Guild Wars 2

Yes, chemiclord, yes. I was thinking about this as I puttered about this morning.

This game is designed to be cooperative and inclusive. People being people, it does give us a block feature to help avoid those who are … shall we say, less cooperative than might be wished. And people being people, there are those who want to be more choosy about whom they share their time with. Yet in GW2, that is a less-supported option because it does fragment the players and create barriers to joining in the fun.

The OP’s idea sounded rather nice to me at first blush. At least, it seemed a reasoned attempt by a would-be excluder to manage it in a non-rancorous manner. Now that I think on it, however, it won’t stop the malicious from just checking the box so they can see all the offered runs and deliberately join ones they don’t match so as to use up time. It will create venom and spite (just as we see in every thread where someone suggests ways to keep the undesirables out of their dungeon runs).

The whole thing about a random LFG tool is you are going to get random people. Some of them will be fools, some of them will be great. Sure it’s annoying if they join without matching your posted description. Say “sorry, you clicked the wrong group, this is [ x description ]” and kick them. You’ll get your requested parameters eventually and you’ll have a chatlog to show you weren’t being mean, while they’ll have an explanation and possibly incentive to read more carefully.

If you don’t want random people, find 4 like-minded friends. If your set up for the run really is that good, there should be plenty of others who agree and will join you for repeated runs, right?

When the daily included a 21-30 fractal, 5 of my guild started it. Then one, our most experienced, had to leave for dinner with her folks when we were on the third fractal towards the end. We LFG’d the open slot, got someone who’d had to leave a repeatedly wiping group. He was a support guardian, as was I, and the rest of the run went very smoothly and our PuGger was super-nice. We’d have missed out on the lovely time we had with him if we’d been picky about getting only the most perfectly geared and traited of only the most wished for profession.

Obtena.7952:

maha.7902:

This is nothing to do with min-maxing or meta, this is to do with weeding out people who don’t meet your requirements joining your group.

You can already do that with asking them to ping their gear.

There are people in this very thread who join these groups and ping some gear they just keep in their inventory to ping, not to actually wear.

There are people I know who use a 3rd party DPS meter program on people in their groups who are not using berserker thanks to being able to identify their HP and the group’s overall DPS which is lower than what a full berserker group would be doing.

These liars and leechers are the people who will be filtered out if the OP’s suggestion is implemented. I still don’t see how this is a bad thing. People still aren’t explaining how something that can weed out undesirables and which you can fully opt in for would be a negative thing for the game. Want to join “zerk only exp” groups? Have your gear on display, nothing to hide, no problemo. Want to just dungeon with your non-DPS build? Sure, that’s cool too, you just can’t see the groups that would like you to have your gear viewable. Everyone wins.

chemiclord.3978:

Something that I’ve noticed over these two years is the player base’s insistence on dividing themselves. They want to be able to exclude themselves from whatever segment of the player base they want (be it hard modes to filter out the “casuals”, or gear checks to filter out people who don’t have the “right” gear, or raids to filter out the “noobs” dragging them down, etc…)

I suspect you’re not seeing these tools because the last thing Arena.net has wanted to do is fragment the player base. They don’t want you filtering out swaths of players for whatever reason.

Not giving us the proper tools to avoid players we dont want to play with is exactly what causes all these arguements and toxicity. A fragmented community is healthier so long as there is not too many fragments.

If everyone is forced to play with each other then people of differing opinions collide and hostile behaviour and griefing occurs. This is the case with people disliking path selling or lfg requirements so whenever they see a seller or zerk group on the lfg, instead of ignoring it, they decide to grief or whisper abuse. Thank the world for being full of ignorance, intolerence and immaturity.

Guardian of Angels.9867:

In short:
You’ll find players with the right gear / traits, but that doesn’t tell a single bit about SKILL.

*

Adherence to meta convention comes first. Skill comes second.

Meta means a certain mindset. First and foremost for a player to be wanted in a certain group he must have a similar mindset. That’s why adherence to meta is most important.

I’d take the worst zerker over the best PHIW any day of the week.

Obtena.7952:

maha.7902:

This is nothing to do with min-maxing or meta, this is to do with weeding out people who don’t meet your requirements joining your group.

You can already do that with asking them to ping their gear.

once i pinged my zerk gear and wore vitality just to see if anyone would notice. nobody noticed.

