Guild Wars 2

Quick background:

- Run a fairly large guild that moved from WoW (5 years) to SWTOR (ran out of things to do) and came here to GW2. About 250 strong and everyone loved Gw2 in the beginning. We all participated in the beta and upon release dedicated ourselves to the game in earnest.

- As the bulk of our members reached 80, got map completion and filled themselves out with the best Exotic gear there was to have we focused on WvW and running dungeons to get the gear (look) we wanted.

- All of this probably feels very familiar to many of you. Except soon after the bulk of our members started to get bored – primarily because there wasn’t anything left for them to “continue progressing” their character. Sure some leveled alts but most of us are hardcore players and like to dedicate to one charatcer. Others continued to focus on WvW but even that didn’t provide any rewards that made their characters better. A fewer number completed their legendaries and today there’s only a handful left playing GW2. Sure theres the notion of playig the game because its fun. And GW2 is that, it is fun. But many of us need to feel like we are accomplishing something. Call it vanity too, but we also want to feel and look special…and Gw’s lack of gear progression makes us sad.

- We’re still together as a guild but scattered across Marvel Heroes beta, Neverwinter beta , Secret World, Planetside and other games that we have fun with, but like a tribe we are scattered and want to find a home..As the leader I feel like GW2 is the best MMO I’ve played for many reasons and should be that home. I love the game and it has so much potential. But alas, it has yet to be that for us.

- But without the trappings of end game my guild and even myself feel like GW2 is a game thats easy to forget, to stop playing. I log into the game and look at my guardian and feel like playing won’t give me anything to show for my time.

- We want raiding or at the least scalable dungeons that reward loot that makes our characters better. We NEED gear progression. Sure the Ascended system is a step in the right direction (Kinda) but its really not what we need; its too limited. We need a true scalable gear progression system that rewards dedication and achievement. The fractals are interesting but we need more.

- Will GW2 ever be a destination we can call home? Like we did in EQ and WoW for so many years. We loved our time there and after numerous years moved on for good reasons. We wanted GW2 to be our new home, but it’s not, and I guess it wont be until Arena decides that it will give hardcore players something to do.

We love the game. I love the game. I just wish it would provide end game.

thanks for listening.
Cheers

stay classy san diego

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

My post was not intended to offend nor create or stir up contentious subject matters. As the title says – an honest question.

May I ask – what is the disdain for gear progression?

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

+1

A lot of the people on the forums came to GW2 (a lot of them from GW1) because of the “promise” that their won’t be any gear progression at all. I don’t know how many we really are, but for us ascended gear was clearly a step in the wrong direction. Once you hit lvl 80 GW2 should be a sandbox game and not a grind fest.

Based on the background of your guild GW2 is not the game you are looking for, you should probably play TERA, Neverwinter, go back to WoW or wait until Wildstar goes beta.

SolidTx.3249:

May I ask – what is the disdain for gear progression?

Gear progression is bad and unnecessary buy nature. It forces players to do something they don’t want in order to reach content that easily could have been implemented without the requirement of an additional tier of gear.

SolidTx.3249:

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

My post was not intended to offend nor create or stir up contentious subject matters. As the title says – an honest question.

May I ask – what is the disdain for gear progression?

People in this community generally dislike gear progression because we want to be free to play the game as we wish. Do whatever content we want because it’s fun, not because we have to. The sense of being “finished” with your toon is a satisfying and refreshing break from other games. There’s no need to grind a dungeon you hate over and over just to keep up with the Joneses. That is appealing to a lot of people. Free to just do whatever the heck they please and really just enjoy playing their character.

I will concur with the previous posters and also say this game is likely not for you unless you’re really into World vs World.

Not so long, I was playing Wow, proof: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kiljaeden/Poplolita/simple

And then, I got tired to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again…. And then gw2 came out. Exactly what I was looking for for years! Because it lacks what I hate the most in wow.

Being forced to:
Pve:
1. do daily quests to get into normal dungeons,
2. do normal dungeons to get into heroic dungeons,
3. do heroic dungeons to get into the real content: raid.
4. Repeat after each patch release.
5. Burn out.
PvP
1. Random battleground during 72 hours to not get one shot in competitive pvp: Arena/rated battleground
2. Farming conquest points during 2-3 months in arena/rated battleground just to stay on the competitive fiel, if you misssed 2 weeks of farm, you were pretty much screwed
3. Repeat after each patch release.
4. Burn out.

Was just not fun.

