Guild Wars 2

No different to life

Irontusk.5219:

“Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, higher intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.¹”-wiki

Elitism rears its ugly head in every MMO Ive ever played. Players who view themselves as elitists seem to get more enjoyment in some hierarchical competition where they vie for top spot, parameters such as best gear, world firsts, timed instance runs and such.

They suck the fun out of groups with rude behavior usually with name calling and nasty tells in an attempt to belittle a person they deem inadequate. Ive always thought it was hilarious and a little sad that someone plays a game like GW2 as a job and ties real self esteem to an imaginary world where you actually dont accomplish anything tangible.

Some people are compelled to make whatever they do a rat race environment as if everyday life outside of Tyria wasnt bad enough. I came to the conclusion (after repeated contact with these ’Elitist" players) that A.) these people in general spend an inordinate amount of time playing video games. This itself more than any other factor leads to real mental and physical health problems in turn these people grow frustrated with other people they encounter in game that are not as experienced and therefore not as competent as they are due to real life time constraints.

If your playing a MMO like its a full time job (with overtime) of course your going to blow through the content and become bored very fast and behave in an antsy and agitated way when you are grouped with players who prehaps are new to the game or play a lot less than you.

The only way to be satisfied is find other full time GW2 players and start an All-Star guild leave the other segments of the game alone. Ive seen the elitist, MMO addicted, hardcore player base destroy communities with basically what amounts to bullying. Im led to believe that these people are very sad lonely individuals who enjoy feeling superior in a game that’s supposed to be for fun in one’s leisure time.

Remember next time someone starts whining, belittling you or acting irrational, they have probably been sitting in front of their monitor for 8-hours plus and have a very distorted view of the world.

I don’t agree with this completely. You are implying that every player who plays tremendous ammounts of hours into this game has psycholigical problems and therefore become in-game bullies towards players who can’t or don’t want to play the same hours.

I would consider myself to be “A notch above the rest” and this has multiple reasons. For 1, I play this game like a full time job, like you said. Maybe even more. That is however not because I have any psychological or social problems. Instead of going out with friends and have a beer, I preffer to play an online game with friends.
Also I have had the convenience of playing with highly motivated and intelligent players, wich helped in ways of for example learning from each other.

Coming from an environnement of “Elitist” players, I think I have a fairly accurate sense of how and what.

Elitist players don’t nececarily have psychological or social distortions that drives them to become good at a game and become irritated at everyone who doesn’t live up to their level of play. (Some do, sure, but not even close to all of them)
When an elitist player critisizes a group for a poor performance, it is usually because something has gone wrong multiple times, and someone has been trying to explain what is going on and what needs to be done to complete the instance, followed by people simply not listening and/or not caring. This can get irritating, because the entire team has to pay money out of their own pockets to repair their armor, and sometimes people don’t expect a run to take as long as they end up taking, wich is messing with their plans or they simply won’t have time to finish the run.
You should almost ask yourselves if the issue is the elitists being rude, or the newbs being ignorant. Either one of those boosts the opposing one.

Anyways this is just my view on this topic from personal experience, when I go on pug runs myself, I expect runs to not go as quick as I’d like, I just follow around and don’t really say anything besides some constructive advice here and there when it feels appropriate to do so.

Playing this game, or video games in general, like it’s a full time job and more is not normal, actually. There is a psychological component to that type of obsession.

Much of the same bad stuff that I witnessed in wow is happening in this game also. It’s just part of playing online games. The internet is full of elitists weather they be gamers or whatnot.

Myself and my wife thought that GW2 would be much different then wow in terms of community but we just found more of the same.

lothefallen.7081:

I for one think that the casual / console player has ruined a lot of opportunity for good design in this game.

I for one think that the casual / console mechanics has ruined a lot of opportunity for good design in this game, not the players…

Everything about this game has been “streamlined” down so far to appeal to certain crowd that cannot understand complex game-play and might need to actually think in the game..

