Guild Wars 2

Shemsu.8721:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I’m not doing WvW without ascended weapons/trinkets because I refuse to be at a 15% disadvantage (math in threads on this forum). This also deviates from what was promised.

Lots of people do WvW with upleveled characters. I’m in a similar situation as you (I’m nowhere close to having an ascended weapon) but I do WvW regularly. You can also do PvP if you’re looking for perfectly even fights. Those happen so rarely in WvW that I don’t think you’ll ever really notice stat disparity. Perhaps at some point in the future, there might be content so hard that you’ll almost have to have ascended gear, but I’m not seeing it so far.

Obsession with max gear seems similar to the playstyles you’re condemning.

First, I understand that people do WvW with upleveled characters. The thing is that this has always been possible and people accept that they will be weaker. Because they get stuff out of it and they get to level.

The only reason I’m concerned about max gear is that it will very quickly become necessary if ANet continues on its current path. Wait until you come across someone with full ascended weapons and trinkets, who is doing 15-20% more damage to you. Sounds like it’ll be a fun and fair fight, lol.

Oh wait. WvW will never be balanced so it’s okay to have ascended gear. Carry on.

20% more damage because of +4 power on an ascended item? nope sorry. I’ve 1v1 against multiple characters wielding ascended weapons (i have none) and i will assume if they put in the effort for weapons that they had jewelry as well. Yet i defeated them as easily as I always have. Not to mention you can get ascended weapons IN wvw for FREE without crafting. Its strange how your so obsessed with max gear yet simply expect it to be handed to you (spvp says hi)

Go look at the math posted in this section of the forum. Or not, I don’t care. But don’t misrepresent the power of these items.

Your anecdotal evidence, btw, proves nothing.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Shemsu.8721:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I’m not doing WvW without ascended weapons/trinkets because I refuse to be at a 15% disadvantage (math in threads on this forum). This also deviates from what was promised.

Lots of people do WvW with upleveled characters. I’m in a similar situation as you (I’m nowhere close to having an ascended weapon) but I do WvW regularly. You can also do PvP if you’re looking for perfectly even fights. Those happen so rarely in WvW that I don’t think you’ll ever really notice stat disparity. Perhaps at some point in the future, there might be content so hard that you’ll almost have to have ascended gear, but I’m not seeing it so far.

Obsession with max gear seems similar to the playstyles you’re condemning.

First, I understand that people do WvW with upleveled characters. The thing is that this has always been possible and people accept that they will be weaker. Because they get stuff out of it and they get to level.

The only reason I’m concerned about max gear is that it will very quickly become necessary if ANet continues on its current path. Wait until you come across someone with full ascended weapons and trinkets, who is doing 15-20% more damage to you. Sounds like it’ll be a fun and fair fight, lol.

Oh wait. WvW will never be balanced so it’s okay to have ascended gear. Carry on.

20% more damage because of +4 power on an ascended item? nope sorry. I’ve 1v1 against multiple characters wielding ascended weapons (i have none) and i will assume if they put in the effort for weapons that they had jewelry as well. Yet i defeated them as easily as I always have. Not to mention you can get ascended weapons IN wvw for FREE without crafting. Its strange how your so obsessed with max gear yet simply expect it to be handed to you (spvp says hi)

Go look at the math posted in this section of the forum. Or not, I don’t care. But don’t misrepresent the power of these items.

Your anecdotal evidence, btw, proves nothing.

And your blatant sense of entitlement proves what? I’ve had no problems in wvw since ascended weapons. Your tearful boycott serves what purpose? You wont play without BiS gear, but you wont do anything to earn it? Good luck with that

Shemsu.8721:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Shemsu.8721:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I’m not doing WvW without ascended weapons/trinkets because I refuse to be at a 15% disadvantage (math in threads on this forum). This also deviates from what was promised.

Lots of people do WvW with upleveled characters. I’m in a similar situation as you (I’m nowhere close to having an ascended weapon) but I do WvW regularly. You can also do PvP if you’re looking for perfectly even fights. Those happen so rarely in WvW that I don’t think you’ll ever really notice stat disparity. Perhaps at some point in the future, there might be content so hard that you’ll almost have to have ascended gear, but I’m not seeing it so far.

Obsession with max gear seems similar to the playstyles you’re condemning.

First, I understand that people do WvW with upleveled characters. The thing is that this has always been possible and people accept that they will be weaker. Because they get stuff out of it and they get to level.

The only reason I’m concerned about max gear is that it will very quickly become necessary if ANet continues on its current path. Wait until you come across someone with full ascended weapons and trinkets, who is doing 15-20% more damage to you. Sounds like it’ll be a fun and fair fight, lol.

Oh wait. WvW will never be balanced so it’s okay to have ascended gear. Carry on.

20% more damage because of +4 power on an ascended item? nope sorry. I’ve 1v1 against multiple characters wielding ascended weapons (i have none) and i will assume if they put in the effort for weapons that they had jewelry as well. Yet i defeated them as easily as I always have. Not to mention you can get ascended weapons IN wvw for FREE without crafting. Its strange how your so obsessed with max gear yet simply expect it to be handed to you (spvp says hi)

Go look at the math posted in this section of the forum. Or not, I don’t care. But don’t misrepresent the power of these items.

Your anecdotal evidence, btw, proves nothing.

And your blatant sense of entitlement proves what? I’ve had no problems in wvw since ascended weapons. Your tearful boycott serves what purpose? You wont play without BiS gear, but you wont do anything to earn it? Good luck with that

What sense of entitlement? From what I recall, I posted why I will never have ascended items, and not that I demand those items be given to me. Why are you so angry?

If you like mindless grinding for mats and find it fun, that’s fine. But this is not the product that was sold to me last year.

Shemsu.8721:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Shemsu.8721:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I’m not doing WvW without ascended weapons/trinkets because I refuse to be at a 15% disadvantage (math in threads on this forum). This also deviates from what was promised.

Lots of people do WvW with upleveled characters. I’m in a similar situation as you (I’m nowhere close to having an ascended weapon) but I do WvW regularly. You can also do PvP if you’re looking for perfectly even fights. Those happen so rarely in WvW that I don’t think you’ll ever really notice stat disparity. Perhaps at some point in the future, there might be content so hard that you’ll almost have to have ascended gear, but I’m not seeing it so far.

Obsession with max gear seems similar to the playstyles you’re condemning.

First, I understand that people do WvW with upleveled characters. The thing is that this has always been possible and people accept that they will be weaker. Because they get stuff out of it and they get to level.

The only reason I’m concerned about max gear is that it will very quickly become necessary if ANet continues on its current path. Wait until you come across someone with full ascended weapons and trinkets, who is doing 15-20% more damage to you. Sounds like it’ll be a fun and fair fight, lol.

Oh wait. WvW will never be balanced so it’s okay to have ascended gear. Carry on.

20% more damage because of +4 power on an ascended item? nope sorry. I’ve 1v1 against multiple characters wielding ascended weapons (i have none) and i will assume if they put in the effort for weapons that they had jewelry as well. Yet i defeated them as easily as I always have. Not to mention you can get ascended weapons IN wvw for FREE without crafting. Its strange how your so obsessed with max gear yet simply expect it to be handed to you (spvp says hi)

Go look at the math posted in this section of the forum. Or not, I don’t care. But don’t misrepresent the power of these items.

Your anecdotal evidence, btw, proves nothing.

And your blatant sense of entitlement proves what? I’ve had no problems in wvw since ascended weapons. Your tearful boycott serves what purpose? You wont play without BiS gear, but you wont do anything to earn it? Good luck with that

gold seller?

Vayne.8563:

It’s a different market because when Guild Wars 1 came out, IE when it made most of its sales and money, there were NO free to play MMOs. How can you say that’s not a different Market. Do you know how old Guild Wars 1 was when Rift released? SWToR? It was already pretty much dead by then, certainly by comparison. Far fewer people playing it. It’s heyday had nothing but MMOs with monthly fees.

But today you have DDO, AoC, TSW, SWToR, Lotro, Star Trek, Champions Online, Allods, Perfect World, hell so many free to play MMOs that didn’t exist when Guild Wars 1 made a name for itself.

How can you possibly compare a market that had no competition at all to a market that has tons of competition. At the time, Guild Wars 2 was the only fantasy multiplayer game without a monthly fee.

Let’s play a game, everytime someone give false informations one of the people in this thread point out the falsity.
I’ll start.
The evidence gives the lie to Vayne:
Flyff, Scions of Fate, Knight Online, Anarchy Online, Ragnarok Online, Mabinogi, Silkroad Online, Cabal Online.

Inb4: not all of them are totally free, well even GW1 and 2 are not totally free indeed they are not f2p but b2p.

Nice one Erick. But you are forgetting one thing, those games are in the minority because Vayne has never heard of them so he assumes they dont really exist.

champ.7021:

Nice one Erick. But you are forgetting one thing, those games are in the minority because Vayne has never heard of them so he assumes they dont really exist.

My bad, next time I will pay more attention xD

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

It’s a different market because when Guild Wars 1 came out, IE when it made most of its sales and money, there were NO free to play MMOs. How can you say that’s not a different Market. Do you know how old Guild Wars 1 was when Rift released? SWToR? It was already pretty much dead by then, certainly by comparison. Far fewer people playing it. It’s heyday had nothing but MMOs with monthly fees.