I am, admittedly, a bit surprised. I never realized that gear progression could be viewed so negatively. I see how you are looking at it – but hopefully you can respect another point of view.

We think of gear progression as a good thing. I guess the difference then comes down to a capitalistic vs communistic game design philosophy. Said differently some want a game that reward their players with better possessions and items based on their achievements, hard work, dedication and comittment.

The same game, I guess, can be seen as elitist, requiring it players to work in order to get something that people feel should be communal and given to all freely.

And I don’t see GW2 at lvl 80 as a sandbox.. Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

SolidTx.3249:

I am, admittedly, a bit surprised. I never realized that gear progression could be viewed so negatively. I see how you are looking at it – but hopefully you can respect another point of view.

We think of gear progression as a good thing. I guess the difference then comes down to a capitalistic vs communistic game design philosophy. Said differently some want a game that reward their players with better possessions and items based on their achievements, hard work, dedication and comittment.

The same game, I guess, can be seen as elitist, requiring it players to work in order to get something that people feel should be communal and given to all freely.

And I don’t see GW2 at lvl 80 as a sandbox.. Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

But then some people are more powerful than others with their uber awesome new gear and most people don’t like that.

You can be rewarded with cool stuff without that cool stuff making you more powerful. Because if Joe No Lifer has been grinding the endgame PvE all day while I’m off working, he’s going to get more powerful faster than me and now I feel the need to keep up. I can no longer just log in and do a dungeon or some BGs for fun, I have to focus now on getting that awesome gear that everyone else has.

Or that’s the general thinking that people go through. They feel a need to keep up in gear with everyone else, even after a dungeon has stopped being fun. GW2 you can grind that dungeon and get rewarded for it, but no one else has to keep up with you. They can go do other things that make them happy and earn equally cool stuff (literally). And with how easy it is to get a set of exotics, people can grind that cool stuff at their own pace.

SolidTx.3249:

And I don’t see GW2 at lvl 80 as a sandbox.. Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

The same as in GW1: Everything you want.
If you want to do a certain dungeon you can do it right away, you don’t need to farm gear in order to survive it (expect for higher fractal levels). You don’t need one set of gear to kill Lupi and another to kill Subject Alpha, you don’t need special stats to not be a victim in WvW and you also don’t get “owned” by a dumb kid that doesn’t know much about this games mechanics just because he has the time to farm the gear and you don’t.

I get that their are some people out their that like gear progression and the fact that the time you played the game matters more than how good you actually are, but I will never understand why.

One of the greatest pleasures of finally getting a legendary is being able to just sit in LA and just chat with people, as you’re no longer pressured to farm. ;D

SolidTx.3249:

I am, admittedly, a bit surprised. I never realized that gear progression could be viewed so negatively. I see how you are looking at it – but hopefully you can respect another point of view.

We think of gear progression as a good thing. I guess the difference then comes down to a capitalistic vs communistic game design philosophy. Said differently some want a game that reward their players with better possessions and items based on their achievements, hard work, dedication and comittment.

The same game, I guess, can be seen as elitist, requiring it players to work in order to get something that people feel should be communal and given to all freely.

And I don’t see GW2 at lvl 80 as a sandbox.. Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

The problem is that many players game from Guild Wars 1, like me, and are in fact fans of that game. You maxed out your gear very early in Guild Wars 1 and NEVER got better gear after that. In fact. if you maxed out your gear in Prophecies, the first game, you never had to upgrade your gear again in any of the other three Guild Wars 1 games.

It made for better gaming in my opinion.

In Guild Wars 2, when ascended gear was introduced, a decent portion of the population actually walked away from Guild Wars 2. I don’t think Anet is willing to open this can of worms again.

Vayne.8563:

SolidTx.3249:

I am, admittedly, a bit surprised. I never realized that gear progression could be viewed so negatively. I see how you are looking at it – but hopefully you can respect another point of view.

We think of gear progression as a good thing. I guess the difference then comes down to a capitalistic vs communistic game design philosophy. Said differently some want a game that reward their players with better possessions and items based on their achievements, hard work, dedication and comittment.

The same game, I guess, can be seen as elitist, requiring it players to work in order to get something that people feel should be communal and given to all freely.

And I don’t see GW2 at lvl 80 as a sandbox.. Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

The problem is that many players game from Guild Wars 1, like me, and are in fact fans of that game. You maxed out your gear very early in Guild Wars 1 and NEVER got better gear after that. In fact. if you maxed out your gear in Prophecies, the first game, you never had to upgrade your gear again in any of the other three Guild Wars 1 games.

