Guild Wars 2

Kaiyanwan.8521:

It is the topic of this thread, what did you expect to find in here? Of course we are discussing the Manifesto in a topic called “According to the manifesto”.

People…

I think he referred to the fact that people still seems to take the Manifest as 100% truth and final, which it never actually was, and also seems to ignore all clarifications and information posted after it but before release.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Skan.5301:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Wait, what? Why would they release a manifesto for public consumption that is not crystal clear and requires “interpretation?”

What was stated was the selling point for the entire game for me.

According to some people here, it was easy to understand everything that was being talked about in the Manifesto. And also according to them, everyone followed GW2 like a piranha prior to release and knew everything and everything about the game.

Amusing right?

Oh it sure is. People need to realize that a lot of people that bought the game were new to the Guild Wars franchise. I sure was. I only learned about in August 2012 through another MMO forum, saw the manifesto and thought to myself: “Cool. This seems like a game I would really enjoy!”

I took a break last November due to IRL issues, came back around around 6 weeks ago, and I feel like I’m a sucker who fell for a bait-and-switch.

And which part of the game exactly that made you feel this way? I really cannot see anything that would make me feel like I’m a sucker for playing GW2. I have gripes, but none that would have me declare such deep disdain for it with the pretext that is the manifesto. Grind you say? There’s grind in almost every RPG out there. And this one has by far the least feel of grind.

I do know that people will retort by saying “do you even have any idea how much mats would be required to craft ascended/legs, etc?”. And I will say this, you don’t need those gear to do PvE, dungeons, WvW.. You can participate in them with an adequate understanding of your class/build with a mix of rares and masterworks. It feels grindy because you’re always in a state of utter desire for the best stuff the game has to offer.

Sure, no doubt there is a slight edge in ascended equipment, but that there is end game content man. If all you’re focused about is gear, you’re missing out on the real meat of this game, and that is the helpful and very obliging game community.

lordkrall.7241:

I think he referred to the fact that people still seems to take the Manifest as 100% truth and final, which it never actually was, and also seems to ignore all clarifications and information posted after it but before release.

Again, the manifesto was mainstreamed and the clarifications and information that accompanied it weren’t. The manifesto is still readily found where as the clarifications aren’t. If the clarifications were also there, this wouldn’t be an issue because everyone would be stopped in their tracks after sourcing it. The reason it doesn’t work now is because of the fact that they’re not front and center like everything else. They somewhere in the confines of the Internet. Not even on anything ANet related.

Tell us why this is so, and we’ll end this discussion here. I’ll even switch my stance and turn into a die hard fanboy if the answer is valid.

And “it was there 3 years before release and posted 3 days after the Manifesto” doesn’t work. I wasn’t running search bots that compiled pages for me to read when I got home for hours at a time everytime it hit on keywords related to GW2. It also doesn’t work for someone who saw the manifesto on a website and got redirected to the Gw2 site in 2013. Because again, clarified topics aren’t there.

So basically people are stupid enough to just watch a short video and then buy a game?

Would you complain about a movie you went to see after you read the first synopsis release before the movie even started filming, if it weren’t exactly like said synopsis?

Again on the topic of gear, as I posted earlier, that has been posted after the Manifesto:

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.

Read more here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview

Ascended gear and it’s implementation in November 2012 was a neck breaker for the Manifesto.

Btw, have you ever played any other MMO? Like Age of Conan pre-expansion? Why do people think that all other MMOs have been grindy? Grinding dailies or monthlies? Grinding weeks for mats for crafting?
That has all become standard in GW2 earlier than in most other AAA MMOs. It was not part of many other MMOs in their first year…

Kaiyanwan.8521:

ToPocHi.2480:

And I can’t believe people still have their minds completely tunnel-visioned on the manifesto.

It is the topic of this thread, what did you expect to find in here? Of course we are discussing the Manifesto in a topic called “According to the manifesto”.

People…

I merely gave my opinion on the matter. You didn’t have to indirectly insinuate an inability at my end to comprehend the thread topic.

You gentlemen are clearly articulate on this matter. Nonetheless, it simply doesn’t sit well with me when the manifesto is continually used as pretext to rile the forums. There’s nothing constructive to draw from it.

Edit: In response to below post. I will agree that the word for word verbatim at Colin’s end errs to a certain degree but is that such a deal breaker? Best statistical loot by 80 isn’t 100% true per se, no mistake about that, but are we in a state of a massive disadvantage to much of the content in the game if we don’t have ascended gear by then? I, for one, didn’t exactly feel that way. So, to penalise the game so heavily in that sense just hurts.

ToPocHi.2480:

Nonetheless, it simply doesn’t sit well with me when the manifesto is continually used as pretext to rile the forums. There’s nothing constructive to draw from it.

Why not when it’s still there in all it’s glory to be seen by everyone?

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/media/videos/

The kitten Manifesto is still on the official homepage. Why would people not refer to it. It is still part of the advertisement. Why should we not discuss it?

lordkrall.7241:

Would you complain about a movie you went to see after you read the first synopsis release before the movie even started filming, if it weren’t exactly like said synopsis?

I read Tolkien’s synopsis of Jackson’s movie long before Jackson filmed the movie. I didn’t expect the movie to be exactly like the synopsis, but when I saw it and saw just how far afield it strayed from the key selling points of the story as presented in the synopsis, you betcha I complained.

“If you want him, come and claim him!” indeed.

And that’s why I won’t go see his new prequel sequel movie. I read Tolkien’s synopsis of that one, too, and I liked it, I liked it a lot, and I know Jackson won’t be able to resist the temptation to throw the bulk of the synopsis in the trash while substituting so much of his own material that the fun and entertaining and relatively simple story presented in the synopsis will sprawl in (ahem) ‘epic’ fashion across three movies. Three!