Thinking in games is not fun apparently..especially with a certain growing community.

Dante.1508:

lothefallen.7081:

I for one think that the casual / console player has ruined a lot of opportunity for good design in this game.

I for one think that the casual / console mechanics has ruined a lot of opportunity for good design in this game, not the players…

Everything about this game has been “streamlined” down so far to appeal to certain crowd that cannot understand complex game-play and might need to actually think in the game..

Thinking in games is not fun apparently..especially with a certain growing community.

Now I feel in insulted man. I am casual yes. But I enjoyed alot and wish there were more games like Dark Souls. Dark Souls dephth in combat is truly quite amazing.

Sir take that comment back.

That was a surprisingly endearing read and moving thread.

I’ve noticed the atmosphere of friendliness – initially so stunningly inherent – in GW2 diminish a bit. Mostly in the Fractals, as the ‘softcore’ diminish, and a focus is put on increasing difficulty and the best of the best sifting together, and knowing all the specific tricks to each fractal.

I despise bullies, and tend to speak out against jerk players who call everyone in the group (except them) noobs, no matter how they perform (or don’t perform). Unfortunately, that just turns the wrath on yourself in most cases.

A good rule of thumb: if things get tough, don’t be a jerk – instead look for a constructive way to solve the issue you’re having.

Better times for everyone, all around.

Basically why I don’t care to do dungeons in MMO’s at end game. You got immature kids on there who seem to think that a computer game avatar makes them important. Pretty sad really and it is quite prevalent in MMO’s. Shows you the sad state of our kids and young people now days.

There is nothing wrong with a group of players who want to perform certain task with certain set up to yield maximum proficiency at what they are about to do. The word elitism get throw around way too often now a day when a player “feels” he/she is discriminate against when they get isolated or rejected. Majority of those group posted or clearly stated what their intentions are and what they are looking for when they about the run certain dungeons. If you don’t meet the criteria, then don’t ask to join.

Since gw2lfg.com goes live, I have seen a lot of players join my group when I clearly stated I want lv 80 only. When I told them I don’t want to carry anyone then they go off how elitism I am. I am not picky when it comes to class type or gears wise but I certainly don’t want to do dungeons with lv 40 or 50s because I feel it’s a waste of time. Lv 80 in GW2 takes like 3-5 days to go if you do it normally, couple of hours if you craft. It’s not much to ask. Majority of the time why not just do the run as lv 80 and then switch to your 40-50 character to leech the exp when the last boss is @ 20%?

Firegoth.6427:

I never forgot what gaming was, if anything, I’d quit the game by now if I didn’t have any fun. (why play a game I hate???)
Efficiency IS fun for some of us! Sorry but running the same path hundreds of times is just not fun, no matter the time gap between each run.
But speedrunning it? and having the rush feeling involved? yes please.

If you say “running the same path hundreds of times is just not fun” while still doing it then you have forgotten what gaming was.

Guild Wars 1 has a horrible, ABSOLUTE HORRIBLE, reputation for elitism. I figure Guild Wars 2 will be the same in a couple of more months once all the Ascended gear is here. Even more so, once the new expansion hits.

I will add this: I have already been invited by a guild that asked me to PAY them a weekly fee and to at least gain a certain amount of glory a week. It is already here and it is here to stay. Now, I will say it is no where near as bad as Guild Wars 1…. yet.

It’s pretty simple, if you take a step back and look at the big picture:

If you’re really good at online games, that’s great. I hope you also enjoy playing them.

If you like to play with other skilled people and do difficult things, that’s great. It’s a very rewarding way to enjoy things.

If, however, this is how you like to play, and then you get upset at randoms because you chose to play with randoms, the joke’s on you. Get a clue, mate. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop playing with randoms. Make a guild of uber-elite players and only play with them.