It made for better gaming in my opinion.

In Guild Wars 2, when ascended gear was introduced, a decent portion of the population actually walked away from Guild Wars 2. I don’t think Anet is willing to open this can of worms again.

Now I understand what all the moaning about Ascended gear is all about. I started after it was introduced so it’s always been in the game for me. That’s a bit of a shame really.

zenleto.6179:

Vayne.8563:

SolidTx.3249:

I am, admittedly, a bit surprised. I never realized that gear progression could be viewed so negatively. I see how you are looking at it – but hopefully you can respect another point of view.

We think of gear progression as a good thing. I guess the difference then comes down to a capitalistic vs communistic game design philosophy. Said differently some want a game that reward their players with better possessions and items based on their achievements, hard work, dedication and comittment.

The same game, I guess, can be seen as elitist, requiring it players to work in order to get something that people feel should be communal and given to all freely.

And I don’t see GW2 at lvl 80 as a sandbox.. Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

The problem is that many players game from Guild Wars 1, like me, and are in fact fans of that game. You maxed out your gear very early in Guild Wars 1 and NEVER got better gear after that. In fact. if you maxed out your gear in Prophecies, the first game, you never had to upgrade your gear again in any of the other three Guild Wars 1 games.

It made for better gaming in my opinion.

In Guild Wars 2, when ascended gear was introduced, a decent portion of the population actually walked away from Guild Wars 2. I don’t think Anet is willing to open this can of worms again.

Now I understand what all the moaning about Ascended gear is all about. I started after it was introduced so it’s always been in the game for me. That’s a bit of a shame really.

I understand why Anet did it, and I sort of felt they had to, but they made it a very gradual upgrade, so that it didn’t resemble gear grind in other games (even though people still call it such). In addition, when it was first released, Anet made the mistake of making the fractals the only way to get it, which kitten people off.

Vayne.8563:

zenleto.6179:

Vayne.8563:

SolidTx.3249:

I am, admittedly, a bit surprised. I never realized that gear progression could be viewed so negatively. I see how you are looking at it – but hopefully you can respect another point of view.

We think of gear progression as a good thing. I guess the difference then comes down to a capitalistic vs communistic game design philosophy. Said differently some want a game that reward their players with better possessions and items based on their achievements, hard work, dedication and comittment.

The same game, I guess, can be seen as elitist, requiring it players to work in order to get something that people feel should be communal and given to all freely.

And I don’t see GW2 at lvl 80 as a sandbox.. Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

The problem is that many players game from Guild Wars 1, like me, and are in fact fans of that game. You maxed out your gear very early in Guild Wars 1 and NEVER got better gear after that. In fact. if you maxed out your gear in Prophecies, the first game, you never had to upgrade your gear again in any of the other three Guild Wars 1 games.

It made for better gaming in my opinion.

In Guild Wars 2, when ascended gear was introduced, a decent portion of the population actually walked away from Guild Wars 2. I don’t think Anet is willing to open this can of worms again.

Now I understand what all the moaning about Ascended gear is all about. I started after it was introduced so it’s always been in the game for me. That’s a bit of a shame really.

I understand why Anet did it, and I sort of felt they had to, but they made it a very gradual upgrade, so that it didn’t resemble gear grind in other games (even though people still call it such). In addition, when it was first released, Anet made the mistake of making the fractals the only way to get it, which kitten people off.

I don’t really care anyway, as long as it doesn’t prevent me to do dungeons. But that’s just me!

I played GW1 for about 2 weeks, so am I not a GW1 player.

I have however played a variety of games over the last 13+ years, including WoW, it’s clone (RIFT), EQ2 among others, including RvR (large group PvP) games: DAoC and Warhammer Online.

What is attractive about this game is that it offers skill-based play that is not gear-centric.

It is beautifully designed with a mix of 5-man content, open world WvW, and open-world “raids”.

At release, GW2 promoted community-building OUTSIDE of guilds, unlike WoW where the gear-centric design devolved community down into only guilds, which then devolved further into rent-a-bot groups of guild hopping self-entitled, self-focused players who were after the best gear in the game often using and absuing their guildmates to get it. Blizzard allowed and fostered a horrific MMO culture that spread like a disease to other MMO’s (starting with allowing their “BNet babies” to harass and belittle beta testers. The forums before release were a cesspool, and the game never recovered from that.) When Jeff Kaplan made his infamous NYT post shaming and tearing down customers who did not want to participate in his raid-end-game, deliberately setting customers against each other over playstyle preference, (raid or die), the culture of the game was set in stone.