Say. Was Peter Jackson involved with the production of the manifesto video in some heretofore undisclosed manner? Was Jackson perhaps responsible for the video adaption of the manifesto? That would explain a lot! Then again, it’s missing his trademark ‘people running frantically in the midst of a herd of gigantic quadrupeds’ scene…

Maybe that will make it into the video adaption of the Clarification sequel!

Torgrim.3642:

I have played GW2 since beta 1, more and more I see the GW2 manifesto getting more and more untrue.

“the cake is a lie”

ToPocHi.2480:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Skan.5301:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Wait, what? Why would they release a manifesto for public consumption that is not crystal clear and requires “interpretation?”

What was stated was the selling point for the entire game for me.

According to some people here, it was easy to understand everything that was being talked about in the Manifesto. And also according to them, everyone followed GW2 like a piranha prior to release and knew everything and everything about the game.

Amusing right?

Oh it sure is. People need to realize that a lot of people that bought the game were new to the Guild Wars franchise. I sure was. I only learned about in August 2012 through another MMO forum, saw the manifesto and thought to myself: “Cool. This seems like a game I would really enjoy!”

I took a break last November due to IRL issues, came back around around 6 weeks ago, and I feel like I’m a sucker who fell for a bait-and-switch.

And which part of the game exactly that made you feel this way? I really cannot see anything that would make me feel like I’m a sucker for playing GW2. I have gripes, but none that would have me declare such deep disdain for it with the pretext that is the manifesto. Grind you say? There’s grind in almost every RPG out there. And this one has by far the least feel of grind.

I do know that people will retort by saying “do you even have any idea how much mats would be required to craft ascended/legs, etc?”. And I will say this, you don’t need those gear to do PvE, dungeons, WvW.. You can participate in them with an adequate understanding of your class/build with a mix of rares and masterworks. It feels grindy because you’re always in a state of utter desire for the best stuff the game has to offer.

Sure, no doubt there is a slight edge in ascended equipment, but that there is end game content man. If all you’re focused about is gear, you’re missing out on the real meat of this game, and that is the helpful and very obliging game community.

I feel like a sucker because I bought into their statements about top tier gear being easily accessible and all of the horizontal progression nonsense.

Yeah, I can do WvW in exotics. I can also do it in fine gear. Would I want to? No, because fighting other players should be about skill and class knowledge, and not who had more time to grind out ascended. Of course you’ll say that ascended gear only offers a minor stat increase (untrue because weapons give you 6-10% more damage depending on spec). But okay, let’s just assume it’s a “minor stat increase”. If it’s so minor that it seemingly doesn’t matter, why not cap WvW gear at the exotic level?

Kaiyanwan.8521:

You sound like my lawyer, and I like him.

But I am not testing stuff, I read the results, check ’em, and then I normally send the stuff back and say:

That’s not what has been advertised, if you sell this stuff like it is, you get in trouble.

I remember that anyone could ask for a refund last November. ANet did this for a reason, they probably feared to get sued for false advertisement. Now you could say it was just a generous move towards their customers, but hey, generousity and economy are just not two things that get along together well.

Ah, btw, I also speek three languages fluently (one being an Asian one) and I read lawyer stuff every bloody week. I know the meaning of words and the flexibilty they offer.
This doesn’t make the game less grindy though…

Right, but less grindy has nothing, in my opinion to do the with manifesto. I wish I could find the Eric Flannum quote where he said there would be stuff to grind for in the game for people who like that play style.

You’re interpreting the word grind one way and one way only as used in the manifesto. I’m interpreting it in the traditional sense of the word, as it was originally used. The killing of creatures to level. That’s what grind originally was. People made it sound like it meant all sorts of other things, but even the main definition on wikipedia supports my definition. And with the words around it, I can’t see, honestly, how anyone can assume anything but that definition. They’re talking about fun things to do before you reach max level. We want people to have fun things to do, rather than a boring grind before we get to the fun things. That’s ALL that was being said. You’d have a whole lot of trouble proving in court they meant otherwise, and from the context and everything being said, I think you’d be wrong to try.

You have a pre-existing definition of grind. You think grind means gear grind. But no one talked about gear grind in the early days of the language. Grind always meant leveling. It’s always meant leveling to me. Without the usage of the word gear or vertical progression or anything like that, using grind to mean gear grind is, in my opinion, ill-advised.

So, as a professional editor, I look and see what was being talked about in the first usage of the word grind “in most games you have this annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”. Not before you get to better gear. Before you get to the fun stuff. In other words, you have to level before you raid.

And Colin has said exactly that same stuff afterwards on more than one convention panel. You may not remember that, but I sure do.

So I’m saying your interpretation of what was meant by the words is due to your understanding of the definition of a single word. Anet couldn’t have been sued for false advertising, unless you could prove that they meant what you said, instead of what I’ve understood from the beginning.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I feel like a sucker because I bought into their statements about top tier gear being easily accessible and all of the horizontal progression nonsense.

And ya know what? For what, it started out that way. There’s no reason to believe at the time of launch that they had every intention to do anything but that.

Then it changed. There’s one of two explanations that I can think of.

1) The game was doing perfectly fine; the GW1 veterans were carrying the title with high retention and it was more than enough to support the game, and Arena.net decided, “Ya know what… kitten them. We hate them and want to make them cry. So let’s completely change what we wanted to do and was working just fine!”

OR

2) The game wasn’t doing nearly as well as Arena.net wanted, and the GW1 veterans were only a fraction of what they needed population wise to support the model they desired. So they had to find out what could bring in players from outside the “old ways” and decided that the MMO players they needed to rely on WANTED vertical progression and to grind out their shinies.

