Guild Wars 2

Ditton.3149:

I never saw the difference between skill creep and power creep honestly.

Well, getting new skills that aren’t just “old skill +1 damage” at least gives you some variety above the plain “sword +1 found, now go farm dungeon +1 to get sword +2”

stof.9341:

Ditton.3149:

I never saw the difference between skill creep and power creep honestly.

Well, getting new skills that aren’t just “old skill +1 damage” at least gives you some variety above the plain “sword +1 found, now go farm dungeon +1 to get sword +2”

abstractly its the same thing..being able to mitigate or do damage in order to negotiate new obstacles. To me horizontal progression would be something like being able to build a city that was yours, owning a house that was more than simple decoration and or putting together an army, a ship etc. When you think of heroes..yeah sometimes items like excalibur come into discussion, but deeds are really what makes them heroic to me.

I’m annoyed that so much of the discussion focused on ascended gear. While that sucks, it’s not even in the top 5 of problems I have with GW2. They would be:
1) Bugs, bugs, bugs. When will our classes work as intended? When will events reliably work?
2) WvW. WvW is boring. When will it be made fun? All the focus seems to be on esports.
3) The levelling process is super painful now that zones are empty. What are the plans to fix this?
4) Class balance. I understand this takes time, but certain classes are simply terrible, and others are one-trick ponies.
5) FoTM. This dungeon takes too long to run to advance levels, and the level splintering is stupid. Why can’t I hop in and run a single fractal at whatever level my group wants to run? I don’t have 3 uninterrupted hours to play.
6) Economy. Everything is super cheap except legendaries, which are stupidly expensive (mostly because everything else is super cheap). Was the loot at the end of Lost Shores an attempt to deflate the economy?
7) The Lost shores event was boring, laggy, and buggy. Then you reward people who had a high tolerance for BS with a precursor.

nachtnebel.9168:

Silentstorm.7531:

I mean they are trying guys give them a chance. People are treating this game like it been out a year. And that is really not fair at all.

Sometimes being young is not an excuse. It doesn’t matter if the game is out for 3, 12 or 36 month if you implement a system that screams “grind” from the very beginning.

It’s not about being young it’s about putting basically gw1 in a active world. I’ll say this again to people who don’t get the business of this. GW1 was a cult hit with meager profits it was never a cash cow period. So people expecting a part 2 to something that was average in profit just not living in reality. Investors in the company are not going to invest into something average.

You have to do something different and broaden your spectrum. Which is what this game was all about basically trying to do everything. People seem to have it confused with basically being a linear port of GW1. The company NEVER once said it was. It said it keep some of what made that game good. What they are doing now as I said many times and trying to make a game with multiple options.

So I’m going to say again to the people complaining. STOP trying to play god like you just are all knowing what everyone wants. And stop being selfish when you see one part of the games population get love. Because really that is all it is selfishness. You don’t have to take my word for it look around. Look at the responses “I feel betrayed”, “Why give vertical love where’s horizontal”, “I don’t want to go into dungeons”, “I have to work a little now for gear don’t wanna”

Look around it’s alot of I I I I’s no concern for the population just what you want F the rest of the game. That’s not good business if a game does that it becomes bad a joke (wow). I loved the responses they gave and should keep going. If people can’t be patient or less selfish we don’t need them in the community anyway. And they will get replaced because the game isn’t going to fold being minus selfish whiners.

Here are the things that I enjoyed reading about the most:

- The gating caused by FotM was not intentional and they will be looking at ways to ressolve this.
– Grinding overall will be looked at and efforts will be made to reduce, if not eliminate it. Anet wants you to have fun while attaining your gear, whatever part of the game you enjoy playing, and will be finding ways to achieve this. They made a few mistakes in the November content patch, but they are working on fixing this.
– Ascended gear will be the last tier they add for the foreseeable future.
– Ascended gear, and I assume infusions as well, will be attainable from many areas of the game, not just FotM.
– Ascended and Legendary gear will have the same stats.
– Vertical progression will mainly be in the form of higher grade infusions (If I understood this correctly, someone may want to clarify this).
– Stat increases on armour and weapons will most likely only occur when the level cap is raised, which is to be expected IMO.

All of these things have made me a happy Tyrian.

Rin.1046:

Here are the things that I enjoyed reading about the most:

- The gating caused by FotM was not intentional and they will be looking at ways to ressolve this.
– Grinding overall will be looked at and efforts will be made to reduce, if not eliminate it. Anet wants you to have fun while attaining your gear, whatever part of the game you enjoy playing, and will be finding ways to achieve this. They made a few mistakes in the November content patch, but they are working on fixing this.
– Ascended gear will be the last tier they add for the foreseeable future.
– Ascended gear, and I assume infusions as well, will be attainable from many areas of the game, not just FotM.
– Ascended and Legendary gear will have the same stats.
– Vertical progression will mainly be in the form of higher grade infusions (If I understood this correctly, someone may want to clarify this).
– Stat increases on armour and weapons will most likely only occur when the level cap is raised, which is to be expected IMO.

All of these things have made me a happy Tyrian.

Thing is we all knew that already. But I guess they had to say it again for the drama mommas.

Rin.1046:

Here are the things that I enjoyed reading about the most:

- The gating caused by FotM was not intentional and they will be looking at ways to ressolve this.
– Grinding overall will be looked at and efforts will be made to reduce, if not eliminate it. Anet wants you to have fun while attaining your gear, whatever part of the game you enjoy playing, and will be finding ways to achieve this. They made a few mistakes in the November content patch, but they are working on fixing this.
– Ascended gear will be the last tier they add for the foreseeable future.
– Ascended gear, and I assume infusions as well, will be attainable from many areas of the game, not just FotM.
– Ascended and Legendary gear will have the same stats.
– Vertical progression will mainly be in the form of higher grade infusions (If I understood this correctly, someone may want to clarify this).
– Stat increases on armour and weapons will most likely only occur when the level cap is raised, which is to be expected IMO.