If you had experienced the realm community that existed in DAoC, or even in LotRO, you would understand why the WoW gear-centric design can be so offensive.

That is also the community feel that I know a lot of GW1 players mention.

Back to you:

Gear progressive play is something that I understand a lot of players enjoy. As a hardcore player, I understand the desire for improvement / progression.

Gear progression DOES exist in this game in fractals. My guild is currently 4-manning them and have reached level 10. Progression there is “infinite”. It is, however, designed for 5-man teams, not large raids.

There are plenty of other games available that provide gear progressive gameplay for large guilds. Games that incorporate the EQ2-WoW-RIFT style instanced raids.

If you can’t understand what GW2 has to offer or enjoy it, then perhaps another game would be a better fit.

Good luck wherever your gaming takes you.

SolidTx.3249:

Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

Let me ask you an honest question. By the same token, when you get max gear in WoW what is there to do? Honestly, I can’t figure it out. WoW has no gear progression either.

SolidTx.3249:

Quick background:

- Run a fairly large guild that moved from WoW (5 years) to SWTOR (ran out of things to do) and came here to GW2. About 250 strong and everyone loved Gw2 in the beginning. We all participated in the beta and upon release dedicated ourselves to the game in earnest.

- As the bulk of our members reached 80, got map completion and filled themselves out with the best Exotic gear there was to have we focused on WvW and running dungeons to get the gear (look) we wanted.

- All of this probably feels very familiar to many of you. Except soon after the bulk of our members started to get bored – primarily because there wasn’t anything left for them to “continue progressing” their character. Sure some leveled alts but most of us are hardcore players and like to dedicate to one charatcer. Others continued to focus on WvW but even that didn’t provide any rewards that made their characters better. A fewer number completed their legendaries and today there’s only a handful left playing GW2. Sure theres the notion of playig the game because its fun. And GW2 is that, it is fun. But many of us need to feel like we are accomplishing something. Call it vanity too, but we also want to feel and look special…and Gw’s lack of gear progression makes us sad.

- We’re still together as a guild but scattered across Marvel Heroes beta, Neverwinter beta , Secret World, Planetside and other games that we have fun with, but like a tribe we are scattered and want to find a home..As the leader I feel like GW2 is the best MMO I’ve played for many reasons and should be that home. I love the game and it has so much potential. But alas, it has yet to be that for us.

- But without the trappings of end game my guild and even myself feel like GW2 is a game thats easy to forget, to stop playing. I log into the game and look at my guardian and feel like playing won’t give me anything to show for my time.

- We want raiding or at the least scalable dungeons that reward loot that makes our characters better. We NEED gear progression. Sure the Ascended system is a step in the right direction (Kinda) but its really not what we need; its too limited. We need a true scalable gear progression system that rewards dedication and achievement. The fractals are interesting but we need more.

- Will GW2 ever be a destination we can call home? Like we did in EQ and WoW for so many years. We loved our time there and after numerous years moved on for good reasons. We wanted GW2 to be our new home, but it’s not, and I guess it wont be until Arena decides that it will give hardcore players something to do.

We love the game. I love the game. I just wish it would provide end game.

thanks for listening.
Cheers

stay classy san diego

This is exactly how I feel. Alot of the gw2 community is so against this “gear progression” idea that whenever you bring it up they rudely tell you this is not the game for you or GW2 was not made to be this way. Honestly, this is a mmorpg and gear progression is basically the backbone of mmorpgs. I understand the target market for this game is for the casuals, but why is this holding the game from progressing?
Sure, the pretty scenes around the world are enjoyable, the range of gear and looks are very nice… but as the OP stated its truly not enough to keep some players playing and wanting to PROGRESS.
Don’t be mistaken. I too am a student tight on time and only play for a few hours during the week, but once again like the OP, I log on look at my elementalist all ‘maxed out’ and find no real motivation to run that 2hr fotm for a chance at a fractal dagger.

Everyone has their own definition of fun. Some like I, enjoy the gear that reflects time, hardwork and dedication and should be catered for.

Stars.2179:

SolidTx.3249:

Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

Let me ask you an honest question. By the same token, when you get max gear in WoW what is there to do? Honestly, I can’t figure it out. WoW has no gear progression either.