Which one do you think is more likely?

chemiclord.3978:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I feel like a sucker because I bought into their statements about top tier gear being easily accessible and all of the horizontal progression nonsense.

And ya know what? For what, it started out that way. There’s no reason to believe at the time of launch that they had every intention to do anything but that.

Then it changed. There’s one of two explanations that I can think of.

1) The game was doing perfectly fine; the GW1 veterans were carrying the title with high retention and it was more than enough to support the game, and Arena.net decided, “Ya know what… kitten them. We hate them and want to make them cry. So let’s completely change what we wanted to do and was working just fine!”

OR

2) The game wasn’t doing nearly as well as Arena.net wanted, and the GW1 veterans were only a fraction of what they needed population wise to support the model they desired. So they had to find out what could bring in players from outside the “old ways” and decided that the MMO players they needed to rely on WANTED vertical progression and to grind out their shinies.

Which one do you think is more likely?

There are other possible explanations. There’s:

The game did better than expected (this was announced), partially by attracting people from the mainstream MMO population, who later started to complain about lack of stuff they were used to. As a compromise, Ascended was introduced as fairly shallow VP which was not a requirement for content (except in higher levels of one scalable dungeon) and with the promise of being available through various game play methods (though it’s debatable how well that has been implemented). The company was faced with remaining faithful to the spirit of what had been done in GW and trying to please other customers and implemented a compromise to try to retain as many of the old faithful and as many of the new customers as possible.

It wouldn’t be the first time an MMO developer tried to please everyone.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

ToPocHi.2480:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Skan.5301:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Wait, what? Why would they release a manifesto for public consumption that is not crystal clear and requires “interpretation?”

What was stated was the selling point for the entire game for me.

According to some people here, it was easy to understand everything that was being talked about in the Manifesto. And also according to them, everyone followed GW2 like a piranha prior to release and knew everything and everything about the game.

Amusing right?

Oh it sure is. People need to realize that a lot of people that bought the game were new to the Guild Wars franchise. I sure was. I only learned about in August 2012 through another MMO forum, saw the manifesto and thought to myself: “Cool. This seems like a game I would really enjoy!”

I took a break last November due to IRL issues, came back around around 6 weeks ago, and I feel like I’m a sucker who fell for a bait-and-switch.

And which part of the game exactly that made you feel this way? I really cannot see anything that would make me feel like I’m a sucker for playing GW2. I have gripes, but none that would have me declare such deep disdain for it with the pretext that is the manifesto. Grind you say? There’s grind in almost every RPG out there. And this one has by far the least feel of grind.

I do know that people will retort by saying “do you even have any idea how much mats would be required to craft ascended/legs, etc?”. And I will say this, you don’t need those gear to do PvE, dungeons, WvW.. You can participate in them with an adequate understanding of your class/build with a mix of rares and masterworks. It feels grindy because you’re always in a state of utter desire for the best stuff the game has to offer.

Sure, no doubt there is a slight edge in ascended equipment, but that there is end game content man. If all you’re focused about is gear, you’re missing out on the real meat of this game, and that is the helpful and very obliging game community.

I feel like a sucker because I bought into their statements about top tier gear being easily accessible and all of the horizontal progression nonsense.

Yeah, I can do WvW in exotics. I can also do it in fine gear. Would I want to? No, because fighting other players should be about skill and class knowledge, and not who had more time to grind out ascended. Of course you’ll say that ascended gear only offers a minor stat increase (untrue because weapons give you 6-10% more damage depending on spec). But okay, let’s just assume it’s a “minor stat increase”. If it’s so minor that it seemingly doesn’t matter, why not cap WvW gear at the exotic level?

Yep, this did actually change. They did actually say this. It was said at least twice during interviews. People quote that all the time.

It wasn’t, however, said in the manifesto.

eisberg.2379:

Protoavis.9107:

eisberg.2379:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Mackdose.6504:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Cap WvW gear at exotic then since ascended gear offers a supposedly trivial increase to overall power and it “doesn’t really matter”. You can still enjoy everything WvW has to offer with exotic gear.

This would invalidate all the work you’ve put in to attain the gear.

But I see you’re trying to make the “if it doesn’t matter then why have it all?” point that has been trotted out since day one.

WvW isn’t balanced around player statistics. Positioning, timing, build, numbers (as in player-count), and siege matter much more than any given player’s attribute points.

Really? Then have fun running up against an organized group decked out in ascended gear (with ascended armor) and their capability to deal approximately 20% more damage. And then come back and tell me it’s not really balanced around player statistics.

Wasn’t problem when exoctic was the highest. Didn’t see people state

Really? Then have fun running up against an organized group decked out in exotic gear (with exotic armor) and their capability to deal approximately 20% more damage. And then come back and tell me it’s not really balanced around player statistics.

because exotic gear is easy to get, has been easy to get since day 1 and won’t set you back a couple hundred gold, isn’t locked behind time gating, etc

To act like it’s remotely alike is to ignore obvious mechanisms that differentiate the two category and makes an honest discussion with you impossible as you’re the type of poster who is unwilling to hear any opinion but your own…

And ascended gear is easy to get as well. It takes time, sure, but it is still easy to get.
Also you are wrong about me, otherwise I can say the same thing about you.

easy to get….how many casuals do you see around with more than 500g (ie the approx price it takes to actually level up crafting to get ascended weapons, then there’s the cost of the ascended item itself….if you say you can farm for it all, it’s true but it’s significantly more difficult as much higher rarity mats are used than exotics and in much greater quanity)…..