But today you have DDO, AoC, TSW, SWToR, Lotro, Star Trek, Champions Online, Allods, Perfect World, hell so many free to play MMOs that didn’t exist when Guild Wars 1 made a name for itself.

How can you possibly compare a market that had no competition at all to a market that has tons of competition. At the time, Guild Wars 2 was the only fantasy multiplayer game without a monthly fee.

Let’s play a game, everytime someone give false informations one of the people in this thread point out the falsity.
I’ll start.
The evidence gives the lie to Vayne:
Flyff, Scions of Fate, Knight Online, Anarchy Online, Ragnarok Online, Mabinogi, Silkroad Online, Cabal Online.

Inb4: not all of them are totally free, well even GW1 and 2 are not totally free indeed they are not f2p but b2p.

I think it’s worth pointing out that most of those games were not made for the NA or EU market where as all most of the games that Vayne listed were.

fellyn.5083:

I think it’s worth pointing out that most of those games were not made for the NA or EU market where as all most of the games that Vayne listed were.

My bad again, I thought that we were talking about games with no sub fee available in western market, so I clearly should have excluded games created for the eastern market and then extended in the western market in the same period.
This changes everything, occidentals were not supposed to play those games.
Should I fear legal actions against me? xD

Erick Alastor.3917:

fellyn.5083:

I think it’s worth pointing out that most of those games were not made for the NA or EU market where as all most of the games that Vayne listed were.

My bad again, I thought that we were talking about games with no sub fee available in western market, so I clearly should have excluded games created for the eastern market and then extended in the western market in the same period.
This changes everything, occidentals were not supposed to play those games.
Should I fear legal actions against me? xD

It’s just different audiences have different needs and wants. That’s the only point I’m trying to make.

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p mmo game in the NA market.

fellyn.5083:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Poledo.3256:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

So by “just playing” I have 300 dust, 10 dragonite ore, 20 fragments, and 15 dark matter. I’ll have an ascended weapon by October 2014 at this rate.

I went ahead and tried to get dragonite ore. I found that I had to sit around and watch timers in addition to getting to an area early in order to avoid being dumped into overflow. Then I got to mill around, bored, while waiting for the world boss/event and then I got to fail along with everyone else in the group and got nothing.

Enthralling game design right there.

Yes and no. Up until recently you weren’t really missing anything by not attending boss events. Therefore you argument would be invalid about having to camp in zones to beat overflows and stand around bored. However now that we have dragonite from world bosses it’s validated. Sure you CAN get it elsewhere, but expect to have enough by Christmas if you are just getting it from world chests a few at a time.

WvW seems to be a good way to get the mats. I don’t do WvW though. However I have also made two ascended weapons as of last night so it’s not a challenge for me. I do empathize with you though and understand the frustration.

I’m not doing WvW without ascended weapons/trinkets because I refuse to be at a 15% disadvantage (math in threads on this forum). This also deviates from what was promised.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your numbers from. An ascended weapon provides a rounded up 3% stat bonus over an exotic weapon.

I have an ascended axe and shield and I’m being completely honest here. I don’t notice a single bit of difference in the damage I do from when they were exotic.

What kind of boons you and the people around you bring to the table affect that far far far more than the gap between exotic and ascended.

For those of you who continue to trot out that (erroneous) 3% figure, I offer you this thread.

Spiral Architect.6540:

fellyn.5083:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Poledo.3256:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

So by “just playing” I have 300 dust, 10 dragonite ore, 20 fragments, and 15 dark matter. I’ll have an ascended weapon by October 2014 at this rate.

I went ahead and tried to get dragonite ore. I found that I had to sit around and watch timers in addition to getting to an area early in order to avoid being dumped into overflow. Then I got to mill around, bored, while waiting for the world boss/event and then I got to fail along with everyone else in the group and got nothing.

Enthralling game design right there.

Yes and no. Up until recently you weren’t really missing anything by not attending boss events. Therefore you argument would be invalid about having to camp in zones to beat overflows and stand around bored. However now that we have dragonite from world bosses it’s validated. Sure you CAN get it elsewhere, but expect to have enough by Christmas if you are just getting it from world chests a few at a time.

WvW seems to be a good way to get the mats. I don’t do WvW though. However I have also made two ascended weapons as of last night so it’s not a challenge for me. I do empathize with you though and understand the frustration.

I’m not doing WvW without ascended weapons/trinkets because I refuse to be at a 15% disadvantage (math in threads on this forum). This also deviates from what was promised.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your numbers from. An ascended weapon provides a rounded up 3% stat bonus over an exotic weapon.

I have an ascended axe and shield and I’m being completely honest here. I don’t notice a single bit of difference in the damage I do from when they were exotic.

What kind of boons you and the people around you bring to the table affect that far far far more than the gap between exotic and ascended.

For those of you who continue to trot out that (erroneous) 3% figure, I offer you this thread.

It’s not erroneous. The stats on an ascended weapon are roughly 3% better than the stats on an exotic weapon.

The numbers those guys are pulling come from a character with full ascended trinkets vs full exotic trinkets.

Stands to reason that if all those things have slightly better stats than you’ll be doing more damage.

fellyn.5083:

Spiral Architect.6540:

fellyn.5083:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Poledo.3256:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

So by “just playing” I have 300 dust, 10 dragonite ore, 20 fragments, and 15 dark matter. I’ll have an ascended weapon by October 2014 at this rate.

I went ahead and tried to get dragonite ore. I found that I had to sit around and watch timers in addition to getting to an area early in order to avoid being dumped into overflow. Then I got to mill around, bored, while waiting for the world boss/event and then I got to fail along with everyone else in the group and got nothing.

Enthralling game design right there.

Yes and no. Up until recently you weren’t really missing anything by not attending boss events. Therefore you argument would be invalid about having to camp in zones to beat overflows and stand around bored. However now that we have dragonite from world bosses it’s validated. Sure you CAN get it elsewhere, but expect to have enough by Christmas if you are just getting it from world chests a few at a time.

WvW seems to be a good way to get the mats. I don’t do WvW though. However I have also made two ascended weapons as of last night so it’s not a challenge for me. I do empathize with you though and understand the frustration.

I’m not doing WvW without ascended weapons/trinkets because I refuse to be at a 15% disadvantage (math in threads on this forum). This also deviates from what was promised.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your numbers from. An ascended weapon provides a rounded up 3% stat bonus over an exotic weapon.

I have an ascended axe and shield and I’m being completely honest here. I don’t notice a single bit of difference in the damage I do from when they were exotic.

What kind of boons you and the people around you bring to the table affect that far far far more than the gap between exotic and ascended.

For those of you who continue to trot out that (erroneous) 3% figure, I offer you this thread.

It’s not erroneous. The stats on an ascended weapon are roughly 3% better than the stats on an exotic weapon.

The numbers those guys are pulling come from a character with full ascended trinkets vs full exotic trinkets.

Stands to reason that if all those things have slightly better stats than you’ll be doing more damage.

You’re also forgetting to include the increase in weapon damage, and how that synergizes with the stat increases. In the case of some combinations (e.g. berserker), the net damage increase is significantly more than 3%. Combine that with some trait combinations, and at the end of the day you’ve got a sizable chunk more damage.

fellyn.5083:

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p mmo game in the NA market.

People can say mmo all they want, still doesn’t make gw1 ever an mmo. Instanced multi-player game with a 3D lobby. Disclaimer: No mmo server code was ever harmed in the making of this post.

Daywolf.2630:

fellyn.5083:

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p mmo game in the NA market.

People can say mmo all they want, still doesn’t make gw1 ever an mmo. Instanced multi-player game with a 3D lobby. Disclaimer: No mmo server code was ever harmed in the making of this post.

So sorry. We’ll use Anets definition.

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p CORPG games in the NA market.

And who cares anyways? It’s a game that a lot of people play(ed) online with other people.

fellyn.5083:

So if I get what you’re saying correctly is that you want to continue playing the game never having to repeat any content? Lets be honest here, what you’re asking for is completely unrealistic. No game has ever had an endless amount of content to play so the players will never have to repeat anything.

And I never said you should replay everything 100 times. I believe I said you should play what you enjoy and eventually you’ll have the materials to make an ascended weapon or two. If you’re not doing dungeons, fractals, or wvw, I’m not sure why it matters what gear you’re using anyways.

I’ll give you one more suggestion. Take a break from the game for a few weeks, or hell, even a few months if you’re bored with the things we have to do right now. You’re not paying a sub fee so there is no obligation to play every day to get the most out of it.

It’s obvious no game that doesn’t require you to repeat content. Depending on game length and content, I tend to be able to repeat a few games 2-3 times. More if the game is interesting enough to do so. I repeat games a lot less compared to when I was younger since I have less time, though.

Gear matters in world boss fights. Any body who tried Teq properly will know every inkling of damage you can squeeze out is important.
Gear matters for farming (shock, horror).
Gear matters in WvW. I do it every now and then. Noticing a poorly geared player in 1v1 is very obvious (oh no, I should be in a zerg!).
I don’t care what people say, gear stat increase isn’t negligible (see below).