All of these things have made me a happy Tyrian.

why should ascended gear have same stats as legendary? That’s just comical. Just because the slot upgrade might seems minimal, but it still tread mill.

lotharic.9513:

I’m annoyed that so much of the discussion focused on ascended gear. While that sucks, it’s not even in the top 5 of problems I have with GW2. They would be:
1) Bugs, bugs, bugs. When will our classes work as intended? When will events reliably work?
2) WvW. WvW is boring. When will it be made fun? All the focus seems to be on esports.
3) The levelling process is super painful now that zones are empty. What are the plans to fix this?
4) Class balance. I understand this takes time, but certain classes are simply terrible, and others are one-trick ponies.
5) FoTM. This dungeon takes too long to run to advance levels, and the level splintering is stupid. Why can’t I hop in and run a single fractal at whatever level my group wants to run? I don’t have 3 uninterrupted hours to play.
6) Economy. Everything is super cheap except legendaries, which are stupidly expensive (mostly because everything else is super cheap). Was the loot at the end of Lost Shores an attempt to deflate the economy?
7) The Lost shores event was boring, laggy, and buggy. Then you reward people who had a high tolerance for BS with a precursor.

He talked about FoTM and LS and its issues. Everything else wasnt his department and he said he would try to get more people to talk from Anet and more AMA’s, especially on WvW and PvP

Ditton.3149:

Conner.4702:

Sky.9347:

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

-Snip-

“Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”
- Mike O’Brien, November 2012

I am very interested in how you can combine horizontal and vertical progression (progressing in two different directions?) for the same content… I believe it can not be done, and instead you can only create a very slow, very bloated vertical progression.

I’m out. I haven’t requested refunds, and so I will keep an eye on GW2 over the years just to see what happens. I can’t see me ever coming back to “catch up” with the treadmill.

Mister Mike O’Brien does not speak for me. I never felt GW1 was stagnant or not fun due to no vertical progression. On the contrary it was liberating to be able to do anything without the pressure of wondering if my gear was good enough.

I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way.

I never saw the difference between skill creep and power creep honestly.

One gives more versatility the other more power. More skills never gave more outright power. Sure some builds were overpowered for a month or 2 until nerfed into oblivion. Gear only ever gets nerfed when they introduce a new tier.

The only question I wanted answered is this:

When the current wave of power-creep is done, what’s ANet’s desired acquisition time for each piece of top-statted gear?

From their actions in most recent change, it looks like they expect me to spend around 10-30 hours per piece. Assuming that’s the case, that is unacceptably long for me when each character has 6 trinkets, 6 pieces of armor, and 1-4 weapons and I have several characters and want several specs for each.

I am curious to know how much money people have spent on this game in which an update after 3 months can cause such an outrage, just like if they have been fired or their retirement plans have been revoked. I only spent $50.

Yes, statements change over time. They are called amendments. Interpretations change from person to person. “Excitement” varies from person to person. A VP and HP system are obviously different, but possibly cross-integratable? I think so (slope of a line/curve :O!)

I agree with the GW1 Stagnant statement. After being in a top 20 guild for a couple of years, and running HoH every day became boring and the reason I quit. The next expansions released new worlds and skins, which were fun for a couple of hours, and then back to PVP most people went. Sure, new skills were released, but the number of useful skills were small and new strategies/builds were figured out a couple of weeks into each expansion.

I see this “Gear Treadmill” as a “Gear Staircase”. It’s a climb, but judging from Mike and Chris’s AMA, it seems there is a plateau for now (or rather within a year).

I don’t see this stat increase and eventual character level increase as an issue. The real issue at hand is the current game infrastructure as far as bugs, profession balancing, WvW and ETC. I think the building blocks of the game need to be patched up and fixed before more weight keeps getting added on with content.

Remember, at the end of the day, it’s a game with 0 financial commitment after product purchase. If you are concerned with how much of your obviously valuable time you have (it’s a game), then pick up another game, read a book, go be productive. It’s just a game.

Conner.4702:

Ditton.3149:

Conner.4702:

Sky.9347:

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

-Snip-

“Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”
- Mike O’Brien, November 2012

I am very interested in how you can combine horizontal and vertical progression (progressing in two different directions?) for the same content… I believe it can not be done, and instead you can only create a very slow, very bloated vertical progression.

I’m out. I haven’t requested refunds, and so I will keep an eye on GW2 over the years just to see what happens. I can’t see me ever coming back to “catch up” with the treadmill.

Mister Mike O’Brien does not speak for me. I never felt GW1 was stagnant or not fun due to no vertical progression. On the contrary it was liberating to be able to do anything without the pressure of wondering if my gear was good enough.

I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way.

I never saw the difference between skill creep and power creep honestly.

One gives more versatility the other more power. More skills never gave more outright power. Sure some builds were overpowered for a month or 2 until nerfed into oblivion. Gear only ever gets nerfed when they introduce a new tier.

Versatility and power in a game are the same thing, different method of finding it. Im goal oriented, its the same process to me. You are using a skill to negotiate an ability or health of the mob. You push a button, use an ability and either do more damage or make the enemy do less damage. Its vertical progression, its just hidden the rails a bit better.

Clark Skinner.4902:

I didn’t like how they denied that the manifesto wasn’t totally betrayed. It just made me angrier at the company.
Thumbs down also to saying that just because the inserted tier is 5-11% (it’s over 11%) stronger and gradual that it’s not a gear treadmill. Just call a spade a spade.

