Guild Wars 2

Brother Grimm.5176:

The ONLY reason I take AP in any way serious is when actual REWARDS were introduced with them. Before that, I never even looked at them. Just don’t care about the “number” as it’s only indicative of how much time someone has invested in the game and will tell you nothing about how well they play and certainly not how well they will play in any given activity or mode.

Anyone that thinks the AP number directly relates to skill in-game is simply delusional.

I agree. I have a lot of AP from LS1, but I did those achievements to get the meta rewards not for the AP. The AP is just a bonus. Anyone who played LS1 is going to have a truckload of AP from those events.

I also have a lot of AP from killing so many different things with so many different weapons, from doing the occasional JP, from dailies, PS, exploration, etc. None of these I did for the AP.

Now that there are no meta rewards from LS achievements I am not really doing them.

Lady Celtaine.3760:

FrostSpectre.4198:

Lady Celtaine.3760:

Out of interest how long have you been playing?

695 days…

How many hours is that accross all characters over those 695 days when you type /age?

I’m going to guess your AP is pretty reasonable, and towards the high end of what I’d call the average range of time played vs AP accumulated.

I did forgot to mention that I also had half-year pause…

3,240 hours played.

As someone that has nearly 18k AP…

AP doesn’t mean jack squat other than how much content you completed, how diversified your game play is, and how often you play.

I always laugh when I see people require a minimum AP for anything such as speed runs…. for someone like myself that doesn’t have a clue how to speed run any dungeon because its not my cup of tea, would easily meet that requirement a few times over and not have the path memorized like they would expect.

It is not a measurement of skill or grasp of mechanics in any way what so ever. You can be totally terrible at this game and have as much or more AP as I do. With the exception of maybe a few cheeves like the gauntlet ones and SAB. Achievements are very trivial hoops to jump through you can do without ever needing to do much as far as build preparation and skilled play goes.

Its really just points to keep players that like to have something to progress playing… nothing more nothing less…

Harper.4173:

Let’s clear something up about AP.

AP is not about player skill. It is not about experience.

AP in my opinion measures how seriously you take this game

Actually for a large part AP is much more about how much free time you have on your hands than it is about dedication.

You can take Guild Wars as serious as kitten, but if you don’t have hours to spend on grinding AP (if you call that dedication to begin with), then it ain’t gonna happen.

I do admit the new LS achievements have improved the old formula.

The combo solution is the best. There is a bare minimum amount of AP almost anyone would be willing to accept without assuming it’s going to be a student/teacher type run. Let’s arbitrarily say it’s 2k. I also list gear pings and meta build requirements in my LFGs. I don’t only want someone who is hardcore in to the game with 25k AP, I also want someone is knows the meta and understands why berserker’s is being requested of them.

It’s really just shorthand for “I want to play with people like me”. I don’t want to play with you, staff cleric’s guardian, we would not be friends. Why people insist on forcing themselves in to not like-minded groups is beyond me.

Wow, so much needless hate in this thread…

Guys, the situation seems clear to me: AP is definitely not a measure of skill. However, having high AP means you actually did something in this game, and that you came in contact with its mechanics and shenanigans and so you have some experience with it; therefore, a player with higher AP is likely to play better than someone with less. This is only an assumption that one makes because one has no other way of telling who is better, so one makes it based on what one has. In no way, shape or form is this a guarantee, but it’s the only thing you have when deciding which complete stranger to accept: the one who seems experienced or the one who does not. I will always chose the player with the most AP if I don’t have anything else to go on, it’s only logical.

I have done my share of teaching in this game but I generally preffer to play with “elitists” because I simply don’t have the time to both play the content I want to play and teach others, I can only spare 2-3 hours a day for this game and I want to get the most bang for my buck. Besides, most of the times newer players are very clingy and the experience turns sour for the teacher due to the endless stream of questions that the newer player could simply answer for himself if he spent a little time on the wiki or used some common sense.

Behellagh.1468:

It means that you’re probably going to have invested enough time to be up to date with the latest builds, have ascended/legendary gear, and generally played through most of the game lots of times.

I have over 7,500 AP. I don’t know a thing about builds. I picked traits that I understood what they did, not how well they may interact with each other or other character builds. I have three trait lines at Tier 2 and one at Tier 1. That means I don’t have 2 at Tier 3 thus my build is “broken” by current standards.

I don’t care. It works well enough for me soloing PvE.

And I don’t have any ascended gear. Again, Exotic is good enough for soloing PvE. I don’t do fractals (at all), don’t do dungeons (often), don’t do PvP (at all) and only occasionally, when working toward map complete, do WvW.

So your “assumption” of what a high AP means simply doesn’t apply to me and I don’t think I’m unique or rare in this regard. Fear us you hard core fanatics. The dedicated “casual” player.

I’m sorry to say but at 7.5k AP isn’t what I would consider “high AP”.
Sure – it’s better than 2k but personally given the 2 years the game has been going I make my cut-off value at around 10-12k.