And yes, I do intend to leave when I find a decent game come out (haven’t found one yet, but that’s off topic), I don’t feel welcomed back with all the time gated stuff.

fellyn.5083:

It’s not erroneous. The stats on an ascended weapon are roughly 3% better than the stats on an exotic weapon.

The numbers those guys are pulling come from a character with full ascended trinkets vs full exotic trinkets.

Stands to reason that if all those things have slightly better stats than you’ll be doing more damage.

Greatsword:
Exotic Weapon Damage: 924-981 = 952.5 avg
Ascended Weapon Damage: 970-1030 = 1000 avg
1000 / 952.5 = 1.050
ie. 5% increase on the base weapon.
Haven’t even included the stat increase.

Also, late comment because I couldn’t google the information anymore (dunno where it disappeared), but 8000 AP is no trivial matter.
Log into https://leaderboards.guildwars2.com/en/na/achievements and get your percentile (assuming you’re not ranked on the board).
I’m pretty sure 8000 AP is approximately in the 90 – 95% percentile.
If I recall correctly, the majority of players were in the 2000-3000 AP range (again, can’t confirm as the info has mysteriously disappeared).
Hopefully someone who knows what I’m talking about and will correct or confirm the above.

BlueZone.4236:

fellyn.5083:

So if I get what you’re saying correctly is that you want to continue playing the game never having to repeat any content? Lets be honest here, what you’re asking for is completely unrealistic. No game has ever had an endless amount of content to play so the players will never have to repeat anything.

And I never said you should replay everything 100 times. I believe I said you should play what you enjoy and eventually you’ll have the materials to make an ascended weapon or two. If you’re not doing dungeons, fractals, or wvw, I’m not sure why it matters what gear you’re using anyways.

I’ll give you one more suggestion. Take a break from the game for a few weeks, or hell, even a few months if you’re bored with the things we have to do right now. You’re not paying a sub fee so there is no obligation to play every day to get the most out of it.

It’s obvious no game that doesn’t require you to repeat content. Depending on game length and content, I tend to be able to repeat a few games 2-3 times. More if the game is interesting enough to do so. I repeat games a lot less compared to when I was younger since I have less time, though.

Gear matters in world boss fights. Any body who tried Teq properly will know every inkling of damage you can squeeze out is important.
Gear matters for farming (shock, horror).
Gear matters in WvW. I do it every now and then. Noticing a poorly geared player in 1v1 is very obvious (oh no, I should be in a zerg!).
I don’t care what people say, gear stat increase isn’t negligible (see below).

And yes, I do intend to leave when I find a decent game come out (haven’t found one yet, but that’s off topic), I don’t feel welcomed back with all the time gated stuff.

fellyn.5083:

It’s not erroneous. The stats on an ascended weapon are roughly 3% better than the stats on an exotic weapon.

The numbers those guys are pulling come from a character with full ascended trinkets vs full exotic trinkets.

Stands to reason that if all those things have slightly better stats than you’ll be doing more damage.

Greatsword:
Exotic Weapon Damage: 924-981 = 952.5 avg
Ascended Weapon Damage: 970-1030 = 1000 avg
1000 / 952.5 = 1.050
ie. 5% increase on the base weapon.
Haven’t even included the stat increase.

Also, late comment because I couldn’t google the information anymore (dunno where it disappeared), but 8000 AP is no trivial matter.
Log into https://leaderboards.guildwars2.com/en/na/achievements and get your percentile (assuming you’re not ranked on the board).
I’m pretty sure 8000 AP is approximately in the 90 – 95% percentile.
If I recall correctly, the majority of players were in the 2000-3000 AP range (again, can’t confirm as the info has mysteriously disappeared).
Hopefully someone who knows what I’m talking about and will correct or confirm the above.

I should point out the 3% I’m referring to is for the axe not the greatsword. And it’s not even 3%. It’s closer to 2.7%. And it would make sense that a two handed weapon would be a little better than a 1 hander.

fellyn.5083:

BlueZone.4236:

fellyn.5083:

So if I get what you’re saying correctly is that you want to continue playing the game never having to repeat any content? Lets be honest here, what you’re asking for is completely unrealistic. No game has ever had an endless amount of content to play so the players will never have to repeat anything.

And I never said you should replay everything 100 times. I believe I said you should play what you enjoy and eventually you’ll have the materials to make an ascended weapon or two. If you’re not doing dungeons, fractals, or wvw, I’m not sure why it matters what gear you’re using anyways.

I’ll give you one more suggestion. Take a break from the game for a few weeks, or hell, even a few months if you’re bored with the things we have to do right now. You’re not paying a sub fee so there is no obligation to play every day to get the most out of it.

It’s obvious no game that doesn’t require you to repeat content. Depending on game length and content, I tend to be able to repeat a few games 2-3 times. More if the game is interesting enough to do so. I repeat games a lot less compared to when I was younger since I have less time, though.

Gear matters in world boss fights. Any body who tried Teq properly will know every inkling of damage you can squeeze out is important.
Gear matters for farming (shock, horror).
Gear matters in WvW. I do it every now and then. Noticing a poorly geared player in 1v1 is very obvious (oh no, I should be in a zerg!).
I don’t care what people say, gear stat increase isn’t negligible (see below).

And yes, I do intend to leave when I find a decent game come out (haven’t found one yet, but that’s off topic), I don’t feel welcomed back with all the time gated stuff.

fellyn.5083:

It’s not erroneous. The stats on an ascended weapon are roughly 3% better than the stats on an exotic weapon.

The numbers those guys are pulling come from a character with full ascended trinkets vs full exotic trinkets.

Stands to reason that if all those things have slightly better stats than you’ll be doing more damage.

Greatsword:
Exotic Weapon Damage: 924-981 = 952.5 avg
Ascended Weapon Damage: 970-1030 = 1000 avg
1000 / 952.5 = 1.050
ie. 5% increase on the base weapon.
Haven’t even included the stat increase.

Also, late comment because I couldn’t google the information anymore (dunno where it disappeared), but 8000 AP is no trivial matter.
Log into https://leaderboards.guildwars2.com/en/na/achievements and get your percentile (assuming you’re not ranked on the board).
I’m pretty sure 8000 AP is approximately in the 90 – 95% percentile.
If I recall correctly, the majority of players were in the 2000-3000 AP range (again, can’t confirm as the info has mysteriously disappeared).
Hopefully someone who knows what I’m talking about and will correct or confirm the above.

I should point out the 3% I’m referring to is for the axe not the greatsword. And it’s not even 3%. It’s closer to 2.7%. And it would make sense that a two handed weapon would be a little better than a 1 hander.

So with two weapons axe/mace both ascended the difference would be greater right.

fellyn.5083:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Poledo.3256:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

So by “just playing” I have 300 dust, 10 dragonite ore, 20 fragments, and 15 dark matter. I’ll have an ascended weapon by October 2014 at this rate.

I went ahead and tried to get dragonite ore. I found that I had to sit around and watch timers in addition to getting to an area early in order to avoid being dumped into overflow. Then I got to mill around, bored, while waiting for the world boss/event and then I got to fail along with everyone else in the group and got nothing.

Enthralling game design right there.

Yes and no. Up until recently you weren’t really missing anything by not attending boss events. Therefore you argument would be invalid about having to camp in zones to beat overflows and stand around bored. However now that we have dragonite from world bosses it’s validated. Sure you CAN get it elsewhere, but expect to have enough by Christmas if you are just getting it from world chests a few at a time.

WvW seems to be a good way to get the mats. I don’t do WvW though. However I have also made two ascended weapons as of last night so it’s not a challenge for me. I do empathize with you though and understand the frustration.

I’m not doing WvW without ascended weapons/trinkets because I refuse to be at a 15% disadvantage (math in threads on this forum). This also deviates from what was promised.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your numbers from…

Do the previous posts seen here answer your question?

fellyn.5083:

I should point out the 3% I’m referring to is for the axe not the greatsword. And it’s not even 3%. It’s closer to 2.7%. And it would make sense that a two handed weapon would be a little better than a 1 hander.

You sure about that?
Exotic http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tooth_of_Frostfang
857 – 1048 = 952.5 avg
Ascended http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Angchu_Reaver
900 – 1100 = 1000 avg

1000 / 952.5 = 1.050
ie. 5% increase again

Feel free to point out any issues here.

Vayne.8563:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Vayne.8563:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Vayne.8563:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Vayne.8563:

Snip

You don’t need to know 8D it’s not of your business in the slightest!
snip

snip

No big business and MMOs have become big business, can function that way. It’s not realistic.

But that depends on the other comapny’s excecution of their concept, aswell as the concept aswell, and finally, the polish of the concept (Lore, class names, blah blah blah).

snip

It’s still a different market. You say do something well. Today don’t something well for how many people…and what are the odds some other company with more money won’t come along in a year and do it better, the same thing, and take away your player base.

Diversity can equal security. That’s why most big companies end up diversifying. It’s why supermarkets end up developing film. They don’t develop film better, faster or cheaper than anyone else, but they do get a percentage of that market share.

How is it a different market? WoW, Tera, SWTOR, GW2, TSW – they’re all MMOs. Unless they’ve got a different label for GW2 provide me the proof and Ill gladly accept my misunderstanding.