The questions I wanted to hear about that weren’t answered were: Why have the loot drops decreased in high level zones, and from vets/champs, and was this intentional? and When will the elementalist bugs be fixed. I want existing problems to be fixed before we create new content (with its accompanying fixes). The way I see it, so much of what is still bugged should have been ready before launching the game, and now they’re biting more and more off that they can’t chew.

The questions that were answered were mostly about ascended, and we all knew what the responses would be anyway.

They are calling a spade a spade, problem is, everyone is calling a spade a shovel.

Silentstorm.7531:

You have to do something different and broaden your spectrum. Which is what this game was all about basically trying to do everything. People seem to have it confused with basically being a linear port of GW1. The company NEVER once said it was. It said it keep some of what made that game good.

They never said GW2 would be a linear port of GW1, that’s true, but they however said they would take what we love most about GW1 and put it into a persistent world. And if you say something like that you’d better be kitten sure that you exactly know what the majority of the community of your old game loves most about it. Based on the forums of both games, the absence of stat progression and the low level cap were two of the thing most people loved about GW1.

What they are doing now as I said many times and trying to make a game with multiple options.

Even if you want to create a game with many options you have to make certain decision and some of them just happen to be go / no-go onces. Stat progression is one of them, you either have it or you don’t, you can’t have a bit stat progression, that’s not possible. You can have it encapsulated in a specific part of the game that has no contact to the rest of it, but that’s all.

So I’m going to say again to the people complaining. STOP trying to play god like you just are all knowing what everyone wants. And stop being selfish when you see one part of the games population get love. Because really that is all it is selfishness. You don’t have to take my word for it look around. Look at the responses “I feel betrayed”, “Why give vertical love where’s horizontal”, “I don’t want to go into dungeons”, “I have to work a little now for gear don’t wanna”

Look around it’s alot of I I I I’s no concern for the population just what you want F the rest of the game. That’s not good business if a game does that it becomes bad a joke (wow). I loved the responses they gave and should keep going. If people can’t be patient or less selfish we don’t need them in the community anyway. And they will get replaced because the game isn’t going to fold being minus selfish whiners.

It’s not about being selfish, it’s about whether someone spends its money on GW2 or not. I’m in the “no vertical progression at all camp” and I also pre-purchased GW2 cause Arena Net made me believe that GW2 would be somehow like GW1 and that their won’t be any vertical progression at all after I got my exotic gear. I’m not alone in that camp, we are many. Yes, I am disappointed and I also feel a little betrayed and cheated, nobody can deny me that. I hade fun for a while but now I see that the time to move on will come rather sooner than later.
The AMA was good, no doubt, but I didn’t got the answers I was hoping for. I knew form the beginning that I probably won’t buy the first expansion pack since they told us that they will increase the level cap but I really hoped I would play the game and spend some money on it till then. But with the direction they are heading now I’ll say farewell way before that.

Mister Mike O’Brien does not speak for me. I never felt GW1 was stagnant or not fun due to no vertical progression. On the contrary it was liberating to be able to do anything without the pressure of wondering if my gear was good enough.

I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way.

Yeah. It was liberating. In fact I logged on it like 4 years after I stopped playing GW1 and I was like “what an amazing concept, lvl 20 is still the cap and no bloating stats and the game is still kicking!”

No bloating stats and level caps was THE thing about GW1 to me. To me that was an advancement to the genre. I stopped playing GW1 for it’s lack of persistance/heavily instanced, so when I saw they were making GW2 as a persistent world I was like OMFG PERFECT!

To read that statement from Mike O really made me lose any hope for GW2. This ship has sailed.

@Silentstorm
You’re right, but even though I suspected those things, I was still happy to have them clarified.

@rchu
I genuinly do not understand why having Ascended and Legendaries have the same stats is ‘comical’. Legendaries are supposed to be prestigious versions of top end gear, and seeing as Ascended is now the top end gear, it would seem logical to have Legendaries set as equal to Ascended. I’m not sure what you are driving at here I’m afraid. Would you prefer Legendaries to have higher stats than Ascended? I think a LOT of people would be very unhappy with this, myself included.

As to the whole treadmill thing, I feel this is really a perspective thing. A treadmill is not a bad thing if you are having fun while you run. When people say treadmill it is usually inferring that the content is not fun and feels like a grind. As they will be adding more ways to gain gear, you will be able to do the things you enjoy the most in order to get the gear you want. If you only like WvW, then you will be able to get your Ascended gear in WvW. So if you are having fun while your run, it’s not really a grind is it?

At the moment you can only get it via FotM and I agree that, to many, this is an unfunny treadmill. But they admitted this was a mistake and will try to ensure that this doesn’t happen again. So we can expect future items to be attainable in many different ways, so that we can do the things that we find fun instead of having to do things we dislike.

Rin.1046:

As to the whole treadmill thing, I feel this is really a perspective thing. A treadmill is not a bad thing if you are having fun while you run. When people say treadmill it is usually inferring that the content is not fun and feels like a grind. As they will be adding more ways to gain gear, you will be able to do the things you enjoy the most in order to get the gear you want. If you only like WvW, then you will be able to get your Ascended gear in WvW. So if you are having fun while your run, it’s not really a grind is it?

My objection is that they’re raising the time to acquire max-stat gear by a fair bit. Exotic-stats require 1-2 hours of playtime per-slot to get. That time cost makes it reasonable to keep a few sets of max-stat equipment for multiple characters and/or multiple play types (glass cannon vs. survival vs. support).

From what they’ve released, they apparently intend Ascended-tier junk (the new max-stat gear) to take much longer. Probably closer to 10-20 hours per piece. That’s more time than I want to put into max-stat gear.