Rauderi.8706:

Behellagh.1468:

It means that you’re probably going to have invested enough time to be up to date with the latest builds, have ascended/legendary gear, and generally played through most of the game lots of times.

I have over 7,500 AP. I don’t know a thing about builds. I picked traits that I understood what they did, not how well they may interact with each other or other character builds. I have three trait lines at Tier 2 and one at Tier 1. That means I don’t have 2 at Tier 3 thus my build is “broken” by current standards.

I don’t care. It works well enough for me soloing PvE.

And I don’t have any ascended gear. Again, Exotic is good enough for soloing PvE. I don’t do fractals (at all), don’t do dungeons (often), don’t do PvP (at all) and only occasionally, when working toward map complete, do WvW.

So your “assumption” of what a high AP means simply doesn’t apply to me and I don’t think I’m unique or rare in this regard. Fear us you hard core fanatics. The dedicated “casual” player.

Unfortunately, OP isn’t interested in actually providing numbers, just anecdotes. Anyone out there doing double-blind studies on whether AP is a valid measure of this, hitherto undefined, “skill” which isn’t about speed runs, yet totally is?

Skill should not be correlated with the “fast dungeon runs” since fast dungeon runs don’t only take skill.
-
In this case getting the loot in the fastest possible way.

I would (unsarcastically) actually be interested to see methodology and metrics.
A group of 4 can steadily run dungeons, taking any person that comes along. One measures AP, another takes note of gear. Particular dungeon and path familiarity is asked. Poll about build and meta-adherence. Mark uncooperative responses as such, and note any ragequits. Take count of dungeon clear times.

As much as I loathe this kind of backhanded elitism, if AP is actually a metric, instead of wishful thinking and rosy nostalgia of good runs, I am curious how the evidence would actually stack up.
And then we can have that as reference, instead of seeing the same unsupported arguments over and over again, once every other week or so, about whether AP is or is not fair.

And again, common sense, time:
If someone’s using AP as a limiter, you probably don’t want their group anyway.
If you want a group that isn’t listed in LFG, make one.
To all: Be clear about your requirements when making a group.

That’s it. Seriously. AP, yea or nay, doesn’t need defending.

I agree with you – hard data would be ideal – however I lack the manpower and time resources to make such a thing happen.

Ultimately I believe there is some truth to what I’ve said or explained – since it is the current system that has appeared.
If AP really didn’t have any bearing on these matters – it wouldn’t be used by people in the way we see now.

Also the end part of your post is exactly what I’ve been trying to tell people.

Stop caring about AP – it’s just people trying to play with other people more like themselves. If that’s not you make your own group.

Fyrebrand.4859:

Harper.4173:

And how do you determine if the player is “decent” or not?

The more important question isn’t how, but when. Do you determine if they are a good player before playing with them, or after?

If you are that serious about keeping a certain degree of efficiency in your dungeon runs, and you’re not even willing to risk playing with someone who may not be up to your standard, then you should make an effort to explore long-term solutions. Join an organized guild, or take a few chances on random folks and add the good ones to your Friends list to reference later. This is how people do it.

You know the phrase “beggars can’t be choosers”? This is the attitude you should have in PUGs. Let’s be honest, you are using LFG because you’re unable to scrape together a group manually. You are asking others to reach out to you, then shooing them away without knowing anything about them, on the assumption that they don’t take the game “seriously enough” for you.

I agree with you about the guild part – but I play random hours depending on my schedule that day and I can’t always have 4 people all set and ready to go every time I catch a few hours to do dugenons/fractals/whatnot.

That would be ideal – but with the schedule I’ve got it’s very hard to do.

Your “beggars can’t be choosers” example is wrong. I see no reason I shouldn’t find decent people on the LFG tool.
I’m not asking anyone to “reach out to me” – I’m making a statement : I want to do this run fast and I want people that know how to do it and that have done it hundreds of times before to go with me so we get it done fast.

If they don’t seem to fit that description I’ll “shoo them away” because they could have at least not joined if they knew they didn’t match the criteria I asked for.

I’ve never understood this.

I’ve yet to understand why people would join a run that requires “x amount of AP” if they don’t have it.
I’ve seen groups asking for AP values I didn’t have – did I join ? No. Why? because those people weren’t looking for me and it was a common courtesy not to waste their time.

If you saw an add on a building saying " Hiring – need an experienced baker" why would you even go in if you’re not an experienced baker? Or even a baker.

nexxe.7081:

Uhh, not necessarily. I have over 5k and have never stepped foot inside an explorable dungeon. I don’t have full exotics, crafting professions maxed, low WvW ranks and abilities, low-ranked SPvP, etc. Achievement points are easy to get without even trying.

Again you assume 5k – but nobody said anything about what numbers are used.
Yes I’m very well aware 5k is easy to get. That’s why – like I stated above the limit I use personally is 10-12k.

And experience has taught me that you don’t get to 12k AP without being at least decent at dungeons.

Evans.6347:

Harper.4173:

Let’s clear something up about AP.