Begining of an expansion

Normal dungeon
Heroic dungeon

Raid 1
lfr gear tier 1
normal gear tier 1
heroic gear tier 1
2 months
Raid 2
Lfg gear upgrade tier 2
normal gear upgrade tier 2
heroic gear upgrade tier 2
2 months
raid 3
lfg gear upgrade tier 3
normal upgrade tier 3
heroic upgrade tier 3
2months

Next patch:

Outdoor raid
(…)
3 months
Farm valor points which has a weekly cap of 1000 to upgrade your gear.

Next patch:

Repeat

Repeat

Repeat.

I’d be happy with more challenging dungeons like FOTM and Arah. I’m okay with gear progression as long as there are many ways to get it.

Poplolita.2638:

Begining of an expansion

Normal dungeon
Heroic dungeon

Raid 1
lfr gear tier 1
normal gear tier 1
heroic gear tier 1
2 months
Raid 2
Lfg gear upgrade tier 2
normal gear upgrade tier 2
heroic gear upgrade tier 2
2 months
raid 3
lfg gear upgrade tier 3
normal upgrade tier 3
heroic upgrade tier 3
2months

Next patch:

Outdoor raid
(…)
3 months
Farm valor points which has a weekly cap of 1000 to upgrade your gear.

Next patch:

Repeat

Repeat

Repeat.

so in essence, you’re simply playing to achieve the top gear, and once that’s done, they release something that makes your current gear obsolete so you have to do it all over again? =/ that’s rather… disheartening.

AtoBoss.2906:

Honestly, this is a mmorpg and gear progression is basically the backbone of mmorpgs.

Not even remotely. Gear progression is what keeps your grinding, it gates content and generates a time sink so players need more time to accomplish something. It’s basically there to keep players busy so they don’t notice that the game they are playing is not really that fun.

Barbelo.5916:

I’d be happy with more challenging dungeons like FOTM and Arah. I’m okay with gear progression as long as there are many ways to get it.

Challenging dungeons do not require gear progression, you can have them without it.

Regardless of what people say, GW2 needs some form of progression system, there’s one in WvW, why not PvE too?

Poplolita.2638:

Stars.2179:

SolidTx.3249:

Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

Let me ask you an honest question. By the same token, when you get max gear in WoW what is there to do? Honestly, I can’t figure it out. WoW has no gear progression either.

Begining of an expansion

Normal dungeon
Heroic dungeon

Raid 1
lfr gear tier 1
normal gear tier 1
heroic gear tier 1
2 months
Raid 2
Lfg gear upgrade tier 2
normal gear upgrade tier 2
heroic gear upgrade tier 2
2 months
raid 3
lfg gear upgrade tier 3
normal upgrade tier 3
heroic upgrade tier 3
2months

Next patch:

Outdoor raid
(…)
3 months
Farm valor points which has a weekly cap of 1000 to upgrade your gear.

Next patch:

Repeat

Repeat

Repeat.

This type of gear progression is a bit extreme… How about a certain weapon that only drops from a certain boss, lets say Jade Maw, and has a slight stat boost?

SolidTx.3249:

- All of this probably feels very familiar to many of you. Except soon after the bulk of our members started to get bored – primarily because there wasn’t anything left for them to “continue progressing” their character. Sure some leveled alts but most of us are hardcore players and like to dedicate to one charatcer. Others continued to focus on WvW but even that didn’t provide any rewards that made their characters better. A fewer number completed their legendaries and today there’s only a handful left playing GW2. Sure theres the notion of playig the game because its fun. And GW2 is that, it is fun. But many of us need to feel like we are accomplishing something. Call it vanity too, but we also want to feel and look special…and Gw’s lack of gear progression makes us sad.

The big issue with gear progression lies in that sentence. You can only feel special by making the vast majority of people feel bad when they see you. People don’t play games to feel bad.

While your 250 man guild may leave the game because they can’t reach indefinite power levels at the expense of the entire playerbase, the other million playing the game will stay because the gear progression is manageable by everyone, and has a clear end point.

I find it refreshing having no classic end game and my gear treadmill being for skins rather than stats. I recently stopped played lotro as its gear treadmill got out of control and now i happily potter in gw2 doing, well anything really. Its surprisingly free when you just immerese yourself.

Would i like raids etc? Not really. I like the outdoor metas better as an idea. They just need tweaking to makke them more interesting mevhanically.