That does not respect my time as a player.

This has been extremely demoralizing. I had been building exotics on alts to prepare for going away. Now I know that the gear will be definitely be marginalized not only by stat creep but by an increasing level cap. I may log in, but it will primarily be for sPvP where the gear will always be the same.

Is there a thread where Chris answered questions from the amazing pre-AMA collection that was posted? I know he said he was going to go back and forth between but how many did he get to answer?

Ascended items are meh. 3-4 questions about that was all that needed to be answered, not the majority of the AMA. So many other issues matter more than that…

mantrunks.4810:

Remember, at the end of the day, it’s a game with 0 financial commitment after product purchase. If you are concerned with how much of your obviously valuable time you have (it’s a game), then pick up another game, read a book, go be productive. It’s just a game.

Mantrunks,

Normally that’s exactly what I’d do if this was a game I’d only had a relationship with for a couple of months. But this is not just about time spent or money spent.

I (and thousands of others) have had an ongoing love affair with Guild Wars since 2005. That just got trainwrecked on the 15th of November. We’re shocked, confused, and grieving. We’re in the process of breaking up and need to go through the stages of grief.
There’s a lot of history here. A lot of time spent, and a lot of love poured into the community and one’s individual characters. It’s not easy for a longtime GW fan to just up and walk away without telling ArenaNet how disappointed we are in what they just did.
Have no doubt that we’ll move on (I think this AMA iced it for many), but let us have our painful breakup first.

Flynch.6034:

Look, they balls’d up. You don’t try to bait and switch, then send someone on for 8 hours to represent and answer questions to then bait and switch again. That’s idiotic.

Logged in just to reply to this.

Oh, please. Seriously. They HAD to send in someone to do an AMA. I would argue that it was specifically because of the backlash they did it and nothing else. It’s basically a fireman to a fire.

Just because one person says they are going to “fix it” doesn’t mean they wont try other ways of practicing it in the future. I mean kitten they even said they had meant to do it and that it was staying.

In any case, logic please?

Conner.4702:

Sky.9347:

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

-Snip-

“Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”
- Mike O’Brien, November 2012

I am very interested in how you can combine horizontal and vertical progression (progressing in two different directions?) for the same content… I believe it can not be done, and instead you can only create a very slow, very bloated vertical progression.

I’m out. I haven’t requested refunds, and so I will keep an eye on GW2 over the years just to see what happens. I can’t see me ever coming back to “catch up” with the treadmill.

Mister Mike O’Brien does not speak for me. I never felt GW1 was stagnant or not fun due to no vertical progression. On the contrary it was liberating to be able to do anything without the pressure of wondering if my gear was good enough.

I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way.

You are not. This is either a poorly worded or dumb statement by Mike. I took a year away from the game, maybe more than that, and came back to find the game changed and the way people approach encounters different. Skill system gave the game more life than increased stats can. Actually, increased stats don’t work against the getting stagnant problem. I can only imagine Mike spoke incorrectly.

arjeidi.2690:

Ascended items are meh. 3-4 questions about that was all that needed to be answered, not the majority of the AMA. So many other issues matter more than that…

Depends on you point of few, a lot of us seem to have been far more interested in ascended gear and how it will change the game we are currently playing than in balancing issues, bugs or shop items.

Heimlich.3065:

My objection is that they’re raising the time to acquire max-stat gear by a fair bit. Exotic-stats require 1-2 hours of playtime per-slot to get. That time cost makes it reasonable to keep a few sets of max-stat equipment for multiple characters and/or multiple play types (glass cannon vs. survival vs. support).

From what they’ve released, they apparently intend Ascended-tier junk (the new max-stat gear) to take much longer. Probably closer to 10-20 hours per piece. That’s more time than I want to put into max-stat gear.

That does not respect my time as a player.

I understand and agree with that, Heimlich. But the impression I got from the AMA was that they intend to make it so that Ascended gear will be easier to get than it currently is. I could be wrong of course, but if it becomes a real problem I’m sure they will adjust things.

Heimlich.3065:

My objection is that they’re raising the time to acquire max-stat gear by a fair bit. Exotic-stats require 1-2 hours of playtime per-slot to get. That time cost makes it reasonable to keep a few sets of max-stat equipment for multiple characters and/or multiple play types (glass cannon vs. survival vs. support).

From what they’ve released, they apparently intend Ascended-tier junk (the new max-stat gear) to take much longer. Probably closer to 10-20 hours per piece. That’s more time than I want to put into max-stat gear.

That does not respect my time as a player.

This is the best explanation for my problem with the current state of the game I’ve ever seen

stof.9341:

Heimlich.3065:

My objection is that they’re raising the time to acquire max-stat gear by a fair bit. Exotic-stats require 1-2 hours of playtime per-slot to get. That time cost makes it reasonable to keep a few sets of max-stat equipment for multiple characters and/or multiple play types (glass cannon vs. survival vs. support).

From what they’ve released, they apparently intend Ascended-tier junk (the new max-stat gear) to take much longer. Probably closer to 10-20 hours per piece. That’s more time than I want to put into max-stat gear.

That does not respect my time as a player.

This is the best explanation for my problem with the current state of the game I’ve ever seen

except they acknowledged this already and said they want to work to remedy exactly that situation.

Rin.1046:

I understand and agree with that, Heimlich. But the impression I got from the AMA was that they intend to make it so that Ascended gear will be easier to get than it currently is. I could be wrong of course, but if it becomes a real problem I’m sure they will adjust things.

That’s my impression too, but sadly Chris said nothing about how easy they want it to be. In my book ascended gear is 8-10 times more expensive/time consuming than it should be and I have my doubts that Arena Net sees it the same way.

