMO FPS. Battlerank (pretty much levels) only unlock emblems. You get certification points as you play, pretty much in lieu of actual experience, to unlock new gear, which only serve as what they called sidegrades (serve different purposes, but don’t necessarily mean they are better).

No stats, no tiers of weapons, and you could play the game, and play it really well, with never unlocking a single gun.

I just cant get into FPS games, and I hate sci fi..so that game is just not my cup of tea at all. I dont think GW2 is what it said it was..teh manifesto has little to do with it though at least the part people are up in arms about. I wanted a game that was much closer to a pen and paper rpg than anything ive seen.

Conner.4702:

Sky.9347:

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

-Snip-

“Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”
- Mike O’Brien, November 2012

I am very interested in how you can combine horizontal and vertical progression (progressing in two different directions?) for the same content… I believe it can not be done, and instead you can only create a very slow, very bloated vertical progression.

I’m out. I haven’t requested refunds, and so I will keep an eye on GW2 over the years just to see what happens. I can’t see me ever coming back to “catch up” with the treadmill.

Mister Mike O’Brien does not speak for me. I never felt GW1 was stagnant or not fun due to no vertical progression. On the contrary it was liberating to be able to do anything without the pressure of wondering if my gear was good enough.

I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way.

I never saw the difference between skill creep and power creep honestly.