We are conditioned to believe gear treadmills and raids are endgame because thats all we have known. Always good to see a change to this philosophy a d so far it seems to be working. Not that they get everything right mind…cough..guild missions..cough

The funny thing about raids is:
Most raids are actually only really played by 5-7 people per raid while the remainig 18-35 slots could easily be filled by dps- or healbots with no real AI. Most people don’t like raids because of the content, they like it because of the social aspect.

Gear treadmills are an illusion of progression. It’s nothing but simple numerical values becoming bigger. It is lazy design that has some quite severe drawbacks. I’d actually say for the most part its regression as opposed to progression. If you can keep up with the max tier at the time you stay at the same relative power difference with mobs. However, if you have higher real world responsibilities you actually become progressively weaker over time.

OP: if you have been playing since the betas surely you should know that GW2 was never supposed to have gear progression as you describe it?
The addition of ascended gear in Nov and the absolute kitten storm it caused should tell you this.

The idea that you need better and better gear to progress or show how good you are is an idea that many many of the GW2 player base came to this game to get away from, that will not change.

Anet may choose to add more gear tiers in the future but I predict that the juice will not be worth the squeeze for them to do that because it will alienate the players that remained after the Nov fiasco.

You say you can’t see what to do at max level without gear progression?
That is another mindset carried over from years of playing traditional MMO’s it has no place in GW2.

Unless you can come to terms with the game for what it is, you will never enjoy it- in which case you and your guild will be far better off finding a game that does meet your needs.
GW2 Meets the needs of many players just as it is, that is why we play

What you do is match what you and your guild like to do with the game you play. If the game doesn’t match what you like to do, you find a game that does.

While you and yours thrive on the gear progression treadmill, others just throw their hands in the air and say forget it, its never ending.

SolidTx.3249:

May I ask – what is the disdain for gear progression?

Because every other MMO has it. This game specifically does not. As a married 31yr old I don’t have the time to lead a guild or even rep one that requires weekly raid nights and nightly dungeon runs. I just don’t have the time nor the inclination to design my life and schedule around a game that I simply find fun.

To have gear progression means that is your goal, at all times. Your goal is simply to gear up. The goal is never to enjoy yourself…it’s to get the next tier of gear. To be on the forefront of that means running raids & dungeons constantly, min/maxing your characters, getting bounced from groups because you aren’t elite, etc. Gear progression fosters a type of gaming community with a single-minded focus on getting better gear. And unfortunately, that focus often is to the detriment of fun and casual playing.

My computer crashed in early December. Then we bought a house. I didn’t get my computer fixed until March. 3+ months without playing GW2 and you know what I missed? Wintersday. That’s it…a single holiday event that didn’t leave me behind in any kind of way. I logged in and just picked up where I left off, not feeling like I had lost 3 months of valuable gear progression grind.

The point of GW2 is to have fun (as it should be for all games, though sadly isn’t). As such, Anet made PvP & WvW available at level 2. They unlocked dungeons progressively as you level. Your characters auto-scale to match the zone, so the entirety of Tyria is always relevant. They tried to maximize the fun from start to finish. Unfortunately for you (and all players who crave gear progression) the finish line just looks different to you.

Looks like the cargo cult of game design is out in full swing in this thread. Gear grind bad. Trinity bad. Large group content bad. So sayeth a manifesto from years ago!

I’ve yet to see the grand developer vision in action in providing a revolutionary alternative to the status quo.

RebelYell.7132:

Looks like the cargo cult of game design is out in full swing in this thread. Gear grind bad. Trinity bad. Large group content bad. So sayeth a manifesto from years ago!

I’ve yet to see the grand developer vision in action in providing a revolutionary alternative to the status quo.

That is ironic because I very much see it in action- it is called GW2 and yes, it is kind of revolutionary when you look at the status quo of gear progression, raids, and trinity.

nevermind kill stealing, loot stealing and ganking.
My word it is very much a revolution :P

Morrigan.2809:

RebelYell.7132:

Looks like the cargo cult of game design is out in full swing in this thread. Gear grind bad. Trinity bad. Large group content bad. So sayeth a manifesto from years ago!

I’ve yet to see the grand developer vision in action in providing a revolutionary alternative to the status quo.

That is ironic because I very much see it in action- it is called GW2 and yes, it is kind of revolutionary when you look at the status quo of gear progression, raids, and trinity.

As far as I can tell, the Emperor is naked.

SolidTx.3249:

I am, admittedly, a bit surprised. I never realized that gear progression could be viewed so negatively. I see how you are looking at it – but hopefully you can respect another point of view.