And, finally, If you think skill at an online game actually makes you better than someone else, I’m laughing at you.

lothefallen.7081:

snipped

If you want efficient dungeon runs, setup a guild to do so. Expecting a random pick-up group to full-fill your needs for a efficient task force is folly. A pug is for fun and meeting people.

Oh, and it’s a game, where people log on to have fun, enjoy themselves, chat with each other and sometimes take on a challenge, expecting all the people around you to focus on being ‘effective’ is a certain method to become frustrated.

lothefallen.7081:

Also, in a lot of cases, the elitists get frustrated by the (perceived) incompetence from the ones they harass. …

They have different idea’s about how they want to spend their online time. These so called elitists get frustrated by their own lack in understanding this difference.

Hellkaiser.6025:

“noob”

A player that pretends to be incredibly experienced, often arrogantly spouting bad directions to other new or even experienced players, lies constantly about their ingame experiences and accomplishments, blames other for their inadequacy and quickly resorts to flaming. More often than not will claim to the “pro” and is the very first person in any given situation to wrongfully accuse others of being “noobs”

-Please for the love of bob, stop misusing the term “noob” and instead use the proper term “newb” or “newbie”

Ok, I’ll admit it.. I didn’t know the difference. Good to know, thanks.

lothefallen.7081:

What i don’t get is that players complain regardless of whether the meta needs 4 warriors and a mesmer for speedclear or 4 warriors and a healer. If you don’t want optimal build setups and team comps in a social environment where the kaleidoscopic nature of your (human) being is shown to you in other players, maybe MMOs aren’t for you.

Thankfully, they stopped designing MMOs aimed at the small number of players that think like this at the turn of the Century, FFXI was the last one I can think of that clearly would suit you very well.

Vorch.2985:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

The elitism problem in GW2 is purely ncsofts fault by creating several paths and dungeons which are so pug unfriendly and require such a high degree of teamwork, it practically puts hardcore raids in WoW to shame.

Until ncsoft nerfs alot of the exp modes, we’ll just see more and more of the same.

This has to be either sarcasm or baiting.

Actually it isn’t, You could look at almost any dungeons mechanics from the ‘average’ players point of view and you’ll see why. Do I really have I post every single dungeons flaws?

Arah // CoE // SE // CM

There are just 4 dungeons which have some paths which the average MMo will struggle with, in fact ~ some paths are so bad people don’t want to pug them at all. So please, stop with the elitist crap here – plainly obvious, alot of dungeons do need nerfing here so the ‘average’ players, the pugs and the less than skillful players here can actually complete them. Just because, some players can complete them, or even say that they are ‘easy’..for them, doesn’t necessarily mean they are easy for the majority.

Heck, even some of the easier dungeons like CoF have difficult paths for average players. Look at Path 3 in CoF for instance…heck, how many players have died in Path 1s rolling rock trap? How many players have actually completed AC path 3?

Imo, as long as you’re doing content of your skillcap/gear there is no problem.
I.E. you don’t join Frac 18 with 0 AR and green gear.
You first build your exotics through PvE map completion etc, then you do frac 1-10, then you do 10 for the ring(s), then you try higher levels.

It’s not about skillcap/gear for the most part in dungeons, obviously they do play a significant part in success. But what it’s really about is individual player ability, the players ability to function as a team – the ability to avoid traps, to dodge roll big attacks and know the dungeons layout/boss fights strategy.

How many dungeons have failed because 1 or more players ability wasn’t up to the task? Just because the player could be fully geared out in exotics and legendaries doesn’t necessarily mean that player can clear dungeon content with a high degree of precision. The problem is, some of GW2 dungeons require alot of skill from the player and highly punish sloppy play – This could be from dungeons with 30 silvers in one area…or a precision teamwork puzzle (CoE) or a boss mechanic that requires everyone to survive.