Exotic gear can be gotten fairly easily (and guaranteed) from wvw, karma, dungeons or a tiny amount of gold off the exchange….this isn’t the cause with ascended. With ascended you’re time gated and locked into a very specific tasks to get the gear or having to rely on very low change and double RNG rolls….it’s not equivalent to exotic gear, it’s drop rate is much lower and it’s cost is much higher, add in the fact it’s all account bound unlike exotic gear and you’re pretty much lying to everyone to say they are alike.

In the end, the game was released true to the Manifesto last year.
Then they changed it. I followed the development as eager as you. We all knew there would be grind for items that have the best looks, that was true for the release too, just look at the legendary weapons.
And that was fine, they had the same stats as exotics and people got them anyway, without vertical progression.

Now you have to play the lawyers game, twisting words in their meaning to make statements true that sound false. You will not convince people with that kind of talk though. It is artificial.

I know you like to defend ANet, but they have done people wrong. They took everything they liked about GW1 and trashed it. At least that is what veterans feel.
And from my experience, if it feels wrong, something is wrong.

People liked how the gear was handled in GW1. Now we have vertical progression.
People liked the freedom in skill choice. Now you have fixed skills an just a handfull to choose for the open slots.
People liked the easy to achieve max level. Now they have to spend what, 60h of playtime, if you don’t craft your way there.

Now I know, “people” can be anyone. But you have to expect your customers to feel as part of that group.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

In the end, the game was released true to the Manifesto last year.
Then they changed it. I followed the development as eager as you. We all knew there would be grind for items that have the best looks, that was true for the release too, just look at the legendary weapons.
And that was fine, they had the same stats as exotics and people got them anyway, without vertical progression.

Now you have to play the lawyers game, twisting words in their meaning to make statements true that sound false. You will not convince people with that kind of talk though. It is artificial.

I know you like to defend ANet, but they have done people wrong. They took everything they liked about GW1 and trashed it. At least that is what veterans feel.
And from my experience, if it feels wrong, something is wrong.

People liked how the gear was handled in GW1. Now we have vertical progression.
People liked the freedom in skill choice. Now you have fixed skills an just a handfull to choose for the open slots.
People liked the easy to achieve max level. Now they have to spend what, 60h of playtime, if you don’t craft your way there.

Now I know, “people” can be anyone. But you have to expect your customers to feel as part of that group.

This isn’t some lawyer game, and I’m a bit offended that you think it is. I’ve ALWAYS understood the manifesto to mean grinding experience for levels. From the very first time I saw it. I never thought it was about gear grind.

I agree other interviews DID mention vertical progression and gear grind, I just believe the manifesto didn’t. The language doesn’t support that conclusion.

The manifesto wasn’t betrayed on that point, if it means what I’ve always thought it means and I’ve never thought it meant anything else.

But yes, Anet did do a 180 on vertical progression. They just didn’t talk about it in the manifesto.

The manifesto has been conveniently ignored since launch.

I wish they had of designed the game in the manifesto rather than the current shallow grindfest GW2 has become.

I personally think, reducing the meaning of grinding to just accumulating xp by killing mobs is no longer up-to-date.

Grind in games is seen as a repetitive act, be it killing mobs, farming resources or grinding quests, instances or whatever content.

Mindless repetition is seen as grinding. Farming ori and ancient wood for weeks is a mindless repetition. Farming instances for gold is a mindless repetition. But the latter one is ok with the manifesto.
The first one is mandatory though as it is needed for ascended items, which still are BiS, And don’t fool yourself, BiS items is what players strife for at 80 and they were promised to be easily accessible.
People feel excluded if they can’t, and this way you create elitism, a thing that most people tried to escape when they started with GW2.

Those with ascended items will say, they are easy to get if you just try, which will enrage the people that try and can not even more.

And as a result we have drama, as seen here on the forums, and to be honest, rightfully though.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I personally think, reducing the meaning of grinding to just accumulating xp by killing mobs is no longer up-to-date.

Grind in games is seen as a repetitive act, be it killing mobs, farming resources or grinding quests, instances or whatever content.

Mindless repetition is seen as grinding. Farming ori and ancient wood for weeks is a mindless repetition. Farming instances for gold is a mindless repetition. But the latter one is ok with the manifesto.
The first one is mandatory though as it is needed for ascended items, which still are BiS, And don’t fool yourself, BiS items is what players strife for at 80 and they were promised to be easily accessible.
People feel excluded if they can’t, and this way you create elitism, a thing that most people tried to escape when they started with GW2.

Those with ascended items will say, they are easy to get if you just try, which will enrage the people that try and can not even more.

And as a result we have drama, as seen here on the forums, and to be honest, rightfully though.

It’s not up to date…you’re right. But the manifesto was written 3 years ago and it was more up to date then than today. Language changes.

More to the point, whether it’s up to date or not up today, my intepretation is supported by the words used around it. None of the words around it mention gear, or vertical progression. They’re talking about fun things to do. I’m not sure how anyone things BIS gear is something to do. It doesn’t make sense. And it’s backed up by other stuff Colin had said at the time after it. I’m sure others here besides me can remember Colin saying stuff about having big encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in the starting zone as an example of this. I can’t be the last guy who remembers.

Could it have been worded differently? Without a doubt. Would it have been better if it had been worded differently. Sure.

As an editor, I’ve found it’s lways after something’s published that people realize the backlash. No one at Anet could have possible thought when making that teaser that 3 years later, people would still be referring to it as a bible.

manifesto are long forgotten

Vayne.8563:

Knighthonor.4061:

I would like Anet to simply say they are sorry for lying. Easy to do really. much respect gained from it.