Tim.6450:

I’m against this feature for 3 reasons:
1: It is an extra step an inexperienced player has to take: A player who looks at his lfg tool group without knowing about this feature will think that there are no groups and will feel that the content is dead but it isn’t since the groups are hidden by this feature.

2: It makes the play how you want groups far more vulnerable: A player who has this feature activated will enter a a play how you want group, the other players will check his gear and see that he has gear that don’t satisfy their personal desires and they will kick the player faster then the group creator can respond to the kick motion. (before you say this doesn’t happen I had such an occasion with a low lvl who joined my group)

3. I don’t see how this is superior to ping’ing your gear, you could say that he could ping the wrong gear, but it is also reasonably to asssume that you’re not going to check it before every battle, so the troll can switch out somewhere in the dungeon.

1. Is it better that he joins groups and at best gets kicked and in the worst case gets bullied and called names?

2.This isn’t something that doesn’t happen now. It just happens using different indicators such as AP, level and most often AP.

3.It is superior because kicking too many people out of your lfg isn’t really viable. I’ve had swarms of PHIWs join without reading the party description.
It gets old after a while and it prevents you from posting if you’ve kicked too many.

spoj.9672:

chemiclord.3978:

Something that I’ve noticed over these two years is the player base’s insistence on dividing themselves. They want to be able to exclude themselves from whatever segment of the player base they want (be it hard modes to filter out the “casuals”, or gear checks to filter out people who don’t have the “right” gear, or raids to filter out the “noobs” dragging them down, etc…)

I suspect you’re not seeing these tools because the last thing Arena.net has wanted to do is fragment the player base. They don’t want you filtering out swaths of players for whatever reason.

Not giving us the proper tools to avoid players we dont want to play with is exactly what causes all these arguements and toxicity. A fragmented community is healthier so long as there is not too many fragments.

If everyone is forced to play with each other then people of differing opinions collide and hostile behaviour and griefing occurs. This is the case with people disliking path selling or lfg requirements so whenever they see a seller or zerk group on the lfg, instead of ignoring it, they decide to grief or whisper abuse.

I think the problem Arena.net has is that by the very nature of players, it creates that dreaded too many fragments you yourself worry about. Think about all the different suggestions that would fragment the player base that have come through this forum alone.

Gear check.
Hard mode.
Raids.
RP tag.
Open world PvP.
Expansions.

And those are just the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. I’m sure there are others. It’s hard to say, “Oh, a gear check is okay… but we can’t do any of the others because it would fragment the player base too much”… because let’s be honest, everyone who ISN’T a part of that group would be FURIOUSLY kittened off.

I can certainly understand a developer not want to implicitly show favoritism in such a form.

chemiclord.3978:

spoj.9672:

chemiclord.3978:

Something that I’ve noticed over these two years is the player base’s insistence on dividing themselves. They want to be able to exclude themselves from whatever segment of the player base they want (be it hard modes to filter out the “casuals”, or gear checks to filter out people who don’t have the “right” gear, or raids to filter out the “noobs” dragging them down, etc…)

I suspect you’re not seeing these tools because the last thing Arena.net has wanted to do is fragment the player base. They don’t want you filtering out swaths of players for whatever reason.

Not giving us the proper tools to avoid players we dont want to play with is exactly what causes all these arguements and toxicity. A fragmented community is healthier so long as there is not too many fragments.

If everyone is forced to play with each other then people of differing opinions collide and hostile behaviour and griefing occurs. This is the case with people disliking path selling or lfg requirements so whenever they see a seller or zerk group on the lfg, instead of ignoring it, they decide to grief or whisper abuse.

I think the problem Arena.net has is that by the very nature of players, it creates that dreaded too many fragments you yourself worry about. Think about all the different suggestions that would fragment the player base that have come through this forum alone.

Gear check.
Hard mode.
Raids.
RP tag.
Open world PvP.
Expansions.

And those are just the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. I’m sure there are others. It’s hard to say, “Oh, a gear check is okay… but we can’t do any of the others because it would fragment the player base too much”… because let’s be honest, everyone who ISN’T a part of that group would be FURIOUSLY kittened off.

I can certainly understand a developer not want to implicitly show favoritism in such a form.

Then why have different gear, different professions, different races, different weapons? Why not make a single profession with 1 auto attack? There would be NO DIFFERENCES. EQUALITY FOR EVERYONE!