You’re right in saying diversity can be secure, but you’re looking at it from the direct opposite from myself. If you have lots of avenues to work, around, great, but the more avenues you have, the higher the maintainence. ANet is hardly a poor company. They have the funds, and resources, and are catering to several branches already, but the further thin you spread your resources, the harder it is to manage them, and the more taxing the effort is. If you have 5 niches you’re targeting with $50,000,000, you can divide those funds more effectively into those nix he’s demands than 50 Niches with the same funds. And lets face it – sloppiness is toxic for a game. If ANet is not actually Implementing things properly, people are going to leave. People are going to leave with a bad taste, and their opinion of Anet isn’t going to be 100% good if the game hasn’t been done correctly.

More importantly than that, Anet should stick to its own convictions, but that’s anothe topic all together.

It’s a different market because when Guild Wars 1 came out, IE when it made most of its sales and money, there were NO free to play MMOs. How can you say that’s not a different Market. Do you know how old Guild Wars 1 was when Rift released? SWToR? It was already pretty much dead by then, certainly by comparison. Far fewer people playing it. It’s heyday had nothing but MMOs with monthly fees.

But today you have DDO, AoC, TSW, SWToR, Lotro, Star Trek, Champions Online, Allods, Perfect World, hell so many free to play MMOs that didn’t exist when Guild Wars 1 made a name for itself.

How can you possibly compare a market that had no competition at all to a market that has tons of competition. At the time, Guild Wars 2 was the only fantasy multiplayer game without a monthly fee.

Meanwhile, Aeria Games.

Furthermore, that’s assuming everyone playing Gw2 right now is playing from Gw1. The lack of “Traveler” titles in the ranks of my friends screams otherwise. For someone who joined the game with no intrest or knowledge of Gw1 (obviously its become a given fact that there’s Gw1 once you hear GW2) they don’t know what reputation you’re necessarily talking about, and they certainly haven’t experienced it – either at all, or the way those who felt it brilliant did. Still, your argument doesn’t add up even then because if you offer something that your competition doesn’t, something the people wan and will grab them, then you can already form up your niches for each of those respective features. Even if Guildwars2 came out today. If Anet made Guildwars today, just aswell, you’re right, it may sink. But on the other hand it may still float aswell. Ultimately. It’s upto ArenaNet’s choices in their circumstances.

We can already see Guildwars 1 and 2 are vastly different in their format on many, many, many fronts. Noone can contest this, weather you want to debate aesthetics or direct effect design principles. Good or Bad? That’s naturally opinionated between the players. But it’s still no less different, and it’s fairly obvious they’re not focused on the same niches, or to that end, at least not all of them.

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Vayne.8563:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Vayne.8563:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Vayne.8563:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Vayne.8563:

Snip

You don’t need to know 8D it’s not of your business in the slightest!
snip

snip

No big business and MMOs have become big business, can function that way. It’s not realistic.

But that depends on the other comapny’s excecution of their concept, aswell as the concept aswell, and finally, the polish of the concept (Lore, class names, blah blah blah).

snip

It’s still a different market. You say do something well. Today don’t something well for how many people…and what are the odds some other company with more money won’t come along in a year and do it better, the same thing, and take away your player base.

Diversity can equal security. That’s why most big companies end up diversifying. It’s why supermarkets end up developing film. They don’t develop film better, faster or cheaper than anyone else, but they do get a percentage of that market share.

How is it a different market? WoW, Tera, SWTOR, GW2, TSW – they’re all MMOs. Unless they’ve got a different label for GW2 provide me the proof and Ill gladly accept my misunderstanding.

You’re right in saying diversity can be secure, but you’re looking at it from the direct opposite from myself. If you have lots of avenues to work, around, great, but the more avenues you have, the higher the maintainence. ANet is hardly a poor company. They have the funds, and resources, and are catering to several branches already, but the further thin you spread your resources, the harder it is to manage them, and the more taxing the effort is. If you have 5 niches you’re targeting with $50,000,000, you can divide those funds more effectively into those nix he’s demands than 50 Niches with the same funds. And lets face it – sloppiness is toxic for a game. If ANet is not actually Implementing things properly, people are going to leave. People are going to leave with a bad taste, and their opinion of Anet isn’t going to be 100% good if the game hasn’t been done correctly.

More importantly than that, Anet should stick to its own convictions, but that’s anothe topic all together.

It’s a different market because when Guild Wars 1 came out, IE when it made most of its sales and money, there were NO free to play MMOs. How can you say that’s not a different Market. Do you know how old Guild Wars 1 was when Rift released? SWToR? It was already pretty much dead by then, certainly by comparison. Far fewer people playing it. It’s heyday had nothing but MMOs with monthly fees.

But today you have DDO, AoC, TSW, SWToR, Lotro, Star Trek, Champions Online, Allods, Perfect World, hell so many free to play MMOs that didn’t exist when Guild Wars 1 made a name for itself.

How can you possibly compare a market that had no competition at all to a market that has tons of competition. At the time, Guild Wars 2 was the only fantasy multiplayer game without a monthly fee.

Meanwhile, Aeria Games.

Furthermore, that’s assuming everyone playing Gw2 right now is playing from Gw1. The lack of “Traveler” titles in the ranks of my friends screams otherwise. For someone who joined the game with no intrest or knowledge of Gw1 (obviously its become a given fact that there’s Gw1 once you hear GW2) they don’t know what reputation you’re necessarily talking about, and they certainly haven’t experienced it – either at all, or the way those who felt it brilliant did. Still, your argument doesn’t add up even then because if you offer something that your competition doesn’t, something the people wan and will grab them, then you can already form up your niches for each of those respective features. Even if Guildwars2 came out today. If Anet made Guildwars today, just aswell, you’re right, it may sink. But on the other hand it may still float aswell. Ultimately. It’s upto ArenaNet’s choices in their circumstances.

We can already see Guildwars 1 and 2 are vastly different in their format on many, many, many fronts. Noone can contest this, weather you want to debate aesthetics or direct effect design principles. Good or Bad? That’s naturally opinionated between the players. But it’s still no less different, and it’s fairly obvious they’re not focused on the same niches, or to that end, at least not all of them.

We might be having two different arguments. I’m saying this genre has changed and stuff that worked eight years ago might not work today. That’s pretty much ALL I’m saying.

If you can’t accept that, there’s not much else to discuss.

champ.7021:

fellyn.5083:

You guys say you just want to have fun in the game but what exactly is it that you want to do?

None of you guys have said what your idea of fun is you’ve just kittened that the game is to grindy and that you don’t want to do anything but you should be rewarding for doing it.

Here it is:

new dungeons that are fun and some new dungeons on par with Arah
New areas like Crystal Desert and Cantha
Continuation of Personal Storyline which intertwines with LS and is actually intricate so you have to follow along.
New weapons and skills
New Races
New classes

These are the things i would like to do. ATM all i do is dungeons but i want gw2 to expand out from just being a singular world. I feel like Anet lost alot of the ambition they had in gw1 (oh no i mentioned gw1 crucify me now)

Using the word in the definition doesn’t really work.

They said there will be new skills in 2013, so just wait if you can.

Races were also discussed but not thoroughly examined. It has been mentioned by the anet staff before though.

Same with classes, although its tricky because most of the archetypes have been accessible thus far. Again, this was talked briefly about with the anet staff (wiki has a list of things discussed by them)

Also, people have to realize gw2 is still quite new. Gw1 had a ton of variety BECAUSE it was old, and built up years of hardwork. It also followed the old traditional mmo in the sense that there was healers and tanks, yada yada. Gw2 has none of that, there is no direct healer class, there is no tank class because bosses don’t hold agro unless only 1 person is attacking which kinda makes designing a challenging fight more tricky although not impossible (many revamps lately, as proof). All the dev’s have done in the past year is polish the current content, because it’s non-sense to expand boarders when the current zones aren’t appealing. We have tons of regions to explore and yet, many zones atm hold a very small population.

I played ffxi, and that world was massive. There were tons of important places, but even so, the vast majority of the game was uninhabited because there was nothing interesting to do there Then they released abyssea and many of my favorite leveling grounds were ruined, because no one went there anymore (the sad downfall of ffxi imo). I don’t see how anyone would like to see ghost towns, every zone should have some reason to revisit it. Even if it’s world bosses or a quest line, make all places relevant in some shape or form before opening up new maps.

Also, some people still run rare gear and they can complete dungeon paths (had a couple instances where a guildie linked me their gear.. sadly disappointed but we got through it). The difference between rares and exotics is somewhere in the same ballpark as ascended vs exotics.

Will full asc make you a stronger geared candidate for hard content? Yes

Will full asc make you a smarter candidate for hard content? Not a chance. Put any pug in tier 7(made up, you get the idea though) gear and tell them to solo the krait witch in Timberline falls. I will pay to see that happen.

Vayne.8563:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Vayne.8563:

It’s a different market because when Guild Wars 1 came out, IE when it made most of its sales and money, there were NO free to play MMOs. How can you say that’s not a different Market. Do you know how old Guild Wars 1 was when Rift released? SWToR? It was already pretty much dead by then, certainly by comparison. Far fewer people playing it. It’s heyday had nothing but MMOs with monthly fees.