Edit:

Doesnt Colin have a MMORPG.com account?

Lying implies intent. You can prove intent, I suppose?

To Sell game accounts and SE…

Knighthonor.4061:

To Sell game accounts and SE…

That does not prove intent.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

ANet is just very unwise in their choice of formulations, which causes backslashes all the time.

But compared to “More Than An Expansion’s Worth of Content”, the Manifesto was at least true for the first weeks of the game. Novemeber was just a 180 turn to how the game worked.

Bait and switch I think is the proper term for that.

Actually it’s not the correct term for that. It’s completely the wrong term.

Bait and switch refers to advertising something, a specific product and then saying when you get to the store it’s out of stock or there’s something wrong or missing with it, and trying to sell a different product. It is not saying that you’re going to do something and doing something else.

As an example…if a place advertising a VCR for a very cheap price, too cheap, and then doesn’t have it in stock and tries to switch you to a different model, that maybe has more features, for just a couple of dollars more…that’s the legal definition of bait and switch. Before I started writing full time and working as an editor, I managed a computer store for many, many years.

What you’re talking about is false advertising, but even false advertising wouldn’t really cover this. In order for this to be a case of false advertising, you’d have to prove that this was some major selling point. It would have to be listed clearly on the package, and or on the website, or in ads.

Saying that something ambiguous meant what you thought it meant, when it turned out to be something else doesn’t really cut it.

Anet advertised dynamic events and provided them (with many examples along the way). Anet advertised a personal story and provided it. Anet advertised WvW and provided it.

A single small feature of an MMO might get you a refund of your purchase price after a reasonable amount of time, but in no way do I believe that Anet could be charged with false advertising.

They wouldn’t even be fined.

In terms of MMOs it is. If you see it from your lawyer standpoint of course, it is different.

But in terms of MMOs it means that you start out with a product and the product at one point goes into a totally different direction, like from horizontal to vertical progression.

You have been tricked to buy a product, that becomes something different than you were expecting.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

In terms of MMOs it is. If you see it from your lawyer standpoint of course, it is different.

But in terms of MMOs it means that you start out with a product and the product at one point goes into a totally different direction, like from horizontal to vertical progression.

You have been tricked to buy a product, that becomes something different than you were expecting.

Its about integrity.

Anet lost their way somewhere. They said they would make a new revolutionary game based on horizontal progression. They never delivered.

Now their forums are full of angry customers… and Vayne.

Its sad because if they had just improved on their first game but kept to its principles or even kept to the manifesto, I think we’d all be playing a totally awesome product.

I’ve been for and against some changes to this game. I’ve been against the Living Story temporary content, the zerg content and recently added vertical progression. I see no problem in voicing an opinion and trying to help be a part of the process of steering the game in a good direction (while that direction and definition of good is open to perception – not the point here).
Coming from that standpoint……let’s drop the kitten Manifesto. GW2 is an MMO and its going to change based on is playerbase. Clinging to this this and holding it in an almost religious light helps noone. Stop being a grudge holding spouse ready to throw something someone said back in their face on a moments notice 5 years later.
If this is the best you have up to offer as constructive feedback, then the game is just as kittened. What should properly happen is feedback as to what they’ve changed, instead of personal attacks and this kitten ed Manifesto being whipped out everytime they do something.
I hope if there’s one thing Anet learned from this….its to never have a Manifesto as it’s stated intentions will be used against you for years and year to come if you don’t comply with it to each and every persons different interpretations of the words in it.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Not a single person trying to defend the game at it’s current state on my four points. Good. Looks like we at least agree on those topics.

The Manifesto is gone. It was like a temple but then they decided to destroy the main pillar. The whole thing collapsed and what we see now is a ruin, which some people try to defend with the argument:

“It is technically still a temple even though it lies in ruins…”

Didn’t respond to it because it was 100% opinion being stated as if it was a fact.

eisberg.2379:

Didn’t respond to it because it was 100% opinion being stated as if it was a fact.

Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

It doesn’t make the things less true, just because you think it is just my personal opinion.
Would you be so kind and point out what is my personal opinion, so I may point out to you even more clearly what is fact. Please.

Lonesamurai.4852:

Exosferatu.2961:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Wait, what? Why would they release a manifesto for public consumption that is not crystal clear and requires “interpretation?”

What was stated was the selling point for the entire game for me.

Because everything does not always go according to plan.

You’re right, however the manifesto is 100% out the window

Thats a BIG difference

Except for it isn’t. Everything in the Manifesto is true.

Just your meaning that you put that Anet did not intend is what makes it not true. But for what Anet said themselves it meant is still holds true.

Skan.5301:

lordkrall.7241:

I think he referred to the fact that people still seems to take the Manifest as 100% truth and final, which it never actually was, and also seems to ignore all clarifications and information posted after it but before release.

Again, the manifesto was mainstreamed and the clarifications and information that accompanied it weren’t. The manifesto is still readily found where as the clarifications aren’t. If the clarifications were also there, this wouldn’t be an issue because everyone would be stopped in their tracks after sourcing it. The reason it doesn’t work now is because of the fact that they’re not front and center like everything else. They somewhere in the confines of the Internet. Not even on anything ANet related.

Tell us why this is so, and we’ll end this discussion here. I’ll even switch my stance and turn into a die hard fanboy if the answer is valid.

And “it was there 3 years before release and posted 3 days after the Manifesto” doesn’t work. I wasn’t running search bots that compiled pages for me to read when I got home for hours at a time everytime it hit on keywords related to GW2. It also doesn’t work for someone who saw the manifesto on a website and got redirected to the Gw2 site in 2013. Because again, clarified topics aren’t there.