AP is not about player skill. It is not about experience.

AP in my opinion measures how seriously you take this game

Actually for a large part AP is much more about how much free time you have on your hands than it is about dedication.

You can take Guild Wars as serious as kitten, but if you don’t have hours to spend on grinding AP (if you call that dedication to begin with), then it ain’t gonna happen.

I do admit the new LS achievements have improved the old formula.

So if you don’t have free time to play the game then how are you going to become that person that knows the content by heart and that people want in their groups?

It still holds up – either you don’t have the time or don’t want to bother and take it seriously but in the end it’s still the same result – there s a bigger chance you’re inexperienced.

FrostSpectre.4198:

• I have crafted a single Ascended weapon for a skin, got a ascended gear box and 2 random trinkets as drop while doing stuff on open-PvE, after Megaservers. I just sold these items to merchant for 1 gold each.

No offense, but if you’re going to want to keep doing fractals beyond a certain point, you’re going to need to get over your aversion to ascended tier equipment. You arent going to find groups willing to carry someone who drops dead from agony-inflicting attacks from bosses every few seconds. They’ll boot you in a heartbeat and be perfectly willing to accept one of the more despised classes for fractals in your place.

And Vol, if you’re after a speed run, then state as much. AP isnt going to get you someone who can do speedruns. And I’d argue that someone with 2k AP who’s done the research on speedruns for whatever dungeon you’re in is much more preferred than someone who just decided to pick your party and only manages to meet the AP requirement.

Harper.4173:

Evans.6347:

Harper.4173:

Let’s clear something up about AP.

AP is not about player skill. It is not about experience.

AP in my opinion measures how seriously you take this game

Actually for a large part AP is much more about how much free time you have on your hands than it is about dedication.

You can take Guild Wars as serious as kitten, but if you don’t have hours to spend on grinding AP (if you call that dedication to begin with), then it ain’t gonna happen.

I do admit the new LS achievements have improved the old formula.

So if you don’t have free time to play the game then how are you going to become that person that knows the content by heart and that people want in their groups?

It still holds up – either you don’t have the time or don’t want to bother and take it seriously but in the end it’s still the same result – there s a bigger chance you’re inexperienced.

I can finish the main story with my chosen profession and then repeat Ascalonian Catacombs hundreds of times in my theoretical ample free time. As a result, I would be more knowledgeable about AC than most of the “experienced” people forming parties, but only have a couple hundred of AP.

It’s not a measure of skill or dedication, but of time spent. Often, these are connected, but that’s not always true.

Someone who has a lot of AP has played a fair amount of hours. That’s the only real conclusion you can make.

AP says nothing. I have two accounts and on one I have something like 1k and the other 10k so when people see me on the 1k account and use the AP as experience indicator they will be completely wrong. I’ve also never bothered to actively get achievements. I only get them as I do things or if I feel like doing one specifically.

But the amount of time I spend on the game will be more similar to those who got 15k/20k. So I never use AP as an indicator. I look at how well people play the game or at least appear to know what they are doing.

There will be exceptions to every rule. I love how people jump on OP like he’s some selfish jerk trying to glorify AP.

I’m sure there are people with high AP that are bad, but I’ve never come across someone like that personally, just like I’m sure there are people with low AP that are fantastic, but we aren’t talking about the exceptions here. We are talking about AP as a general metric and more often than not someone with high AP will know what the heck they are doing. To say the contrary is just blatantly wrong.

Source: I play the game.

I’m still not seeing the point of this thread in the first place.
AP-gating is a flimsy methodology, but people are going to use it. There’s enough anecdotes that say “it works okay; it’s the best we have” and “lol 18k AP no dungeons.” So, conceptually, it’s a wash.

I don’t even disagree with some of the conceptual steps: AP correlates to time in game, time in game correlates to experience, experience correlates to skill, if the time invested is spent in challenging situations instead of routine execution. (I really should find and link the actual study for that last part, hm.) I merely disagree with the notion of its utility, when there are other measures that are used (gear, build, stated experience).

Tman kinda hit the nail on the head. There’s sufficient blowback against AP-gating that, somewhere out there, someone felt the need to defend it. Which means there is some discontent and cognitive dissonance.
Is it about assuaging guilt for perceived offenses? Feeling rejected by the general population for being exclusionary, an outsider? It is, by and large, not on the side of social acceptability.

And I wonder how much of the kittenhurt could be eased if people would just use the word “please”. Zerk, experienced only pls comes across a little better than 10kAP ZERK PING WAR/MES ONLY. Though I suppose the addition of all-caps is a bit hyperbole. Kind of.

The issue with builds and gear is that you can’t have people ping their build ( traits) and gear – they can ping any gear and wear other gear.
This doesn’t work because it’s not something you can check. Sure it would be great if we had this option but we don’t.

I understand that the methodology is flimsy – but like I said – we have nothing better.
And because of people’s inability to put in the effort to be better at the game we won’t have anything better.