This is also why GW2LFG added grouping options, one of them being ‘experienced’ – I’d like to see a random pug attempt Arah path 4 for instance….hell has a better chance to freeze over than the pug does at finishing it.

frans.8092:

If you want efficient dungeon runs, setup a guild to do so. Expecting a random pick-up group to full-fill your needs for a efficient task force is folly. A pug is for fun and meeting people.

Oh, and it’s a game, where people log on to have fun, enjoy themselves, chat with each other and sometimes take on a challenge, expecting all the people around you to focus on being ‘effective’ is a certain method to become frustrated.

People joining a pug should be able to accomplish whatever the lfg says. If it says speed run you better be able to run when it is called for. Doesn’t mean it has to be perfect, people can always have bad luck and die here or there. But if you join a speed run and then claim you can’t run while using some excuse like “pugs are for fun and meeting people”, then you are completely in the wrong.

Another example ~ I just joined a pug fotm 6 run on my alt. At the Legendary Shaman Boss, one person dies in the lava and is unrezable. Others are attacking the elementals and ignoring the boss, and then finally one person asks why is the boss healing? Sure, I could be that type of jerk who before the fight starts list every single strategy and plan of attack before the fight starts, but should we have to list every single strategy? Too many players are joining dungeons with the sole knowledge they can down everything with ease, without even bothering to check up first.

Maybe, too many players think the bosses in this game are tank and spank, minus the tank?

So I’ll say it again ~ alot of the content in this game is really not for pugs – hence, really isn’t casual friendly. And that is what is making alot of players quit the game.

Feni.4306:

frans.8092:

If you want efficient dungeon runs, setup a guild to do so. Expecting a random pick-up group to full-fill your needs for a efficient task force is folly. A pug is for fun and meeting people.

Oh, and it’s a game, where people log on to have fun, enjoy themselves, chat with each other and sometimes take on a challenge, expecting all the people around you to focus on being ‘effective’ is a certain method to become frustrated.

People joining a pug should be able to accomplish whatever the lfg says. If it says speed run you better be able to run when it is called for. Doesn’t mean it has to be perfect, people can always have bad luck and die here or there. But if you join a speed run and then claim you can’t run while using some excuse like “pugs are for fun and meeting people”, then you are completely in the wrong.

I completely agree, this isn’t WoW where content is just for hardcore guilds. In fact, with the current rate of GW2 population loss, not that many guilds are even viable anymore. So basically, the PuG is the only way to get things done, this was the sole reason why GW2LFG was created in the first place.

So basically, unless anet/ncsoft starts to cater more for the pug and casual players, just expect more and more people to quit until this game becomes a graveyard.

Only one thing that I dislike in group, and thats magic find. It’s a worthless selfish stat and does nothing. Besides that I dont care if people lack knowledge about places or if they play a little worse or better than me.

To me there is no such thing as elites in games, sure there are those that like to see themselves as it, but in all honesty its a self made label that makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside. True elite is labeled as such by outside sources, like the different elites within our real society. Thinkers, sportsmen, poets, musicians, special forces and so on people that are extraordinary within their work. And not some armchair generals that think they are elite because they say so themselves.

The true computer elite was the old school hackers back in the day, however, this is a game, there are no elites, just elitist thoughts. Many people seem to think they are elite for spending hours on end over scripted content.

I’m honest when I join dungeon groups. I havent done many at all, since I only started with the casually 2 months ago with some friends. So far I’ve only done AC and CoE pretty much. After the first run of each path I now know how they work.

Everyone is new at something at some point, not everyone prioritize the same as everyone else. My time was spent with alts, WvW, sPvP, zone completions and so on before even stepping into dungeons. Fractals however, those I did from day one.

edit: Oh forgot. Even though there are no elite players, there are certainly very bad players that never learn things. But thats a different story. Maybe some of those that feel mistreated by “elitist pricks” are just very bad players and the players kicking them or similar are just ordinary gamers.

Irontusk.5219:

The only way to be satisfied is find other full time GW2 players and start an All-Star guild leave the other segments of the game alone.