The stuff in the “MMO Reactions” 3 days later, was also in the information given for the next 2 years after that. If you just saw Manifesto Trailer, but never read anything else that was given in a 2 year period after that, you have no one to blame but yourself. Anet cannot force you to read all the information they have given, that is purely your responsibility, and just going by one 2 minute video and nothing else makes you a irresponsible consumer.

eisberg.2379:

Lonesamurai.4852:

Exosferatu.2961:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Wait, what? Why would they release a manifesto for public consumption that is not crystal clear and requires “interpretation?”

What was stated was the selling point for the entire game for me.

Because everything does not always go according to plan.

You’re right, however the manifesto is 100% out the window

Thats a BIG difference

Except for it isn’t. Everything in the Manifesto is true.

Just your meaning that you put that Anet did not intend is what makes it not true. But for what Anet said themselves it meant is still holds true.

Go here:

Jump to 23min 30sec. Listen.

Reflect on your comment.

No one should care about the manifesto. It’s ancient history and not reflective of the current state of the game.

TooBz.3065:

No one should care about the manifesto. It’s ancient history and not reflective of the current state of the game.

Yet the current state of the game keep changing.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I personally think, reducing the meaning of grinding to just accumulating xp by killing mobs is no longer up-to-date.

What you think in this regard is irrelevant.

What you think doesn’t override the direct context that the video establishes before and after the quote everyone likes to cherry pick.

Simply put, you’re projecting unstated meaning and then arguing against what your projecting. If anyone is twisting words and playing some kind of lawyer’s game, it’s you with every post.

This is what happens when something false (ArenaNet lied, the manifesto was broken, the game is nothing but a gear grind now, ascended gear is grind to win, gear > skill) gets repeated over and over and over again.

People believe that’s what happened. You know what’s worse? People even in the face of direct evidence will dig their heels in and defend lies to confirm their personal belief.

Here we are a year down the road from pink gear and people are trotting out “Think of the casuals!” as justification for being mad that there’s a build up to the gear plateau.

1. Detractors ignore the fact that the gear provides only minor benefits in most of the game.
2. Detractors ignore the fact that a percentage increase in power != absolute increase in effectiveness. (A miss in ascended gear is still 0, and the entire combat system revolves around avoiding/preventing damage)
3. Detractors lie to the player base by stating as fact that there’s a “mandatory gear treadmill,” which underscores that detractors clearly don’t know what “mandatory” or “treadmill” means.

Here’s every argument on ascended gear:

Preface: Ascended gear was released to provided players long term goals over a period of time while granting small improvements to your character to provide incentive and make the time spent worth it.

A: It increases power by a small amount, making it an optional goal.
B: That gives an “unfair advantage” to people who reach that goal in WvW.
A: In the grand scheme of WvW mechanics, gear makes only small impact, if any.
B: But assuming all other things equal—
A: Stop. That’s basically saying that if we remove all game mechanics except an auto-attack, the ascended player would win. That’s an absurd argument.
B: Okay, fine, but if the ascended gear makes such a small difference, why not just remove it or scale it down?
A: That would defeat the point of working to get the gear in the first place, and it would go against Anet’s design for WvW which is meant to be the open-world PvPvE environment.
B: Okay, but it’s unfair to casual players, because it takes a lot of time and effort to acquire.
A: But it’s not “unfair” because they have the exact same opportunity to get the items and the game doesn’t gate content with gear checks, fractals being the exception that proves the rule.
B: I just don’t want to have to put effort into getting BiS gear because my expectation of the game was that BiS would be easy to attain.
A: It was easy to attain. So easy, in fact, that everyone would get the BiS and then stop playing, complaining that “there were no goals besides a legendary grind.”
B: That’s means that we’ve started down the path of Vertical Progression, now all my work is invalid!
A: Actually, Colin confirmed that ascended is intended to be the final rarity of gear and that the focus will shift to developing horizontal rewards going forward.

The manifesto’s point is that GW2 is a shift in MMO design. Everyone points to the ascended update as the day the manifesto died, mostly because they just finished gearing full exotic and now had a new rarity to collect. This looked like a WoW gear refresh and everyone panicked.

Everyone should know by now that the game come out half-baked. It’s clear now as we’re heading towards the last pieces of ascended that ascended is the gear plateau with exotics standing as the powerful, cool looking gear that’s readily available. Exotic is the baseline for endgame play, with the endgame rewards (ie pink gear) providing small improvements up to the gear cap.

Are there flaws in the implementation? Absolutely.

Complaints against time-gating affecting altoholics are completely valid, and should be taken very seriously by Anet.

TL;DR

The game’s gear ceiling went up because it’s what players asked for, now that the end game void has been addressed if not eliminated, Anet can start on Horizontal rewards and bring more Guild Wars into Guild Wars 2.

The manifesto is still alive and kicking, and to see it you have to look at the game as a whole and instead of making mountains out of mole-hills.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

eisberg.2379:

Lonesamurai.4852:

Exosferatu.2961:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Wait, what? Why would they release a manifesto for public consumption that is not crystal clear and requires “interpretation?”

What was stated was the selling point for the entire game for me.

Because everything does not always go according to plan.

You’re right, however the manifesto is 100% out the window

Thats a BIG difference

Except for it isn’t. Everything in the Manifesto is true.

Just your meaning that you put that Anet did not intend is what makes it not true. But for what Anet said themselves it meant is still holds true.

Go here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axLVJfzCe74

Jump to 23min 30sec. Listen.

Reflect on your comment.

Also, thats me that asked

So yeah, how I take the Manifesto is totally correct, they dumped it!

Dark Catalyst.1028:

kitten it.