Playerbase “fragmentation” already exists.
those who run meta, and those who won’t.
Allowing us to identify people easier won’t create something which is already there.

@Chemiclord

If a gear check was incorporated like its suggested in the OP then only people who care will notice it. Causing less collisions of opposite players.

The OP’s suggestion is actually a really ingenius way to implement gear checks without affecting people who do not want to be gear checked or join gear check groups.

I sort of agree and disagree with this suggestion, I personally don’t care what stats others in the party use you wanna run soldiers, fine. What I don’t like is when a pug is wearing subpar armour/weapons for example doing a lvl 78 dungeon wearing lvl 20 gear, I find that way too many players using the lfg just want to be carried through the dungeon, Arenanet should never add a way for a player to see other players gear but the lfg should have a built in gear lvl check. Meaning to do a lvl 78 dungeon you have to be wearing at least lvl 78 gear.

1. In a multiplayer game, any system that can be abused will be abused.
2. Potential abuse of a system, depending on the nature of the potential abuse, is not a good reason to withhold implementation of a system. If it were, multiplayer games would have very few systems. The LFG tool itself is rife with abuse. Should it be removed? Kicking is also prone to abuse. Should it be removed?
3. Therefore, implementing a new system in a multiplayer game should be based on whether the potential abuse can be mitigated or at least minimized, and whether the system’s benefits outweigh whatever potential abuse is inherent.
4. Once you understand #3, the conflict should be obvious. One group is enduring LFG abuse now, and is unlikely to experience any negatives. The proposed system would only be a benefit. The other side is not experiencing any negatives related to LFG, so if there is any possibility for the new system to be abused, the proposal could only be a negative.

All that said, I think Chemiclord is correct. ANet likes the idea that we are all just one happy family, and would be reluctant to implement a tool whose purpose would acknowledge that we aren’t. That’s the real hurdle, here.

yolo swaggins.2570:

No, because it is a tool for elitism and I personally do not advocate it.

QFT! They have this in WoW. And I’ve seen people I know personally who can play the game better than most be kicked from groups for having the wrong ring/trinkets. I personally run a zerkerish build. My weapons and accessories are all zerker stats(as needed), but my armor is acended Knights. I find having Knights means I don’t drop when something go’s wrong. I’ve pulled a party from a full wipe because of this. If for some mad resin ANet puts this in. I will never check the box. If anything this will be a trolling tool. Or a tool to discriminate against players.

Have you guys actually read the OP? Its an entirely optional gear check. People can set it so they cannot be gear checked.

spoj.9672:

Have you guys actually read the OP? Its an entirely optional gear check. People can set it so they cannot be gear checked.

It’s no different than having gear check available automatically. You’ll ignore/boot anyone that refuses to check the little box.

spoj.9672:

chemiclord.3978:

Something that I’ve noticed over these two years is the player base’s insistence on dividing themselves. They want to be able to exclude themselves from whatever segment of the player base they want (be it hard modes to filter out the “casuals”, or gear checks to filter out people who don’t have the “right” gear, or raids to filter out the “noobs” dragging them down, etc…)

I suspect you’re not seeing these tools because the last thing Arena.net has wanted to do is fragment the player base. They don’t want you filtering out swaths of players for whatever reason.

Not giving us the proper tools to avoid players we dont want to play with is exactly what causes all these arguements and toxicity. A fragmented community is healthier so long as there is not too many fragments.

If everyone is forced to play with each other then people of differing opinions collide and hostile behaviour and griefing occurs. This is the case with people disliking path selling or lfg requirements so whenever they see a seller or zerk group on the lfg, instead of ignoring it, they decide to grief or whisper abuse. Thank the world for being full of ignorance, intolerence and immaturity.

I could not disagree more. ANets goal is to not bar anyone from any part of the game. It’s some players that want to bar people, for what ever resin that is, be it they feel people are not good enough to play with them or what ever the other resins are. If you want to play with people with the right gear/same mentality, join a guild. That’s what they are there for. That way you’ll have people to play your way with. And if there not online, then you bite the bullet and pug it. I’ve never had a problem with pugs ever. Never been trolled or whispered abuse. And I e played since beta.

This isn’t WoW, though. Full damage gear is very easy to get. It’s so easy to get there’s no excuse to not have it. And if you have it, in instanced PvE, there’s no excuse not to use it.