We think of gear progression as a good thing. I guess the difference then comes down to a capitalistic vs communistic game design philosophy. Said differently some want a game that reward their players with better possessions and items based on their achievements, hard work, dedication and comittment.

The same game, I guess, can be seen as elitist, requiring it players to work in order to get something that people feel should be communal and given to all freely.

And I don’t see GW2 at lvl 80 as a sandbox.. Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

It’s not that people want new gear to be given freely to everyone with no work required. It’s that they don’t think there should be new gear at all.

Once you get to level 80 and kit your character out with a full set of level 80 gear that should be the end of it. Not just another step in an endless process of chasing the next tier. Otherwise you have to devote all/most your time to that process and rarely get to actually play the content you’re supposedly getting this gear for.

RebelYell.7132:

Morrigan.2809:

RebelYell.7132:

Looks like the cargo cult of game design is out in full swing in this thread. Gear grind bad. Trinity bad. Large group content bad. So sayeth a manifesto from years ago!

I’ve yet to see the grand developer vision in action in providing a revolutionary alternative to the status quo.

That is ironic because I very much see it in action- it is called GW2 and yes, it is kind of revolutionary when you look at the status quo of gear progression, raids, and trinity.

As far as I can tell, the Emperor is naked.

And you are entirely entitled to this opinion.
So are the people who like the game as it is.

My point was that there are many games who cater to the needs of the OP- GW2 is the alternative for people who don’t like that kind of gameplay for whatever reasons.
This certainly does make GW2 kind of unique.

You have only to look at MMO’s coming out now to see just how much this game has influenced the genre in a very short while.

Morrigan.2809:

RebelYell.7132:

Looks like the cargo cult of game design is out in full swing in this thread. Gear grind bad. Trinity bad. Large group content bad. So sayeth a manifesto from years ago!

I’ve yet to see the grand developer vision in action in providing a revolutionary alternative to the status quo.

That is ironic because I very much see it in action- it is called GW2 and yes, it is kind of revolutionary when you look at the status quo of gear progression, raids, and trinity.

Sorry but thats a load lol, GW2 has broken nearly everyting about that silly vaunted manifesto. Also, GW2 did show straying from the Trinity is a horrible idea, but that sidewise gear progression can work in an MMO imo.

Vayne.8563:

In Guild Wars 2, when ascended gear was introduced, a decent portion of the population actually walked away from Guild Wars 2. I don’t think Anet is willing to open this can of worms again.

That would pretty describe my situation. The introduction of gear progression, making it only available through grinding the new dungeon, and the general karka special event fiasco in Southsun Cove made me walk away from the game for about 3 months in complete disgust. It made me actually willing to try another SOE MMO, which is a statement.

The Laurell system has helped. Guild missions are also helping. Yet people at still more than a little jumpy on the Ascended subject and I shudder to think about what will happen when Ascended weapons and armor are introduced.

Ascended gear showed that Arenanet isn’t really thinking outside the box at all in terms of gear, just that they didn’t launch with tiered gear.

There are some good examples of alternate advancement systems that encourage people into high end content, like Realm Ranks from Dark Age of Camelot, or Incarnate Enhancements from City of Heroes, that didn’t force people to participate in content that wasn’t fun, or made their existing gear obsolete. Ascended gear was a big step backwards compared to those.

Gear Progression: It’s almost like an addiction, you dont know why you’re doing it, but it feels fun when you do it. When you understand that it’s only a carrot on a stick, to normally make you pay a sub too and keep you addict to that feeling a bit longer, you try to get over it and find the real reason you’re playing the game.

In all those other games, they could have kept the same stats, just add more challenges/dungeons/raids. They didn’t, to make you feel more powerful (and keep you paying), yet they boost the enemy too so it’s all the same in the end.

Now I’m playing this game, no sub fee, no pressure, just for the Fun of it. Real Fun, not an addictive type. Now my fun may not be the fun of all, but make sure you really have fun playing and not chasing a carrot that surely doesn’t even taste that good.

Just my 2 cents

Aeonblade.8709:

Morrigan.2809:

Aeonblade.8709:

Morrigan.2809:

^ what happened there? ^ I never said half of that lol

It’s been fixed. And yea, the manifesto thing is a joke, best let that slide on by lol.

The manifesto gets bandied about by both sides on this forum.
It is incidentally why I bought the game and I got exactly what I expected.
I haven’t been disappointed, I haven’t been “betrayed”, I got precisely what I wanted from a game.

Sorry you don’t feel that way.
I didn’t bring up the manifesto.