The moment builds and gear could be checked every casual and inexperienced player would flood the forums demanding it was taken out.

The way I see it – just log on to a carry class and take on whoever. AP, “no noobs”, “experienced only”, it all means nothing – if noobs want to, they’ll sneak in and try to leech. You’ll get people with weird (i.e. they’re bad) interpretations of “experienced” trying to join your groups, you’ll get people with high AP who suck. I’ve had a guildie get some 18k AP ele who didn’t even know what FGS was, I had dungeon world records when I was <5k AP.

You’ll spend more time filtering out undesirables than if you just took the first four you got (maybe just make an “experienced, meta builds only” group) and then kicked people who sucked.

I dunno. If I want to play with experienced people, I play with guildies, pugs will never even be close to the calibre which we play at in guild so I don’t expect it. AP I just find a poor metric not worth using. There was a chance of us being able to show each other traits (the topic was about being able to save builds) but a bunch of people started crying saying there would probably be trait checks so ANet decided against it.

The way I see it though – if you’re actually experienced it doesn’t matter who you get, you’ll be able to pull your weight and get any party through. If you’re going to sit, waiting for experienced players it just shows you’re not as good as you think you are and you feel you need carrying.

I understand what you’re saying – guildies are always better for me as well but regarding the carrying and pulling my weight and getting the party through – I disagree with you there.

I dislike carrying people – not that I can’t do it but I dislike doing it and don’t want to.
It’s a principle.
If there’s 4 of us and the 5th man is very bad and we have to carry him – I’d rather kick and replace.

If you want to complete content you should at least be decent at it and not rely on others to carry you through.
By carrying others you’re fostering this sort of behavior. People should improve themselves. Or at least try to.

Carrying them won’t help.

Harper.4173:

The issue with builds and gear is that you can’t have people ping their build ( traits) and gear – they can ping any gear and wear other gear.
This doesn’t work because it’s not something you can check. Sure it would be great if we had this option but we don’t.

Gods I hope we don’t get a feature like that because then the elitists would make sure that noone but other elites can join their PUGs and most PUGs, from the LFG comments appear to be elitists already.

You want dungeons to be challenging, PUG with a group of newbies and show them the ropes, which doesn’t mean shout follow me and disappear down an not so obvious path.

Behellagh.1468:

Harper.4173:

The issue with builds and gear is that you can’t have people ping their build ( traits) and gear – they can ping any gear and wear other gear.
This doesn’t work because it’s not something you can check. Sure it would be great if we had this option but we don’t.

Gods I hope we don’t get a feature like that because then the elitists would make sure that noone but other elites can join their PUGs and most PUGs, from the LFG comments appear to be elitists already.

You want dungeons to be challenging, PUG with a group of newbies and show them the ropes, which doesn’t mean shout follow me and disappear down an not so obvious path.

Elitists like that don’t want a challenge, they want easy mode. If they actually wanted challenge, they would actually do what you suggested in your second paragraph.

Harper, I think you’re suffering from a form of myopia. You tend to associate a lot of AP with players you know who have been dedicated to the game and who happen to be good players because that’s the sort of people you’ve associated with. If you’d looked at it from someone else’s perspective, you might have found a bunch of people who garnered a ton of AP without the rest of what goes along with your idea of what constitutes a “good” player. Looking at it dispassionately, it does not take a lot of skill to get a lot of AP, it just takes a bunch of time.

After the nth time this same topic pops up, can’t we all just conclude that:

1. Just because someone has very high AP doesn’t mean it’s a guarantee that they’ll be skilled. It’s just someone been grinding AP for a while.

2. However, very low AP can be a red flag if you’re doing challenging, end-game content. Say you have a 4/5 group looking for a fifth in a Fractals 50 Swamp. You post on LFG and a guardian with 1200 AP joins. Everyone’s going to be like “ummm…this guy probably won’t have enough AR”.

Behellagh.1468:

Harper.4173:

The issue with builds and gear is that you can’t have people ping their build ( traits) and gear – they can ping any gear and wear other gear.
This doesn’t work because it’s not something you can check. Sure it would be great if we had this option but we don’t.

Gods I hope we don’t get a feature like that because then the elitists would make sure that noone but other elites can join their PUGs and most PUGs, from the LFG comments appear to be elitists already.

You want dungeons to be challenging, PUG with a group of newbies and show them the ropes, which doesn’t mean shout follow me and disappear down an not so obvious path.

I disagree with your logic. If you see a LFG post asking for a specific build (especially if it’s a build you don’t agree with), why would you still join them? You have just as much freedom to start your very own group with your own specifications. I would never join a group on LFG asking specifically for “shout heal warrior” or “water field ele”.

The only people who don’t want gear checks are those with something to hide. Those who want to sneak into “Meta only” groups and expect to be carried. These people, I believe, know in their heart of hearts how bad their non-meta builds are so they’d never want to play with other non-meta players themselves. They, however, want to be unique snowflakes in what they perceive to be a world full of cookie cutter meta builds, refuse to “conform”, then try to sneak into meta groups because they secretly admit that meta is the best way of going about in GW2.