Ditton.3149:

except they acknowledged this already and said they want to work to remedy exactly that situation.

Except I find the effort needed for an exotic set to be just right if a little too big. I doubt they’ll reduce ascended grind effort to exotic level any time soon. It’ll remain at least 5 times more effort than exotic.

Ditton.3149:

stof.9341:

Heimlich.3065:

My objection is that they’re raising the time to acquire max-stat gear by a fair bit. Exotic-stats require 1-2 hours of playtime per-slot to get. That time cost makes it reasonable to keep a few sets of max-stat equipment for multiple characters and/or multiple play types (glass cannon vs. survival vs. support).

From what they’ve released, they apparently intend Ascended-tier junk (the new max-stat gear) to take much longer. Probably closer to 10-20 hours per piece. That’s more time than I want to put into max-stat gear.

That does not respect my time as a player.

This is the best explanation for my problem with the current state of the game I’ve ever seen

except they acknowledged this already and said they want to work to remedy exactly that situation.

They did not say that. They said that they would consider lowering costs (from the current 20-80g for max-stat backpack) or make Ascended crap available through other avenues. They did not ever say they intended to make top-stat gear available in much less time.

Edited to add: The time-to-acquire the Berzerker’s-stat (250 Powerful Blood + 50 ecto) backpack is currently far over 10-20 hours of typical play time. They said that they’re re-consider the costs on those but haven’t specified how long they think it should take us to get a piece of max-stat gear. My guess is that they think each piece of gear should require 10-20 hours of play time. I would like it if ANet made a clear statement on that subject.

If I’m going to have to spend 10hours * 2 characters * 2 sets each * 13 items = 520 hours just getting my gear up to Ascended quality, then I’ll find something else to do. For Kitten’s sake, I’d rather just buy it from the cash shop, if there’s still an interesting and relevant game left after that.

Conner.4702:

Sky.9347:

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

-Snip-

“Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”
- Mike O’Brien, November 2012

I am very interested in how you can combine horizontal and vertical progression (progressing in two different directions?) for the same content… I believe it can not be done, and instead you can only create a very slow, very bloated vertical progression.

I’m out. I haven’t requested refunds, and so I will keep an eye on GW2 over the years just to see what happens. I can’t see me ever coming back to “catch up” with the treadmill.

Mister Mike O’Brien does not speak for me. I never felt GW1 was stagnant or not fun due to no vertical progression. On the contrary it was liberating to be able to do anything without the pressure of wondering if my gear was good enough.

I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way.

/agree 100%

Heimlich.3065:

Ditton.3149:

stof.9341:

Heimlich.3065:

My objection is that they’re raising the time to acquire max-stat gear by a fair bit. Exotic-stats require 1-2 hours of playtime per-slot to get. That time cost makes it reasonable to keep a few sets of max-stat equipment for multiple characters and/or multiple play types (glass cannon vs. survival vs. support).

From what they’ve released, they apparently intend Ascended-tier junk (the new max-stat gear) to take much longer. Probably closer to 10-20 hours per piece. That’s more time than I want to put into max-stat gear.

That does not respect my time as a player.

This is the best explanation for my problem with the current state of the game I’ve ever seen

except they acknowledged this already and said they want to work to remedy exactly that situation.

They did not say that. They said that they would consider lowering costs (from the current 20-80g for max-stat backpack) or make Ascended crap available through other avenues. They did not ever say they intended to make top-stat gear available in much less time.

The guy said they were aware things were taking alot of material to make and that they wanted to look into making it less grindy, to me that says less materials, less farming and less time. If that doesnt mean the same thing to you, then thats cool I understand.

Ditton.3149:

Heimlich.3065:

Ditton.3149:

stof.9341:

Heimlich.3065:

My objection is that they’re raising the time to acquire max-stat gear by a fair bit. Exotic-stats require 1-2 hours of playtime per-slot to get. That time cost makes it reasonable to keep a few sets of max-stat equipment for multiple characters and/or multiple play types (glass cannon vs. survival vs. support).

From what they’ve released, they apparently intend Ascended-tier junk (the new max-stat gear) to take much longer. Probably closer to 10-20 hours per piece. That’s more time than I want to put into max-stat gear.

That does not respect my time as a player.

This is the best explanation for my problem with the current state of the game I’ve ever seen

except they acknowledged this already and said they want to work to remedy exactly that situation.

They did not say that. They said that they would consider lowering costs (from the current 20-80g for max-stat backpack) or make Ascended crap available through other avenues. They did not ever say they intended to make top-stat gear available in much less time.

The guy said they were aware things were taking alot of material to make and that they wanted to look into making it less grindy, to me that says less materials, less farming and less time. If that doesnt mean the same thing to you, then thats cool I understand.

Good for you… still having faith. It is also possible you completely misunderstood what they were trying to say. Just as a lot of us did with their manifesto and pre-launch hype/promise.

EgonVenkman.1907:

Ditton.3149:

Heimlich.3065:

Ditton.3149:

stof.9341:

Heimlich.3065:

My objection is that they’re raising the time to acquire max-stat gear by a fair bit. Exotic-stats require 1-2 hours of playtime per-slot to get. That time cost makes it reasonable to keep a few sets of max-stat equipment for multiple characters and/or multiple play types (glass cannon vs. survival vs. support).

From what they’ve released, they apparently intend Ascended-tier junk (the new max-stat gear) to take much longer. Probably closer to 10-20 hours per piece. That’s more time than I want to put into max-stat gear.

That does not respect my time as a player.

This is the best explanation for my problem with the current state of the game I’ve ever seen

except they acknowledged this already and said they want to work to remedy exactly that situation.