As for GW2, it is what it is and either you like it or you don’t.
There is a whole world of games out there to try, it blows my mind that if people don’t like something they don’t go try something else.
Not all people in the world like ice cream, the universe is not going to implode because of it- eat a cookie instead :P

Sorry, I wasn’t saying I didn’t believe in the manifesto…In fact I’m just gonna shut up. It’s too early for me to talk apparently. I meant I liked pretty much everything they did with GW2 except the lack of trinity, but I don’t think having trinity would work with GW2, so that is fine with me

hehe I seem to be in the same boat today – I’ll take your example and have some coffee instead

Panhauramix.2784:

Gear Progression: It’s almost like an addiction, you dont know why you’re doing it, but it feels fun when you do it. When you understand that it’s only a carrot on a stick, to normally make you pay a sub too and keep you addict to that feeling a bit longer, you try to get over it and find the real reason you’re playing the game.

In all those other games, they could have kept the same stats, just add more challenges/dungeons/raids. They didn’t, to make you feel more powerful (and keep you paying), yet they boost the enemy too so it’s all the same in the end.

Now I’m playing this game, no sub fee, no pressure, just for the Fun of it. Real Fun, not an addictive type. Now my fun may not be the fun of all, but make sure you really have fun playing and not chasing a carrot that surely doesn’t even taste that good.

Just my 2 cents

The game you’re indirectly referencing there hasn’t had progression raiding since Burning Crusade. WotLK came out in 2008. That flaw (which some may feel was not a flaw, but I’ll grant that conceit) was fixed long before the manifesto came out.

where does idea that having better gear means you are better, come from? go learn to play. this is the progression gw2 offers.

Without arguing the merits of gear progression one way or the other, I want to point out that the folks that want gear progression have lots of choices of games they could play. The folks that don’t find it that appealing have very few choices. That’s why folks get worked up when it is suggested that the game be changed to suit a different play style.

Adding a gear treadmill into the game is not something that the folks that don’t want to do it can just ignore like say jumping puzzles. The folks that don’t keep their gear up to date will get stomped in WvW, precluded from doing content challenging enough to need the new gear, won’t be able to get better than bronze contribution in group events, etc. because no amount of skill will make up for the power added by the gear if the gear is worth working toward.

I think Diablo II actually handled the folks that wanted endless progression really well with the ladder system that reset every so often. It gave folks a reason to start a fresh character and do it all over again. I found that a much better solution than endless raising of the level cap and gear going from ascended, to legendary, to godlike, to better than godlike….

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

where does idea that having better gear means you are better, come from? go learn to play. this is the progression gw2 offers.

Dark Souls is primarily about learning encounters, and learning to play them well, yet it still manages to have desirable gear that compliments your playstyle.

RebelYell.7132:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

where does idea that having better gear means you are better, come from? go learn to play. this is the progression gw2 offers.

Dark Souls is primarily about learning encounters, and learning to play them well, yet it still manages to have desirable gear that compliments your playstyle.

what is dark soul? are we talking about the same thing here?

SolidTx.3249:

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

My post was not intended to offend nor create or stir up contentious subject matters. As the title says – an honest question.

May I ask – what is the disdain for gear progression?

Because gear progression is associated with WoW’s ‘Keep you playing forever by making content time consuming instead of fun’ style of monetization system. We want ANet to add things that are fun in to the game, not just time consuming and difficult to obtain.

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

RebelYell.7132:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

where does idea that having better gear means you are better, come from? go learn to play. this is the progression gw2 offers.

Dark Souls is primarily about learning encounters, and learning to play them well, yet it still manages to have desirable gear that compliments your playstyle.

what is dark soul? are we talking about the same thing here?

…are we really in this much of a vacuum here? Sigh.

RebelYell.7132:

Dark Souls is primarily about learning encounters, and learning to play them well, yet it still manages to have desirable gear that compliments your playstyle.

Wow, there is a Dark Souls MMORPG?! Where can I get it?

RebelYell.7132:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

RebelYell.7132:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

where does idea that having better gear means you are better, come from? go learn to play. this is the progression gw2 offers.

Dark Souls is primarily about learning encounters, and learning to play them well, yet it still manages to have desirable gear that compliments your playstyle.

what is dark soul? are we talking about the same thing here?

…are we really in this much of a vacuum here? Sigh.

Well it’s not like Dark Souls was a popular game, even if it was fun lol. I can understand someone not knowing what it is.