But today you have DDO, AoC, TSW, SWToR, Lotro, Star Trek, Champions Online, Allods, Perfect World, hell so many free to play MMOs that didn’t exist when Guild Wars 1 made a name for itself.

How can you possibly compare a market that had no competition at all to a market that has tons of competition. At the time, Guild Wars 2 was the only fantasy multiplayer game without a monthly fee.

Meanwhile, Aeria Games.

Furthermore, that’s assuming everyone playing Gw2 right now is playing from Gw1. The lack of “Traveler” titles in the ranks of my friends screams otherwise. For someone who joined the game with no intrest or knowledge of Gw1 (obviously its become a given fact that there’s Gw1 once you hear GW2) they don’t know what reputation you’re necessarily talking about, and they certainly haven’t experienced it – either at all, or the way those who felt it brilliant did. Still, your argument doesn’t add up even then because if you offer something that your competition doesn’t, something the people wan and will grab them, then you can already form up your niches for each of those respective features. Even if Guildwars2 came out today. If Anet made Guildwars today, just aswell, you’re right, it may sink. But on the other hand it may still float aswell. Ultimately. It’s upto ArenaNet’s choices in their circumstances.

We can already see Guildwars 1 and 2 are vastly different in their format on many, many, many fronts. Noone can contest this, weather you want to debate aesthetics or direct effect design principles. Good or Bad? That’s naturally opinionated between the players. But it’s still no less different, and it’s fairly obvious they’re not focused on the same niches, or to that end, at least not all of them.

We might be having two different arguments. I’m saying this genre has changed and stuff that worked eight years ago might not work today. That’s pretty much ALL I’m saying.

If you can’t accept that, there’s not much else to discuss.

You’re free to your opinion. I don’t believe you’re outright wrong. I just think that’s the one hand, whilst what you’re saying is true, that’s not the only potential outcome, and that the opposite of what you’re saying is equally observable in reality.

fellyn.5083:

So sorry. We’ll use Anets definition.

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p CORPG games in the NA market.

And who cares anyways? It’s a game that a lot of people play(ed) online with other people.

This time I’m with fellyn, CORPG is just a silly acronym that anet invented to justify the supposed impossibility to reply GW1 experience with GW2.
Why is GW1 a CORPG and Vindictus an MMORPG?
Bullkitten, corpg simply don’t exist.
If we have to take in consideration the definition of CORPG then even GW2 is a CORPG, we have instanced areas, the world is not fully open and we have overflows, how many people have to fight together in the same zone to be called MMORPG? No one knows, because no one setted such number.

Erick Alastor.3917:

fellyn.5083:

So sorry. We’ll use Anets definition.

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p CORPG games in the NA market.

And who cares anyways? It’s a game that a lot of people play(ed) online with other people.

This time I’m with fellyn, CORPG is just a silly acronym that anet invented to justify the supposed impossibility to reply GW1 experience with GW2.
Why is GW1 a CORPG and Vindictus an MMORPG?
Bullkitten, corpg simply don’t exist.
If we have to take in consideration the definition of CORPG then even GW2 is a CORPG, we have instanced areas, the world is not fully open and we have overflows, how many people have to fight together in the same zone to be called MMORPG? No one knows, because no one setted such number.

Agreed.

Anet’s top guy could choose to call his new kitten, “Puppy,” and it would still be a cat.

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Vayne.8563:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Vayne.8563:

It’s a different market because when Guild Wars 1 came out, IE when it made most of its sales and money, there were NO free to play MMOs. How can you say that’s not a different Market. Do you know how old Guild Wars 1 was when Rift released? SWToR? It was already pretty much dead by then, certainly by comparison. Far fewer people playing it. It’s heyday had nothing but MMOs with monthly fees.

But today you have DDO, AoC, TSW, SWToR, Lotro, Star Trek, Champions Online, Allods, Perfect World, hell so many free to play MMOs that didn’t exist when Guild Wars 1 made a name for itself.

How can you possibly compare a market that had no competition at all to a market that has tons of competition. At the time, Guild Wars 2 was the only fantasy multiplayer game without a monthly fee.

Meanwhile, Aeria Games.

Furthermore, that’s assuming everyone playing Gw2 right now is playing from Gw1. The lack of “Traveler” titles in the ranks of my friends screams otherwise. For someone who joined the game with no intrest or knowledge of Gw1 (obviously its become a given fact that there’s Gw1 once you hear GW2) they don’t know what reputation you’re necessarily talking about, and they certainly haven’t experienced it – either at all, or the way those who felt it brilliant did. Still, your argument doesn’t add up even then because if you offer something that your competition doesn’t, something the people wan and will grab them, then you can already form up your niches for each of those respective features. Even if Guildwars2 came out today. If Anet made Guildwars today, just aswell, you’re right, it may sink. But on the other hand it may still float aswell. Ultimately. It’s upto ArenaNet’s choices in their circumstances.

We can already see Guildwars 1 and 2 are vastly different in their format on many, many, many fronts. Noone can contest this, weather you want to debate aesthetics or direct effect design principles. Good or Bad? That’s naturally opinionated between the players. But it’s still no less different, and it’s fairly obvious they’re not focused on the same niches, or to that end, at least not all of them.

We might be having two different arguments. I’m saying this genre has changed and stuff that worked eight years ago might not work today. That’s pretty much ALL I’m saying.

If you can’t accept that, there’s not much else to discuss.

You’re free to your opinion. I don’t believe you’re outright wrong. I just think that’s the one hand, whilst what you’re saying is true, that’s not the only potential outcome, and that the opposite of what you’re saying is equally observable in reality.

Sure, no one can know the outcome, but one can assume that the more competition that exists, the harder it is to get a foothold. That’s just basic logic.

There are X number of players that have to be divided among Y number of games.

Ashen.2907:

Erick Alastor.3917:

fellyn.5083:

So sorry. We’ll use Anets definition.

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p CORPG games in the NA market.

And who cares anyways? It’s a game that a lot of people play(ed) online with other people.

This time I’m with fellyn, CORPG is just a silly acronym that anet invented to justify the supposed impossibility to reply GW1 experience with GW2.
Why is GW1 a CORPG and Vindictus an MMORPG?
Bullkitten, corpg simply don’t exist.
If we have to take in consideration the definition of CORPG then even GW2 is a CORPG, we have instanced areas, the world is not fully open and we have overflows, how many people have to fight together in the same zone to be called MMORPG? No one knows, because no one setted such number.

Agreed.

Anet’s top guy could choose to call his new kitten, “Puppy,” and it would still be a cat.

It has to do with the absence of a persistent world…at least that’s how most of the MMO sites define it, and it’s the definition I’ve been working with for a long time. A lobby game isn’t an MMORPG to many, many people. It’s a lobby game.

In order to really be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER RPG it has to allow massive amounts of people to play together at the same time. Twelve isn’t that massive.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Erick Alastor.3917:

fellyn.5083:

So sorry. We’ll use Anets definition.

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p CORPG games in the NA market.

And who cares anyways? It’s a game that a lot of people play(ed) online with other people.

This time I’m with fellyn, CORPG is just a silly acronym that anet invented to justify the supposed impossibility to reply GW1 experience with GW2.
Why is GW1 a CORPG and Vindictus an MMORPG?
Bullkitten, corpg simply don’t exist.
If we have to take in consideration the definition of CORPG then even GW2 is a CORPG, we have instanced areas, the world is not fully open and we have overflows, how many people have to fight together in the same zone to be called MMORPG? No one knows, because no one setted such number.

Agreed.

Anet’s top guy could choose to call his new kitten, “Puppy,” and it would still be a cat.

It has to do with the absence of a persistent world…at least that’s how most of the MMO sites define it, and it’s the definition I’ve been working with for a long time. A lobby game isn’t an MMORPG to many, many people. It’s a lobby game.

In order to really be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER RPG it has to allow massive amounts of people to play together at the same time. Twelve isn’t that massive.

In order for something to define something else the first something itself must be defined. If the number of players defines (or is a defining aspect) of the genre then the number must be defined exactly. It is not and so that aspect does not define the genre.

When I played GW1 it allowed me to play with 1100% more people than I had ever played with in a PC game. It seemed pretty massive to me. I have played other games (COH for example) where I could not find more than one or two other people in game. I don’t think that it stopped being an MMORPG just because multiplayer options were limited. Interesting thought. Would some servers of an MMORPG stop being MMORPGs while others retained that label due to population levels and the inability of some servers, or even certain time periods, to provide massive multiplayer experiences ? Can a game be both an MMORPG and not an MMORPG at the same time ?

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Erick Alastor.3917:

fellyn.5083:

So sorry. We’ll use Anets definition.

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p CORPG games in the NA market.

And who cares anyways? It’s a game that a lot of people play(ed) online with other people.

This time I’m with fellyn, CORPG is just a silly acronym that anet invented to justify the supposed impossibility to reply GW1 experience with GW2.
Why is GW1 a CORPG and Vindictus an MMORPG?
Bullkitten, corpg simply don’t exist.
If we have to take in consideration the definition of CORPG then even GW2 is a CORPG, we have instanced areas, the world is not fully open and we have overflows, how many people have to fight together in the same zone to be called MMORPG? No one knows, because no one setted such number.