With gear inspections, honest non-meta players are just as free to start their own groups, inspect people who join and kick out players with meta builds.

Harper.4173:

nexxe.7081:

Uhh, not necessarily. I have over 5k and have never stepped foot inside an explorable dungeon. I don’t have full exotics, crafting professions maxed, low WvW ranks and abilities, low-ranked SPvP, etc. Achievement points are easy to get without even trying.

Again you assume 5k – but nobody said anything about what numbers are used.
Yes I’m very well aware 5k is easy to get. That’s why – like I stated above the limit I use personally is 10-12k.

And experience has taught me that you don’t get to 12k AP without being at least decent at dungeons.

Dungeons are directly responsible for maybe a few hundred AP. Just doing minimal dailies and monthlies since launch is responsible for about 5000 APs. Your metrics and logic are both very flawed. I know plenty of people closing in on 20k APs who’ve never set foot in a dungeon. I know others with less than 2500 that can run every path in their sleep. I’m just over 8500 so I wouldn’t get to be a part of your ‘leet squad’ (lmao…yeah right tool) but I almost exclusively run dungeons apart from my four PvP ‘Champion’ titles. 10-12k lol…I read that as “I’m an ignorant clown”.

Darthaemos.6370:

Behellagh.1468:

Harper.4173:

The issue with builds and gear is that you can’t have people ping their build ( traits) and gear – they can ping any gear and wear other gear.
This doesn’t work because it’s not something you can check. Sure it would be great if we had this option but we don’t.

Gods I hope we don’t get a feature like that because then the elitists would make sure that noone but other elites can join their PUGs and most PUGs, from the LFG comments appear to be elitists already.

You want dungeons to be challenging, PUG with a group of newbies and show them the ropes, which doesn’t mean shout follow me and disappear down an not so obvious path.

I disagree with your logic. If you see a LFG post asking for a specific build (especially if it’s a build you don’t agree with), why would you still join them? You have just as much freedom to start your very own group with your own specifications. I would never join a group on LFG asking specifically for “shout heal warrior” or “water field ele”.

I wouldn’t join but that’s what everyone is asking for. And even if they don’t the questions come after you join followed by a swift kick if you don’t meet their standard. Sure I can start my own LFG asking for anyone and I have but then I get kicked because the players who join decide among themselves that I’m not good enough. Of course this is before starting the dungeon so they go in and I’m still in the lobby like a dismissed date because cooler friends showed up.

So dungeons and fractals, which require teaming, is becoming increasingly difficult for new players to participate in because of those who are only seeking the “elite”. If it wasn’t for my guildies I wouldn’t have done most of the dungeons I have done.

I’m upset at the exclusionary culture that has built up around fractal and dungeon runs so I’m against any and all tools to make that easier. For a game that is so co-op in nature to be so discriminatory in a few areas because of player attitudes, grate on me.

Harper.4173:

nexxe.7081:

Uhh, not necessarily. I have over 5k and have never stepped foot inside an explorable dungeon. I don’t have full exotics, crafting professions maxed, low WvW ranks and abilities, low-ranked SPvP, etc. Achievement points are easy to get without even trying.

Again you assume 5k – but nobody said anything about what numbers are used.
Yes I’m very well aware 5k is easy to get. That’s why – like I stated above the limit I use personally is 10-12k.

And experience has taught me that you don’t get to 12k AP without being at least decent at dungeons.

I’m at 6.5k ap and I’d wager that I’m a more skilled player than you are. AP means absolutely nothing except that you’ve spent time farming AP, which takes little skill. The reason my AP is lower is because achievements are boring. I’m not gonna spend all the hours needed to farm a few legendaries for ap, I’m not going to buy all the cultural gear for AP, nor will I grind content to get AP. There is zero fun in AP for me so I don’t aim to get them. Most achievements can basically be done by facerolling the content without ever even needing to dodge and that’s what you’re basing your standards on?

High AP =/ skilled player
Low AP =/ unskilled player

I just assume that anyone who posts an LFG with an AP requirement is inept and I refuse to play with them.

I may as well, considering they’re the idiots that assume AP == skill.

High number of AP does NOT mean high capacity of the player .. but it means high experience .. which is a different thing … it means that the player knows (99% of cases) what to do without running the risk of having a person who is not a team know what to do.

Harper.4173:

I understand what you’re saying – guildies are always better for me as well but regarding the carrying and pulling my weight and getting the party through – I disagree with you there.

I dislike carrying people – not that I can’t do it but I dislike doing it and don’t want to.
It’s a principle.
If there’s 4 of us and the 5th man is very bad and we have to carry him – I’d rather kick and replace.

If you want to complete content you should at least be decent at it and not rely on others to carry you through.
By carrying others you’re fostering this sort of behavior. People should improve themselves. Or at least try to.