Rationalizations like “yeah, I contribute a lot less to my team, setting them up for more probable failure, but I am the last man standing and sometimes get to save the day because I set them up to fail” are pretty weak. It’s like justifying a healer guardian that does 10x less DPS than a good build, and justifying it because fights are going to last a long time and people might need healing because of it. Well duh, if you set your team up for a specific mode of failure, they’re more likely to fail via that specific mode. It’s not a strength of what you’re doing, so don’t pretend like it is.

Harper.4173:

I’d take the worst zerker over the best PHIW any day of the week.

If that’s a common approach to grouping in MMOs, that just explains so much…
I don’t want to live on this planet any more.

Neural.1824:

spoj.9672:

Have you guys actually read the OP? Its an entirely optional gear check. People can set it so they cannot be gear checked.

It’s no different than having gear check available automatically. You’ll ignore/boot anyone that refuses to check the little box.

Read the OP. If you don’t check the box, you can’t even see much less join groups that require you to have the box checked. It’s people like you that can’t read simple things that are half of the reason for proposals like this.

Zui.9245:

Neural.1824:

spoj.9672:

Have you guys actually read the OP? Its an entirely optional gear check. People can set it so they cannot be gear checked.

It’s no different than having gear check available automatically. You’ll ignore/boot anyone that refuses to check the little box.

Read the OP. If you don’t check the box, you can’t even see much less join groups that require you to have the box checked. It’s people like you that can’t read simple things that are half of the reason for proposals like this.

Wrong. The fact that the gear check would exist in any form would lead to the toxicity and elitism that those against the idea are talking about. It doesn’t matter how much makeup you put on it.

spoj.9672:

This is the case with people disliking path selling or lfg requirements so whenever they see a seller or zerk group on the lfg, instead of ignoring it, they decide to grief or whisper abuse. Thank the world for being full of ignorance, intolerence and immaturity.

Just so you don’t think phiw are all white and innocent. You grief and you abuse/misuse the lfg and you trashtalk as much as mr. full CoF Armor or captain Eager Beaver the Zerker Reaver, and only because you don’t agree with some lfgs’ descriptions. And no, it’s not about elitism this time, surprise!

You know, I should probably thank dem phiws. By being so abusive, clueless, careless and hateful and overall bad towards me and my friends, they made me a better player: we learned to duo/trio, pushed our limits so we didn’t have to rely on the lfg and on all the lying, cheating ]/&*# plaguing it.
So yeah, thank you.
I also became more toxic, but that happens naturally whenever I lose patience with people. Comes with the package, huh?

What about the others? The players that got abuse from toxic warriors in cof armor because they were playing mace/torch guard in soldiers? The ones that are afraid of being excluded from pug zerk parties? Sure there are many. Toxicity is on both sides, and plenty of it – since the 2 groups keep clashing for no reason other than some half-butted utopy by anet.
Well, here, they’re too busy feeling sorry for themselves because they’re not as wanted as other players geared up with decent equipment.
Boo-hoo.

Carighan.6758:

Harper.4173:

I’d take the worst zerker over the best PHIW any day of the week.

If that’s a common approach to grouping in MMOs, that just explains so much…
I don’t want to live on this planet any more.

Cool – that’s your problem.

The whole idea here is I want to play with similarly minded people because you can change and improve skill levels but you can’t change and improve how people want to play the game.

A bad zerker can be trained, he can become more skilled and knowledgeable and eventually get really good and become an asset to the team.

A good PHIW player isn’t as worth wile for me because even if he’s capped his skill level his mentality and mindset prevent him from becoming the best teammate he could be.
Because he chooses to play the game a different way – a slower and less effective way he’s basically making himself undesirable for me and people who care about efficiency.

He makes a choice – and then I make a choice. Simple as that.

Zui.9245:

This isn’t WoW, though. Full damage gear is very easy to get. It’s so easy to get there’s no excuse to not have it. And if you have it, in instanced PvE, there’s no excuse not to use it.

Rationalizations like “yeah, I contribute a lot less to my team, setting them up for more probable failure, but I am the last man standing and sometimes get to save the day because I set them up to fail” are pretty weak. It’s like justifying a healer guardian that does 10x less DPS than a good build, and justifying it because fights are going to last a long time and people might need healing because of it. Well duh, if you set your team up for a specific mode of failure, they’re more likely to fail via that specific mode. It’s not a strength of what you’re doing, so don’t pretend like it is.