Agreed.

Anet’s top guy could choose to call his new kitten, “Puppy,” and it would still be a cat.

It has to do with the absence of a persistent world…at least that’s how most of the MMO sites define it, and it’s the definition I’ve been working with for a long time. A lobby game isn’t an MMORPG to many, many people. It’s a lobby game.

In order to really be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER RPG it has to allow massive amounts of people to play together at the same time. Twelve isn’t that massive.

In order for something to define something else the first something itself must be defined. If the number of players defines (or is a defining aspect) of the genre then the number must be defined exactly. It is not and so that aspect does not define the genre.

When I played GW1 it allowed me to play with 1100% more people than I had ever played with in a PC game. It seemed pretty massive to me. I have played other games (COH for example) where I could not find more than one or two other people in game. I don’t think that it stopped being an MMORPG just because multiplayer options were limited. Interesting thought. Would some servers of an MMORPG stop being MMORPGs while others retained that label due to population levels and the inability of some servers, or even certain time periods, to provide massive multiplayer experiences ? Can a game be both an MMORPG and not an MMORPG at the same time ?

Except that long before Guild Wars 1, players were playing with hundreds of people at the same time, so Guild Wars 1’s 12 player instances (and there were only two of those, most of the game was 8 player), couldn’t be considered massively multiplayer.

Your personal experience doesn’t change what the industry defines itself but what’s out on the market.

I mean WoW with it’s open world released before Guild Wars 1 did, and beyond that, Everquest, DAoC and others released before.

Guild Wars 1 was unique in that it was a multiplayer game that didn’t charge a monthly fee, but you couldn’t compare it to existing MMOs. In fact, those with background in MMOs often tried the game, and left because it was instanced. If it’s all instanced, than it’s not a true MMO.

Vayne.8563:

It has to do with the absence of a persistent world…at least that’s how most of the MMO sites define it, and it’s the definition I’ve been working with for a long time. A lobby game isn’t an MMORPG to many, many people. It’s a lobby game.

In order to really be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER RPG it has to allow massive amounts of people to play together at the same time. Twelve isn’t that massive.

Untrue, due to its changing nature all we can say about a mmorpg is that, in order to be such, a lot of players need just to interact together, and this was possible even in gw1.
Then you can argue as much as you like, but facts shows that here in gw2 you can have events like tequila where even if a lot of players are virtually in the same place spamming skills they are literally in a non-lieu.
Where is the community here?
Ah right running in circle in frostgorge.

Just to remember

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

It has to do with the absence of a persistent world…at least that’s how most of the MMO sites define it, and it’s the definition I’ve been working with for a long time. A lobby game isn’t an MMORPG to many, many people. It’s a lobby game.

In order to really be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER RPG it has to allow massive amounts of people to play together at the same time. Twelve isn’t that massive.

Untrue, due to its changing nature all we can say about a mmorpg is that, in order to be such, a lot of players need just to interact together, and this was possible even in gw1.
Then you can argue as much as you like, but facts shows that here in gw2 you can have events like tequila where even if a lot of players are virtually in the same place spamming skills they are literally in a non-lieu.
Where is the community here?
A right running in circle in frostgorge.

“Just to remember:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XePbxNS78AY”

No one is saying that Guild Wars 2 isn’t a true MMO. All I’m saying is Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a true MMO. Anet has acknowledged that themselves, so if you want to argue, feel free to argue with them.

I don’t know anyone who would say Guild Wars 2 wasn’t a true MMO.

Vayne.8563:

No one is saying that Guild Wars 2 isn’t a true MMO. All I’m saying is Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a true MMO. Anet has acknowledged that themselves, so if you want to argue, feel free to argue with them.

I don’t know anyone who would say Guild Wars 2 wasn’t a true MMO.

Indeed no one is saying that, I’m saying that GW1 was an mmo as well no matter how much devs deny it
You can say that GW1 was less similar to WoW/WoW clones, but this dosn’t make it less mmo than them.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

No one is saying that Guild Wars 2 isn’t a true MMO. All I’m saying is Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a true MMO. Anet has acknowledged that themselves, so if you want to argue, feel free to argue with them.

I don’t know anyone who would say Guild Wars 2 wasn’t a true MMO.

Indeed no one is saying that, I’m saying that GW1 was an mmo as well no matter how much devs deny it
You can say that GW1 was less similar to WoW/WoW clones, but this dosn’t make it less mmo than them.

Well you can make your own definitions of you like…no one will stop you. I think it’s not only the devs who defined the game that way. Many people from actual MMOs came to Guild Wars 1 and said it wasn’t an MMO. You may not agree with those people, but they were there. I’m one of them. I played WoW, before I played Guild Wars 1 and it sure wasn’t an MMO to me, long before I heard what the devs said.

Vayne.8563:

Except that long before Guild Wars 1, players were playing with hundreds of people at the same time, so Guild Wars 1’s 12 player instances (and there were only two of those, most of the game was 8 player), couldn’t be considered massively multiplayer.

Your personal experience doesn’t change what the industry defines itself but what’s out on the market.

I mean WoW with it’s open world released before Guild Wars 1 did, and beyond that, Everquest, DAoC and others released before.

So a zone with less than 12 people (for what its worth you could potentially have as many as 24 people in one instance in GW1-not counting towns and outposts) in it is no longer an MMO ?

Where is the exact number of people required for something to be considered an MMO listed ? I think that you will find that the industry does not define itself in this regard.

A game’s release date, you mention WoW, EQ, and DAoC is not a number of players or a definition of a word (massive).

A company can call their product anything they like. They can even claim that it is not “X” if they like. That decision has no bearing on what the product actually is. If ANet opted to claim that GW1 was not a PC Fantasy computer game but rather a suped up digital adding machine pseudo medieval world simulator…it would be no less a PC fantasy computer game.

Vayne.8563:

Well you can make your own definitions of you like…no one will stop you. I think it’s not only the devs who defined the game that way. Many people from actual MMOs came to Guild Wars 1 and said it wasn’t an MMO. You may not agree with those people, but they were there. I’m one of them. I played WoW, before I played Guild Wars 1 and it sure wasn’t an MMO to me, long before I heard what the devs said.

Nevertheless it seems that a lot of people considered it an mmorpg, again… not a traditional wow clone, but still an mmorpg

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Except that long before Guild Wars 1, players were playing with hundreds of people at the same time, so Guild Wars 1’s 12 player instances (and there were only two of those, most of the game was 8 player), couldn’t be considered massively multiplayer.

Your personal experience doesn’t change what the industry defines itself but what’s out on the market.

I mean WoW with it’s open world released before Guild Wars 1 did, and beyond that, Everquest, DAoC and others released before.

So a zone with less than 12 people (for what its worth you could potentially have as many as 24 people in one instance in GW1-not counting towns and outposts) in it is no longer an MMO ?

Where is the exact number of people required for something to be considered an MMO listed ? I think that you will find that the industry does not define itself in this regard.

A game’s release date, you mention WoW, EQ, and DAoC is not a number of players or a definition of a word (massive).

A company can call their product anything they like. They can even claim that it is not “X” if they like. That decision has no bearing on what the product actually is. If ANet opted to claim that GW1 was not a PC Fantasy computer game but rather a suped up digital adding machine pseudo medieval world simulator…it would be no less a PC fantasy computer game.

It’s not how many people are in the zone. The zone is instanced.

The first time I played Guild Wars 1, I kept walking up to NPCs in the “world” and trying to talk to them. Like in chat. Because I wasn’t used to not having players in the world.

In an MMO the world is open. Anyone can wander in. You don’t form a party and go out into your own instance. That’s what a dungeon is in a typical MMO.

It’s less about the number of players and more about the world being open to anyone who wants to enter it.

Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game. You formed your party in an outpost (lobby), then you entered an instance that no one else but your party could enter.

No one I know would call that an MMO.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Except that long before Guild Wars 1, players were playing with hundreds of people at the same time, so Guild Wars 1’s 12 player instances (and there were only two of those, most of the game was 8 player), couldn’t be considered massively multiplayer.

Your personal experience doesn’t change what the industry defines itself but what’s out on the market.

I mean WoW with it’s open world released before Guild Wars 1 did, and beyond that, Everquest, DAoC and others released before.

So a zone with less than 12 people (for what its worth you could potentially have as many as 24 people in one instance in GW1-not counting towns and outposts) in it is no longer an MMO ?

Where is the exact number of people required for something to be considered an MMO listed ? I think that you will find that the industry does not define itself in this regard.

A game’s release date, you mention WoW, EQ, and DAoC is not a number of players or a definition of a word (massive).

A company can call their product anything they like. They can even claim that it is not “X” if they like. That decision has no bearing on what the product actually is. If ANet opted to claim that GW1 was not a PC Fantasy computer game but rather a suped up digital adding machine pseudo medieval world simulator…it would be no less a PC fantasy computer game.

It’s not how many people are in the zone. The zone is instanced.

The first time I played Guild Wars 1, I kept walking up to NPCs in the “world” and trying to talk to them. Like in chat. Because I wasn’t used to not having players in the world.