They did not say that. They said that they would consider lowering costs (from the current 20-80g for max-stat backpack) or make Ascended crap available through other avenues. They did not ever say they intended to make top-stat gear available in much less time.

The guy said they were aware things were taking alot of material to make and that they wanted to look into making it less grindy, to me that says less materials, less farming and less time. If that doesnt mean the same thing to you, then thats cool I understand.

Good for you… still having faith. It is also possible you completely misunderstood what they were trying to say. Just as a lot of us did with their manifesto and pre-launch hype/promise.

They’ve insisted that we interpret their statements in the least charitable possible way. Remember that we’re the ones who kittened-up when we read their manifesto. We’re the ones who misunderstood when they said it’s a game that “respects our time”.

I’m taking what both Mr. O’Brien and Mr. Whiteside said very literally. They did not say that Ascended crap should be available in much less time. They did say it should be available through other avenues.

EgonVenkman.1907:

Ditton.3149:

Heimlich.3065:

Ditton.3149:

stof.9341:

Heimlich.3065:

My objection is that they’re raising the time to acquire max-stat gear by a fair bit. Exotic-stats require 1-2 hours of playtime per-slot to get. That time cost makes it reasonable to keep a few sets of max-stat equipment for multiple characters and/or multiple play types (glass cannon vs. survival vs. support).

From what they’ve released, they apparently intend Ascended-tier junk (the new max-stat gear) to take much longer. Probably closer to 10-20 hours per piece. That’s more time than I want to put into max-stat gear.

That does not respect my time as a player.

This is the best explanation for my problem with the current state of the game I’ve ever seen

except they acknowledged this already and said they want to work to remedy exactly that situation.

They did not say that. They said that they would consider lowering costs (from the current 20-80g for max-stat backpack) or make Ascended crap available through other avenues. They did not ever say they intended to make top-stat gear available in much less time.

The guy said they were aware things were taking alot of material to make and that they wanted to look into making it less grindy, to me that says less materials, less farming and less time. If that doesnt mean the same thing to you, then thats cool I understand.

Good for you… still having faith. It is also possible you completely misunderstood what they were trying to say. Just as a lot of us did with their manifesto and pre-launch hype/promise.

Nah I just dont care either way. I bought the game because a friend wanted me to play it, I play because she plays, when we’re done..ive had my utility and Ill be fine either way. The setting of the game doesnt bother me as much as it does other people I guess, I just adapt.

E Tan.7385:

Conner.4702:

Sky.9347:

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

-Snip-

“Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”
- Mike O’Brien, November 2012

I am very interested in how you can combine horizontal and vertical progression (progressing in two different directions?) for the same content… I believe it can not be done, and instead you can only create a very slow, very bloated vertical progression.

I’m out. I haven’t requested refunds, and so I will keep an eye on GW2 over the years just to see what happens. I can’t see me ever coming back to “catch up” with the treadmill.

Mister Mike O’Brien does not speak for me. I never felt GW1 was stagnant or not fun due to no vertical progression. On the contrary it was liberating to be able to do anything without the pressure of wondering if my gear was good enough.

I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way.

/agree 100%

And if both of you feel that GW1 is fun and GW2 is not fun…well they haven’t shut down GW1, so I suggest you get right back to it, right? This is GW2, not GW1. It’s an MMORPG, not a CORPG that GW1 was. This game is different and it’s own beast. Enjoy it for what it is, don’t try to change it into something it’s not.

8 hours of answering the same question over and over again, with the same PR answer over and over again… Enlightening!

Hows the bugs? Hows the culling? Hows the loot nerfs? Hows the class nerfs? Oh, and any chance of dropping the God awful RNG?

Our guild has gone from a healthy double digits to 2 (TWO!) online over the weekend, but everything is ok and the sky is intact!
It’s fast becoming another swtor style wreaking ball mmo, all we need now is for EA to buy 15% of the shares like Nexon did.
:(

Conner.4702:

Sky.9347:

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

-Snip-

“Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”
- Mike O’Brien, November 2012

I am very interested in how you can combine horizontal and vertical progression (progressing in two different directions?) for the same content… I believe it can not be done, and instead you can only create a very slow, very bloated vertical progression.

I’m out. I haven’t requested refunds, and so I will keep an eye on GW2 over the years just to see what happens. I can’t see me ever coming back to “catch up” with the treadmill.

Mister Mike O’Brien does not speak for me. I never felt GW1 was stagnant or not fun due to no vertical progression. On the contrary it was liberating to be able to do anything without the pressure of wondering if my gear was good enough.

I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way.

Exactly.

I think O’Brian here is making this mistake because he’s too close to games. Of course it’s boring for him – he spends how much time thinking about, talking about and playing the game? If 1) Everyone else is as invested as he is, and 2) Every / most players share his tastes, then his conclusion is logical.

But we’re not as invested as he is, and we don’t all share his tastes. This is a fun diversion, not something where we want to worry about regular scheduling. ANet knew they were going for the casual market, and that market doesn’t want to worry about keeping up in a game. Life is busy enough as it is, there are other priorities. A game is something to play when I want, not something I must log into regularly so I can still play.

I think it ties into the flap over one-time events too. The Other-Priorities market is a different market than the Reliably-Online market, and ANet keeps getting them mixed up.

That said, the AMA provided answers and made it clear that ANet is at least listening to community concerns. They know they goofed, they’ll fix it, and knowing that makes me more confidant in the game long-term.

Heimlich.3065:

They’ve insisted that we interpret their statements in the least charitable possible way. Remember that we’re the ones who kittened-up when we read their manifesto. We’re the ones who misunderstood when they said it’s a game that “respects our time”.