That’s usually what they do, and then people start whining about how all the groups in gw2lfg.com are looking for warriors or mesmers.

I’d suggest you go form your own casual guild, but I know how that turns out; casual guild leader can’t log in for days, and the guild suddenly collapses, or the entire guild is so casual that, except for 1-2 hours each weekend, you might as well be alone in the guild (I saw this community wide in TOR; the game was practically a ghost town during off-peak hours).

One of the Anet developers made a statement about not designing games for people who don’t play them. But that’s exactly what a casual amounts to; they play so sparingly that they’re just barely considered a member of the community (well, either that or they’re lying about how casual they really are).

Let them figure out how to fit an MMO into their life if they’re really so crazy that they’d bother to play one with their casual schedule.

Incidentally, finding a way to ignore both sides while using them for your own personal gain is the best bet. The only upside to casuals in this regard is that at least you don’t see them often enough for any individual one to be problematic.

I think this is why all the dungeons should be revamped so the casual players can actually do all of them without causing undue grief to other players. This way, the core players who already know the strats essentially get a more relaxed run without having to worry about random pugs wasting their time.

Or you could have adjustable content for skill levels – For example, players must complete each level before progressing to the next tier, at least this way…you know the player should at least know the dungeon.

Baby – Basically, the dungeon ~ everyone can complete, lowest level of loot
Easy – For Casual players ~ average loot
Medium – Slightly harder level, better loot. More mobs.
Core – For the average players, considered ‘normal’ mode.
Hardcore – For guilds or hardcore players, better loot – harder bosses
Elite – Equal to hardmodes, for highly geared/highly motivated players only.

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

I think this is why all the dungeons should be revamped so the casual players can actually do all of them without causing undue grief to other players. This way, the core players who already know the strats essentially get a more relaxed run without having to worry about random pugs wasting their time.

Or you could have adjustable content for skill levels – For example, players must complete each level before progressing to the next tier, at least this way…you know the player should at least know the dungeon.

Baby – Basically, the dungeon ~ everyone can complete, lowest level of loot
Easy – For Casual players ~ average loot
Medium – Slightly harder level, better loot. More mobs.
Core – For the average players, considered ‘normal’ mode.
Hardcore – For guilds or hardcore players, better loot – harder bosses
Elite – Equal to hardmodes, for highly geared/highly motivated players only.

I’m not sure there’s a need for that many tiers. CO has 4 tiers and no one uses the middle two – although to be fair, their Elite difficulty is not that hard. GW1 had normal and hard modes. GW2 could get by with easy, normal and hard.

You could just have several tiers, but it could be risky if ‘easy’ isn’t easy enough a blind guy could do it, and hard isn’t ‘hard’ enough that the elitist guilds can clear it in a day.

But then again, you have to think about the loot and rewards for doing higher difficulty. Obviously, people by nature want to be rewarded – however in a game like GW2 where balance is a very delicate thing, this must be preserved at all costs.

Ansultares.1567:

Irontusk.5219:

The only way to be satisfied is find other full time GW2 players and start an All-Star guild leave the other segments of the game alone.

That’s usually what they do, and then people start whining about how all the groups in gw2lfg.com are looking for warriors or mesmers.

I’d suggest you go form your own casual guild, but I know how that turns out; casual guild leader can’t log in for days, and the guild suddenly collapses, or the entire guild is so casual that, except for 1-2 hours each weekend, you might as well be alone in the guild (I saw this community wide in TOR; the game was practically a ghost town during off-peak hours).

How about all the leetists join in one big guild then the pugs which are made for the casuals incidently won’t have to deal with the name calling the bad attitudes and the lack of concern for the teams fun. And we won’t have to listen to someone scream Lrn2play or go form a guild every time someone points out a flaw in the design of something. That would solve the entire issue cause I can tell you right now bud, statistically, the leetists are definitely the minority at this point in time, it wasn’t like that in 1998 mind you but now in this market it definitely is, y’all are just going to have to get used to use poor casuals, explorers, crafters, RPers, legit farmers cause we sure aren’t going anywhere especially in this economy.