It looks like the grinders and the people who “need something to strive for” in a game , won. Grats guys, it’s all yours. You know how I’ll deal with ascended gear in game? By never logging into the game again.

I will NOT run mindless content over and over for these mats. I will NOT join the 24/7 Queensdale and Frostgorge champ trains. And I will NOT spend hundreds of goal on ONE profession just to level it and time gate myself into oblivion. This is ridiculous!

Well kitten , since you don’t want to do that stuff, that means you have the entirety of the game to play unobstructed.

Manifesto: 1
Crying about BiS: 0

Time to move on from the game play other games while staying on the forums.

Mackdose.6504:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

kitten it.

It looks like the grinders and the people who “need something to strive for” in a game , won. Grats guys, it’s all yours. You know how I’ll deal with ascended gear in game? By never logging into the game again.

I will NOT run mindless content over and over for these mats. I will NOT join the 24/7 Queensdale and Frostgorge champ trains. And I will NOT spend hundreds of goal on ONE profession just to level it and time gate myself into oblivion. This is ridiculous!

Well kitten , since you don’t want to do that stuff, that means you have the entirety of the game to play unobstructed.

Manifesto: 1
Crying about BiS: 0

I really don’t know what to say to someone who claims that clear, mathematically proven statistical advantages from ascended gear “don’t really matter” in WvW and fights against other players. And that these advantages don’t compound with the advantages other players geared in ascended bring.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Mackdose.6504:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

kitten it.

It looks like the grinders and the people who “need something to strive for” in a game , won. Grats guys, it’s all yours. You know how I’ll deal with ascended gear in game? By never logging into the game again.

I will NOT run mindless content over and over for these mats. I will NOT join the 24/7 Queensdale and Frostgorge champ trains. And I will NOT spend hundreds of goal on ONE profession just to level it and time gate myself into oblivion. This is ridiculous!

Well kitten , since you don’t want to do that stuff, that means you have the entirety of the game to play unobstructed.

Manifesto: 1
Crying about BiS: 0

I really don’t know what to say to someone who claims that clear, mathematically proven statistical advantages from ascended gear “don’t really matter” in WvW and fights against other players. And that these advantages don’t compound with the advantages other players geared in ascended bring.

Mathematically proven for zerker gear, in perfect world conditions: 1v1, no movement, no dodging, no buffs, no lag, no weapon skills, no healing, no conditions.

Yes, that’s really what you’re saying, because that’s all the math tells us.

Don’t you think that the analysis is willfully ignoring 95% of the combat mechanics to suit the argument?

Mackdose.6504:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Mackdose.6504:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

kitten it.

It looks like the grinders and the people who “need something to strive for” in a game , won. Grats guys, it’s all yours. You know how I’ll deal with ascended gear in game? By never logging into the game again.

I will NOT run mindless content over and over for these mats. I will NOT join the 24/7 Queensdale and Frostgorge champ trains. And I will NOT spend hundreds of goal on ONE profession just to level it and time gate myself into oblivion. This is ridiculous!

Well kitten , since you don’t want to do that stuff, that means you have the entirety of the game to play unobstructed.

Manifesto: 1
Crying about BiS: 0

I really don’t know what to say to someone who claims that clear, mathematically proven statistical advantages from ascended gear “don’t really matter” in WvW and fights against other players. And that these advantages don’t compound with the advantages other players geared in ascended bring.

Mathematically proven for zerker gear, in perfect world conditions: 1v1, no movement, no dodging, no buffs, no lag, no weapon skills, no healing, no conditions.

Yes, that’s really what you’re saying, because that’s all the math tells us.

Don’t you think that the analysis is willfully ignoring 95% of the combat mechanics to suit the argument?

No? It’s the people that claim that “ascended advantage is minimal and can be ignored” that are willfully ignoring reality.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

In terms of MMOs it is. If you see it from your lawyer standpoint of course, it is different.

But in terms of MMOs it means that you start out with a product and the product at one point goes into a totally different direction, like from horizontal to vertical progression.

You have been tricked to buy a product, that becomes something different than you were expecting.

Depends on what percentage of the fan base or player base saw that as a main feature. I’m thinking it might not be as high as most people assume.

Mackdose.6504:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Mackdose.6504:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

kitten it.

It looks like the grinders and the people who “need something to strive for” in a game , won. Grats guys, it’s all yours. You know how I’ll deal with ascended gear in game? By never logging into the game again.

I will NOT run mindless content over and over for these mats. I will NOT join the 24/7 Queensdale and Frostgorge champ trains. And I will NOT spend hundreds of goal on ONE profession just to level it and time gate myself into oblivion. This is ridiculous!

Well kitten , since you don’t want to do that stuff, that means you have the entirety of the game to play unobstructed.

Manifesto: 1
Crying about BiS: 0

I really don’t know what to say to someone who claims that clear, mathematically proven statistical advantages from ascended gear “don’t really matter” in WvW and fights against other players. And that these advantages don’t compound with the advantages other players geared in ascended bring.

Mathematically proven for zerker gear, in perfect world conditions: 1v1, no movement, no dodging, no buffs, no lag, no weapon skills, no healing, no conditions.

Yes, that’s really what you’re saying, because that’s all the math tells us.

Don’t you think that the analysis is willfully ignoring 95% of the combat mechanics to suit the argument?

It’s still a +1 in the advantage category. Which is why you see people grinding their little hearts out and spending ridiculous amounts of money in order to craft these monstrosities. If people didn’t think it would give them an edge, they wouldn’t waste their time.

Imagine you play as well as you do now and you know you can’t avoid or run away from everything. You remain the same but everything else hits 10% harder. This doesn’t affect your gameplay?