Carrying them won’t help.

that’s fair enough. I honestly just think you’re setting yourself up for disappointment trying to get like minded players through the lfg. I mean the way I see it with dungeons, you have newbies who have never done it before, bad players who have done it before but continue to be bad, you have tryhards (“noob = KICK” types) who think they’re good but they’re actually nothing special, and then you have the actual experienced players – an extreme minority since most are playing in their guilds and it’s just rare occurrences like me who suffer from pug masochism – like I can say the amount of times I’ve laughed or rolled my eyes at groups being bad far exceeds the amount I’ve been impressed by their skill, getting experienced players is honestly just so rare. So I feel it’s best to just pug and have no standards, that way you’re not disappointed when they suck but then you’re impressed when they’re good.

Players who speedrun, has a minimum AP rule, LFG Zerkers only or more stuff like this ruins the fun for me. Therefore I do not group with them. If I happen to join a group and I suddenly get a question about my AP even though I got 13k, I will leave.
If you like the minimum AP rule fine by me but remember you can’t get 4k-5k by doing dungeons only so even if you have 5k AP it does not mean he/she is good at dungeons. Open world, WvW, sPvP, JP’s and LS’s is very different playstyle than dungeons and some speedrunners and elitists has even some special stackpoints and skip parts wich some players (Like me) have never heard of.

I only accept people with 20k AP.

I’m currently sitting at >10K AP.

When I enter a dungeon group, if the other 4 players’ AP added up doesn’t exceed mine, I kick players starting with the lowest until it does.

As I gain more and more experience, I have less and less tolerance to failure due to noob-ness.

Just kidding. XD

(The thought crossed my mind once when I was grouped with a very bad PUG).

Comparing 10k+ to 4k+ AP is a pretty ridiculous metric. Both players have the necessary experience. If you’re looking for someone who knows all the tricks of the speed running trade, make a guild for it. If you’re looking for players that farm all the AP boosting events they can, make a guild for it. If you’re looking for players that can bust up a zerg in wvw, make a guild for it. If you’re looking for players that do all 3, expect mistakes and don’t be a kitten about it.

Behellagh.1468:

Harper.4173:

The issue with builds and gear is that you can’t have people ping their build ( traits) and gear – they can ping any gear and wear other gear.
This doesn’t work because it’s not something you can check. Sure it would be great if we had this option but we don’t.

Gods I hope we don’t get a feature like that because then the elitists would make sure that noone but other elites can join their PUGs and most PUGs, from the LFG comments appear to be elitists already.

You want dungeons to be challenging, PUG with a group of newbies and show them the ropes, which doesn’t mean shout follow me and disappear down an not so obvious path.

I don’t want dungeons to be challenging – I want them to be quick and easy so I can get my loot fast.

Also the feature you say would be " so terrible " wouldn’t actually be that bad. Think about it:

If only elitists could join elitist pugs then the “non-elitist” players would be spared a lot of abuse and trouble and they could just make their own groups and go on their own.

That is assuming they want to do the dungeons with people who are/think like them and not just get carried by “elitist scum” for easy rewards.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Harper, I think you’re suffering from a form of myopia. You tend to associate a lot of AP with players you know who have been dedicated to the game and who happen to be good players because that’s the sort of people you’ve associated with. If you’d looked at it from someone else’s perspective, you might have found a bunch of people who garnered a ton of AP without the rest of what goes along with your idea of what constitutes a “good” player. Looking at it dispassionately, it does not take a lot of skill to get a lot of AP, it just takes a bunch of time.

Sure – but at least I know those people have that time to put in the game.
Or that they care enough about the game to put in that time.

So there’s a higher chance they’ll be good at something they spend a lot of time on and care about.

Some data and assumptions are better than no data.

Tman.6349:

Harper.4173:

nexxe.7081:

Uhh, not necessarily. I have over 5k and have never stepped foot inside an explorable dungeon. I don’t have full exotics, crafting professions maxed, low WvW ranks and abilities, low-ranked SPvP, etc. Achievement points are easy to get without even trying.

Again you assume 5k – but nobody said anything about what numbers are used.
Yes I’m very well aware 5k is easy to get. That’s why – like I stated above the limit I use personally is 10-12k.

And experience has taught me that you don’t get to 12k AP without being at least decent at dungeons.

Dungeons are directly responsible for maybe a few hundred AP. Just doing minimal dailies and monthlies since launch is responsible for about 5000 APs. Your metrics and logic are both very flawed. I know plenty of people closing in on 20k APs who’ve never set foot in a dungeon. I know others with less than 2500 that can run every path in their sleep. I’m just over 8500 so I wouldn’t get to be a part of your ‘leet squad’ (lmao…yeah right tool) but I almost exclusively run dungeons apart from my four PvP ‘Champion’ titles. 10-12k lol…I read that as “I’m an ignorant clown”.

Again.

I like how you like to resort to insults. But there’s no need for that.

AP means that people have that time to put in the game.
Or that they care enough about the game to put in that time.
So there’s a higher chance they’ll be good at something they spend a lot of time on and care about.