And best DPS will not always win out. Having the right gear is good. Knowing how to play is better. The amount of times I’ve seen players get splattered because they just think every fight is a DPS race is not even funny. And as you said someone who’s just dinged 80 can buy what they need from the TP. A British army saying fits well here, all the gear, no idea.

I think its a good idea but I don’t see anet adding it.

They have never even acknowledged the zerker meta, and seem preoccupied adding things like nomad gear to the game…

Neural.1824:

Zui.9245:

Neural.1824:

spoj.9672:

Have you guys actually read the OP? Its an entirely optional gear check. People can set it so they cannot be gear checked.

It’s no different than having gear check available automatically. You’ll ignore/boot anyone that refuses to check the little box.

Read the OP. If you don’t check the box, you can’t even see much less join groups that require you to have the box checked. It’s people like you that can’t read simple things that are half of the reason for proposals like this.

Wrong. The fact that the gear check would exist in any form would lead to the toxicity and elitism that those against the idea are talking about. It doesn’t matter how much makeup you put on it.

I said this earlier but my post is now gone. Anyone who is against this idea on the grounds that it would cause “elitism” is someone who feels entitled to be carried by his or her superiors.

Neural.1824:

spoj.9672:

Have you guys actually read the OP? Its an entirely optional gear check. People can set it so they cannot be gear checked.

It’s no different than having gear check available automatically. You’ll ignore/boot anyone that refuses to check the little box.

Even if you create a group with description “anyone welcome / no zerker needed”?

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Neural.1824:

Zui.9245:

Neural.1824:

spoj.9672:

Have you guys actually read the OP? Its an entirely optional gear check. People can set it so they cannot be gear checked.

It’s no different than having gear check available automatically. You’ll ignore/boot anyone that refuses to check the little box.

Read the OP. If you don’t check the box, you can’t even see much less join groups that require you to have the box checked. It’s people like you that can’t read simple things that are half of the reason for proposals like this.

Wrong. The fact that the gear check would exist in any form would lead to the toxicity and elitism that those against the idea are talking about. It doesn’t matter how much makeup you put on it.

I said this earlier but my post is now gone. Anyone who is against this idea on the grounds that it would cause “elitism” is someone who feels entitled to be carried by his or her superiors.

Your assumption that you are by default superior because you use x type of gear is a perfect example of the very “elitism” you pretend wouldn’t happen.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Zui.9245:

This isn’t WoW, though. Full damage gear is very easy to get. It’s so easy to get there’s no excuse to not have it. And if you have it, in instanced PvE, there’s no excuse not to use it.

Rationalizations like “yeah, I contribute a lot less to my team, setting them up for more probable failure, but I am the last man standing and sometimes get to save the day because I set them up to fail” are pretty weak. It’s like justifying a healer guardian that does 10x less DPS than a good build, and justifying it because fights are going to last a long time and people might need healing because of it. Well duh, if you set your team up for a specific mode of failure, they’re more likely to fail via that specific mode. It’s not a strength of what you’re doing, so don’t pretend like it is.

And best DPS will not always win out. Having the right gear is good. Knowing how to play is better. The amount of times I’ve seen players get splattered because they just think every fight is a DPS race is not even funny. And as you said someone who’s just dinged 80 can buy what they need from the TP. A British army saying fits well here, all the gear, no idea.

So if I want efficient runs, I need people who know how to play and who are appropriately geared and built for instanced PvE. These things all correlate with each other, since if you know what gear is good and actually got it, you are likely to have at least researched what good builds are, how to use them, and what the mechanics of the dungeon actually are.

If I can definitely get someone who is appropriately geared for instanced PvE, I am more likely to get someone who is has appropriate traits and has some idea how to play the game.

Can you explain why I should rather take someone who is “unknown” on every front versus someone who is a “known good” on one front and “unknown” on the other two, when I am looking for an efficient run?

Talyn.3295:

Dalanor.5387:

Why i have the weird feeling after reading the replies that those who don’t agree with the OP didn’t actually read the first post … ?

You and me both

I read it, I really did.

Since the discussion in this thread has derailed and is no longer constructive this thread is now closed.