Anyway, this shouldn’t even be an issue because I was promised easy access to max stat gear.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Mackdose.6504:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Mackdose.6504:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

kitten it.

It looks like the grinders and the people who “need something to strive for” in a game , won. Grats guys, it’s all yours. You know how I’ll deal with ascended gear in game? By never logging into the game again.

I will NOT run mindless content over and over for these mats. I will NOT join the 24/7 Queensdale and Frostgorge champ trains. And I will NOT spend hundreds of goal on ONE profession just to level it and time gate myself into oblivion. This is ridiculous!

Well kitten , since you don’t want to do that stuff, that means you have the entirety of the game to play unobstructed.

Manifesto: 1
Crying about BiS: 0

I really don’t know what to say to someone who claims that clear, mathematically proven statistical advantages from ascended gear “don’t really matter” in WvW and fights against other players. And that these advantages don’t compound with the advantages other players geared in ascended bring.

Mathematically proven for zerker gear, in perfect world conditions: 1v1, no movement, no dodging, no buffs, no lag, no weapon skills, no healing, no conditions.

Yes, that’s really what you’re saying, because that’s all the math tells us.

Don’t you think that the analysis is willfully ignoring 95% of the combat mechanics to suit the argument?

It’s still a +1 in the advantage category. Which is why you see people grinding their little hearts out and spending ridiculous amounts of money in order to craft these monstrosities. If people didn’t think it would give them an edge, they wouldn’t waste their time.

Imagine you play as well as you do now and you know you can’t avoid or run away from everything. You remain the same but everything else hits 10% harder. This doesn’t affect your gameplay?

Anyway, this shouldn’t even be an issue because I was promised easy access to max stat gear.

If you have zerker exotics and I have ascended non-zerker, you out damage me.

That right there should illustrate how small this gap we’re talking about is.

Mackdose.6504:

If you have zerker exotics and I have ascended non-zerker, you out damage me.

That right there should illustrate how small this gap we’re talking about is.

If I have ascended zerker and you have exotic zerker, I will outdamage you.
So simple is it to illustrate that there is a gap.

What is your point in comparing apple and oranges?

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Mackdose.6504:

If you have zerker exotics and I have ascended non-zerker, you out damage me.

That right there should illustrate how small this gap we’re talking about is.

If I have ascended zerker and you have exotic zerker, I will outdamage you.
So simple is it to illustrate that there is a gap.

What is your point in comparing apple and oranges?

Because it’s not apples and oranges, they’re both ascended gear, and they both have higher base weapon damage.

The wisdom (lol) on this forum would dictate that the ascended gear by default should be better than all of the previous tier.

This illustrates that the stat increase is negligible in WvW.

eisberg.2379:

Skan.5301:

lordkrall.7241:

I think he referred to the fact that people still seems to take the Manifest as 100% truth and final, which it never actually was, and also seems to ignore all clarifications and information posted after it but before release.

Again, the manifesto was mainstreamed and the clarifications and information that accompanied it weren’t. The manifesto is still readily found where as the clarifications aren’t. If the clarifications were also there, this wouldn’t be an issue because everyone would be stopped in their tracks after sourcing it. The reason it doesn’t work now is because of the fact that they’re not front and center like everything else. They somewhere in the confines of the Internet. Not even on anything ANet related.

Tell us why this is so, and we’ll end this discussion here. I’ll even switch my stance and turn into a die hard fanboy if the answer is valid.

And “it was there 3 years before release and posted 3 days after the Manifesto” doesn’t work. I wasn’t running search bots that compiled pages for me to read when I got home for hours at a time everytime it hit on keywords related to GW2. It also doesn’t work for someone who saw the manifesto on a website and got redirected to the Gw2 site in 2013. Because again, clarified topics aren’t there.

The stuff in the “MMO Reactions” 3 days later, was also in the information given for the next 2 years after that. If you just saw Manifesto Trailer, but never read anything else that was given in a 2 year period after that, you have no one to blame but yourself. Anet cannot force you to read all the information they have given, that is purely your responsibility, and just going by one 2 minute video and nothing else makes you a irresponsible consumer.

The point remains that everything pretty much that was released on GW2 was emailed to me including the Manifesto. The clarifications were not. So by your logic back then I was supposed to go to Google/Yahoo/Bing/Netscape or whatever and search “GW2 news”?

Yeah, I had better things to do than come home after classes and work than to spend ~5 hours researching this game when instead I was sent this boss kitten video on how the game was going to be.

Keep trying though.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Mackdose.6504:

If you have zerker exotics and I have ascended non-zerker, you out damage me.

That right there should illustrate how small this gap we’re talking about is.

If I have ascended zerker and you have exotic zerker, I will outdamage you.
So simple is it to illustrate that there is a gap.

What is your point in comparing apple and oranges?

Arguing at this point is futile, as the grinders and vertical progression people won. It’s their game now.

Compare a full ascended gear set(which is where the game is headed) vs a full exotic gear set of the same stat grouping, and you’ll see a sizeable difference and it’ll make an enormous difference in WvW. Im willing to bet that with the toxic community that GW2 has the reputation for, that even dungeon runs will be governed by “post full ascended set”..or if the group wipes with 2% left on the boss, someone will say “Who doesnt have ascended here?” Sure, skill matters. But stats mean a bit more.

With that said I can always run a dungeon group with ‘like minded’ people. Sure, I’ll spend a glorious amount of time sifting and finding that perfect marvelous group that is like minded, so I can run a dungeon with them in peace.

There is a difference, and when the full ascended sets are released, it will be a large difference. You think people are crying now, just wait. This is the biggest fatal flaw arenanet has made, but I am just an ordinary player without stats in front of me. Its all in my head right?