I find all this amusing. What happens is this. Players form more and more elitist groups to avoid having to teach new players/less experienced the ropes so that they can complete in the least time possible. This carries on for a while, then the most experienced get bored of this aspect of the game and move on, leaving a smaller and smaller pool of ‘elite’ players, who become more and more vocal about the lack of experienced players.

Guess what? They are complaining about something they themselves helped create. If you are forming pug groups, be willing to take longer and have to train up new people- occassionally you will find a real gem who in a few runs becomes better than you could ever hope to be.

If you want elite runs then join a dungeon running guild as one of your guilds or form one so you can play with the people that suit your style. Don’t expect to be able to form the perfect group from a bunch of pugs.

Using AP as a measure of whether someone will be any good is a bit like using height to measure whether they can wash my car the best. They could play bearbow for their 18k AP and then be joining your group on a zerk built warrior that they have played for 3 days.

AP doesn’t measure skill, and certainly not skill at a certain build/profession in a dungeon instance. The only thing high AP tells you about a players is that they chase AP- which reminds me of all the free kills we got when AP farmers came to WvW with their legendaries and shiny gears. Did having a high AP make them better at playing in wvw? Nope.

Purple Miku.7032:

I just assume that anyone who posts an LFG with an AP requirement is inept and I refuse to play with them.

I may as well, considering they’re the idiots that assume AP == skill.

Have you actually tried to understand what I’ve been posting ?

That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to explain. It does not equal skill.

Read my posts above. It might help.

A player with a ton of AP has a lot of irrelevant experience. For all you know you could be hiring a plumber to bake a wedding cake based on how much cash in their wallet.

I do get the point of finding like-minded players, but it sounds like you’re applying this to pugs that you don’t stay in contact with anyways.

Harper.4173:

Behellagh.1468:

Harper.4173:

The issue with builds and gear is that you can’t have people ping their build ( traits) and gear – they can ping any gear and wear other gear.
This doesn’t work because it’s not something you can check. Sure it would be great if we had this option but we don’t.

Gods I hope we don’t get a feature like that because then the elitists would make sure that noone but other elites can join their PUGs and most PUGs, from the LFG comments appear to be elitists already.

You want dungeons to be challenging, PUG with a group of newbies and show them the ropes, which doesn’t mean shout follow me and disappear down an not so obvious path.

-snip-

Also the feature you say would be " so terrible " wouldn’t actually be that bad. Think about it:

If only elitists could join elitist pugs then the “non-elitist” players would be spared a lot of abuse and trouble and they could just make their own groups and go on their own.

That is assuming they want to do the dungeons with people who are/think like them and not just get carried by “elitist scum” for easy rewards.

Quoted for truth.

Also, that feature already exists in PvP in spectate mode so I really don’t see how it would be that hard to implement…

Victory.2879:

They are complaining about something they themselves helped create. If you are forming pug groups, be willing to take longer and have to train up new people- occassionally you will find a real gem who in a few runs becomes better than you could ever hope to be.

Fast dungeon runs don’t require skill, they require people running meta builds in berserker gear and doing cohesive meta tactics. It doesn’t matter how good the player is, if they aren’t already in berserker gear, they are not going to wear it no matter how much you try to ‘teach them the dungeon path’.

The one exception might be if you had 4 people in berserker gear taking a guy who ran dungeons a whole lot in PVT or condi gear. When he sees the overwhelming speed and ease difference, it might open his eyes. But your typical PUG will see a group doing well and assume him and his tanky PVT is the reason why, and not the 4 berserker eles.

There is nothing you can say to someone to convince them to abandon tanky gear; they need to come to the conclusion on their own, much like creationists have to dig themselves out of that without the help of others. You can’t logic a “creationist” to start wearing berserker gear. So teaching PUGs is not usually worth anyone’s time.

Victory.2879:

I find all this amusing. What happens is this. Players form more and more elitist groups to avoid having to teach new players/less experienced the ropes so that they can complete in the least time possible. This carries on for a while, then the most experienced get bored of this aspect of the game and move on, leaving a smaller and smaller pool of ‘elite’ players, who become more and more vocal about the lack of experienced players.

Guess what? They are complaining about something they themselves helped create. If you are forming pug groups, be willing to take longer and have to train up new people- occassionally you will find a real gem who in a few runs becomes better than you could ever hope to be.

If you want elite runs then join a dungeon running guild as one of your guilds or form one so you can play with the people that suit your style. Don’t expect to be able to form the perfect group from a bunch of pugs.

Using AP as a measure of whether someone will be any good is a bit like using height to measure whether they can wash my car the best. They could play bearbow for their 18k AP and then be joining your group on a zerk built warrior that they have played for 3 days.

AP doesn’t measure skill, and certainly not skill at a certain build/profession in a dungeon instance. The only thing high AP tells you about a players is that they chase AP- which reminds me of all the free kills we got when AP farmers came to WvW with their legendaries and shiny gears. Did having a high AP make them better at playing in wvw? Nope.