Not to sound elitist, but there are times that I don’t wanna waste time running with a newbie group ( this usually happens on weekdays ), other than that, I am usually willing to help people willing to learn.

But yeah, most of the time, I don’t like wasting my time running with people who doesn’t know the dungeon. It’s not my responsibility to teach them stuff. Youtube has them.

If you find elitism not being fun, then some of us finds new people un-fun to run with. Let’s just agree to disagree.

If the casual players would accept that an account does not afford them the right to every piece of every content, nor the rewards of those who invest more…

If the real hardcore players… well real hardcore players don’t really notice this in game, they are too busy playing the game at the highest level…

But the elitists – ah you are a special bunch, generally not any better than a casual player in terms of skill, put in more hours than the real hardcore people, want all of the best stuff but don’t want any percieved lesser player having your stuff.

The elitists are the best guys in the game, nay – the world! If it were not for the elitists my coffee would have to make itself, my car clean itself, and my kitten suck itself – let us get a special shout out to the “BEST OF THE BEST!” lol.

tigirius.9014:

won’t have to deal with the name calling the bad attitudes and the lack of concern for the teams fun.

It’s called the ignore feature.

I hardly ever seen any elitist in those “no requirement” group.

If people just stop joining those group that ask for requirement, there won’t be a problem.

The problem is casual or newbie are just like the elitist. They rather get carried by elitist group.

i’v never understood why people hate new guys so much, all these elistists were getting their kitten handed to them left and right when they started to, only difference, the started sooner. whos to say 2 months from now his not at the same skill level or even better?

I knew a few in WoW that I helped teach them the basics when they joined and quickly grew to being high end players. and i’v never let them live it down ;p
who here can honestly say they haven’t enjoyed it once or twice when your working with someones first attempt at a dungeon run or class and love being the “big brother or sister” that they look up to for answers.

I don’t think thats really the issue Chaotic, alot of people are willing to teach occasionally but sometimes when we just want a nice fast and above all, clean run and it all goes south because of some people not doing there job properly, it tends to get old fast.

NcSoft does have some blame here because of the mechanics of the game in general, lets face it ~ melee is a very unfriendly environment, especially vs bosses – Not to mention, some bosses love to focus occasionally on one particular player, Legendary Shaman is notorious for this, to a such as point they’ll end up taking so much damage they’ll end up dying anyway, and thats the price for having no aggro table.

I have a very effective method that I use for getting PUG groups of the type of players I prefer to play with.

When I post my LFG I will often add something along the lines of “This is NOT a speed run… all classes welcome… this is a kill run, we will not be skipping mobs. You do not need to be an expert, just don’t be a jerk.”

And then I actually chat with the people I’m about to group with before we enter the dungeon.

I don’t kick for lack of skill… I am more than willing to explain what we need to do, in full sentences… and clarify if need be.

There are two things I kick for… the first is refusing to interact in party chat (or if the extent of your communication is monosyllabic grunts we probably aren’t going to have fun together)… and the second is throwing ridiculous temper tantrums.

I find that while my runs may take a while longer; they are less stressful, have more camaraderie laughs and jokes, and feel much more “fun” than wordless speed runs where no one talks to anyone and the slightest mistake of any kind gets someone going apekitten like a diva with a broken nail.

You can’t control the culture of the game you are in… but you can cultivate the culture you want in the people you surround yourself with.

I think most of these points would be a non-issue if anet would just nerf some of the dungeons that really do need it. Even some fractal levels need nerfing too especially on some of the higher levels, I personally stopped doing 20+ now because too many bad pugs and constantly getting volcano fractal which is nearly impossible at that level for a pug.