That’s one way to put it, the other is that they made us belief the game would be, at least in some way, like GW1. They misled us on purpose.

I’m taking what both Mr. O’Brien and Mr. Whiteside said very literally. They did not say that Ascended crap should be available in much less time. They did say it should be available through other avenues.

Chris also said their is currently too much grind involved. And since grind equals time sink there is a chance that ascended gear will become less time consuming to get. But even if that’s right, I doubt that they will reduce the grind enough to make ascended gear reachable for casuals.

What a let down. If they wanted to make this kind of game they just should have been up front about it. I’m sure there’s a market for it. It’s just not GW1 fans. Just because there’s some lore thrown in there doesn’t make it Guild wars.

I like the fact that this was a different game. I like the new mechanics. I think that there are some design flaws that they need to work out, but that I was willing to wait for.

Sorry to have to say this, but the devs have been systematicly destroying this game after the first three weeks. I really wanted to love this game. My only recourse is to not play/support the cash shop. (since a reund is not an option now) I also won’t be buying games in the future from you, certainly not at release..

I looked over a lot of text…..was ANY ranger questions answered? I didn’t see any

nachtnebel.9168:

Heimlich.3065:

They’ve insisted that we interpret their statements in the least charitable possible way. Remember that we’re the ones who kittened-up when we read their manifesto. We’re the ones who misunderstood when they said it’s a game that “respects our time”.

That’s one way to put it, the other is that they made us belief the game would be, at least in some way, like GW1. They misled us on purpose.

I’m taking what both Mr. O’Brien and Mr. Whiteside said very literally. They did not say that Ascended crap should be available in much less time. They did say it should be available through other avenues.

Chris also said their is currently too much grind involved. And since grind equals time sink there is a chance that ascended gear will become less time consuming to get. But even if that’s right, I doubt that they will reduce the grind enough to make ascended gear reachable for casuals.

He doesn’t use the same definition of grind that you do. It’s not clear that they what the intend the time-cost on max-stat crap to be. It’s far from clear that it’ll be what normal people consider “reasonable” when applied over a full set of stuff.

nachtnebel.9168:

Heimlich.3065:

They’ve insisted that we interpret their statements in the least charitable possible way. Remember that we’re the ones who kittened-up when we read their manifesto. We’re the ones who misunderstood when they said it’s a game that “respects our time”.

That’s one way to put it, the other is that they made us belief the game would be, at least in some way, like GW1. They misled us on purpose.

I’m taking what both Mr. O’Brien and Mr. Whiteside said very literally. They did not say that Ascended crap should be available in much less time. They did say it should be available through other avenues.

Chris also said their is currently too much grind involved. And since grind equals time sink there is a chance that ascended gear will become less time consuming to get. But even if that’s right, I doubt that they will reduce the grind enough to make ascended gear reachable for casuals.

You are misinterpreting their words again…. They NEVER said grind = time sink. Those are your words. His words were:

“I think grind is repetitive game play leading to a goal where the activity of progression isn’t fun whether it not be fun initially or it suffers from diminishing returns over a period of time.”

The only part about time is if it suffers from DR over time. Not that it would take less time to acquire. It may still be a 40 hour effort to acquire one, or longer, as long as it was fun “initially”.

Perhaps I’m picking apart their statements negatively now, but they brought that on their own. They wanted to use the lawyer-like “I never technically said that” argument. So from now on, what they don’t say will be much more important than what they do.

SHM.7628:

What a let down. If they wanted to make this kind of game they just should have been up front about it.

True, but lets be real here, would they have gotten so much money at the start if they were upfront about going vertical progression ala wow? Mmm maybe not.

Just a thought..

Gilosean.3805:

Conner.4702:

Sky.9347:

http://www.reddit.com/user/Mike-OBrien-ArenaNet

-Snip-

“Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”
- Mike O’Brien, November 2012

I am very interested in how you can combine horizontal and vertical progression (progressing in two different directions?) for the same content… I believe it can not be done, and instead you can only create a very slow, very bloated vertical progression.

I’m out. I haven’t requested refunds, and so I will keep an eye on GW2 over the years just to see what happens. I can’t see me ever coming back to “catch up” with the treadmill.

Mister Mike O’Brien does not speak for me. I never felt GW1 was stagnant or not fun due to no vertical progression. On the contrary it was liberating to be able to do anything without the pressure of wondering if my gear was good enough.

I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way.

Exactly.

I think O’Brian here is making this mistake because he’s too close to games. Of course it’s boring for him – he spends how much time thinking about, talking about and playing the game? If 1) Everyone else is as invested as he is, and 2) Every / most players share his tastes, then his conclusion is logical.

But we’re not as invested as he is, and we don’t all share his tastes. This is a fun diversion, not something where we want to worry about regular scheduling. ANet knew they were going for the casual market, and that market doesn’t want to worry about keeping up in a game. Life is busy enough as it is, there are other priorities. A game is something to play when I want, not something I must log into regularly so I can still play.

I think it ties into the flap over one-time events too. The Other-Priorities market is a different market than the Reliably-Online market, and ANet keeps getting them mixed up.

That said, the AMA provided answers and made it clear that ANet is at least listening to community concerns. They know they goofed, they’ll fix it, and knowing that makes me more confidant in the game long-term.

The difference is not hardcore v casual. It’s healthy MMO players v unhealthy MMO players.

I don’t think its the casual market as talked about that we’re speaking of here. I have 700 hours into this game and have thousands of hours in the first Guild Wars. I played WoW competitively. I don’t consider that time investment casual, but I don’t want “shallow vertical progression” because I see that VP actually offers no new experiences and changes nothing.

So it’s not just a casual audience, but an older, wiser audience that still plays heavily.

This is the simple formula for game livelihood: New content + New ways of tackling content.