In an MMO the world is open. Anyone can wander in. You don’t form a party and go out into your own instance. That’s what a dungeon is in a typical MMO.

It’s less about the number of players and more about the world being open to anyone who wants to enter it.

Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game. You formed your party in an outpost (lobby), then you entered an instance that no one else but your party could enter.

No one I know would call that an MMO.

If it as nothing to do with numbers, even GW2 is istanced, but the cap is higher…
so GW2 is not an mmorpg…
Do you see now why I said that the only meter to define an mmorpg is the interaction between a lot of people? :O

No one you know would call that an MMO? (I have to post it again .-.)

The only self-imposed restrictions you have made for yourself are FotM >20 (if you don’t want to “farm” fractals) and WvW (b/c people who love WvW obviously farm for full ascended gear before they enter).

You can do literally everything else in the game still. And karma should come naturally if you still play general PvE for 1-2 hours a day. No need to farm…

However, if the daily is too much effort for you…idk, man. I usually get mine done in 15 minutes after I do what I was going to do anyway. Takes about 30 minutes if I just log on for the daily (or 20 minutes if I decide to do the sPvP daily).

Erick Alastor.3917:

If it as nothing to do with numbers, even GW2 is istanced, but the cap is higher…
so GW2 is not an mmorpg…
Do you see now why I said that the only meter to define an mmorpg is the interaction between a lot of people? :O

No one you know would call that an MMO? (I have to post it again .-.)

Even ANet refers to GW1 as a CORPG…and it was.
As a GWAMM, I already know that GW1 was a CORPG…b/c it was.
There’s nothing wrong with that…

By your definition, CoD is an MMO b/c people interact on CoD forums and on voice chat.
While I do think the definition is a bit vague, I don’t think CoD would be considered an MMO by very many people.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Except that long before Guild Wars 1, players were playing with hundreds of people at the same time, so Guild Wars 1’s 12 player instances (and there were only two of those, most of the game was 8 player), couldn’t be considered massively multiplayer.

Your personal experience doesn’t change what the industry defines itself but what’s out on the market.

I mean WoW with it’s open world released before Guild Wars 1 did, and beyond that, Everquest, DAoC and others released before.

So a zone with less than 12 people (for what its worth you could potentially have as many as 24 people in one instance in GW1-not counting towns and outposts) in it is no longer an MMO ?

Where is the exact number of people required for something to be considered an MMO listed ? I think that you will find that the industry does not define itself in this regard.

A game’s release date, you mention WoW, EQ, and DAoC is not a number of players or a definition of a word (massive).

A company can call their product anything they like. They can even claim that it is not “X” if they like. That decision has no bearing on what the product actually is. If ANet opted to claim that GW1 was not a PC Fantasy computer game but rather a suped up digital adding machine pseudo medieval world simulator…it would be no less a PC fantasy computer game.

It’s not how many people are in the zone. The zone is instanced.

The first time I played Guild Wars 1, I kept walking up to NPCs in the “world” and trying to talk to them. Like in chat. Because I wasn’t used to not having players in the world.

In an MMO the world is open. Anyone can wander in. You don’t form a party and go out into your own instance. That’s what a dungeon is in a typical MMO.

It’s less about the number of players and more about the world being open to anyone who wants to enter it.

Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game. You formed your party in an outpost (lobby), then you entered an instance that no one else but your party could enter.

No one I know would call that an MMO.

If it as nothing to do with numbers, even GW2 is istanced, but the cap is higher…
so GW2 is not an mmorpg…
Do you see now why I said that the only meter to define an mmorpg is the interaction between a lot of people? :O

No one you know would call that an MMO? (I have to post it again .-.)

Guild Wars 2 isn’t instanced though. It’s zoned, but the zones are open. That means anyone can freely enter them if there’s room.

In other words, if you enter an instance in Guild Wars 1 by yourself, no one else can EVER enter your instance. It’s done. It’s not open world.

In Guild Wars 2, if you leave divinities reach by yourself, other people can follow you out. That makes it, in the language that has evolved around MMOs anyway, NOT an instance.

Vorch.2985:

The only self-imposed restrictions you have made for yourself are FotM >20 (if you don’t want to “farm” fractals) and WvW (b/c people who love WvW obviously farm for full ascended gear before they enter).

You can do literally everything else in the game still. And karma should come naturally if you still play general PvE for 1-2 hours a day. No need to farm…

However, if the daily is too much effort for you…idk, man. I usually get mine done in 15 minutes after I do what I was going to do anyway. Takes about 30 minutes if I just log on for the daily (or 20 minutes if I decide to do the sPvP daily).

Erick Alastor.3917:

If it as nothing to do with numbers, even GW2 is istanced, but the cap is higher…
so GW2 is not an mmorpg…
Do you see now why I said that the only meter to define an mmorpg is the interaction between a lot of people? :O

No one you know would call that an MMO? (I have to post it again .-.)

Even ANet refers to GW1 as a CORPG…and it was.
As a GWAMM, I already know that GW1 was a CORPG…b/c it was.
There’s nothing wrong with that…

By your definition, CoD is an MMO b/c people interact on CoD forums and on voice chat.
While I do think the definition is a bit vague, I don’t think CoD would be considered an MMO by very many people.

I never played CoD, but as far I know it’s primarly an FPS, obviously that mechanic is something (for now) far from the mmorpg genere, and when I was talking about interaction (I thought it was clear) I meant social interactions on large scale that take place inside the virtual world (not on the forums or on a limited voice chat).
So no, I would not consider CoD an mmorpg.

I’m not ok with the definition of CORPG for the reason I already explained.
Why Vindictus and a lot of games like that are considered mmorpg and not GW1?
Why GW1 devs at some point felt the need to create this new acronym?

Everytime old gw1 players say something that they think was done better in GW1 to suggest how to manage this game, then that term is used to justify that it is not possible because one is a CORPG and the other one is an MMORPG.
Imo all bulkitten.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t instanced though. It’s zoned, but the zones are open. That means anyone can freely enter them if there’s room.

In other words, if you enter an instance in Guild Wars 1 by yourself, no one else can EVER enter your instance. It’s done. It’s not open world.

In Guild Wars 2, if you leave divinities reach by yourself, other people can follow you out. That makes it, in the language that has evolved around MMOs anyway, NOT an instance.

(multi-quote conversation removed for5001 length requirement hehe)
Well it’s more than that, really. It’s really the functions of the server coding that defines it.

1. it provided persistent zones. This means that even though there may be no players in a given zone, it continues to run as a process on the server including the tracking of MOB’s and such. All mmo’s are zone based, just some handle how the zones are loaded by the client, differently; pre-loading and such to make it seem like huge areas.

2. A large amount of players in the same area/zone. Has been debatable, but really this is usually greater than 64 players at the very minimum, debatable though and I’m not sure I agree entirely. Traditionally, at least since EQ2, it has been around 100 players, then the system would instance an overflow. And not just as a lobby, but with full combat ability, otherwise it’s not a “game” but a social hub.

Add those two together and you have an mmo server. And doing so changes the way you handle your network protocols, such as the ability to use TCP/IP over UDP/IP or such variations. Very much performance issues. Such as in EQ1, to those vets that played it early on (no instanced/overflow zones at all), you would see characters run in circles in the distance, vs. another non-mmo game using a more performance grade protocol and settings for more accurate tracking beyond a distance limit.

Technically, some protocols can theoretically handle 64k+ players in a zone, but tracking becomes very …mushy, and odd results happen (e.g seeing other players running backwards, so fun). But with fine tuning, you can usually get 100-300 players stable in a given area and depending on how demanding such things as scripting and animations and mobs and projectile tracking and more – may be in such a game. GW2 is actually pretty hefty as I observe it, which is a big reason players need broadband to mostly play.

So yes, it makes a BIG difference, the way an mmo functions compared to your typical multi-player game. But now that mmo’s are more “popular” I see a lot of marketing teams refer to this game and that game as an mmo when technically they are far from it, just to sell more, ya know?

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t instanced though. It’s zoned, but the zones are open. That means anyone can freely enter them if there’s room.

In other words, if you enter an instance in Guild Wars 1 by yourself, no one else can EVER enter your instance. It’s done. It’s not open world.

In Guild Wars 2, if you leave divinity’s reach by yourself, other people can follow you out. That makes it, in the language that has evolved around MMOs anyway, NOT an instance.

Ok saying zoned is more correct.
The fact remains that in GW1 every specific area was accessible to all, whether you were there or not, so the world was persistent, and outposts were the connection points where were concentrated most of the social interactions.

To Daywolf.2630
It’s not just a marketing move, today mmo have nothing to do with the technology behind them or “where you put your players” they are all about interactions/partecipation/growth.

Unfortunately this sector rely too much on the last one of those points, influencing the behavior of the players in a pavlovian way.

Daywolf.2630:

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t instanced though. It’s zoned, but the zones are open. That means anyone can freely enter them if there’s room.

In other words, if you enter an instance in Guild Wars 1 by yourself, no one else can EVER enter your instance. It’s done. It’s not open world.

In Guild Wars 2, if you leave divinities reach by yourself, other people can follow you out. That makes it, in the language that has evolved around MMOs anyway, NOT an instance.