Fantastic insight, Victory.

Fluffball.8307:

So teaching PUGs is not usually worth anyone’s time.

Teaching the dungeon =/= teaching to be a zerkfreak. The fact you’re making that assumption makes you one of the players I’d not want in my parties at all. But congratulations on helping to steer this thread into a dead horse. Again.

As for the original topic of the thread? AP is a parameter based on one’s ability to sit on a computer completing massive amounts of menial and repetitive acts. It has no bearing on dungeon skill in any form. Yes yes that’s what you’ve been saying, sure, but you also basically shoot yourself in the crotch by claiming it’s relevant to the time they’ve played the game and how much “better” they are. Quite frankly that’s a crock of steaming dolyak feces. You list your group on LFG, prepare to get the crap of the crop every so often. Dont want those sort of players? Join an aforementioned guild.

Zerkfreak? What even provoked that? Is that even called for?

Aidan Savage.2078:

The fact you’re making that assumption makes you one of the players I’d not want in my parties at all.

Which goes back to my original point that I would never join one of these “everyone welcome” dungeon runs. I don’t want to play with that type of player, and I expect you not to join my “meta zerker builds only” LFGs. Neither one of us is wrong, we just don’t want to play together, and I don’t understand why anyone tries to force themselves in to a group they’re not welcome in.

AP is only a measure of how long you’ve been playing the game. You might get better if you’ve been playing a long time, but some people are still terrible after 10k AP. The problem comes when groups demand a certain amount of AP for dungeons. It shuts out new players who might be naturally good at the game. There’s no law of physics stopping someone from picking up the game and being skilled enough to run Arah before they reach 1k AP.

Fluffball.8307:

Victory.2879:

They are complaining about something they themselves helped create. If you are forming pug groups, be willing to take longer and have to train up new people- occassionally you will find a real gem who in a few runs becomes better than you could ever hope to be.

Fast dungeon runs don’t require skill, they require people running meta builds in berserker gear and doing cohesive meta tactics. It doesn’t matter how good the player is, if they aren’t already in berserker gear, they are not going to wear it no matter how much you try to ‘teach them the dungeon path’.

The one exception might be if you had 4 people in berserker gear taking a guy who ran dungeons a whole lot in PVT or condi gear. When he sees the overwhelming speed and ease difference, it might open his eyes. But your typical PUG will see a group doing well and assume him and his tanky PVT is the reason why, and not the 4 berserker eles.

There is nothing you can say to someone to convince them to abandon tanky gear; they need to come to the conclusion on their own, much like creationists have to dig themselves out of that without the help of others. You can’t logic a “creationist” to start wearing berserker gear. So teaching PUGs is not usually worth anyone’s time.

Uhg… all Zerk party is fine if you want to do it that way but acting like it’s the only way to go is just ignorant.
I’ve seen mixed build and mixed AP groups work just as fast and have way more fun in the process. And by dint of having the same strengths you all have the same weaknesses, so the inflexibility of an all zerk or all build X party just doesn’t impress me in the slightest.

Lady Celtaine.3760:

Uhg… all Zerk party is fine if you want to do it that way but acting like it’s the only way to go is just ignorant.

I’m not acting like it’s the only way. I, and all the other “elitist” have absolutely zero problem with people running whatever build they want. I just don’t want to play with them, much in the same way I am not friends IRL with, let’s say, radical environmentalists. I have nothing against them and respect them, I just don’t have much in common with them. That’s what the AP reqs basically come down to. Like the OP and I’ve said many times, it’s just shorthand for wanting to play with like minded people.

Fluffball.8307:

Lady Celtaine.3760:

Uhg… all Zerk party is fine if you want to do it that way but acting like it’s the only way to go is just ignorant.

I’m not acting like it’s the only way. I, and all the other “elitist” have absolutely zero problem with people running whatever build they want. I just don’t want to play with them, much in the same way I am not friends IRL with, let’s say, radical environmentalists. I have nothing against them and respect them, I just don’t have much in common with them. That’s what the AP reqs basically come down to. Like the OP and I’ve said many times, it’s just shorthand for wanting to play with like minded people.

It’s fine when you put it THAT way, I personally wouldn’t be too concerned about it, however different courses for different horses and all that.

But just for discussions sake, I run two main characters one is the tank type you mentioned the other is the “almighty” Zerk, I know most dungeons and their paths very well. I’m just shy of the magic 5000 AP (5000 being the magic number according to another AP thread) but I doubt I will be significantly more experienced or play much differently when I get a hundred more AP (which tbh I could just get over time soley by logging in to do dailies then logging off again, snore) and yet being over 5000 somehow makes all the difference as to whether I get accepted into a PuG or not? Forgive me but I can see why people are peeved when they get discriminated against just for a couple of numbers. And you can’t really tell how I play unless you play with me, you can’t be certain how “likeminded” I am either unless you really talk to me and find out what my goals are. Hence why it just doesn’t make sense to not give people a chance and take them as the individuals they are.