Not bigger numbers or minor rewards. Even the reward system, which Ascended targets, has more problems with too much RNG rather than lack of rewards. to obtain.

MechanicalMind.9126:

SHM.7628:

What a let down. If they wanted to make this kind of game they just should have been up front about it.

True, but lets be real here, would they have gotten so much money at the start if they were upfront about going vertical progression ala wow? Mmm maybe not.

Just a thought..

It’s very ignorant / stubborn (sorry no native english speaker, looking for right word without offense :P) to still compare the vertical progression to WoW after the provided answers. Adding a tier over the course of a year and no plans to add a new tier for at least a looooong period of time isn’t really “ala WoW” where each patch contains a new gear set.

Silentstorm.7531:

Rin.1046:

Here are the things that I enjoyed reading about the most:

- The gating caused by FotM was not intentional and they will be looking at ways to ressolve this.
– Grinding overall will be looked at and efforts will be made to reduce, if not eliminate it. Anet wants you to have fun while attaining your gear, whatever part of the game you enjoy playing, and will be finding ways to achieve this. They made a few mistakes in the November content patch, but they are working on fixing this.
– Ascended gear will be the last tier they add for the foreseeable future.
– Ascended gear, and I assume infusions as well, will be attainable from many areas of the game, not just FotM.
– Ascended and Legendary gear will have the same stats.
– Vertical progression will mainly be in the form of higher grade infusions (If I understood this correctly, someone may want to clarify this).
– Stat increases on armour and weapons will most likely only occur when the level cap is raised, which is to be expected IMO.

All of these things have made me a happy Tyrian.

Thing is we all knew that already. But I guess they had to say it again for the drama mommas.

As a Tyrian myself, I enjoyed watching the discussion that you very succinctly paraphrased. However, I watch with the expectations inherent of being ‘Just Friends’.

Arenanet did not accidentally offer us a manifesto. Tyrians did not accidentally test their reading comprehension skills when using the manifesto as justification to support Arenanet. A Tyrian’s bewildered “Wait, what?” is not the call of the crying momma. It is the rational call of anyone who recognized the manifesto for what it declared: “We are Arenanet, trust us and hold us accountable”

Mr. Whiteside, Mr O’Brien, thank you for talking to us as Tyrians. Clear answers are very valuable and mia culpas very expensive. The former can payoff the latter, coming and going (couldn’t anything be described using the metaphor of economics?).

If you are serious about evolving how Tyrians discuss Tyria, we will need to discuss theses questions:

What does it mean to be Tyrian?
Do Tyrians deserve a new manifesto?
Do Tyrians deserve a constitution, expecting and accepting the fullness of the metaphor?

This is not a game. This is an online world we entrust with our children.

etiolate.9185:

VP actually offers no new experiences and changes nothing.

So it’s not just a casual audience, but an older, wiser audience that still plays heavily.

This is the simple formula for game livelihood: New content + New ways of tackling content.

Not bigger numbers or minor rewards. Even the reward system, which Ascended targets, has more problems with too much RNG rather than lack of rewards. to obtain.

Thank you for putting it this way, that’s exactly right.

Going from 2500 power to 2800 isn’t new gameplay or a reward. It doesn’t interest me, especially not if that’s going to take 100 hours or more to get.

I’d much rather be able to use those 100 hours to get 4 new max-stat item sets or level alts or work out new builds, or collect new weapon/armor skins.

Power-creep interferes with all of those goals in a couple of ways. First, it puts max-stat gear a much further out of reach, second, it introduces an opportunity cost to any non-max-gear-grinding that I would prefer to do.

MechanicalMind.9126:

SHM.7628:

What a let down. If they wanted to make this kind of game they just should have been up front about it.

True, but lets be real here, would they have gotten so much money at the start if they were upfront about going vertical progression ala wow? Mmm maybe not.

Just a thought..

That is a very short sighted way of thinking. I’ve bought a lot of games from them in the past. I’ve spent plenty of money. At least in the past, my decision to buy was informed. Did i always love what they delivered? No, but I knew what i was getting.

Now with these lies and deceptions they can no longer be trusted. Maybe they gained more in the short term by being deceptive, In the long run they lost though. The damage they did to their reputation will cost them way more than they gained.

SHM.7628:

MechanicalMind.9126:

SHM.7628:

What a let down. If they wanted to make this kind of game they just should have been up front about it.

True, but lets be real here, would they have gotten so much money at the start if they were upfront about going vertical progression ala wow? Mmm maybe not.

Just a thought..

That is a very short sighted way of thinking. I’ve bought a lot of games from them in the past. I’ve spent plenty of money. At least in the past, my decision to buy was informed. Did i always love what they delivered? No, but I knew what i was getting.

Now with these lies and deceptions they can no longer be trusted. Maybe they gained more in the short term by being deceptive, In the long run they lost though. The damage they did to their reputation will cost them way more than they gained.

I was being sarcastic my friend. I very much agree with you. Lol.

EgonVenkman.1907:

You are misinterpreting their words again…. They NEVER said grind = time sink. Those are your words. His words were:

“I think grind is repetitive game play leading to a goal where the activity of progression isn’t fun whether it not be fun initially or it suffers from diminishing returns over a period of time.”

His words are almost exactly the definition of time sink. Collection 250 t6 craft mats is not fun, it’s grind. Doing FotM over and over again isn’t fun, it’s grind. Killing mobs till you have enough gold to afford ascended gear isn’t fun, it’s grind.
If he uses the word grind he should use it in the common way: Doing something multiple times to (maybe) reach a goal.

An acceptable amount of time for a single piece of ascended gear would probably be 90 minutes. Everything longer than that is grind.