(multi-quote conversation removed for5001 length requirement hehe)
Well it’s more than that, really. It’s really the functions of the server coding that defines it.

1. it provided persistent zones. This means that even though there may be no players in a given zone, it continues to run as a process on the server including the tracking of MOB’s and such. All mmo’s are zone based, just some handle how the zones are loaded by the client, differently; pre-loading and such to make it seem like huge areas.

2. A large amount of players in the same area/zone. Has been debatable, but really this is usually greater than 64 players at the very minimum, debatable though and I’m not sure I agree entirely. Traditionally, at least since EQ2, it has been around 100 players, then the system would instance an overflow. And not just as a lobby, but with full combat ability, otherwise it’s not a “game” but a social hub.

Add those two together and you have an mmo server. And doing so changes the way you handle your network protocols, such as the ability to use TCP/IP over UDP/IP or such variations. Very much performance issues. Such as in EQ1, to those vets that played it early on (no instanced/overflow zones at all), you would see characters run in circles in the distance, vs. another non-mmo game using a more performance grade protocol and settings for more accurate tracking beyond a distance limit.

Technically, some protocols can theoretically handle 64k+ players in a zone, but tracking becomes very …mushy, and odd results happen (e.g seeing other players running backwards, so fun). But with fine tuning, you can usually get 100-300 players stable in a given area and depending on how demanding such things as scripting and animations and mobs and projectile tracking and more – may be in such a game. GW2 is actually pretty hefty as I observe it, which is a big reason players need broadband to mostly play.

So yes, it makes a BIG difference, the way an mmo functions compared to your typical multi-player game. But now that mmo’s are more “popular” I see a lot of marketing teams refer to this game and that game as an mmo when technically they are far from it, just to sell more, ya know?

Wrong, publishers/developers now start to run away for being named MMO, so you have MMOs that are called “online persistant shooters” and such

MMOs as a genre are losing players. WoW lost 5 million players in short time. Did you see other MMOs grow by 5 million? Nope. And why? Because genre is going downhill and ANet certanly joined the band by their 180 turnaround.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t instanced though. It’s zoned, but the zones are open. That means anyone can freely enter them if there’s room.

In other words, if you enter an instance in Guild Wars 1 by yourself, no one else can EVER enter your instance. It’s done. It’s not open world.

In Guild Wars 2, if you leave divinity’s reach by yourself, other people can follow you out. That makes it, in the language that has evolved around MMOs anyway, NOT an instance.

Ok saying zoned is more correct.
The fact remains that in GW1 every specific area was accessible to all, whether you were there or not, so the world was persistent, and outposts were the connection points where were concentrated most of the social interactions.

To Daywolf.2630
It’s not just a marketing move, today mmo have nothing to do with the technology behind them or “where you put your players” they are all about interactions/partecipation/growth.

Unfortunately this sector rely too much on the last one of those points, influencing the behavior of the players in a pavlovian way.

In order to communicate, people have to define terms. Every definition of an MMORPG I’ve ever seen involves an open world…meaning a world that anyone can join random strangers in, without grouping before hand.

You say the instances in Guild Wars 1 exist before you enter them, but I’m thinking those instances are created for you, when you enter them. That’s why when two of us are in LA and I’m up to the War in Krtya content and someone else isn’t, when we go through the gate we get completely different zones. Mine are filled with high level and high functioning White Mantle, and someone else gets ettins and fire imps.

The zone is there for you only and you alone. If you enter alone, you remain alone.

And again, after years of playing MMOs, talking about MMOs with other people, reading about MMOs, this seems to be how most people define them. If you have a different defintion, it doesn’t really help you communicate with others.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vorch.2985:

The only self-imposed restrictions you have made for yourself are FotM >20 (if you don’t want to “farm” fractals) and WvW (b/c people who love WvW obviously farm for full ascended gear before they enter).

You can do literally everything else in the game still. And karma should come naturally if you still play general PvE for 1-2 hours a day. No need to farm…

However, if the daily is too much effort for you…idk, man. I usually get mine done in 15 minutes after I do what I was going to do anyway. Takes about 30 minutes if I just log on for the daily (or 20 minutes if I decide to do the sPvP daily).

Erick Alastor.3917:

If it as nothing to do with numbers, even GW2 is istanced, but the cap is higher…
so GW2 is not an mmorpg…
Do you see now why I said that the only meter to define an mmorpg is the interaction between a lot of people? :O

No one you know would call that an MMO? (I have to post it again .-.)

Even ANet refers to GW1 as a CORPG…and it was.
As a GWAMM, I already know that GW1 was a CORPG…b/c it was.
There’s nothing wrong with that…

By your definition, CoD is an MMO b/c people interact on CoD forums and on voice chat.
While I do think the definition is a bit vague, I don’t think CoD would be considered an MMO by very many people.

I never played CoD, but as far I know it’s primarly an FPS, obviously that mechanic is something (for now) far from the mmorpg genere, and when I was talking about interaction (I thought it was clear) I meant social interactions on large scale that take place inside the virtual world (not on the forums or on a limited voice chat).
So no, I would not consider CoD an mmorpg.

I’m not ok with the definition of CORPG for the reason I already explained.
Why Vindictus and a lot of games like that are considered mmorpg and not GW1?
Why GW1 devs at some point felt the need to create this new acronym?

Everytime old gw1 players say something that they think was done better in GW1 to suggest how to manage this game, then that term is used to justify that it is not possible because one is a CORPG and the other one is an MMORPG.
Imo all bulkitten.

So you like to mince words except when it doesnt work out for you. By your definition every online fps is an mmo. However it really boils down to persistent vs instansted world. GW1 is mostly a single player game you can accomplish with henchmen/heroes. when you leave a map in gw1, its gone, when you leave a map in gw2 there are still events happening, players exploring etc. gw1 was a great game, but an mmo it was not

Vayne.8563:

In order to communicate, people have to define terms. Every definition of an MMORPG I’ve ever seen involves an open world…meaning a world that anyone can join random strangers in, without grouping before hand.

You say the instances in Guild Wars 1 exist before you enter them, but I’m thinking those instances are created for you, when you enter them. That’s why when two of us are in LA and I’m up to the War in Krtya content and someone else isn’t, when we go through the gate we get completely different zones. Mine are filled with high level and high functioning White Mantle, and someone else gets ettins and fire imps.

The zone is there for you only and you alone. If you enter alone, you remain alone.

And again, after years of playing MMOs, talking about MMOs with other people, reading about MMOs, this seems to be how most people define them. If you have a different defintion, it doesn’t really help you communicate with others.

Do you really were a teacher?
Even in my kitten arretrated country a lot of my countrymen know that mmo can be used outside the typical gaming context.
So speaking of mmo when we refer to the persistent world it’s not about being inside Shing Jea or roaming inside the Haiju Lagoon, it’s the possibility to join A WORLD, a virtual one and being there interacting with a lot of other people.
Usually you don’t have to party with anyone for entering inside any virtual world.

All the GW1 world was potentially there between our computer and the servers, so anyone could virtually experience the same world. But not necessarly in a synchronously way.

Shemsu.8721:

So you like to mince words except when it doesnt work out for you. By your definition every online fps is an mmo. However it really boils down to persistent vs instansted world. GW1 is mostly a single player game you can accomplish with henchmen/heroes. when you leave a map in gw1, its gone, when you leave a map in gw2 there are still events happening, players exploring etc. gw1 was a great game, but an mmo it was not

Instead when you leave the virtual world of GW1 the game crashes for everyone else xD
No by my definition FPS are not mmo (read it again :| ), but as I pointed out this is it for now.
I think that in the future mmorpg will merge the two types, think about it, talking about the mechanic, current mmorpg have become a lot more dynamic than in the past…

MikaHR.1978:

Wrong, publishers/developers now start to run away for being named MMO, so you have MMOs that are called “online persistant shooters” and such

MMOs as a genre are losing players. WoW lost 5 million players in short time. Did you see other MMOs grow by 5 million? Nope. And why? Because genre is going downhill and ANet certanly joined the band by their 180 turnaround.

Who knows what those 5 million players did. Maybe they went back to another F2P MMO, maybe some subscribed to FFXIV (they did grow to about 1m this year after all) some might have taken a break, others might have tried some of the gazillion F2P MMOs out there. Who knows. according to this study thought the MMO market is growing and its predicted to continue growing.
http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

League of Legends
Counter-Strike Online

Yup, its not only MMOs they measure, as i suspected.

Yes, we are to believe 5 million just from WoW, but pretty much ALL AAA MMOs lost players, moved to some obsure F2P MMOs

oh wait, no they didnt, they moved to different GENRE

Just to lighten up on the constant negativity in this thread, I did have a good time playing the game last time.

I got a map completion on the last zone in Orr, found and completed a jumping puzzle, but the highlight of the night was doing the Arah event with 4-5 people. We got the champion but the risen wizard killed us all with something like 0.5% health left. More people came for round 2, and we got it, but round 1 was more fun. I got to use all of my weapon sets and abilities and it was way more involved then the Dwayna event I did with the zerg next. On that one, all I could do was attack from ranged because every time I tried to melee, I couldn’t see a thing and would instantly die.

In short, more stuff like wizard and less like Dwayna, ANet.